Stay Free - Russel Brand - “The System Will SHUT YOU DOWN!” Matt Taibbi On Populist Uprising, Musk & UK Files - Stay Free #258

00:00:00.000 I'm going to go ahead and get the camera.

00:02:13.000 In this video In this video, you're going to see the future.

00:02:27.000 Hello there you Awakening Wonders.

00:02:28.000 Thanks for joining me today for Stay Free with Russell Bradd.

00:02:31.000 It's a very special episode.

00:02:33.000 You've probably come here to especially see it.

00:02:35.000 It's Matt Taibbi talking about new revelations from the Twitter Files or X-Files as it now has to be called.

00:02:42.000 Can anyone provide that?

00:02:42.000 That's Twilight Zone.

00:02:43.000 That wasn't the right thing.

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00:02:47.000 It's a brilliant conversation.

00:02:48.000 You can follow Matt Taibbi on Substack or at Racket News.

00:02:51.000 Both of those links are in the description.

00:02:53.000 You can hear us talking about the UK files, which shows how there's all sorts of spying,

00:02:58.000 discrediting and dissenting going on, how there's a formula emerging for setting up

00:03:01.000 these things called NGOs, non-government organisations, that are essentially sock puppets for power

00:03:06.000 that legitimise it.

00:03:07.000 We talk about Elon Musk and his latest case, and we talk about the Election Integrity Partnership,

00:03:12.000 and with a name like that, you know they're stealing elections.

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00:04:53.000 Time for us to have a conversation with a genuine, legitimate, fantastic journalist, a man with integrity, authenticity, a man whose spirit will inspire you and help you to recognise that no matter how disempowered you feel, no matter how far from truth you may feel, no matter how hard it may be to maintain optimism, There is always hope because there are men like my next guest out there fighting for freedom by acknowledging the complexity of truth.

00:05:20.000 Please welcome to the show Matt Taibbi.

00:05:21.000 Matt, thanks for joining us, mate.

00:05:23.000 Thanks for having me back, Russell.

00:05:25.000 So what is the significance of the UK files, Matt?

00:05:25.000 I appreciate it.

00:05:29.000 How are we going to make an American media audience concerned with the UK files?

00:05:37.000 What's the function of them and why are they globally significant?

00:05:42.000 Well, we've only released a piece of them so far.

00:05:46.000 Actually, some of these documents came out some time ago in a couple of Al Jazeera pieces.

00:05:57.000 But for the most part, there's an enormous quantity of Labor Party internal email communications that a whistleblower got hold of and now an investigative journalist named Paul Holden has, and he's been writing for us.

00:06:16.000 These documents are really important because of an organization called the Center for Countering Digital Hate, which has become one of the most influential, quote-unquote, anti-disinformation organizations in the world.

00:06:31.000 They have been tremendously successful in getting people taken off the internet by accusing them of hate speech, disinformation, and other offenses.

00:06:43.000 And they've always claimed to be independent.

00:06:45.000 These documents show that they were actually a Labour Party operation.

00:06:49.000 And, you know, they're pretty damning, I would say.

00:06:53.000 Why are they damning?

00:06:54.000 Who do they target?

00:06:56.000 Are there recognisable establishment figures within the British political establishment and even the American political establishment?

00:07:04.000 And would you say that knowing that they are not neutral and unfunded, that an agenda can be discerned based on the individuals targeted?

00:07:16.000 So this group, this Centre for Countering Digital Hate, Its origins trace back to a faction within the Labour Party that you're probably familiar with called Labour Together, that is most directly aligned with Keir Starmer, right?

00:07:38.000 So he's, you know, the likely next Prime Minister over there.

00:07:43.000 And yes, they have targeted individual politicians, most notably Jeremy Corbyn in Britain.

00:07:53.000 But also going even further back than that, or farther, I always get that wrong.

00:08:00.000 There was a sort of controversy involving Grant Schaps, remember the Tory MP, who was accused of editing his own Wikipedia pages.

00:08:12.000 These documents show that that story came from this group.

00:08:18.000 It was later recanted.

00:08:20.000 And so, It's a group that's dedicated to stopping fake news, but they themselves appear to have trafficked in fake news, so that we think is significant.

00:08:30.000 In the United States, we saw them all over the Twitter files because, among other things, they were really, really intense in trying to get the so-called disinformation dozen removed, which included Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and they've been recently sued by X slash Twitter.

