Dr. John Campbell is a scientist, a doctor, a man of integrity and authority, and a man we need in positions of power these days. In this interview, Dr. Campbell talks about how important it is to have people like Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, Marty Makari, and Bobby Kennedy in the upper echelons of American health.
00:03:30.000Thanks for joining me today for Stay Free with Russell Brand.
00:03:32.000Those of you that watched our content throughout the pandemic period, where we made our bones, made our reputation, and made an impact in the independent media space, will remember that as well as talking to people that are now in the upper echelons of American health, like Jay Bhattacharya, and Marty Makari, and Bobby Kennedy, and Aaron Seery and Callie Means and more.
00:03:53.000Many of you still watch his YouTube channel without knowing that much of his power comes from a surprising source and resource.
00:04:01.000And we're going to be talking about that.
00:04:03.000If you're watching us on YouTube, we'll be there for about the first 15 minutes.
00:04:05.000If you know Dr. John Campbell's content, you know that he meticulously manoeuvres around the complications of YouTube and their imperative to censor content.
00:04:15.000If you're not on Awaken Wonder yet, become an Awaken Wonder now and you get to join us live for conversations like this one as well as my deep dives into Christian content with a variety of people.
00:04:26.000And remember now, we are streaming four times a week but the content's better than ever because we're making content just like this.
00:04:33.000It's not that you can really change yourself, can't it?
00:05:45.000He has a very particular style of communicating, but he is a scientist, a doctor, a man of integrity and authority, and these are the kind of people we need in positions of power these days.
00:05:54.000Let's begin the interview, but we won't be able to finish it on YouTube.
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00:06:18.000Without further ado, let's join Dr John Campbell.
00:06:21.000I'm here with Dr. John Campbell, one of the great heroes of the pandemic era, whose content and journey lifted many spirits.
00:06:32.000Because John Campbell, like I would say men like Jay Bhattacharya and Marty Makari, are the kind of people that reassure you that there are people that are able to straddle the worlds of science and faith, of acknowledging that science is great at telling us how things happen, but not why things happen.
00:06:50.000That we are able to rely on clinical trials, empiricism, and the great principles of science, but what we can't rely on is the fallibility of humankind and to reduce and subvert systems of science to systems of exploitation.
00:07:06.000In so much as if science is a subset of corporatism and commercialism, then what kind of empiricism is left?
00:07:13.000If big pharma and health ultimately are controlled by corporate and maybe even globalist interests, and maybe it's even darker than that, how can we rely on their findings?
00:07:22.000Who pays for the clinical trials that happen?
00:07:25.000Who will refuse to pay for clinical trials that ought to happen?
00:07:28.000Who's spending money to prove that natural immunity and vitamin D, sunshine and deep breaths are effective when you could have clinical trials to demonstrate that new mRNA technologies are valuable, maybe even invaluable?
00:07:41.000All of these questions were worked out live by my guest, John Campbell, who's a teaching professional as well as a medic, whose brilliant trademark Non-blustery, straightforward, let's face it, British style was a beacon to many and an inspiration to many more during the pandemic period.
00:08:04.000Dr John Campbell, thanks for joining us for this live conversation available to our Awakened Wonder community.
00:08:10.000Click the link in the description if you want to become an Awakened Wonder.
00:08:44.000For example, just before our conversation, I was watching that clip of Trump with that journalist from Meet the Press, and where he sort of talked candidly about his appetite to investigate causal or correlative links between vaccines and autism,
00:09:02.000and just how, sort of what a vertiginous kind of A pang is induced when you see that conversation that had been so successfully chased to the periphery, discussed by the President of the United States on the mainstream.
00:09:16.000Now, of course, I really want to talk to you about Christianity and faith and principles.
00:09:20.000Indeed, how can you ever ultimately discuss politics without discussing faith and virtue and ultimately discussing God in some form, God in inverted commas at the very least.
00:09:37.000Marty Makari now is the head of the FDA. Jay Bhattacharya is the head of the NIH. Bobby Kennedy is the head of the HHS. Well, all of these await confirmation, of course, so we don't want to be too presumptuous.
00:09:50.000Are you astonished to see these kind of conversations taking place publicly?
00:09:56.000Quite frankly, given the calibre of people that are now being given a public voice and the amount of work they've done over the decades, and they're finally being liberated, as it were.
00:10:08.000These are people that have been studying this, been working in this field for all of their lifetimes.
00:10:15.000They know all of a sudden They're giving the political freedom.
00:10:18.000So given that they're in their positions that they have now, I can just only imagine the kind of relief that they're feeling to be able to actually speak all of a sudden, and it's just brilliant to see.
00:10:33.000I'm surprised the way it's gone, but I'm not surprised at what they're saying because we've got some very high-caliber, very thoughtful people.
00:10:41.000And you raised a really interesting point there, Russell.
00:10:58.000I'm actually very optimistic that we're going to get release of a lot of primary source data.
00:11:03.000We're not short of brilliant statisticians.
00:11:06.000We've got number crunchers just waiting to analyse this stuff.
00:11:10.000We can even now pay professionals to analyse it on behalf of the government, and we can get some real hard data, and we can change correlations and suspicions into real science and real cause and effect data.
