Matt Taibbi and Michael Schellenberger join me in London to discuss the censorship industrial complex, and the need for journalists to speak freely and openly about it. We talk about how a new, unelected set of institutions are coordinating an attempt to shut down free speech worldwide, and why it's so important that journalists are the only ones who have the power to speak truth to power, and how they can speak truth in order to ensure that we can speak freely, openly, and without fear. This is a must-listen event, and I know you'll agree that it's one of the most important events I've been a part of in a long time, and one that I'm very proud to be a facilitator of. RUMBLE is the home of free speech, and we can't speak freely on a platform which I love, because it's still governed, in part, by the WHO, and that has commercial and corporate interests that literally prevent free speech. If you're watching this on Rumble, click the red button and join us on locals, and there's no way you think we're going to end up in the censorship Industrial Complex, right? And there's a good chance you'll end up with a warm round of applause for those two journalists who are working hard to make sure that we don't end up there! Thank you for joining me for this Friday's Friday show, you're amazing! - I know, increasingly, that's going to be vital, and this is going to become vital - and I hope you join us in the next Friday for our next Friday show on Rumble! Timestamps: - The Censorship Industrial Complex . The censorship Industrial complex What is it is? What are we fighting for? Why do we need journalists to talk about it? How can we speak freely about it ? Why does it matter? And how can we stop it? What is its impact on our world? and why is it so important to have a free speech? Is it a humanity crisis? Can we really be free? ? What does it really be a matter of a human right, anyway? Thanks for joining us in London, and what are we can do about it?? I can t wait to do better than that? - Tom and I love you, my dear friend. - Ed?
00:00:01.000Thanks for joining me for an extra special Friday show.
00:00:05.000You know that we participated in the Censorship Industrial Complex event with Matt Taibbi and Michael Schellenberger.
00:00:12.000It was a fantastic conversation with incredible participants, surprise guests, and more importantly than any of that, vital information around how a new, unelected series of institutions Are coordinating an attempt to shut down free speech worldwide.
00:00:29.000If you're watching us on YouTube, we're only going to be available for the first 15 minutes, then we'll be exclusively on Rumble.
00:01:37.000We're meeting for the first time because we believe that free speech isn't just an enabling condition for civilization, for democracy, that it's a fundamental human right.
00:01:47.000And this is, I think, more than a speech crisis.
00:01:50.000It's a humanity crisis, and I just hope we're not too late to fix it.
00:01:55.000What is the nature of these organizations?
00:01:58.000How have they been granted a power that to any rational, ordinary person would require consensus and democracy to achieve it?
00:02:06.000How have those safeguards been so expertly bypassed?
00:02:58.000I mean, this is the censorship issue we're discussing.
00:03:01.000You can't even do a vaguely flattering intro to two fine journalists without the censorship industrial complex.
00:03:11.000Stepping in, in this hallowed territory established by the Methodists, who had to revivify Christianity after that orthodoxy became draconian and oppressive, to re-evoke once more the divine, to ensure that we can speak freely and openly, for it's our only tool against corruption and hypocrisy.
00:03:30.000When Michael invited me to participate in this as a facilitator, because watch a minute, it's going to blow your mind how quiet I'm going to be in a second, this is it.
00:03:38.000I'm going to say this, then I'm going to self-censor like you wouldn't believe.
00:03:47.000Michael Schellenberg and Matt Taibbi are precisely the journalistic voices that we require because, like Wesley's Methodist movement, our movement already has martyrs.
00:03:57.000I believe we have supporters of Julian Assange in the room right now.
00:04:09.000We already have people that are willing to sacrifice themselves for a higher good in exile.
00:04:16.000Edward Snowden is a supporter of course of this event and recognises the significance of the work that Michael and Matt in particular are doing.
00:04:23.000This is a conversation that we are facilitating for two men that I believe in, who I believe are working very hard to do a necessary job.
00:04:31.000Some of the topics that we're covering are What is the nature of this new centralising authoritarian system?
00:04:37.000How long can we allow convenience, safety and security to enable centralised authoritarian systems to shut down communication and free speech?
00:04:47.000What is the misanthropy that lies at the heart of a discourse that believes our speech needs to be controlled?
00:04:54.000Where is the moral authority that is entitled to make those decisions on our behalf?
00:05:00.000Thankfully, there are people in this room that can answer those questions tonight.
00:05:04.000Please, let's have a warm round of applause for Michael Schellenberger and Matt Taibbi!
00:05:43.000And yet, we know that Facebook censored what its own executives called often true stories of COVID vaccine side effects.
00:05:56.000We know that Facebook censored the New York Post in February 2020, when it published an opinion piece that said, maybe COVID came from a laboratory.
00:06:11.000And we know that Twitter and Facebook censored an entirely 100% true, accurate story about Hunter Biden's laptop just two weeks before the U.S.
00:06:25.000Now, people say it's not really censorship, because censorship is when the government censors you.
00:06:33.000And the government was just flagging misinformation.
00:06:39.000They were just being helpful, helping Twitter executives and Facebook to correct the misinformation out there.
00:06:49.000And yet Matt Taibbi and his colleagues at Racket have identified 50 large, powerful organizations around the world that take government funding that are staffed by former government employees that work hand-in-hand with the US government, the UK government.
00:07:11.000The Brazilian government, the Canadian government, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, around the world we see censorship.
00:07:21.000And censorship at the behest of governments is a violation of the First Amendment and a violation of your laws, too, in the great nation of Britain.
00:07:35.000What is the censorship industrial complex?
00:07:37.000How did we allow this monstrosity to take hold in our societies?
00:07:43.000It's every time we think we get to the bottom of this story, the floor drops out from under us.
00:07:49.000Most recently, just a few weeks ago, we started getting emails from people around the world.
00:07:54.000From Australia, from New Zealand, from Canada, the United States, saying, did you know that there's a piece of legislation going through our Parliament, our Congress?
00:08:07.000It's not being covered by the news media.
00:08:11.000In the UK, there's legislation that would allow the government to read your private direct messages on WhatsApp, Signal, Telegraph.
00:08:21.000In Brazil, a single judge on the Supreme Court is demanding the right for the government to read and censor private text messages.
00:08:32.000In Canada, they're seeking legislation that would promote official government media sources over independent news media sources on social media platforms.
00:08:44.000In the United States, they've been trying to sneak through legislation that would criminalize the use of VPNs, or virtual private networks, to gain access to forbidden websites.
00:08:58.000In Ireland, this is the most shocking thing of all.
00:09:02.000They're trying to get the right to go into your homes, into the homes of people in Ireland, including the staffs of social media companies, search their phones, search their computers without authorization, and presume people guilty until proven innocent of spreading hateful material.
00:10:41.000You can't choose your elected representatives if you cannot freely debate who they are, what they stand for.
00:10:48.000People make the case that you need freedom of speech in order to have free markets work.
00:10:54.000You can't know what to buy or sell if you aren't allowed to discuss those products freely and openly.
00:10:59.000We have very few restrictions on our freedom of speech.
00:11:03.000You can't lie to people to steal from them through fraud, and you can't incite violence against people in the immediate term.
00:11:11.000But beyond that, our rights are very strong.
00:11:14.000They're the strongest in the United States of anywhere in the world, but they're very strong in Britain, and they should be stronger.
00:11:21.000We are here to launch a campaign, a new free speech alliance.
00:11:25.000We've brought people from around the world.
00:11:30.000I just met many of them, and these are people who I only see online.
00:11:34.000These are people fighting for their freedom in Brazil, in New Zealand, Australia, Canada.