00:08:48.000 Uh, because they've been involved in, um, accusations that, uh, X or Twitter or Elon Musk are all trafficking in hate speech.

00:09:00.000 So, uh, they're a pretty significant organization.

00:09:04.000 This new classification of hate speech appears to really be a weapon for control and a successful one because the category of hate speech is clearly one That exists, but it's difficult to believe that the sudden interest in protecting people's feelings is motivated by compassion.

00:09:28.000 And if it is, why are these opaquely funded organizations like the Center for Countering Digital Hate that don't explicitly declare what their interests are and what their funding is and what their agenda is?

00:09:39.000 And why do they have like sort of discernible connections to the political establishment?

00:09:47.000 This is happening, it seems, more and more broadly.

00:09:49.000 Ireland appears to be a piloting nation for these practices, with particularly draconian legislation being introduced and being demanded all the more immediately as a result of the recent riots in Dublin.

00:10:08.000 How do you think we're going to see this category of hate speech Yeah, that it's been appropriated for the wrong ends.

00:10:14.000 I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head there.

00:10:16.000 that is a position that can be defended?

00:10:19.000 Why is it not becoming clear that hate speech is not a legitimate concern?

00:10:25.000 Not that hate speech doesn't exist, but that it's being mobilized in this way?

00:10:29.000 Yeah, that it's been appropriated for the wrong ends.

00:10:33.000 Yeah, I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head there.

00:10:38.000 It's one thing when a bunch of college lefties come up to me and they say we're really concerned

00:10:46.000 about the proliferation of hate speech online.

00:10:48.000 It's another thing when I see an organization quoting the U.S.

00:10:52.000 Joint Chiefs of Staff and taking money from the Department of Defense and they're worried about hate speech.

00:10:57.000 Like, I don't think so.

00:10:59.000 You know, the sudden concern with defense and intelligence agencies with this topic and It is very hard to believe, and why is it so significant that they're involved?

00:11:15.000 Ira Glasser, the former head of the ACLU, he's the person who's famous for defending the Nazis who marched at Skokie.

00:11:24.000 He once talked about why he was against hate speech codes on campuses, and he told students and even minority students, he says, The issue isn't the speech.

00:11:35.000 The issue isn't the hate speech.

00:11:37.000 The issue is who's going to decide what is hate speech and who do you think that is, right?

00:11:42.000 If you get these hate speech codes, it's not going to be you deciding what's hate speech.

00:11:46.000 It's going to be the trustees at the university.

00:11:50.000 And, you know, this was 30 years ago when he was saying that.

00:11:54.000 Even then he was saying, it's not going to be you deciding.

00:11:57.000 Now it's even worse.

00:11:58.000 Now it's going to be some conglomeration of executive branch groups, defense, intelligence.

00:12:06.000 Do you really want them deciding what hate speech is and using that as a way to get things off offline?

00:12:12.000 I think that's very suspicious.

00:12:14.000 Before you answer the next question, Matt, I'm going to stop you there.

00:12:16.000 Stop right now.

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00:12:47.000 And if you become a supporter by going to Locals, we'd appreciate that as well.

00:12:53.000 There was a moment after 2008 where a bunch of, you might call them, leftist populist figures and movements emerged.

00:13:03.000 You know, Occupy, really obviously, Occupy Wall Street.

00:13:07.000 And in Greece there was the Syriza movement and Podemos in Spain.

00:13:11.000 And although Jeremy Corbyn was a lot later, I still feel that this kind of sentiment of anti-establishmentism was fueling that movement after an attempt to make the Labour Party, which is our Democrat party, more of a centrist and neutered organisation.

00:13:28.000 You know, which obviously began with Tony Blair and then there was a kind of a backlash against that.

00:13:34.000 Jeremy Corbyn was a significant figure because it felt for a moment, particularly in 2017, that there was a possibility that there was a genuine anti-establishment populist running for one of the major parties in the UK and it was someone from the left, not from the right.

00:13:55.000 So the disparaging and smearing of Jeremy Corbyn was interesting and there are people now that just Believe that Jeremy Corbyn is an anti-Semite and used extraordinary attacks and is a homophobe and stuff.

00:14:10.000 Was Jeremy Corbyn someone that was especially and particularly targeted?

