SNEAKO - SNEAKO Gets Emotional Reflecting On His Life During Therapy

00:00:00.000 I talked to somebody, two kids in Gaza recently, 16, 14 years old, and seeing the mental strength

00:00:04.620 they had. Going through, you know, no school, been at war for two years, constantly evacuating

00:00:08.620 their homes, and they're still this mentally strong and not losing their minds. It's like,

00:00:12.000 I think that more people should not give into, and they say this term, validate their feelings

00:00:16.780 so much. Hopefully this isn't glazing too much. I think you have some serious profit energy. Like,

00:00:21.840 you really do. I've talked to someone recently who went to therapy, and their problems were

00:00:25.820 just so minuscule. You were really gonna kill yourself, and your parents are still around?

00:00:30.040 Like, what's wrong with you? Would you say that when people judged you in this way that it hurt?

00:00:44.220 How are you? Uh, not too bad. Not too bad. It's been, what has it been, like two years since I spoke to

00:00:49.920 you? Has it been two years? It's been a while, yeah. I think it's been something like that,

00:00:55.540 at least a year and a half, a year and some change. Okay. Um, give me one second. Let me see

00:01:01.940 if I can... There we go. Chad, is everything good? Everything sound good? Yeah, my, well,

00:01:08.700 not my apologies, but unfortunately you can't be on Twitch because of me, but that happens.

00:01:15.640 Yeah, I think it's all good. Like I said, I'm more interested in the conversation and just

00:01:19.300 catching up than the views, bro. I love to hear that, man. I'm sick of the,

00:01:24.960 I'm sick of the views, too. I'm getting sick of the social media world. I mean, I'm gonna be here

00:01:29.640 for a while, but it's just, you know, getting sick of it. What about you? What's new with you, Dr. K?

00:01:34.580 Uh, not much, man. Um, I, I, uh, was on vacation for a little bit. Just got back.

00:01:40.440 Lucky God, man. Where'd you go?

00:01:43.020 I went to, uh, Switzerland and France.

00:01:45.020 Okay. All right. Super cool. Do you speak French? Uh,

00:01:49.360 je parle français un peu. No, no, I do not speak French.

00:01:52.720 Rien français. Do you speak French? Oui, je parle français parce que mon père

00:01:56.260 vient d'Haïti. I speak French because my dad's from Haiti, so. Oh, interesting. Cool.

00:02:00.360 Yeah. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't realize you were half Haitian.

00:02:02.700 Yeah, yeah. What'd you think I was? I, I don't know. Did you have, did you have a guess?

00:02:10.380 Mm-mm. I mean, you're, you're American? Yeah, I was born in New York City. I'm an American,

00:02:16.680 no matter what, uh, you know, some, some of the, the far right people are saying I should

00:02:20.960 be deported and stuff, but I, I'm an American. So I, I noticed we're both smiling a lot.

00:02:27.160 I, I know it's just, I, I'm, I'm, I'm happy to talk to you again. It's been a long time.

00:02:33.020 I, I know. I'm happy to talk to you too. Oh, hold on a second. Oh, I don't know who that is.

00:02:38.380 I wonder if I should answer. I think I'm not going to answer. Um, I got a phone call, but.

00:02:43.680 Was that Mossad? Yes. How you been? I'm good. You know, I'm, I'm fantastic.

00:02:48.180 I have been craving a vacation. It seems like, uh, was that refreshing? Was it good? I still haven't

00:02:52.800 taken a vacation. Yeah. When was the last time you took a vacation?

00:02:58.140 Well, so it's hard to tell. I mean, I've taken a lot of trips in the past several years, but

00:03:01.560 strictly like, I'm just going to relax vacation. I can't remember.

00:03:07.960 Yeah. So how long have you been making content?

00:03:11.980 2000. I mean, technically 2011, but I would say I started my, my personal YouTube channel 2013.

00:03:18.320 So, okay. So you've been making content for a long time. And have you not had a vacation in that

00:03:22.200 amount of time? No, I mean, no, no, no, no. Since then, since then. Yeah. But I mean,

00:03:27.700 like, since I really started, so I started streaming three years ago, I was making videos

00:03:30.860 before that. Okay. And just so we're crystal clear, like, so I know that you're not a huge

00:03:36.020 believer in psychiatry. I'm a psychiatrist. This is not therapy, right? We're on the same page

00:03:39.600 there. I'm on the same page about it. I still don't believe in therapy. And I know that this is

00:03:42.620 not licensed clinical practice. This is a stream where I'm speaking with a therapist. So legally,

00:03:47.800 you're all good. I'm not going to sue you if I do. Thank you so much, man. Weight off my chest.

00:03:54.560 I'm not going to. Yeah. So, so what do you, what do you want to, are we, we're just catching up,

00:03:58.820 right? Sounds good. I mean, you told me some things. Should I bring that up? You said something

00:04:03.780 to me in this way. So you said you're going through a midlife crisis and I told you, so am I,

00:04:08.320 you know, I'm 26. I'm getting up there. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I, I think I said, I sort of went

00:04:14.720 through one. I think I'm on the other side. Um, but yeah, I, I think I, I mentioned a little bit

00:04:20.880 before, but yeah. So do you want to tell me, can you just catch me up a little bit? We can

00:04:24.580 absolutely talk about that. Um, I'd love to talk about it. Um, can you catch me up a little bit

00:04:28.640 though? So we spoke a couple of years ago. Has it been two years? I think, I think it was either

00:04:33.400 early 24 or late 23. Okay. And, and so can you just catch me up what you've been up to since then?

00:04:39.240 It's been, uh, there's a lot, there's a lot to say. I fought a UFC champion and I got like,

00:04:55.460 like in the ring. Yeah. I got, that was a big one. And then I think, you know, it's funny. Last

00:05:04.100 time I spoke to you, I think I spoke about the importance of fighting and I didn't speak about

00:05:08.280 stuff like that. So that happened. I think it was a couple months later and yeah, well,

00:05:16.540 it was funny because, I mean, it was fine. It was good. And after the, after the fight,

00:05:21.200 you know, it was UFC champion, very, you know, a lot heavier than me, obviously more experienced

00:05:24.680 than me. And he said, he, he tried to knock me out, could have knocked me out. And then,

00:05:28.580 you know, people intervened and then the fight was over. So I think I got respect for that,

00:05:33.240 for not, you know, for, for staying in there and not wimping out. But then the guy ended

00:05:38.500 up, the guy's a little bit cuckoo. So, um, he was stuck, you know, he's still talking shit.

00:05:43.460 This besides the point, I think most people understand my perspective and, you know, but

00:05:47.460 your perspective was that, you know, well, he, so people keep saying, people keep saying

00:05:54.240 like, okay, you asked him, you asked to spar him like, Oh, these influencers, they talk so much

00:05:58.600 shit. I never talked shit about the guy. I went up to him. I said, Hey, nice to meet you.

00:06:02.040 Congratulations on being the champ. And then he asked me to, he said, let's spar. And then,

00:06:05.580 okay, sure. And the next day we sparred, tried to knock me out. He said he couldn't shook hands

00:06:10.140 left and then continued to talk crap online, which is ironic because that's the whole reason

00:06:14.200 you want to fight an influencer because they talk shit online. So kind of flipped the script.

00:06:17.320 Then afterwards, I would say the most, the secondary major thing was started streaming on party.

00:06:23.040 And then I worked with yay, um, Kanye West for five weeks in Spain. I was living with him in Spain for

00:06:30.040 over a month and working closely with him. And that was a dream come true. And, you know,

00:06:35.840 working with my favorite artists of all time and having like a close relationship. That was

00:06:41.440 pretty, that was a big experience. And then now I'm here.

00:06:46.840 And where's here? If that's not doxing you back in New York city, I moved back to New York at the

00:06:52.680 end of last year. It's been almost a year back in New York. This is where I was born.

00:06:56.300 And I moved to Miami for two years after the last time I spoke to you, I was in Miami.

00:07:01.880 I moved to Miami, like at the end of 2022, when I thought my, when I was getting more famous and

00:07:05.800 my safety was at risk and needed to get a gun, wanted to pay less taxes, get away from, you know,

00:07:10.520 COVID New York X or post COVID New York. And then I came back back here and I still go back to Miami.

00:07:16.320 So I got my place there, but back in New York, making my vlogs again, you know, doing what I

00:07:21.480 originally started doing these videos. Yeah. What do you vlog about? Everything. Is it okay

00:07:26.740 if I ask you these questions? Yeah, sure. Like you can ask me. I want to figure out about your

00:07:30.660 midlife crisis. Once I get you up to speed with my life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can absolutely

00:07:35.200 talk about my midlife crisis. Um, yeah. What do you vlog about? My vlogs are, I think the centered

00:07:41.960 mainly around New York city, interacting with people, things that I'm thinking about current events,

00:07:46.880 politics, funny things, talking to strangers, doing interviews, you know, sometimes they're

00:07:51.420 motivational. Sometimes they're focused on God. Sometimes they're debate oriented and a lot of

00:07:58.060 it's really personal. So, and I would say heavily edited. Sometimes it's drawing. It's just, you

00:08:03.580 know, it's a expression of everything that I think and like.

00:08:09.560 Cool. That sounds great. And so I think last time we talked, you had mentioned that, I don't

00:08:14.100 know if you have always been, you're, you're talking, when you talk about God, you're Muslim.

00:08:18.920 Yes. And, and have you had, I don't know if you had been to Hajj for the first time or

00:08:25.540 are you Muslim like that? Are you? No, I'm, I'm basically Hindu. Okay. And yeah, I haven't

00:08:33.240 been to the enemies. No, it's fine. It's fine. They might make some jokes, but, um, my, my editor's

00:08:39.580 can do. Anyway, I, I've been to Mecca three, three, four times, but not Hajj yet. Okay. Wow.

00:08:46.800 Okay. And how long have you been Muslim? Two and a half years. Okay. Oh, so you've been to Mecca

00:08:53.520 three times in two and a half years? Yeah. I think three or four times. Wow. That's a lot. Yeah.

00:08:59.120 Quite a bit. Yeah. What I, and I remember you saying that it was like a, a really, um,

00:09:05.640 meaningful experience for you. Yeah. Have you been to the Taj Mahal? I have. Is that

00:09:12.940 like the Mecca for, for Hindus, for Hinduism? No, man. So the, the, the Taj Mahal was, was

00:09:19.680 built by Muslims. I knew that. So it was, I knew, I knew that. Oh my God. As soon as he

00:09:25.860 said, yes, the architecture is built. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's all good. So, so it was, it was

00:09:30.700 built by, um, India has a history of getting colonized by various people. So there were,

00:09:36.960 um, there were basically around 1200 CE people from the Northwest started attacking India.

00:09:47.580 Yeah. And then, uh, the Mughals, I think around 1500 to 1600, I'm a bit rusty on, on the, I think

00:09:55.760 closer to 1600, they kind of invaded. And I don't remember, I think it was Aurangzeb's

00:10:00.960 dad. I forget his name who built the Taj Mahal. So where's the, is there a pilgrimage for, for

00:10:07.000 Hindus? There are tons of pilgrimages, but we don't have, uh, Hinduism in that way is a

00:10:12.800 pretty like decentralized religion. There's a lot of different paths. Um, there isn't like

00:10:18.440 one site of pilgrimage. Oh, I know Vancouver, Toronto, maybe there's a bunch, a bunch, a

00:10:27.000 bunch of Indian people in Canada. And there, there's some, uh, there's some pretty, like,

00:10:32.280 uh, there's some growing anti-Indian sentiment in Canada. I've seen that. I've seen that.

00:10:37.580 Yeah. So what do you, what, what have you been up to? What are your major life events

00:10:41.000 since the last time we spoke? Yeah. So it's funny. Yeah. You know, we were talking about midlife

00:10:47.040 crisis for a second. So I think I sort of probably hit it around that time and maybe

00:10:51.340 my conversation with you triggered my, no. So, um, yeah, so I, I think, you know, if

00:10:57.380 we spoke at the end of, let's say 2023, early 2024, you know, so, so my thing was like, I

00:11:03.740 was working in Boston, um, was sort of like had an academic career. So that means I was

00:11:09.560 faculty and was teaching a lot and then, you know, had a job, had a private practice. And

00:11:15.620 then I started kind of healthy gamer on the side and it was never supposed to be a thing.

00:11:19.400 And so I started streaming on Twitch and then it grew a lot during the pandemic. And then,

00:11:24.760 so I think for a couple of years, my life was sort of like responding to the immediacy of

00:11:33.280 my circumstances. So once we started growing a lot, it's like, okay, we hired our first employee

00:11:39.220 in April of 2020. Um, and, and so then like, you know, so we needed the one person then,

00:11:46.040 and we needed another person and then we needed another person. And, and so we kind of grew and

00:11:50.520 we started developing, like, I was kind of noticing that streaming and educating people

00:11:55.060 on the internet only goes so far. So I developed a coaching program that I thought would like

00:11:59.900 help people with the problems that I was seeing and addressed a lot of the shortcomings that

00:12:05.880 I think exist in therapy. So built that one second. Yeah.

00:12:12.380 What the fuck?

00:12:13.980 I'm working. Yeah.

00:12:17.300 Hey.

00:12:18.100 Can you close the door? Thank you.

00:12:21.940 They're, they're usually, um, pretty good about, uh, they, I don't usually work at this

00:12:25.520 hour. So they're, you know, I think it's fair game. Um, so, and so then for a couple of years,

00:12:32.420 it was just sort of like responding to round, maybe around 2023, I found myself like in a

00:12:45.760 position that I never expected to be in and was also trying to think a little bit about

00:12:50.400 like what I wanted. So suddenly like was, you know, had the burden of, of running a company,

00:12:58.280 um, you know, grew a lot in terms of like brand and, and, and fame and all that started getting

00:13:05.760 recognized very frequently on the street.

00:13:08.040 If I could somewhere, did you stop being academic and you became a content creator?

00:13:13.140 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so I, I left my academic position maybe in 2021. Um, so was teaching as

00:13:20.960 an adjunct for a little while and then healthy gamer just basically picked up quite a bit.

00:13:25.520 So became a full-time job. I still have a small clinical practice because I just don't

00:13:29.620 want to let go of that. I really enjoy doing clinical work. Um, and then, but then it was

00:13:36.140 sort of like, or wrote a book that went well, but then I was like, hold on a second. This

00:13:41.040 was not, I never intended to be here. So then started thinking a little bit about what am

00:13:48.400 I doing? What do I want to accomplish? Um, you know, thought a lot about financial stuff

00:13:55.660 too. And in terms of like walked away from a pretty lucrative career and then was trying

00:14:00.800 to think about, you know, what do I, what do I want to do there? So I was just trying

00:14:04.120 to think, huh?

00:14:05.260 You're thinking what now?

00:14:07.220 Yeah. So I was kind of thinking like, what do I want the remainder of my life to be?

00:14:10.760 Um, because I was, I was actually quite unhappy, um, with a lot of just the way that like things

00:14:18.960 grow, right? So they like mutate and expand and you have all these like opportunities and

00:14:23.340 stuff. And I, it's not that I'm not grateful. I think it's amazing stuff. Um, but I sort of

00:14:28.100 found myself being pulled in a lot of different directions without having a whole lot of, on

00:14:32.800 the one hand, I have a ton of autonomy, but on the other hand, it's like, okay, there's this

00:14:36.080 opportunity. So then we're doing this and then this opportunity, and then we're doing

00:14:39.600 this. Um, and so just like thinking through all that stuff and it's like, hold on a second.

00:14:43.960 What, what did we really show up here to do? What do I want to do? What's my dharma? That's

00:14:48.280 the Sanskrit word for duty. So what's my dharma? Um, and then I think for a long time, I was

00:14:54.600 also spiritually coasting. So I did a lot of intense spiritual practice between the ages

00:15:00.120 of about 21 to 28. And then when I started medical school, then for a period of about 10

00:15:07.300 years, um, basically devoted a lot of energy to understanding medicine and understanding

00:15:15.640 psychology, understanding neuroscience. And in that, in that time, so I haven't been to India in

00:15:20.840 like over 10 years, but I used to go every year. And so sort of, uh, sort of, so, I mean, I, I hope

00:15:28.760 to go back soon, but I, I think I, I sort of was like, I had sort of done my own spiritual

00:15:34.000 development, but it wasn't the priority over the last 10 years. It was like, okay, I

00:15:38.580 have the opportunity to train at a really great institution. I have lots of great teachers.

00:15:42.980 So I'm going to like learn this as well as I can. And then there was a lot of, um, you

00:15:49.880 know, exploration and growth and development in terms of entrepreneurship. I've worked a

00:15:54.160 lot with entrepreneurs, founders that started around 2017. Um, and so worked a lot as like

00:16:01.700 a psychiatrist and a coach to help people who are like co-founders and, and entrepreneurs

00:16:07.360 and things like that, CEOs, C-suite executives. But then to be in the, in the role myself was,

00:16:12.340 uh, eyeopening and, and educating experience. Um, and so then it's sort of like, okay, what

00:16:19.200 do I want to do with the rest of my life? And so decided on a couple of things, spent a lot

00:16:24.620 of time by myself, which I think really helps me a lot, spent a lot of time, uh, re-engaging

00:16:29.540 and spiritual practice. And now I feel pretty good. So there's no midlife crisis. You're

00:16:35.240 fine. No, there was a midlife crisis, but a midlife crisis, I think is a developmentally

00:16:41.440 up. I think we don't appreciate how common they are and how they're also developmentally

00:16:48.120 appropriate. I think a midlife crisis is when you trade in your Toyota for a mid sports

00:16:54.400 car and you get divorced and then you start dating a girl who's like 10 years younger

00:16:59.520 and you go to a Coldplay concert.

00:17:04.020 I think that that's, and then you end up on, on the, the, the big screen.

00:17:08.380 You have an affair and then you get fired that that midlife crisis is cheating on your spouse

00:17:15.260 and getting a new, in a new hobby and hanging out at younger bars.

00:17:21.380 I think that, you know, the, the, I, I would, I think that that is certainly an identity crisis

00:17:26.760 of some sort. I think we sort of characterize that as a midlife crisis. I think many, many,

00:17:31.420 many people, it's hard for me to say men versus women, but I think most of the midlife crises

00:17:38.060 that I've gone, uh, that I've helped people through happen to, uh, like that I've, I've

00:17:44.620 assisted people with. I think that just the numbers have been mostly men. Right. So, and

00:17:51.240 I think that, you know, the, the textbook midlife crisis that you, you cited was also a dude,

00:17:55.760 right? Yeah. Um, and so I think it's for women. That's just menopause. Um, I don't think

00:18:03.900 so. So I, I think there's a false equivalency there. So I absolutely believe that menopause,

00:18:08.040 is a very serious time to take stock and maybe women go through something else helps a ton

00:18:14.080 of women through menopause. But I think that the psychological load is different. I wouldn't

00:18:21.080 say that they're one-to-one, but I, I think a lot of men go through midlife crises that

00:18:26.460 don't manifest the way that you described, right? That's sort of the classic one. And that's

00:18:32.080 a midlife crisis. That's the other thing. I think that's a midlife crisis gone wrong. So

00:18:36.240 when you don't navigate a midlife crisis, I think the roots are very similar. So you kind of like

00:18:41.200 wake up one day and you're in this life that you maybe didn't want, didn't intend. You realize that

00:18:47.060 you've made a lot of sacrifices. You realize that there's a lot of stuff that you maybe have,

00:18:51.840 uh, you sacrificed a lot of what you wanted for the sake of other things. And then you kind of

00:18:57.000 wake up and you're like, hold on a second. My life is, you know, time is passing me by.

00:19:02.660 I'm missing out on stuff. And then, you know, I mean, half of what you said, you started with

00:19:08.440 divorce there, right? In your example. That's part of it. Yeah. That's part of it. So I think

00:19:14.820 a lot of that can be just a reaction to the divorce and that can have completely different

00:19:19.280 roots. It's not, you know, it's unnecessary, but I'm just, you know, I'm kind of joking around

00:19:23.920 about some of the components. Yeah. Yeah. No, but I, I, I mean, I, I totally get that you're joking

00:19:28.640 about it, but I think there's also a lot of truth to it, right? I mean, that does happen

00:19:32.220 and it's a trope that people are really familiar with. Yeah. Is that sufficiently? I'm 42.

00:19:41.680 Yeah. So that's around the age. So then what, what, what's, uh, and how does that make you

00:19:45.740 feel? How does what make me feel? Being 42. Fine. Oh, so you, see, where's the crisis? You're

00:19:55.640 good. Yeah, I'm good now. I navigated it. It's over. Oh, good job. Yeah. Yeah. I kind

00:20:03.400 of recent, you know, like I'll, I'll give you like an example, right? So this is going

00:20:08.940 to sound kind of funny and maybe we'll get a lot of flack for this and things like that.

00:20:12.460 But so, you know, when we started healthy gamer, it was really to help people. And so one

00:20:17.940 of the things that kind of shocked me was we never like designed it to be profit driven.

00:20:24.020 So I'm, I'm doing this company stuff for like five years. It's not designed to be profit

00:20:29.160 driven. We, we really try to price things to be like really accessible. There are people

00:20:33.160 struggling in like the Philippines and India. So we, we really try to price things to be

00:20:37.660 very reasonable. And, um, and then after five years of doing it, I was like, you know, this

00:20:46.340 is arguably a successful company that I'm running and I'm not fabulously wealthy. And then I was

00:20:53.520 like, Oh yeah, that's because we never designed it to make a bunch of money. Um, and so that

00:20:59.740 was one thing that I, that was just one example of something that I had to navigate because

00:21:03.840 I had certain expectations of once you start a company and it becomes arguably quite successful,

00:21:09.920 you're supposed to be rich. But then I remembered, Oh yeah, we never started it to make money,

00:21:14.220 which is why we price things, which is why I'm not rich, which is like totally fine.