00:11:40.000We're meeting for the first time because we believe that free speech isn't just an enabling condition for civilization, for democracy, that it's a fundamental human right.
00:11:53.000It's tantamount to our ability to breathe and to eat and to love who we want to love.
00:11:59.000And so I say to you tonight, this is the moment where we start to fight back against the censorship industrial complex.
00:12:06.000We intend to defund it, dismantle it, and demand a new standard for freedom of speech worldwide as strong as the one that we enjoy in the United States of America.
00:13:16.000When I was invited in to work on the Twitter files, meeting Matt Taibbi was one of the most special moments in that adventure.
00:13:26.000And when we testified in front of Congress, at that moment that we were testifying, the Internal Revenue Service, which is our tax police, visited Matt Taibbi's home and attached a note to his door, which is completely, completely against the standard practice of the Internal Revenue Service.
00:13:47.000This is a person who has sacrificed significantly and he's seen what life is like for journalists in totalitarian societies.
00:13:54.000He knows and has been friends with people that have died for the cause.
00:13:58.000I have few greater pleasures than the opportunity tonight to introduce you to the great Matt Taibbi.
00:15:35.000I think it's pretty eloquent in places.
00:15:38.000I'm not sure it entirely holds together.
00:15:42.000But once we get here, Michael tells me, no, I'm just going to wing it.
00:15:48.000I'm going to go up there and talk extemporaneously.
00:15:50.000So out of spite, I'm not going to read that entire speech that I had written, but I'll read excerpts of it because there are a couple of important points that I do think we want to make before we get to the larger discussion with Russell, which I know you're all anxious to get to.
00:16:10.000I originally started by talking, saying something very pretentious about George Orwell.
00:16:20.000And then from there it led into sort of an introduction to what the Twitter file story was, and it was full of sort of unforgettable asides about Elon Musk and all these other things.
00:16:34.000And then there was a quote, and basically the idea here is that I went into the Twitter file story, probably like Michael, Bringing my old school, legalistic, kind of Enlightenment era notions of free speech with me.
00:16:52.000And I was hoping to answer maybe one or two narrow questions about Twitter.
00:16:58.000You know, for instance, did the FBI maybe once or twice intervene to, you know, get in the middle of a speech question?
00:17:06.000Quickly, we all realized that it was something sort of bigger, scarier, and weirder than that.
00:17:15.000The quote is, a sweeping system of digital surveillance combined with thousands or even millions of subtle rewards and punishments designed to condition people to censor themselves.
00:17:26.000So we're going to get into The concrete examples of how they did use government and government did work with these companies to actually censor people, but the larger, scarier issue is the construction, I think, of this gigantic Internet age system that is designed to get people to preempt dangerous thoughts by getting people to avoid having them in the first place.
00:17:55.000And then there was another pretentious thing about George Orwell.
00:18:00.000And the idea here was that one of the things that Orwell focused on in 1984 was this notion of binaries.
00:18:10.000That in the world that he described in 1984, there were no shades of grey.
00:18:16.000All ambiguities and shades of meaning had been purged.
00:18:20.000And it wasn't necessary to have words for everything.
00:18:23.000You didn't need to have words for warm and cold.
00:18:25.000You could just have warm and unwarm, for instance, right?
00:18:29.000And this is what we saw a lot of in the Twitter files.
00:18:32.000We saw a lot of taking very complex issues where there are lots and lots of shades of meaning and finding ways to whittle it down to basically two things.
00:18:43.000All right, and a great example of this was the virality project that was led by Stanford University.
00:18:51.000This was basically a catch-all program where Stanford took in information from all the biggest internet platforms, Facebook, Google, Twitter, some others, and they aggregated all the things that they were hearing about COVID and their experiences about what content moderation decisions that they made, and they made recommendations to each of the platforms about how they should deal with these things.
00:19:21.000And the really fascinating thing about this, well first let's start with the headline sort of scary moment in these emails.
00:19:33.000There was one email in which Stanford suggested to Twitter that you should consider, as standard misinformation on your platform, Stories of true vaccine side effects or true posts which could fuel hesitancy as well as worrisome jokes or posts about things like natural immunity or vaccinated individuals contracting COVID-19 anyway.
00:20:02.000And basically what they were doing here is they were trying to get into the minds of millions of people Through algorithms.
00:20:11.000If a person was telling a true story about somebody who got the vaccine and got myocarditis, they didn't have to say that they got it because of the vaccine.
00:20:22.000Even if they just told the story, even if in the next post they said, I'm all for the vaccine, the way that the Virality Project interpreted that original post was that this could promote hesitancy.
00:20:36.000Therefore, even if it's true, it's untrue, right?
00:20:39.000So you have, in reality, you have shades of meaning there.
00:20:43.000There's a true story that, you know, suggests that maybe you should be cautious about the virus.
00:20:49.000The person might be pro-vaccine, but they see it as anti-vax material.
00:20:57.000And this is Constantly throughout, they just took things that were really somewhere in the middle, and they moved them in one direction or another.
00:21:07.000Another amazing moment was when there was a company called Grafica, which described the dangers of undermining what they called authoritative health sources, like Anthony Fauci.
00:21:22.000They were very against even the use of puns like FAUXI, F-A-U-X-I.
00:21:29.000And their quote was, this continual process of seeding doubt and uncertainty and inauthoritative voices leads to a society that finds it too challenging to identify what's true or false.
00:21:43.000Basically what they're saying is questioning authority.
00:21:46.000Who here is old enough to remember the 70s and the VW bugs that had the questioning authority stickers?
00:21:55.000Questioning authority, which was of liberal value then, is now disinformation.
00:22:01.000So if you apply these techniques 50, 100 million times, a billion times, a billion billion times, eventually what happens is that people see that they are either going to be defined as approved, having approved thoughts, or unapproved thoughts.
00:22:19.000There's no middle that they can occupy.
00:22:22.000They will just naturally self-sort and self-homogenize.
00:22:26.000And we're doing this all throughout society with politics, entertainment, and everything.
00:22:31.000That's how you can get somebody like Russell, who is clearly not a right-winger, but they define him as a right-winger anyway because there are only two categories of people in the current media environment.
00:22:45.000There are people who Believe in everything true and decent and democracy and puppies and all that, and then there's right-wingers who are wrong about everything, right, basically.
00:22:54.000And so that's what they've been doing.
00:22:56.000They've been creating binaries over and above the direct censorship that we saw.
00:23:02.000There's this relentless effort to sort people into categories.
00:23:07.000And the other thing that I think is really important to point out, and is another Orwell concept, is double think.
00:23:18.000And this is the idea, how did Orwell define this?
00:23:23.000Basically, it's the idea of holding two ideas at the same time.
00:23:28.000He defined it as the act of holding simultaneously two opposite, individually exclusive ideas or opinions, and believing in both simultaneously and absolutely.
00:23:43.000With news stories, things that were true yesterday turn out to be completely the opposite tomorrow, and people are totally fine with that.
00:23:50.000We just completely skip the fixing process.
00:23:54.000There's no stopping to say, oh, sorry, we got that wrong.
00:23:58.000We just move to freaking out about the next thing seamlessly.
00:24:02.000So just to take an example, It wasn't that long ago that we were told in no uncertain terms that the only suspect in the Nord Stream pipeline bombing was Russia itself.
00:24:15.000And just a couple of weeks ago, we were told by the same U.S.
00:24:18.000government that they were actually aware since last June that this was planned by Ukrainians with the assent of the highest officials in the Ukrainian military.