00:14:14.000 And if so, what does that tell us about the agenda of groups like the Centre for Countering Digital Hate and hate speech more broadly?

00:14:23.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:14:24.000 of hate speech. I like what you just said, it's not, you know, the control of hate speech, it's

00:14:28.000 who decides what hate speech is. So can you tell me how Jeremy Corbyn, who to most people seems

00:14:33.000 like, you know, even if you don't agree with him, a pretty authentic figure. Yeah, exactly.

00:14:41.000 Yeah, I mean, I think you again, that question is directly on point.

00:14:48.000 When we started working on the Twitter files, one of the things that we didn't understand at first was, how come there are so many people who come from the military and sort of counter-terrorism suddenly involved in content moderation in Silicon Valley?

00:15:06.000 And when we finally started drilling down into organizations like the Global Engagement Center in the United States, The Department of Homeland Security had agencies against disinformation.

00:15:18.000 I had one person from one of those agencies telling me that, look, basically, originally these anti-disinformation groups were built to combat Propaganda from ISIS and Al Qaeda.

00:15:32.000 But after the Arab Spring, Occupy, the Tea Party, as you mentioned, Podemos, Syriza, you know, Viktor Orban's Fidesz Party, right?

00:15:42.000 Like the Australian far-right movements, and then even Bernie Sanders, Trump, Brexit, and then Jeremy Corbyn, I think, is a really important example.

00:15:56.000 That whole mission just shifted home, right?

00:15:59.000 They had this huge, basically illegal operation directed overseas at terrorist groups and they just, they just turned it inward.

00:16:07.000 And these people, the switch was described to me as CT to CP.

00:16:12.000 So it's counter-terrorism to counter-populism.

00:16:15.000 And I think that fully describes what happened here.

00:16:20.000 Like during the entire war on terror, we just told all these military and intelligence groups, Do whatever you need to do, including droning people to death, if that's necessary, to stop propaganda reaching the UK and Southern California suburbs.

00:16:40.000 And then those same people got moved on to this other mission.

00:16:44.000 I don't think they can really distinguish between terrorists and legitimate political movements, like people who vote.

00:16:52.000 They see threats in the same way.

00:16:55.000 And that's what's happened, is that they've turned the war on terror machinery inward.

00:17:02.000 It seems almost too deliciously simple to say that counter-terrorism became counter-populism, but there might be observable symptoms even in the rhetoric of a figure like Hillary Clinton saying we need to deprogram these MAGA extremists, like the language around it.

00:17:25.000 might be revealing. And I suppose that what it seems like is, you know, probably post

00:17:31.000 2008, but certainly with the advent of the kind of communication that's become subsequently

00:17:37.000 available, it became necessary to invent and utilise counter-populist tools, because anti-establishmentism

00:17:47.000 is I suppose always present, but very difficult to mobilise and organise when it is not geographical

00:17:54.000 or it's not single issue related. But I suppose now a genuine anti-establishment movement

00:18:00.000 could form, and indeed they are forming, with more success plainly on the right, I suppose

00:18:05.000 because if you have nationalism...

00:18:07.000 As the defining ideal around which the movement coalesces, whether that's Gert Wilders or your man Javier over there in Argentina.

00:18:16.000 And if indeed there is a broad anti-migration sentiment and we can debate the legitimacy of those feelings and the impact of migration as opposed to something like global corporatism, But I suppose it's harder to counter a movement that has nationalism and even ethno-nationalism around which to formulate itself.

00:18:41.000 And I think that Ireland becomes an interesting example for two reasons.

00:18:44.000 One Matt, the legislation there seems more overt and frightening than elsewhere with

00:18:49.000 the police being granted powers as I understand to sort of invade people's homes and you know

00:18:55.000 seize tech.

00:18:56.000 But also because there are these riots there and also because Ireland is not a colonial

00:19:01.000 superpower.

00:19:03.000 Ireland is an oppressed nation that for years suffered under the kind of tyranny of the

00:19:08.000 British Empire obviously that would be, you know, they should be the beneficiaries of

00:19:12.000 this kind of compassionate and to use a rather lazy word, woke discourse that often undergirds

00:19:19.000 the demand for the implementation of hate legislature.

