In this episode, Russell Brand sits down with Callie Means, a former employee of Big Food, to discuss her new role at the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), the agency responsible for administering the nation's health care system.
00:03:33.000If you're watching us on YouTube, we're only going to be there for 15 minutes.
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00:03:53.000If the world of academia, politics and big food were ever to have a Justin Bieber, it would be this man.
00:04:00.000A fresh-faced youngster that emerged seemingly from nowhere to become one of the most influential voices in American health.
00:04:09.000I'm talking about Cali Means, whose ideas and policies changed the conversation Not only in America, but across the world.
00:04:16.000When it comes to the economics of health and the ecology of sickness that is required to maintain control of America, American lives and American finances.
00:04:30.000In some extraordinary miracle of alchemy, in some sort of cosmic ordained event, Cali Means has moved from the periphery To the very heart of this establishment as a result of the Maha movement, the rise of Bobby Kennedy and the victory of Donald Trump in the recent election.
00:04:47.000So Callie Means, who I used to speak to a couple of years ago, as an interesting ingenue and writer and expert.
00:04:54.000But former employee of Big Food, he worked at Coca-Cola, is now like talking to someone who, praise God, could be integrally involved in creating a better, new, healthier America.
00:05:07.000What an honour it is to introduce Callie Means.
00:05:15.000Man, like they do say to men in the position you find yourself in now, well, now the hard work begins in earnest.
00:05:23.000What are the challenges that you imagine will be faced?
00:05:27.000Because even though we have the near miracle of a man like Marty Makkari as head of the FDA, an outspoken opponent of the policies that the government implemented during the pandemic era, or a man like Jay Bhattacharya, One of the writers and signatories of the Great Barrington Declaration,
00:05:44.000who was smeared and attacked at Stanford University for saying things we now know to be true, and evidently with his rise to the head of the NIH, that's the research arm of the health institutions that are responsible for American health, with these men rising into power, with men like Aaron Seary addressing some of the issues around medicines and certain near-mandated medications that you might receive in your arm, but you might find up...
00:06:11.000And most notably, I would say, yourself being in a position of influence.
00:06:17.000How do you think the ideas and power and motivation that we all experienced in the Maha movement will be impacted by the fact that now there is access to the levers of real power?
00:06:30.000What challenges are you experiencing and imagining that you will face coming forward?
00:07:09.000I mean, it's much larger than me, but You, you know, we're talking about these issues for years, the corporate capture, the incentives of our healthcare system to profit from when we're sick, just like the military-industrial complex profits from more wars.
00:07:23.000You know, the defining issue, whether it's in Europe or whether it's in the U.S. or throughout the developed world, I think it's the defining historical issue of our time is the co-option of our institutions.
00:07:33.000You know, the American people want to thrive.
00:07:50.000I think there was a spiritual connection that went from independent media to the top of the national conversation.
00:07:55.000It was really a grassroots movement for people that listen to you, people that listen to Tucker, Joe Rogan, and, you know, even podcasts on the left.
00:08:02.000They're talking about this issue, issues for years.
00:08:06.000And what my big What I'm really thinking about right now is let's keep it simple.
00:08:13.000What's happening with Bobby and with Jay and with Marty and with Dr. Oz, with Jim O'Neill, my friend who's going to be the Deputy Secretary, these are incredible picks and they're getting dragged into complexity.
00:08:25.000We were just talking before we came on.
00:08:27.000You know, in their heads, these pharma executives and the hospital executives, they don't want to profit from sick kids, but they have plausible deniability because the system is so complex and they don't have the full kind of authority to stop it.
00:08:39.000So all of these interests are now coming to bear.
00:08:42.000And I think what we need to do to help Bobby is keep it on that high level, aspirational, big themes that we talked about during the campaign.
00:09:02.000The NIH, as you said, the research arm, they dictate research and the standard of care throughout the world.
00:09:07.000And right now, 80% of those grants have conflicts of interest.
00:09:10.000Like literally the foundation of our care structure in the world, we transport it throughout the world in America, says that if you have heart disease, it's a statin issue.
00:09:19.000If you have obesity, you need ozempic.
00:09:21.000If you have depression, one size fits all, SSRIs.
00:09:25.000They recently did a psychiatry conference with the NIH and Harvard, and they could not find a psychiatrist who wasn't paid by SSRI makers.
00:09:31.000We have this one size fits all intervention-based system, and just get the conflicts out.
00:09:36.000Let's just actually figure out You know, whatever you think of vaccines, what they're doing to kids.
00:09:41.000Like, why are we hiding that research?
00:09:43.000Why are we hiding research on more personalized mental health solutions?
00:10:23.000Let's deliver wins for President Trump.
00:10:25.000And let's not get lost in the minutiae.
00:10:28.000You listed some pretty profound facts just there right off the bat.
