00:00:26.000Russian, We're dedicating our time to talking to people that can facilitate spiritual awakening, help us to learn how we can access the fuel, the fruit that is our birthright, and also to people that help with energy independence and food independence, ways of decoupling yourself from a corrupt state.
00:00:55.000We're also talking about forms of protest that might be successful.
00:00:58.000That's why I was fascinated when Tucker said, don't pay your credit card bills.
00:01:00.000How do you get out of this system, this crunching mortgage death grip system that wants you in continual debt paying endless tax?
00:01:08.000For the spiritual component, you could read my book, Russell Brand How to Become Christian in Seven Days.
00:01:13.000There's a link in the description for that.
00:01:15.000For free of charge, which I think is better because it's me talking, and surely that's what you need more of.
00:01:21.000And today's guest is also someone that's going to be incredibly helpful because Rick S. wrote this book that shows how the literature around the 12 steps, and any of you that have had an addiction issue, it's likely that 12 steps has been part of your recovery.
00:01:36.000What Rick S. has done marvelously in his fat book here is helped us to understand where particular spiritual principles from scripture are being applied.
00:03:24.000You can see how he would have gone into that gladiator phase after Romper Stomper, his first Australian movie, full of optimism, only to emerge on the other side.
00:03:34.000How anyone does, no matter how brief their skirmish with Hollywood is, disappointed and with a peculiar taste in your mouth, knowing that you are on the edge of something diabolical and dreadful.
00:03:45.000In a sense, the people that I worry about most are the ones that have lived there forever Tom Hanks, Leonardo DiCaprio.
00:05:44.000Scan the QR code, click the link in the description, download Rumble Wallet.
00:05:47.000From there, you can save your wallet, tap buy, and you're in the game.
00:05:49.000Take control of your money and get started with Rumble Wallet today.
00:05:53.000As you know, I'm 23 years clean and sober from drugs and alcohol.
00:05:57.000The way I stay sober and clean is by participating in decentralized groups where the leaders are just trusted servants, where your identity is secondary to your shared purpose.
00:06:10.000But no one's trying to undermine your individual identity, and anyone can join.
00:06:13.000It doesn't matter where you're from, it doesn't matter what you believe in, whether you believe in God or don't believe in God at all.
00:06:19.000Today, I'm talking to someone who wrote a very inspirational and influential book on the subject, Rick S. If you're interested in addiction, alcoholism, spirituality, if you're interested in detaching yourself from the rigid grip of a culture that always seems to find its way back into you, you get off drugs and suddenly, I don't know, food or pornography or some other form of identity will get hold of you.
00:06:45.000The truth is this that I reckon if I'd have.
00:06:49.000When I was very young, I understood the spiritual principles that are behind the 12 steps.
00:06:53.000It could have saved me a lot of time, a lot of money, and a lot of aggravation.
00:06:57.000Certainly, I'm raising my own children with an awareness and understanding of the 12 steps as best as I can.
00:07:01.000But here's someone that wrote the book.
00:07:05.000The Fat Book is the name of this book, which is a sort of a pun on the Big Book, which is the affectionate name for the book by Bill W. and others that gave the name Alcoholics Anonymous to the 12 step group Alcoholics Anonymous, which the traditions of suggest that no one. Can claim to have any ownership of, and also in general, no one can speak on behalf of, and that's a very sort of smart principle.
00:07:32.000And indeed, it's the 12 steps and the 12 traditions that I want to talk to our guest Rick S. today about.
00:07:51.000And I've never really had a guest like this before.
00:07:55.000And can you explain what your position is when it comes to the writing of this book and why you're known as Rick S. rather than anything else for the purposes of this conversation?
00:08:53.000As I said to you, I wish I'd read your book before I wrote mine because.
00:08:56.000One of the things I particularly enjoy is how you've taken the Alcoholics Anonymous book from which the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous takes its name, written primarily by Bill W., but to some degree by Consortium, which describes the problem of addiction to alcohol and the solution.
00:09:18.000One of the first things that fascinated me, and indeed that I have written about in my book, Rick, is the correspondence between Bill W. and Jung because of Jung's.
00:09:30.000I suppose synchronous pre involvement in the establishment of the fellowship.
00:09:37.000Maybe that's an interesting place for us to start with Carl Jung and is it Roland Hazard?