00:21:17.580 It sounds like it bothers you a little bit. Huh? It absolutely bothered me a lot for a little

00:21:26.820 while. And then I thought about, okay, what do I really want to do? Do I want to make money or do

00:21:31.660 I want to help people? Like what's at the top of the priority list? And, uh, what's at the top of

00:21:38.720 the priority list? It's a priority. Yeah. Right. So you, you can, you can do both and you know,

00:21:43.980 I do okay. I'm not, I'm totally fine. And I have a responsibility to my children and things like

00:21:48.200 that. So I, I make sufficient money there. Um, but it's like, what's at the top? So that, that,

00:21:54.900 that was sort of the thing is I was doing both sort of right. So I would make one decision that was,

00:21:59.220 um, really thinking about money. And then I would make another decision that was about helping people.

00:22:04.260 And then as you keep on making those kinds of decisions in two different ways,

00:22:07.620 it can create a lot of different confusion. There were also other things that other stupid lessons

00:22:12.660 that I didn't realize, which make perfect sense in retrospect. One is that if you do something for

00:22:17.640 free, the more people you do it for, the more expensive it gets, which is like such common

00:22:25.340 sense now, but you can think about it this way. You can help more people. If you make money from it,

00:22:29.600 it doesn't, they don't need, it doesn't need to be a pyramid. It doesn't, they can coexist. Like

00:22:33.940 you're able to help people if you're more excess, if you're, your time is more available and you have

00:22:38.500 more freedom. Yeah. So, so that's, that's a line of logical thinking that a lot of people will use.

00:22:44.680 I think the problem with that, it is absolutely true and it can be used to justify all kinds of

00:22:50.720 stuff. So every time that an investor approaches us, which happens quite often, like every time

00:22:57.820 they're like, well, if we give you this pile of money, imagine how many more people you could help.

00:23:01.660 That's like, they're what's usually out the gate. The first thing that they'll say, but not you,

00:23:08.620 not me. What you don't, you don't think that way.

00:23:13.480 No, I mean, I think that what you said is true. I think it's just, there's, there's more context to

00:23:17.680 it. I don't think it's as simple as that. I think it's absolutely true that if I had more resources,

00:23:21.740 like if I had 20 to $50 million, I have a very clear idea of what I would do. Um, but I don't have

00:23:28.980 that. So I won't do that. And you're absolutely correct that if you have more resources, you can

00:23:35.740 help more people. Right. I think that's absolutely true. So what do you think was the biggest thing

00:23:41.000 that got you out of the crisis? Um, let me think the biggest thing you said centralizing

00:23:57.780 So I, I think for like, I, I, biggest thing, meaning what did I learn or what did I do or what?

00:24:05.580 So thing is kind of a, what did you do? So I think the biggest thing that I did is got

00:24:12.360 quite hardcore about spiritual practice. And I think that was huge. So if I, if I had to put it on one

00:24:18.600 thing, it was that I started doing very intense spiritual practice for like the first time in

00:24:25.080 uh, 12 years. So it wasn't therapy. It was, it was getting closer to God.

00:24:32.940 Um, I don't know if I would call it getting closer to God, but it certainly wasn't therapy. No.

00:24:38.220 So am I vindicated in a way from our last conversation about what? About how God transcends

00:24:46.540 therapy and psychotherapy. When you say God transcends psychotherapy, what does that mean?

00:24:53.480 Well, okay. So if your biggest problem in, uh, in recent time where your crisis stemmed from,

00:24:58.680 uh, if, if your crisis was solved by something spiritual and God, rather than, you know, what

00:25:06.480 you do, which is therapy, does that not, my argument last time we spoke was that God is

00:25:12.840 transcends therapy and people should seek that rather than run to a therapist.

00:25:20.500 I think that, so what's your understanding of what therapy is for?

00:25:26.820 Therapy is to, I mean, there's a lot of reasons people go.

00:25:31.840 There are a lot of reasons people go. That's not the question that I asked. What is it for?

00:25:36.920 To help people.

00:25:38.980 In what way?

00:25:42.840 Talking about stuff.

00:25:45.680 Okay. So let's, let's let me answer your question. Are you vindicated? I guess, I don't know.

00:25:51.020 But, but I, I think this is a really wonderful question and this is why I love talking. So

00:25:55.400 Sneeko, I mentioned this last time. I think people grossly underestimate how deep of a thinker you are.

00:26:00.380 Um, and I, I think, you know, last time you were like trying to cause shit with me and stuff. I

00:26:05.300 don't know if you remember. I sort of love that. And if you want to go back down there.

00:26:08.180 I knew that that would be good content. Like I put on my wife, Peter. I leaned in, I leaned

00:26:13.060 into the toxically masculine thing.

00:26:14.980 I thought it was great.

00:26:15.400 Yeah, no, it was good.

00:26:16.000 Absolutely. There was, there was a certain, I felt like I was playing a game of mental

00:26:20.760 tennis and I was like hitting balls across the net and you were hitting a back. Um, and

00:26:25.680 I think that's why we were smiling a lot and why it's fun to talk. So I think that, uh,

00:26:30.700 it's really important to remember that psychotherapy, I mean, it started out a particular way, but

00:26:35.160 the way that it's really evolved is to help with pathology, right? So psychotherapy is,

00:26:41.020 I mean, this is debatable and, but I'm going to sort of simplify my answer for a moment.

00:26:48.340 So if we look at medicine, the practice of medicine is to heal, right? So pathology means

00:26:55.060 something that is ill. So the, the most common form of psychotherapy in today's world is to

00:27:03.100 treat an illness. So I think a spiritual crisis in a medical illness are two different things.

00:27:10.320 So if someone has, has a diagnosis of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder or an addiction,

00:27:17.220 there is absolutely an evidence-based psychotherapeutic approach that can help those

00:27:23.680 people. Now, I think one thing that we understand very well, I would say, I would argue that 95%

00:27:30.880 of psychotherapists or more would agree with what I'm about to say that psychotherapy, there's a

00:27:36.100 spiritual dimension that helps people and that psychotherapy, depending on the therapist will

00:27:42.100 lean into that dimension or not lean into that dimension. But I think very few psychotherapists

00:27:47.220 psychotherapists believe that they're a substitute for a spiritual thing, right? So we sort of

00:27:55.280 understand that a lot. And so doing a lot of addiction psychiatry, you know, I would frequently

00:28:00.140 refer my patients to Alcoholics Anonymous, which is also like a spiritual sort of inspired program to

00:28:07.600 help with alcohol addiction. And I think the two complement each other. I don't, I think this sort of

00:28:12.580 idea that like, one is better than the other. I mean, maybe we can talk more about that. Maybe one

00:28:17.740 is better than the other. But I think that the key thing about the problem with spiritual practice

00:28:24.460 to solve problems is that it's quite unreliable. So if, if a thousand people start going to, let's say,

00:28:33.220 church, let's just assume Christianity for a moment, or even going to meditation or start going to

00:28:37.700 their mosque or whatever, right? So if a thousand people are in a particular state in their life,

00:28:44.600 and they start engaging in spiritual practice, in 12 weeks, what percentage of them will be better

00:28:51.280 by how much? And that's a question that I've never heard a good answer to.

00:28:59.040 I don't think you can answer that statistically, because spiritual practice relies so much on yourself.

00:29:05.180 There's too many personal factors. How seriously are you taking it? Are you really opening your heart?

00:29:09.940 Are you really, like you can't measure, belief is almost impossible to measure.

00:29:17.320 I'm not sure if that's true, but so that therein, I think lies the weak, the fundamental weakness of

00:29:22.740 spiritual practice or religious practice, right? So the advantage of medicine is that it is more

00:29:30.640 impervious to individual factors. So if I take a hundred people who are addicted to alcohol and I

00:29:37.420 send them to church and I send them to a therapist, the whole point of psychotherapy is an evidence-based

00:29:42.280 practice is that it reliably gets a certain kind of result. That's how it's designed. That's how it

00:29:48.060 gets improved. Now, can psychotherapy go as far as spiritual practice can? My guess is probably not,

00:29:59.120 but I think the whole advantage of evidence-based medicine is that it's reliable. It's reliably

00:30:04.700 effective. Okay. Well, if we peel back a layer, you said psychotherapy or therapy solves illness,

00:30:11.580 correct? That's what it tries to do. Yeah. My, my issue, my main issue with it is that when everybody

00:30:21.080 thinks they're ill, then everybody requires psychotherapy. And I think nowadays more people

00:30:28.140 think that they're ill, think they're ill than ever because it's so profitable. It's such a profitable

00:30:32.440 industry. I've talked to someone recently who went to therapy and their problems were just so minuscule

00:30:37.740 and they're, they're ranting to me on the phone and explaining it. Like I compare myself to other

00:30:42.480 people on Instagram and TikTok. And it's like, you know, some of like it went into like suicidal

00:30:49.000 ideation. I'm like, just like, and then during the conversation, the parents came in the room and

00:30:53.560 started talking to who was there on the phone. It's like, you were really going to kill yourself

00:30:57.800 and your, your parents are still around. Like, what's wrong with you? And to put it further

00:31:02.620 perspective, I talked to somebody, two kids in Gaza recently, like maybe a week,

00:31:07.640 two weeks ago, 16, 14 years old and seeing the mental strength they had going through,

00:31:12.640 you know, no school, been at war for two years, constantly evacuating their homes. And they're

00:31:16.240 still this mentally strong and not losing their minds. It's like, I think that more people

00:31:22.340 should not give into, and they say this term validate their feelings so much, you know,

00:31:28.640 and I started like pushing back on this person on the phone. They're like, oh, you're invalidating

00:31:31.960 my feelings. I'm like, why are you validating suicidal ideation? Well, you shouldn't validate

00:31:36.380 these thoughts. You should try to be a little more mentally tough. So if everybody thinks

00:31:41.120 they're depressed, thinks they're anxious, have ADHD, thinks they have some sort of mental

00:31:45.340 deficiency, then they're all capable of looking for the cure. And maybe people aren't even sick

00:31:51.620 to begin with. Maybe, maybe there's too many ill people. And maybe it's not because of their,

00:31:56.720 they caught something. Maybe it's because they believe it.

00:32:05.240 Well, yeah, I mean, I, I, okay, this is gonna be great. Are you, you want to talk about this?

00:32:10.120 You want to talk about your, your crisis? Talk about anything. I'll talk about anything.

00:32:13.980 Okay. Okay. Let's talk about this for a little bit. This is great. I love this. Okay.

00:32:19.340 So the first question that I have is, so when someone thinks they're ill,

00:32:26.420 what do you think is going on? How do you understand that?

00:32:30.940 Well, it varies. So I'll specify a little bit. I think a lot of people, the people that I'm

00:32:37.140 talking about, believe they're ill because they see memes on Tik TOK saying I'm so autistic. I'm so

00:32:41.720 autistic that I'm depressed and stupid. And I just can't do, they like to fall back on mentally ill

00:32:49.020 jokes and depressed jokes because they want to take away their own personal responsibility.

00:32:53.520 All right. If they, if they have a mental deficiency that they read about online, they're not

00:32:57.800 responsible for their unhappiness and their failures in life. So rather than try to sort

00:33:03.640 it out themselves, themselves, Oh, I caught something. I'm sad and depressed. I'm anxious.

00:33:09.940 So it's not my fault anymore. Now I need therapy. It's just, it's like the easy answer. I see it

00:33:15.320 almost equivalent to doing heroin or people who say that they self-medicate like, Oh, I'm so, I need

00:33:21.060 medicine. It's such a stressful day. I need to, I'm self-medicating like, no, you're just like

00:33:25.200 getting high. And you just came up with a word to describe, you came up with a reason to justify

00:33:29.560 it. Obviously there's, there's a lot of reasons people can believe they're ill, but I think the

00:33:33.400 main reason right now is because it's so popular. And you know, a lot of people have a lack of

00:33:38.280 personality. They're not that interesting. They don't really have anything going on. And everybody

00:33:42.220 has a, not everybody I'm generalizing again, but many people have a main character syndrome now

00:33:47.100 where they need to, the self-importance, right? So social media has made us more self-reflective

00:33:52.040 and made us more aware of our own existence than ever before. We're constantly looking

00:33:55.200 in the mirror, looking at ourselves, comparing ourselves more than we ever have to other

00:33:58.100 people. So if you want to become more interesting, you want to be at the top, the top echelon

00:34:02.440 of people like the ones that we see on the top of the algorithm, you need to create something.

00:34:06.260 You need to be the main character. If a lot of people are not interesting at all, mental

00:34:09.440 health is an easy route.

00:34:12.020 Okay. So, um,

00:34:15.820 so it sounds like, uh, when you're talking about, so what's your impression of what percentage

00:34:28.280 of people like have a diagnosis? Like, what do you think?

00:34:32.500 Have a, have a real diagnosis?

00:34:33.660 Or describe what you said. I don't know. Like, like what, how common is the phenomenon

00:34:40.300 that you're describing?

00:34:41.460 Again, it's going to be hard to measure statistically, but I think a lot of people

00:34:45.080 in Gen Z millennials, even if they're not fully diagnosed or self-diagnosed, they've definitely

00:34:50.220 considered it or have, you know,

00:34:53.420 Is considering it a bad thing?

00:34:57.060 Considering it, that's, that's a route to a bad thing. And yeah, I do think considering it,

00:35:02.700 I think considering it as real can be, uh, can be bad. When it's not bad is when you consider it,

00:35:09.540 like, am I depressed? And you're like, actually, no, I have a great life. I'm not, you know,

00:35:13.660 I'm not handicapped. I'm not mentally ill. I'm not stupid. I'm not, I don't have any major

00:35:17.960 disabilities. There's electricity, there's food. I'm alive. I'm not in a war. I'm good. If you

00:35:24.120 consider it, you should, you should consider it. See your circumstances, see where you're at

00:35:27.920 and then be appreciative again and go back to being a normal human.

00:35:32.700 Okay. So this is great. Um, so I'm curious, let's, so let's say someone has every reason

00:35:39.860 to be happy. Yeah. Right. And they're not happy.

00:35:44.200 get over it. What isn't, but doesn't that imply that there's something wrong with them because

00:35:53.820 they should be happy, right? I don't think people should view existence based on that scale. Like,

00:36:01.160 am I happy? Am I not happy? They should just survive and live because they, they, they're given a life.

00:36:06.640 It's not, it's not about, it's not, but you should, I'm, I'm, I'm taking your premise.

00:36:12.560 Okay. Right. Your premise was like, this person has a life. They've got this, they've got this,

00:36:17.040 they've got this, they're breathing and they're not happy. Right. Like they're not in Gaza.

00:36:23.380 So, and if they're unhappy, what do you think is the reason for that?

00:36:29.740 That is the circumstances that they have, like, what are they doing? What are they

00:36:34.380 and putting it into their mind? But they can fall back on believing that they have a chemical

00:36:40.060 imbalance or that they have a, you know, anxiety or something, or they, they need therapy,

00:36:44.000 or maybe there's a, there's a bigger reason. Forget about, forget about what they believe.

00:36:48.240 What do you think is the reason that someone who has every reason to be happy? If that person was

00:36:56.880 suicidal, how do you understand that? I think it's too much introspection.

00:37:00.820 Too much introspection. Too much introspection. Something like therapy can make people

00:37:06.420 unhappy because they're always thinking about how they should be happy.

00:37:10.300 Hold on. This person isn't in therapy, right? Or are they in therapy? Is it right? I'm trying to

00:37:14.960 start with your example that you laid out. Okay. So like this person has every reason to be happy,

00:37:21.540 but they're not happy. How do you understand what's wrong with them?

00:37:25.280 I think they are too introspective if they're thinking that way. And so they should live more

00:37:32.280 in the present and be appreciative of things like water, like sun, like family, like life. Instead,

00:37:39.720 the solution is more oftentimes action rather than inaction is being outward, living in the exterior,

00:37:47.080 living in the world rather than in their heads.

00:37:48.820 What do you think determines someone's capability of being introspective or action-oriented?

00:37:56.960 So there's a variance in the population, right? Some people are action-oriented. Some people are

00:38:01.260 introspective. How does one end up in either camp?

00:38:06.160 It depends. I mean, it could be personality type. It could be, you know, environment. But you can be

00:38:11.700 introspective and be happy. But if you're saying I'm unhappy and there's no reason why I shouldn't be

00:38:16.280 happy and you're an introspective person, that's probably the reason why.

00:38:21.640 But if you're saying that personality and environment determine your level of introspectiveness,

00:38:27.000 yes, right? Yes.

00:38:28.680 So if my personality and my environment, let's say I'm like, like how, let's just say you're

00:38:33.660 introspective at 25 out of 100. I'm just assigning you a random ass number. Let's say I'm introspective

00:38:39.880 at 90 out of 100. Okay. So, and the reason I'm introspective at 90 out of 100 is because of my

00:38:45.940 personality and my environment. I have a perfectly good life, but I happen to be suicidal.

00:38:51.700 Okay? Okay.

00:38:52.740 So at that point, like, I am introspective, right?

00:38:58.560 Okay. So what am I supposed to do? Like, that's not, it's not my choice. This is the way that my

00:39:04.420 brain works. Well, I'm saying it's a combination of environment and something that's innate.

00:39:10.160 Sure.

00:39:10.400 But it's also something you can change. Like, thinking is an action. You know, you're choosing,

00:39:15.000 it does burn calories. Thinking is, in a way, an action. Yeah.

00:39:18.500 So act more with your hands in externally than acting so internally.

00:39:23.940 Absolutely. Right. But that is a, that is a predisposition that you have because you're

00:39:29.620 action oriented. You're not introspective.

00:39:32.360 No, I am. No, I am an introspective person. You know, and I, I actually changed. I'm a very,

00:39:37.860 I started off like being somebody very innately introspective and I worked it out. And now as I

00:39:44.860 grow older, I become more, you know, more extroverted, they say, or more.

00:39:49.620 Can you tell me a little bit about that journey?

00:39:51.500 Okay. So I, I guess, yeah, when I was younger, I was, I was less social. I was more introverted.

00:39:59.520 I, I didn't really communicate the way that I communicate now with other people.

00:40:03.080 I thought about myself and the way it was.

00:40:06.660 Yeah. So how did you feel about yourself back then?

00:40:09.480 I had more feelings of inferiority, more insecurity, uh, less, I was less decisive. I was more worried

00:40:17.160 about what other people thought about me. I remember there's a specific example. I used to walk around

00:40:20.860 Manhattan and there'd be, you could see your reflection when you walk by buildings, right?

00:40:24.260 In the, in the windows. And I would constantly look at myself and wonder what other people were

00:40:28.860 thinking about me. And I walked by them and like, what do they, who do they think I am? And instead

00:40:35.020 I got rid of those thoughts by paying less attention to them and instead doing more, right? I realized that

00:40:40.920 it doesn't matter what other people think. It doesn't, why am I existing for, for other people

00:40:46.320 instead of for myself. So it was a, it was a decision to change.

00:40:50.900 So you said you had a realization followed by a decision, right?

00:40:53.880 Yes.

00:40:55.740 And what would have happened if you didn't have that realization?

00:41:00.580 I would have been in a worse spot. I would not have enjoyed my life as much as I do now.

00:41:05.900 Right. So, so you, you acted, but the realization came first and it sounds like the realization

00:41:13.640 preceded introspection or did it not precede introspection?

00:41:19.780 No, the realization came afterwards. So I understand you're going like, okay, people who

00:41:24.360 don't have that realization therapy could help them help lead them to that realization.

00:41:29.460 That's absolutely a slice of what I'm going to say, but I have a lot to say about what you've

00:41:33.240 said so far. I'm happy to lay out my, my thoughts about what you've said, but I would love to

00:41:37.300 you can do that. Okay. So I, I think you're, um, correct about a ton of stuff. I think that

00:41:44.400 you're just missing a couple of things in my opinion. Yes. So, uh, the first is that I, when

00:41:50.720 I think about a clinical depression, I think about someone who has every reason to be happy

00:41:56.820 and is, and isn't, that is what shows me that something is broken in their head.

00:42:01.000 Yeah. Right. So if you're, if you're depressed because you're 28 years old, you are physically

00:42:08.800 unhealthy. You have no social life. You watch pornography and play video games all day.