00:10:31.00080% of studies have a conflict of interest in the current setup of the NIH. The FDA gets 75% of its funding, in certain areas at least, from corporations that it's meant to regulate.
00:10:44.000And whether it comes to matters of the head, mental illness, or the heart with the statin crisis, it seems that there's baked-in corruption across the board.
00:10:53.000Now, for years we've become used to the legacy media, attacking Donald Trump as a misanthrope, misogynist, criminal, racist, rapist, whatever words were available to prevent his assent.
00:11:04.000And I must confess that there were times where I was vulnerable to that pervasive propaganda.
00:11:11.000For a moment, if we look at the case of Bobby Kennedy, who, as you've just explained, is in charge of the largest government budget, or departmental budget at least, in world history, what do you think is the significance of the way that he is treated in soft propaganda outlets like SNL,
00:11:29.000late night talk shows, the constant mocking It's always in order to point out that he was a drug addict or That he left a dead whale
00:12:11.000And what interests, knowingly or otherwise, are being amplified by those soft propaganda entities?
00:12:19.000And what are the financial ties, might you imagine, Callie, that would mean that that flow of information would have the trajectory that it does?
00:13:24.000It's a heady time right now, and a really, I think, inspiring time, where Bobby is trying to summon the biggest experts in the world, people that were vehemently against him.
00:13:49.000And I think that's the core of what connected during the campaign.
00:13:52.000You know, 92% of deaths in America are chronic conditions, lifestyle conditions.
00:13:57.000As we've talked about and what the book's about, right?
00:13:59.000Heart disease, diabetes, Alzheimer's, which is called type 3 diabetes, highly related to metabolic dysfunction, obesity, even depression.
00:14:06.000These are all multifaceted and tied together.
00:14:10.000And what Bobby's talking about is why is 95% of our medical spending after people get sick on drugs and interventions to manage it and profit from it?
00:14:17.000How do we actually, you know, take a depressed child's take?
00:14:21.000And instead of giving them a quick SSRI and just putting them on that treadmill, figuring out if they're looking at the sun, figuring out if they're eating healthy food, figuring out if they're moving.
00:14:29.000We can incentivize those things with our medical system.
00:14:43.000Their funding, you watch Saturday Night Live, you see pharma ads.
00:14:47.000Pharma, as we've talked about time and time again, is the biggest contributor of ad dollars to corporate media.
00:14:52.000So it's just this clubby atmosphere of, oh, this whack job is talking about how these drugs aren't effective and how he's attacking science.
00:15:06.00050% of Harvard Med School's budget somehow touches pharma.
00:15:10.000You know, academic institutions and hospitals are the largest employer in the country, the hospital systems, when you add them all up, right?
00:15:18.000So these are big businesses that just make money and are fueled by Americans continue to get sick.
00:15:25.000So it's just fashionable to say how ridiculous it is for Bobby to be talking about these hippie concepts like healthy eating, as opposed to serious medicine like cutting people open or prescribing drugs.
00:15:36.000And that thought just permeates all, and it goes to just financial interests.
00:15:41.000The pharmaceutical industry is the largest funder of money to the media, to academic research, to medical organizations, to politicians themselves.
00:15:49.000As we talked about, they fund the regulatory agencies themselves.
00:15:52.000So it creates this immune response of the system to call Bobby a wacko for pointing out that 92% of deaths are chronic conditions.
00:16:00.000Which is, in and of itself, at a macro level, I think very evil.
00:16:19.000And if the people are on his side, and he continues to have our support, and frankly, President Trump, who I can tell you is hellbent on making this a legacy issue.
00:16:27.000He is absolutely, he wants this to be in the history books.
00:16:36.000It's pretty extraordinary, isn't it, to imagine that something as unifying, evident and obvious as the health of children could be subject to media attacks and propaganda.
00:16:53.000A unifying idea, if ever there was one, is the notion that our first duty is the protection of our kids.
00:17:00.000That's the function of all of us as parents, but as adults more broadly, not just from an emotional and sentimental perspective, but from a Gosh, even if you were to take the harshest, most evolutionary perspective imaginable, the assurance of the ongoing survival of our species would dictate that protecting children and their wellbeing would go beyond the kind of tribal dictates of contemporary politics.
00:17:25.000And it's very heartening to hear you say, Callie, that when policy is being discussed, it's not ideological and tribal, but based on true utility and the function of the agencies that you've outlined there.
00:17:37.000It's very curious to me, too, that Trump I have come to regard as a kind of American mystic.
00:17:44.000That America created this creature, this mystic prophet born of free market capitalism, entrepreneurialism, real estate building.
00:17:56.000Of course, if there were to be an American prophet born of the American imagination, he would have his name on the top of his towers.