00:19:23.000 So I suppose what I'm asking them, Matt, is how, where you think, how you think Ethno-nationalism and nationalism might oppose these what seem to me to be ultimately globalist and establishment measures, and whether or not the anti-establishment movement can handle some of the nuances that are overridden by making it a sort of nostalgic and nationalist movement to oppose globalism, I mean.

00:19:55.000 Yeah, I mean, I think, first of all, all these movements A lot of them are beginning to realize that they have something in common in that they're all being targeted by these same structures.

00:20:11.000 The Five Eyes intelligence partners are monitoring the Sanders movement and the DSA in America and Free Palestine movements in the same way that they're following Trump The Boogaloo Boys, you know, we have a new document story coming out this week that shows, you know, a sort of DHS connected organization using phony accounts to infiltrate the Boogaloo Boys.

00:20:46.000 And so I think a lot of these sort of groups that are on the populist right and populist left, they have to realize, and I think they are realizing, That they're being lumped together as similarly as some threats to the established order.

00:21:03.000 And they will be targets of technologies and policies and strategies that are probably not legal in a lot of countries.

00:21:17.000 And they're going to have to find their own ways to communicate.

00:21:23.000 Because they're going to be shut out of the bigger platforms.

00:21:28.000 They will be de-amplified if they happen to get into mainstream news.

00:21:35.000 So I think that's important for these groups.

00:21:37.000 They have to first show that they're legitimate.

00:21:39.000 They have legitimate political grievances.

00:21:42.000 And secondly, they have to broadcast those as loudly as possible and not be dismayed by what's going to happen to them.

00:21:49.000 With these NGOs like CCDH being, it seems, used as tools for various globalist agenda, I wonder if it takes figures with the kind of almost unprecedented power of Elon Musk to oppose them, whether that's through his case against Media Matters, which are themselves an interesting organisation with an interesting history and an interesting funding model, and indeed Musk's pretty unique decision to open up Twitter after his acquisition of it to journalists such as yourself.

00:22:28.000 What does it indicate to us, Matt, that it seems to take Elon Musk?

00:22:32.000 What does that tell us about how global power is moving?

00:22:35.000 And is that cause for optimism or pessimism?

00:22:39.000 Does it mean that sort of ordinary people aligning is becoming less and less sort of relevant?

00:22:45.000 That you sort of almost have to be a tech titan and the world's richest man to be able to sort of stand up against this kind of insidious and invisible power?

00:22:55.000 Yeah, to dent this thing, right?

00:22:57.000 Like that, you know, at minimum, you need a couple of hundred billion dollars, basically.

00:23:03.000 That's, that's a little bit depressing.

00:23:07.000 You know, the overall narrative of this is so interesting, I think, Russell, because when the when the internet arrived, Most people viewed it as this amazing, like, revolutionary tool that was going to bring together all kinds of people all over the world.

00:23:27.000 Like-minded people from, you know, different countries were going to be able to communicate for the first time easily.

00:23:34.000 Political movements could coalesce more easily.

00:23:36.000 But also, like, academic ideas, right?

00:23:39.000 Like, people were going to innovate more.

00:23:41.000 They were going to do more interesting research.

00:23:43.000 I mean, it was this beautiful, liberating thing.

00:23:46.000 And also the internet made it almost impossible for authoritarian countries to have the internet and continue to, you know, to lock down their citizenry.

00:23:57.000 So we looked at it as an inherently democratizing tool that had some characteristics that lean towards, you know, anarchy a little bit, right?

00:24:07.000 You saw that with the Arab Spring, you know, at the drop of a hat, You know, movements could coalesce and like within a matter of days, you could have four big governments toppled.

00:24:19.000 And I think that was the moment when the authorities realized, wow, we have to really get a lockdown on this thing because we just can't allow this to happen.

00:24:31.000 We are too much at risk if the internet is free.

00:24:34.000 And there's a moment in time Where that narrative of the unfettered free internet started to roll back and the internet became a tool of social control, which is I think where it is right now.

00:24:48.000 And, you know, one of the symptoms of that is that the only, you know, you basically have to be Elon Musk in order to break through the You know, homogenous environment, political environment that's been created on the Internet.

00:25:07.000 And even Elon is relatively small potatoes compared to the entire rest of the universe.

00:25:15.000 But the reaction against him is really significant because The whole information sort of cartel doesn't work if there's like one link in the chain missing I think that's that's one of the big reasons why there's been such an intense campaign against him because

00:25:31.000 If there's one opt-out, then there's a place for all kinds of information to still be moving around, and they can't have that.

