Russell Brand sits down with Matt Walsh to discuss racism, Christianity and the history of slavery, and the film, Am I Racist? by Matt Walsh, director of the show, The Matt Walsh Show on Daily Wire, to discuss the themes explored in the new film, and how they relate to racism and slavery in American history, as well as racism in American culture, and Christianity and guilt, as discussed in the film. (birds chirping) (Upbeat music) by Birds Chirping (upbeat music by Upbeat) This episode is sponsored by Pfizer. In this video, you're going to see the future. In this episode of Stay Free With Russell Brand, my guest is Matt Walsh. Some consider Matt Walsh a right-wing provocateur, or maybe an alt-right Borat character, setting up scenarios in which, by their own unwitting participation, his dupes are exposed. Now, Matt Walsh is also a Christian, so we talk about Christianity as well, and racism, slavery, Christianity, and guilt. I would love to know what you guys think of this interesting conversation. Let me know your thoughts and reactions in the comments section below! Stay Free with Russell Brand! - - Matt Walsh - Daily Wire - "Matt Walsh Show" - "The Matt Walsh show" - "Daily Wire" . Matt Walsh - "Am I racist?" - What is a Woman?" - "What is a Racist?" is a film about racism? - . . . - Am I racist? - What does racism mean to you? What do you think of race and slavery? ? - Is it a question you would like to see in a movie about race and racism? What does it have to do with race and its relation to Christianity? , and its relationship to guilt? and what does it mean to race? or what is a woman ? Why do we need to be a woman in the world of race, racism and in this film? in the movie Am I m a woman? And what does a woman tell me about race, and what does that mean by race and I m going to believe in it? (and I ll let you know what I'm going to do in the next step in the rabbit hole? & so much more!
00:02:45.000Some consider him a right-wing provocateur or maybe an alt-right Borat character setting up scenarios in which, by their own unwitting participation, his dupes are Excuse me, exposed.
00:03:00.000Now, Matt Walsh is also a Christian, so we talk about Christianity as well as racism and the subjects of his film, the history of slavery, DEI, Christianity and guilt.
00:03:42.000Imagine of the presumed demographic of, say, even Daily Wire, which is a sort of a growing demographic, let's face it, and perhaps did something successfully that had not been achieved up till then, presented arguments that had become taboo in a way that might be appealing to A wider audience.
00:04:04.000Your new film, Am I Racist?, I understand is doing the same thing with regard to arguments around race.
00:04:16.000The dynamics around all of these subjects seem to be shifting radically at the moment.
00:04:22.000Do you consider your role, Matt, to be to pose questions, to offer conclusions and Yeah, I'll just stop there.
00:04:32.000What do you consider to be the function of the films?
00:04:35.000Yeah, I think that's a big part of it, is the post-question.
00:04:38.000Especially the first film we did, What Is A Woman, as you mentioned.
00:04:41.000And, I mean, the question's right there in the title.
00:04:43.000The whole premise of the film is that in the world of gender ideology, there's Well, they really can't answer any questions at all about their ideology, because it's all really quite fundamentally nonsensical.
00:04:55.000But they can answer this one basic foundational question, which is, what is a woman?
00:05:05.000And they can't answer that question, and so really the whole movie is just me.
00:05:10.000I ask a lot of other questions, but every interview comes down to that one question with the people that are... and talking to people that are, you know, not just... we talked to some people that are just walking across in the street, but we're also talking to the supposed experts in this field and kind of letting the house of cards fall apart.
00:05:28.000In the new film, Am I Racist?, there's a question in the title, but it's not the same kind of question.
00:05:34.000What is a woman is a question that the gender ideologues don't want to answer, they're afraid of.
00:05:38.000Am I racist is a question that the racial ideologues, the race baiters and the DEI grifters, they love to answer that question.
00:05:45.000They're not afraid of telling me that I'm racist.
00:05:48.000So, it's a bit different in that that's kind of the question that starts me on this journey of self-discovery, shall we say, in the film, where I get into the world of anti-racism, race-grifting, DEI.
00:06:03.000And one of the real differences between the two movies is that, in What Is A Woman?, I kind of maintain a skeptical attitude Sort of a blank slate through the whole movie.
00:06:11.000I don't really have an opinion myself until the very end.
00:06:15.000In this one, we decided we're flipping our side a little bit in that rather than being skeptical, I'm going to go into this and I'll just believe whatever they tell me.
00:06:24.000And at least sort of I'll play as though I'm believing everything they tell me.
00:07:32.000So you've taken as your mode almost a kind of a Sacha Baron Cohen technique of a savant
00:07:41.000like character who takes at face value the perspectives of the antagonists and people
00:07:48.000that he or you in this instance encounter and see where that would naturally take us.
00:07:53.000And although you sort of point out that there are distinctions certainly in the questions, and it's brilliant I suppose, I reckon, to have questions as the inciting incident for your movies, But both the why's a woman an unanswerable question and am I racist a definitively answerable question yes you are a racist you're racist unless you or if you have ever and almost I'm presuming there's no escape from the diagnosis of racist and that's one of the the ideas that you're examining.
00:08:23.000Both of those areas, it seems to me, are designed or have culturally created conditions where there's a great deal of uncertainty about what constitutes the correct behaviour.
00:08:37.000And there's also, I think, a real Offering a real opportunity, rather, for people to be condemned if they don't say the right thing or don't believe the right thing.
00:08:48.000And I wonder, do you think that both of these... Let's talk about your current film that you're currently promoting, Am I Racist?
00:08:56.000Do you think That this method and modality is peaked, and that we're going to come out the other side?
00:09:02.000Or do you think there's further to go with that kind of divisiveness?
00:09:04.000Because I'll tell you what, we'll tell you why I'm posing the question that way, because it seems to me that actually, and maybe your film contributed to this, the arguments around gender have altered.
00:09:13.000For example, Keir Starmer, the UK Prime Minister, for a while, you know, wouldn't answer the question, what is a woman?
00:09:20.000But, you know, say six months ago, now he would say, well no, if you have a You know, this chromosome, that chromosome, then you're... The culture has changed a little bit with regard to the issues around your former film.
00:09:33.000Where do you think we are on that trajectory with the subject of race?
00:09:37.000Yeah, well, I think, just to start with the former film, I think you're exactly right that I've noticed... Well, even in the US, for example, there's been big political changes, legislative changes.