00:18:06.000Of course, he would live on McDonald's and Coca-Cola, and like me, I'm sure you've chuckled at the image of Bobby Kennedy wolfing down sugar and salt and seed oils on that private plane flight.
00:18:21.000Politics must always go beyond the personal, and always go beyond the weaponizations of institutions, whether that's the judiciary or institutions within healthcare.
00:18:31.000It seems like, put plainly, America has grown accustomed to the profits and politics of sickness, and the profits and politics of war, that we've created such a warped ideology, presumably through sleepwalking,
00:18:47.000for surely no one would consciously do this, no human entity, certainly no godly entity, would deliberately create an economy That required sick children to sustain itself, yet thanks to the kind of conversations that you've started, I know that there's nothing more profitable to America than a sick child for life on a Zempick or some kind of Ritalin or whatever it is these days.
00:19:13.000That has two massive and powerful entities like Big Food and Big Pharma requiring sickness and the perpetuation of their products in order to succeed.
00:19:24.000And that's before you start looking at agriculture and the agricultural requirements.
00:19:27.000It's very difficult to implement policies that arrest that.
00:19:31.000And my concern is, Callie, That even with the incredible mandate that Trump has enjoyed, and even with the refined arguments that Bobby Kennedy is able to articulate, and even with the excellent team assembled around him, yourself, Aaron Siri, Jim O'Neill, Marty Makari, and obviously Jay Bhattacharya, there's still a sense that...
00:20:23.000A hitman, it appears, shot him in the morning outside the Hilton Midtown in New York.
00:20:30.000And he was actually a person that was talking about reform.
00:20:34.000You know, we don't know any of the circumstances of this tragic story.
00:20:38.000I think it does shed light in stepping away from that specific instance.
00:20:46.000Healthcare is the largest and fastest growing industry in the country.
00:20:49.000And there's something, again, I'm not implicating any one person, but there's something really, really dark about the incentives.
00:20:57.000And I don't think anyone really denies that.
00:20:59.000I mean, the pharmaceutical industry, the hospital industry, medical schools, insurance companies, all just demonstrably make more money when more Americans get sick.
00:21:08.000And they have, just by mathematical statements of how they fund the regulatory agencies themselves and the medical schools and the politicians, they've taken over our regulatory systems.
00:21:23.000I've met with a lot of Members of Congress and Senators, and they don't want to have sick kids, but always there's staffers slithering behind them.
00:21:32.000And those staffers, you know, just looking at what happens, they're interviewing for their next job for the pharmaceutical industry, the hospital industry, their insurance industry.
00:21:40.000With healthcare staffers, generally, there's just a revolving door.
00:21:43.000And, you know, I think it's every single FDA administrator the past 20 years has gone almost directly to pharma.
00:21:51.000You know, being in this world, and it might not be surprising, but it's still pretty shocking.
00:21:57.000You know, people are reaching out to me, and we're having conversations, and they're just making the direct argument that if we implement these policies that we all agree would make American children healthier, that it would be disastrous to jobs and disastrous to the economy.
00:22:13.000And I think what you have right now is a huge problem that we need to have a sustained national conversation about, quite frankly, which is that we have healthcare and the healthcare economy.
00:22:24.000The healthcare economy, which is the biggest part of the US economy, is completely antithetical to the health of Americans.
00:22:31.000I think what's so important and historical about this time with Donald Trump, and I think we all agree, whether you love him or hate him, this was a monumental election in American history.
00:22:43.000Is that, you know, we've got huge opportunity.
00:22:46.000I mean, you've got Elon, you've got all the warriors on independent media like you.
00:22:51.000I mean, going through Mar-a-Lago, it's a smarter, more impressive group of people and a more diverse group of people than any transition in American history.
00:23:09.000I think we can have a golden age, quite frankly, for pharmaceuticals and American healthcare.
00:23:14.000I mean, there's nothing wrong, per se, with the pharmaceutical industry.
00:23:17.000You know, we should have thriving innovation.
00:23:19.000One thing, you know, that we're really digging in on the FDA is like, startups and innovative companies are not happy with the FDA. The FDA puts up $1 billion barriers to any type of drug approval, basically at the behest of big pharma.
00:23:32.000The only drugs that are getting approved are You know, very non-innovative management techniques to profit from the chronic disease crisis.
00:23:39.000We actually have an absolutely shameful lack of innovation in cancer therapies or rare disease therapies.
00:24:03.000So there's actually this road to deregulate, to work with Ilan and Vivek at the Government Efficiency Office and get the red tape out of the way.
00:24:12.000To have innovation in pharma, and then flexibility where our healthcare dollars go, where it can absolutely go to drugs, but, you know, can Americans, if they are pre-diabetic, choose potentially to go to a food intervention to get a diet coach?
00:24:39.000We have to change the business model of the healthcare industry to stop profiting from when people are sick and start rewarding American thriving and health.