00:42:13.700 I don't think there's anything mentally wrong with you from a mental illness standpoint. I

00:42:18.140 don't think that's pathological. I think that's congruent with your life. If your life is shit,

00:42:23.000 you're going to feel bad. That's normal. That's not illness. What I think is illness is if

00:42:29.340 you're 46 years old, you make $600,000 or $800,000 a year, you're married, you have two kids,

00:42:37.780 you have a wife who's loving, faithful. Um, you are tall, you're handsome, you're successful,

00:42:44.620 and you want to kill yourself every single day. Do you see that there's a major thing you left out

00:42:49.640 of that equation of that life? Sure. It's spiritual purpose. It's, it's a greater purpose. Like

00:42:55.440 you're not living for your, you're not in your career to get validation from your boss or to get

00:43:01.840 a raise. Your purpose isn't specifically to have a good home and to be a successful guy with a mowed

00:43:07.080 lawn. Your purpose is greater than that. It's serving God. And I think that person, if they, if they want

00:43:12.960 to, if they're, if they have those circumstances, like, like, like you just laid out and you did leave

00:43:16.400 out a greater spiritual purpose, it's because that they, they can't find, they don't know what

00:43:21.520 it is. And spirituality solves that. Unreliably. Right. So make this person goes to church and

00:43:31.220 has a relationship with God. Right. So people in church will, I haven't met that guy. I don't,

00:43:37.240 I don't, I don't know this person. I know that, that, that example you're bringing up, obviously,

00:43:41.640 this is anecdotal evidence, but I've never seen that happen. You know, the people that end up,

00:43:45.860 like if you bring up, you know, perfect example, be like Anthony Bourdain or Robin Williams. Some

00:43:50.220 people say Robin Williams had Alzheimer's. He had some, some condition, but let's say he didn't

00:43:54.260 or Anthony Bourdain. Perfect example. You watched the like first episode of his TV show and he goes

00:43:59.180 to, I think Oscar Wilde's hotel room in Paris where Oscar Wilde killed himself. I can't, I'm not sure

00:44:04.280 if that's the right author or artist, whatever, but he goes there and he's like saying, whoa, all these

00:44:09.420 Parisian artists killed themselves and overdose here. He's kind of like, you know, he likes the allure

00:44:13.780 of the artists who ended up, you know, with that grieving, sad life. Anthony Bourdain ended up

00:44:19.780 killing himself in his early sixties and he had a daughter, he had a wife, he had a good life,

00:44:24.160 successful career, all this thing, but he'd never had a connection to God. That was the major thing

00:44:27.860 lacking. And that's why I think he did something so selfish as to take off himself while having a

00:44:32.380 daughter and having a wife. And I see some of his fans, they say Anthony Bourdain, oh, what a

00:44:37.500 tormented soul. When I see that guy, I think what a selfish asshole. What, what, what a narcissistic

00:44:44.000 self-involved piece of shit to do that while he has a daughter, while he has a wife around

00:44:49.260 without even leaving a note, hanging himself in a hotel room for people to find his body

00:44:53.240 because he wants to be remembered as a tormented, depressed artist. I think he was obsessed with that

00:44:58.800 idea. And if he had a greater purpose rather than living for himself and for his legacy,

00:45:03.900 he, he would have never done that. I mean, I think that's a completely valid opinion,

00:45:11.900 right? So, so what, what this, I mean, I'm detecting a couple of things. I'll go back to my original

00:45:17.240 answer, but I think that, um, so when this is interesting, give me a second.

00:45:26.820 Go ahead. Mods on Bama guy. How's it going so far, chat? What else should, what else should

00:45:39.040 I say? How, how's this going? Okay. So let's go back to what, well, I'm going to try to address

00:45:47.700 your, like, kind of earlier, a lot of what you said. So I think that generally speaking, you

00:45:54.800 know, when someone has a shitty life and they come in and they say they're depressed,

00:45:57.600 I think that there's ample evidence that shows that if you have a shitty life, your mood is likely

00:46:04.800 to be crap. Okay. And that oftentimes this is, I mean, the whole reason that I started streaming

00:46:11.700 on Twitch and the whole reason I started a coaching program is because I had so many patients come into

00:46:16.540 my office where I thought that talking to me about your feelings for an hour is not going to be nearly

00:46:23.920 as effective at improving your life as finding a romantic relationship, getting a job or a career

00:46:31.200 that you can be proud of. Um, actually getting your ass to the gym, like doing things like you talk

00:46:38.320 about wanting to write a science fiction fantasy novel that's dystopian. Let's fucking write it.

00:46:45.760 Right. So the whole reason that I started this is, is because I, I think that there's,

00:46:52.160 and there's ample evidence. And I think most psychiatrists and psychotherapists understand

00:46:55.840 this, that, that, you know, if we look at the mental health crisis that we're seeing today in

00:47:00.420 the world, a lot of it is an economic crisis. Like a lot of it is a crisis of loneliness at its root,

00:47:08.380 that a lot of the, a lot of the structures that supported people's socialization are like

00:47:16.680 disintegrating around us. So when, when a human being does not get the right kind of inputs,

00:47:24.220 they can manifest something like a mental illness. Now let's talk about a couple of other things. So

00:47:30.240 you mentioned that people have main character syndrome. I think there's also an overwhelming

00:47:34.840 amount of evidence. No, well, maybe not overwhelming. That's just how strongly I feel

00:47:38.460 about it. There's plenty of evidence that shows that increased technology usage and increased,

00:47:43.560 uh, social media usage, being on our phones all the time increases our narcissist, the narcissistic

00:47:50.720 dimension of our personality, right? The more that you judge a human being, the more narcissistic

00:47:55.920 they become. So when you're judged a lot, you're going to become narcissistic. That's just sort of how it

00:48:01.440 works. It doesn't always happen that way, but the default response is to be, become more

00:48:07.620 narcissistic. But before you get to interject real quick, just one observation before I don't want

00:48:11.900 to interrupt your train of thought, but I noticed that the tone has shifted like therapy and psychotherapy

00:48:16.580 a couple of years ago used to be chemical imbalance, used to be mental health crisis based off of,

00:48:22.820 you know, random that you, something you could catch. Now the language I'm hearing before you

00:48:28.560 continue, it sounds like it's self-inflicted. You're lonely because you're addicted to porn.

00:48:33.360 You're depressed because you're poor and you're not fulfilling. How do you get self-inflicted from

00:48:37.900 what I said? Are you talking about language that I didn't use? Well, you're saying that the majority

00:48:44.540 of the mental health crisis is due to socioeconomic factors, which sounds like it's, you know, these are

00:48:50.740 circumstances that are more controllable rather than uncontrollable. A few years back when I was in

00:48:55.100 college and everybody was on SSRIs and everyone was on ADHD pills, they were all thinking that it

00:49:01.060 was something that they just caught. It was a chemical imbalance. Now the language is, okay,

00:49:04.400 maybe you're depressed because you're a lonely loser who's addicted to porn. That's what I just

00:49:09.300 noticed from your response. I'm super confused because when we say that there's an economic crisis,

00:49:15.560 that's circumstances, not self-inflicted. Okay. That's less self-inflicted. My point is that

00:49:22.260 the chemical imbalance language has, has, has hindered quite a bit, right? Rather than it just

00:49:27.360 being something you catch, it's like, obviously the socioeconomic crisis that it's not everybody's

00:49:32.960 fault, but it is something that's controllable rather than uncontrollable. It's a situation that

00:49:37.320 they can get themselves out of rather than something that they caught in their brain.

00:49:39.940 Why would you, there's also, I think there's a weird, there's all kinds of like associations

00:49:47.000 that you form that I don't, if something is a chemical imbalance, what makes you think that

00:49:50.860 it's not modifiable by you? But my point is the language 10 years ago when this was blowing up and

00:49:58.900 everybody was, was that it was just something wrong, that it wasn't at all circumstantial, but just

00:50:04.440 something that happened to people like catching COVID. That's the point. That's, that's my point.

00:50:10.640 So, so I think there's a couple of reasons for that. Okay. The first is, um, I think things have

00:50:17.060 changed. And so the cool thing about medicine, science, and psychotherapy is that we tend to do

00:50:23.780 a pretty good job of evolving with the times and studying what happens. So I think that like,

00:50:29.880 you know, if we look at the last 10 years, the world is very different. And the reasons that

00:50:36.040 people are suffering mentally, I think are fundamental, there, there's a couple of fundamental

00:50:41.160 big changes which have happened, which means that the etiology, which means the cause, the cause of

00:50:46.800 the illness is changing, right? So the factors that people, the people, the world that people are

00:50:51.900 growing up in is shaping them in a way that it didn't shape them 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 25 years ago.

00:50:59.500 Okay. Does that make sense? So I think you're right that the language is changing. There's a couple

00:51:04.380 of other things. So there's a great paper that came out, I think in molecular size, uh, psychiatry

00:51:09.620 that basically made the claim, which I think has a lot of, um, merit. I'm not saying that they're

00:51:18.600 right, that the serotonin deficiency hypothesis of depression is not supported by evidence.

00:51:25.060 Okay. Did you believe that back then? Were you repeating that?

00:51:31.220 No. Oh, okay. I've never, I don't know. I wouldn't call myself a good one. I could be wrong.

00:51:42.140 No, but I, I, I want more psychotherapists who push that

00:51:48.500 serotonin depletion because of a chemical imbalance. I want them to take more responsibility

00:51:52.900 for that because I've been pushing on against that, pushing back against that for 10 years.

00:51:57.400 And people said that I was, you know, not sympathetic. They said I was demonizing depressed

00:52:01.900 people. They said that I was, that I should believe victims, right? I faced a lot of backlash

00:52:07.020 for that. And it seems like I've been vindicated that it's not, you know, serotonin depletion

00:52:11.240 is more often due to circumstances that are controllable rather than uncontrollable.

00:52:17.380 So it sounds like you, it really, what was it like when people basically attacked you for

00:52:23.520 doubting what people were saying about a serotonin? Oh, they said you're like, Oh, my friend killed

00:52:28.800 himself and you are insensitive. You piece of shit. Uh, they would get really upset. And I'm like,

00:52:35.400 I'm right. And you're mad. And that's just one, one of those factors of one of those situations

00:52:41.360 where I said something before it was deemed socially acceptable. And as soon as it becomes

00:52:47.120 socially acceptable, people don't admit that they were wrong. Right. And they, they move on

00:52:51.260 quickly without, you know, properly addressing their mistakes. And those are, those are very

00:52:57.840 dangerous mistakes. I think people who push that chemical imbalance lie and made all of my peers,

00:53:02.180 all of my, everybody in my dorm, I would say at least 80% were taking SSRIs because they thought

00:53:08.760 that they just caught depression and we move on. We act like that didn't happen, but this was very,

00:53:13.200 very normal. I mean, I went to a whole high school. I went to a boarding school in New Hampshire where

00:53:17.040 everyone, all the parents were sending them there because they thought that their kids were just

00:53:20.420 depressed for no reason. And there was a mental health problem that they, they didn't know how to fix

00:53:24.480 without therapy, without medication, without, you know, all of these practices.

00:53:30.440 What was that like for you to, to, to believe something and get like, tell everyone, tell you

00:53:34.880 like, oh, you're such an asshole basically. Right. You're a dick for believing this. And like,

00:53:39.080 everyone's fucking drinking the Kool-Aid and you're like, I don't want to drink the Kool-Aid.

00:53:42.380 Did anyone ever call you depressed?

00:53:45.340 Not really. No.

00:53:47.100 Okay.

00:53:48.580 And so what's it like to be vindicated, which seems so important to you.

00:53:52.760 I'm catching that you caught onto the frustration, which I think I know you caught that. That's a

00:53:59.140 repeated theme since I last spoke to you is I am vindicated about a lot of things that I was

00:54:05.320 demonized for saying too early for the public to understand. And it's frustrating that, and that's

00:54:11.920 something I'm working on. Like it, it, it has increased some bitterness where I'm like these

00:54:16.100 fucking, like I saw this movie Eddington, right? It's a movie by Ari Aster and it's about 2020 COVID.

00:54:21.240 And it's about the George Floyd riots at the height of COVID paranoia and everything.

00:54:24.760 And I remember at that time I did not get the COVID vaccine. I was speaking out against it.

00:54:29.180 I was calling the George Floyd looting and all the riots. I was saying that this is stupid.

00:54:32.760 They said that you are against the black lives matter movement. You're propagating racism and you

00:54:37.940 should not be able to see your grandmother because you're going to get everybody sick.

00:54:40.920 And you're a super spreader. People moved on. Now they watch the movie and laugh. And I sat in that

00:54:45.640 movie theater. I'm like watching, it was in New York city. I'm watching everyone laugh at this.

00:54:48.460 And I'm like, you didn't let me go into a restaurant without, I had to show my fake vaccine

00:54:53.040 card everywhere. I traveled with this, right? I was deep. You said that I'm a bad person for

00:54:57.460 not posting a black square on Instagram, but then everyone laughs now and act like they're

00:55:01.760 acting like they didn't, you know, push that craziness, that propaganda. Everybody. I remember

00:55:06.560 back then, all these people in college that were taking SSRIs because they had a chemical imbalance

00:55:10.580 because that's what they read online. Now that they moved on, they don't tell, they don't say

00:55:15.140 like, Oh, actually, you know what? I'm sorry for demonizing you. And ironically, when you push

00:55:21.840 somebody, when you call them crazy, that's one of the quickest routes to make them mentally ill

00:55:25.720 and to give them mental health problems. When you isolate somebody, call them crazy and say that

00:55:30.020 they're a bad person when they're really trying to be healthy. Oh, for years, for years, they still do.

00:55:37.720 So, but I mean, the more time passes, the more I'm being vindicated, but they say I'm crazy less now.

00:55:45.700 What's it like to be vindicated?

00:55:49.620 Annoying.

00:55:52.220 Annoying.

00:55:52.800 Tell me about it, right? Oh man, that's such a good word. Definitely introspective.

00:55:57.260 That's, that's a good word. You know, annoying because

00:56:02.540 yeah, I totally get you. What's annoying about it? You want me to answer or you want to answer?

00:56:10.520 I want you to answer.

00:56:11.320 I want you to answer.

00:56:11.860 I think, I think I kind of, I kind of did answer already.

00:56:15.940 No, no, no, no. What's annoying about it?

00:56:18.000 Well, what I just said, it's annoying that people move on. Like they didn't push the propaganda

00:56:24.440 that they fell for, right? They don't admit the wrongdoing. And it's annoying because it seems

00:56:30.780 like it's so repeatable. If they don't say like, man, I wasn't so stupid for believing that I

00:56:38.400 couldn't sit next to somebody without a mask on, but then I lowered it and then ate the food while

00:56:43.780 they were eating, who were both breathing all over our plates on the plane and then put it back on.

00:56:47.880 And like all the dirty stares I got, cause I wasn't wearing a mask. The fact that they don't

00:56:51.880 self-reflect and protect those any introspection on, on that aspect, it seems like this is going

00:56:56.900 to happen again. And it will, and more people will fall for these very easily debunked lies.

00:57:05.480 Okay. So I, I think.

00:57:08.100 Would you say that when people judged you in this way that it hurt?

00:57:30.220 No, I don't think it hurt because I knew I was right. And I think it made me mentally stronger.

00:57:38.100 So no, I wouldn't say I was, no, I don't think so.

00:57:43.240 Okay. I would be surprised if you use that word too, but I think it did hurt.

00:57:51.960 Right. I think it hurts just because you're mentally strong. Doesn't, I mean,

00:57:55.180 so you mentioned mental strength and usually you need strength.

00:57:58.240 Right. When you go to the gym, you break down your muscles and then they repair.

00:58:01.640 So I would, I would probably admit that it hurt if I fell victim to it, but I did it. You know,

00:58:07.400 I just, I was able to rise out of the ashes like a Phoenix.

00:58:13.280 Right. But then you're in the ashes. Like you got burned, bro. You see what I'm saying? Like,

00:58:18.060 I think there's an association here. I think that there's the, the, the word bothers you a lot,

00:58:23.100 but I think that's what happened. Does that sort of make sense? Like, I understand. I understand.

00:58:27.000 Yeah. Like, okay. Well, by the analogy is like, when you go to the gym and you have a great workout,

00:58:30.920 you're not like, fuck that hurt. You're like, woo. It's like, it's like a, in a masochistic way,

00:58:36.280 the pain is good because you know that it's going to make you better. You understand? Like what,

00:58:39.260 if you do a really big set of the bench, you're not like, oh my God, it's pain. You're not like,

00:58:43.180 it's painful. It's a good pain. So it's, it's different. It's different than hurt.

00:58:48.580 Yeah. I'm, I'm with you. Right. So I would say that it hurt. Right. And then it's just a good hurt.

00:58:54.800 Not all hurt is bad and not all hurt happens to weak people. And a lot of strength comes from hurt.

00:59:01.120 Like, I think that, you know, if we look at the people in Gaza, there, there's a lot of hurt there,

00:59:06.380 but I don't think those people are weak. I think those people are strong. Yeah. And I think that hurt

00:59:11.500 is a great way to grow. And I think that there's a lot of, there's a lot of associations with hurt and

00:59:19.920 weakness that if you're strong, you don't get hurt. There's this idea that invulnerability and

00:59:26.140 strength are correlated. I don't think they are. I think strength, like, you know, it's sort of like

00:59:31.520 courage or fearlessness. Like, I think I respect courage way more than fearlessness. Fearlessness,

00:59:37.760 I think is ignorance. Courage is overcoming your fear. But if you ask a courageous person,

00:59:42.540 are you scared? I think it's kind of like that. So I think that it's very clear to me that this was

00:59:49.360 painful to you. Yeah. As you say this, I understand your point. But I'm realizing my

00:59:55.920 thought process is that I don't like to think with any victim, if I can remove any victim words from

01:00:02.860 my vocabulary, my thought process, I end up, I end up better. So rather than say, like, this was

01:00:07.740 painful, it's that signals to the world and signals to people that, you know, like that you need

01:00:14.020 shelter or that you need comfort. And I'd rather that that all come internally. So I refuse, I try

01:00:21.120 to limit as much of that language as possible, because it helps with the recovery process in a

01:00:28.020 better way. So it's, it's selective thinking. And that's actually a good example of self-accountability

01:00:34.040 responsibility, right? If I use words like hurt more, then I'm going to be, I'm going to think in a

01:00:39.540 weaker state rather than overcome it immediately. So I recommend people think that way as well. The less

01:00:46.680 strength you give away, and the less, you know, the less weakness you signal to the world, the less

01:00:52.580 that people are going to take advantage of it.

01:00:55.460 So.

01:00:55.860 Um, I really respect that response. So I think like, like I said, this is the second time I'm

01:01:04.900 going to say this, I think you're a really strong thinker. So I think very few people can do what

01:01:11.640 you just did. So I think most people stick to their guns, they don't modify what they're saying

01:01:16.840 at all. And here's what I think is going to be even more dangerous. And I think we should have

01:01:22.960 this conversation, but I still want to get back to the other thing. Maybe that one is left forever,

01:01:26.880 but I think that your way of thinking is really good to move you from one place to another place,

01:01:35.000 but I think it's going to keep you stuck. And there is another evolution of your thinking,

01:01:40.760 which is that, so right now what you're doing is you're creating like a mental filter, right? So

01:01:45.200 thinking this way does not help me. That is whether something is functionally useful

01:01:51.780 is different from whether it is true. So you're, you've engaged in a cognitive reshaping.

01:02:01.120 And I know this is going to sound kind of challenging. I think it's absolutely adaptive.

01:02:05.780 And I think that at some point, if not already, it is going to be maladaptive. I think it's a really,

01:02:13.940 really useful strategy, but at its core, it is dishonest.

01:02:19.040 But that's also the difference between having, so I'm going to interrupt you. Okay, go ahead, go ahead.

01:02:22.320 And I think that many people who are not mentally capable require some degree of dishonesty. And you

01:02:33.560 have to work yourself up to being able to handle an honest perspective on your life. And I can offer

01:02:41.200 examples. So I think what you're doing makes a lot of sense. And I think it's going to fuck you down

01:02:46.580 the road. Okay, but there's a difference between having this conversation publicly and privately.

01:02:50.760 Part of the reason I answered that was because so much of what I do and say is in the public eye

01:02:55.700 for years that, and especially, I mean, this is a public conversation right now. I am thinking

01:03:01.120 differently and speaking differently because thousands, maybe millions of people are listening

01:03:05.060 to these words right now. So I know that it's a, it's a responsibility and it's powerful. So I don't

01:03:12.080 signal, like if we're having this conversation properly, it'd be completely different.

01:03:15.040 I would have been like, mine, that fucking suck. Yeah. Yeah. But I have people that are like,

01:03:20.260 you know, I want to inspire people. I want to make the world a better place. And I've seen the

01:03:24.620 impact that I've had culturally. And I've changed, I've noticed myself change the zeitgeist. I've seen

01:03:32.400 language, I've seen the shift that I think people in my space on the internet and me directly that I've

01:03:38.040 had on the culture. So that's the difference between people who think privately and are always

01:03:45.320 in the public eye and always being scrutinized and always being in the free marketplace of ideas.

01:03:54.520 What do you think would happen if you said, yeah, that sucked in a public way?

01:03:58.720 That gives more weakness and it signals to more people that they can be vulnerable. And yes,

01:04:12.880 that's true that it's good to be vulnerable, but oftentimes for men, it's better to not be

01:04:17.340 vulnerable publicly. So if I want to help out people and I want to make the world a better place,

01:04:23.040 I would like to limit the amount of vulnerability that people give away randomly. Right? I mean,

01:04:28.900 I trust you. I've had conversation with you and I trust that you're an open person. If I were

01:04:32.560 speaking to you privately, I'd be more vulnerable with that. But I don't, there's so many, I have

01:04:37.000 enemies. I have people that want to destroy everything I do. So the less amount of vulnerability

01:04:43.880 that I could signal to the world, the better.

01:04:49.240 That makes me sad to hear, man.

01:04:53.040 Like you sound like you're, I mean, that sounds like you're carrying a lot and, and I don't mean

01:04:58.720 that I, I, I appreciate the nobility of it. Like I'm not asking for things to be different. I think

01:05:06.820 on balance, it's a good thing what you're carrying around. I can see how it helps people and I can see

01:05:12.920 how you're okay carrying it because it does help people that you take this responsibility incredibly

01:05:20.860 seriously. And it makes me sad to hear that that still costs you. Right? So like, just because

01:05:29.160 carrying it is worth it and is the right thing to do and maybe align with your spiritual goals in

01:05:33.980 life or whatever, doesn't change the fact that it still is hard to carry sometimes.

01:05:38.940 And to hear you have to be so paranoid and pardon me if that word is too strong or so careful,

01:05:47.340 so thoughtful to have such a, it sounds exhausting. It sounds trapping. Like you can't be free.

01:05:55.040 And cause you used to, right? And you, boy, did you get fucking punished for it, bro?

01:05:58.980 You, you, you shared your opinions. You didn't drink the Kool-Aid and people were like, fuck you,

01:06:05.180 bro. You're being insensitive. You're not standing up for black people. I lost everything.