00:09:46.000There are actually laws against mutilating children in, you know...
00:09:53.000I don't know how many states now, but many states.
00:09:56.000But even more, it's the cultural change.
00:09:58.000I mean, in What Is A Woman, we filmed this three years ago, and we did go and do kind of man-on-the-street interviews in several cities across the country, and we found at the time that No matter who we were talking to, demographic-wise, old, young, white, black, it didn't matter.
00:10:16.000Most people were terrified to talk about the issue.
00:10:19.000They were terrified to even admit that they could define the word woman, even though all of them, of course, knew the answer, but they didn't want to answer it.
00:10:26.000Ask them a question like, should men be allowed in the women's room?
00:10:31.000And most people at that time didn't want to say no, even though we know that their answer is no.
00:10:37.000I think if I went out and did those manless street interviews in the exact same places again, three, four years later, I think the vast majority of people that I stop on the street would say, yeah, a woman's an adult human female.
00:10:47.000No, men don't belong in the women's room.
00:11:17.000But I think that if you get 100 people in the room and you say the phrase DEI to them, like 98 of them will have heard of it.
00:11:25.000And almost all of that 98 will kind of roll their eyes.
00:11:29.000Like, they'll have heard of it that has a negative connotation for them.
00:11:32.000Kind of similar to what's happened with CRT a couple years before that, where, you know, nobody had heard of critical race theory, and then all of a sudden everyone had heard of it, and most people recognized it as a bad thing.
00:11:43.000And I think a similar thing's happening with DEI.
00:11:45.000Now, the only problem, of course, is that when we get to the point where DEI is roundly condemned by almost everybody, Does it just go away?
00:11:57.000No, any more than, you know, CRT didn't go away.
00:11:59.000Now they look for a way to rebrand it.
00:12:01.000They take these same ideas and they look for new packaging.
00:12:05.000And so you always have to be on the lookout for that.
00:12:08.000What's the new packaging for these same ideas that these race grifters have really been pushing for decades?
00:12:15.000There's nothing wrong with helping vulnerable people, but I suppose you, like me, are cynical as to whether or not helping vulnerable people is really the motivating idea behind many of these initiatives, in a kind of a literal Christian way, if you take the...
00:12:33.000Uh, adage by their fruits shall you know them.
00:12:37.000These kind of ideas seem to create opposition, division, concern, confusion, and doubt.
00:12:46.000I wonder on the subject of race, say if you were to take the, um, Easily vilified and frequently condemned cultural group of, like, even if you were to say it's such a thing as the most extreme MAGA voter existed, like a white male from the South, hunting, maybe been in the military or whatever.
00:13:07.000Like, I might imagine that those people would have quite an easy relationship around the subject of race.
00:13:13.000If you take people that work in the services, accept it and assume that you're going to work with people that are from diverse racial backgrounds.
00:13:23.000If you come from the kind of communities that I sense have been, from which a lot of MAGA grassroots support are drawn, it's likely that it's necessary for you to form relationships with people from different ethnic and cultural backgrounds, because it just seems that blue-collar backgrounds and people from low income, forgive the sort of, you know, the reductiveness of this inquiry, tend to have to live tooth by cheek by jowl and have to get along together.
00:13:52.000So I wonder, I wonder from where the legitimacy of these initiatives is drawn.
00:14:01.000To give you a very sort of broad sketch of a set of ideas I'd love to hear your thoughts on, when you pass through some normal country town in Britain and see it adorned with rainbow flags, and I bet similar things happen in your country too, you wonder, who is this for?
00:14:21.000If we were to approach this, Matt, in good faith, would you say that it's comparable even to seeing the stars and stripes in your National Union Jack in mine?
00:14:31.000Do you think that what's being offered is that if you live under what would be commonly termed the patriarchy, And under a sort of presumed nationalist rubric, you are having imposed upon you a set of ideas that are somehow marginalising, are somehow repressive, and that there is some requirement for a pushback.
00:14:54.000I suppose now I'm starting to understand my question is, is there legitimacy at all to DEI arguments or conversations around gender? Or is
00:15:05.000there some legitimacy and if so, what is it and how could it be brought into the culture in
00:15:10.000a way that didn't feel so propagandist and exploitative and untrustworthy?
00:15:16.000From the rest of the show, cannot be on YouTube because Matt Walsh and I are going to speak a
00:15:22.000little more freely now, so click the link in the description and join us over on Rumble.
00:15:28.000No, I don't think, yeah, it's an interesting thought.
00:15:33.000Well, to answer your question most directly, I don't think the kind of DEI ideology, DEI policies that are pushed through, you know, in corporate America and in government and in academia, I don't think there's any legitimacy to those at all.
00:15:48.000I think they're just like, they're fundamentally poisonous and toxic because they're all based in an idea of You know, racism, the way that they would define racism, if they were to define it honestly, what they actually think, they would say that white people are inherently racist, and that only white people can be racist, because racism is a white construct.
00:16:27.000I mean, but as you point out, I think if you go to a lot of these communities that would be condemned as being bastions of bigotry, You'll find there that they talk about race.
00:16:39.000They just don't have the hang-ups about it.
00:16:40.000In fact, in the movie, I don't want to give any spoilers away, but one of the places that I go in the film is in the south to a biker bar that has confederate flags hanging on the walls.
00:16:51.000And it's just nothing but a bunch of, you know, blue-collar, white bikers with confederate flag, you know, on the wall and tattoos, some of them.
00:17:01.000And of course, we're playing it for laughs a little bit, because I'm throwing all these far-left ideas at them just to see how they react to it.
00:17:10.000But then when we get down to actually talking about race issues, they have really normal things to say.
00:17:17.000They say, hey, look, we all believe the same, and I don't care if you're black or white, doesn't matter.
00:17:24.000You have to go into these kind of White liberal urban areas to find the places where when you bring up race, it's just there's this like silence that falls over the room and everybody gets really tense and awkward about it.
00:17:39.000And then one of the first things we do in the film is I go to a support group.
00:17:48.000You're all sitting around in a circle, and it's all a bunch of white people.
00:17:53.000And the support group is for white people who are experiencing grief over their whiteness, essentially.
00:17:59.000And the group is led by this black woman, kind of this DEI expert.