00:24:46.000We are going to cease to exist if that doesn't happen.
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00:26:05.000When occasionally a shaft of light penetrates the dark and sticky fugue that appears to have enveloped these agencies and institutions, there is a moment where you recognise that through legislation and redirection there could be an optimistic We're good to
00:26:37.000And therefore it is economically biased, the entire industry, towards the creation of vaccines and the near-mandating of vaccines and the scheduling of vaccines.
00:26:47.000And because in this one area there is not the requirement for clinical trialling that is as intrepid or as thorough as in the drug research.
00:26:57.000And when you say, like, Americans can be incentivized to live healthily, then in a proper and common sense version of American institutions and regulation, it will be possible for the same inspiration and same motivation to be applied at scale.
00:27:19.000American Pharmaceutical Research being, as you have said, Callie, deployed in areas of pioneering expertise in order to look into new realms of oncology, new realms of heart disease, new realms of health.
00:27:32.000What has to happen in order for that to take place is sort of pretty clear.
00:27:37.000So what prevents, do you suppose, Callie, on day one of A banning of advertising of big pharma companies on legacy media channels, a banning of clinical trials being funded in the way that they are, a banning of food using the kind of ingredients that you've basically taught the world we shouldn't be having in the kind of densities and in the normalized way that we have been up to now.
00:28:03.000You refer to kind of slithering backstage interest behind folks in the Senate and in Congress.
00:28:09.000What is the locust and location of these dark powers, and how does this new and emergent America attack it?
00:28:18.000So, I'll go to the previous how it worked, and I think Bobby and President Trump and their mandate can change this, but imagine FDA in a previous administration.
00:28:29.000If they even thought about touching or reviewing one chemical, these 10,000 chemicals in our food that aren't legal in any other country, they would be absolutely berated with letters from members of Congress saying, this is crazy, this is an attack on innovation, this is an attack on the farmers in my district.
00:28:45.000So that's where the fact that there's five pharma lobbyists and three food lobbyists for every single member of Congress comes in.
00:29:19.000So you can say you do something, but then the lawyers who are interviewed for their next job at Pharma inevitably deepen the administrations.
00:29:26.000And I believe, frankly, and this is obviously clear, there's corrupt incentives and people being paid within the department itself.
00:29:50.000I think Elon and Trump are the two Americans, two people in the world right now people are going to remember in history books in 50, 100 years.
00:30:00.000And the whole Elon philosophy of radical change, of firing 80% in the company, working better, of moving fast, I think in a weird way, actually thinking big might be better because we can have holistic conversations instead of getting the paper cuts on every single regulation.
00:30:16.000What I'm hoping can happen is that when you talk to the food industry, for instance, you ask them behind closed doors, are you happy?
00:30:24.000Do you think it's a good thing that demonstrably you make products that are less healthy in America, the exact same product you formulate for Europe?
00:30:31.000Is that a good thing that demonstrably we all agree it's less healthy in America?
00:30:36.000We asked them, is it good that we have so many chemicals in our food that we are not able to import a lot of our agriculture to Europe, which is the world's second largest market?
00:30:48.000So everyone kind of agrees that there's a problem.
00:30:51.000And I think potentially with Trump and RFK bringing light to this and bringing big thinking, You know, I'm optimistic we can get stakeholders together and actually figure out how to unwind some of this.
00:31:02.000And I will say, you know, this isn't on the food front.
00:31:06.000I mean, this is, they've held their hands with government to create a totally corrupt subsidy system, where right now, our third, excuse me, our fourth largest entitlement program goes Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and then SNAP. We'd spend $150 billion for, you know, food sustenance for lower-income Americans, 15% of Americans depend on this program.
00:31:25.000You know, it's a government failure too that 18% of that money, it's 18% now go to sugary drinks and that money is basically funding poison for lower income Americans to drive up healthcare costs and destroy the human capital of our population.
00:31:38.000You know, unwinding these structures Isn't just punitive to the food industry.
00:31:43.000We need to figure out a different subsidy system.
00:31:45.000We need to actually take responsibility, I think, for the government of what we've done with this broken subsidy system nobody likes.
00:31:52.000So I think if you can really actually have stakeholders, and the stakeholders like AG and like the food industry can actually see this as an opportunity to basically be dragged reluctantly to some change, but also behind closed doors, figure out a new system that actually works for stakeholders.
00:32:16.000I said this is why President Trump, who I... I was not on the train for President Trump in 2016, right?
00:32:23.000I think his election was the most important election in my lifetime by far.
00:32:27.000I think he's the most important figure in my lifetime because I've always said this.
00:32:30.000The executive spotlight on this issue, calling out the FDA or calling out these slithering people who try to sneak these regulations in, we just didn't have light on it before.
00:32:42.000So with the light President Trump and Bobby can show and these smart people that are being picked, we got to be strategic.