01:06:12.720 You lost everything. You can't stream. You can't stream this conversation because,

01:06:16.900 because of that. I, I, I get it. Right. So you, you've been punished so hard and that makes me sad.

01:06:22.360 It is what it is. It is what I mean, but there, there we go. It's like, okay, it's what is worth

01:06:29.660 being sad about? Hold on. It is the, it is what it is. Yeah. What it is. What is that? What is that

01:06:39.760 phrase, Sneeko? This is the, this is reality. No, it's not. That's the fucking exact opposite.

01:06:47.960 Yes. This, this literally, no, actually this is reality. No, it's not. It is what it is,

01:06:53.600 is you doing your cognitive transformation towards strength and not allowing your weakness.

01:07:01.200 Say that one more time. When you say the phrase, it is what it is,

01:07:06.100 that's your cognitive transformation. That's your movement from weakness to strength.

01:07:11.080 But how does that not reality? Because it's a transformation. It's something that you're

01:07:16.420 intentionally doing to change your perspective. This is where you start. And then when you say

01:07:22.920 it is what it is, it's a really sneaky version of it, right? Because you're saying it is what it is.

01:07:27.560 But if that is what it is, there is so much anger, frustration, disappointment, all these fucking

01:07:34.840 people said all this shit about you. And now that you've been vindicated, does anyone apologize? Does

01:07:40.640 anyone say, welcome back to the platform, bro? No, of course not. There is such a mountain

01:07:45.720 of frustration and pain and whatever. And the only way, let's say, to deal with that, right? Because

01:07:53.240 what are you going to do? You say it is what it is. This is the world that we live in. So I'm going

01:07:58.580 to reframe away from that shit to this. It is what it is. You soldier on.

01:08:07.080 Well, I mean, that statement still is true. It literally is what it is. Regardless, it's 100. It is

01:08:17.840 true. The statement is true. Okay. Hold on. And it's not that it's false. It's that it's a cognitive

01:08:25.260 shift, right? So when you do that, you're shifting away from something else. Does that kind of make

01:08:32.860 sense? What I'm shifting? I understand completely what I'm shifting away from when you say that

01:08:36.980 makes me sad. I start thinking, fuck, like, maybe I should feel sorry and sad for myself. And then I'm

01:08:42.740 like, I literally I remember where I am. I have a nice exactly. And then you do the cognitive shift.

01:08:49.160 But why? Why would it? What's wrong with shifting to a more positive?

01:08:53.360 Nothing's wrong with shifting right now. Okay. So the so what's the what's your point?

01:08:56.460 My point is, first of all, that we should have awareness. Here's what I think is good. This is

01:09:02.400 what I'm moving towards. We should have awareness of what happens inside of us. That's the North

01:09:07.080 Star. Nothing we should be blind. I'm completely aware of that. Because when you when you when you

01:09:12.220 say that makes me sad, I was like, fuck, yeah, that sucks. Yeah. And I'm like, damn, I started thinking

01:09:17.240 about the stuff I lost and stuff. And you know, how my reputation was hit and the attacks I get that I

01:09:21.560 still get to this day and all this blah, blah, blah. So I'm thinking negatively. And I'm reminded

01:09:25.380 that thinking negatively does not solve anything. And that solutions come through positive and

01:09:30.200 forward thinking through maintaining real frame. Then I'm reminded about what is happening across

01:09:35.060 the world. Like is feeling sorry for myself while children are starving in Gaza, as we speak

01:09:40.880 that I know it's it's selfish thinking to be thinking. So all me, oh, what was me and returning

01:09:48.480 to this frame when it's like people have way worse circumstances right now that, you know,

01:09:54.400 if they're able to soldier on, then I should too. And this the world keeps spinning.

01:09:59.800 The girls keep being girls. Everyone keeps everyone moves. Everyone is still living and

01:10:04.680 we're all older than we were a second ago. So it is what it is. Let's keep on going. What's

01:10:09.380 next? That's the only solution. There is no solution to be found through that negative

01:10:14.400 introspection.

01:10:14.940 I disagree. Okay. So I think this is a great solution when you're 26. It's a bad solution

01:10:26.220 when you're 42. So I think that that I'm with you all the way. I think there's a couple of

01:10:34.300 associations that you're making, which I think are completely logical to make or completely

01:10:40.160 correct to make. Admitting weakness or admitting hurt, you're attaching to a downward spiral.

01:10:47.980 Yeah. And I think in when you were probably like a teenager and you had some crush on some girl in

01:10:54.920 high school and she didn't give you the time of day, you were like, fuck that. I ain't ever going

01:10:59.740 to be that guy again. So when you look at yourself, when you see yourself in the reflection of walking

01:11:03.980 down the street in Manhattan, you didn't like what you saw. And then you decided you vowed to yourself,

01:11:09.020 you're never going to be that. And look at this beautiful suit you're wearing now.

01:11:12.480 Looking great. Look at where you are now. How can you ever say that this form of adaptation

01:11:17.820 is a problem? And I'm with you. I think it's the right thing for you to do up until this point.

01:11:23.340 And by all means, do it for another 15 years.

01:11:26.300 And then 15 years, what happens?

01:11:30.360 In 15 years, you will have such a pile of negativity inside you because you've reframed,

01:11:38.140 reframed, reframed, reframed. You'll be functional. You'll be, I don't know about you will. That's not

01:11:43.360 right. So there is a chance that if you continue employing this strategy, the resentment that you

01:11:51.880 have that is pretty potent, right? Like you've used the word vindication several times. So you're,

01:11:58.460 you're, let me think.

01:12:05.940 I'm trying to find a less demeaning word than butt hurt, but I can't. So like, I'm, I'm, I feel like

01:12:14.340 I'm walking very dangerous ground because if I say a single thing that demeans you, I think it's

01:12:20.460 going to be hard, but I'm using the word butt hurt because I'm leaning into this, like, I respect you

01:12:25.520 and I really do. And I care about you. Like I do. Thank you. And, and you're so butt hurt about this

01:12:30.800 that you're like seeking vindication so much. And the problem is that you can seek vindication over

01:12:36.720 and over and over again. But if the butt hurt keeps piling up that you can't really, you can not let the

01:12:42.720 butt hurt hurt you through adaptive thinking, which is absolutely correct. I think if you're someone who's

01:12:49.120 like super depressed, I think doing what you're doing is really good. I really do. It's, it's cognitively

01:12:56.200 flexible. It's, it's cognitive adaptations. The shit that you're doing in your mind right now is 50% of what

01:13:04.120 we teach in therapy. We teach people to think like you. Okay. Okay. And I think that there comes a point

01:13:12.100 where accepting every dimension of your being gets you closer to transcendence. And, and I think you're

01:13:20.480 going to understand this too, because when you're with God, you don't do any of this. That's the whole

01:13:26.700 value. Right. And so all I'm saying is like that, which you do when you, when you lay yourself bare and

01:13:34.800 you tell God about how butt hurt you are, it's not weak, right? You, you let go of it. You're like,

01:13:39.280 kind of like, okay, this has happened like whatever, right? Like I'm going to put my faith

01:13:42.840 in you. I don't know exactly what you do or whatever, but there's a certain amount of like

01:13:46.280 brutal honesty about your weakness, which I totally get is complicated because you're in a public space.

01:13:52.960 People dislike you, people try to take you down all this kind of shit. Right. So I'm, I'm not

01:13:57.440 blamed. Please understand. I'm not, I'm not blaming you for anything that you do. I think you're

01:14:01.700 remarkably resilient. Thank you. And I think that there's like, I don't know if this kind of

01:14:08.800 makes sense. You know, so oftentimes in my experience, people are like at one end of the

01:14:16.960 pendulum and then they swing to the other end and that's progress. But I think that there's a step

01:14:23.060 above that, which is to not be on either end of the pendulum and kind of come towards the middle

01:14:27.920 where you can be vulnerable. You can be hurt. You can say that this hurt you. You can say that this

01:14:33.700 bothers you, but there is a methodology to not let that turn into a spiral.

01:14:42.240 And I think that when you do that, there is a level. So I don't know if this makes sense.

01:14:46.700 Every time you do that, I don't know if this is going to make sense. There's internal friction.

01:14:50.940 I'm not saying you're weak. I'm not saying it's going to hurt you. I'm saying that there's like,

01:14:54.240 there's some like, right. And it comes out with your use of the word vindication.

01:15:00.740 And what I'm talking about is peace. Not right, not successful. And if you continue along this

01:15:11.020 track, you may be peace because you've got spirituality on your side. And I think spirituality

01:15:16.340 helps you find that space between these things. I think it's a really good thing. So I'm not trying

01:15:21.940 to like predict doom and gloom for you. But I think that especially like, I do think it's it's

01:15:28.060 better to continue to level up. And because I see a lot of people get stuck with like this way of

01:15:35.060 thinking, which is this sort of like reliance on adaptation reliance on like, I don't think this is

01:15:43.760 you. But in some people, it's like toxic positivity, where they can't ever like say that they're hurt or

01:15:50.140 sad or whatever, right? Like it's it's just I don't think that that label fits you. I think it's I think

01:15:57.000 the better thing to fit you're resilient. And you've got, you know, adaptations based on

01:16:02.840 I'm trying to find a better word than trauma. But like, you've had negative experiences that you've

01:16:12.020 adapted to. And one of the things that we know, is that negative experiences are healthy adaptations

01:16:19.600 in those circumstances. But if you carry those adaptations into different circumstances,

01:16:24.760 they can become something called maladaptive.

01:16:29.320 Right? So like, I think that a good example of where I see this a lot with men,

01:16:34.660 I'm a loser, I'm going to become a winner. And then the kinds of relationships that you're capable

01:16:42.860 of, can be different from what you truly crave. Right? So like, you can never show weakness

01:16:51.020 in front of your partner, your romantic partner, if it's a woman. But really, what you crave is like

01:16:57.520 true partnership, you want one person in this world that you don't have to put on a mask with that

01:17:02.420 will stand by you all the time. But if you keep on doing this shit reflexively, you will never

01:17:07.760 show her that weakness. And you will never give her an opportunity to accept you in your flawed

01:17:14.260 state. And if you never give her the chance to accept you in your flawed state, there will always

01:17:19.440 be a doubt on my in your mind, is she going to leave me if XYZ happens? That kind of security is

01:17:27.280 like, fucking amazing. Right? And I think you have some sense of this, because usually we can

01:17:32.340 get some version of this through a spiritual experience or God or whatever, because we can

01:17:37.320 be honest with God, hopefully, fingers crossed. I don't know. So what do you think is so you sound

01:17:45.400 like you're coming from a perspective, you're older, you've you've been through more than I have,

01:17:49.720 most likely. I don't know if that's true. Okay, well, I mean, you're I'm older, you're a father,

01:17:55.520 and you have you have children, you have you've had experiences that I have yet to have any idea about

01:18:00.200 personally yet. So you're saying that by age 42, I am going to doing the the practice of the

01:18:08.500 shifting, you know, cope that it doesn't work the same anymore, because eventually it's going to

01:18:12.700 catch up to you. And you might have like a nervous breakdown or something like that. So you're saying

01:18:16.140 be more more even keel. And as you as you explain this, I am realizing that a lot of that I can't

01:18:23.020 really afford to be more in the middle about this, because of what I do. You know, this,

01:18:29.680 that's why I'm sad. But yeah, and I understand. But I can't really like if I was more nuanced with

01:18:38.020 and I was and I was more, you know, sitting in that not only does it not accomplish anything, but

01:18:43.340 it everything else sacrifices, then my my content sacrifices, and my content loses, then I lose more.

01:18:50.720 And then it's like, it's a, you know, it's exponential loss. So because then I'm producing

01:18:56.720 less money, then I'm going to be less active, then I'm going to be, you know, not enjoying the

01:18:59.980 content as more. It's just, you know, it's a domino effect to a worse life. So it's just this frame of

01:19:06.040 thinking is the most effective for what I do. I can totally understand. So it's not my place to tell

01:19:12.420 you. And by not my place, I mean, it would be the height of arrogance for me to tell you, if you do

01:19:19.440 this, your content will be fine, right? You know, your content way better than I do. You know what

01:19:23.680 works and what doesn't work. What I would encourage you to do is

01:19:28.120 this is something I feel pretty confident about. So here at Healthy Gamer, we've worked with over 500

01:19:37.400 content creators and ranging from super, super small to like huge. And like way bigger than me or you.

01:19:47.560 And, and, and I'm making assumptions about what your content size is, which I'm pretty sure I'm

01:19:52.880 right. But I mean, I don't know what it is, but I think it's in the ballpark of where I am. Right.

01:19:56.540 So, and, and I think that one of the most consistent things is that, you know, people learn a particular

01:20:02.840 strategy of something working, but when you work with them, when you really start to question things,

01:20:07.700 when you start to try things, what a lot of people, what a lot of content creators feel,

01:20:11.920 this is really ironic, but a lot of people think that the more, the bigger you are as a content

01:20:15.860 creator, the more power you have, the more freedom you have, but really it's the opposite.

01:20:20.500 So when you're like a no name, anybody, nobody, you can make whatever kind of content you want.

01:20:24.840 And it doesn't really matter as content creators become more and more successful. One of the most

01:20:30.320 common experiences they have is they feel more and more restricted. They can't try different things

01:20:35.640 because there's this domino effect. They have to make the same kind of content. They can't speak

01:20:40.260 out about this. They can't, you know, speak out about that. Like they can't, they're going to get

01:20:44.400 punished for any kind of innovation, except for the acceptable innovation. Right. So if you have

01:20:50.100 a certain kind of content and you talk to people on the street, you can go to Amsterdam instead of

01:20:54.260 New York. That's like an innovation that your audience will like. Right. It's been my experience

01:20:59.180 that with, with the right amount of thought and energy for about 40% of people, that's not true.

01:21:05.420 I wish I could say everybody, if they thought hard enough, they can, they're not nearly as trapped

01:21:11.600 as you are, but I'd say I'd ballpark it at about 40%. And I totally get that. This is a, this is a huge

01:21:19.000 challenge for you and that you're shaped by having this public persona. And the reason that I stopped

01:21:25.680 it, I have more experience than you. I think you've lived a lot more at 26. I mean, when I was like,

01:21:32.040 than I had at your age. So I, I, I think like, I mean, you said you started making content in 2013.

01:21:38.700 So I, I, I, just because I'm older than you, sure. I have some experiences that you don't have,

01:21:44.140 and I have more experiences theoretically, but I also know that for a large part of my life,

01:21:49.180 I had the same fucking experience day after day, after day, after day, after day, after day,

01:21:52.560 after day, after day. I mean, I used to play video games for like 16 to 20 hours a day for like years

01:21:57.240 of my life. So there, I mean, I don't think that, you know, it's the same fucking thing and maybe the

01:22:02.540 depths of, of the depression or whatever you want to call it got worse. But like, generally speaking,

01:22:07.440 I, I, I think you've had quite, I mean, you mentioned that you, you know, you spent five

01:22:13.080 weeks in Spain with Kanye West. Like that's a big experience, right? You've made a lot of different

01:22:17.560 content. You've talked to a lot of different people. So on balance, I'd say I, I probably have more

01:22:22.960 experiences in life than you do, but I, I wouldn't jump to that conclusion as easily as you would.

01:22:28.920 Yes. I'm also partially being humble so that I don't come off too, you know, braggadocious to,

01:22:36.040 you know, the people watching this, but then that is true. And also, it's also why I joke around about

01:22:40.260 going through a midlife crisis because the life that I've lived so far, I feel much older. And I,

01:22:47.200 like most of my friends are in their mid late thirties. Most of my close, my close friends are much older

01:22:52.740 than me because a lot of people, my age, they haven't, you know, they haven't seen too, too

01:22:58.180 much and they haven't been through as much as I've been through. So it's, it's harder, harder to relate

01:23:03.600 a hundred percent. So where do you think we should go from here?

01:23:09.760 In life or this conversation? This conversation?

01:23:15.280 I, um, I can go back to my perspective of mental health. I can talk to you. I can ask you questions

01:23:21.740 about what you've been going through recently. Um,

01:23:27.180 whatever, whatever you think, whatever you think.

01:23:32.900 Okay. Let me finish like my perspective on mental health. Cause you, you said a lot of stuff there

01:23:37.100 and then I'll ask you about, you know, what's what you're going through recently.

01:23:40.800 Yes. And then I want to, I do want to ask you about fatherhood after, after those two things.

01:23:44.980 Sure. So, um, I, I, I think, you know, Sneeko, I think your, your observations are, are like

01:23:52.900 pretty spot on in a lot of ways. I think some of the conclusions that you draw. So I noticed that

01:23:58.880 you, you make a lot of associations. So you'll like make this observation and then you'll tie

01:24:03.720 something to it. Right. So for example, the expression of weakness means like maybe a downward

01:24:08.200 spiral or whatever. And it's not that that's, that's wrong. Right. So that's clearly observable

01:24:14.040 in our own lives. If I like wallow in my weakness, then like it can lead to a downward spiral. We see

01:24:21.600 a lot of people who express weakness. Like if someone expresses weakness, the likelihood that they

01:24:28.080 wallow in it is like pretty high. Does that kind of make sense? Absolutely. So I think you, you make a lot

01:24:33.220 of associations and what I really respect you for is that when I point out the associations,

01:24:39.020 you're, you're quite flexible around them. So like your, your capacity to self-reflect and recognize

01:24:46.420 what you're doing internally is like quite exceptional. Let's go. So there was, there,

01:24:51.700 there was a video, um, that a buddy of mine made, I don't know if he made it or whatever on his channel

01:24:56.760 that has your face and my face and talks about how I owned you. I saw it. I don't know if you've seen

01:25:01.100 it. I've seen that. And, and so I was a little bit frustrated when I saw that, but I realized that

01:25:05.160 it is what it is. This is what the world is and whatever. The thing that I, I really bothered me,

01:25:10.120 I've never watched the video, but the thing that I think really bothered me about that video

01:25:13.680 is that we, it talks about me owning you. But I think the real thing there is

01:25:19.460 you should be given a ton of credit because in order for me to quote unquote own you,

01:25:26.900 you have to be open-minded. And what I think our conversation was really a testament to me about

01:25:33.020 was your open-mindedness, right? That like, I can't convince you unless of shit, unless you're

01:25:39.020 willing to be convinced, unless you're actually able to look at the critical nature or you're able

01:25:44.440 to look at your thought process in a critical way. So that, that was one thing I never watched

01:25:48.620 the video, but whatever. And, and, and so I think this is something that like, I just hope that

01:25:53.360 because who knows, right? This isn't a public, maybe someone will make this again or whatever. But

01:25:57.400 I think like, it's really important for people to understand that,

01:26:01.840 you know, if you start this conversation in one place and you end up in another place,

01:26:07.600 that requires effort on both of our parts, right? I can offer something, but then you have to be

01:26:14.820 willing to receive it. And if you're close-minded about it, I'm not going to be able, I can't like,

01:26:20.180 because I don't argue, I mean, we're not arguing, we're talking. And so that's something that I just

01:26:25.480 really appreciate about you. Anyway, so I think that's one thing that I think is, you make these

01:26:30.320 tight associations, which I just don't make. So half of what you say, I agree with 100%. The

01:26:36.080 conclusions that you come to, I don't agree with. So a couple of these things, are people having more

01:26:41.440 main character syndrome? Absolutely. Are people becoming more narcissistic? Absolutely.

01:26:46.700 Are, is the validation of feelings and is everyone over-identifying in a negative way

01:26:56.160 with mental illness? There's data to support that. The science actually supports that. There's one

01:27:01.660 study that found that something like 90 to 95% of information about autism or ADHD on TikTok,

01:27:09.140 it's rusty on the study, it's about 18 months old, I think at this point, is wrong. So everyone is like,

01:27:15.160 if you do this, you've got ADHD. If you do this, you've got autism. 90 to 95% of it is incorrect.

01:27:22.620 And these are like huge content creators that basically have the slice of life stuff. And then

01:27:26.340 people is like, oh, I forget my keys. That means I have ADHD. So there is an over-identification with

01:27:32.520 a lot of mental illness stuff. I totally see that. I think it's really, really challenging. I think

01:27:36.720 it's not healthy. Second thing, I think there's a lot of bullshit around the validation of feelings.

01:27:44.360 So I think that there's, there's actually a really cool paper, I can show it later or send you a

01:27:50.180 reference or whatever, about how reassurance seeking is mentally unhealthy. So a lot of people

01:27:59.040 who post things about struggles are seeking reassurance. So this is a form of unhealthy coping

01:28:07.000 and coping in general is not healthy. So coping is, I mean, like roughly let's understand, right? So

01:28:15.880 coping is not problem solving. Coping is accepting a particular negative state and then doing something

01:28:23.160 to be able to tolerate the state. But the problem with coping is that you tend to propagate the

01:28:29.000 negative state. The healthy way to cope is right now I'm overwhelmed. Right now I'm feeling bad. Let

01:28:34.980 me cope so I feel better. But there's a really important second step. Now that I'm better, now that

01:28:41.520 I'm feeling better, what am I going to do to change my circumstances so that I don't feel that way

01:28:47.480 again. I see a very, very disturbing trend, which I do think is somewhat responsible for the increase

01:28:55.640 in mental illness and mental suffering that we see that people are like sort of defaulting to some of

01:29:01.720 these like maladaptive mechanisms. The other thing that I think is really healthy, unhealthy is that

01:29:07.020 people are increasingly, this is really challenging, but we basically have, we sort of have a epidemic

01:29:20.700 of something in the ballpark of factitious disorder and malingering. So let me explain. So there's a

01:29:27.360 handful of illnesses. Okay. So pseudo seizures, non-epileptiform seizures, factitious disorder,

01:29:33.460 malingering, malingering, that are illnesses that people create the sick role, either intentionally or

01:29:42.200 psychologically. They claim being sick. And the reason that they claim being sick is because it

01:29:48.600 benefits them in some way. So in society, if you are ill, we give you certain latitude. If you're ill,

01:29:57.580 you don't have to come to work. If you're ill, you don't have to go to school. If you're ill,

01:30:02.000 you don't have to take out the trash, right? This is something that we as a society do.

