In this episode, Russell Brand is joined by his on-screen assistant, Gareth, to discuss an exclusive story breaking on this show by Michael Schellenberger and Matt Taibbi, the Woodward and Bernstein of the counter-establishment age. They discuss the treatment of whistleblowers, the use of the Espionage Act, and the genuine imperialistic agenda behind, potentially behind, Trump s vilification and trial. They also discuss conspiracy theories about aliens, extraterrestrials, and extratemporals. And, of course, there's a special guest appearance from Russell's ex-wife, Gwyneth Paltrow. Stay tuned for that later in the show. To find a list of our sponsors and show-related promo codes, go to gimlet.fm/OurAdvertisers and use the promo code: "ELISSA" at checkout to receive 10% off your first pack! Thanks to our sponsor, RUMBLE! We'll see you in the Badger Den! Subscribe to Stay Free with Russell Brand: Stay Free With Russell Brand on iTunes and help spread the word about this show! Stay Free, Friend Us, Subscribe, Share, Like, Share and Retweet! And don't Tell a Friend about Stay Free by clicking here. If you like the show and/or share it on your social media or share it with a friend, we'll be giving you a discount code: stayfreewithrussrandruss@mailonline.co.uk and you'll get 20% off the entire episodes throughout the rest of the week! Thank you for supporting Stay Free! You'll get 10% discount code Stay Freebie Friday, too! at stayfree with r/RUMBLE. at r/Stay Free with RMS and we'll get 5% off a new episode of Stay Free at $99.00 and get 5 VIP access to RMS and RMS at RMS VIP! and they'll get a discount on your first ad discount when you sign up to the RMS Loyalty trial starting next week, too get VIP access starts on RMS starts next week. That starts on 7/RMS starts on 8/3/27/9/19/19thirtyreecentres get 7/1st RMS gets 5/3rd/ VIP access. And they'll also get VIP discount code RMS is 5/1 VIP.
00:00:44.000In this video, you're going to see the future.
00:00:56.000Hello, and welcome to Stay Free with Russell Brand.
00:00:59.000We've got a magnificent, exciting, visceral, and potent show for you today.
00:01:04.000Later, we're going to be talking to you about an exclusive story, broke, here, on this show, by Michael Schellenberger and Matt Taibbi, the Woodward and Bernstein of the counter-establishment age.
00:01:17.000Remember, when Woodward and Bernstein, real journalists, were fated by the establishment, could work for an organisation like the Washington Post?
00:01:24.000That's, I guess, what they worked for, isn't it?
00:01:26.000Now, like Barry Weiss, if she breaks a story about, for example, the Hunter Biden laptop, she's out of the New York Times.
00:01:57.000Let us unite and make a difference together.
00:02:00.000If you're watching us on YouTube, we can only do the first 15 minutes of the show here because we're going to show you some stuff that Schellenberger said to us about the lab leak theory that...
00:02:09.000Ludicrous though it may seem to right-minded, free-thinking people like you, we simply cannot discuss that on YouTube.
00:02:16.000We're going to be looking at the treatment of whistleblowers, the use of the Espionage Act, and the genuine imperialistic agenda behind, potentially behind, Trump's vilification and trial.
00:02:28.000I'm not a MAGA hat guy, but I am a justice guy.
00:02:43.000Is it possible that aliens, extraterrestrials, or extradimensionals, or extratemporals, because as Jeremy Corbell, our frequent guest on this show, you can have a look at our conversation on Rumble right now, consistently reminds us we do not know where these extraterrestrials come from.
00:04:50.000If you've not watched this yet, it's up already on Rumble.
00:04:52.000It's also the 6.4 million Awakening Wonders could access it, but we prefer you go over to Rumble because it's part of our relationship with Rumble to suggest that to you.
00:05:01.000Let's have a look at this bit of content that we made.
00:05:20.000Your nipples now, well, they're a bit like unidentified anomalous objects.
00:05:24.000Could we just get on with the interview?
00:05:25.000I have plenty of current, former senior intelligence officers that came to me, many of which I knew almost my whole career, that confided in me they were a part of a program, they named the program, I've never heard of it, and... This guy's falling in love with him, that's the problem, is the interview's like, oh, look at you, you know so much, you've seen things.
00:06:08.000As you know, as a discerning viewer, the news is just an entertainment product designed primarily to distract you and inculcate you with information that's antithetical to your advancements Like this guy, though, he's not.
00:06:28.000What if they touch me in a way I don't like?
00:06:30.000I mean, if it was you and me, David Grush, then I'd be fine, but not with these guys with their big grey faces and their big bloody great eyes.
00:07:27.000Oh, that stings! You poked me then. Sorry.
00:07:29.000Yeah, if your extraterrestrial hurts you, I'm gonna, I'll whistle blow so hard.
00:07:35.000Also, the concepts of, like, murder to aliens, like, they don't exist... I mean, we're assuming they don't exist within the same kind of context as us.
00:08:20.000They're furious over there in France about having their pensions stolen.
00:08:23.000They recognize that France has become a corporatocracy, that Macron ...appears to be ignoring democratic process, ignoring even the recommendations of the highest systems of justice in France, now they want to impose a law that will allow them to spy on you in your own home.