00:33:01.000Like, without even talking about vaccine, should we have data available on what the trials are or know if there haven't been trials?
00:33:08.000Should we, can we be able to generally support vaccines while also saying that it's a terrible incentive, as Aaron Siri points out, that there's complete immunity protection, and the second you get on the vaccine schedule, you have mandated government payments for this drug.
00:33:21.000For every American and enforcement for the government for them to take them.
00:33:25.000I mean, you can have two things at once and bringing these things in the open, they're unimpeachable arguments that I think are winning arguments.
00:33:33.000You can see how the simple economic arguments that might motivate getting people to join a gym in January so they pay their membership perpetually playing out at scale create a kind of chaos that if people are mandated or if it's just scheduled that they take certain vaccines it becomes kind of habitualized.
00:33:55.000If there is no clinical trial data available because of a lack of transparency That creates extraordinary systems.
00:34:02.000And I spoke to Jim O'Neill recently, not on air, and he's told me a couple of things I'd love to talk through with you.
00:34:11.000One, we touched on what you just briefly mentioned, 18% of the food stamp revenue ultimately going on sugary drinks.
00:34:20.000To him, do you feel that even if you were to take...
00:34:24.000Imagine if you were self-functioning in life, you know, Callie and Jim O'Neill and even me, if we were to sort of address that.
00:34:35.000You know, you don't want to deny people that cannot feed themselves access to means and nutrition.
00:34:43.000But surely what would be better is if they were eating...
00:34:51.000food, even that one idea, the impact that has on firstly powerful food lobbyists, big agriculture, you know, the kind of interest that ensure that the information you get on diabetes is somehow funded by the kind of people that put sugar and various the kind of interest that ensure that the information you get on diabetes is That's...
00:35:11.000Just that one issue would start to break apart the building blocks of centralised...
00:35:18.000The economy of American sickness would receive like an arrow to the heart.
00:35:23.000Just with that one relatively small adjustment.
00:35:27.000If it was like, instead of sugary drinks, 20% is going to be spent on locally reared or grown food.
00:35:32.000Grown in, I don't know, a 20 mile radius of where they're eating it.
00:35:36.000That has to change the whole economy, that idea.
00:35:39.000I see you've got something to say, Cali, please.
00:35:43.000Yeah, I think that's the example of the type of initiatives we need to focus on, and not necessarily that exact issue, but we've got to focus on unimpeachable arguments.
00:35:53.000But even just the politics of what you just described, let's think about that.
00:35:55.000So let's think about if SNAP, say there was a deal with Democrats, we actually increased the funding a little bit, and we say that, you know, it's a free country, you can buy cigarettes, buy Coke.
00:36:04.000Buy all these things, but we're going to have healthy food on Snap.
00:36:08.000And instead of getting everyone obese and then sending $1,600 a month to Novo Nordics in Denmark, we're going to invest in American farmers.
00:36:16.000But even with the politics there, you've got probably the farmers on board, actually.
00:36:19.000You can probably pick off some of that.
00:36:22.000If you change the incentive structure for food companies, they can live within those rules if there's certainty.
00:36:31.000I think there's this really dark force from pharma that actually doesn't want people to thrive and be healthy.
00:36:38.000You know, pharma is not actively lobbying for food stamps, but there's this really weird kind of force against anything for Americans to be healthy.
00:36:46.000So there will be dark, but like, that's an issue.
00:36:48.000We've got to focus on big issues like that.
00:36:52.000If we can get a couple of wins in the next couple of years on transformative programs like that, to changing the paradigm that we should not be poisoning Americans and subsidizing that poison and then profiting from when they're sick, I think we really...
00:37:48.000I was just thinking, Coca-Cola should have given you a pay rise and kept you in the tent.
00:37:52.000You've been nothing but trouble to that organisation.
00:37:56.000The other thing that Jim O'Neill said, I'm assuming it's something you're familiar with, was when the challenge of organic When organic fruit and vegetables emerged 20 years or so ago, Stanford funded a clinical trial, and it had to produce favorable results.
00:38:18.000And Jim O'Neill explained to me that the way they did that was to set up a clinical trial that compared organic versus non-organic fruit, but for the marker of nutrition, not for the impact of pesticides.
00:38:32.000So they could say, we've done a study of organic fruit, And it's just the same as non-organic pesticide.
00:38:39.000They don't test for the negative impact of pesticides, which would be an entirely different set of results.
00:38:44.000So I suppose that shows that the way that clinical trials are organised, the way that clinical trials are funded, the way that academia has relationships with whatever interests it was that funded that particular clinical trial, actually formulates and shapes reality.
00:38:59.000When you add to that We're good to go.
00:39:18.000One thing you've alluded to a couple of times, Callie, is weird dark power.