01:30:06.600 So what some people learn how to do, either consciously or subconsciously, is claim illness.

01:30:13.400 And this is a diagnosable thing when it happens really bad. So malingering is like when someone

01:30:18.860 comes in, when a homeless person comes into the emergency room and says, I'm really suicidal,

01:30:24.220 I'm going to kill myself. And it's negative 10 degrees outside and I'm working in downtown Boston

01:30:29.120 and they have nowhere to stay. That's malingering, right? Maybe. So we have to assess them

01:30:34.380 diagnostically to see if it's malingering or not. So what I'm seeing is happening a lot is that people

01:30:41.000 are using illness as an excuse. And my kind of stance on this as a psychiatrist is kind of hard

01:30:48.000 for a lot of people to hear, but this is, I think, what is acceptable. So, you know, I once had a patient

01:30:53.100 who had bipolar disorder and they would become manic and then they would do lots of really

01:30:58.300 inappropriate things. They would gamble. They would start to give their possessions away to

01:31:02.680 homeless people. They would invite homeless people to come to their house, to stay in their house

01:31:07.880 because they wanted to be like, you know, so caring and stuff like that. They're manic.

01:31:11.660 And so this person's partner comes home with their young child. And when they come home with their

01:31:18.420 one young child, there's like three homeless people like in their home and the partner is like,

01:31:25.800 what the hell is going on? So later on, this person said, you know, it's not my fault. I'm manic.

01:31:30.880 And generally speaking, that's true, right? So we as a society acknowledge that if someone is acutely

01:31:37.020 manic, they're behaving in ways that they really can't control. Like it's not controllable. There's a lot

01:31:43.160 of evidence of that. So the problem though, is that just because you don't, you can't control

01:31:50.420 your behavior when you are manic doesn't mean that this isn't your fault. There's a subtlety and a

01:31:55.320 nuance here that's really important. How did you get manic in the first place? Did you stop taking

01:32:00.480 your medication? Did you stop going to therapy? Did you start staying up super late? Did you start

01:32:05.520 using substances? So one of the most challenging things as a psychiatrist is navigating this sort of like,

01:32:12.580 okay, you're not responsible for what you do when you're fucking high out of your mind on K2.

01:32:19.080 But are you responsible for using K2 in the first place? Absolutely. Right? So I think what's happening

01:32:25.020 right now is, is since we give so many people a pass for being mentally ill, which I think we should

01:32:30.380 continue to do, I think we should like, when some people absolutely, I know, I know, I know, I know. Like I said,

01:32:36.560 I agree with 50% of what you said. I think when people are acutely ill, and when they're really

01:32:42.940 struggling, I think that their capability to do certain things is severely impaired.

01:32:48.880 I think we should give people a pass for that. But what I don't think we should do is let that

01:32:54.160 be an excuse. So when someone says, you know, oh, I'm depressed, it's not my fault. My question to

01:32:59.380 them is like, what's your plan to deal with the depression? Fine. In this moment, on this day,

01:33:03.820 it's not your fault. What are you going to do tomorrow? What are you going to do the next week?

01:33:07.500 What are you going to do the next month? Are you being responsible in tackling your depression?

01:33:13.920 And what I tend to find is that like a lot of people, thankfully, most of the people that I've

01:33:19.140 had the privilege of working with, and that's why I like working with them. That's why I have

01:33:23.540 compassion for them. That's why I have latitude for them, because they put in the effort where it

01:33:26.940 counts. They're not weak, right? They like try. And if despite the fact that they're doing everything

01:33:32.680 that they're supposed to be doing, sometimes the nature of the brain is such that they flip

01:33:37.520 into these mood episodes, these manic episodes, things like that. So I think that sometimes people

01:33:42.960 do use mental illness as an excuse. It's happening more and more and more, unfortunately. And I think

01:33:49.040 that now what's happening with that's even more dangerous is like, if you try to hold someone

01:33:54.440 accountable, once they play the mental illness card, oh, yeah, I had an affair. I'm sorry,

01:33:59.280 I have this. I was manic, or I was hypomanic, or I was depressed, and I needed this. And it's not

01:34:04.120 my fault. I think that like people should still be held accountable for their actions, right? Or

01:34:08.340 like groping a woman because you have anxiety. Sure. Right. So I think that that an illness is

01:34:15.460 something that we should give some latitude for. I think these people deserve compassion. I think

01:34:19.720 they deserve help. And someone should still be held. Someone should be held appropriately

01:34:24.740 responsible for their actions. There's more coping mechanisms than ever. The biggest one that I've

01:34:29.520 noticed recently, and I don't know if you have patience to do this, but I like that you pointed

01:34:35.340 out that people search to cope rather than to improve. The biggest one that didn't exist a couple

01:34:41.280 years ago was ChatGBT. And I would say, I think 50 to 70% of women my age, girls in Gen Z, especially

01:34:49.400 in New York City, liberal cities, when they have problems in their life and in their relationship,

01:34:54.440 they go to ChatGBT because ChatGBT will validate them immediately. They'll phrase the question in a

01:35:00.060 way to where they're never responsible for what's wrong. And they'll say to ChatGBT,

01:35:08.600 this happened, it's this person's fault. And then ChatGBT will give them a list of reasons

01:35:13.460 to cope. And now that they can go to AI to validate their feelings of weakness, I think

01:35:22.680 we're going down a dangerous path to where people can avoid bearing responsibility for their own

01:35:30.400 actions even more and through a computer instantly. Yeah. So I think, so I did a super cool stream with

01:35:40.800 two of my colleagues and we basically gave it like psychiatric scenarios. And, you know, like,

01:35:47.840 so, so like we, we like took scenarios from like standardized tests or cases or whatever.

01:35:53.100 Like, so like, you know, when we were studying psychiatry, you'll have like this case or history

01:35:56.700 or whatever. And, um, it is ChatGBT was really good at pointing out a lot of problems and people's

01:36:03.700 thinking. I was quite shocked. And it was also really bad at pointing out particular things.

01:36:08.560 I think the takeaway that I have here is the utility of ChatGBT depends on the prompt engineering.

01:36:14.640 So if you ask ChatGBT, you know, if you just, so ChatGBT is very validating. That's what it does

01:36:22.720 better than everything else. And that's why people, I think, find it incredibly useful. I have found

01:36:27.400 though, that a lot of people do find it incredibly useful. And I do, I think that this is another one

01:36:32.260 of the things that I think I take issue with, with a lot of what you say. And let me know if this

01:36:35.880 rubs you the wrong way, but I think you tend to be pretty like black or white in your thinking.

01:36:40.440 So, so you'll say, I mean, you said a lot of women and I think that ChatGBT, there's even,

01:36:45.800 there's a really interesting, um, there's probably going to be studies about this now

01:36:49.120 about ChatGBT induced psychosis. So this is like a phenomenon that we're seeing where like

01:36:55.440 people will talk to ChatGBT and it keeps on reflecting back, like whatever they say,

01:37:02.140 and they're sort of really becoming delusional. Now there's a, this is where you got to be

01:37:07.220 careful, right? So this is where I think you're, you're a lot of statements that you have, I would

01:37:11.000 say, I would argue are missing some nuance. And I think you're missing stuff. I would say not that

01:37:16.860 I'm you're wrong, but just based on my experience, which is that the question is if you have someone

01:37:21.600 who is in prodromal psychosis, which means the early stages, the incubation period of psychosis,

01:37:27.700 and you give him ChatGBT, I think there's a very good chance that these people are like on the path

01:37:33.740 to psychosis and it accelerates it as opposed to creates it. We're not sure. That's why data is

01:37:39.880 important, which brings me to another point that I think is important to understand, which is that I

01:37:45.760 think, you know, you said you've never seen it. And I think that like generally speaking, when it

01:37:50.600 comes to influencers and especially polarizing influencers. Now, I don't know what your social life

01:37:56.520 is like and things like that. I think there's going to be a huge selection bias with like who you

01:38:02.880 encounter, right? And that's why I like data as opposed to anecdotes. So even one of the advantages

01:38:09.120 of being a physician is when I work in the Massachusetts General Hospital emergency room, all kinds of

01:38:14.180 random people are showing up, right? So in my private practice, I have people who are like founders

01:38:19.960 from MIT incubators coming in for whatever. I have degenerate gamers, I have a particular slice of the

01:38:25.780 world that is coming to see me. But when I work in an emergency room, I'm seeing all kinds of people

01:38:31.080 who have all kinds of experiences. And I think a lot of your perspectives on mental illness, Lynn,

01:38:36.120 like the way that you sort of describe depression, I think that there's this is one point that I wanted

01:38:40.780 to bring up. I think it would be very enlightening for you if you could take someone who is healthy now

01:38:48.600 and talk to them and really listen about their experience of depression.

01:38:54.060 So I think a lot of the statements that you make about depression,

01:38:57.520 my interpretation of it is that your phenomenological experience of your struggles

01:39:04.760 is like very different from theirs.

01:39:08.080 So when you talk about the adaptive thinking and things like that, and like you used to be depressed,

01:39:14.220 you used to be sad, you kind of brought yourself out of it.

01:39:16.860 I kind of agree, like I'm not disagreeing. I think a lot of people who are depressed

01:39:20.580 are in similar situations as yours. I don't think it's monolithic.

01:39:24.240 I didn't say I was depressed. I said I was introspective and

01:39:27.160 more introverted.

01:39:29.780 So you had whatever your mental state was and you used a particular strategy to overcome that mental

01:39:38.180 state, right? And the way that you talk about that mental state and the way that you describe

01:39:43.960 people who have that mental state, I think there's a variety of people who claim they're depressed.

01:39:49.960 Many of them may have something in the ballpark of what you had, probably also in the ballpark of

01:39:55.260 what I had when I was in my low points. And I think there are some people who have a very,

01:40:01.560 very different experience. Like the, the, the, what it's like to be inside their head

01:40:07.180 is way more like intractable. Like so, so very severe depression can cross over into things like

01:40:16.460 psychosis and delusions. And so I think some people are just so depressed and it's hard to like

01:40:22.120 imagine. I don't think most human beings would understand what this feels like until you've

01:40:28.700 sat with these people and you recognize this person isn't weak. This person isn't stupid.

01:40:33.120 This person is trying to cope. But like when you cope in a particular way, your mind listens to you.

01:40:40.780 So there are some people whose minds don't listen to them. So when you try the techniques that you're

01:40:48.120 doing, they like, it just doesn't work. It kind of bounces. So they have no, so if your minds,

01:40:54.760 if their minds don't listen to them, then how are they alive? Like that's the only thing that we

01:41:00.220 have complete control over. If we're certain of anything, if we're sort of anything is that we

01:41:05.200 can control our thoughts and our minds. And if we're not even, you can't control your thoughts.

01:41:09.780 Absolutely. You can. No, you can't.

01:41:12.120 I just showed you an example. You said like, that makes me sad. And I said, it is what it is.

01:41:16.260 That was an example of controlling the state of mind and what you think. If you, yeah,

01:41:20.140 you can't, you see, you don't think that you, my mistake, my mistake, my mistake. I was,

01:41:26.020 I was taking an issue with a more of the absolutist. I was interpreting that as an absolute statement,

01:41:31.820 which is a mistake of my interpretation. So for example, there are modifications and attempts

01:41:37.200 to control your mind. You can send signals to your mind and the mind at times will be more

01:41:43.580 responsive and at times will be less responsive, right? There's a spectrum. And, and ideally the

01:41:49.700 healthier you are, the more pliable your mind is. But there, there's, there's plenty of evidence

01:41:54.780 that shows that some people's minds are more intractable. Their, their patterns of their habitual

01:42:00.840 forms of thinking are a lot more concrete and a lot less modifiable. So a really good example of

01:42:08.800 this is like body dysmorphia, where if you take people with like really, really, really severe

01:42:13.680 body dysmorphia, really severe eating disorders, their mind is like, it's like made of stone.

01:42:19.620 Like you can try to modify it as much as you want, but like, it just doesn't shift. Like,

01:42:24.080 and you have to do all kinds of weird, but it doesn't start that way. It doesn't, it goes,

01:42:29.000 it's a path. It's a slow dissolution. I, I, I think so. I think so. So I, I think that there's,

01:42:35.840 I hope so. But, but there's, there's some, like you kind of said, there's environment. And I think

01:42:41.180 a big part of the environment is the way that you, you treat your mind. Um, uh, yes, I, I think that

01:42:47.840 it, it kind of evolves in that. I think it gets more concrete over time. And I think if you intervene

01:42:52.700 with those people early in a different way, then hopefully it would not evolve in that way. But we

01:43:00.260 also do know that there's like genetic predispositions for like rigidity of thinking.

01:43:07.340 So I think you're quite cognitively flexible, which is something, like I said, I've said a couple of

01:43:11.360 times, I really respect about you, but I think that your, your cognitive flexibility is part of

01:43:15.820 the reason why your methodologies work really well, right? So you're, you have, you've been dealt a

01:43:20.360 certain hand of cards in your brain. I also, you keep saying that you think you disagree with 50%

01:43:26.900 of what I say. I don't know if you necessarily disagree. I just think that you don't see the

01:43:31.780 nuance of what I'm saying because I'm saying very blanket statements. And I do generalize a lot when I

01:43:37.680 speak and I speak for, yeah, which is, I don't know if there's disagreement. It's just, uh,

01:43:44.780 maybe it's a total difference or, but yeah, so I, I, I, I think that I would completely agree that

01:43:51.260 as we add more and more nuance to the conversation, I think we get closer and closer together.

01:43:59.160 Absolutely.

01:44:01.940 Um, last, a couple, a couple of other points. So just about the, the serotonin deficiency hypothesis.

01:44:08.460 So I think just to clarify, psychotherapists may not be in favor of that hypothesis. It's usually

01:44:16.480 psychiatrists that are. So psychotherapists of anything, you know, if there's a group of people

01:44:21.760 on the planet who doesn't believe in the serotonin hypothesis, there's a really good chance that

01:44:28.240 there's a psychotherapist because they're like, some of them are trained in like union analysis

01:44:32.580 and Freudian analysis, and they think all kinds of different things. They don't think it can be,

01:44:36.140 I mean, I'm lumping them all together, but many of them don't believe in that or don't attribute

01:44:40.860 that much to it. Now, I think that there, there very well may be a serotonin imbalance in the brain

01:44:46.100 when it comes to something like a mood disorder. But I also think, I don't know if this makes sense,

01:44:52.360 that if you do cognitive things like what you're doing, I think that will affect, that will alter that

01:44:58.640 not, I must be damn near 100% correct. If you do the things that you're doing, that will alter the

01:45:05.960 serotonin transmission in your brain. I feel incredibly confident in that statement. So I think there's

01:45:11.000 what happened with the whole serotonin thing. That was something, and you're, you're, you're kind of

01:45:16.040 right about this. I think what really happened there is we were looking for a way to de-stigmatize

01:45:21.760 mental illness. So we were looking for a way because everyone used to blame themselves for

01:45:26.700 mental illness. They thought that things like mood disorders or stuff like that were weakness.

01:45:31.660 And so we, as a medical community, once we figured out, oh, there's a mechanism here,

01:45:37.820 there's treatments here, we wanted people to stop stigmatizing it as weakness. So we offered this

01:45:43.340 explanation of there's a chemical imbalance in your brain. And when we say there's a chemical

01:45:48.000 imbalance in your brain, it's sort of like, it's not your fault, which is sort of what we were trying

01:45:52.400 to do, right? Because we didn't want to blame themselves because something is going on. It's

01:45:55.820 really not your fault. But then what happened is we made a big mistake, which is that we told people

01:46:00.600 it's not your fault. And then everyone started really internalizing. It's not my fault. So not my

01:46:06.400 fault, whatever. So the pendulum is swinging back the other way. Yeah. So I, I, I would, you know,

01:46:12.520 I would say that most people, like, I remember I was in an interview at UCLA for my psychiatry

01:46:21.820 residency. The person that I was interviewing, I mentioned the serotonin deficiency. And he was

01:46:28.020 like, hold on a second. Why do you think that people with depression are deficient in serotonin?

01:46:33.680 And I was like, well, isn't that what we think? And he's like, actually, there's very little

01:46:36.980 evidence for it. We had, it was a wonderful interview. He's a wonderful person. So I think that

01:46:41.580 generally speaking, the more knowledgeable you are, I think we sort of know that that's

01:46:45.500 like just a piece of the puzzle. It's not that it's right or wrong. It's that it's like

01:46:49.800 woefully incomplete to describe a complex human being. But I think it's something that we did

01:47:00.600 sort of like parrot the party line. Now, if you're, I'm also not quite on, on your level,

01:47:07.480 and maybe there's a lot of nuance there that there's a lot of like, you know, money to be

01:47:10.760 made. And there absolutely is. And pharma does shady things. Very possible that when pharma was

01:47:16.140 talking about fluoxetine and whatever, they were kind of pushing this and saying that this will fix

01:47:20.700 it. I think aftermarket studies on SSRIs have shown that it's not nearly as effective as what

01:47:26.440 we thought it was. In my clinical experience, SSRIs are incredibly helpful and arguably life-changing

01:47:33.000 for about a third of people who get diagnosed with depression. A third of people, it doesn't really

01:47:38.420 help at all. Or is it even harmful? And a third of people is kind of like, we're not quite sure.

01:47:43.080 Maybe it has a mild to a moderate effect.

01:47:48.200 What about fatherhood? How much serotonin do you get?

01:47:50.860 What about fatherhood?

01:47:51.260 How much serotonin does that increase?

01:47:53.740 If you do it right, a ton. So serotonin, this is kind of my take. So I've sort of noticed there's

01:48:05.340 an inverse relationship between serotonin and dopamine. So the more dopaminergic activities that

01:48:11.920 you do, the more your serotonin will decrease. It doesn't actually happen that way. So I'm sort of

01:48:17.580 talking about it in a functional model style way. So no one is measuring, you know, intracellular

01:48:24.640 serotonin concentration or synaptic serotonin concentration when I say these things. But

01:48:30.080 what I sort of observe is when you do a lot of stuff that gives you dopamine, whether that's play

01:48:33.580 video games, watch pornography, do drugs, whatever.

01:48:36.360 So short-term gratification versus long-term gratification.

01:48:40.140 Yeah. So short-term gratification is what, the more dopamine you have, then over time,

01:48:47.200 you're not going to feel good about your life. So serotonin gives you a sense of peace and

01:48:51.840 contentment, also an oversimplification. Dopamine gives you a sense of pleasure, right? Those are

01:48:57.300 two different qualitative things. And the more dopaminergic you are, generally speaking,

01:49:02.380 the less serotonin you'll have. Whereas if you look at like what gives people serotonin,

01:49:09.100 it's like if you work hard over the course of a day, you feel good about it at the end of the day.

01:49:17.500 That doesn't mean that you had fun. It's not fun. It's feeling content. You're like, oh man,

01:49:22.260 like when you hit, when you hit the sack and you're tired because you fucking grind it a lot and you have

01:49:26.960 work that you can be proud of. When you have autonomy and the ability to self-direct, when you

01:49:32.620 do things that are meaningful to you, you get serotonin. Now there's complications there because

01:49:38.800 you know, when you're a father, frequently you're not sleeping very much, like especially in the early

01:49:43.400 years. And so if you're not sleeping well, you know, your serotonin levels may be altered or things

01:49:48.320 like that. But I think generally speaking, I would say that if you do it in a healthy way and if you're

01:49:54.140 lucky enough to have a kid who's like relatively like easy to handle and not even easy to handle

01:50:01.400 is just not really hard to handle, then I think fatherhood has profound positive effects on your

01:50:06.920 serotonin and your sense of contentment and peace in life. But if you're not careful and you just sort

01:50:13.200 of go through the motions of fatherhood and make sacrifice little chunks of yourself to being a

01:50:18.900 parent over an extended period of time, you may wind up in a midlife crisis, going through a

01:50:25.100 divorce, dating someone 15 years younger, getting a hair transplant, getting a lease on a fancy sports

01:50:32.200 car. At a Coldplay concert. That's why I had this tweet blow up two days ago. I said, I want to read,

01:50:39.000 I want to see it because I think it was worded really well. And it does relate to what you do

01:50:44.100 and content creators. So I tweeted, I said, PewDiePie ripped a hard R then escaped this gay

01:50:51.520 world to start a family. A decade later, all of his peers stare soullessly into the camera to make

01:50:56.380 AdSense from drama slop to fund their ozempic addiction and legal battles with former friends.

01:51:01.440 Shout out to PewDiePie. And this blew up. And I think it obviously I'm joking around like he ripped

01:51:07.900 a hard R. That's not like something commendable. But it's an example of saying something you're not

01:51:12.720 supposed to say, going against the grain. And then he left, he moved to Japan, started a family,

01:51:17.460 and it seems like he's living a much more fulfilling life away from the internet. While

01:51:20.840 all of his peers, they are on SSRIs, they're on ozempic, they're getting the hair transplant,

01:51:26.800 and they're still turning it on. Hey, you two, what's up? Today, I'm going to sue somebody who

01:51:33.060 used to be my best friend and spend three hours reading Reddit comments and regurgitating drama

01:51:38.520 slop for parasocials who are also in the same predicament. And yes, they have money, but they're

01:51:42.700 also still in this world and they don't have an escape route. And I commend someone like PewDiePie,

01:51:49.440 his life trajectory is like, that sounds so nice to be able to have an exit route. Because people

01:51:57.080 who don't rip a hard R or get banned the way I do, they're just kind of trapped. And I think a good

01:52:03.400 example of somebody like that is someone like iDubbs, for example, who used to be an edgy YouTuber who

01:52:10.220 would go against the grain and was saying things and, you know, speaking to the youth in a way that

01:52:15.840 that was outside, like people came to content creators to get non-traditional forms of entertainment

01:52:21.620 and media. And then he became like, he just became the machine. He came, he became mainstream news.