00:09:44.000Yeah, that's a very interesting place to start because, you know, Jung writes a letter back to Bill Wilson.
00:09:52.000Bill Wilson writes him this great letter.
00:09:54.000And if you want to know the history of Alcoholics Anonymous, Bill lays it out in that letter.
00:09:58.000And Jung writes back to him and he says, you know, the formula is this Spiritus contro Spiritum.
00:10:05.000Which in Latin means it takes a spirit to defeat a spirit.
00:10:09.000And, you know, the thing with Alcoholics Anonymous today versus where it was years ago is that, you know, if you take the population, 100% of people who are old enough to drink, whatever age you put that out, 80% of them go ahead and try alcohol or drugs.
00:10:26.000Of that, 20% develop some kind of problem.
00:10:29.000And of that, 20% end up with what the Big Book calls as a real alcoholic.
00:11:42.000So you break the problems with alcoholism down into three parts, and it says, you know, Bill Wilson wrote, when the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically.
00:11:53.000Well, the spiritual malady is our separation from God.
00:12:25.000I was 23 years clean and sober because of various 12 step groups that I may or may not belong to and that I am not qualified to speak on behalf of.
00:12:42.000And what's interesting, having had the foundational experience of the 12 steps, which, as the 12th step says, having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, even if the intention when anyone goes into a 12 step program is to stop drinking or to stop taking drugs, the intended result, one might say, is the spiritual awakening.
00:13:17.000Now means canniness, brightness, intuition, a sense of understanding.
00:13:24.000The problem in the first place is spiritual.
00:13:27.000Now, you referred to some of the things in Carl Jung's letter to Bill Wilson, not least the fact that it was very near the end of his life and might therefore kind of represent a culminative view of addiction from Jung, like culminative after a life's work.
00:13:46.000When he says, as you cited, and this is in your book, you quoted this letter, well, you publish it in its entirety, and I quote it at length in my own book.
00:13:59.000He says here, I'm strongly convinced that the evil principle prevailing in this world lends the unrecognized spiritual need into perdition, wickedness, if it is not counteracted either by real religious insight or by the protective wall of human community.
00:14:14.000An ordinary man not protected by an action from above.
00:15:33.000You're kind of looking for shapes and rhymes in Scripture.
00:15:36.000So when I read Scripture, when I read what He actually says, our Lord, as well as the prophecies that announce Him in the Old Testament, some of the concepts that really overwhelmed me were things like living water, not creating systems, participation in the flow.
00:15:56.000Now, you've already said that human consciousness is a sort of an interface into God.
00:16:04.000And I suppose what we're saying is that the 12 steps is a.
00:16:07.000Technique that born of crisis can lead you into a better understanding of that interface.
00:17:11.000And I had been the guy who denied, denied, denied you were weak.
00:17:15.000And in that moment, my heart was ready.
00:17:17.000You know, in the parable of the sower, the different, it finally hit the right place.
00:17:21.000We got down and as we prayed, as you talked about in your gut, for me, it was like something was getting ripped out and something new was getting shoved in.
00:17:28.000In an instantaneous moment, everything changed, yet everything was the same.
00:17:32.000I intuitively knew what used to baffle me, and the still small voice said to me, You'll never drink again.
00:18:50.000They add an appendix to the book and they make this awakening, trying to raise the bar, trying to get everybody to Jesus.
00:18:57.000And I think in that process, they lose the real alcoholic.
00:19:02.000And so, in writing the fat book, the idea was let's take the history of what these guys did, what they believe, let's go back to the original words and let's try to present that.
00:19:11.000Because what happens when you actually receive the Holy Spirit for me to live is Christ, to die is gain, where I go, He is.
00:19:26.000There's his grace and his grace alone.
00:19:28.000And when a man starts to walk in that space, well, you know, a lot can happen.
00:19:36.000And, you know, I spent the morning, I wasn't too familiar with all of your work.
00:19:39.000I spent the morning looking at various videos that you've been doing and, you know, attack everywhere, which just says to me, God's behind this because they're going to attack you.
00:21:20.000I wonder, Rick, by your definition, are you circling something that I've been feeling for a long time as a 12 step person, but only for a little while as a Christian?
00:21:33.000That, um, Sometimes, when we institute things, when things become institutions, they somehow manage to negate the key idea.