00:12:18.000Optimism, ephemeral optimism that can exist, I would say, in liminal and chaotic spaces.
00:12:25.000It seems sort of weird to say that, because when you're talking about Trump and Elon Musk, obviously you're talking about incredibly powerful people.
00:12:32.000But real power goes way beyond human power.
00:12:36.000And increasingly, Dr. John, I've been thinking...
00:12:41.000But, you know, say if you, I pay attention to David Icke, which is an interesting thing, because David Icke usually, like, I'm one of the people that David Icke goes on to X to sort of criticise, you know?
00:12:52.000And, like, I understand it and appreciate it, because I think David Icke feels like, hang on a minute, I've been talking about all this stuff for ages, and these people now that are making money, or at least have influence in these spaces, you know, they're not going far enough, they're compromised, they're, like, you know, all All sorts of opinions that I'm sure have their own validity, but for a lot of people, David Icke will have been written off for being too extreme.
00:13:17.000A lot of people will say that, like, you know, gosh, and this is a charge that gets offered at a means directed at many, that he's an anti-Semite.
00:13:25.000Lots of things we get, and some people just think that David Icke is ridiculous.
00:13:28.000But when it, gosh, it's almost like the more that is revealed when it comes to, you know, high-powered, high-profile paedophiles, the potential that there are sort of institutionalised sex things going on.
00:13:41.000The ritualisation of those activities.
00:13:44.000Then, you know, for corporatism, an agenda to assert and exert citizen management by claiming it's for the good of people, using crises to justify authoritarianism.
00:13:56.000Not that Ike is the author of a lot of those ideas.
00:14:01.000Noam Chomsky is the person that says, you know, problem, solution, reaction, or whatever it is.
00:14:06.000That's, I think, Chomsky that came up with that.
00:14:11.000I guess this was a roundabout way of me asking, John, and sort of moving us towards the area that I'd like to discuss with you, is that a lot of people now, because of the emergence of independent media, are able to and willing to attack establishment narratives, whether it comes to the field in which you have garnered some renown, you know, big pharma, medicine, healthcare, or...
00:14:36.000When it comes to reporting on wars, you know, even with, like, recent events in Syria, straight away, people are like, this reporting saying that this al-Qaeda group are great seems sort of a little bit compromised, and look at the funding ones, some of them are funded by the Pentagon, some are funded by the CIA. We're all kind of a fae with information that, not that long ago, John, would have been really esoteric and would have been coming from the left.
00:15:01.000Naomi Klein with her book Shock Doctrine about how South America was continually being co-opted, corrupted and overtaken by deep state US interests.
00:15:11.000How coups were continually being sponsored.
00:15:13.000Now, these tropes tend somehow to exist on the right and pertain to a type of power that still remains political and material one way or another.
00:15:23.000What I'm wondering, John, when we're talking about faith versus science, is are you becoming increasingly sympathetic to the idea that power may go beyond the simple matter of controlling resources and controlling information?
00:15:39.000Very much so, and I think what you're sort of starting to get at there, Russell, is the link between predeterminism and free will.
00:15:49.000I think it is important that people have free will.
00:15:52.000We have to have free will to have moral accountability, and we do have moral accountability.
00:15:58.000In terms of all those other things that you've talked about there, I think you're absolutely right in that independent media is available, we can actually get video from people on the ground, we can assess that, and we can go by the quality of the evidence.
00:16:15.000Now some ideas might seem far out, but where is the evidence for those ideas?
00:16:20.000And it's that, as C.S. Lewis said, we need to follow the evidence Wherever it leads.
00:16:26.000But I agree with you completely that I think we're in a transition stage at the moment.
00:16:32.000So in the past, it's been considered unscientific to believe in transcendence, unscientific to believe in God, unscientific to believe in creation.
00:16:46.000But I think that's changing fundamentally now, because in the past we knew much less than we do now.
00:16:52.000I remember when I started to learn science, probably 40 years ago now, the amount of knowledge was really quite limited.
00:16:58.000Now we know so much more about so many things, and I would actually contend now quite strongly that it is scientifically very difficult to defend atheism.
00:17:12.000In the past, when we knew less about science, people used to say, well, we don't know how that happened, so probably God did that bit.
00:17:21.000That's what's called the God of the gaps idea.
00:17:25.000And this has been totally consigned to history by the emergence of greater levels of understanding and a more refined, detailed understanding of science.
00:17:38.000And now it is so improbable that what we see occurred through naturalistic terms and pure probabilistic terms, I actually think it is scientifically inconsistent to take an atheist view now, as we move on to the god of knowledge.
00:18:21.000Just before I go on Russell, I just want to predicate this actually because there's a big cultural difference here between the United Kingdom and the United States.
00:18:29.000Now in the United Kingdom, people don't really think about this in churches and in Christian circles.
00:18:35.000If you go to a church, you could go, I've been going to church for decades and I don't think anyone Maybe a few people because they know I'm interested in science, but basically people don't take an interest.
00:18:47.000Famous British physicist John Polkinghorne, professor of physics, went from being a professor of physics to being a vicar in the Church of England.
00:18:55.000And he said once in 10 years in the Church of England in his parish, no one asked him any scientific questions.