00:24:30.000I don't know what the true story is, but those two stories are completely different.
00:24:34.000And they don't stop and say, oh, well, we're sorry.
00:24:44.000And there's no way for people to live normally with these contradictions and stay sane.
00:24:50.000The only thing they can do is live continuously in the moment.
00:24:55.000Because that way you don't have to think about the past, you don't have to think about the future.
00:25:00.000You are sort of charged affirmatively to forget everything that you were told before, because it might turn out to contradict something they want to tell you tomorrow.
00:25:09.000So we live in the present, continually, and in the present there are only two choices.
00:25:14.000So we are living in this very, very narrow intellectual world,
00:25:18.000and this is over and above the problem of authority that would come in later.
00:25:23.000If you somehow manage to get past all these obstacles and actually be an independent free thinker,
00:25:28.000like I think most of the people in this room are, then they're going to have censorship and other obstacles
00:26:00.000I think in the 20 minutes that you've both been speaking, it's already become plain that we are dealing with an issue
00:26:18.000of considerable, perhaps even unprecedented, scale.
00:26:22.000And thanks mostly to some of the territory that Matt outlined, there is an entirely subjective experience also that will individually affect all of us in ways that seem to be more rooted in behaviouralism than politics, even in the most dystopian technocratic version of that, that attention itself, the experience of being you, is being curated and directed in ways that could only have been theoretical at the time of B.F.
00:26:59.000To return to the broader framing of our conversation, Michael, seeing as how you seem to be in charge, making poor Matt write a whole essay, and then publicly redact his affiliation with George Orwell, plainly a device used to curry favour with the British, Can you tell us how something as vast as the censorship industrial complex can possibly exist and come into being when it necessarily requires the participation of numerous agencies that one would assume would not be explicitly connected?
00:27:41.000I know Matt has done work in revealing 50 NGOs that participate in this censorship industrial complex, which I believe is a phrase that you have coined.
00:27:50.000Can you tell us how both state And private authorities, be they media or governmental, are participating in the creation of and execution of this new idiom that you have coined.
00:28:07.000Sure, I mean, I think we have these various moments on the Twitter files where you would just get really creeped out, like you would discover something and you would just get chills up your spine.
00:28:17.000And for me, it was when we discovered that the Aspen Institute had organized a workshop, they called it Tabletop Exercise, that had New York Times, Washington Post, CNN, Facebook, Twitter, you know, 12 to 20 people there.
00:28:34.000All talking in the summer of 2020 about how to debunk a story about Hunter Biden and Burisma.
00:28:41.000This is three months before the Hunter Biden laptop had come out.
00:28:45.000And it was just like, what is going on here?
00:28:47.000We sometimes ask, you know, is this a conspiracy or is it just a culture?
00:28:53.000Because there is a way in which, you know, that looked like a, like, conspiracy.
00:28:58.000That looked like a secret, coordinated effort that was obviously not public to pre-bunk a story that would come out several months later.
00:29:09.000On the other hand, it's also a culture.
00:29:11.000You know, these are people that are in Washington D.C.
00:29:21.000When they come to London, they hang out with the same particular, you know, group of people.
00:29:26.000But I think we're constantly asking ourselves, to what extent is this, you know, an inorganic phenomenon of a censorship industrial complex?
00:29:33.000And to what extent is it an organic part of cancel culture?
00:29:38.000I mean, I thought, Russell, what you said is really to the point, which is that there's, and also to Matt's comments about Orwell, is that there's a psychological, there's something that's unhealthy psychologically about this.
00:29:51.000And we've all become obsessed, my colleagues and I, with this totally obscure book by a Polish psychologist who lived under both the Nazis and then also under communists.
00:30:02.000And the book is called Political Ponerology, which is this crazy word I think he invented, which is the study of evil or the study of totalitarianism.
00:30:11.000And what he says is he says people that are in totalitarian societies, the people in charge, he says the way that you get to totalitarian societies is that psychopathological people Or what psychologists call cluster B personality disorder type people.
00:30:30.000These are antisocial personality disorder, which is the new name for psychopaths.
00:30:38.000Narcissist, borderline personality, and histrionic disorder.
00:30:43.000These are the folks who, when you're around them in your life, you always feel a little bit like you're walking on eggshells, because anything you say might set them off or might offend them.
00:30:53.000And I'm also struck by that Orwell, where Orwell is saying, in a totalitarian society, it's either black or white.
00:31:02.000And that's actually one of the characteristics of cluster B personality disorder people, is that I mean, these are people that are marked by grandiosity, self-centeredness, and then this concept that we just learned, which is called splitting.
00:31:18.000So these are people for whom you're either with me or you're against me.
00:31:21.000And it's just, that's the way their world is.
00:31:24.000And so, and when we start to, you know, without naming names, you start to learn some of the characters in the censorship industrial complex, and you look at, you sort of watch them, and you realize you're dealing with people that there's something Pathological about the way that they're, you know, the way they look at the world, the way in which it's like you're either with the program or you're dead to me, you know, and there's no sense of play and of, like, humor is impossible in that situation.
00:31:54.000There's a reason why you feel scared to make a joke around those kinds of people.
00:32:00.000And so it's dark and I think there's like, I think it's, you know, it's, it's, I mean, these two gentlemen are so lovely to work with, and there's something so... I went to Russell's office, or his studio, not far from here, and so well-treated.
00:32:16.000Like, all of his people are really fun and sweet and healthy, and there was no, like, Weirdness to it and everybody's enthusiastic about it.
00:32:25.000That's a really different vibe than when you go to some of these more pathological institutions.
00:32:30.000And so that's why I felt like, you know, getting us together and being with each other in person and being like, wow, there's some other people that we can have fun with and play with was an important part of our fight against totalitarianism.
00:32:43.000Of course, any architecture of this nature, difficult though it is to envisage and track, must have its origins in the human psyche.
00:32:54.000Therefore, I suppose it's natural that it would have traits recognizable at the level of the individual.
00:33:03.000I'm interested, Matt, to learn a little more about these 50 NGOs, and in particular, I'm interested in the way that they are frequently framed as philanthropic, and indeed, the entire Telos of the censorship argument is predicated on the idea of there being a moral authority with the integrity to execute that kind of censorship in addition to the misanthropy that I mentioned before that would require it.
00:33:36.000What is the nature of these organizations?
00:33:39.000How have they been granted a power that to any rational, ordinary person would require consensus and democracy to achieve it?
00:33:47.000How have those safeguards been so expertly bypassed?
00:34:27.000Before that, I think it's similar to what the Occupy Wall Street movement did when they came up with the idea of the 1% and the 99%.
00:34:37.000Just the nomenclature, I think, is really, really important.
00:34:40.000And he came up with that name And the reason it struck a chord with me, and I'll just go through the chronology quickly of what happened.
00:34:50.000In February, early February, I was looking through the Twitter files and we started to run into emails about an organization called the Global Engagement Center.
00:35:00.000How many people here have heard of the Global Engagement Center?
00:35:07.000So the Global Engagement Center was created in the last year of Barack Obama's presidency.
00:35:15.000Technically, it's what they call housed in the State Department.
00:35:18.000It's actually a multi-agency task force whose official remit is combating foreign disinformation.
00:35:27.000And we found an Inspector General's report that said basically that the Global Engagement Center in its first year, I guess it was FY 2017, had funded roughly $100 million worth of projects, and it listed 36 different organizations, or 39, and of course 36 of them were redacted, and I got the idea that it might be a good thing to try to figure out what those organizations were.