01:52:28.000 And now he just completely did a 180. He's clearly like very upset with his life. He's probably on

01:52:33.280 antidepressants. And in a way to go full circle with this, the blessing in all this is that the

01:52:40.180 fact that I'm banned is that I have an exit strategy that other people don't have. If they're still in

01:52:45.320 this world forever, then they have to play the PR route. And I, in a way I like being the canceled

01:52:49.900 guy because I don't have to jump through the same hula hoops that the other creators do. Being an

01:52:54.460 outsider, I can be truthful. I could be honest. I don't have to play the public relations game and

01:52:59.740 not say this and I'd not be deemed as this phobic or that phobic or a conspiracy theorist. I can be

01:53:05.200 myself and express myself in a more authentic way. And eventually when I do want to get the

01:53:10.900 serotonin from having a family and from exiting, it's going to be much easier and it's going to be

01:53:16.860 an easier out. Cause I don't want to be like, I see those older YouTubers in their thirties and

01:53:23.680 forties who are still turning on the camera to do absolute slap content. And I think that that's

01:53:28.540 one of the worst existence as possible, not just because they're clearly unhappy, but they're not

01:53:33.080 making anybody better than themselves. Their whole audience is full of depressed people who

01:53:36.880 are too invested in the lives of people that they're never going to meet or should be investing

01:53:42.000 into at all. These are just shit people overall. So I do think that's, that is a blessing. And also

01:53:49.080 partly saying it is what it is. Maybe that these challenges that I face are, I can be grateful for

01:53:55.000 because it's giving me obstacles that other people haven't faced and, and an exit strategy

01:54:01.720 so that eventually, you know, I, I can't have that, that, that family and escape this gay world.

01:54:10.420 Okay.

01:54:14.420 What?

01:54:14.900 I understand what you said.

01:54:19.820 What are you looking for from me in terms of response and how, how it goes, it goes back

01:54:28.480 to when you're like, uh, you said you, um, that makes me sad. And it's like, maybe like,

01:54:33.480 obviously you, you could see that there's a point of reflection there and stuff like this,

01:54:37.760 but I'm my point, I say to say like, maybe this, these challenges are, are a blessing as

01:54:42.960 well. I think like in Islam, we say, alhamdulillah for everything, the good and the bad, because

01:54:47.960 there's, there's always a, there's a, there's positives in the negatives and maybe the negatives

01:54:53.280 aren't really negatives, but they are positives. And I'm glad to, I'm saying it to say like,

01:55:00.160 I'm glad to not be those people that believe everything that we're told to believe because

01:55:04.340 they get trapped in this, in this cycle of long-term negativity. And they just, I hate

01:55:11.780 seeing that person turn on the camera and just do this soulless, those epic stare, you

01:55:16.420 know, and although they have the platforms that I don't have, I think they have less

01:55:21.100 of their own soul.

01:55:25.740 Why do you think your mind goes to analyze these people in this way?

01:55:32.820 Because I see them as someone who started on the same path that I was on. Maybe they started

01:55:37.860 YouTube a little earlier than me around the same time. And it's an easy comparison to make.

01:55:42.140 Obviously comparison is a thief of joy, but I see that as like, this is the route that

01:55:46.620 I could have taken. And am I happier with the route that I'm in or, or do I want what

01:55:53.900 they have? And I look what they have and I don't want it. I'm very happy where I am.

01:55:58.380 So, so since you, since you don't want it and you're very happy with what, where you are,

01:56:02.940 what would happen if you weren't happy with where you are?

01:56:11.100 I would reevaluate. And I, I, I see, I see that in a lot of them. I think that they're

01:56:18.980 extremely unhappy, but because of the coping mechanisms that have been provided to us by

01:56:22.960 Big Pharma and ChatGPT, they don't reevaluate, they don't progress and they just cope more.

01:56:31.120 So Sneeko, one thing you've got to be careful about is devaluing things that you lost.

01:56:39.480 So one, one very, very interesting mechanism of the mind, right? So maybe this is something

01:56:45.200 you can empathize with. So, you know, when my friends and I liked a girl, we would sometimes

01:56:53.340 get up the balls to ask her out. And then if she said no, right, we're, we're butthurt.

01:56:59.700 That fat lesbian, she's fat and stupid anyway. Fuck that bitch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's coping.

01:57:05.340 That's also, that's also coping.

01:57:07.540 So, so, and like, I, I think that there's a parallel between that and what you're doing

01:57:14.080 with a couple of really important differences. But I, I think that like, so what, what I find

01:57:20.480 interesting is the direction that you go. Like, why do you choose to compare yourself to these people?

01:57:25.780 And you say, this thing is negative. So there's a lot of good adaptation in there. I think you're

01:57:29.940 correct that a lot of these people feel trapped. A lot of them feel unhappy, but I think you've got

01:57:35.200 to be super careful because what you're basically like, I don't know, this is so weird, right? So,

01:57:42.420 so for me, what I pay attention to is what people say that is completely unprompted.

01:57:47.080 I didn't ask you about this. And not that I'm, I'm happy you shared it. I really am. And I'm glad

01:57:53.280 we're having this conversation, but I think it's like, you made this tweet. This is what your mind

01:57:58.260 generated, right? Your mind is looking at these comparisons. Your mind, and I think this is what's

01:58:04.120 kind of scary and good and healthy. And I think it's wonderful that we're talking about this

01:58:07.940 because like, here you are comparing yourself to all of the YouTubers who didn't get banned,

01:58:13.660 who have the luxury of being soulless Ozempic bots and still having tons of content creators and

01:58:20.180 being able to stream on YouTube and being able to stream on Twitch, all the things that you've

01:58:24.100 been denied. And it can be really hard. So, so they have something you don't have. And so you've

01:58:33.600 got to be careful when you devalue them. Right. But I'm not completely devaluing it. Okay.

01:58:38.480 But I, I, I, please, please one second. Okay. Go ahead. Go ahead. Okay. No, no, go ahead.

01:58:44.980 I'm seeing the nuance, but I'm taking a page out of your book in a way. I'm seeing the nuance of it.

01:58:49.740 Yes. I want those platforms, but also there's a blessing in disguise. I'm not completely,

01:58:53.260 obviously it would be better. I would prefer having it, but in a way, maybe I was prevent,

01:58:57.600 this was a trap that I was able to overstep. I, this trap was prevented for me.

01:59:02.460 I think, I, I, I think that there's a lot of, it could be both.

01:59:07.660 It absolutely can be both. So here's the hard question. Do you want a hard question?

01:59:11.280 Yes.

01:59:14.640 Are you jealous of them? No.

01:59:18.960 If you were jealous of them, would you let yourself be jealous of them?

01:59:24.000 No. Could you handle, could you admit to yourself or the rest of the world if you were

01:59:30.180 jealous of them? No.

01:59:38.560 As in you wouldn't let yourself, I wouldn't let myself show jealousy. No.

01:59:43.300 Right. So like you wouldn't even let yourself feel it internally.

01:59:49.300 No, I could feel it internally, but I wouldn't express that publicly.

01:59:53.900 Okay. Cause I, I, I think, I, I think what I get from you is resentment.

02:00:00.180 And, and I, I get, and I, I don't think you're wrong, right? So this is what's so sneaky about the

02:00:05.260 mind when it's, when it's like well-developed is that it's not going to tell you false things.

02:00:10.520 It's just going to tell you incomplete things. So are a lot of people trapped in content creation

02:00:16.200 that they hate? Absolutely. I have worked with a ton of them.

02:00:19.960 So here are a couple of things that I think are happening, thankfully.

02:00:26.100 So content creation just blew up and no one knew how to do it right. People are learning

02:00:31.900 very, very, very quickly how to do it right, how to do it in a healthy way.

02:00:36.680 So you have a lot of YouTubers who are soulless, on SSRIs, Ozempic, whatever, but then you

02:00:44.220 have a ton of YouTubers who are not those things, who are not suing their best friends. And I don't,

02:00:49.260 I mean, that's a weird example. I've not really heard of that very much, but like you make it

02:00:53.460 sound like it's a common thing. Does that happen a lot?

02:00:55.440 Yeah. It's becoming increasingly common now for the, the main core of OG YouTubers.

02:01:02.480 Right. So, so, but like, I mean, like I, I spend a lot of time, you know, working with

02:01:07.800 YouTubers, collabing with YouTubers, whatever. And like a lot of them are like learning how

02:01:12.020 to live their best lives. Like a, a buddy of mine, you know, is a YouTuber grew up in

02:01:17.200 a particular country, is married, has a kid. He's a digital nomad. They, he, him, his wife

02:01:23.060 and his kid just moved to a random ass country that they want to live. Haven't, I mean, he makes

02:01:27.880 plenty of money, but like, you know, has a incredibly nice standard of living is saving a ton

02:01:32.200 of money. And then he like, I'm sure he'll move when he feels like it. Right. So, so like

02:01:36.380 what's, what's like PewDiePie maybe was one of the early ones, but I would say a ton of

02:01:41.520 YouTubers are learning how to do that. They're learning how to do it in a healthy way. The

02:01:47.800 OG YouTubers and especially the OG Twitch streamers, all of us are like a little bit

02:01:52.960 degenerate, but what's starting to happen is there's a ton of professionalism coming into,

02:01:57.620 into content creation. You know, VidCon got acquired by the people who own CAN, the film

02:02:04.240 festival. So a lot of traditional media is coming in. A lot of like structure is coming in. A lot of

02:02:09.160 professionalism is coming in. There's, you know, we get sometimes approached about, you know, doing

02:02:14.120 like, like a, you know, people approach us, right? Like people like YouTube and meta. So we, we built

02:02:21.460 something for meta for their content creators so that they could be like, get some, some basic

02:02:26.840 understanding of like mental health and whatever. So I, I think that like, this is true that there's

02:02:31.600 a lot of degenerate YouTubers or Twitch streamers or whatever who are struggling and, or have the

02:02:36.100 soulless Ozempic stare or whatever. But then there's actually like, I would say that the tide is

02:02:40.160 shifting pretty rapidly. And the thing is, if we were talking about incredibly, incredibly successful

02:02:45.760 YouTubers, I think that they're, in order to cut it for this long and not fall apart, you have to

02:02:52.740 learn how to be resilient. That's what I'm seeing more and more is that you have to learn,

02:02:56.700 some kind of work-life balance in order to make it work and continue to produce high quality content.

02:03:03.020 But I've, I've worked with plenty who are struggling and plenty who are not. And the most

02:03:08.540 gratifying thing is that many of the people that I work with who are struggling after some degree of

02:03:13.240 work, they don't struggle anymore. Like they, they learn and they adapt and they grow. And I think it's

02:03:18.400 really challenging because a lot of these people start when they're very young. So one of the things

02:03:23.440 that I'm really grateful for, and really like honestly lucky, is that I was like a relatively

02:03:28.820 formed human being before I ever started streaming on Twitch. I started streaming on Twitch when I was

02:03:35.080 36. And like, at that point, I was faculty at Harvard Medical School and married and had two kids.

02:03:43.480 Right. So like I had, I had my difficult years and I was confident in who I was and had plenty of like

02:03:51.240 ego strength and things like that in a good way. Whereas it's, it's really like not dangerous or sad,

02:03:57.460 but it's, it's like, it's kind of scary that a lot of these people start yourself included.

02:04:01.700 Right. So you say you're 26 and you started on YouTube when you were 13, you're 13.

02:04:06.480 I mean, technically I started when I was 11, but I started my channel, uh, the channel that I used

02:04:11.360 for years when I was four, I would say 14, I really took it to started taking. So, so the way

02:04:15.020 you've developed, before I was in, uh, you know, before I hit puberty, like my early voices, my balls

02:04:19.880 didn't drop. Absolutely. Right. So, so, so your developmental years were shaped to a certain degree by

02:04:28.260 content creation. Absolutely. And what we know from a lot of child celebrities is when you're in the

02:04:33.760 public spotlight, the human brain is not designed to be famous when you're 14. So, and when you're

02:04:40.160 famous at 14, there are certain psychological impacts, which once again, I don't think are

02:04:44.960 like weakness or anything like that. Like this just shapes you, like your circumstances shape you.

02:04:49.780 And it's really sad to see, like, you know, sometimes I'll see these like clips and stuff

02:04:53.580 on Reddit of like some of these child stars that are like in puberty and stuff. And there's a lot of

02:04:59.180 really successful musicians who started out like when they were teenagers and boy, did they get

02:05:04.420 like sexualized and judged in a way that like, is just really, really scary. Like, and these people

02:05:10.280 are struggle so much. And I don't want to like, I mean, I, I see all kinds of problems that, you know,

02:05:16.140 when I, when I look at a celebrity and they're doing particular things or saying certain things,

02:05:19.900 I feel like I have some insight. I'm pretty sure my colleagues have similar insights. I've talked

02:05:24.960 about it with some people, but like, you know, we can see how, and it's not this person's fault

02:05:29.480 that they're narcissistic. They just grew up in the spotlight and that's what the spotlight does to

02:05:33.340 you. And that's why so many celebrities and musicians are, are screwed up because they're

02:05:39.580 just like the human mind is we, we, our brain evolved to exist in communities of like 300 people

02:05:46.280 being judged by millions of people. And here's the really damning thing.

02:05:50.360 So if a million, the brain doesn't think in terms of percentages. So if a million people like you

02:05:56.740 and a hundred people absolutely loathe you, the, the hurt from the hundred people is not outweighed

02:06:05.540 naturally by the nine, 900,000, nine, 999,000 people that like, very good point. And there's a really,

02:06:14.940 I mean, I'm sure you understand this because it's crazy. You talk to anyone who live streams,

02:06:19.880 if you read your, your chat, you're not reading every message, but if there's a dangerous message,

02:06:25.960 your brain will flag it immediately. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? Right. Right.

02:06:30.580 So it's a scrolling by faster than you can read, but they say the one thing you're worried about

02:06:35.360 and your brain is like, I see, I see. Right. So, so our brain has this kind of danger detecting

02:06:42.100 filter built in, which means that if a hundred people hate you, all it really takes is like one

02:06:48.500 person to stalk you, troll you, whatever. And like one person can screw up your life.

02:06:54.380 And the really damaging thing about being a content creator is if you get big,

02:06:58.040 you will absolutely attract the minimum number of people to screw up your life.

02:07:08.020 I mean, you asked me about fatherhood. I went and ended up here because you mentioned the PewDiePie

02:07:11.940 thing, but I think you've got to be.

02:07:13.640 So, okay. A more specific question is, Dr. K., do you think I'm coping?

02:07:22.860 You know the answer.

02:07:29.120 I don't think I'm coping.

02:07:31.080 Okay.

02:07:31.440 I think, I think there's some coping. I think it's adaptive coping.

02:07:38.940 Okay. But is it, is it more, is it, is it more coping than what is, is it borderline unhealthy

02:07:46.740 or more than the average person or anything?

02:07:49.860 I think it's incredibly healthy. I think that being able to look at your negative circumstances

02:07:54.600 and start to see this as part of your path in life that God put you on and that there

02:07:59.880 are some advantages that you have that other people don't have, I think is very healthy.

02:08:03.400 To look at your situation and instead of being butthurt and depressed about it, saying like,

02:08:09.240 okay, I've got some advantages that other people don't have, even though my life is hard

02:08:12.880 and I'm going to play to my strengths because now I have been banned from most of the major

02:08:17.620 platforms out there. Like, I think that's the right strategy.

02:08:21.420 That's what I do. That's what I just explained.

02:08:22.640 I know.

02:08:24.560 So how is that cope? If that's dealing with it?

02:08:27.040 That's cope. That's coping.

02:08:29.760 Okay.

02:08:30.320 Oh, okay.

02:08:31.120 Oh, okay.

02:08:31.620 Oh, okay. Fine, fine. Fine, fine. But coping has a negative connotation.

02:08:34.540 My mistake. My mistake. Let me, let me explain.

02:08:37.700 So, so I think that there is cope. You're doing both. So you're coping, right? So I think that

02:08:41.980 you're devaluing, you're making, your, your, your mind is very sensitive and is devaluing of many

02:08:50.200 people that I think that you are a little bit frustrated with a little bit. You're more than a

02:08:55.860 little bit. You're very frustrated. There's some, there's some negative valence of emotion towards

02:09:01.140 those people. Sure.

02:09:02.340 I think jealousy is the most common thing, but I don't think you experience it as jealousy. I think

02:09:07.360 it's more like, you're not like jealous of those people. You don't want their fucking lives. But I

02:09:12.060 think there's a part of you that grates on the inside because they get, they're allowed to do this

02:09:17.540 crap and you're not. I think there's more resentment than jealousy. And I think you have the right kind of

02:09:25.200 adaptation for moving forward. So I think there's that cope and there's some copium energy in that

02:09:32.380 tweet. Okay. But I think that the, the, remember coping is only unhealthy if you don't do the second

02:09:38.400 part. I think you're doing the second part, which is like, okay, now that I'm in this situation,

02:09:43.520 how do I make the most of it? So I think there's adaptive coping here, but I think there's coping.

02:09:50.080 And I think if you're really honest with yourself, when maybe you are, and maybe you're not in public or

02:09:54.820 whatever, I think you, you feel like you've gotten a raw deal, but also I, and some of these, I do,

02:10:02.240 I do think that, but I'm also, some of these fuckers who are making not, they're doing a lot

02:10:10.340 of stupid stuff, but they're not making mistakes nearly. They're making way stupider mistakes than

02:10:15.240 you are. They're making way bigger mistakes in some dimension than you are. And they still get to do

02:10:20.040 this stuff. And you don't, I think that's somewhere within you. Fair. But again, I'll reiterate,

02:10:27.680 I'm also appreciative of this position because it allows me to travel down a road that other people

02:10:33.760 haven't. Absolutely. It opens new doors and it's mentally simulating. And one of the biggest fears

02:10:39.660 I have obviously after God is boredom. I don't want a life where I appreciate the obstacles because it

02:10:48.440 makes life interesting and worth living. And I never wanted to have a mediocre, you know, redundant,

02:10:56.600 repetitive life. So I appreciate it. And I asked that question because cope has a negative connotation.

02:11:03.360 And I think the way I was asking it was, am I, I think because most people use chat to cope with,

02:11:10.140 they want to live with their negativity in a way where other people can adjust to it.

02:11:16.160 I, but I think we've differentiated the difference between healthy coping or adaptive coping and just

02:11:22.000 bullshitting yourself and being delusional. You think that my coping is leading. Well,

02:11:26.260 I think that the adaptive coping is helping me progress and become better. Many people can cope

02:11:34.560 and just become delusional. Absolutely. So I think you have a lot of adaptive coping, right? So I think

02:11:40.880 you've, you've rolled with the punches and, and, and you're leaning into things. I think your situation

02:11:47.920 is, I think you're quite restricted. I think your options are limited and, and you're fighting an uphill

02:11:54.420 battle as a content creator. Um, and, and I think that's challenging. And I think you're able to

02:12:01.980 not get, um, how can I say this? And I think this is what you mean by coping, but, uh, you know,

02:12:08.460 so I, I think you have, you've been hurt, but you're far from defeated. I think you're actually

02:12:13.880 discovering a new kind of strength, which will move you hopefully forward in the right direction.

02:12:18.500 And I think you've just got to be careful about, cause I, I think what's going to happen

02:12:24.060 is, and this could be happening, right? So, so when you do, when, not you, but when people do this

02:12:30.840 kind of coping, they start to, there's like some amount of weird psychological things that can happen

02:12:37.740 like projection. So one thing that can happen is the weakness that you don't allow yourself to feel.

02:12:44.280 You start to loathe when you see it in other people. So like this kind of stuff, and this is

02:12:50.680 what, why I think that overall, like integrating who you are completely is the healthy thing to do.

02:12:58.560 I think integration is the goal. Don't sever a part of yourself because if you, that, that part of

02:13:04.260 yourself will live in your subconscious and will shape what comes out of your mind without your

02:13:10.320 knowledge. So for example, you made this tweet. I think there's a lot that's true in this tweet,

02:13:16.040 but why did you choose these particular people and these particular aspects of them, as opposed to

02:13:23.360 the million combinations of things that you could take issue with, right? So some part of your brain

02:13:29.800 is selecting this. Now, how does the brain decide whether you're talking about fat people or men or

02:13:36.900 women or this ethnicity or that ethnicity? And this is something that you can see clear as day,

02:13:42.620 right? And, and there's a, there's really interesting, I mean, like, so there's another

02:13:47.820 psychological defense mechanism called reaction formation, which is when we, when there's a part

02:13:52.200 of ourselves that we don't like, that we know is a part of us, we learn to hate that outside of us

02:14:02.180 because that's way easier than hating that inside of us. So the classic example of a reaction formation

02:14:09.640 is the homophobic homosexual. So like, I've got gay thoughts. That's really hard for me to manage.

02:14:18.160 And if I can hate gay people outside of me, then I'm certainly not gay.

02:14:22.220 That's why I have this argument with my community all the time. Cause I say, I love everyone.