00:08:39.000Let me know in the chat if you ever have that experience where you're talking about cats and then you get an advert.
00:08:43.000Why not buy, I don't know, a cat or a hat for your cat?
00:08:46.000Now they're going to definitely turn on microphones for Le Chat all over France.
00:08:53.000Well, Snowden was interviewed recently, wasn't he?
00:08:55.000It was the 10-year anniversary of his revelations, and he was saying that what he revealed at the time is child's play compared to what is going on now.
00:09:02.000We had Schellenberger and Taibbi on the other day talking about the censorship industrial complex and the way that it's kind of You know, it's permeating through everything that we can imagine now.
00:09:13.000And now this is designed, as is always the case, to deal with terrorism, organised crime and delinquency.
00:09:19.000But apparently it's not just phones and computers that this can be done in.
00:09:22.000It's now baby monitors and TVs that could become data collection points.
00:09:26.000Have you noticed how often control is being exerted under the auspices of safety?
00:09:33.000What was the narrative of the pandemic?
00:10:18.000But that wouldn't have been helped by monitoring them.
00:10:21.000I think that would have just spurred them on to even greater criminality.
00:10:25.000It's plainly an attempt to further intervene in your private life.
00:10:30.000Yeah, and it's certainly not just going to happen in France.
00:10:31.000This is a trend that's going on all over the place.
00:10:33.000We know about the censorship bills that have been brought in in the Five Eyes countries at the moment, and if this is going to go on in France, we know this is going to go on across the EU.
00:10:56.000An optimistic perspective on humanity that you, if you are free to become the person that you're intended to be, will behave in alignment with higher principles.
00:11:04.000You don't need the constant intervention of the state in order to be a good person. You
00:11:09.000don't need a state that primarily serves the interests of large corporations.
00:11:13.000You don't need a state that wants to introduce social credit style risk
00:11:17.000scores to social media users. This is currently taking place. This is a story from
00:11:23.000Vice. What's happening here, Gal? Yeah, so this was a story published by
00:11:27.000Motherboard on Vice about the Department of Homeland Security.
00:11:33.000They entered into a contract with the University of Alabama to develop a project that they dubbed Night Fury, which sounds great, doesn't it?
00:11:41.000Which was designed to analyze and assess risk scores to social media accounts.
00:11:45.000So essentially, using automation to evaluate people's social media accounts for connection to disinformation campaigns.
00:11:54.000Earth is making you so cynical about Project Night Fury.
00:11:58.000It's like with tarot cards, when they say, no, no, don't worry.
00:12:28.000We want you to click on the link in the description right now and join us on Rumble for our...
00:12:34.000A fantastic extract from a conversation we had with Michael Schellenberger and Matt Taibbi where an exclusive story was broken right here.
00:12:41.000Do you want to see what real news looks like?
00:12:43.000Are you sick and tired of the pulp, the pap, the bilge, the crap that they're pumping down you day and night consistently, constantly, an endless diet of lies and censorship and surveillance?
00:15:12.000Remember, like, this is, you know, you'll be familiar with the magic bullet theory from the film JFK by the great director Oliver Stone.
00:15:18.000It's where the government had to put forth the idea that Oswald killed JFK and the reason that that bullet was able to reach the back of his head even though Oswald was In a trajectory where that would be impossible, it's because the bullet bounced around in all sorts of directions.
00:15:34.000Here's Fauci's version of the magic bullet theory.
00:16:26.000I go straight out of the Wuhan Institute of Virology, I pop into the wet market, I get myself one of them little armadillo things, in a sandwich.
00:17:13.000Yeah, all the while we were talking to Rumble about this deal, about streaming 46 weeks a year, one hour a day, I was thinking, this will be worth it, because one day I'll say, fuck me up the battle, and it will be in.
00:17:53.000Imagine how we're going to get into the conversation with Julian Dix!
00:17:58.000West Ham United player and legend Julian Dix will be joining us in Football Is Nice and you will stay watching it because we care about you and that's the reason.
00:19:29.000Interesting, but whenever revelations about the Biden family's criminal activities heat up in the news, we start hearing government propaganda stories about UFOs, Trump, Ukraine.
00:20:23.000The use of the Espionage Act previously has been used not to prosecute, but to malign, to attack, to exile Edward Snowden.
00:20:31.000The Espionage Act is the very act that Julian Assange would be tried under if he ever faced trial.
00:20:37.000He's still in prison for some reason, even though he's obviously not been convicted of anything, because he hasn't had a trial yet, so how can he be convicted of anything?
00:20:43.000Espionage is the crime that they are trying to level at Donald Trump.
00:20:47.000Now of course he's got, it seems like a lot of boxes of secrets.
00:20:50.000But we've got a lot of questions on those boxes of secrets.
00:20:53.000Who decides what secrets should be kept from us?
00:20:56.000Are these secrets there in order to protect us or control us?
00:21:01.000Based on the last few years, based on what you already know, do you think that these powerful deep state agencies, the media, the judiciary, big government and the corporatized global elites want justice?