00:35:58.000We brought in some more people to start looking.
00:36:00.000And the instant we started trying to figure out how many of these organizations were, the project Completely spiraled out of control.
00:36:16.000You know, we've begun keeping sort of an Excel-type spreadsheet with all these organizations.
00:36:25.000And we think even that is only scratching the surface of how many of these quote-unquote anti-disinformation organizations are that are out there.
00:36:34.000A lot of them are receiving public money.
00:36:41.000Well, in the case of the Global Engagement Center, the real origin of this is, as was described to me by somebody who worked there from the very beginning, This started with the counter-proliferation movement in the U.S.
00:37:00.000Essentially, they were having trouble countering the messaging of ISIS, which they were finding difficulty understanding.
00:37:10.000ISIS was somehow reaching basically white suburban kids in Britain and in America.
00:37:15.000And of course, when something happens to white suburban kids anywhere, then it becomes a crisis internationally.
00:37:22.000They started pouring money into it, but that was the original remit of the Global Engagement Center, and so they went from counterterrorism to basically what they do now is counterpopulism.
00:37:35.000It's the same people, they're using the same technologies, and they're using the same techniques, To try to identify people that they consider problematic and try to find ways to diffuse that messaging by either using counter-messaging or deamplifying the messaging or removing it from platforms or whatever it is.
00:37:57.000To them it's the same thing and that's what's so frightening.
00:37:59.000I think people have to understand is that this all starts in a wing of the government that was looking at what they considered a terrorist threat that you could use basically any technique against and it would be legitimate up to and including droning them.
00:38:18.000And they turned that entire mechanism inward, and that's really what the censorship industrial complex is.
00:38:24.000It's just taking the techniques that we were using to try to reduce the impact of sort of foreign terrorist communication and turning it inward on domestic unrest.
00:38:40.000People complaining about things, people complaining about the electoral process, people not getting vaccinated when they're told, whatever it is, there's always some emergency.
00:38:49.000And they've learned that they can continually apply that over and over again.
00:38:56.000I don't know about you, Russell, but I think it's very scary.
00:39:00.000Yes, the idea of perpetual and never-ending crisis being a precondition for authoritarianism is by its nature terrifying, as is the shift that a mechanic designed in order to deal with an apparently external threat being inverted to deal with an internal threat, particularly using some of the Psychological critiques that have been touched upon, that indicates a kind of implosion that's difficult not to equate with pre-apocalyptic thinking.
00:39:32.000Furthermore, to see the figures, and I'm referring directly to both of you of course, that would once have been cherished by identifiable legacy media outlets, even if they're glib somewhat, cultural artifacts like Rolling Stone or legacy media outlets like the New York Times that it's unthinkable that Matt Taibbi or Michael Schellenberg could reliably and consistently write for those kind of outlets.
00:39:59.000This too is indication that things are changing and they're just two examples of course Chris Hedges has had a comparable trajectory and most obviously perhaps Glenn Greenwald who's gone from breaking of the seismic stories around WikiLeaks and Snowden and Chelsea Manning to being a literal exile and pariah.
00:40:17.000These are All, I would say, significantly terrifying alterations and changes.
00:40:24.000Might I ask, if there is an underlying ideology here, because sometimes to hear the way that Matt has described it, then it just feels like a kind of utilisation of a creation, just because it's there, it has to be used.
00:40:37.000But I wonder, Michael, if the imperatives that undergird this new fast-moving, observably fast-moving trajectory towards authoritarianism, censorship and centralisation is primarily motivated by dominion, power, money, or is there something ideological and political taking place, or is it both, and if so, how do they intersect, please?
00:41:06.000Yeah, I mean, This thing where I think that you guys have both just tapped into this central issue, which is that there is an authoritarian mentality among the leaders of the censorship industrial complex.
00:41:22.000I always think of this, uh, do you guys know the Bourne movie?
00:41:25.000Not the one with Matt Damon, but the other guy?
00:41:31.000Okay, everybody remembers that scene with Jeremy Renner, right?
00:41:34.000Do you remember the scene where, like, they go into her- I'm gonna spoil the movie for you guys if you haven't seen it.
00:41:39.000But there's, like, I guess it's, like, CIA or FBI, and they go into the house, and they're, like, trying to be, like, empathic with her, because she's been through this trauma.
00:41:48.000And then they sit her down and then they just look at each other like now and then like try to kill her and that's kind of the scene that has kept coming up in my mind as I like as I'm like reading these documents and listen and like reading the things that people are saying it's like I feel like there's a lot of Like, they're running an operation.
00:42:09.000You know, you feel like you look at these people... I wrote a piece about one person who's a former CIA fellow.
00:42:15.000I'm very sensitive about not wanting to personalize this, so I'm even hesitant to use this person's name, but I did write a whole piece about her.
00:42:23.000And, you know, it was like her story was she was just this hobbyist, you know, and I was just concerned about anti-vaxxers.
00:42:30.000And then, you know, and then the next thing you know, I was advising Obama on fighting ISIS.
00:42:34.000And I just remember being like, I don't think it works like that.
00:42:36.000You know, like, I think it's like, these are like really hierarchical military intelligence organizations.
00:42:42.000And that this is a person who came out of, you know, and I don't know if she, you know, was recruited out of the NSA, which does all the spy satellites and whatnot, but, you know, this particular kind of a peculiar career.
00:42:58.000And then she's been, I think, one of the most important intellectual architects of the censorship industrial complex.
00:43:04.000And, you know, you would listen to her and it'd be like talking about like reducing harm in the real world and using very progressive language, like that's like language of compassion.
00:43:16.000We have to reduce hatred in the society.
00:43:18.000And then it just feels like that moment from, you know, the Bourne movie where it's like, and then we have to, you know, fight the disinformation.
00:43:24.000And so, you know, I have to say, I think, like, that seems to be, I mean, that seems to be, like, the undercurrent, is that I think that there's, that what brings us all together is a kind of suspicion of authority.
00:43:36.000I mean, my dad had, not only did he have a Beetle, a VW Bug, we had the question authority sticker on the car.
00:43:45.000And so, for me, that was a part of it.
00:43:48.000And I think one of the delightful parts of it is that there's people in this anti-censorship movement, this free speech movement, There was a guy that had blocked me because we had been in this huge fight about nuclear power, which is something that I support.
00:44:02.000A lot of the folks that are very anti-authoritarian are anti-nuclear.
00:44:07.000I actually asked him recently to stop blocking me on Twitter and he did because we're on the same side of this.
00:44:14.000And so, but I do feel like that seems like that's a big part of it is that if there's an ideology, it's just some of it's like just questioning authority and, you know, being able to have a conversation and ask hard questions of people and not kind of not wanting to be in a situation of just following orders.
00:44:33.000My concern is that the end point of this is an inability to openly communicate in good faith, in particular with people that you disagree with.
00:44:40.000It's interesting that Matt Taibbi uses as his framework George Orwell, and you use a lesser known Bourne film.
00:44:54.000Do you think Matt, that this oddly mercurial shape-shifting, probably shouldn't use conspiracy theory type language, should I, in this context.
00:45:06.000Do you think that this odd pathology might afford the possibility that many of the agencies and key figures that profess concern around misinformation and its linguistic acolytes Mal and Diss, I think, are the other ones you can have, aren't they?
00:45:28.000Like Scrooge's nephews in the Duck Tales films, which I reckon Michael will probably use as a paradigm in a minute.