00:25:39.000 Yes, I see.

00:25:40.000 There is so much potential.

00:25:41.000 So, in his legal battle against Media Matters, is it possible that a victory could be achieved that's so significant that it could have positive repercussions for the rest of us?

00:25:53.000 What is the what who is David Brock?

00:25:56.000 And why is his history important?

00:25:58.000 You know, in particular, his connections to the Clintons, and his involvement, maybe in like, you know, some of the stuff that went on in 2016, some of the the Russiagate stuff, I'm guessing is involved in that.

00:26:10.000 And, and also with media matters, George Soros, is he some sort of international supervillain?

00:26:16.000 What's what's going on with these, like these figures that appear to be organizing around this sort of Well, Soros I'm not really an expert in, but David Brock, I've been in media a long time.

00:26:34.000 I've covered some really loathsome people.

00:26:37.000 I've shook the hands of some really loathsome people in my life, and I'm not easily shocked.

00:26:46.000 He's one of the more breathtakingly off-putting human beings I've ever encountered.

00:26:54.000 I mean, I've never met the man, but just his record is astonishing.

00:26:58.000 If you go back to the 90s, and he wrote, he gleefully wrote about all this in, you know, books that he published.

00:27:06.000 He was basically the hit man for the Republican Party in, uh, in the United States.

00:27:14.000 He was behind media campaigns against everyone, uh, from Anita Hill to the Clintons.

00:27:22.000 He basically organized a lot of the campaigns to highlight things like the Lewinsky scandal.

00:27:32.000 And then allegedly he had some kind of religious conversion or politically religious conversion.

00:27:39.000 He admitted all of this in books like Confessions of a Political Hitman, I think it was what it was called.

00:27:46.000 And then Switch sides.

00:27:48.000 He became the hitman for the blue team.

00:27:53.000 And I'm not exactly sure when that happened, but he created Media Matters pretty early.

00:27:58.000 I guess that was in 2004.

00:28:00.000 But Media Matters didn't become an important political force, I don't think, until the Trump years.

00:28:06.000 Like a really important one.

00:28:08.000 And what they're accused of here, and I have to stress that It's an accusation, right?

00:28:14.000 Like, you know, for the purpose of the lawsuit, you have to assume that these things are true, you know, just to get past the first part of the suit.

00:28:21.000 But we don't know if it's true, right?

00:28:23.000 But they're accused basically of faking the creation of fringe hate speech and making it look like major advertisers were appearing next to those accounts so that they could then report on that Um, and then tell other organizations that it had happened, which led to boycotts of the platform.

00:28:49.000 Now, without commenting on that specific case, I can tell you that that's something that we've seen on the internet.

00:28:57.000 We saw on the Twitter files more than once.

00:29:00.000 It's sort of fake news is created.

00:29:02.000 The same people who were behind the fake news, right about it.

00:29:07.000 Then they get somebody else to react to it.

00:29:11.000 It's sort of the opposite of media, right?

00:29:13.000 Like, media is designed to tell you the truth. 0.87

00:29:16.000 This is designed to, like, throw a bunch of crap into the internet and impact politics that way.

00:29:23.000 And the only defense against that is a free press, but they want to lock that down, too. 0.97

00:29:27.000 So these people are very dangerous.

00:29:32.000 Yeah, that sounds frightening.

00:29:33.000 There's some interesting and well, I don't know about nefarious figures emerging and that practice of being able to, in this instance, create what seems like a visual affiliation between advertisers And fringe groups, extremist groups, right-wing groups.

00:29:55.000 It's an interesting attack.

00:29:57.000 But it seems, yeah, from the moment Elon Musk... I remember that Elon Musk was seen for a while as a kind of techno-eccentric Willy Wonka of the cosmos.

00:30:08.000 colonizing Mars. I can make cars run on hiccups."

00:30:12.000 Like he was like, oh, this guy's gonna be great.

00:30:15.000 You know, and then suddenly he acquired a social media platform.

00:30:19.000 And it's weird. I've had this sense for a long time, you know,

00:30:22.000 as Mexican folk used to say in California, I didn't cross the line, the line crossed us.

00:30:28.000 That there's just been this sort of creeping line of what's sayable and permissible now.