00:19:01.000It's just not an issue in the United Kingdom.
00:19:04.000But in the United States, it's a huge issue.
00:19:07.000Where people take a particular stance on creation and they almost elevate this to a doctrinal status.
00:19:15.000Now, this is not what you might call an article of faith or a salvation issue.
00:19:21.000It's perfectly possible to have a wide range of issues from what might be called young earth creationism to old earth creationism and theistic evolution.
00:19:31.000In my view, all of those are completely consistent with different interpretations of scripture.
00:19:37.000What I'm keen not to do is to offend people who have a particular view and think that particular view is important.
00:19:45.000And of course, their view is important.
00:19:47.000But the way I look at it is the vast majority of science is based on an empirical understanding of the world.
00:19:55.000So having predicated that, to get back to my original example...
00:19:58.000In the beginning, God created the heavens and earth.
00:20:01.000So there was a big bang creation event, in my view, about 14.7 billion years ago, round about then.
00:20:08.000That's when most physicists think it happened.
00:20:10.000Now, at that point, at that point in time, Physicists tell us that the universe was phenomenally massive and phenomenally small, probably smaller than an atom to begin with.
00:20:21.000But before that singularity occurred, there was no matter, energy, space or time.
00:20:29.000All matter, energy, space or time came into existence at that point.
00:20:35.000Therefore, what caused the universe, by definition, cannot predate the universe.
00:20:41.000There must be a cause of the universe which is external to Matter, energy, space or time.
00:20:47.000Now a lot of physicists don't like that idea and they're now jiggling around with ideas of faith, which are ideas of faith, like a multiverse for which there's no evidence because by definition we can't know what's outside our universe.
00:21:00.000So a lot of scientists are aware of the theistic implications of that and are trying to sort of get out of it.
00:21:09.000And the universe that that gave rise to is one which was needed to evolve over a period of time.
00:21:17.000So, for example, that had to expand out the way at a particular rate.
00:21:22.000Now, if that expanded too quickly, then all the matter in the universe would just fly apart and you wouldn't get the formation of galaxies and the formation of stars.
00:21:32.000But if it didn't fly out fast enough, compared to the mass and the electromagnetic forces in it, then it would fly out a little bit, then clump back in again into a big crunch, and we would have no universe.
00:21:44.000And it turns out that the balance between the electromagnetic forces, the momentum of this and the mass, has to be fine-tuned to one part in 10 to the 55. The probability of that happening just the right amount.
00:22:00.000So that's one with 55 noughts after it.
00:22:04.000Now, if you take a coin and you make a pile of coins all over the continental United States, we'd have 2p coins or whatever coins they have in the States, 5 or 10 cent coins.
00:22:18.000And then you pile that pile all the way up to the moon.
00:22:23.000And then you do that on several million other United States.
00:22:29.000Now, if you get one of those coins and put a red dot in it and chuck it into that pile, remember this pile goes all the way to the moon, and I say, right Russell, pick out that coin, and you just happen to pick out that coin with the red paint on it, then the chances of that are 1 in 10 to the 40. And they're the sort of probability that I'm going to
00:23:00.000have to stop you there, John, because we're moving into territory that YouTube would like to get all over, I'm sure you know how that goes.
00:23:06.000So click the link in the description to join us for the rest of this conversation.
00:23:10.000Before that countdown ends, click the link right now.
00:23:14.000We're going to be talking about extraordinary stuff like the We're going to be talking about George Orwell.
00:23:18.000How many of you have been looking at that picture there in the background thinking, when's he going to mention George Orwell?
00:23:22.000When's he going to mention George Orwell?
00:23:23.000We're going to be talking about Trump, news media, autism, vaccines and so much more.
00:24:04.000Nevertheless, what's very striking is when you're talking about scripture, my kind of still somewhat intact, cynical, sceptical mind says, Yeah, but if you're saying that in Isaiah these predictions of Christ are made,
00:24:21.000and in Daniel these predictions of Christ are made, and way back in Genesis and even Enoch, if you want to get non-canonical, that these predictions of Christ are made, it's sort of possible that people that wrote the Gospels those few decades after the life of the historical figure of Christ,
00:24:40.000that it's quite possible that they Deliberately concocted those correlatives in order to fulfill prophecies that they would be familiar with as devotees of that scripture themselves, scripture that they were often referencing.
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00:25:57.000What comes to my mind when you enter into sort of the mathematics of the bizarre, John, let's call it, the sort of Texas red coin analogy, is that what you're ultimately saying, if you ask me...
00:26:12.000Analogous to what you previously said, that prior to this molecular moment 14.7 billion years ago, there is no energy, matter, space or time.
00:26:24.000And what is recurrent through scripture is the...
00:26:30.000Allusion, rather than the description for such a thing would be impossible, of entities and states of beingness that are beyond our comprehension, are beyond our instruments of measurement, be they sensorial or amplifications of those sensual instruments through various Renaissance technology and what's been extrapolated from them,
00:26:56.000that We are at some point forced, whether scientifically or theologically, to enter into the faith state knowing that we have a hardware problem, that the human being has a limited capacity for understanding.