00:18:06.000Just sitting in the room with these people again for the film we're trying to play for laughs but these are real people and they're all and I was there for like two hours in you know in real time as they're all talking about All these feelings they have about being white.
00:18:21.000And I'm sitting there, as I think a normal person myself, and in my mind I'm thinking, I've never had any of these thoughts.
00:18:29.000I can't believe that you're walking around every day actually feeling this burden of guilt.
00:18:37.000Just because of the color of your skin.
00:18:38.000And I've thought a lot about that, this kind of white guilt that these people seem to actually feel.
00:18:45.000Might be some virtue signaling involved, but I think that there's something real underneath it.
00:18:48.000I think they do feel the guilt, and I think that there's kind of a spiritual explanation.
00:18:53.000If I was to look at it through a Christian lens as a Christian, you know, everybody has guilt.
00:19:00.000We all feel guilt because we are all sinners, and we all are members of a fallen species, the human race.
00:19:07.000And so we all have guilt, but if you're a member of, let's say, a traditional religion, the religion comes to you and gives you a way to understand that guilt, gives you a framework for understanding it, and also something to do with it and about it.
00:19:26.000But if you don't have religion, you still experience the guilt because you're still a person.
00:19:50.000And so you will never actually be free of the guilt.
00:19:54.000Atonement, there's none of that in the end for these people.
00:19:57.000That's the great tragedy of it, I think.
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00:21:21.000All right, let's get back to this content.
00:21:23.000I think that's an excellent framing looking at it from a spiritual perspective where the function of spirituality becomes prevalent and it is of course easy to dismiss a spiritual purview as being somehow Impractical and not connected to reality but in your example you demonstrate that it's precisely its pragmatism that makes it valuable.
00:21:47.000The acknowledgement that there is indeed an inhered feeling of sin but the possibility of redemption not through moral action but through the salvation offered through Jesus Christ.
00:21:57.000I've got a bunch of points to make Matt.
00:21:59.000I think you might, I hope you find interesting.
00:22:01.000When you said early in your answer that there's the idea that racism is inherent If racism is inherent, it would warrant being regarded almost as a protected characteristic.
00:22:14.000If there's nothing that you can do about it, if it is inhered, then it would qualify under the same terms as some of these other identity aspects that we're currently debating.
00:22:27.000To the point of a sense of racial awareness, racial identity, assimilation,
00:22:35.000and how that could be handled differently. In my country, there was a wind rush, famously
00:22:39.000in the 40s and 50s, where former Commonwealth countries, or in fact current Commonwealth
00:22:44.000countries, were invited to live in the UK because it was like a labour crisis, at
00:22:48.000least that's the, you know, narrative. I've not looked into it too deeply, but there was a requirement for
00:22:52.000nurses, doctors, labour, teachers, etc. So people came from British colonial countries in
00:22:58.000Africa and elsewhere and lived in the UK.
00:23:02.000And it's anecdotally understood and to somewhat academically supported that early Windrush migrants integrated very well into the working class white cultures that they were living amidst.
00:23:15.000And like, for example, ska music came out of that, that there was a cohesion.
00:23:21.000There was a subsequent politicization, in this instance from what would have been called then the right, That kind of mobilised and polarised those communities and led to sort of like, you know, the race riots that happened 10, 20, 30 years later, along with I'm sure other contributory factors, the increasing migration, other things I'm sure that we could discuss.
00:23:42.000Then more sort of personally, I was thinking about my own feelings around racial identity growing up in a blue collar community and when I'm growing up like it's the beginning of gangster rap and that and my feelings about um racial difference you know and and forms of cultural identity that come out of black say black forms of identity it was really cool like I loved NWA and of course the character of uh Ali G a precursor to Borat to whom uh perhaps your films owe at least a um
00:24:17.000Technical debt in terms of the idea of this savant entering into sort of territories where they might create, you know, the sort of provocateur dynamic.
00:24:29.000I feel like that idea that there are cultural differences, there are racial differences, but they might align rather nicely if there aren't external agents used to motivate it.
00:24:43.000And I think those agents can come from the right or left.
00:24:46.000You can have Nationalist movements that galvanise disdain, I'm talking more about the 70s and 80s here rather than what's happening currently that seems perhaps more complex, that galvanise disdain or dislike or agitation against migrant communities and indeed you can have from inverted commas the left
00:25:03.000movements of provocation entering into the community.
00:25:06.000What I feel like it will be interesting is to, you must have a sense of who the audience for your film to
00:25:13.000be, because I know Daily Wire is excellent at understanding
00:25:20.000I wonder, indeed, given the spiritual aspect of the answer to the last question,
00:25:26.000what you consider might be a point of reconciliation and reunion that might come from
00:25:33.000the areas that your films are examining and highlighting?
00:25:39.000I think, and I was listening to what you said about the external agents that come in and create a lot of this interracial strife and all that, and I firmly believe that that is what's happening and and without that well we certainly we wouldn't live in a utopia that's not going to happen in this life anyway and you're always going to have a an element of tribalism with human beings that's that's natural for humans but i do think that at least in the west racially speaking things could be okay things could be basically fine
00:26:12.000If you didn't have these people that were invested in making sure that it's not fine I mean I think back even I can't speak to the UK but at least in the US in the 90s now the 90s we know we had, you know, we had some race riots we had OJ we had, you know, racial strife in the 90s by no means was it perfect but.
00:26:32.000At least I can talk about being a kid going to public school in a liberal area in the 90s.
00:26:39.000Very racially diverse, we would say now.
00:26:44.000We didn't use those terms, but there was a lot of it.
00:26:47.000But we didn't spend, and it was basically fine, we didn't spend a lot of time talking about the fact that we were different.
00:26:54.000We didn't spend a lot of time talking about racism anyway.
00:26:57.000Now, you acknowledge race, but we don't need to focus on and talk about racism incessantly.
00:27:02.000I think about, it's a famous clip, I believe it was Morgan Freeman, a pretty famous clip from a 60 Minutes interview he did maybe 25 years ago.
00:27:10.000Or he was asked about Black History Month, and he said that he doesn't like it, because, let's just talk about American history, and black history is American history, white history is American history.
00:27:21.000And then he was asked, well, what do we do about racism?
00:28:11.000So they're very blatantly and I think plainly invested in making sure that people either are racist and if they're not racist, at least perceive themselves to be racist so that they can keep the grift going.