00:39:23.000You're probably aware of how Tucker Carlson and a few people in this space now are starting to clearly, and I would include myself in this, allow our conversations to be informed by spiritual values.
00:39:34.000I know that you are Christian yourself, and every so often...
00:39:39.000Callie, I'm like looking at this stuff, whether it's to do with war or big pharmaceuticals or agriculture, and sometimes I sort of buttress up against something that doesn't make sense materially.
00:39:53.000What is it that gets people over the line to agitate for things that are bad for human beings?
00:39:59.000It can't just be greed, even though greed, one might argue from a theological perspective, is itself somehow tethered in evil, temptation, the devil, Satan.
00:40:09.000And again and again, I'm seeing, again, in the sort of around the topics that we're already discussing, a kind of something that's beyond rationalism.
00:40:20.000And I would pack into that almost everything that we've touched upon.
00:40:23.000Like, why are SNL, that used to be an edgy show, or Jimmy Kimmel, who I know is like a good guy, somehow invested in, like, attacking Bobby Kennedy and saying that he's, you know, like, when, if you meet and talk to Bobby Kennedy, you recognise you're talking to a man of integrity, with principles, who's flawed.
00:40:39.000I wonder what kind of set of values must have taken hold in order for there to be a sort of an...
00:40:50.000Institutional, antithetical, anti-life flow that seems to govern not only policy and the direction of economics, but also the public discourse.
00:41:01.000It does seem evil in the same way that lying about escalating a war between Ukraine and Russia and its potential consequences seems evil.
00:41:10.000Do you ever get sort of like chilling revelations that there is something darker than the syrup at the bottom of a Coca-Cola bottle that's motivating all of this?
00:41:23.000Okay, well, I'll start with disputing the premise a little bit, even though I agree with it, for a little bit of optimism.
00:41:29.000I will say we have a complicated world, and there is a lot of darkness around this whole transformation agenda of Bobby Kennedy's.
00:41:36.000But, you know, Tim Ryan, a leading Democrat, just wrote a great op-ed.
00:41:40.000Cory Booker has been posting stuff about this.
00:41:42.000I think it's actually a positive thing that if you actually close your eyes at a Trump-RFK rally, you know, during the campaign, you wouldn't know whether you win a A hippie commune at Berkeley or a Trump campaign, really.
00:41:54.000They were talking about regenerative farming and getting the toxins out of our food, getting kids healthy.
00:41:57.000I mean, the things conservatives are talking about are indistinguishable, right, from what hippies were talking about just five years ago.
00:42:03.000So I think there is like this broad-based almost agreement.
00:42:06.000And I think, obviously, and it's, you know, deep, deep forces at play.
00:42:11.000We have just an incredibly toxic political environment.
00:42:13.000And I think, you know, something happened with COVID where for some reason it's become a political virtue on the left.
00:42:19.000To blindly trust experts, to blindly trust pharmaceutical companies, to blindly trust food companies.
00:42:25.000You'll have to unpack that one for me, but for some reason, particularly on the left, there's a fetish for the experts.
00:42:30.000The experts have demonstrably let us down.
00:42:33.000I think it's tapping into a fear-based mindset that people inevitably can be drawn to, and it's a really weak thing for leaders to do, is appeal to fear.
00:42:40.000And I think that's what happened during COVID. I mean, I think we're going to be assessing the psychological impacts from COVID for the next generation.
00:42:48.000I think it was the most important public policy and societal event that's happened in the past 50 years.
00:42:53.000You know, and I think it did show that you can appeal to fear, you know, in a very powerful way, in a very destructive way.
00:42:58.000And that's, you know, for whatever reason, people, particularly on the left, are doing.
00:43:07.000Just when it gets to like why this happens, why everyone's been psyoped, why Jimmy Kimmel and SNL and all the news, you know, I think it actually gets to what you said about the studies, about the human randomized control studies in organic food.
00:43:20.000I think, in a way, and Casey talks about this so eloquently, Is that I think the science has actually detached us from our spirit.
00:43:28.000And I think we're born with this innate sense of common sense and an innate sense of what's good for us.
00:43:35.000I mean, throughout all of human history, we knew natural food was good.
00:43:41.000You know, we knew, you know, almost like mindfulness was good.
00:43:45.000And I think modern society has systematically hijacked these Basically factors that our cells innately need.
00:43:53.000We have chronic stress all day with our phones and with trillions of dollars of incentives that attack our attention.
00:43:58.000You know, I was just with a friend who has chickens and a chicken coop, and just turning the light on inside a chicken coop all day produces two times more eggs.
00:44:09.000Their hormones change so much just with the light on that they produce two times more eggs.
00:44:14.000I mean, we have so many stimuli around us with, you know, light.
00:44:18.000And with what's happening in our circadian rhythm and with all the toxins in the air, I don't think we fully realize how much these things are like changing our hormones.