00:45:41.000Do you reckon that some of them agencies that are like, oh no, we've got to watch all this misinformation, are actually culpable for themselves spreading misinformation?
00:45:53.000I mean, Russell, I don't think they see it as disinformation.
00:45:56.000I think they see things as politically true, even if they're factually proven untrue later, right?
00:46:05.000I mean, Michael and I, just in the last week or so, we've gotten in the middle of this story involving the origins of COVID-19.
00:46:16.000Now, this is really a fascinating episode in world history, because this thing happened, And immediately, before we had any answer as to, you know, the cause of the pandemic, a whole universe of possibilities was ruled out.
00:46:36.000We were basically just told, it can't be this.
00:46:42.000And that is something that maybe you might See somebody in the military think, but a journalist should never think like that.
00:46:49.000First of all, we shouldn't really care.
00:46:53.000All the old journalists that I know would be...
00:46:57.000They would start with indifference, you know, I'm happy to report this if this is true, I'm happy to report that if that's true.
00:47:05.000But we were told, you know, basically, no, this is the new version of how we do information in the world, is that things are right and righteous, and that you have to get behind them emotionally as you're reporting them.
00:47:22.000Therefore, there's this extraordinary incentive to become a believer.
00:47:28.000It's much more like religion than journalism, I think.
00:47:33.000I think that's kind of the same precondition you have to have to fight a war.
00:47:46.000It's so different from how I was raised to view journalism.
00:47:52.000What they've succeeded in doing, and I was going to ask you about this because you're in this very strange position with YouTube and Rumble and everything, where you have to be constantly thinking, what are they going to consider real and what are they going to consider off-limits?
00:48:10.000And how do you do humor in a situation like that?
00:48:12.000How do you do reporting in a situation like that?
00:48:15.000If, I mean, look at the New York, the New York Times had to basically write around, you know, stories about Nord Stream, the Wall Street Journal is now having to write around Stories about, you know, the COVID leak.
00:48:30.000There was a story last week about, you know, neo-Nazi emblems in Ukraine, and they had to frame it as this might hurt the war effort by making Russian propaganda look good, as opposed to just reporting it.
00:48:48.000So they've turned us into believers instead of just sort of passive consumers.
00:48:53.000You know, judges who are interested, and I just wonder, I mean, what do you do when you're doing your show?
00:49:00.000Do you have to give in to that urge to consider it all the time?
00:49:05.000My sense is that something seismic happened at the point of Assange's revelations and arrests, and the legacy media became in some way simultaneously castrated and indoctrinated, unable anymore to alloy themselves to principled journalism of integrity, there was a requirement to adopt a kind of aesthetic of cultural piety.
00:49:35.000And when you say religion, as Nick Cave said, it sometimes feels like religion but stripped of forgiveness, redemption, salvation, unity, aspiration, love, glory, beauty, service.
00:49:53.000And the way we undertake the content that we use on our channel is we make sure that either you or you have written it, and then we use that.
00:50:59.000And the fact is that within our small team, there are people with quite strongly opposing views on, Issues that define our conversation, not something like the ability to communicate freely in good faith.
00:51:13.000I think most of us believe in the absolute necessity for that, as you indicated in your rather statesmanly opening speech.
00:51:22.000It's perhaps one of the crucibles of a necessary value system for true democracy, you could argue.
00:51:31.000So I'm lucky that I work with Gareth, Roy and Leon and people that put a lot of effort and work into ensuring that there is rigorous journalism in the source material and in our presentation of it.
00:53:07.000And I think I watched him with Norman Fenton, who is someone that we also love, yeah.
00:53:14.000My colleague Alex Gutentag, who's a genius on the COVID issue, introduced me to him.
00:53:18.000And I can't understand, I'm not a good person at math, but he explained the statistics of it.
00:53:23.000But they did a whole YouTube, and he had to be very careful in how they talked about the efficacy of the vaccine.
00:53:30.000And I was curious if both, yeah, have you been censored?
00:53:34.000Has it changed how you do your approach?
00:53:38.000Do you do some things on Rumble that you don't do on YouTube?
00:53:42.000Well, absolutely we must because the advantage of Rumble is that they have made an absolute commitment to content creators not to censor.
00:53:54.000The assumption that this commitment is afforded only to facilitate hate speech is precisely the kind of sociopathic framing that has been touched upon already.
00:54:07.000The idea that you would only use free speech to hate people.
00:54:15.000Of course, finding myself in new territory with new alliances has been at times confusing
00:54:24.000But I have found very helpful the analysis offered in Martin Gurry's book, which I think you turned us on to, who was a former CIA analyst, who recognized that the diagnostic tools we were using were no longer appropriate, and even our vocabulary had to shift. And this is all from, as best I understand it,
00:54:44.000not from an ideological perspective, but from the perspective of a data and analysis. He says
00:54:49.000you can no longer use the terms left and right. You have to think of power dynamics in terms of the
00:56:00.000Because the reason that Martin Goury offered this analysis is because he said technology has changed, the ability to communicate has changed, Centralized authoritarian structures recognize they cannot control the population in the same way that they used to be able to because there are no longer the gatekeeper relationships with either state or privately funded media outlets that will more or less toe the line other than rare instances where their interests don't converge and as we have been taught by George Carlin, where interests converge there is no need for conspiracy.
00:56:32.000And on this subject of conspiracy, I would like to ask you, now that so many of the ideas that have once been the... that have left the realm of conspiracy to become verified fact, how can this continue to be used as a smear?
00:56:47.000And do you both, as credible journalists, well-educated, they've done things like...
00:56:51.000Lived in Iraq and stuff during wars and proper hardcore journalism, flak jacket journalism, ducking as a bomb goes off in the background journalism, the sort of thing that used to be credible and admired.
00:57:03.000How do you cope with having such a sort of slanderous term daubed across your door, along with letters from the IRS, I understand?
00:57:15.000I mean, you know, my own personal journey started to take a really dark turn when the Trump-Russia story started to happen.
00:57:26.000And I had lived in Russia for a long time, so I got a lot of phone calls from colleagues and wanted to know what I thought about it.
00:57:33.000I didn't really say anything that hardcore at first.
00:57:35.000I just said, well, we should, you know, given what happened with WMDs, we should probably wait to see what the evidence is before, you know, we make any conclusions about this.
00:57:46.000And suddenly, you know, old friends stopped calling me.
00:57:50.000And before I knew it, I was out of the business.
00:57:55.000The weirder thing, though, is when, you know, I turned out to be right about this, people hated me even more.
00:58:01.000And, you know, when the Twitter files happened, it wasn't just, I mean, I knew going into it, I think we all knew that No matter what we found that it was not going to be covered by NBC, CBS, CNN, The New York Times, Washington Post, no matter what the content was, they weren't going to take that stuff and really digest it and do anything with it.
00:58:29.000In the old days of journalism, you would always, when you did an important story, you were kind of always hoping the cavalry would come afterwards and that the story would get moved forward.
00:58:40.000We knew that wasn't going to happen, right?
00:58:43.000But what I didn't expect was the The level of vitriol and hatred which was, like, sincere.
00:58:51.000Like, people were really, really angry that we were just putting emails out on the Internet.
00:58:58.000And, you know, there was information that I thought was in the public interest, clearly.
00:59:04.000I mean, it seemed like the public would want to know that the FBI and The Department of Homeland Security and what they call other government agencies, the CIA maybe, is meeting on a weekly or monthly basis with
00:59:18.00020 or 30 of the biggest tech companies in America.
00:59:27.000But they weren't just indifferent, they were angry.