00:28:26.000Did you see that moment when Tucker got, you know, when they were talking about replacement theory to Tucker in Australia and the woman said, you know, you say that migrant workers are costing white jobs and he said, I didn't say white jobs, it's black and white jobs.
00:28:45.000So like there are subtle Either unconscious or deliberate assumptions that are made that presume a more pejorative perspective on the subject of race.
00:28:57.000I feel that one of the driving ideas is that the professional liberal class hates working class people.
00:29:02.000I think that came to the forefront in Brexit in my country, the beginning of the MAGA movement in yours.
00:29:09.000Culturally, I'm a person that sort of, my background, you would be of the left, sort of, because of the axis that might exist between the trade union movement, where you'd think like that men that had working class jobs in sort of manufacturing industries, say, and although those jobs have largely disappeared from countries like yours and mine, And then what the culture would have regarded as maybe champagne socialism but the kind of socialism that comes out of civil rights of like great figures like Maloofah King and Malcolm X etc.
00:29:43.000But with my more recent analysis such as it is of those times I point out that those are generally religious figures as much as they are social or political figures and indeed owe their debt and legacy to religious figures e.g.
00:29:58.000I wonder Matt, earlier you mentioned that people will all feel a degree of guilt because of our fallen condition of sin.
00:30:12.000Do you wonder ever how, as a Christian, we tackle these subjects and how we would apply that commonly used idea of how Christ might or how Christ would address these ideas.
00:30:30.000When you were talking a minute ago, I note how explicitly the letters of Paul are open to all Christians.
00:30:37.000Paul being primarily entrusted with taking Christianity from being a Jewish sect To, you know, at least providing the liturgy, infrastructure and writing that afforded Christianity to become a global or universal phenomenon.
00:30:57.000I wonder, like, it's clear in Christianity that race is irrelevant, everything is irrelevant, Christ died for you, Christ don't care about any of that.
00:31:06.000I've asked people, you know, Christians specifically about What do you reckon Christ would think about homosexuality?
00:31:11.000What would Christ think about trans issues?
00:31:13.000And I've had some great answers including like, there ain't no separate compartments in hell.
00:31:24.000Non-judgment is a sort of an important facet.
00:31:27.000It's for all of us to individually find our relationship with Christ and to invite him into our life through personal relationship.
00:31:35.000I wonder how much your Christianity affects your perspective when it comes to filmmaking, and whether or not, like me, you find it hard not to get sucked into the polemicism that defines the political space that you work in as a journalist and as a presenter when it comes to having a Christian perspective also.
00:32:07.000Yeah, I think, well, so two things on that.
00:32:11.000In terms of being difficult as a kind of polemicist, normally a pundit, and then even doing films like this, where it's not as simple as just looking at the camera and giving my opinion, that can be a challenge.
00:32:21.000I mean, that's one of the, in making both of the films, People often ask me, well, how do you, when you're in these rooms making films like this with these kinds of people, how do you stop yourself from laughing?
00:32:31.000And for me, it's not really a problem of stopping myself from laughing.
00:32:34.000It's actually more stopping myself from screaming at them and telling them that they're wrong and that they're full of it.
00:32:41.000And then just turning to the camera and saying, here's the real lesson, folks.
00:32:45.000Because that's what I do every day, you know, on a podcast.
00:32:53.000I certainly hope there's a value in that, because it's what I do every day.
00:32:57.000But I think it can also be powerful to expose these ideas in ways where it's not...
00:33:04.000Where it's not me just explaining to the audience, here's what these people think, here's why they're wrong.
00:33:10.000And I think that entertainment, filmmaking, can be a great tool for exposing the fallaciousness of a lot of their ideas in, I think, a kind of a deeper way.
00:33:23.000In terms of the faith aspect of it, I think Well, as you kind of pointed out, as Christians, we have a really elegant and beautiful answer to all the racial strife, which is that we're all human beings, and we're all descended from Adam and Eve, and we are all part of that same fallen human condition.
00:33:45.000We all need Christ in exactly the same degree.
00:33:50.000Now, I think that, you know, you pointed out that There are some Christians who will say that, hey, all sin is the same.
00:33:57.000I think that all sin is sin, but there are degrees of sin, and there are some sin that is worse than others.
00:34:03.000There's some sin that separates you from the light of God more than other sin does.
00:34:07.000You know, for example, telling a white lie, a child saying, I didn't take a cookie from the cookie jar, is not as severe a sin as First-degree murder, but to use extreme examples, but even so we are all still sinners And if we're all committing sin that takes us farther and farther away from God the answer for all of us is exactly the same and it does not matter what your race is and And there's a real true unity in that it's like it's a real.
00:34:35.000It's not Because when you start talking about this I always feel there's always the risk of lapsing into cliche where you say hey We're all it's all one race.
00:34:43.000We're the human race and Race is just a social construct that doesn't matter.
00:34:55.000Just like I'm a man, it doesn't not matter that I'm a man.
00:35:00.000But from a spiritual perspective, Whether you, whatever your race is, whatever your sex is, we're all children of God.
00:35:10.000And whatever guilt we're feeling, the answer for all of us is the same.
00:35:13.000And I think that's quite a beautiful thought, and that really is the answer.
00:35:18.000And maybe it's why I feel, I'm not going to say impervious, but I've never felt even tempted to fall into this Our partners are absolutely vital.
00:35:30.000that so many white liberals seem to fall into in the West.
00:35:34.000I look at it and like I said, I can't even, it's hard for me to even relate to it.
00:35:38.000I don't understand how you could fall into this and maybe it's because I have a spiritual grounding
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00:36:49.000One time I was at Pesa when I was 16 with my friends who were Jews, obviously, and during the various incantations and ceremonies that accompanied the event, I had this idea that had I been in Germany in the 30s as a non-Jew, I would presumably have been a participant in the circumstances and social obligations that drove some, most Germans to either tolerate or
00:37:29.000Participate in the active persecution of Jews and I did cry a bit But I will say I was only 16 and I had taken LSD and was trying to hold myself together at a family dinner with my friend Matt Hirsch and his family while also dealing with the sort of incantations and stuff that was going on at the only PESA that I've ever attended so perhaps You know, if I was to think a lot about racial dynamics and the history of slavery, I could conjure a kind of... But what I would also probably feel is something that's founded to a degree on George Orwell's famous quote, the British, you know, when asked about the problems of the British working class, he said the British working class
00:38:21.000Taking that as a starting point, I think that first, most imperial powers conquer the serf class around them, and then subsequently they might go off and dominate other territories.