00:21:43.000Like, sometimes I think that people are only at a 12 step thing, and I guess I should understand because I suppose that's the only thing I was doing, so that I can kind of get my life back or for the consequences to stop.
00:21:54.000Really, you know, look, let me just get clean from drugs and alcohol so I can go on and become famous.
00:22:00.000Or let me just go to church so that I can operate in the world.
00:22:42.000So I had a sort of extraordinary access to cheap one night stand type sex.
00:22:51.000And that, in a way, really arrested my spiritual development in a way that kind of might be comparable to substance misuse.
00:23:00.000So, where I'm asking for your insights are both on how addiction can function through both behavior as well as chemicals and relationships.
00:23:12.000And also, the very institutions that are set up to harness the Holy Spirit, even though it's so clear that what Paul is saying again and again is that your body is the temple, you are the temple.
00:23:28.000And it seems that, you know, the fact that someone as individualistic and obviously self centered as Bill W managed to do this and not turn it into the Bill Wilson's technique for recovery, starring Bill Wilson.
00:23:44.000You know, the fact that he managed to do that is a sort of an indication that he demonstrated the sacrifice that we all need to sacrifice, I suppose.
00:23:51.000So, yeah, the two questions are the way that addiction can present outside of substance.
00:23:55.000And the way that the institutions that are meant to remedy it somehow incline back towards worldliness.
00:24:44.000And what ends up happening is in the moment of temptation, and this hardly gets talked about anymore, but when I got here, we used to talk about it.
00:24:55.000And the big book, and you'll find a section in the fat book there that it shows you all the places that.
00:24:59.000Bill Wilson talked about temptation, and then it shows you all of the places where it talks about inspiration.
00:25:06.000Inspiration is not a motivational speaker, it's not a sponsor, it's not a group, it comes from God.
00:25:14.000And it says that we would recoil like our hand from a hot flame when we're spiritually well.
00:25:20.000The thought's still going to come yes, there is a devil, he is going to tempt, but we will intuitively know what used to baffle us, we'll recoil like our hand from a hot flame.
00:25:37.000He called it the strange mental blank spot.
00:25:40.000The evidence of the spiritual death is the alcoholic's inability to recall with sufficient force of memory what happened the last time he took a drink.
00:25:49.000And I pose to you if you can't remember something, how can you defend yourself against it?
00:25:57.000Now, if you don't have that, you can take cognitive therapy.
00:26:01.000You can do all kinds of different things to.
00:26:03.000Rewire your brain and all this stuff that's going on on the internet.
00:26:07.000But if you've got the spiritual break, if you've drinking long enough or hard enough and you're spiritually broken, you will not be able to get that defense back absent that intuitive thought that comes from God.
00:27:50.000The language of things back in the 30s compared to where we are 80, 90 years later in our understanding, our unchurched life, and our willingness not to attend church.
00:28:03.000Don't get me wrong, I didn't step foot in a church for 13 years.
00:28:07.000My wife had to convince me to go to church.
00:28:09.000So I was watching one of your videos, your Sunday morning thing with your wife.
00:28:21.000I love the way you study the Bible, but we're going to raise kids.
00:28:23.000Don't you think we ought to take them to a church?0.88
00:28:26.000And when I got there, I could see where religious people were right.0.98
00:28:30.000I could take what I'd learned in the Bible with the people that I was associating with trying to recover, and I could look at these people through a whole different lens and I could see them as described in the book of Luke.0.59
00:29:18.000Pride tells me that there is no God, and pride tells me that I am God.
00:29:23.000And that doesn't change until a man is ready to lay down his life.
00:29:27.000And the longer you stay, you're really fortunate you had a second bottom.
00:29:31.000The longer a man stays sober based on his own willpower and the power of the room, that human shield that Young talked about, the more difficult it is to come to know Christ because you'll think that you've got it.
00:29:45.000And then one day you get hit with the strange mental blank spot and you're like, I was just sober 20 years.
00:29:55.000Even though, Rick, I've always queried the allergy component.
00:30:00.000I've always felt that step three was more important to me than step one, in so much as if I didn't know and accidentally I drank a bit of vodka and no one told me that I drank vodka, would I involuntarily start drinking vodka?
00:30:14.000You know, I like, you know, that's where it's sort of a bit of a question mark.