00:30:33.000 And suddenly I found myself in alliance with groups I never thought I would be in alliance with,

00:30:39.000 just because to be anti-establishment now requires all sorts of new affinities.

00:30:46.000 Like, at one time I never thought I would find myself having...

00:30:49.000 I didn't think I'd find myself getting on with Tucker Carlson.

00:30:53.000 And now, like with the escalation of events in the Middle East, there are new fractures, new fissures, new fragmentation.

00:30:59.000 It really feels like a time of annihilation.

00:31:02.000 Matt, can you tell us a little bit About the new Twitter files and the election integrity partnership that sounds so sort of bureaucratic and has the word integrity in it and normally a sort of diagnostic tool that I've learned in my own short time in journalism is if something's calling itself the trusted news initiative or the friendly cuddly bunny party you should probably get yourself a bunker

00:31:32.000 Oh yeah, no.

00:31:39.000 Now as soon as I see the word trust, I just assume the person's lying.

00:31:44.000 Which is not a healthy reaction, but it's kind of evidence of the Orwellian world we live in.

00:31:50.000 Yeah, Michael Schellenberger at Public, with whom I testified in Congress earlier this year and then also again this week, we'll be doing the same thing.

00:32:03.000 We got hold of a large new trove of documents involving something called the Cyber Threat Initiative League, or CTI League.

00:32:16.000 And this is like the precursor organization to that Um, election and tech integrity partnership.

00:32:24.000 It involves people from the Pentagon, from DHS, from the FBI.

00:32:31.000 There's a woman from the UK who was central in creating this group, but it really lays out in tremendous detail, like what the thinking and strategy of all these anti-disinformation people are.

00:32:46.000 They're talking about creating fake sock puppet accounts to infiltrate groups they don't like.

00:32:51.000 They're saying, we're going to be doing the same things that the bad guys are doing.

00:32:55.000 Um, you know, they're openly talking about, uh, you know, describing Republicans as needing reprogramming.

00:33:06.000 Um, and you know, there's just all kinds of stuff in, in, in these documents that I think are when people see them, The Twitter files were important because they showed, they proved a link between this kind of stuff and official agencies like the FBI and Homeland Security.

00:33:26.000 This, I mean, there were like whole quotes about, well, we need to do this in a quasi private way because the Department of Defense can't do it legally.

00:33:37.000 And, you know, Department of Homeland Security doesn't have the capability.

00:33:43.000 And the Global Engagement Center only has $250 million.

00:33:46.000 So they're not going to be very capable either.

00:33:48.000 So it needs to be done by people like us who aren't officially, you know, attached to anybody.

00:33:55.000 And that's kind of the model for how these things work.

00:33:57.000 You see these NGOs that look independent, behind the scenes, they're working with, you know, intelligence groups and enforcement agencies.

00:34:05.000 And they believe, they really believe that, you know, sort of domestic political movements,

00:34:12.000 like whether it's Trump in America or Corbyn in the UK, that those things are threats in the same way

00:34:19.000 that the terrorists are.

00:34:21.000 And we see that in these documents and it's pretty shocking.

00:34:24.000 Yes, it's interesting how often there are apparently independent organizations

00:34:31.000 that are advocating for ending hate speech or for a fairer and more just world

00:34:36.000 that are actually merely a conduit for power and that becomes discernible through their funding.

00:34:43.000 And then you find sock puppet accounts that are supposed to be legitimate independent individuals, but they too are a conduit for the same power.

00:34:51.000 And it seems like whether or not a popular or anti-establishment figure emerges from the left-wing space using left-wing rhetoric or the opposing space using the appropriate rhetoric there, that they will be opposed.

00:35:05.000 And it seems now that Whatever language is required to legitimise the foreclosure of those groups can immediately be accessed and defined.

00:35:14.000 In our time it seems to be, I suppose, the power of identity politics, and I mention that only because of how it might relate to hate speech, is that it's by its nature Divisive.

00:35:26.000 It's divisive not only in terms of ethnographics, but also in terms of time.

00:35:33.000 It indicates that the culture moves at a pace where it's pretty clear, I would say, and this is just a guess, that generally, I would imagine, America is a less racist place than it was 50 years ago, and the UK is a less racist place than it was 50, 60 years ago, and I would say that of most Western countries, and yet there is this feeling that the tension is being amplified.