00:59:31.000And that is new, and I think that's why I was trying to talk about the psychological aspect of this, because they successfully constructed a kind of A news consumer who only feels sort of, you know, enthusiasm for the cause and then total disgust, like they're the only emotions that people feel, and that can be very dispiriting to deal with, you know?
00:59:59.000I mean, it does, even after the Twitter files, you know, we thought we might make some headway a little bit there with some of those stories, but it really didn't, you know, make much of a dent with I was going to say, the response was, it's not censorship, and there should be a lot more of it.
01:00:24.000You know, that was, I mean, that was in front of Congress.
01:00:26.000It was, I mean, we just had, you know, sorry to say, Democrats who were like, we need more censorship, basically.
01:00:34.000I mean, they couldn't quite, I think part of the anger was they couldn't quite say we want more censorship.
01:00:40.000And that was part of the thing is that like because at first when if you start to use I mean this is I think the other thing that Orwell teaches us is that words are so powerful and that when it's like we're just fighting disinformation like how could you be against fighting lies?
01:00:54.000And and then you're like well isn't disinformation just like another word for like things you disagree with?
01:01:00.000And you know that was when it was like I think that I think they realized that they were in that situation and and then externalize their anger at us about it.
01:01:11.000Really quickly, there were other things about the Twitter files, too, that I thought were... People were coming at us with this legalistic argument.
01:01:19.000Oh, well, that's not technically a First Amendment violation, so this story's bogus.
01:01:25.000Well, okay, fine, but why don't you care that the FBI is sending emails to Twitter about somebody in Arizona who's got eight followers and is making a joke, basically, like that?
01:01:39.000I thought that was a significant piece of news, because what does it tell you?
01:02:23.000It's curious how many times the The template that appears to be described involves the reversal of a type of charge, that things are being inverted and flipped curiously.
01:02:40.000Perhaps it is significant that in this technology, backed by the right ideology and the correct values, we now actually have the potential for unprecedented levels of cooperation, democracy, autonomy, decentralized leadership, discourse, debate, almost as if the tools for an entirely different social, economic, and political model have been created.
01:03:08.000And it has become necessary to colonize in the way the imperialistic powers have always colonized new territories under the guise of benevolence.
01:03:18.000You wouldn't know what to do with those diamonds.
01:03:42.000It requires a moral charge and that will be designated by and determined by the powerful.
01:03:48.000Sometimes I wonder when I'm listening to you describe this These terrifying emergent phenomena, if it's as simple as the way that the economic model is shifting with mainstream media outlets now bundling and dispatching data with more profligacy than even porn sites, I gather.
01:04:05.000This is just academic research, Matt, you understand.
01:04:10.000And of course, the fact that their advertising models have collapsed as independent media now has a greater access and ability to promote goods and services more effectively than their rather clumsy, centralised, behemoth models.
01:04:27.000We're going to take some questions from the audience.
01:04:31.000If you have a question, Please raise your hand.
01:04:34.000Although we have been chatting to the star of everyone in the world's favorite movie, the Shawshank Redemption, Mr. Tim Robbins with a question.
01:04:42.000A round of applause for the great Tim Robbins!
01:04:57.000Well, I wonder what all of you feel about the way forward.
01:05:04.000As far as communicating with people that perhaps felt a different way in the past three years, and how do we reach out to these people in a healthy way to start a communication again in such a tribal environment?
01:05:36.000Well, what I'm planning to do is to continue to be open-hearted and loving and faithful in the conversations I have with other people, particularly people that I disagree with.
01:05:47.000I suppose this is a unique opportunity, a divisive time that seems to be defined by conflagration, conflict, and opposition.
01:05:54.000And yet, as we touched upon in the earlier part of our conversation, the facility for an entirely different society already exists.
01:06:02.000Sometimes I think what's required is a gratitude for the institutions that we have been imbued with.
01:06:08.000Now we have the facility for great media, we have the institutions for wonderful health, we have incredible technological and scientific advancement, and even in the opposition that we have with others, we have to, I suppose if we're approaching this in good faith, assume that people we disagree with have comparable values and principles to us.
01:06:26.000I suppose that, in particular, my worldview is undergirded by spiritual principles, and I don't mean that in a deracinated woo-woo way.
01:06:36.000I mean that kindness, service, a willingness to forgive and be forgiven seem to me to be an absolute...
01:06:45.000Necessity, if we're going to progress.
01:06:48.000It's more that it's morally correct to be forgiving and loving to other people.
01:06:53.000It's that it is a necessity of the necessary victory, in order that we do not yield to centralized authoritarianism.
01:07:03.000Of course, for me, it seems like that's where this is going.
01:07:05.000It seems that it's almost like you can see the shapes forming of, hold on a minute, the American government are using taxpayer dollars to acquire private data of its citizens from private companies in order to bypass its own legislation.
01:07:21.000The military-industrial complex appears to require forever wars in order to underwrite its economic model.
01:07:28.000We're going to find ourselves literally somewhere between the twin dystopias of those great literary prophets, Orwell and Huxley, and already the name has been evoked, of course, of Orwell by Matt Taibbi.
01:07:42.000Of course, though, Michael Schellenberger's references are usually the Bourne identity, and he's going to give a ten-minute speech in a minute based on part two of John Wick.
01:07:53.000So I think good faith, good humour, good grace, and a willingness to acknowledge that we've all made mistakes.
01:07:59.000How are we going to get anywhere together?
01:08:44.000The best people want to be of service.
01:08:48.000I guess the last thing I would just say is, I mean, this whole thing came because I was feeling really drawn to London right now.
01:08:56.000And particularly earlier this year, there's so many people here who I admire.
01:09:00.000And Francis, who gets up here, does this incredible podcast that's very...
01:09:05.000psychologically rich and very humanistic and I knew I wanted to come but I didn't have any reason to come until we figured out that there was the censorship industrial complex and then when we put out the call to come and we see people that we know We see their faces and so there's something that's been missing and then you feel like you you're coming back to it when you're together.
01:09:28.000So I hope that I thought that during the pandemic that there would be this moment when we would have sort of the pandemic is over day.
01:09:36.000You know, where it'd be like, it's, you know, September 1st and the pandemic is over and everyone burned their masks, you know, you know, in mass.
01:09:46.000And it feels like everybody wants to get back together and they want to travel and they want to be together.
01:09:51.000So I hope this is the beginning of a series of international in-person gatherings of people that love freedom and that love community, because I think we really all, I know I need it.
01:10:02.000and I think that other people really need it too.
01:10:13.000Yeah, all I would say is I remember, I've told this story before, but I remember in August of
01:10:20.0002016, the New York Times came out with an article that was called,
01:10:25.000"Trump is Testing the Norms of Objectivity in Journalism."
01:10:28.000And it was a column by a guy named Jim Rutenberg.
01:10:31.000And basically the premise of it was that journalists no longer needed to worry just about being true, but had to worry about being true to history's judgment.
01:10:42.000And what I think they meant by that basically was the old version of what we do for a living, which was we just gather facts and give them to you and trust you to do the right thing with that information.
01:10:55.000That doesn't work anymore because we don't trust you.
01:10:59.000So we are going to shape the information in such a way that you do the right thing with it.
01:11:06.000And I think this is just deeply off-putting and Inevitably unsuccessful, and I think the only thing that you can do if you're in media, for instance, is to continue to invest in that relationship with your audience and say, I do trust you.
01:11:30.000Whatever I see, I'll pass it along to you.
01:11:33.000I don't need you to behave one way or the other.