00:30:17.000But like, I accepted absolutely, you cannot drink again.
00:30:36.000With the sex and love addiction, I was either being obsessively promiscuous or just devoted to some sort of earthbound goddess woman, just putting too much pressure on them and wanting them to be perfect and stuff.
00:30:49.000And then, when this second bottom, as you describe it, i.e., a sort of a cracking open of the heart, a total breakdown, which in my case came when allegations were made of serious sex crime, like rape and all that, and I'm standing trial.
00:31:04.000In October, by God's grace, if truth and justice are real things, then truth and justice will be done.
00:31:10.000And when, so that, but that happened at the same time as my boy had heart surgery, and it was such a sort of a crack, like he was 12 weeks old, and so much of what you said then about like this, this was very real.
00:31:24.000And I didn't sort of see it till I could see it, you know?
00:31:27.000Like I didn't want Christ because I'm Christ, and I couldn't even see that's what I was doing.
00:31:34.000I couldn't even see that that's what I was doing because I know how ridiculous that is because I know my impotence.0.76
00:33:06.000Or you're, you know, Saul of Tarsus reconstituting your Pharisaic.
00:33:14.000Theological wisdom to being his devout servant, you know, wherever you are on that, wherever you are on that wide, wide spectrum, or John the Baptist, I mean, you know, like the wild man in the wood, you know, wherever you are, once you know he's real, something changes.
00:33:32.000But I've got to say also, though, you know, I've been in the last couple of years, Rick, I've been in so much pain, so much pain, like I'm feeling sort of crushed to the point of I can't be here no more.
00:33:46.000And then the pain releases, and I it normally comes with insight.
00:33:50.000So, how and to your point a minute ago, temptation v. inspiration obviously the temptation v. inspiration moment in scripture is the temptations of Christ and like where Him and the devil directly interact.
00:34:05.000Uh, and I heard recently we live in a Faustian world, in and and Faust is, I guess, Faust accepts it like many of us, me, I would, I did it would, if the devil comes and goes, Hey, do you want.
00:34:18.000Like to be able to be in charge of the whole world.
00:34:24.000Like, I'm not, I'm not able to, like, you know, now I'm broken.
00:34:28.000I'm so broken, you know, I'm so broken that I don't be in business with that stuff.
00:34:32.000So I wonder what, like, so, but still, I guess, yeah, you've made a distinction.
00:34:37.000People that have alcoholic and chemical dependency issues, is it that we absolutely have to have a spiritual solution and people that don't have it are able to somehow survive?
00:34:46.000What, you know, if it's not actually about the substances, what is the distinction?
00:36:03.000And Bill Wilson later on in the 12 and 12 on page 69, 66 rather, sorry, he writes about no one wants to be so angry that they murder, so lustful enough that they rape.
00:36:14.000And he goes through the seven deadly sins.
00:36:16.000But when you look in the big book, he only mentions it in one paragraph.
00:36:21.000That was the fundamental where you started.
00:36:23.000So what happens is we go, we get some relief, we're in this human shield and we're, you know, doing our thing.
00:36:30.000And if we're a real alcoholic, we're going to relapse.
00:36:34.000We're going to drink again because no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
00:36:40.000If we're not that description and we have some other alcoholic problems that cognitive therapy and group support that can solve that issue because they haven't gone to the spiritual brokenness, the rooms are full of those people too.
00:36:56.000And they all think they've got the same thing and they don't.
00:37:07.000I have this strange mental blank spot, the inability to recall with sufficient force of memory.
00:37:11.000If it comes in my body, I'm going to have this tremendous craving, but somehow I fail to recognize that I'm going to turn from one to the other.
00:37:21.000We talk about going from drugs to alcohol.
00:37:23.000You talk about going from drug to sex.
00:37:25.000You talk about our greed, how we want the world to look at us.
00:37:29.000Man turns all these different ways because there is a devil, and it's a spiritual warfare going on.
00:38:53.000And the old timers were talking about that.
00:38:56.000When you read the old stories, they all talked about Christ in the Bible.
00:38:59.000Bill Wilson writes in As Bill Sees It, I believe so firmly that Christ could do anything.
00:39:06.000I had the unconscious conceit to think he would do it right there and then through me in the way that I chose.
00:39:13.000You might know what that feels like, right?