00:22:00.000But what's very interesting is the possibility of the fact that the establishment is trying to bring him down using an act that they used successfully to put Assange in jail, to exile Edward Snowden.
00:22:12.000Is it possible that the Espionage Act has become a catch-all piece of legislation to shut down voices that threaten powerful interests?
00:22:20.000And again, I say this from the perspective of someone who is not a MAGA hat-wearing Trump lover, but respect for those of you that hate the establishment from any perspective.
00:22:30.000Much of the content we're creating for you today comes from the website of the World Socialist Organization.
00:22:36.000So this, whatever it may be, is not a right-wing take.
00:22:39.000And yet, it is saying that the establishment are trying to bring down Trump, not because they believe he's a criminal, but because they believe he's a threat.
00:22:47.000Good evening, once again, I'm Stephanie Ruhle.
00:22:50.000This was a day unlike any other in American history.
00:22:54.000Donald Trump, a former commander-in-chief, appeared in a court as a defendant in a case brought by the government he once ran.
00:23:02.000You see that the mainstream media have almost been briefed to say this is a historic event.
00:23:09.000They are amplifying the significance of these events.
00:23:12.000I'm not arguing that they are not significant, but if you compare them to the evident war crimes, alleged war crimes of George Bush, the improprieties of Bill Clinton, the handling of the financial crisis by Barack Obama, I would say that this is a comparable event.
00:23:27.000And just to show you that I'm not a pro-Trump person, I think it's worse that Trump gave tax breaks to the richest Americans that negatively impacted ordinary Americans like you.
00:23:37.000And I think that if he's going to be prosecuted for anything, it should be that.
00:23:41.000So let's look at this in a little more detail.
00:23:43.000Is the Espionage Act being used to bring Trump down the same way it was Assange and Snowden?
00:23:48.000Or is there a genuine concern that Trump was a threat to national security?
00:23:52.000Let me know in the comments in the chat.
00:24:09.000Maybe because he's got some secret documents under there.
00:24:12.000Inside, Trump was arraigned on 37 felony counts, 31 of them in violation of the Espionage Act.
00:24:18.000Now, how is the espionage frequently used, and why is it deployed?
00:24:23.000Is it in order to pursue justice or is it in order to shut down dissent?
00:24:27.000On Tuesday, for the first time in US history, a former president was arraigned in court for violating federal criminal law.
00:24:33.000The decision to indict Donald Trump reflects profound divisions within the ruling class and accelerates a crisis that will rattle the foundations of the American political establishment in the coming weeks and months.
00:24:44.000The indictment centres on Trump's retention of state secrets relating to US imperialism's plans for war.
00:24:50.000Many of you, when sticking up for Donald Trump, often cite the fact that he was a rare example of a president that didn't go to war.
00:24:56.000Now I think some drone strikes continued and stuff like that, but at least he didn't start any new wars.
00:25:01.000So, this is an interesting take, that the establishment, in its imperialist aims, requires ongoing war.
00:25:07.000That's a difficult It appears that companies like Lockheed Martin, sponsors of Gay Pride, bizarrely, and Raytheon and Northrop Grumman have incredible power.
00:25:18.000And as part of a corporate body that is the true governing power of the United States of America, let me know in the comments, are able to impose their aims and desires on the governing administration.
00:25:28.000So you have to decide as a viewer, as an American, as a citizen of the world, what do you think motivates the establishment?
00:25:39.000Or do you think, having observed society for a while now, that dominion and profit appear to be the main motivators when it comes to the actions of the powerful?
00:25:50.000Among the documents that the indictment states Trump kept after leaving office are those detailing the nuclear capabilities of the US and its enemies, as well as attack plans against various countries and contingencies for war.
00:26:02.000Yeah, but he was only showing them a kid rock.
00:26:05.000The state guards such documents as top secret because the population cannot be allowed to know about them.
00:26:10.000Another significant and important question.
00:26:12.000Here are two questions that you could ask yourself.
00:26:34.000To safeguard its secret war plans, the Biden administration's indictment relies for statutory authority almost entirely on the Espionage Act of 1917.
00:26:44.000For over a century, the Espionage Act has served as the sharpest legal implement in the toolshed of state reaction, used for the purpose of suppressing opposition to imperialist war.
00:26:56.000Think about Edward Snowden's current position.
00:26:58.000Think about Julian Assange's current position.
00:27:00.000They were both threatened with prosecution under the Espionage Act.
00:27:03.000Based on just those couple of tidbits, does it seem that the Espionage Act's function is judicial, or do you think it's punitive?
00:27:12.000The Espionage Act, which was based explicitly on the Alien and Sedition Act of 1798, arose in the bloody adolescence of American imperialism when it confronted the outbreak of the First World War and the Russian Revolution.
00:27:25.000Washington followed these developments with the most intense concern and attention and enacted the Espionage Act to protect the state from the threat of revolution and to eliminate obstacles to waging imperialist war.
00:27:36.000We can't continue to bring you this earth-shattering content without support from commercial partners.
00:27:41.000Do you think the mainstream media are going to put their hand out to us?