00:27:13.000And what do I find in Scripture when I countenance that notion is the phrase,"...the peace that passeth all understanding." That when I open myself to belief, when I say, even though on some level I can never make sense of the idea that God,
00:27:32.000after an Old Testament's worth of hectoring and punishing and sacrifice and symbol and prophecy and forewarning, eventually comes God, comes God's self in human form to experience human life and to somehow, I have to try to find a way, John, of...
00:27:53.000Delineating or espousing, inauguring energetic states and frequencies that are impossible without the kind of helix and fractal alchemy of God and man, fully human, fully divine, being incepted, being conceived of, being actualised.
00:28:18.000And in this figure of Christ, when I sort of say, alright, I'm gonna, like what my teacher says, believe, receive, obey, abide.
00:28:27.000You know, that believe is the first step.
00:28:29.000The rational mind cannot do it, will not do it, will not say...
00:28:35.000I'll believe, you know, and it's only actually in Scripture, in particular, John, in a book like Acts, you know, where I think, like, what's going on there?
00:28:43.000How come these people, at the end of Luke, at the end of John, the beginning of Acts, there's this, just something happens that changes the world forever.
00:29:54.000That's the update on the Deuteronomic is not just love thy neighbour, but love everyone.
00:30:01.000And not just love them as you reckon they might like to be loved, but as I have loved you.
00:30:06.000It's like burst open the seed of the self to that ordinary, botanical, horticultural miracle of the growth of the seed.
00:30:16.000One of the most consistent New Testament metaphors, and one of the metaphors that we'd find in any agricultural faith, I'm sure, that burst open and let the seed die.
00:31:06.000You've talked already of the distinction between British and American Christianity and it struck me, John, that the reason perhaps British Christianity is not inquisitive in the manner that American Christianity is is because That British Christianity is inert, because Britain has no empirical, no sort of imperial project anymore.
00:31:31.000Britain is a dead state, inert now, is an inert tangent to American colonial power.
00:31:37.000America is still a burgeoning and priapic force, and therefore...
00:31:43.000Their matters of dominion are engaged at a heightened level in what's going to be in power.
00:31:49.000Is it going to be Luciferian false post-enlightenment power?
00:31:52.000Or is it going to be military, rational, material power?
00:32:40.000And the way that you were trying to put that into words is fascinating because you've got this idea, you've got this spiritual belief.
00:32:53.000We're trying to share this idea, but it is so incomprehensible, so miraculous, so beyond our ability to understand it, that you end up with these analogies which all seem incredible, but totally inadequate.
00:33:11.000Anyone who understands this in any depth feels that.
00:33:14.000I think you mentioned there There's a tension to things as well.
00:33:20.000The idea of human beings' ability to understand things, and if that is limited.
00:33:27.000Now, Martin Rees, the previous astronomer royal, says that human ability to understand things is intrinsically limited, and they'll never fully understand the universe.
00:33:38.000Now, whether that's true or not, we don't know.
00:33:40.000It's certainly true that we have limited ability to understand spiritual things.
00:33:45.000As Christians, we believe completely in the Holy Trinity, but I really couldn't.
00:33:49.000I've heard many people give analogies of that, but these are things we can't explain, and that's reassuring to know that there's things about God that we can't explain.
00:34:00.000But I think it's important to realize that intellectual pursuits can lead people in the right direction.
00:34:07.000C.S. Lewis, for example, basically reasoned himself into faith.
00:34:12.000But ultimately, the Gospels say, unless you come to Christ as a little child, you don't come at all.
00:34:18.000So ultimately, you just put your hand up and say, Daddy, please.
00:34:22.000But sometimes you can get to that point via processes of thinking about it.
00:34:29.000The cross-cultural links between the United States and the United Kingdom, for example, in this area of creation.
00:34:35.000And a lot of that actually goes back to historical things.
00:34:39.000So in the States, they had this thing, the Scopes trial, the monkey trial, where there was a big debate about whether evolution should be taught in schools or not.
00:34:47.000So it's become part of American culture where it isn't part of English culture.
00:34:52.000I don't think it's necessarily a lack of curiosity on behalf of the British, although we do suffer from chronic curiosity disorder.
00:35:10.000Bryan Canyon University is an unusual place to get educated, a place that adheres to the values of scripture rather than the crazy values of our time.
00:35:18.000Just glance at our show, on any day of the week you'll see its madness.
00:35:22.000I'm bringing you an invitation to get educated at Grand Canyon University as well as lovingly and incredibly a message of peace and goodwill from Grand Canyon University this season.
00:35:34.000They remind us that the angel said to Luke in 2.10, Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.
00:35:41.000Jesus came into the world to save humanity and change the world again.
00:35:46.000Christmas is a time for serving others, not serving ourselves, giving of our spirit and loving as Christ loves us.
00:35:53.000Those values seem abstract and alien today.
00:35:55.000If you're considering further or higher education, consider Graham Canyon University and get an education in Christ, even if the subjects go beyond Christ, although nothing goes beyond Christ, actually.
00:36:07.000Merry Christmas from Grand Canyon University.
00:36:10.000Sometimes I feel that there are latent fields beneath what can be discerned that have characteristics, otherwise we wouldn't be able to sort of even make stereotypical, let alone archetypical, diagnoses of, you know, an Italian, a French person, the Latin American temperament, the American South.