00:39:16.000And he writes that after going out and preaching for six months to people, and nobody's getting it.
00:39:21.000He goes back to Silkworth, who tried to introduce him to the great physician out of the book of Luke, and Silkworth says, Tell him about.
00:39:28.000The allergy, tell them about the disease.
00:39:31.000When a man knows that there's going to come a time that, absent God in his life, manifested as the Holy Spirit receiving that intuition, we intuitively knew what used to baffle us.
00:41:15.000And I want to say that the other thing that I was doing while being clean from drugs and alcohol, but still in self, was exploring, reading, learning about Eastern mysticism, Upanishads, Vedas, and spending time with like teachers.
00:41:42.000I don't want to make it out like I was on some weird quest, I was getting on with life, but I was reading those kind of books and stuff.
00:41:47.000And what interests me, what I think they do well, or at least in the westernized version of that, which in a way is quite one could do a quick history of that in your country, I think, because of course there's like in the 1950s, the beats start to mess with that, which is near, you know, near contemporary to the establishing of AA.
00:42:11.000You know, like the countercultural movement, the Beatles, and like the Maharishi coming to your country.
00:42:17.000What I think that when Americans describe Eastern mysticism, whether we're talking Ramdass or Ginsburg or, you know, Alan Watts for a Brit, like there's a good focus on this idea that you touched upon there seek thee first the kingdom of God, of the presence in the moment, practicing the presence of God, as Brother Lawrence, the 16th century French.
00:42:47.000And in Christianity, as well as perhaps in 12 steps, this mystery understandably gets somewhat obfuscated because it's complicated to continually surrender.
00:43:03.000The great Sandy Beach, who was, you know, like a Floridian sort of 12 step speaker who I always have really enjoyed, God rest his soul.
00:43:17.000Is that he was very able in a folksy and accessible way to help me to understand that we were dealing with something extremely mysterious.
00:43:26.000That what begins, as our conversation did, with understanding dependent, you know, spiritus contra spiritum, that you need a spirit to overcome a spirit, that we're participants in something quite holy and quite difficult to understand.
00:43:43.000In Eastern mysticism, they make that very clear like, stay in the present.
00:44:34.000But, like, but, you know, what I think, what I've experienced in both the 12 steps and in my encounters in the Christian church is this mystery component is put aside, understandably, because it is a spiritual program of action with a 12 steps and Christian church has got to survive in its host nation, whether that's the Roman Catholic Church or the Church of England or the plethora of American institutions.
00:45:00.000It's got to survive in its host culture.
00:45:02.000And it seems to me that part of the cost of that is the, if not suppression, a curious mental blank spot when it comes to you are dealing with God now via and through your own consciousness in this moment.
00:45:21.000Now, why is that so important and why?
00:45:24.000Is that something that doesn't seem to be at the forefront of contemporary Christianity or contemporary 12 steps?
00:45:37.000So, when you look at any other, and I don't like religion.
00:45:41.000First of all, to be Christian means Christ within.
00:45:46.000We were made to accept Christ and receive the Holy Spirit without, as you talked about earlier, all the Pharisees.
00:45:54.000Religion stack that goes on top of it.
00:45:57.000But when you look at every other, and I'm going to use religion just for a placeholder of that word, when you look at every religion, they're all about works.
00:47:53.000Our Father who art in heaven, outside of time, without limit.
00:47:57.000Hallow, holy, and separate be thy name.
00:48:00.000They ask the Lord how to pray, and He lays all of life down in front of us, and we don't stop to chop it up and look at it.
00:48:07.000So if I've received the Holy Spirit and it's dwelled in me, I have received that power that's released in the second chapter of the book of Acts, right?
00:48:18.000Boom, and the Spirit will be upon you.
00:50:47.000Sounds like He instantly rewired yours.
00:50:50.000But now I've got all these things that I have to do while I'm going through the process of justification, and I'm going to get fought every step of the way because He knows He's lost and He wants us quiet.
00:51:01.000He does not, the liar does not want the truth to be out there.
00:51:06.000He doesn't want one person to listen to you on your podcast and go, I need to believe in Christ and get on his knees and accept the Lord.
00:51:25.000How do we get so far away from the truth that we won't even talk about the things that the old timers did?0.99
00:51:31.000Which is why I'm so happy there are so many people buying that fat book and digging into our history, the scripture, and how it all fit.0.97
00:51:44.000I love some of the parts of the book that I'm most enjoying and most finding useful in my first go round.