00:27:43.000Do you think conventional sponsors are going to support this type of content?
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00:29:17.000Since becoming law, the Espionage Act has served as the statutory foundation for the massive national security apparatus that both parties have constructed over the last century.
00:29:26.000In his book, Secrecy, former Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan wrote that with the passage of the Act, the modern age began.
00:29:34.000So this is a significant tool in the establishment of imperialist power.
00:29:39.000Think about how those words resonate in this day and age.
00:29:41.000How often people are censored and smeared on the basis of conspiracy.
00:29:43.000election or opposition. He continued, three new institutions had entered American life.
00:29:49.000Conspiracy, loyalty, secrecy. Think about how those words resonate in this day and age.
00:29:55.000How often people are censored and smeared on the basis of conspiracy. Think about how
00:30:00.000fealty, loyalty to the cause is cited.
00:30:04.000Think how we're supposed to accept certain ideological constructs that may not be beneficial to us and also might be a matter of personal choice rather than state dicta.
00:30:13.000And secrecy, think of the contradiction that exists now when all of your information has become accessible by state power That's what Snowden's revelations outlined and detailed and it continues to this very day and in fact has got worse since then but they are able to keep information from you.
00:30:31.000There is a bigger conversation to be had here.
00:30:34.000It's bigger even than Donald Trump and his almighty appeal and ego.
00:30:38.000Is it the role of government to keep information from you?
00:30:42.000To have the sole privilege over who can be surveilled, who can have violence enacted upon them, or are there new ways of organising democracy?
00:30:50.000Each had antecedents, but now there was a difference.
00:30:55.000Bureaucracies were established to attend to each.
00:30:57.000In time there would be a Federal Bureau of Investigation to keep track of conspiracy at home, a Central Intelligence Agency to keep tabs abroad.
00:31:05.000An espionage statuette and loyalty boards to root out disloyalty or subversion.
00:31:10.000When we talk about the deep state and their power, when we talk about the deep state meddling with social media, a new, apparently independent form of communication, we are talking about agencies that are founded on these principles.
00:31:22.000Perhaps it therefore can be argued that the establishment's problems with Donald Trump aren't based on morality or even criminality, but his ability to subvert and bypass systems of deep state control long established.
00:31:34.000Let me know what you think in the chat.
00:31:35.000And all of this would be maintained and the national security would be secured through elaborate regimes of secrecy.
00:31:42.000Over the course of the 20th century, the Espionage Act has been utilised by Republican and Democratic administrations to carry out some of its most atrocious crimes.
00:31:50.000During the Second World War, after Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Attorney General Francis Biddle had convicted 18 members of the Socialist Worker Party under the Smith Act for opposing the war, Biddle used the Espionage Act to bar the SWP from distributing its publication, The Militant, through the mail.
00:32:06.000In exactly the same way that opposition to the Ukrainian war would be censored now.
00:32:10.000Under the auspices of new agencies like misinformation, malinformation, etc.
00:32:15.000Exactly the same way that during the pandemic opposing even now admittedly true voices were censored and controlled.
00:32:21.000Here we see the seeds that have grown into the state apparatus that's being used today to convict Trump and to control all of us.
00:32:27.000In the years following the Second World War, the Espionage Act served as the pseudo-legal backbone for the anti-communist witch hunts of the 1950s, including, most notoriously, the murder of Ethel and Julius Rosenberg on June 19, 1953, on trumped-up charges that they conspired to conduct atomic espionage for the Soviet Union.
00:32:46.000The government decided to charge the Rosenbergs under the Espionage Act, rather than the Atomic Secrets Act, because the former carried a death penalty, while the latter did not.
00:32:54.000In 1971, the Nixon administration charged Daniel Ellsberg with violating the Espionage Act after the former RAND employee provided the New York Times and Washington Post with the Pentagon Papers, which detailed the war plans and crimes of US imperialism in Southeast Asia.
00:33:09.000It's just a short time ago that this state power was used to persecute the other side of the political argument.
00:33:15.000That's why it's so important that regardless of your current political affiliations, you're able to track tyranny in any form, that you're able to peel away the veneers and recognize that what's underneath it is a desire to control you, to impede your freedom, and to make it look necessary.
00:33:30.000Though presidential administrations of the 20th century were hesitant to use the Espionage Act too often, any restraint was abandoned by Barack Obama, whose Justice Department prosecuted more people under the Espionage Act than all previous presidents combined.
00:33:45.000Not part of the narrative often heard in the celebration of his doubtless skills as a charismatic leader and orator.
00:33:51.000The Obama administration's prosecutions focused solely on stopping leaks of military documents to the press, which essentially means stopping you finding out the truth about your government and what you pay for in foreign wars.
00:34:04.000Those prosecuted by Obama included Jeffrey Alexander Sterling, a former CIA officer who revealed to New York Times journalist James Risen details of covert CIA spying on Iran, Thomas Drake, a former National Security Agency official who attempted to blow the whistle on NSA spying, to the Baltimore Sun, Chelsea Manning who provided
00:34:21.000information about US war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan to WikiLeaks, John Kirikou who leaked
00:34:25.000information about the illegal torture of detainees, Edward Snowden who provided journalists with
00:34:30.000a massive document showing the NSA were engaged in massive illegal surveillance
00:34:35.000Yeah, but it was only the world's population.