00:38:34.000I'm talking mostly, I suppose, about European history.
00:38:37.000So it's not like every single white person was a benefactor of slavery.
00:38:44.000Although white people would have participated in slavery and the various forms of racism that have followed it.
00:38:52.000And as has been pointed out in America, that it's not a very long time ago that those things happened.
00:38:59.000But the idea that there is individual culpability becomes complicated.
00:39:06.000In our country, for example, Matt, after the George Floyd murder and the subsequent BLM movement, took on ceremonial demonstrations, say, at sporting events, which continues, you know, but our footballers in my country take the knee still before football matches.
00:39:26.000But, say, at a final, like an FA Cup final or a European final a major final you
00:39:31.000may have the Event of young footballers taking the knee and one of my
00:39:36.000friends said yeah, but think of like young black footballers It's obviously going to be meaningful to them and to their
00:39:41.000white teammates is going to be Important to show solidarity and I can understand that but
00:39:46.000when they're doing it in front of the royal family then you have to acknowledge that
00:39:52.000Colonialism and imperialism has it is as its ultimate zenith the aristocratic and exploitative
00:39:58.000oligarchical class that has as its living symbol royalty
00:40:03.000And I felt at the beginning of the statue pulling down time, oh, how are you going to pursue this?
00:40:08.000Because in the end, you'll have to pull down everything.
00:40:12.000In the end, you won't be able to have a nation.
00:40:15.000Now, I'm not for, as a, you know, particularly now as a committed Christian, I'm not, um, I don't have a view on that.
00:40:24.000Whether or not there has to always be a United Kingdom, there has to always be an America.
00:40:29.000Perhaps as there was something that preceded the UK and preceded America, perhaps there will be something that follows it.
00:40:38.000Certainly if Christ returns and there is a rapture, there certainly will be.
00:40:41.000But maybe even socially it's possible to evolve beyond these states.
00:40:45.000I wonder if you see the Obviously I'm imagining you do.
00:40:49.000The complexity of choosing to pursue some of the narrative assumptions that emerge from exploitation and the presumption of white supremacy and not all of them and where it leaves the idea of a nation full stop if you start to pull those threads too hard.
00:41:10.000Well, once you start pulling it, then you might as well pull it all down.
00:41:12.000And some of us pointed that out even before George Floyd.
00:41:17.000In the U.S., a few years before that, there was kind of a mini movement that cropped up to start pulling down, particularly in the South, the monuments to Confederate generals or mentions of Confederate generals, Confederate flags and that sort of thing.
00:41:36.000And the reason that was given is that these were white racist slave owners, or at least people who supported slavery.
00:41:44.000And some of us pointed out back then, this was back in, I don't know, 2016, 17, And even Trump made this point at the time that, well, okay, but you do realize that our founding fathers were white and racist by our standards today, and they owned slaves.
00:42:01.000So if that's the reason for tearing down a monument, then I guess theirs is going to come down soon too.
00:42:07.000And at the time we were told, oh, that's ridiculous.
00:42:10.000And then what do you know, fast forward a few years and they're tearing down The Founding Fathers, too.
00:42:15.000But it goes beyond that, because the truth is, I mean, you brought up slavery.
00:42:19.000One of my many problems with this idea that I, as a white person, carry guilt for slavery, or that there should be reparations for it, you touched on one of the reasons, which is, like, that doesn't mean that I have individual culpability for things that I... mistakes that were made, or I won't say mistakes, that's...
00:42:37.000The evil that was committed by people who were not me generations ago, the fact that I have individual culpability for that, is absurd.
00:42:48.000But one of the reasons why it's absurd is that slavery in particular, if we're going back in time and we're assessing the terrible things that were done by our ancestors, Well, slavery is a great example of the kind of thing that, actually, if anyone carries guilt for that, we all carry guilt for it.
00:43:07.000If you can inherit guilt for slavery, we all have that inherited guilt, because slavery was a universal, global institution for literally thousands and thousands of years.
00:43:21.000I think it's a shame that the discussion about slavery has turned into this ridiculous, like, white versus black thing, because if we could be more intelligent about it, there's an actually interesting question here, which is, that I think about often.
00:43:33.000Which is, how could it be that for thousands of years, everyone in the world either practiced slavery or was okay with it, and it never occurred to anyone, even the greatest minds of history, it seemed to never even occur to them that there might be something just inherently wrong with owning a person?
00:43:52.000And I think that the history of the world shows us that, again, for thousands of years, that really didn't occur to anyone.
00:43:57.000Now, there were some people that were a little bit more progressive for their time, and so they said things like, well, treat your slaves well, or, you know, there should be rules for when you're allowed to take slaves and that sort of thing.
00:44:09.000There really wasn't anyone who said that, hey, look, all humans have inherent human rights and dignity because they're human beings, and you cannot own anyone ever under any circumstances.
00:44:19.000Nobody said that for thousands of years, anywhere in the world.
00:44:23.000And certainly nobody said it in Africa, which was a willing and eager participant in the slave trade, and held on to it.
00:44:32.000In Africa, they held on to the slave trade for longer than the white Western European powers did.
00:44:38.000And then in what is now the United States, in the Americas, in this entire hemisphere, Slavery was an institution for hundreds of years before any white man stepped foot on its shores.
00:44:51.000You had the Mesoamerican tribes, the Aztecs and the Incans and the Mayans, that were ransacking the tribes all around them, taking slaves both for labor and also to rip their hearts out of their chests as human sacrifices.
00:45:06.000And the same thing was happening in tribes to the north, less advanced tribes, but still the same thing of sending war parties in, killing almost everybody, taking slaves, taking children and women as sex slaves, taking men as slaves.
00:45:19.000So the point is, this is just everybody was doing it.
00:45:26.000But that does mean that it's absurd to point to one particular group who engaged in slavery and put all the guilt on them and then act as though everybody else in the world was more enlightened than that when they clearly weren't.
00:45:42.000And it also means, finally, and I'll stop babbling, but it means that really we can't, it's incoherent.
00:45:50.000To hold our ancestors to these modern standards and to condemn them.
00:45:54.000At a certain point, it's sort of incoherent to condemn them for owning slaves because apparently it just never occurred to anyone in the world for thousands of years.