02:14:26.300 And they're saying, no, we hate gay and trans people. I'm like, are you gay? Like,

02:14:29.420 why would you invest that much emotional, you know, attachment to people that don't care about

02:14:35.920 you or you don't care about? I say, I say love these people and learn to, that they're going to

02:14:40.320 exist. And like, I fucking hate them. I'm like, what does that do? It doesn't do anything. It's,

02:14:44.580 it's so stupid to, to hate something that you can't control or, you know, why as men, you should

02:14:51.120 not invest emotional energy into something that does not have a change or there's no solution to it.

02:14:59.420 Sneeko defender of the LGBTQ community was not on my 2025 bingo card.

02:15:05.540 That's going to be, I mean, that that's what I'm saying. I don't think that it's worth it. There's

02:15:09.860 no point. There's no point in hating them. And so many people in my community, like I've been arguing

02:15:14.580 with them for years about this. They're like, we, we hate them. I'm like, are you, are you gay,

02:15:19.820 bruv, bruv?

02:15:20.900 I, I, I gotta say, Sneeko, I, I, I, I think you, you gotta let yourself be better publicly.

02:15:28.640 Like, I, I think you have a lot of good stuff to offer. And I, I, I know, I know you're a

02:15:34.340 contrarian. I know you're spicy. I'm not saying give that up. I think it's beautiful. I love it.

02:15:39.320 But also like, you don't need to, and I know this is going to sound kind of condescending or

02:15:43.400 whatever, but like, I know you're concerned about, I was about to say afraid because that's really what I

02:15:47.320 think you are. Like, you're afraid to be, there's this different kind of courage, which is like

02:15:52.220 being more open, being more honest, like things like that. And, and I think your fear is not,

02:15:58.240 it's such a, you carry such a negative connotation, which is why I don't want to use the word. I think

02:16:02.620 you'd agree with the word wary, right? You're wary, you're careful. And a piece of wary or careful

02:16:08.400 is an acknowledgement that bad things could happen. And that sort of roots back in fear in some way.

02:16:13.240 Mm-hmm. And I'm not saying you're a scaredy cat or a pussy or anything like that. That's where

02:16:17.620 these associations become really important. But I, I, I think people misjudge you drastically.

02:16:23.620 Well, I mean, but here, here we go. Dr. K, this is part of the resentment and frustration is that

02:16:27.980 because I'm banned everywhere, the narrative about me is shaped in a way that I can't control.

02:16:33.100 So when people all the time, I have liberals come up to me or, you know, Zionists and they say,

02:16:38.500 you hate everyone. You hate this. I'm like, what did I say? They don't know,

02:16:41.780 but they believe it, but they don't have any reasons why, because they see more negative

02:16:46.460 things come from me from people that are dictating the narrative. So I don't, I don't have a fair

02:16:52.280 place on the social, in the social media world to explain my point of view or to present myself

02:16:58.000 in the way that can be presented when it's dominated by people that hate me and want to

02:17:01.620 make me look bad. The narrative around me is shaped as like, even early, we started off this

02:17:05.320 conversation. Like, you don't, you don't know what I've been up to for the past couple of years,

02:17:08.840 but you know, that my reputation is not the best and you know, I'm controversial. You know,

02:17:13.860 I'm a, I'm a contrarian. And you know that like, you were surprised to hear that I wasn't,

02:17:18.260 that I don't hate gay people because people, I'm not surprised. Fair, but you, you know,

02:17:26.920 you know about me from people that speak about me rather than from me. And that's because of my

02:17:32.060 position in this space. And that's, that's the frustrating part. You know, that's part of the

02:17:36.960 thing. Like, man, I I've been, I've been saying this stuff for years, but people don't choose to

02:17:40.640 listen. They choose to listen to, to what's negative and that does build resentment. And

02:17:45.580 you know, not, not that resentment does anything, but that's like, that's an honest, uh, that's just

02:17:51.720 honest. So, yeah. So, so, you know, people may read cope into those statements, but I think out of

02:17:59.340 everything that you've said, this is the thing that I have the least disagreement or least nuance.

02:18:04.020 I think we both exist in a world where it's a race to the bottom, where what, what gets views is not

02:18:11.100 the nuanced view. Like, so I was stunned. I saw a post recently on, on our subreddit about my view

02:18:18.820 about a particular thing. Okay. And I was shocked because I don't, I don't believe that at all.

02:18:24.520 Right. So, so it, and, and I think we just live in a world where like people make judgments based on

02:18:30.740 slices of who we are. And the, it, we really live in a world as content creators where nuance is not

02:18:37.600 what spreads. So there's a great quote from, from Terry Pratchett where he's, he's like a fiction

02:18:44.880 writer, but he says, you know, the, um, a lie can make its way around the world before the, the truth

02:18:50.920 gets its shoes tied. And, and so I, I think that we, we absolutely do live in a world. And I think this

02:18:56.600 is why you've, you've become so careful, right? You've had to become careful because whatever you

02:19:01.720 say is going to get clipped and shipped. And the thing though, is I'm going to tell you one

02:19:06.540 observation that I made. So you've got a, you've got an interesting opportunity. So people love to

02:19:13.640 tear me down. They're going to love to build you up. So what, what the internet responds to more than

02:19:19.640 anything else is a Delta. So the moment that you're a bad person and you continue doing bad

02:19:25.520 things, everyone's going to get bored of you. The moment that I do anything, even slightly bad,

02:19:30.580 like the more good that I do, the more people are going to enjoy tearing me down. Right. So I think

02:19:34.740 like good examples of this is if you, if you look at streamers who are like, have very good reputations,

02:19:39.320 people are going to love saying, Oh, this person is an asshole. This person actually secretly does this,

02:19:45.700 this kind of stuff. Kai Sinat is getting the, like, do you see the hate train on Kai Sinat?

02:19:50.640 No. Oh, it is brutal. Like they just do. It's so fun to hate on Kai Sinat because he has a perfect

02:19:57.940 brand image for the most part. Like as it comes to contributors, he's very well known. He just got a

02:20:02.140 Fortnite skin. And then everyone's like, you didn't donate here. You didn't do this. You're a

02:20:06.460 homophobic. Like they just, they want to, because he's on such a positive internet loves being able to

02:20:12.080 change the narrative about that. Absolutely. Absolutely. So the internet also loves

02:20:15.420 the redemption. Yeah. They do they? Yes. Can you give me an example?

02:20:24.420 Um, I mean, I'm not, let me think.

02:20:34.060 What's a redemption arc speed. Maybe the speed. Maybe. I mean, I just don't follow too many

02:20:42.820 streamers, but like, I, I'm pretty sure that, um, let me just think about there have to be like

02:20:52.920 artists. I'm just not following like pop culture. And I wonder actually, like, so I'm glad you asked

02:20:58.620 me for an example because now I'm questioning whether this is actually true. Right. So if I

02:21:03.520 have a single person, um, so I, I mean, I think generally speaking, so like maybe some musicians

02:21:12.440 and stuff, right. So who like used to use a lot of drugs, used to party a lot. And then when they

02:21:17.360 like the, when they kind of get like decent later on in life, they can kind of become, Oh, a redemption

02:21:22.740 arc, like Snoop Dogg. Um, arguably like Martha Stewart. Like, I think those are good examples. Like,

02:21:31.000 so Snoop Dogg, like, I think, I don't think a lot of people now he's like, he sells like candles or

02:21:35.160 whatever. Right. And I'm not trying to disrespect him or anything like that. I, I also try not to

02:21:39.020 talk about people. I try to talk to people, so I don't like to mention people, but I think Snoop

02:21:42.940 Dogg is a really good example. I don't think most people know who Snoop Dogg really was like in the

02:21:49.080 eighties and nineties. Now he's this like fluffy, he beat a murder charge. And, uh, didn't he get

02:21:55.120 convicted? I think he literally is a convicted murderer. I'm not going to comment any, any, but you asked

02:21:59.400 for an example, that's one that I would offer. Okay. That's right. So like, and I'm not commenting

02:22:06.080 whether he's a good person or whether it was fair or whether he's good now, I'm not, I'm not making

02:22:10.040 any kind of alley judgment, but you want an example. I think that's like a good one. Um, yeah. And I, I

02:22:19.400 think there are other like musicians and stuff like who sort of fall into that. Um, and then I think, I think

02:22:27.140 there, there must be like streamers who kind of like shape up, right. They used to be kind of

02:22:32.320 degenerate, but then they kind of go mainstream and there's something of a redemption arc there,

02:22:36.140 but it's a good point. And I think they definitely, people love tearing people down more than a

02:22:42.740 redemption arc. But I think from an archetypal standpoint and a tropal standpoint, we love

02:22:47.260 redemption arcs because if it, cause I think human beings see it and they think like, if you can do it,

02:22:55.280 then maybe I can do it. So they, they love to see that the triumph of the human spirit and good to

02:22:59.860 win in the end. I think that's why it's in all the movies, but it is scary. I guess your fellow

02:23:04.280 Indian Neon is on a redemption arc. You know, you're saying people love to hate him a couple of years

02:23:10.120 back and now he's doing a lot of positive things and he's on a, on a very good redemption arc right

02:23:14.820 now. Yeah. I can think of a couple of other streamers, but I'm not going to mention names.

02:23:19.760 I think redemption arcs absolutely do happen. So we've been at this for a couple of hours.

02:23:28.100 I'm debating whether I want to ask you about the crisis that you're going through or whether

02:23:34.220 we should wrap up around now. What do you think? I, up to you. Unfortunately, we only, we said this

02:23:41.980 last time and then we didn't speak for a couple of years. So if you want to, if you want to ask me

02:23:45.280 something or if you want to leave it, I'll put the volume forward. Yeah. That's, that's a great

02:23:49.280 point. So since we do this once every two years, which maybe will change, um, why don't you tell

02:23:54.700 me a little bit about what, what's been going on with you recently? It's, uh, my editor texts me

02:24:03.000 Logan Paul. That's a good example for damage. What's been going on is, um, I've been, I've been

02:24:07.460 working, I've been working a lot and, um, I like talking to you because I'm, I realized when I say

02:24:14.640 things like the, so what I was going to say, and then I'll tell you the thought that I had,

02:24:19.400 I was going to say, I've been working really hard. And the person I've been working with,

02:24:22.520 CZ Kana, he's been working the summer. He recently commented on my work ethic and he's like,

02:24:27.300 it's insane how much you work. And then I immediately thought about my fans or the community,

02:24:31.800 uh, people love, she's like, you're, they, they insist that I'm lazy all the time. They just like,

02:24:36.440 do this, do that. It's very, you know, they see the predicament that I'm in being banned.

02:24:40.620 They get really upset if I'm not live, you know, for six hours every single day.

02:24:45.520 There's a lot of things that I do. You know, I make these videos. I edit a lot. I'm filming a

02:24:49.140 lot. I'm traveling a lot. I, uh, collaborate a lot. It's, it's a lot of work. And, uh, as I was

02:24:56.280 saying that I was like, wow, I clearly listened too much to what people say online and there's no

02:25:02.100 point in investing energy in that. If it ends up frustrating me that people don't understand what

02:25:06.360 I do or trying to communicate that to them. So it's, it's just, it's been, it's been busy.

02:25:11.920 It's a, it's, it's nonstop and I enjoy it, but I do crave a vacation. That's why I'm a little bit

02:25:18.360 envious that you went to France and Switzerland. I would love to have four or five days off and

02:25:23.000 barely look at my phone and unplug and just be somewhere where I can relax and not think about

02:25:30.180 the stuff and not read anything online. But the pressures of maintaining, you know, social media or

02:25:35.560 whatever. And also my career position is like, you pretty much have to be, you got to be dialed in.

02:25:40.180 You got to be, you got to be locked in. And it's that fear of, you know, disintegrating and losing

02:25:44.860 everything you built. Um, so what, what's the, so I mentioned to you that I, I went through a crisis

02:26:05.500 you said same or something of the effect. Is that what this is? Is that, is that what you were

02:26:10.960 referring to? It's not a crisis, but it's, it's, um, I would love to start a, well, okay. Actually

02:26:21.140 you want to speak to Myron, right? I, I, I need to connect as soon as I'll, I'll put you in a group

02:26:25.500 chat and I'm sure you could have a good conversation. But recently he went very public that he, he's

02:26:28.800 been, he's been what? I've been wanting to go on his podcast for a long time. I think that'd be

02:26:34.640 great. And I think he's someone else that I think he's someone else that, um, I think people misjudge

02:26:42.020 quite a bit. Yeah, I, I agree. He's one of my best friends and I got to see him in Miami a couple

02:26:48.440 of days ago. I think, I don't know if you like Aiden Ross, but I love talking to Aiden too.

02:26:52.840 Aiden is another one of my best friends. Yeah. And speaking of dopamine, I remember like last

02:26:59.460 year we were in Canada and I saw him win a million dollars gambling online, something I refuse to do

02:27:04.800 to take the money from. Uh, and I saw him win a million dollars and then immediately he got depressed

02:27:11.000 30 seconds later. I'm like, what the fuck? He just won a million dollars. And he's sitting there like,

02:27:15.600 fuck. I'm like, what? It's like the dopamine wore off. He got high from winning a million.

02:27:22.840 And then it wore off. He's like, Oh, okay. I already have like 80 million. And then now he's

02:27:28.940 just, you know, coming down and I'm like, this is evil. Look what this just, how do you get sad

02:27:34.400 after winning a million dollars? It's, it's an endless loop, but yeah, he's, um, yeah, I remember

02:27:39.980 you guys spoke. I saw that stream. Myron, I would love to see you guys do that. And Myron went really

02:27:43.900 public. He said he broke up with his girlfriend. He doesn't want to start a family with her because he

02:27:48.040 doesn't want to start a family with her. This is what he said online publicly. I'm not saying anything

02:27:51.520 that he didn't say. He said that he's not ready. You know, he's 35 and he has more work to do and

02:27:59.000 he's not, he's not. And I'm like, that made me self-reflect a lot because I want a family and I

02:28:05.140 don't want that to restrict, you know, I don't want that to be in a competition with what I do.

02:28:10.700 And it made me think like, when am I going to get out of this? Am I going to still be streaming at 35?

02:28:14.420 Am I still going to be at this routine at that, at this work level, no breaks. Um, am I destined to

02:28:21.240 do this forever? Or can I start a family or can I be able to combine the two of them? So yeah,

02:28:27.960 that's what I've been thinking about a lot. And it also did inspire that PewDiePie tweet.

02:28:32.380 You feel trapped?

02:28:33.320 A little bit, but I do. I love what I do. I love what I do.

02:28:41.280 I know. So, so, so I, I, I think like this is challenging because like, I'm going to, I use

02:28:46.040 negative valence emotions and I ask you if you feel that way. And I think that there's an

02:28:52.160 association of like being trapped as weak or whatever, but like, I, I, I, I, I don't get

02:28:57.700 that. Like, right. So I don't, I don't know if this makes sense, but like, so, so I, what I'm

02:29:02.340 getting the sense of is that you feel incredibly like restricted, like you can't afford to stop.

02:29:09.040 Pretty much. Yeah.

02:29:10.020 Right. So, so, so if you, and, and, and this is what I'm kind of curious about.

02:29:13.960 You said the phrase scary fear of disintegrating. What does that mean?

02:29:22.300 Of losing everything, basically like letting them win, you know, they try to letting who win

02:29:27.920 the people that took away my platforms that ruin my reputation that, you know, say that

02:29:35.240 preyed on my downfall, those people like by, you know, by losing this, it's like that vindicates

02:29:42.760 them. So it's like a, it's like a nonstop battle.

02:29:45.640 So them, you winning means never taking a vacation and never having a family.

02:29:56.120 No, me winning weird victory.

02:29:58.220 Me winning is finding an exit point like PewDiePie where you leave on your own terms and nobody

02:30:03.360 could say that you, you know, that, that you lost everything or that nobody could tarnish

02:30:12.660 your, your reputation of what you've done. So he left it on his own terms and I respect

02:30:17.780 that a lot.

02:30:19.240 And okay.

02:30:20.160 Yeah.

02:30:21.620 Maybe I'm fatigued, but I'm, I'm gonna be a little straight with you.

02:30:25.360 So, so, and, and you have to, you got, we got to reserve the right. If this is not,

02:30:34.560 if this doesn't end up right, I get a redo. Is that fair?

02:30:38.780 Sure.

02:30:40.420 Here we go.

02:30:41.880 So, like I'm hearing some things that I think make a lot of sense and are kind of like

02:30:48.880 losing sight of the forest for the trees kind of thing. So first of all, if your goal is

02:30:57.860 to have an impeachable reputation, that is a terrible goal. So you're dictating the way

02:31:05.160 that you live your life based on the opinions of others. So people want to say like, who

02:31:11.960 the fuck cares if they say that you pussed out or whatever, if you're out there living

02:31:17.660 your life and you're happy and you're hanging out with your family and you're on the beach

02:31:21.480 or you're writing a book or whatever it is that you do, you're holding workshops for whatever,

02:31:27.320 right? Like if you're living your life, like, like this is a very dangerous goal to have.

02:31:34.340 A reputational goal is very, I would argue that it is not within your control.

02:31:40.700 That's not the, that's not the complete goal. I think that's a secondary goal. Obviously

02:31:46.320 the goal is to do the right thing and is to, I'd say the ultimate goal is to bring people

02:31:50.800 closer to God, entertain, do the right thing. That's the, that's the top of the pyramid as

02:31:56.640 we specified earlier. Secondary, secondary goals is I do want, ever since they, they took

02:32:03.900 everything and they smeared my reputation. The secondary goal is, is proving those people

02:32:08.980 wrong and not letting them be correct in their assessment of me.

02:32:15.520 So, so that too, I mean, this, this sounds dangerous to me, like in a way that's going

02:32:22.580 to hurt you because now it's like your, your mission. So I don't, I don't think God is the

02:32:27.860 primary goal actually, because if God was the primary goal, you'd take four to five days off.

02:32:33.900 Right? Like, so I, I think what's actually happening is that in one part, and this is,

02:32:41.220 this is exactly the shadow that I was talking about. When you start lopping off parts of

02:32:45.580 yourself, this is what happens because you say something is the primary goal, but if God

02:32:49.640 is really the primary goal, you can take four to five days off. This is where there's some

02:32:53.600 kind of weird fuel. And I don't know if you've noticed, but over the course of this

02:32:57.520 conversation, you've expressed a theme of frustration with other people's impression of

02:33:05.100 you. Right? That's the thing. And, and, and I don't think that that's like bad or anything. I'm

02:33:14.960 not trying to say it's a weakness or anything like that. Like people misjudge you sort of,

02:33:20.320 right? Because they judge, it's not that they misjudge you. It's that they incompletely judge

02:33:24.300 you. They judge a slice of you. They form an opinion based on the first six words out of your

02:33:28.780 mouth. They don't even pay attention to the other 25. And now here you are fighting a reputational

02:33:36.980 war against some phantom. How do you know when you win?

02:33:40.120 But it's also, it's bigger than just reputational, right? It's also an ideological war. It's a

02:33:45.620 culture war. It's the war for about the truth. And also there's conflicting ideas about even taking

02:33:55.000 a break because as I expressed earlier, one of my biggest fears on this earth besides God

02:33:59.760 is a life of boredom and stagnation and repetition. And I know I'm the type of person like I idealize

02:34:08.240 like, you know, escaping and having a family or even taking a vacation, but it's like I can

02:34:12.120 visualize myself there and I see myself like getting bored in a day or two. I'm like, fuck,

02:34:16.620 I want to go back to work. You know, it sounds nice, but it's not truly. So do you remember

02:34:23.600 early in the conversation where I said, this is adaptive, but it's going to be maladaptive

02:34:27.900 when you're 40? Yeah. This is what I'm talking about. Right? So like here you are wanting

02:34:35.640 something and you've got to be really careful, man, because if you're not careful and you end up

02:34:42.760 dating someone who is who you're supposed to date and some of this shit comes up, you're going to screw

02:34:47.800 it up. Like you're going to get bored. Like it's, I don't know if this makes sense. You're, you're out

02:34:53.360 of control in an in control way. You can't stop. You won't let yourself stop. And it's not like

02:35:02.700 you're stopping forever. Like you won't even let yourself take a break because your fear of

02:35:06.240 disintegration, you don't want to let them win. Right. And there are these other things that are

02:35:10.780 not congruent with your actions and you want to part on your own terms. Fine. Like, great. Awesome.

02:35:20.160 You know, I support basically most of what you're like, I think it's good, but do you see how they're

02:35:24.580 like this just doesn't plug in? So there's like, there's an independent driver here, which

02:35:32.100 is driving you. And even though you're not able, like you want to take a vacation, it sounds nice.

02:35:39.200 There's a lot of stuff that you want that sounds nice, but the act of actually doing it doesn't feel

02:35:44.840 good. Right. So this is where, where, so now if you, if you're really careful and I'm, I'm being a

02:35:52.700 little bit rough with you here. Okay. So like, it's coming from a place of love.

02:35:57.680 This is a level of lack of self-control where there's a level of self-control, which is like,

02:36:04.220 I'm not going to let my fear of boredom or my inability to be bored control my ability to take

02:36:11.780 a vacation. Right. So you're still being like puppeted by a part of you. And I'm not, I'm not,

02:36:19.980 I'm not trying to devalue any of your goals. I support your goals. Go ahead and establish your

02:36:26.180 views. You know, like the people who thought that you were X, Y, or Z. It's not that you want to

02:36:33.320 prove them wrong. You are not going to be that thing. And if they want to continue to misjudge you,

02:36:38.640 that's on them. Right. But there's, there's something here that, that feels to me like some

02:36:45.660 of these energies. Fundamentally, you want these things, but you're not able, you're not allowing

02:36:51.780 yourself to have what you want. And if you just think about that for a second, what's stopping

02:36:57.100 you? Clearly something inside you, because I don't know. I mean, maybe your chat is like,

02:37:01.640 if you take a four day vacation, like we're never going to see you again. I don't think that's going

02:37:05.820 to happen. And I think you may attract people, almost certainly will, who also flagellate

02:37:14.360 themselves, right? Push themselves. Y'all, y'all make it an honorific to have such a great,

02:37:23.180 I know you've got a great work ethic. Like I, I can tell. Right. But like, there's almost this like

02:37:30.880 zealousness of, of work ethic where you have to, have to, have to, have to, have to.