00:34:37.000And Daniel Hale who leaked internal military documents about the Pentagon's drone assassination
00:34:42.000Each use of the Espionage Act will have been sold to you for your safety, for your protection.
00:34:47.000But doesn't it actually show massive government corruption?
00:34:51.000The decision to prosecute Trump under the Espionage Act comes as the Biden administration continues to fight to extradite WikiLeaks publisher Julian Assange from Belmarsh Prison in London where it's been locked in a cell for four years.
00:35:02.000Assange's crime is that he published evidence of massive war crimes conducted by American imperialism and its allies.
00:35:08.000He faces a potential 170-year prison sentence under Espionage Act charges.
00:35:13.000Well, at least when Trump goes to prison for the first 170 years, he can be mates with Julian Assange.
00:35:17.000Amidst the voluminous media commentary on the indictment, there is little discussion of the content and implications of the documents Trump removed from the White House.
00:35:26.000Which involve the most dangerous and explosive secrets that the US military and intelligence apparatus possess.
00:35:31.000Yeah, I'd like to know actually what's in these documents are so worrying and is it as bad as former war crimes?
00:35:58.000He is the former commander-in-chief of the US military.
00:36:00.000But the prosecution of Donald Trump under the Espionage Act can produce no progressive outcome.
00:36:05.000This is precisely why the Democratic Party has selected the Espionage Act as its legal vehicle for attempting to remove Trump from the political arena.
00:36:12.000Even the World Socialist Organization are willing to recognize that the function of this trial is to remove Trump from the political arena.
00:36:19.000And even if you hate Trump, wouldn't you prefer a political arena that didn't rely on these means?
00:36:24.000Wouldn't you prefer a political climate that wasn't reduced to just dismissing and smearing their opponents rather than improving their own game?
00:36:32.000They cannot improve their own game because they are owned by corporate interests.
00:36:36.000This effort is motivated in particular by Trump's stated positions on the US-NATO war against Russia over Ukraine.
00:36:42.000The Biden administration is absolutely committed to the war against Russia over Ukraine.
00:36:46.000The initiation of the Ukrainian counteroffensive last week is the precursor to a massive escalation of US-NATO involvement in the war.
00:36:53.000That's good because this is something we'll be able to track, won't we?
00:36:55.000We'll be able to see if in the coming weeks there is an escalation.
00:36:58.000We'll be able to look, won't we, at Lockheed Martin and Raytheon's profits, and we'll be able to look to see which Pentagon officials formerly held posts at Raytheon or Lockheed Martin, like the current Minister of Defence.
00:37:08.000We'll be able to decide for ourselves if this analysis is true, won't we?
00:37:12.000A direct intervention involving NATO troops is coming and may not be far off.
00:37:16.000Under these conditions, the American ruling class, or at least significant sections of He's not prepared to accept Trump as the leader of its foreign policy.
00:37:24.000Trump is the leading Republican candidate for president and the prospect of his return to office is a very real and dangerous one.
00:37:30.000But the ruling class knows that the war which the US and NATO are escalating against Russia will unleash profound opposition and they are preparing their mechanisms to suppress and illegalize anti-war sentiment and crush strikes that threaten production.
00:37:43.000The Espionage Act will no doubt be used for this purpose.
00:37:47.000So you can decide for yourself the veracity of this analysis from the World Socialist Organization, who I think are not right-wing.
00:37:56.000Have you noticed an increase in surveillance?
00:37:58.000Have you noticed an increase in censorship?
00:38:00.000Have you noticed an inability to oppose military action?
00:38:03.000Have you noticed an escalation in tensions between the US and China?
00:38:06.000Have you noticed that the establishment is determined to pursue its agenda at any cost?
00:38:11.000Have you noticed that there is no real democracy in America?
00:38:14.000Have you noticed that there is a requirement for real and radical change and isn't that what we should be addressing?
00:38:21.000Giving people real democratic options.
00:38:23.000Removing the hegemony that currently has co-opted the Democrat Party.
00:38:27.000Allowing debates between Joe Biden, Marianne Williamson and RFK.
00:38:32.000Letting the people decide for themselves.
00:38:34.000We've already seen what happened when a even slightly radical figure like Bernie Sanders emerged within the Democrat Party.
00:38:40.000He was shut down and now he votes for war along with the rest of them.
00:38:43.000In this instance, in this argument, what we have to recognize is that Trump is being shut down because he's a threat to the establishment.
00:38:50.000And whether you like it or not, the facts appear to speak for themselves.
00:39:06.000Why do we even have the category of classification beyond matters that are of direct threat to the domestic population of America and their allies?
00:39:50.000And what a week it's been in the beautiful game with West Ham United
00:39:55.000quite rightly being crowned Kings of Europe with their victory against
00:40:01.000Fiorentina in the only European competition that matters.
00:40:05.000Elsewhere, Manchester City had a narrow victory against Inter Milan that no one seems to very much This is very much a week defined by West Ham United and their successes.