00:44:26.000So anyway, these are all common sense things.
00:44:28.000But then we get hit over the head with the studies in the NIH. There's literally a study and an academic disagreement questioning whether microplastics are bad for Americans.
00:44:38.000That's literally a scientific debate happening at the NIH. Right now, 0.5% of a child's brain is made of plastic.
00:44:44.0000.5% because there's so much microplastics.
00:44:47.000And there is literally at the NIH an argument on whether there's enough human randomized controlled trials to study whether that's a good thing.
00:44:53.000There's an argument right now with the NIH of whether crude oil, these food colorings in our food, Are appropriate or not for kids?
00:45:00.000These are banned in every other country and are linked to ADHD. And there's a discussion of whether there's enough human randomized control study trials.
00:45:07.000Do we need human randomized control study trials to know whether glyphosate, which requires a hazmat suit to spray and kills every organism in sight by design, whether that ingesting into our kids' bodies at a massive scale is good?
00:45:20.000Do we need a human randomized control trial on whether crude oil food colorings are good?
00:45:25.000We've kind of lost the plot, and I think, Russell, it's kind of taken us away from nature, from the sense of the cycles of how our soil and environment connects to our health.
00:45:36.000I truly do think this, and this is the type of concepts we're talking about, we don't need a multi- You know, step, 20-page nutritional guidelines.
00:45:44.000You know, we need to talk about getting back to nature, getting back to whole food, you know, avoiding processed crap.
00:45:52.000If we just have that type of leadership, that type of common sense leadership from our scientific authorities, I think we could be transformed.
00:45:57.000But at the end of the day, this is something you talk about so eloquently.
00:46:01.000It's getting more in touch with nature.
00:46:03.000It's like, it's actually, you know, understanding basic, innate, common sense.
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00:47:41.000The false markers of technological ascent and medical expertise in certain areas has perhaps distracted us from the fact that when it comes to eternity, humankind evolves, changes, grows, depends on your theology, at a different pace.
00:47:58.000And we've been sort of led to believe that we're at some kind of apex as a result of the ingenuity of a handful of people that have brought about innovation in the areas that I just outlined, whether medical or Or technological.
00:48:09.000When you talk about the left's kind of, it'd be difficult not to regard it as demonic, but it's certainly materialist abandon of personal autonomy, personal authority in favour of technocracy.
00:48:22.000The elevation of expertise and science, but not science itself.
00:48:26.000With the objectivity and imperialism, excuse me, empiricism, that we are accustomed to, but science as a subset of certain economic imperatives, meaning certain clinical trials will never be undertaken lest the data produced be unfavourable,
00:48:42.000has meant that we've entered into this kind of inert and parasitical zombie era, where people, through rationalism and through reason, ironically, have led themselves to an Irrational perspective.
00:48:57.000That irrational perspective being that objectivity can be achieved without clarity and transparency.
00:49:04.000That the word science itself is sufficient to navigate the obvious interests that masquerade and manoeuvre behind the results we see and the results that we don't see.
00:49:16.000And like you, I share some optimism around Elon Musk because...
00:49:20.000Because as well as being an obvious genius, he's a kind of trickster figure that is willing to engage in territories that are potentially quite explosive, novel and innovative.
00:49:36.000Whilst I am aware of the kind of attacks that he may receive when it comes to a subject like transhumanism, i.e.
00:49:44.000Neuralink being kind of When you isolate the issue of free speech, it's pretty plain that in the same way that Trump disrupted and created a kind of havoc at bare minimum within the political establishment because of his novel approach to communication and his utilisation of social media,
00:50:06.000Musk, too, whatever else you say about him, the people with the kind of power that leads to the economics of sick children being a priority and baked into the American economy.
00:50:17.000The mentality that requires perpetual war for the American economy to be sustained, and then you just have to reverse engineer the reason for these wars.
00:50:26.000Oh, well, you know, Putin's a criminal, or China are doing this, or this is happening.
00:50:33.000At justifying the monsters they've created, and in fact denying that they're monsters, claiming in fact that they are saviours.
00:50:40.000So what I see is when you kill God in the sort of famous Nietzschean edict, and replace that God with a kind of a human power, whether that's human power expressed through governmental or commercial institutions, That has a tendency towards what, from a theological perspective, could be regarded as demonic or even evil outcomes, because you've extracted the universal principles upon which God relies, i.e.
00:51:10.000we are here to love one another, sacrifice ourselves for the betterment of one another.
00:51:15.000If you live in a rationalist and materialist purview, then you are the summit and apex of your own life, and your pleasure and the avoidance of fear are Are the priorities just from a sort of a biological and instinctual perspective, which is frankly all that's left if you remove invisible spiritual power.