00:36:32.000All these things have some sort of tombra to them, and I suppose relativistic and rational.
00:36:37.000A praise of that would be, oh, well, that's somehow been inculcated, but they would say the same thing about ethics and morality, whereas C.S. Lewis is, in a sense, the sort of tip of the spear for me when, in my own wrestling with C.S. Lewis, let alone the subject of C.S. Lewis's own grapple,
00:36:57.000is that he's talking about You know what good is, and you know what worship is, and you know what sacrifice is, and you know what it is when you've done wrong.
00:37:08.000And like when you read, who's this sort of the American Manhattan pastor that sort of somewhat took on a somewhat Suez Lewis type mantle?
00:37:18.000Tim, he's like, do you know who I mean?
00:38:23.000You know, when I hear, like, say, an atheist that I like and admire, like, say, Ricky Gervais saying, I don't need a God to tell me not to murder, that's not the argument.
00:38:52.000And I'm reading at the moment at the recommendation of Jordan Peterson, Mercier Eliard's book, The Sacred and the Profane.
00:39:03.000He's talking about without the sacred, we have homogeneity of space.
00:39:12.000That all things are not just An endless outpouring of space, gently referring to the earlier part of our conversation and the rules of the universe emerging from that explosion.
00:39:44.000Without the concept of the sacred, mankind will continually revert to sacralising either the biographical or the rational.
00:39:57.000And the examples Eliard used is, like, you'll look back to the place where you fell in love, or you'll create your own personal theology in the absence of a theology.
00:40:09.000By the way as well, John, I'm not saying let's choose God because if we don't choose God then look at all the chaos.
00:40:28.000Like, you see, like, there is this sort of...
00:40:30.000You know, the problem with the Bible, if I may be so bold, is you have to move between poetry, history, philosophy, continually, and you're sort of not clear what...
00:40:44.000Like, you know, because I've seen, like, very clever atheists say, well, you know, even when you're looking at the book of Genesis, why does it not, why does it sort of, you know, we know that the stars preceded the heaven and the earth because the, you know, the component parts of our material reality came from stars.
00:41:00.000We, inverted commas, know that, or at least that's how it appears when looking at the way that various elements are formed in the furnaces of stars itself are sort of bizarre and magical.
00:41:13.000So I wonder how you reconcile the observable and demonstrable inaccuracies of Scripture.
00:41:21.000And Ashela's asking, have I asked about the Shroud of Turin yet?
00:41:23.000I've seen that video on Ashela, and we will be talking to John Campbell about that.
00:41:28.000If you haven't seen that video yet, go watch it now on YouTube for all my misgivings about YouTube.
00:41:34.000John Campbell is one of the people that uses it most elegantly.
00:41:37.000But for now, John, I wonder how you move around.
00:41:39.000When something is plainly not true, or plainly not true scientifically or inaccurate, or what about when saying it's at odds with our contemporary morality, with sexuality, the rights of various people to be in same-sex partnerships, all of that stuff.
00:42:16.000Well, I mean, the idea, one idea there, this is the Hugh Ross reasons to believe idea, is that the scripture, the Holy Spirit there who wrote that, the witness to that event, was hovering on the surface of the deep.
00:42:32.000So that account was written from the perspective of an observer on the surface of the earth.
00:42:40.000And the idea is that there will be a lot of debris in space, a lot of density in the atmosphere, and that the stars will only become visible at that period of time.
00:42:52.000But actually, if you look at Genesis, the first two, three chapters of Genesis really I think probably the best interpretation is a guy called John Walton, and he says that this is basically a temple story, the way that God built a temple, because eventually he would come into this temple.
00:43:10.000So what we have to realize is that the scriptures were written by human authors in a particular time, in a particular place, and in a particular culture.
00:43:19.000Now, it is our job to try and understand their cultural background, their cultural river, rather than try and pose ours on them.
00:43:29.000So, when Genesis was written, okay, the order in Genesis, if you allow for the fact that the stars became visible on the third day, is roughly the right order of the way things that happened, roughly.
00:43:42.000Certainly closer than other creation accounts in other religions.
00:43:47.000But the people writing that had no concept of science.
00:43:52.000So I think it's unreasonable for us to try and deduce any science from that.
00:44:00.000We have to put ourselves in the mind of the individual.
00:44:03.000And you're right, a lot of scripture is clearly analogous, is clearly poetic.
00:44:10.000Think of the Song of Songs, for example, the beautiful love poetry.
00:44:15.000In that, we have to try and work out what genre it is and interpret it accordingly.
00:44:24.000But Alistair Beggar, a British preacher who works in the States, he said the main things are the plain things and the plain things are the main things.
00:44:32.000So in other words, there's a lot of peripheries, but the main things...
00:45:27.000Some things are culturally determined.
00:45:31.000But other things are not culturally determined.
00:45:33.000So if you look at the early believers in the Book of Acts, wondering which part of the Old Testament law they should adhere to.
00:45:44.000So it was clear they didn't have to adhere to the dietary law, but they should abstain from sexual immorality and from things strangled and from eating blood.