01:11:36.000I don't need you to draw one conclusion or another.
01:12:19.000I've been very encouraged by how often during this conversation we've returned to a subject matter that feels interpersonal and emotional, that it's not entirely about cybernetics and networked power and the way that machines integrate and interact with one another.
01:12:40.000It's encouraging to deal with it on an emotional level.
01:12:43.000It occurred to me then when dealing with that sort of great chimera and weathervane that is Donald Trump that with both of the recent, two recent examples of whistleblowing have demonstrated again One example of whistleblowing and another the story
01:13:04.000around the classified documents in the possession of, that Trump has in his possession.
01:13:08.000And the other story that I'm referring to is a young buddy boy, Texera, I call him.
01:13:13.000The lad that did the Pentagon Papers that revealed that there was an entirely different perspective
01:13:18.000on the Ukraine war within American military circles than was being conveyed through media.
01:13:23.000And the stories around the, the narrativization around the story was all about the individual
01:13:29.000and the morality and virtues of the individual.
01:13:32.000And similarly with Trump, who obviously is a much more divisive figure,
01:13:37.000no one is talking about what the censored material is.
01:13:42.000And there's at least one article by Branco Marketage based on fairly reliable sources I understand.
01:13:47.000They indicate that the plans for a war with Iran is some of the censored information.
01:13:51.000And it's like we've become unable to identify What information is important?
01:13:58.000And also the idea that people want to be subject to censorship.
01:14:06.000In the post-Assange, post-Snowden world, you can't take on good faith that what's being censored is for your own good.
01:14:15.000You can't have that perspective anymore, we've been stripped of that and I think I find your sort of easy neutrality coupled with what appears to be virtue encouraging that it's not governed by bombast and zeal and evangelism which I Rather like myself.
01:14:35.000But a kind of, well, no, these are the facts, here's the information.
01:14:39.000I'm enjoying the various ways that it's being sketched out.
01:15:02.000I have a question for Michael, actually.
01:15:04.000I know you ran for governor in Newsom's recall, I did vote for you, and I was wondering how much you experienced during that time of whether it's this You know, the censorship industrial complex or any sort of forces of people being kept away from each other.
01:15:25.000I look at this room and we all seem to kind of come from different places, different political backgrounds.
01:15:29.000But one thing I've noticed in this country, where I've lived for 20 years, as well as when I go back to California, is kind of the old school liberals getting together with some of us on the center right, shall we say, And saying, OK, let's forget these pet issues, because we're not going to have a country or countries unless we get the basics right.
01:15:50.000Obviously, free speech, free movement of money, civil liberties, all of that.
01:15:56.000How much did you experience when you were running for governor?
01:15:59.000And do you have any hope for California going forward, seeing as that, you know, the statement
01:16:03.000"As goes California, so goes the rest of the nation."
01:16:09.000The, the, one thing that, one benefit for running for political office is that you are
01:16:16.000supposed to have somewhat more protection of your speech.
01:16:20.000And so I'm not a fan of Robert F. Kennedy Jr.' 's position on vaccines or his position on nuclear power.
01:16:29.000But I admire him actually responding to the call and speaking out for freedom of speech, and I'm disturbed that he's having his videos taken down from YouTube.
01:16:41.000This is, I mean, a very significant form of censorship, and I'm troubled by it.
01:16:49.000I'm very troubled by my adopted state of California.
01:16:53.000I mean, we had a woman on the streets.
01:17:05.000They amputated her legs and they put her back on the streets.
01:17:09.000I don't understand how anybody can think of that as the humane, compassionate thing to do.
01:17:16.000We're letting ideology overtake just basic human response and You know, those of us that have been in recovery or are in recovery and understand that all addiction requires a form of intervention.
01:17:32.000And so, yeah, for me, I think California requires an intervention.
01:17:37.000We need to stand up and say, this is at some fundamental level not right when you're not intervening in the lives of people who are destroying themselves in the downtown of your cities, and you're destroying your cities.
01:17:50.000Businesses are now fleeing San Francisco.
01:17:52.000Westfield Mall, Nordstrom's, leaving San Francisco.
01:17:56.000I'm sorry, I don't have a more positive thing to say about it.
01:18:00.000I think that, you know, when my book San Francisco came out in 2021, people were like, that's really rude.
01:18:08.000You know, I can't believe you would say that.
01:18:11.000And now I think a new study came out today that shows that it's like of 170 cities in the country, San Francisco is considered like the worst managed.
01:18:20.000Not like you needed a survey to show it.
01:18:23.000So I'm afraid I don't have a lot of optimism about it.
01:18:25.000I think that reform may need to be reversed and that reform may need to start in the East and sweep West rather than the other way around.
01:18:34.000It seems to me likely, possible, perhaps even necessary, that independent media will, by virtue of the role it will play in this issue among others, become politicized.
01:18:48.000In fact, it already is and will necessarily become activated And organised in ways that I think are becoming clear, and in fact that you're perhaps expediating through your actions and through your foresight in holding this event.
01:19:03.000I saw some hands... Oh no, Stella Assange is in!
01:19:06.000in which case, please ladies and gentlemen, how about a round of applause for Stella Assange?
01:19:10.000I'd like to thank you guys for making me nervous again.
01:19:25.000Because I speak all the time, but for some reason right now, probably because you guys are on stage, I'm really nervous to speak.
01:19:34.000But anyway, as you... Would you feel more comfortable coming up here and joining me?
01:20:04.000Most of you are probably aware that my husband Julian is in a very precarious position right now.
01:20:16.000The High Court of England has made the completely inexplicable decision to not even allow him to appeal to the High Court.
01:20:37.000He made an application to appeal in September last year, and it took a single judge 10 months to issue a three-page decision, which, without engaging in any of the arguments, said that Julian is not allowed to appeal.
01:21:05.000He still has one final opportunity to go to two different high court judges.
01:21:26.000Whereas all of you have experienced and seen the censorship that occurs on social media, this kind of unseen You know, effect kind of turns you a bit paranoid.
01:22:22.000An intelligence analyst who witnessed, who was reading reports showing information about civilian killings, and there are tens of thousands of civilian killings in Iraq and Afghanistan, evidence of war crimes, including a video that was released, collateral murder in 2010, showing how a helicopter gunship mowed down civilians, literally picking them off.
01:22:54.000Including two journalists and critically injured two children.
01:23:02.000And mowed down the rescue vehicle who came to try to bring one of the dying journalists to a hospital and killed them all as well, except the two children survived because their father threw his body on top of them and they were severely injured, but they survived.
01:23:24.000It's age-restricted on YouTube because it might hurt your sensibilities to witness a war crime.
01:23:34.000Well, Julian and WikiLeaks put that into the public domain.
01:23:39.000And the record of tens of thousands of civilian killings in Iraq and Afghanistan, and evidence of torture, and evidence of how the U.S.
01:23:48.000government was using its embassies to inhibit and derail the investigations in Germany, in Spain, in Italy, of CIA renditions, to stop the people who were Responsible for being brought to trial for having their day in court because it is an enforcement of impunity.
01:24:15.000And the case against Julian is of impunity against accountability.
01:24:23.000And the fact is that Julian is in prison because he published the truth.
01:24:29.000Because he exposed the criminality of the country that is trying to extradite him.
01:24:38.000And that country also plotted to assassinate him when Pompeo was head of the CIA.
01:24:45.000How can this country, the UK, possibly extradite him to the United States?
01:24:55.000The country that plotted his assassination, the country that he exposed committing war crimes and for whom no one has been held accountable.