00:40:19.000In fact, this story for me evokes the purpose of this podcast.
00:40:24.000That football can be an opportunity for communities to come together, to find unity and unification.
00:40:29.000A ceremony can be created that unleashes elsewhere repressed joy.
00:40:34.000Where was the joy before it was unleashed by West Ham's victory against Fiorentina?
00:40:40.000What condition were my dad's ribs in before the goal celebration that followed Jared Bowen's 90th minute strike?
00:40:50.000In a way, like, in fact, Our abilities to predict things look fantastic, because I think I said something about Saeed Benrahma last week, prior to the game.
00:40:58.000You certainly brought up Jared Bowen, and I believe you correctly predicted the entire score, making you very much the man-city of our own Little League, a corporatised giant.
00:41:14.000Later on, we're going to be talking to Julian Dix, who's perhaps West Ham's most beloved ever full-back, along with the likes of Ray Stewart, Geordie Parrish, you know, I mean, the list goes on.
00:41:37.000And there's no doubt in the hardness of Julian Dix, who we'll be talking to a little bit later about his book, Hammer Time, Me, West Ham and a Passion for the Shirt.
00:41:47.000About time someone referenced MC Hammer in the title of their autobiography.
00:41:51.000Julian Dix was the man to ultimately do that.
00:41:55.000What a week it's been for me in West Ham Heroes.
00:41:58.000Before we get into the events of Prague, which is where the final took place, I want to tell you a personal story.
00:42:07.000In the semi-final against AZ Alkmaar, Like West Ham, there was some violence.
00:42:13.000Of course that didn't involve West Ham fans, who historically have been among the best behaved fans in the game.
00:42:20.000But it did involve those, I'm going to call them Dutch monsters, of AZ Alkmaar, who invaded the friends and family section at the stadium for the away game there in Amsterdam.
00:42:32.000One man, or two men, stood against the tide, the torrent of hooligans.
00:43:01.000When you think about it, it's ludicrous that anyone would claim to own a street, a river, or anything, because we're all temporarily here, and it seems that there is some permanent haunting within nature that belies the deeper truth that none of us own anything, not even our own bodies, our own lives.
00:43:15.000Anyway, they were filming Midsomer Murders, which is like a British Cop show that's all very sort of slow and lethargic like American cop shows are very much like
00:45:04.000How exactly did he acquire this desire?
00:45:07.000Well, he was in a bat cave, carrying out his normal routine of bat-related activities, culminating, of course, in the world-famous bat fuck, and then he became a vigilante.
00:45:16.000That's a reference to the rest of the show.
00:45:17.000You'll have to watch that on Rumble if you listen to this as a podcast.
00:45:21.000Anyway, so... So, you saw the Midsomer Murders were being filmed.
00:45:30.000Hang on a second guest appearance in Neighbors guest appearance in Midsomer murders more like yeah, and I thought I'll get guest appearance out of this and also I can do I like Like you can't stop me doing what I like so I went by boat to the end of the garden Yeah, I was like and like someone went Shh!
00:46:37.000Go and get the first, I ain't even talking to you, mate.
00:46:39.000Anyway, so the first AB comes over, a few people recognise me, it starts to seem like I'm being welcomed, quite rightly, as a visiting dignitary, which is what I am.
00:46:46.000You were up in for John Nettles, weren't you?
00:47:10.000Like that, and he's a unit, he's a big fella, and also I'm sort of engaged in what could be regarded as an act of essentially trespass, because I'm coming into a territory, but that's the very thing that those AZ Alkmaar fans were doing.
00:48:51.000Well, the reason that we're celebrating football is because of heroes like Knowlesy who emerge from the context of the game and the ceremonies they're in.
00:50:12.000This is about the co-opting of your beautiful club by corporate interests and even national interests, global
00:50:20.000interests, that currently align with your agenda as a fan
00:50:23.000because you want to see your team win.
00:50:26.000I went on Talk Sport with the brilliant Simon Jordan and adorable Jim White, and we had a conversation about how, like, you know, the problem in the game is player wages.
00:50:34.000And I said, that can't be the problem in the game, player wages, because the intention of the various corporate and globalist interests that are perched in football clubs Can't be.
00:50:49.000And when you know what that reason is, corporatisation, sports washing, commodification, creating global brands, ultimately a global super league, that is the thing that needs to be addressed by regulation.
00:51:00.000If you regulate a symptom, you don't deal with the problem.
00:51:05.000If not, Simon Jordan, who's going to come on the show, actually, he's going to come here live, Gareth, so we'll be dealing with Simon Jordan.
00:51:48.000He's sort of like the level of emotional commitment.
00:51:50.000And also the, sort of, the bus tour at, like, around East London, which I was, I didn't attend, was, like, just looked amazing.
00:51:59.000I can't help but think what would happen if you were able to harness and direct this energy that's plainly there and is released at the moment of victory.
00:52:09.000What would happen if it was directed towards the very thing that football is, in my opinion, essentially celebrating togetherness, unity, common cause, overcoming the odds, many, many themes, many themes.