00:45:58.000So, some things are carried on, some things are culturally determined, other things are absolute, and there is some legitimate disagreement which camp things would fall into, but we have to be aware of the risk that I am likely to interpret things in a way which is convenient to me, in a way which is convenient to my lifestyle, so we have to strive for the objectivity.
00:46:27.000Of what the scripture is saying and not interpret that in the light of what I would like to be true to give me the lifestyle I would like.
00:46:34.000In other words, the scripture has to dictate the lifestyle.
00:46:37.000The lifestyle does not dictate the interpretation of the scripture.
00:46:40.000I think they will be some of the guidelines I would use, but it's not an easy field.
00:46:46.000But remember that the main things are the plain things and the plain things are the main things.
00:46:50.000I've never heard that before, and I will remember that.
00:46:52.000And in fact, the idea of scriptural utility is dealt with in the Gospels through the dynamic between Christ and the Sadducees and Pharisees.
00:47:08.000Whether it's John the Baptist or Christ, you feel like what you're dealing with, and then Paul and the apostles, is like, how do we deal with this now?
00:47:17.000What is it to prepare for his coming kingdom?
00:47:21.000What is it to deal with this perplexing, complex, and confusing idea that his kingdom...
00:47:31.000That we're dealing with some kind of atemporal, aspatial reality that's going to converge and collide.
00:47:41.000I'm thinking about this in Erdinger's book on the engravings of William Blake in the Book of Job.
00:47:53.000He talks about, like, Blake illustrates various aspects of the story of Job, and they're, like, really lovely.
00:48:00.000Then being engravings, John, they're real, you know, sort of elegant and simple, beautiful starscapes and sort of various depictions of Job in his sort of torment.
00:48:10.000And then, like, towards the end, there's the depictions of the behemoth and the Leviathan, who Yahweh, who this being a Jungian text...
00:48:20.000Albeit based on engravings by Blake, Yahweh looks like Job.
00:48:26.000So it looks like an encounter between some sort of accessible higher self and some manifest self.
00:48:35.000But this thing that was in the analysis that's been on my mind ever since really...
00:48:40.000It's been from Erdinger's commentary where he says, this is the behemoth that I have made as I made thee.
00:48:53.000And in that I get the same sort of wonder and...
00:48:58.000Bafflement that I get from my very, very limited interaction with, say, the Gitas and other Vedic texts, where through images one is seduced, led into a sort of a psychic space that's somehow beyond reason.
00:49:18.000And contemplating the qualities of the behemoth and how that might psychically play out, it feels to me like it's dealing with corporealism and the leviathan as if it's dealing with a kind of at-depth reptilian limbic system instinctualism.
00:49:36.000And then he says, there's this indication, John, that we are...
00:49:43.000We're manifesting ourselves, God, through continually.
00:49:48.000And why would God, why would Christ say, you know, I have sent you as he sent me?
00:49:56.000Why would Christ say, love one another as I have loved you?
00:50:02.000If there were no, inverted commas, meaning to it, no value to it, and in this Jungian analysis, which I suppose lingers in the framing of, obviously, psychiatry, but a type of psychiatry that has a greater expanse,
00:50:18.000obviously, than his common counterpoint of Freud, Jung remaining open to the mystic in the way that he does, is that We are his temple, and as his temple, we have to become a dwelling place for God.
00:50:37.000In our agency, or perhaps within what you earlier remarked upon when it comes to predeterminism versus volition, That we are, as I suppose even Gospel John's vine analogy suggests, we are flowing forth from that vine tended by the Heavenly Father, the root or the branch or the trunk.
00:51:09.000If we choose to be, if we can conduct that kind of wave particle collapse into Christ consciousness, and I don't mean that in a new age way, I mean as a branch of Christ, then we are.
00:52:00.000Again, fascinating to see you struggling with these concepts, Russell.
00:52:05.000I mean, the book of Job is very difficult to understand.
00:52:09.000I mean, we've got Leviathan, which is the sea creature, and the behemoth, which is the land creature, and many people have put different interpretations on what they are.
00:52:21.000But the Book of Job, in a sense, is an attempt to explain suffering, isn't it?
00:53:21.000That human beings are unusual, that they are exceptional, that they have the ability to understand the transcendent, that they have, if you like, without veering into blasphemy, some godlike attributes.
00:53:37.000There again, there's a limit on that on this earth.
00:53:39.000That was the fruit in the tree in the Garden of Eden.
00:56:11.000This, I think, is going to be a game changer for all of us.
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00:57:10.000He was a staunch socialist earlier in life, wasn't he?
00:57:13.000The reason he's there is in the United Kingdom now, there's a whole range of things you're not allowed to talk about, not just on YouTube, just generally.
00:57:23.000And, you know, George, you know, there's a great hat in America, M-O-F-A, make all world fiction again.
00:57:31.000And that's what we'd like to do, because unfortunately we see some of his, what I would describe as prophecies coming true, and they have to be seen as a warning.
00:57:41.000One of those prophecies, you know, one of the most famous phrases in all world created so many neologisms and ideas that entered into our discourse and images and, as you say, prophecies.
00:57:58.000It's something I've discussed a few times now, the famous, if you want an image of humanity's future, envisage a boot stamping on a human face forever.
00:58:08.000Lately I've started to contrast that with the idea of man made in God's image.