00:52:14.000The state, which is just a sort of a conundrum and collective of humans, becomes all-powerful.
00:52:21.000And as I suppose we've been talking around, perhaps it's not just human.
00:52:25.000It's that which is fallen within humans.
00:52:28.000That which is, when light, a kind of false light, and which, when it's dark, is a darkness that leads to a requirement for your children to eat poison in order for your economy to flourish.
00:52:43.000I think you've just summed up in my head.
00:52:47.000It's impossible for me to articulate, but I think why people feel so optimistic right now.
00:52:52.000I think in a weird way, this person you talked about, this icon, Donald Trump, this unexpected prophet, It's batting away at this orthodoxy that's going to destroy the country.
00:54:01.000We're going to have rough and tumble conversations.
00:54:04.000And then let's get people in there that see things clearly, that love their institutions, that they're taking over.
00:54:12.000All these cabinet appointees, you know, Bobby Kennedy wants people to be healthy and wants the American healthcare system to thrive, but he's got a skeptical eye of the institution.
00:54:21.000So I think you've just articulated the almost spiritual promise and opportunity of a Trump presidency.
00:54:27.000There's going to be many, many pitfalls and many, many challenges, but I think we should hold to that optimism.
00:54:39.000I feel genuinely heartened when I see what's happening in your life.
00:54:47.000The optimism that you've referred to alongside its shadow is nourished in me by just by sort of allowing myself to think, wait a minute...
00:54:57.000If Callie Means and Casey Means are in a position of influence, things can't be the same as they were before under the duplicitous proclamations of the previous administration.
00:55:10.000Because this is someone I've spoke to, who I've felt educate in me, and I've seen educate in others.
00:55:16.000And every time I speak to him, I come away knowing, oh, 80% of the NIH funding comes with this, 75%.
00:55:25.000You know, I think, like, when I was doing the podcast, you know, like, and, you know, which I'm still doing, like, one of the recurrent things was, like, wait, like, there are good people, it's just these good people are marginal and often maligned, and what has to happen...
00:55:43.000Clearly, it's like, you know, Marty Makari and Jay Bhattacharya and Kali Means and Casey Meade.
00:55:48.000If all these people are suddenly in positions where they're making decisions that direct the American, whatever this beast is that lives on sickness and eats cancer, lubricated by processed seed oil, if this beast is a confronted, tamed, slain, you're going to have a different America.
00:56:07.000That's like, that's not even hyperbole other than The image system I used was pretty bold.
00:56:39.000I think the fact that you brought the microphone to this and you have a lot of influence and our friends in the independent media space, it's a huge, huge thing because the side of light, the side of truth, not necessarily the side that's right, but the side that's even asking the questions has the power right now.
00:56:57.000Yeah, I think the other thing I just say is what's going to transform American health more than any single policy.
00:57:03.000It's just everyone that's connected with this message.
00:57:06.000I mean, it's just been like on my micro level, just been like unbelievable hearing from people like reading our book that seen me and my sister on your podcast and Tucker's and others.
00:57:17.000And I just think, like, just little microchanges we make in our lives, like, that's where almost the spiritual element kicks.
00:57:22.000If, like, enough people see the system for what it is and get outside of it and think about homeschooling or think about, you know, going against orthodoxies on medicine and food, that does level up.
00:57:33.000And I think You know, this is raw politics, and I think why this Maha movement has such an opportunity is because politicians see voters really care about it.
00:57:42.000I mean, that's what happened and why I'm optimistic, is I think you're going to see Democrats try to take this mantle and out Maha.
00:58:28.000And if 0.5% of microplastics in a child's brain...
00:58:34.000Could be considered to be a negative influence.
00:58:37.000Perhaps if we can influence their mind, even to that degree, it will create a change of direction.
00:58:44.000I do feel really heartened, because what it is, even if it were like...
00:58:47.000I guess the fear is that it gets reduced to a tactic.
00:58:51.000It's like, you know, because by keeping that over-teen window so tight, people will be like...
00:58:57.000Surely if someone comes on and says, we're going to make your children healthier, everyone's going to want that, right?
00:59:03.000Whether you're a Republican or a Democrat or a Libertarian or Ku Klux Klan or a Communist, if the pledge is, we want your children to live longer and to be happier...
00:59:13.000You're going to turn your head and awaken from your ideological haze and go, oh yeah, that's more important.
00:59:18.000And the only way that wasn't an influential factor up to now is because the entire political space was captured to some degree because when you have a less fluid media, you can strangle these conversations in the crib.
00:59:28.000And maybe 30 years ago, Callie, you would have been like, oh, did you ever read that book by that guy?
01:00:53.000Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Callie Means as much as I did, and you're filled with the kind of optimism that one feels when you know it's possible to change the world, and that you are a participant in that, not a spectator.
01:01:04.000That it is your glory that will light the way.