02:37:39.960 And, and this is where I think some of those associations become important. Cause I think

02:37:43.660 there's like some middle path. Like I think you can take four or five days off. And I think if

02:37:47.740 you're bored, you don't have to commit to four or five days. If you're bored, you're bored. And then

02:37:52.680 you're like, I want to come back to work. So be it. Right. But as long as you have this specter of,

02:37:58.280 I'm not going to let them win like that, they're living rent-free in your head, bro.

02:38:03.540 Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's why I tweeted that about PewDiePie and, and, you know, the people

02:38:08.520 that live opposite to him is because they have a similar mentality that I'm trying to escape from,

02:38:14.120 you know, and that I'm working on and aware of where they're still churning out the drama slop with

02:38:18.420 that Ozempic stare because they don't acknowledge what's wrong or see that they, you know, they should

02:38:25.080 have an exit point. And I don't want to be that. Like, that's, that's exactly why I said that.

02:38:29.500 I'm sorry. And that's the crisis is like, I really don't want to be that forever. That there's,

02:38:35.260 there's, that's a dangerous thing to be when you're 42. Absolutely.

02:38:39.380 Yeah. And, and so, so once again, I'm, I'm being a little bit rough with you. Okay. So like,

02:38:44.260 but like, I want you to make me cry or something. This is, come on.

02:38:49.760 So they, they are soulless, making drama slop, whatever, SSRIs, Ozempic stare. And like,

02:38:58.620 so that's why they're stuck in this, right? What's your excuse? How are you different?

02:39:09.360 Right. They're, they're being pushed by something within them. You're being pushed by something

02:39:15.340 within you. You say you want these things. And I think that some of this will calm down,

02:39:20.720 by the way, so hopefully you become like more secure, like from a, I don't know exactly what

02:39:27.320 your financial situation is or anything like, I don't mean like psychologically secure. I mean,

02:39:30.720 like whatever, whatever. And I've, I've talked, you know, I've worked with, with content creators

02:39:36.760 who have been banned from platforms and it's a tenuous existence, right? It's like tenuous.

02:39:42.660 That's what I mean. Like, and so, so if things kind of calm down for you and you know, there's

02:39:48.540 some more steady like income or whatever, I don't, I don't know exactly what your income

02:39:51.780 is or anything like that. Some of this stuff can get better, but I think you've got to be

02:39:54.700 really careful about what's driving you. What, what is that thing? And it's not the logical

02:39:58.980 thought. There's something that is producing a particular bucket of thoughts.

02:40:04.660 It's also that I, I believe that I have a God given talent. I find myself, I don't,

02:40:12.040 maybe you can call it a star system. I think I'm very talented and I think I'm gifted at

02:40:16.420 what I do. And I think that I impact a lot of people and I've seen the impact I've had

02:40:20.180 on people, um, over well over a decade of the stuff that I've put out. And I know that

02:40:25.920 there's, it's almost like a responsibility that I find to do more and to impact more people

02:40:31.420 and to, to help and to, you know, put that out there more. And I, I know that I'm not even

02:40:37.920 close to done yet. And that, that's also, that's a main driver.

02:40:43.460 Yeah. So I, I, I can empathize, right? I would say that I am talented.

02:40:50.080 You are absolutely.

02:40:50.740 That I, I affect a lot of people. I help a lot of people. Um, and also I don't think that

02:40:59.060 I have to do it alone. I think that I was put on this earth by God to help people, but

02:41:08.060 like I get to take vacations and, and I have a ridiculous work ethic. I work seven days a

02:41:15.160 week, most weeks. I had my first vacation in five years. Um, and so like, I, I'm, I'm sort

02:41:23.780 of with you there, but I think this is what I've sort of learned is like, you've got to be

02:41:27.540 careful because all of those things can be true, but this, there's a certain, you're

02:41:33.840 like a hundred percent and all the things that you're saying, like, I don't think God

02:41:38.220 is asking you to never take a break. You're 26 years old. You've got 40 to 50 years of content

02:41:45.020 creation left in you. And what makes you think that like taking four days off won't improve

02:41:52.360 the quality of your content? So one of the most shocking things that we discovered, so we

02:41:57.240 have a career coaching program where we, I forget exactly what it is somewhere on, we

02:42:02.600 in about eight to 12 weeks, people's like channel growth increases by somewhere between 30 and

02:42:08.980 80%. I think the number is 80%, but that number sounds ridiculous. Let's just say we improve

02:42:13.040 their channel growth by 50%. The key thing about our program is we do it without increasing the

02:42:18.140 number of hours worth. So working more is not necessarily, is not necessarily going to get you

02:42:27.900 there. Right. So I think this is where like, there's a lot of self-reflection about, you know,

02:42:34.040 like, are you, are you, do you mind if I ask a couple of questions about your personal life?

02:42:37.360 Absolutely. Are you dating anyone right now?

02:42:44.800 Uh, no. Okay. Are you interested in finding a committed relationship? Absolutely. Yeah.

02:42:53.660 What is making the, when do you want to do that?

02:43:04.660 Pretty soon. If not now, like I am looking for that. Yeah. That's something that I am investing

02:43:09.700 time and energy into. What, what's, what's getting in the way?

02:43:12.760 Nothing really. It's, it's just, um, I think no, nothing's really getting in the way.

02:43:24.900 Okay. So you're like actively pursuing that things are moving because like, there's a part

02:43:28.500 of me that I'm defaulting to this hypothesis that something about your work ethic is going

02:43:33.880 to like, there's a certain rigidity, not rigidity. There's a certain zeal, right? There, there's

02:43:41.420 like, like, you're like all in on this. Like, it's like work seven days a week, no days off,

02:43:48.260 you're editing, you're coming up with ideas, you're collabing and stuff like that. And I get

02:43:52.240 you, dude, like next six months of my life are, are really, really busy. And then I'm working

02:43:58.320 on a bunch of stuff. Like, you know, I, I, I, I really do think I get you and I think you

02:44:02.600 should do all that shit. Yeah. Like, but scaling back by 10% or 20%. I think that's only

02:44:11.400 an issue if there's an end target with a finite timeline. Does that kind of make sense?

02:44:18.540 Yeah. There, there, there was financial goals that I want to, I want to hit them. I am doing

02:44:23.420 very well. I'm the, the stuff that I'm very blessed to be, but I'm, I'm not quite exactly

02:44:29.580 where I want to be. So where I could comfortably be like, all right, ready to have like pop out

02:44:34.100 four kids like that. You know, I'm not a very materialistic person, but I, I want to be,

02:44:42.400 have complete comfort in that and not have to, cause I grew up, like there was a lot of

02:44:46.300 financial stress and I don't want any of that for my kids. So. Yeah. So I mean, so, so then my next

02:44:53.340 question is like, how much of this is actually a problem? Is what a problem? Because what you're

02:44:57.900 just, so, so like this, so I'm, I'm getting kind of mixed signals here, which is not a bad

02:45:03.040 thing. This is a good thing. So on the one hand you're saying like, okay, I want these

02:45:07.600 things. Right. So like, I, I kind of like the, the way that PewDiePie did it, that's kind

02:45:12.300 of the path that I think jives with what I want. Do your stuff, take an exit. Don't be like

02:45:21.180 trapped in this life forever. Yeah. You know, take a break. Do you want to take a vacation?

02:45:27.380 Yes and no. Yes and no. Because that's what I first started my streaming career. I would do one

02:45:31.960 month off one month on every single day. And then one month off completely where I just would travel

02:45:37.100 Europe and then not stream at all. And people always say, I miss when you streamed every day.

02:45:40.480 It's like, that was never what I did. You know, I saw when I was on YouTube streaming, which is,

02:45:44.880 you know, short lived, it was one month on one month off. And I really liked that routine,

02:45:50.340 but also when I was there for a while, I'd just be sitting around and then I'm in Europe,

02:45:55.020 you know, not sure. What do you do? You end up drinking somewhere or just wasting time or just

02:45:59.100 being a degenerate. Cause like, how do you fill up your time? I'm the type of person where like,

02:46:02.640 I don't like boredom and degeneracy does quickly replace that. So work is also an escape from that,

02:46:11.880 from that familiar routine. So, I mean, it sounds nice, but it's also, I do, I love working. I love it.

02:46:19.100 Yeah. I love this. Yeah. So, so do you, so what appeals to you about a vacation?

02:46:27.660 I guess just silence from constant social media. That that's the, I think that is the big appeal

02:46:33.900 being in a place without, you know, the familiarities of it. But even then I went to

02:46:38.000 Miami recently for a couple of days, had to take care of housekeeping stuff. And, you know,

02:46:42.320 I streamed maybe once in three days and I came back and I was so relieved to be back in New York

02:46:46.120 city because I love the chaos and the busyness and the, you know, the FOMO that I get if I'm not

02:46:50.780 working, like being in, why I love New York so much is that there's an energy here that pulls you

02:46:55.560 into work. Can I think for a second? Absolutely.

02:47:03.960 How's this going? Is there a problem here? Is this something you're unhappy with? Are you okay

02:47:14.600 with this? No, I'm okay. I'm okay. I'm just, I'm kind of just, I'm, I'm venting, you know,

02:47:20.340 it's, uh, but I'm okay. Also again, why it goes full circle? Like it's part of the reason I don't

02:47:26.360 believe in therapy because, um, yeah, my life is good. I really don't have too much to complain

02:47:33.720 about. I, I, I, I'm venting. What are you venting about? You know, frustrations I have,

02:47:44.100 but it's not that big. What are you frustrated with? What are you frustrated with? The stuff

02:47:50.360 that I vocalize, like, uh, being canceled, the reputation and the feedback from the community.

02:47:59.240 A lot of the frustrations do stem from social media, but also love social media. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

02:48:05.040 I gotcha. Thank you so much for clarifying. Yeah. So I, I, I, I sort of see like, you're kind of

02:48:10.280 like stuck between a rock and a hard place, right? Cause on the one hand, you've been burned

02:48:15.340 by social media. It's a relief to get away from social media, but you like the work,

02:48:22.700 right? You don't need a break from the work. And, and if you take a break from the work,

02:48:29.500 if you take a break from engaging your mind, and that's really what I see here is like,

02:48:34.500 you're engaging your mind every day. You're thinking, you're talking to people, you're collabing,

02:48:39.160 you're like, your ideas are being tested. Your ideas are being clarified through the,

02:48:44.380 when you say them out loud, you're thinking, right? You've got this mission. You don't

02:48:48.460 exactly know how you're supposed to fulfill it. You notice you're having an impact.

02:48:53.940 The world isn't fixed yet. So you've got to keep going and you, and each day you do it,

02:48:58.660 you get better. That's gotta be addictive, right? Not in a bad way. It's like, okay,

02:49:03.560 like we're doing it, right? So you, you, you got, you got kind of KO'd a little bit,

02:49:07.260 but you actually, you didn't get KO'd. You got knocked down. You're at a disadvantage,

02:49:10.860 but you're going to come back. Right? And, and so like, you're going to, you got to kind of make

02:49:15.800 up for lost time. So you're grinding, you're not going to, you're not going to make the same

02:49:19.680 mistake again. You're not going to get fully canceled. You're going to find a way to come

02:49:22.680 back. So I totally get that. You want a break from the socials that taxes you. You're willing to pay

02:49:30.020 the price. It's worth it to pay the price, paying the price. You're happy with where you are now.

02:49:35.460 And you've got a lot of, you're going uphill, but you're still fucking climbing.

02:49:42.320 So if you take a break on the one hand, you get a break from the negativity.

02:49:48.360 On the other hand, if you take a break and you're not engaging yourself,

02:49:53.920 then you're going to become a degenerate. You don't want to be, you don't want to just be sitting

02:49:58.580 there drinking, right? Do you want to explore Europe? Yes. But you're going to wind up sort of

02:50:03.580 wasting your time sort of being bored. So you might as well work.

02:50:09.020 So like what I'm sort of getting from you is that this isn't ideal, but you'll take it any day of

02:50:14.980 the week over the alternative. You just rather be working than be on vacation because vacation is a

02:50:19.680 break from social media. Sure. You get this thing, but you don't get these eight other things.

02:50:24.220 Yeah. It goes back to your point earlier where you can get a million positive competent

02:50:27.620 comments and a hundred negative comments. And so it's like, I get a break from the hundred negative

02:50:31.740 comments, but I also get a break from a million positive comments. So yeah, I think that,

02:50:38.020 that compare, that point you made up earlier is a perfect comparison.

02:50:43.460 So here's kind of where, like after I, after I kind of put it back to you like that,

02:50:50.180 where are you now with this?

02:50:51.680 Right where we started.

02:50:54.840 Okay, good. So, so, so I, I think that that's, that's actually really good. So I, I don't think

02:51:01.180 we're actually right where we're started. Um, but it's good to, to clarify these ideas and get a

02:51:07.060 perspective on them and, you know, hear them out. But yeah, no, no, this, this, um, it is good,

02:51:16.380 but you know, I, I'm a very, I think a lot, you know, as much as I try not to be too inspected,

02:51:21.400 the stuff that I've been tossing and turning with for years.

02:51:25.360 So I, I, I, so here's, here's what I think you should do. So I think there's a couple of

02:51:32.100 different points here. The first is that I think a lot of your desire to get away from social media

02:51:38.180 isn't today. It's actually a dormant wound from the past, right? So like when you say,

02:51:45.060 I want to get away from social media, it's not the comments today that you need to get away from.

02:51:52.460 It's the aggregate hurt of social media, which you're sort of moving away from. I think that's

02:51:58.480 something you should consider. So, which also means that part of, part of the, it's because

02:52:03.600 you're sort of conflicted, but I think the reason you're conflicted is because on the one hand, like

02:52:07.180 you actually don't want a vacation. So the thing that you're running away from is not actually present

02:52:13.700 in the here and now in a very potent way. The process of getting canceled hurts a lot now.

02:52:22.600 Right. So, so now I don't think it's social media today. I think it's, there's a dormant wound,

02:52:27.500 which you're running away from in some way, not in a bad way, but you want relief from that's a

02:52:32.800 better way to put it. So I think if that, that wound gets resolved and you kind of come to terms

02:52:38.740 with that and you've done a really good job in some way, but I think you've also walled it off.

02:52:43.560 Do you know what an abscess is? You ever heard this term?

02:52:46.280 Like a cancer?

02:52:47.980 Sort of. So an abscess is when we have like an infection or something, your, your body forms a

02:52:53.440 wall around the infection. So it forms this like circle and there's active infection on the inside,

02:53:01.000 but it can't spread. So it no longer damages you, but it never gets healed. It's not the same as

02:53:08.820 healing. So we're going to like wall off the contamination. We're not going to get rid of it.

02:53:14.760 We're going to just wall it off. So, so sometimes when, when people go through things like what

02:53:19.100 you've gone through, this is sort of what happens in their mind. They wall off a part of themselves

02:53:23.720 and then they, they want that to go away, but it's, it's kind of weird. And then they wind up in

02:53:28.820 these situations where you are, where you're like, you're really interested in this, but

02:53:32.500 the thing that you are interested in doesn't solve what you're longing for. Does that kind

02:53:38.600 of make sense? Like you want it, but it doesn't do what you want it to do. It's not going to

02:53:44.260 do what you want it to do, but you want it anyway, which is like weird. Cause then why do you want

02:53:48.700 it? So you're, I think that this is something you should consider. Second thing is that I think

02:53:54.760 you need to learn how to be bored. So there's like, right. So I think that there's like,

02:54:01.340 there's a level of like contemplation. There's a level of relaxation and you say it's easy to fall

02:54:07.220 into degenerate habits. And I think a big part of like growth is going to be learning new ways to do

02:54:13.600 things. Now, I don't think that, I mean, I don't think you're ready to take a vacation anytime soon.

02:54:19.240 And I don't think vacation is really the right thing, but I, I, I think that, you know, when your

02:54:24.480 body tells you we need a break, like give it that break and give yourself some time to, you know,

02:54:30.860 be with yourself. I mean, maybe the kind of vacation you need is a little bit different.

02:54:34.460 I'd say like grab a notebook, grab a pen, grab a laptop. I do. I write it every day.

02:54:38.620 Well, yeah. Yeah. Which I do consider to be a vacation, like something like that. So that's what I

02:54:45.720 do visualize is like being alone with my thoughts and in a cabin that, that is like what I'm talking

02:54:50.520 about. Just being like on a beach somewhere, just like where I could write, which is work,

02:54:54.900 you know, which technically it's not really a break. I mean, yes and no. So, so I, I, I think

02:55:03.280 it is a break from social media, which is the break that you really crave and it's not going

02:55:08.420 to be boredom. Right. And I, and I say like, like, you're right. It's technically not a break,

02:55:13.300 but I don't think you're ready for a break yet. Like if you want to go without the laptop,

02:55:18.460 go without the laptop. If you want to go hang out on a beach somewhere, go hang out on a

02:55:22.220 beach somewhere. But if, if you're not ready for that, then, then go take a working vacation.

02:55:27.420 You know, I mean, and that, that, that's something that just because you're, you don't have to

02:55:33.800 be idle and be on vacation. So I think there's some amount of like, you got to really think

02:55:38.060 about how much you've been affected and, and not just in the sense that it's like worn

02:55:43.680 you down or you've lost or, or anything like that. Like you've, you've coped, you've bounced

02:55:48.920 back, you're bounced back. Now it's just what's lingering within you that you're really like

02:55:54.360 sensitive to. And, and I'm, I'm, and you can go back and, and, you know, listen to this

02:55:58.980 conversation again. And I think the primary theme here is like the judgment of others, which

02:56:03.300 is so tricky because like you're striving to be independent and, and it's gotta be frustrating to

02:56:10.000 be like thinking about other people so much, even when you've learned, because I can tell a part of

02:56:15.420 you has grown past that you really have, but it's like a part of you hasn't like, it's like 80%,

02:56:22.420 90% of you has grown past it, but 10% of it is like, I want to show these fuckers. And then I think

02:56:28.060 on a, on a, on a given day, you know, if I ask you, you're like, okay, if I'm doing work that I'm

02:56:32.400 aligned with, I'm going to try to help people, I'm going to work in service to God, whatever,

02:56:35.840 like 90%, but there's some, some fucking 15 year old kid who's looking at himself in the mirror,

02:56:40.800 doesn't like what he sees. And what bothers him even more is like, he's proud of himself.

02:56:45.840 And so what he sees when he looks in the mirror is something he's proud of, but everyone else

02:56:50.220 doesn't see that. That's what really bothers you. And that's still there.

02:56:55.740 Right. You've done the growth. People don't see it. And then you probably hate yourself a little

02:57:04.620 bit for wanting them to see it. You're good at what you do. You're good at what you do.

02:57:13.100 No, you are. I got to give you, got to give you credit. You both, both conversations. You

02:57:17.920 surprised me. Oh shit. This guy's kind of spot on. Yeah. Cause one of my first viral videos,

02:57:23.220 uh, I was, I was 15, 16 when I made it called how people view you. And it was, it was about this

02:57:29.820 exactly. It was about the living for people's validation and living in the perception of other

02:57:34.300 people and how that's becoming increasingly common with social media. And it was like a warning sign.

02:57:40.140 People really loved how, you know, it was articulate and accurate in a way that people didn't describe.

02:57:45.860 And even without social media, uh, people have been doing that, but that is, uh, I, I, that is,

02:57:53.240 you know, one of the common themes about everything, everything in my work.

02:57:58.660 Yeah. I, I, I think, and I'm, I, hopefully this isn't glazing too much. I think, I think you have,

02:58:03.600 you have some serious profit energy. Like you really do. Like, I think you're, you're thoughtful,

02:58:11.320 you're charismatic. Like you, you have a, you have some profit energy kind of going on and I'm,

02:58:18.020 I'm not, I really see that. And I think you have something really important to offer.

02:58:23.440 And I, and I just, I hope, I hope that you don't have to sacrifice your life. Right. So I know your

02:58:33.660 name. I mean, I don't know what your real name is, but you know, you're Sneeko and like, there's a

02:58:38.640 human underneath. And I just hope you're able to find some way that you fulfill whatever that

02:58:44.500 profit energy is going, right. It's some amount of teaching and some amount of speaking and some

02:58:48.720 amount of spreading and disseminating, but there must be a clarity of idea. It must be disseminated

02:58:53.340 in the right way. These tweets do go viral. You do have this charisma. You've got all those pieces,

02:58:58.380 but hopefully the human doesn't have to be sacrificed in the process.

02:59:02.480 enough for today. I think

02:59:08.960 you're the goat, Dr. K. All right, man. Hey, I wish all the, all success to you and to you and

02:59:20.340 your family. Great speaking to you again. I would love to do this again. And feel free to message me

02:59:25.260 anytime. If you want to catch up and talk, it was fun talking to you through the messages the past

02:59:29.360 couple of days. And you know, before then I, yeah, cool, man. I appreciate this. I appreciate

02:59:33.880 this a lot. Thank you so much for talking. Talking's good. That's what we do, huh? Have a good one.

02:59:42.360 Take care, buddy. Bye. Dr. K, man. Dr. K. Fucking hell, that was good.

SNEAKO - August 20, 2025

SNEAKO Gets Emotional Reflecting On His Life During Therapy

Episode Stats

Length

Words per Minute

Word Count

Sentence Count

Summary

Transcript