00:58:16.000And when you are stamping on a human face, you are stamping on the hallmark of God's presence in us.
00:58:25.000I had a good conversation, John, with Tucker Carlson in which he said that Orwell was familiar enough with Soviet communism to make clear that that was what he was talking about, if it was his intention to critique that.
00:58:45.000And Tucker offered the idea that Orwell could have been offering us, in those sort of dystopic prophetic books, The idea that social democracy has a tendency towards totalitarianism, although the reason I asked whether Orwell was an atheist at the beginning...
00:59:09.000It seems that part of globalism is an attempt to annihilate God and then lay claim to the abilities that that God is typically endowed with, even if you're offering a sort of a rational appraisal of God rather than a faith-based communion with God.
00:59:29.000I wonder what you think about that idea, that sort of Orwell is not just talking about Soviet communism and what it became, is talking about how social democracies might incline towards totalitarianism.
00:59:44.000And given what we've experienced in the last sort of, you know, five, ten years, certainly in the sort of pandemic and post-pandemic era, it seems that totalitarianism...
00:59:52.000Was, you know, and is in our country, being brought about not by 20th century style charismatic strongmen, as the critiques of Trump suggested, but in fact by a kind of technocratic Orwell-esque, Orwellian Huxley-esque, sort of Kafka-esque Kind of, you know, managed tyranny where we're sort of all doped up on Soma, baffled, uncertain about what's real and what to believe in and what to say.
01:00:23.000And I wonder what you think of the significance is of Orwell's writing with regard to social democracy rather than just sort of state communism.
01:00:31.000And the sort of poignance and significance of the boot stamping on the human face and whether or not you consider that to be a sort of a An image of desacralisation and the profaning of our relationship with God.
01:00:46.000Yeah, I think there's a few answers to that.
01:00:49.000Whenever you want to deliberately destroy humans and to mutilate humans, that is a problem related to evil, because humans are made in God's image.
01:01:03.000I worked in Khmer refugee camps in the early 80s, and all the people there had been through the killing fields.
01:01:11.000You know, they'd all seen relatives beaten to death in front of them.
01:01:16.000By definition, they had an escape that come overland into the Thai Khmer border.
01:01:21.000And some of the atrocities, I'm not going to go through them now, they're too appalling, but I've talked to missionaries who worked there and read missionaries who worked there, who knew the Cambodians in great detail.
01:01:33.000And some of these atrocities, these mutilations, they said can only be explained in terms of the demonic.
01:01:39.000So whenever you deliberately destroy humans, that is attempting to destroy the image of God in humans, whether that is crushing people physically, physically disabling them, physically killing them, physically mutilating them, whether it's abuse of people even after death, whether it's a psychological crushing, to me that's got a spiritual component because you are attacking God's workmanship.
01:02:07.000In terms of Orwell, of course, he was initially writing because of his grave disillusion with the way that things had worked out in the Soviet era.
01:02:18.000Stalin, of course, was the pig, the leader of the pigs.
01:02:27.000Yes, he was disillusioned, outraged, just totally peed off with the fact that he'd been misled in earlier life.
01:02:37.000Believing that this was a possible utopian solution, you know, he'd had various theses, antithesis and synthesis and communism was this advanced synthesis that was somehow where humans went to be and he was so disillusioned with that, so disillusioned with their humanist ideas that he wrote his books to protest against that and to point out how bad it was.
01:03:03.000I think he realised that this was a tendency to You might say a weakness, predisposition in human hierarchical power, that power is inevitably going to be abused.
01:03:17.000I think he was warning about something.
01:03:19.000Yes, he was having a whinge, if you like, about the Soviet era, but he realized that this is an intrinsic risk in humanity.
01:04:26.000So there is a real risk that the Western world could sink into a multi-generation dystopian situation with control over food, with control over information, with control over food.
01:05:08.000And when I see control over information, When I see people trying to control healthcare, when I see people trying to control food supply, you control these things.
01:05:44.000The psychopathic group will treat humanity like pieces on a chessboard.
01:05:48.000So you're as much used to me as your utilitarian output is.
01:05:53.000You know, you're to be used, you're to be not used, you're to be disposed of.
01:05:56.000Actually, I couldn't care less whether you live or die as long as you're useful.
01:06:00.000But you get some people that are actually anti-humanity.
01:06:02.000You know, they are actually evil and seek the destruction of human beings.
01:06:07.000And I think Orwell was warning us about that.
01:06:10.000And when you can combine that with warnings from Scripture as well, we do see that times, dark times, are going to be ahead.
01:06:19.000But we also know that God will cut those days short, and God will put limits on the amount of evil that can be perpetrated on the people that he loves that are made in his image.
01:06:32.000Dr. John, the Shout of Turin video you made recently fascinates me because when it gets into relics and non-canonical documents, I start to wonder what direction, you know, like miracles and this thing happening, was it Guadalupe and this thing happened there and all that, you know, these appearances of the Holy Mother and appearances of saints and lords and all of that stuff.
01:07:02.000I don't mean to be blasphemous or dismissive at all.
01:07:06.000But when, like, with relics and stuff, it feels like, what is this paraphernalia?
01:07:10.000And so, like, when I was younger, I would have thought something like the Shroud of Turin.