00:35:57.000 And I suppose it's going to... I watched the British, I guess, right-wing, certainly nationalist, populist figure Tommy Robinson yesterday being arrested for his attendance of a essentially a pro-Israel march, I guess is what it was.

00:36:13.000 And I thought, wow!

00:36:16.000 In the end, we're going to have to... The only way, I think, to form the kind of alliances that are going to be required in order to oppose centralised authoritarianism is by accepting that you know like ideas that you sort of simply don't agree with that there would be communities that are like we are a ethnically defined community whether that's you know like an ethnic community of african americans somewhere in america or

00:36:46.000 Communities that are organised around religion or culture or sexual identity or progressivism.

00:36:51.000 Seems like, how else is this tension ever going to be diffused without the alternative otherwise is to yield to some centralised authority that's going to, as you said earlier, determine what hate speech is.

00:37:05.000 Un-person practitioners of it.

00:37:08.000 I don't see The same way as they enter into these wars without giving you a vision of, and this is how we beat Russia eventually, and Ukraine joins NATO and it doesn't need to lead to a nuclear war, or this is how we involve Iran in this conflict and it doesn't cause some massive, terrible apocalypse in the Middle East.

00:37:25.000 There's no vision, is there, Matt?

00:37:27.000 There's only sort of attempts to manage, control, shut down, curtail.

00:37:32.000 sort of a desperate attempt to continually oppose what seems to be organically happening

00:37:38.000 just as a result of one, total lack of trust in authority, whether it's state or media or corporate,

00:37:44.000 two, the ability to organise differently as demonstrated by the Arab Spring and even

00:37:51.000 in terms of the corporate space, Napster.

00:37:55.000 There were examples how the online space was going to collapse existing power centres.

00:38:00.000 Independent media collapsing existing media power centres.

00:38:04.000 And to oppose that, these new categories have to be invented to sort of roll back what appears to be the Natural, if you can say natural, trajectory of more accessibility to comms.

00:38:17.000 So these new ideologies have to be legitimised through, yeah, I suppose a number of measures, but it seems the one at the moment that's important, certainly when you watch coverage of that riot in Dublin, you hear the sort of Garda, the Irish police say, there's a far-right extremist faction in Ireland that we have to shut down.

00:38:37.000 That doesn't make sense in terms of Irish politics or Irish history.

00:38:41.000 Or a figure like Tommy Robinson with whom I'm sure I would disagree on religion and gender and all sorts of stuff I'm sure but getting arrested as he arrives at a protest.

00:38:57.000 Yeah, and you even see, actually Matt, sorry to go on, but in normal legacy media reporting, you say, like I saw a pundit say the other day on MSNBC, in order to prevent fascism, you have to vote for the Democrats in this election cycle.

00:39:13.000 You can't vote for Cornel West or you're voting for Trump.

00:39:17.000 So they're sort of, in a sense, fashioning a kind of tyranny with the aesthetics of progressivism.

00:39:26.000 Right, yeah.

00:39:27.000 That's exactly what they're doing.

00:39:28.000 They're leaving you with one acceptable choice.

00:39:32.000 Everything else is outside the trust tree.

00:39:37.000 You should be afraid to be seen in those circles.

00:39:43.000 There might be consequences for you to be in those places.

00:39:48.000 In order to get there, in order to get people to accept Those ideas, they have to, as you say, they have to radically change how Western people think because we're not, if you're old enough especially, we're not conditioned to think that, thinking that way.

00:40:01.000 Like, I certainly would, will never be able to accept total curtailment of speech rights or, you know, this idea that I can only think a certain way or only vote for a certain person or otherwise I'm, You know, a threat or an enemy?

00:40:20.000 Like, that's not how we've been raised to think.

00:40:23.000 We see this in these documents, by the way.

00:40:25.000 There's like a Pentagon official who's talking sort of admiringly about the Chinese information landscape, saying that, you know, you have to change the narratives for people way before you get to the point of removing content.

00:40:42.000 The average Chinese citizen does not think that he or she is being censored because they've been conditioned for so long to accept the environment that they're in, that for them, it's just, oh, government's making good or bad decisions for us.

00:40:57.000 You know, let's just go along with it.

00:40:59.000 Well, you see, in America, especially, that line you talked about has already moved pretty significantly.