00:46:04.000And so we can sit here now in the year 2024 and say, well, they were ignorant and stupid and foolish.
00:46:11.000You know, all of humanity was ignorant, stupid and foolish for thousands of years.
00:46:50.000So we don't know, I guess is the point, that if you or I, if we happen to be born in the year 1300 anywhere in the world, we would almost certainly either own slaves or think that owning slaves is okay, because that's what everybody around us thought.
00:47:05.000And I think it's just the height of arrogance to not admit that.
00:47:08.000Yes, it's a kind of giddy hubrism that assumes that you might be a person that realised, back then, the very apex of moral thought.
00:47:21.000Now, it's an absurd part of the narcissism that seems to, curiously and paradoxically, be spread across populations these days.
00:47:31.000One of the things I've noticed in a very general way, Matt, is it appears that there's a project of bewilderment that benefits centralised power to create a sort of a nihilism and uncertainty about ways of categorising, ways of behaving, what history is, what correct behaviour is.
00:47:51.000And the only certainty appears to be posited in the hands, oddly, of the state.
00:47:57.000When I first heard people on the right talk about communism, I thought, no, it's not communism, because it's so sort of corporatized.
00:48:04.000How can Jordan Peterson say, oh, well, this is Marxist, of what he observed in academia, when, from my perspective at least, what's happening in terms of global power is plainly built upon an alliance between global corporate interest state power. State power that's becoming increasingly
00:48:23.000globalized and transcendent of a national purview, whether that's French or British or
00:48:29.000American. It seems that there is a kind of a top-down ideology being planted
00:48:34.000on whole nations and their populations and the visible, one of the visible
00:48:39.000symptoms of that will be the homogenization of each nation. The appearance of
00:48:43.000every high street or main street in your language looking the same, having the same
00:48:48.000shops, having the same favorable tax arrangements, having the same sort of sense
00:48:53.000of dislocation everywhere in the world. And I have this curious sense that
00:49:00.000the advancing of the idea that somehow vulnerable groups are being served
00:49:05.000and protected is a veil by which the opposite is happening.
00:49:09.000Very, very powerful interests are accruing more power while claiming to be protecting the most vulnerable.
00:49:18.000And indeed, that's precisely the paradigm we saw play out in the pandemic.
00:49:22.000Stay in your home, follow these measures because we have to protect the vulnerable.
00:49:27.000And during that period of time, there was an astonishing transfer of not only wealth, but also of power and a kind of restriction of civil freedom that will likely never return to its previous level.
00:49:38.000And indeed, my assumption will be it awaits the next crisis when comparable measures will be asserted and they will likely never be fully relinquished.
00:49:48.000either. So I now do see that there's a tendency towards something that has similarities to
00:49:54.000communism even if it's not the same kind of economic communism espoused by early, you
00:50:00.000know, Marxists, Communists, whatever you want to call them.
00:50:02.000It's a kind of odd elitist oligarchal state that's already in your country and mine and does
00:50:10.000afford certain sets and groups incredible power and a professional class, you, carries the water for
00:50:18.000them and carries the propaganda for them saying we have to help this maligned or vulnerable
00:50:23.000group or this maligned or vulnerable In order that XYZ and it normally has the result of making the majority population regardless of race I would say because it's more of an economic class or economic taxonomy that I would refer to here feel bewildered and lost and uncertain and whether it's sort of gender ideology or racial dynamics it has the odd effect of offering instead of a all-powerful
00:50:51.000A deity, an all-loving trinity, at the centre of all power, prescribing all knowledge.
00:50:59.000This state, this centralised, globalist set of institutes.
00:51:15.000I think you're right to point to the kind of, well, I guess we call it class warfare, but it's not really warfare because it's a rather one-sided war being waged by the elites on all the classes below them.
00:51:28.000And I would think, I don't know that there's a solution to it or what it would be, but it does begin with kind of an awakening of people realizing what's actually happening.
00:51:38.000And the thing that I guess the black pill here for me is that you pointed out the pandemic, and that was a perfect example of how this dynamic plays out, where they locked us all in our homes.
00:51:52.000They took, for many people, their livelihood away.
00:51:55.000And even while there's so many examples of the people that are imposing these restrictions on us, they would go out and they'd have their parties and they'd still be out living their lives and doing quite well, while we had to stay home, muzzled in our masks and so on.
00:52:12.000And you would hope that that experience would be an awakening moment for the public, that they would see this and see what's actually happening.
00:52:21.000And I think for a while, to the extent, you know, it's...
00:52:25.000Even worse than that, I mean, think about the fact that everyone locked in the home, you can't leave.
00:52:31.000And then, of course, infamously, the BLM riots happened.
00:52:43.000Well, because these rioters were tearing down poor, lower-class neighborhoods and destroying the businesses, small businesses and destroying businesses where You know, lower class people worked.
00:52:57.000And then you had a riot at the Capitol, and this is where the elites work.
00:53:01.000And all of a sudden, now this is not OK.
00:53:34.000I think a lot of us imagined back when we were going through this in 2020 and 2021 that the next election would be a real reckoning for all of this and everybody involved in it, you know, they're going to pay the price politically.
00:53:50.000And I think that There's a lot of reasons for that.
00:53:53.000The number one reason is just that we live in this age of Being bombarded with information, you know, a billion bits of information every day just constantly beaming at us.
00:54:09.000And the effect is that we can't focus on anything for very long.
00:54:12.000No matter how significant the event is, it is destined to be forgotten 30 seconds after it's over.
00:54:20.000I mean, Donald Trump was shot in the head A presidential candidate was shot.
00:54:47.000It's had no political impact at all in the polls.
00:54:50.000Which is amazing in only terrible ways, frankly.
00:54:55.000And I think, again, it just shows that we can't stay focused on one thing for very long, and the elites that you're talking about, they take advantage of that.
00:55:02.000They're very happy about that, because it means that nothing matters, and they can always distract us.
00:55:09.000And it's always the shiny object that we're staring at.
00:55:12.000Given that a better measure for velocity might now be the rate with which we're hit with information, rather than any previously presumed metrics around calendar or clock time, Do you feel that the Kamala campaign and the anointing of Kamala at the point that it happened was a pre-planned event in order for there to be a kind of honeymoon towards November?