01:07:59.000But in Protestantism, there's a risk that we kind of throw the baby out with the bathwater.
01:08:04.000So I was quite young when, I think it was 1978, when the Shroud of Turin Research Project was there, and there was a lot of publicity about it at the time.
01:08:13.000But then, of course, the radiocarbon dating came out that disproved it.
01:08:21.000But now, that carbon dating has now been devalidated for quite a few reasons that we could go into.
01:08:30.000If you look at the Shroud itself, Millions of people have been buried in millions of shrouds, but that is the only one with an image on it.
01:08:40.000Now, I'm not saying this is the Shroud of Christ.
01:08:45.000I'm saying, though, I find it consistent with what could have been the Shroud of Christ.
01:08:50.000Personally, I think it probably was, but of course we can't prove it.
01:08:55.000But this image, the image that is on it...
01:09:14.000One is it is the image of the crucified Lord Jesus Christ himself, or it's the image of another crucified man mocked up to look like Jesus Christ.
01:09:26.000But both horrific when you look at them.
01:09:29.000But the image is completely unique in that it is the only shroud with an image.
01:09:36.000So no one knows how that image got there.
01:09:52.000And as well as that, the image contains three-dimensional information.
01:09:56.000So if you put it under this thing that they developed for looking at the depth of craters on planets, this VPA analyzer, You actually get three-dimensional information out of it.
01:10:06.000Now, if we take a two-dimensional picture of you and then put it under this three-dimensional analyser, you'll just get gobbledygook.
01:10:14.000So we've got this completely unique image on a shroud which does depict the accurate pathology of a crucified man as specified in the Gospel.
01:10:26.000So the scourging is the Roman style of scourging.
01:10:30.000The crucifixion marks are the Roman crucifixion marks.
01:10:34.000The wound in the side is as described, which seems to be a standard way that Roman soldiers had of killing people and making sure people were dead.
01:11:18.000There's a lot of things that add up about it and it really is A mysterious object, but even if it's not the genuine, even if it is not the Shroud of Christ, it teaches us so much about the nature of crucifixion and the suffering.
01:11:33.000It makes it a very poignant document to study and it's just remarkably interesting.
01:11:44.000We can't be definitive about it, but personally, I think there's so many types of information from so many different aspects of study that, personally, I think it's much more likely than not to be genuine.
01:12:00.000It's a bit like what we were talking about before with creation.
01:12:03.000There's so many things that are just right, and they add up.
01:12:06.000And the probability of one thing being just right is maybe one in a hundred, then another one is one in a hundred, multiply by another one in a hundred.
01:12:13.000And by the time you've got about a dozen or twenty of factors together, The probability of them all occurring together becomes massively improbable.
01:12:32.000It makes me recognise again that there's a state of submission, which you just referred to earlier as humility, and this is the right word, that is kind of induced by standing on the edge of this cosmos, on the edge of this order, on the edge of this constellation of...
01:12:54.000The patterns observable in the unknowable that somehow come to their climax in the cross and again and again this sort of almost the impossibility of it not being true.
01:13:08.000It makes sense when I think of some of the people that have participated in Bringing Me to Faith, John, the most likely story is that it happened.
01:13:17.000It's the most likely story is that it happened.
01:13:19.000I think there's one other thing to say about the Shroud Russell.
01:13:22.000It's, you know, the first photograph of the Shroud was taken by a guy called Seconder Peer in 1898, and he realised the image was a negative.
01:13:32.000Before that, there was no photography, so people didn't know it was a negative.
01:13:35.000And then, as we said, the 3D information, the biochemistry on the blood, the biochemistry on the Shroud, All of these things could only be realised after 1898. Before that, people We're aware of the image.
01:13:56.000In fact, it probably goes back to what's called the image of Edessa before the Crusader period.
01:14:03.000But it's only in recent times that the science has been available to analyse it properly.
01:14:09.000And I just wonder, just me thinking out loud, is this a message that That God has left for our times, because it could only be understood in the scientific times.
01:14:21.000And the way things are going at the moment, there's a lot of cause for concern.
01:14:27.000I really wonder if we are heading into what might be called the end times, at least periods of tribulation.
01:14:36.000And I get the feeling that this shroud is a scientific message to our time, because it couldn't have been fully understood in earlier times.
01:14:45.000Now it can, and it just makes you wonder.
01:14:49.000It's the sort of thing God would do, isn't it?
01:14:54.000That is a sort of move that God would pull, is to leave some artefact.
01:15:39.000When the Roman Empire was there, or the Babylonian Empire was there, the Aztecs were happily doing their own thing in South America, weren't they?
01:15:45.000The Inuit would be happily living in igloos, or the Aborigines would be happily walking around Australia.
01:15:54.000We have the modality for global control that simply didn't exist before.
01:16:02.000So the possibility of these global events that are described in things like the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation You can now see them coming.
01:19:33.000I'm just saying that I didn't imagine that one day that you'd be telling me main things are the plain things and the plain things are the main things, you know.
01:19:51.000And, you know, I'm not going to breach any confidentialities, Russell, but you have helped me in moments of difficulty, and I appreciate it.
01:19:58.000I want to say publicly, I appreciate that.