00:52:19.000But I wonder what would happen if it was differently Yeah, you're right, because it also, it doesn't pertain to whatever level the victory comes at, you know, like you were saying, like, you know, I watch the conference final and the, you know, Wrexham going up and the kind of euphoria that can come, it doesn't matter what level it is.
00:52:41.000And then, you know, Knox County and all that.
00:52:52.000But when you see the kind of passion and the joy that it elicits and creates, you're right that we all have that ability in us.
00:53:01.000We all want to feel the way that these people are feeling.
00:53:05.000We just don't have the opportunity to.
00:53:07.000Yogananda, the mystic and prophet, said that within you is a river of joy, that you are prevented from accessing by your conditioning, but it is there.
00:53:17.000The function of ceremony, beyond the context of sport, is to elicit and access energies that are otherwise latent and dormant.
00:53:24.000That's the point in a wedding or a funeral.
00:53:27.000In an increasingly secularised society, you don't get the opportunity for religious ceremony anymore, because religion has been superseded by rationalism.
00:53:36.000But when, even in a sporting context, you create ceremonies, you rightly say, Gareth, it doesn't matter what the economic rewards are, or even the degree of excellence that we're celebrating.
00:53:48.000There's obviously no question that Manchester City are the best football team in the world.
00:53:55.000I mean, they're a phenomenal team, managed by an extraordinary coach, with incredible resources, playing the game to an unbelievably high level.
00:54:06.000But the fact is that elsewhere, as you say, mate, whether it's Notts County or Wrexham or West Ham winning a cup where, if you look at it plainly on paper, there's the teams that qualify for the Champions League, then there's the teams that qualify for the Europa League, Then there's the teams that qualify for the Europa League.
00:54:26.000I've always thought that the play-offs in which the top teams of a division outside of the top two, so the teams between usually third and seventh or sixth, play against each other.
00:54:36.000I've always thought, bloody hell, that's sort of better than if you'd gone up as champions, really.
00:54:41.000You get a day at a stadium, you get a trophy, it's exciting, it's thrilling, because the ceremony Unleash is something that's there anyway.
00:55:09.000Although elsewhere, the tragedies are directly connected to football, particularly with the club Liverpool, with the disasters around the 97 that died and the Heysel disaster.
00:55:21.000David Moyes, the manager of West Ham, has been derided.
00:55:27.000He took the poison chalice of managing Manchester United immediately after Ferguson and whilst his success in retrospect is comparable to some of the other people that have taken on the role in the interceding years.
00:55:39.000He was sort of much maligned in these periods at Sunderland and Real Sociedad were regarded as failures.
00:55:44.000So he similarly is affected by the ceremony.
00:55:46.000He's not like, oh, well, this is a third tier European competition.
00:55:50.000I mean, if you didn't know anything about football, and I barely do, you would sort of think, well, how would you measure The importance of the event.
00:57:29.000Watching that, that has the ability to make me cry more than watching like a really emotional film.
00:57:34.000Like something about, things like that.
00:57:36.000I know it's, we always kind of talk about it, it's the kind of masculinity that you associate with the male version of football mixed with the kind of emotions, it's incredible.
00:57:46.000It's a very powerful elixir, that, because we can intuit that David Moyes, who was centre-back in his playing career, throughout his life would have had a relationship with his father, the encouragement of his father, he would have shared in the disappointments and the heartbreak with his father, and in that moment...
00:58:03.000When it comes to his moment of absolute triumph, he gives it to his father.
00:58:07.000It's like that's more powerful than words can deliver.
00:58:11.000So when people are talking about football, they're not talking about football.
00:58:15.000They're talking about love, or they're talking about disappointment, or they're talking about betrayal, they're talking about injustice.
00:58:20.000It's a very, very powerful social tool.
00:58:22.000And I've always, not always, but I now believe That the movements that coalesce and gather around football could be mobilized to create a powerful and potent social movement.
00:58:35.000And here's a person who understands the powerful elixir that is masculinity, skill and footballing greatness.
00:58:43.000Played 325 times for West Ham, during which period he scored 65 goals.
00:58:49.000He's a West Ham legend in the truest sense of of the word. Legend means the story is often told and he
00:59:01.000Thanks for coming on to talk about your book, Hammer Time.
00:59:04.000Me, West Ham, and a passion for the shirt.
00:59:06.000There's some fantastic stories in here.
00:59:08.000The one that's caught my attention is about you sharing a room with Paul Gascoigne.
00:59:13.000We talk about Paul Gascoigne a lot, because as well as being one of the best footballers these islands have ever produced, he somehow represented something beyond football.
00:59:23.000Like, almost everyone who knows Paul Gascoigne will tell a story about him, like, Being in their house in the dead of night or stealing a double-decker bus as an actual example.
00:59:32.000What happened to you when you shared a room with Gazza, Julian?
00:59:37.000Well, we were away with the under-21s in Toulon in France, and Dave Sexton, the manager, said, who wants to share with Paul Gascoigne?
01:00:07.000Why do you think in the middle of the night, Paul Gascoigne thinks, I'll tell you what, I'm gonna one put my face in Julian's... No, my arse in Julian's face.