00:55:45.000Or do you feel that the Biden debate performance was a genuine shock?
00:55:51.000And how do you see this new perception of time, this billion bits bombardment perspective, Playing out up to November.
00:56:00.000Do you think that means it's impossible to predict?
00:56:02.000Do you have fears around the integrity of the election?
00:56:06.000And do you, mostly, do you think that these events are somehow orchestrated?
00:56:14.000I do have plenty of fears about the integrity of the election, but it also makes it very difficult to predict.
00:56:21.000I myself readily admit that I'm a terrible political prognosticator, so my predictions are always sure to not come to fruition.
00:56:31.000So I'll admit that I really have no idea what's going to happen in November.
00:56:33.000But as far as whether it was planned, there's a theory out there that The people really in charge of the Democrat Party, the people pulling the strings.
00:56:47.000They asked for this debate before the convention, and as we all know, doing the earliest presidential debate I think that we've ever had, they never do them before the convention.
00:56:57.000And so the kind of conspiracy theory is that the Democrats did this on purpose because they knew that Biden would fall apart on stage, which is what happened, and then they would have the ability to finally get rid of him, which is what they always wanted, and to install somebody else.
00:57:13.000Sometimes I think that we... I don't know if these people are smart enough to think that far ahead and to do something like that.
00:57:21.000Because although that would be very dishonest and devious, it would be pretty brilliant strategically.
00:57:27.000And I'm not sure if they're that smart.
00:57:29.000I guess maybe... I hope they're not that smart.
00:57:31.000So I kind of fall more on the side of...
00:57:36.000You know, they were going to ride with this guy, they were going to try to ride with him until the election, just wheel him through it, get him another four years, and then, you know, they knew that there's no way he would probably survive another four years.
00:57:48.000And that's fine with them, because then they would take over and they'd be pulled, you know, they were really in charge the whole time anyway.
00:57:56.000So, I'm not sure, but I do know that it has worked out, the timing has worked out tremendously well for Kamala, because Look, she's a total empty vessel.
00:58:08.000They don't trust her to speak off the script at all.
00:58:30.000But at least with Obama, number one, he actually was and is a talented orator.
00:58:35.000So I won't say a lot else good about him, but he is that at least.
00:58:39.000He's a talented speaker, and so you can see how somebody... I mean, all throughout history, there have been charismatic orators who have generated a lot of excitement and led political movements just on that alone, so that's not all that surprising.
00:58:53.000So the media had something to work with when they were kind of turning Obama into this messianic figure.
00:58:59.000Also, Obama didn't have much of a history before that.
00:59:43.000And they've taken her and they've turned her into this person that is supposedly filling up arenas.
00:59:50.000And the way that they're able to do that is because, look, the media, it turns out, they can do that with anyone.
00:59:55.000They can take anyone and turn them into a star.
00:59:59.000The trick, though, is that if they're doing that with someone who's a total empty vessel, they can make them into a star, but it won't last long.
01:00:09.000It'll burn hot and bright and quickly, and then it'll burn out.
01:00:13.000But they don't need for it to last long.
01:00:14.000They only need for it to last for three months.
01:00:21.000Perhaps the phenomena of talent shows that began in the 1990s was an indicator that new media had the power to create figures from naught and generate a kind of hysteria and sustain it, certainly temporarily.
01:00:38.000And it seems to some degree, at least in the Trump and, you know, sort of post-Trump or Trump era, however you see that.
01:00:46.000The Democrats have campaigned, particularly I suppose after the failure of Hillary, by having kind of ghost candidates keeping their candidate out of the way and allowing the sort of demonization or legitimate suspicion or disgust or disdain, however you want to call it, for Trump to do the carrying of that water and do that work for him.
01:01:08.000On your point on Obama, I think I believe, I saw a PBS documentary that was made before he was president and maybe even before his candidature as a president, you know, maybe while he was a senator.
01:01:19.000It was like some sort of 10-minute on X PBS clip and it was really interesting to sort of see an appraisal of Obama prior to the subsequent hagiographies and bifurcation and what he came across as is a really interesting and unusual person with a really unusual past and With his unusual ethnic history, growing up in Hawaii, spending a lot of time in Indonesia, then marrying Michelle and sort of perhaps understanding his identity through his educational an-identity as an African-American, a particular identity.
01:01:52.000And it was sort of encouraging him doing pro bono work as a lawyer.
01:01:57.000I thought, wow, this is an interesting character.
01:02:01.000And I wonder, perhaps Matt, if any of us have a certain use to a kind... that anyone can be used by a culture for as long as they're valuable.
01:02:10.000You know the commonly understood idea that Epstein's function in the culture was to have dirt on people that could be utilised whenever necessary, so that a person with a particular set of characteristics traits could be put in a position of political power or of
01:02:25.000influence and then should they ever become recalcitrant The button gets pushed and they are told hey comply or else,
01:02:32.000you know, and even if there's no need for that, you know and no
01:02:36.000No skeletons in the closet Most people are pretty happy to take the material and
01:02:40.000worldly rewards that come with those sort of positions of privilege
01:02:44.000Notably both Vivek Ramaswamy and Dave Rubin did say Biden won't see a 2024 campaign
01:02:50.000you know, I saw old video of in a Rubin saying that and Vivek will tell anyone who will listen won't he that you
01:02:58.000know that Biden weren't gonna run but I like you do sometimes
01:03:02.000Wonder whether or not that level of ingenuity is going on behind the scenes, but it's going to be interesting to see
01:03:08.000how a Figure like Kamala is managed. I look a lot of the
01:03:12.000aesthetics of propaganda the propaganda at the right You know, I was at the RNC and I saw that you were at the
01:03:17.000DNC and their propaganda You know like people coming out and talking about
01:03:22.000pro-life stories, bringing out a pop star or whatever and some pop stars not showing
01:03:27.000up and I'm wondering about what is substantive in the DNC now.
01:03:32.000I know they have announced some policies, I think it's mad that Kamala's talking about
01:03:36.000spending hundreds of millions on the wall now and that too shows you that it makes you
01:03:42.000What do you feel about the addition of both Bobby Kennedy and Tulsi to the Trump campaign?
01:03:49.000What kind of impact do you imagine that will have on sort of marginal swing voters?