00:51:52.000Is you did provide 12 scriptures for each of the 12 steps.
00:51:58.000And just now, you talked about the seven sins versus the seven virtues.
00:52:04.000Now, people that are not familiar with 12 step ideology may not know that perhaps the idea of the Ism, you know, as they say, alcohol comes in bottles, alcoholism comes in people.
00:52:17.000That the ism could be understood to be sin itself.
00:52:21.000And I like this aspect of sin that's seen as a kind of false frequency, the counterfeit frequency, like in a Luke 10 18 way, like that when the hubris and false pride leads to a fake circuit, the sin circuit.
00:52:38.000One could even envisage it neurologically, I think, Rick, as like the Lucifer, the Fake light, you know, given that neurological information on some level is electromagnetic, it even could be a false light.
00:52:50.000You might even see it as a false light.
00:52:52.000You know, the cities are full of false light, the sky are full of false light, you can't see the stars no more.
00:52:59.000The inward constellations of neurology invaded with false phosphorescence.
00:53:04.000So when, like, the counteracting measure to sin you offer here in this table, you say lust, like you offer it here on page 259 of your book.
00:53:17.000Lust, excessive sexual appetite, yeah, I had that, can be counteracted by chastity, by purity.
00:53:24.000Now, what, so like if you're in a moment, you're feeling lust, what are you proposing?
00:53:29.000Like one, you take it immediately to the Lord?
00:53:50.000The thought he gives us the cardinal teachings of Jesus Christ show us what to do in every moment.
00:53:55.000When that tempting thought comes, I got to put my thought line back God, give me the next right thought, give me something pure, let me think of you, let me think of your scriptures.
00:55:13.000When you show up at Alcoholics Anonymous, your belief system, right, which is stored in the back of your brain, the things that we believe, the things we act on instinctively, we intuitively know what used to baffle us.
00:55:26.000The instinct is booze and drugs are good because the tongue has the power of life and death, and we believe what we say.
00:55:36.000So, when we speak, oh, God, booze and drugs, it's so good, it's a party, it's this, and it's coming out of our mouth, we're creating a loop and we're actually programming our minds.0.87
00:55:45.000So, when garbage comes out of our mouth, who's hearing it?0.93
00:55:50.000That's why I have to change the way I speak.
00:55:52.000That's why I have to change the things that I do because I'm hearing it and I'm programming myself.
00:55:58.000So, I get here, and when you have an ism and you have a belief system that's already there, your frontal lobe does the reasoning.
00:56:08.000If you've already got a belief, it doesn't stop to think.
00:56:11.000That's why on page 42 of the big book, it says we have these strange mental blank spots the inability to recall with sufficient force of memory what happened the last time we took a drink because we already believe it.
00:56:25.000So in the second step, when it says we come to believe, how do we come to believe?
00:56:29.000Faith comes from hearing, hearing of the word of God.
00:56:34.000I would suggest to you, faith comes from hearing whatever you allow through your ears.
00:57:12.000Now we're trying to turn alcoholism into alcohol something disorder.
00:57:17.000AA's rewritten their whole book and woked it out.
00:57:22.000In fact, they want to change the part of the big book that says that if you still have, shoot, there's something wrong with the spirituality of your man's program if he still thinks of drink.
00:58:04.000That's not to mention the money that's getting spent, sorry to interrupt you, Rick, but the money that's getting spent on therapy is nothing compared to the money that's getting spent on alcohol, the money that's getting spent on drugs, and the money that's getting spent through Medicaid and various.
00:58:15.000Taxations and systems of control and prisons.
00:58:18.000Now, I want to say, like, there's two things to follow up on what you were just saying.
00:58:23.000Like, spell, like, the word spell, Alan Moore, the graphic artist who sort of, like, created some pretty good things, like Watchmen and stuff, he pointed out that even the word spell relates to what you said with the tongue, that we are creating reality, that we are co heirs with Christ and co participants with him in the creation of reality.
00:58:44.000And when you say something like, you know, take every fort captive, I heard from a Great teacher of ours here, Jamie Winship, who wrote a great book, Living Fearless.
00:58:53.000That take every thought captive is not just, you know, negative thoughts, all of them in terror.