01:00:17.000If he'd put his face in your arse, would that have been worse or better?
01:01:16.000Letting him put his arse in your face and letting him set off firecrackers and stuff like that?
01:01:21.000Mate, could you tell us about that time that you went to a nightclub in Singapore and you had an injury at the time?
01:01:30.000Yeah, I broke my ankle a few weeks before, and we were going to Australia, so our stop-off was over in Singapore, and Frank Lampard was looking after us at the time.
01:01:40.000Harry wasn't there, but Frank was looking after us.
01:01:43.000He said, like, you can go out for a boys' night out.
01:02:11.000And I went back to the nightclub and the bouncer let me in.
01:02:16.000As a proper in my day story, I can't imagine today's revelers like Jack Grealish being willing to get the old bread knife out and hack off a cast.
01:02:26.000Julian, in a recent poll you were voted, I think, the hardest footballer above the likes of Razor Ruddick, Vinnie Jones, and of course, Big Dunk Ferguson.
01:03:37.000And if I caught them two or three times, they wouldn't come back.
01:03:42.000I see, so it's in a sense using maybe a slightly less explicit aspect of the sport to gain an advantage.
01:03:53.000But one of the other things that a lot of people know, but many people watching may not know, is that your managerial career and your career as a coach has involved coaching female teams, West Ham ladies and I think some other clubs as well.
01:04:06.000There's almost... part of the culture war is about the ownership of the sport.
01:04:11.000You can see that, like, women's football is, in my view, correctly promoted, but it seems to be somehow a cultural project.
01:04:18.000It's interesting for me, at least, Julian, to think that whilst in the game you were very much regarded at the extreme end of masculinity, particularly if you associate masculinity with combat and violence, and yet you have become a very successful figure within the female game.
01:04:34.000Can you tell me, are those two worlds at odds with one another?
01:04:39.000What differences are there in the games?
01:04:41.000Or do the same fundamental principles apply regardless of gender or sex?
01:04:46.000For me, as a manager of managing the West Ham ladies, it was the same.
01:05:10.000So when you watch the games, for me, unless it's a final, there's not enough people really supporting the women's football.
01:05:18.000So you are an advocate for the women's game and support of the women's game more broadly, and you regard them essentially to be the same thing.
01:05:26.000Mate, what did you think about events in Prague?
01:05:30.000Do you think it's significant for West Ham?
01:05:32.000Me and Gareth were talking about the fact that even though anyone who knows anything about the game recognizes that it's, you know, the third tier of European
01:05:40.000football, it doesn't seem that that's proportionate to the emotional
01:05:44.000impact, or the cultural impact, or the social impact it's had on
01:06:00.000I was at the Indigo Bar at the O2, and it was electric there.
01:06:05.000I mean, there was two and a half thousand fans there, and it was a magnificent night, especially when Boeing scored that late, late goal in the 90th minute, even though the referee played an extra eight minutes.
01:06:19.000It was just a magical night, and it's been a long time coming for West Ham.
01:06:23.000Thanks for sending that message to my dad, Ron Brand, who broke his ribs when we celebrated that goal.
01:06:29.000And my mate, James Okinajan, moved too rapidly and aggressively towards me, causing me to barrel eventually into my dad and for him to break three ribs.
01:07:43.000And like I said, the crowd come on the pitch.
01:07:46.000Again, it reminded me a bit of the cup final when everybody just was so happy.
01:07:53.000For weeks and weeks, they were just happy.
01:07:57.000Yeah, like the next day after the final, like during the final itself, I felt a bit numb and I know my dad did because of his horrific respiratory system injuries.
01:08:06.000But like, uh, the next day is when I was looking at like the press conference, I felt sort of like, I felt very tearful about it.
01:08:14.000It brought to the surface a lot of emotions.
01:08:18.000Uh, Gareth's a Hull fan and has a particular affiliation for and affinity with Jared Bowen that famous chart now
01:08:26.000Bowens on fire and he's shagging Danny Dyer It seems to have become an unofficial anthem of it Danny Dyer
01:08:33.000is the daughter of celebrity and actor Danny Dyer Very much an East End folk hero and very brilliant
01:08:40.000Actor it's pretty it's pretty amazing the way these sort of phenomena emerge out of the game
01:08:45.000Julian and it like the culture is so sort of potent extraordinary things continue like a merge people's destiny
01:08:52.000Gets written in moments like that and now Jared Bowen's sex life is going to be something forever connected to that
01:11:00.000Julian's book, Hammer Time, is out now.
01:11:03.000The other thing about that song, Bowie's on Fire, and the first time we ever discussed it, mate, was when it was sung about Will Greig, because of the Sunderland Till I Die documentary.
01:11:38.000That's a weird thing to have a song about, because that's a very... I mean, that's actually one of the most spiritual concepts that there is.
01:12:35.000If this, if did Jack make that because that's his best graphic Achievement, in my opinion, because yellow indicates correct score, green is 100% correct.
01:12:45.000Gareth correctly predicted the result.
01:12:48.000In fact, after when Fiorentina equalised on the night, you went, my prediction was 2-1.