01:25:05.000There has been a campaign of smearing Julian for years in order to pave the way to his incarceration.
01:26:07.000We have to organize because the other side is organized and they're abusing Legislation, they're abusing the complacency of the public in order to get their way.
01:26:57.000On Saturday, there's a concrete thing you can do, which is to come here at one o'clock.
01:27:09.000There's going to be a statue here in Parliament Square, somewhere, of Edward Snowden, Chelsea Manning, and Julian, and there's an empty chair next to them.
01:27:23.000They're standing on chairs, these statues, and there's an empty chair.
01:28:12.000media in ignoring this story Especially over the last five years is just totally inexcusable.
01:28:22.000It's one of the things that turned me off to quote unquote mainstream media is their inability to recognize not only the cruelty of what's going on, but the The significance of Julian's case for the future of journalism, it shows their total myopia and blindness and it's just, it's horrible.
01:28:47.000A couple other things though, Daniel Ellsberg just passed.
01:28:52.000Um, and you know, we should, this is the sort of analogous figure from the 70s, once much celebrated by quote-unquote the sort of liberal America.
01:29:04.000In fact, they very recently made a hagiographic movie, The Post.
01:29:10.000Celebrating the heroism of the Washington Post in bringing the Pentagon Papers out and defying the government that would censor it.
01:29:21.000The reality is something we found in the Twitter files.
01:29:24.000There was an episode that we discovered where A number of journalists got together.
01:29:32.000This was connected to the tabletop exercise that Michael talked about.
01:29:38.000Stanford University academics, members of the U.S.
01:29:42.000government for a year preceding that exercise planned to overturn what they called the Pentagon Papers principle.
01:29:53.000They wanted to change this idea that journalism was about bringing dangerous truths to the public.
01:30:00.000They believed that they wanted to reverse that whole concept, that journalism was actually about protecting the public from things that it didn't need to know.
01:30:10.000And so we see this dramatic shift in values Where even the Washington Post, which again was taking credit for the Pentagon Papers as it was doing this, so they're about to try to send Julian Assange to jail for 170 years.
01:30:25.000for 170 years, is that how much it is?
01:30:59.000Do you want to add anything to what Matt said regarding Stella and Julian?
01:31:03.000Just that I'm totally moved by the case and I have a lot more learning to do and I look forward to getting educated and speaking out on it.
01:31:12.000I'll then add that Stella, I'm very grateful to you for bringing that spirit to our conversation.
01:31:21.000And he's very fortunate to have you as an advocate and an ally.
01:31:26.000And we are fortunate to be reminded that this is not a hypothetical conversation about a foreboding and potential problem.
01:31:36.000It is a tide that has already risen and claimed some territory has already been yielded and seeded and it is I'm very grateful to you for explaining that so articulately and with such evident and obvious emotion as a campaigner and as a lawyer but also as a wife and as a mother.
01:31:58.000Thank you very much for bringing that.
01:33:01.000We've seen the beacon of truth that is illustrated by Julian Assange as a permanent reminder of the heights that we may not reach to, but now we even have a bar within these technological platforms that we know we cannot cross, so we dance and we walk the line, or we go to a desexualized platform, Odyssey, Rumble, which offer us the opportunity to speak our truth, but to a smaller audience who perhaps are where we're preaching to the converted or the choir already.
01:33:27.000So how then do we tackle The likes of Facebook and YouTube and these other mainstream platforms without another Moneybags who's free spirit to come and buy up all these channels.
01:33:36.000How do we fight back because there are thousands of broadcasters around the world right now
01:33:40.000who are unable to speak the truth because the line has been set and we can only dance around it or go to another
01:33:46.000platform where we can't reach the matters who need to hear this
01:34:32.000There's censorship on every platform, including Twitter.
01:34:38.000And we can debate how much of that is the fault of its current owner, how much of it he can control, how much of it he can't control.
01:34:45.000You may have seen that Elon Musk was just in Europe this week and basically made the same agreement that he did with Turkey.
01:34:53.000My own view is that governments should mandate the owners of all the social media platforms to be transparent about their censorship decisions and give the right of response.
01:35:04.000Our own laws make it very difficult to require a social media platform to carry particular forms of speech, because compelled speech is considered a violation of the First Amendment.
01:35:17.000That may be different in different countries, but I think it's going to be very hard to compel them to host different speech.
01:35:23.000So that means that you need multiple platforms.
01:35:26.000When Facebook censored Seymour Hersh, We denounced it on Twitter, and we did see a response, a lessening, not an elimination, but a lessening of the censorship.
01:35:39.000I'm personally being censored on Facebook right now.
01:35:42.000To give you a sense of it, the story that Matt and I broke on the first three people to get COVID.
01:35:48.000We had 5 million views on Twitter, and even though I posted it on Facebook at the same time, it had only 5 people sharing it.
01:36:12.000I think we're interested in going there now.
01:36:14.000We need to be able to go to these places where we can find openings and opportunities.
01:36:18.000But I also think we have to get out of this thing of, like you were, I think you were intimating, of appealing to these powerful billionaires for mercy.
01:36:28.000We need to demand that our governments require that they be transparent in their censorship demands.
01:36:35.000It's got to be a citizen's movement because we can't just be appealing to authority.
01:37:17.000But even more importantly, I think, as the example of Julian Assange, what they want to do with cases like Julian is prevent the next person from trying that, right?
01:37:28.000That's the whole point of being as cruel and as heavy-handed as they are in that case, is the next person who gets collateral murder, they want them to think twice about publishing that video.
01:38:21.000You alluded briefly to recovery earlier, Michael, and because I live within a template of personal requirements where I have to observe my own tendency to want to control My own tendency to be competitive or petty or trivial, I recognize I have a personal responsibility that I see other people tackling far more gracefully, even on this stage, an ability to be open-minded, an ability to be intrepid and investigative, and the contribution from Stella reminds us of the necessity for sacrifice.
01:38:55.000The thing that I have continual recourse to that inspires me continually, actually, is that I marvel at the endeavor involved in creating these systems of control.
01:39:09.000The shutting down of protest, the endless surveillance, the censorship, the legal tools that are deployed, the technological tools that are deployed, the willingness to overrule democracy, national sovereignty, to smear even the most truthful endeavors as being somehow mendacious or duplicitous.
01:39:34.000It also reminds me that there is a necessity to overtly, obviously, and plainly refute the claims that are often made, to be clear about inclusivity, to be absolutely open-hearted and loving towards people of all forms of identification, all forms of religious, cultural, national identification, have to be openly embraced.
01:39:55.000There has to be As we saw there, when people favour, when one man at least, favoured another person's free speech above their own.
01:40:03.000When we have recourse to simple, I call Sesame Street values, kindness, service, sweetness to one another, I feel then that we have a great power, a great power That they wouldn't be working nearly so hard if they did not fear us.
01:40:21.000And while we have in the figure of Julian Assange a potential martyr, we don't have to allow that to be the case.
01:40:29.000We have to bond and bind and be vocal together and willing to sacrifice and willing to support The great work and bravery of journalists where we find them and be forgiving of other people who don't have those values.
01:40:48.000Sure as hell it must be difficult to endure life without trial in Belmarsh or the potential of 175 years without trial in a country he may yet be exiled to.
01:41:00.000We must learn to recognize heroism when we see it.
01:41:02.000We must be willing to forgive fallibility in ourselves and others.
01:41:06.000We must recognize that we have a deep and powerful resource within us and it is available to all of us in this instant now.
01:41:15.000Thank you all very much for your personal contributions.