01:03:54.000And what do you think that does to address and order the flavor Of what the Republican stroke MAGA Trump movement is about when quite popular and in the case of Tulsi Gabbard in particular a very sort of dignified traditional politician and in the case of Bobby a very radical and quite brilliant politician are added into the fold of this movement.
01:04:15.000What kind of impact do you see that having?
01:04:19.000I think it's obviously a positive development for Trump.
01:04:22.000The extent that there's any kind of real impact for him, I'm not sure.
01:04:25.000Now, if you'd asked me this question, if this had happened a month and a half ago and you'd asked me, I would say, well, this is going to have a massive impact, particularly RFK Jr., because he does have a very devoted and large following, not large enough to actually win the presidency himself, obviously, but large enough, you would think, in a really tight election, To put Trump over the top.
01:04:46.000And I would have said that a month and a half ago.
01:05:03.000So I would say, yeah, this could be even decisive.
01:05:06.000Now, the only thing that gives me pause is what I said a few minutes ago, that Also, if you had asked me a month and a half ago, would it have a major impact on the election if the presidential candidate gets shot in the head and survives it?
01:05:19.000I would have also said, yes, definitely.
01:05:22.000And that hasn't proved to be the case.
01:05:24.000So, you know, I guess the question is always, when voting really starts, well, voting unfortunately starts like a month ahead of time, but let's just say on election day, will anything that happened Before the 48 hours, before that, does anything older than 48 hours matter at all when people are actually voting?
01:05:53.000That's kind of the fundamental question.
01:05:55.000And if the answer is no, nothing matters if it's more than 48 hours old.
01:06:01.000If that's the answer, then it's just You know, political campaigns, you can't even campaign anymore.
01:06:07.000Political campaigns basically don't exist because nothing matters if it's not front of mind when people go to vote.
01:06:14.000And so I guess, yeah, that's a long way of saying I don't know.
01:06:19.000But by all rights, it should have a decisive impact.
01:06:24.000Do you think that something more epistemologically profound is happening than, Matt, if we can't rely on a cycle longer than 48 hours?
01:06:32.000Two things I think of are the famous Warholian edict about 15 minutes and then the writer
01:06:38.000Martin Goury in his book The Revolt of the Public that I refer to a lot that talks about
01:06:42.000that tsunami of information that began in 2001.
01:06:47.000Every year since 2001 the amount of available information has doubled and therefore we're
01:06:52.000kind of deluged in continual perpetual information without absorbing any knowledge.
01:06:58.000And if there is no ability to create sort of narratives with any mythic tenacity or
01:07:04.000any meaningful influence, don't that suggest we are existing in a kind of nihilistic fugue
01:07:11.000where almost any idea might take hold of us.
01:07:14.000And in that kind of environment, what sort of, you know, what sort of things matter?
01:07:18.000And does there need to be a more ardent return to, you know, the kind of what we've touched upon, but not explored in any great depth throughout this interview, Christianity, and the importance of recognizing that actually we've just created little things here.
01:07:34.000We're here to serve and follow some very particular instructions.
01:07:38.000And do you sense that that might return to the forefront?
01:07:46.000Yeah, I think, well, nihilistic fugue is a great way of putting it.
01:08:31.000But, That storytelling requires people to follow it and get invested, kind of, in the narrative and to care about it for more than 48 hours.
01:08:39.000And if they don't, then it just becomes hard to do that anymore.
01:08:44.000I mean, Christianity, it's easy for me because that's, in my opinion, the answer to all of our cultural problems, ultimately.
01:08:50.000But it's, I think, obviously the answer here because you have to have a sense of... Christianity gives you a sense of You know, there's a sense of the eternal, that actually things do matter for a lot longer than 48 hours.
01:09:08.000In fact, what we're experiencing now and what we're living through, that all of this will matter in some way, even beyond the extent of our own physical lifetimes.
01:09:20.000And it'll matter, you know, into eternity.
01:09:23.000And I think if you take away that sense of the eternal and replace it only with the sense of, only with the idea that we are temporal beings, we came out of nothingness, into nothingness we will return.
01:09:36.000And then on top of that, there's this billions of bits of information every second beaming at us.
01:09:42.000You combine those two things and it's just, there's no hope.
01:09:44.000There's no way for you to live a life where anything matters at all.
01:09:50.000And the only antidote to that is, again, a sense of the eternal and also, to the extent that's possible, to quiet some of that noise in your own life.
01:10:03.000You know, give yourself a sense of quiet and solitude in your life to focus on these things.
01:11:03.000It seems like Zuckerberg... I don't follow him that closely, but based on what I've seen, it seems like he got into MMA and mixed martial arts, and ever since then, he seems to be becoming more right-wing by the day.
01:11:19.000Still wouldn't call him right-wing, but he's traveling closer and closer in that direction.
01:11:26.000If there's a connection there between those two things, there probably is.
01:11:30.000And I would like to think that he's not alone in that, that maybe there'll be a general shift in big tech towards free speech and less censorship, but I don't think that's the case.
01:11:45.000But hey, if we get to a point where we know that Elon Musk is a proponent of free speech, And if Zuckerberg is at least traveling ever so gradually in that direction, even though we still won't have free speech on many of these other platforms, I think that's still a great development for us.
01:12:06.000Well, Matt, thanks very much for this conversation.
01:12:09.000It's available first on Locals for our paid subscribers, and then we're going to stream it on Rumble and to a degree on YouTube in a couple of weeks, by which time you and I might as well have been discussing John Steinbeck and clogs and the music of Billie Holiday.
01:12:25.000Because with the rapid news cycle spinning like a comet past our planet, probably our clothes will make us look like just two Amish men discussing Irrelevant events of yesteryear.
01:12:55.000This conversation you will love and enjoy.
01:12:58.000If you find it interesting to see me talking to someone like Matt Walsh on the subject of race, you're going to love my conversation with Magid Nawaz.
01:13:06.000We talk about how Islam, migration, nationalism all fit together and how all of us are being exploited by globalism and turned against one another in ways that are of course extremely advantageous to the systems of power that benefit from ongoing conflict among ordinary people of all cultures and races.
01:13:25.000Surely we must find a way to unify and oppose them.
01:13:30.000You can also see my Russell Brand stand-up breakdown on Locals right now.
01:13:35.000I'm talking about Billy Connolly, one of my favourite comedians.
01:13:39.000Thank you so much for joining us today.
01:13:40.000See you next week, not for more of the same, but for more of the different.