00:41:04.000 Like, once upon a time, we would never have even We would never have read news like, you know, certain kinds of marches have been declared illegal, like in France, like, you know, the pro-Palestine marches, you know, or that certain kinds of speech has been declared illegal.

00:41:25.000 We would have thought, regarded that with shock, not even that long ago.

00:41:31.000 Now, they've slowly conditioned us to this idea that yes, some things can be illegal.

00:41:36.000 Some things can be taken down from the internet without due process.

00:41:41.000 We don't even need to have a criminal case against somebody to accuse them of incitement or anything like that.

00:41:48.000 We can take off even the President of the United States without a trial or a lawsuit or anything.

00:41:55.000 And that's just the way it is.

00:41:56.000 And you're going to accept it.

00:41:57.000 And people do accept it.

00:41:58.000 And that's what's so scary about this.

00:42:01.000 It's not even just the thing that they're doing.

00:42:04.000 It's that they've been so successful in changing the way people think about all this stuff through their relentless attention to these issues.

00:42:15.000 And that's really scary.

00:42:17.000 It's curious that the pandemic provided a window, I think, into the ordinary format of powers, movements and functioning.

00:42:28.000 For example, I suppose the point of origin for Yielding civil liberties at the advent of the pandemic was human life is sacred.

00:42:39.000 And collectively, we have a value that means that individually, I should give up my individual freedom.

00:42:46.000 And I should be willing to take certain medications, you know, basically without question for the common good.

00:42:55.000 This idea of the common good, bringing that to the forefront in the pandemic era, I felt intuitively, was a risky idea because it's an idea that is

00:43:05.000 mostly removed from common understanding and common discourse. Mostly we live

00:43:12.000 in an atomized society, you live as an individual, the pursuit of your

00:43:15.000 individual pleasure is your primary goal in life, you live through the consuming

00:43:20.000 of products, that's where you get your identity from. We've gone quite far down

00:43:24.000 that road and economically those are going to be, I think, untenable

00:43:27.000 ideas as we experience the kind of economic decline that seems to be accelerating

00:43:31.000 and the sort of infrastructural disrupture that's taking place in your

00:43:36.000 country and mine. But throughout that period, with that idea in mind, the sanctity

00:43:41.000 of human life, we very quickly accept...

00:43:44.000 They were very quickly, and I say they, the establishment, the media, were very quickly able to normalise measures that in a country like China can just be implemented because of years of comparable social control.

00:43:56.000 But as people learned that there were...

00:43:59.000 good deal of discrepancies and downright lies throughout it, from the origin of the virus

00:44:04.000 to the efficacy of the medications, to the consequences of taking those medications,

00:44:09.000 to the reliability of the media. Countermeasures dismissed and the efficacy of them denied.

00:44:16.000 I think what we're seeing now is, in some quarters at least, a willingness to disobey.

00:44:23.000 So I suppose the function of the media now has to be to continue to create a climate of crisis.

00:44:30.000 Even if it's just through the manipulation of semantics that suddenly hate speech, oh my god there's hate speech, we have to do something about hate speech.

00:44:41.000 Yeah.

00:44:42.000 Do you see where I'm sort of going with it, Matt?

00:44:44.000 That you have to turn that into a kind of ever-present crisis in order to legitimize whatever measures it requires.

00:44:52.000 And I know that something that I've seen sort of in my notes here is you were talking about the CTI league.

00:44:56.000 I don't know if you've touched upon that.

00:44:59.000 Yeah, I think it's part of the revelations that you've just made and maybe forthcoming revelations that you and Schellenberger are making.

00:45:06.000 What is the CTI League and how does it relate to what I was just saying?

00:45:10.000 The normalization of measures that would otherwise be seen as egregious.

00:45:14.000 Like you said, certain protests being banned or certain speech being banned is not something we would have tolerated 10 years ago.

00:45:20.000 Yeah, I mean, again, the CTI League is this group that was formed You know, officially to address COVID misinformation and disinformation, but we see in the internal documents that they were actually involved in anything related to current events, especially the elections.

00:45:42.000 And you're right, they absolutely like their raison d'etre was the health emergency.

00:45:49.000 But internally, they were doing everything from following followers of Trump to following Free Gaza protests to following the Democratic Socialists of America.

00:46:00.000 And yes, it's the climate of emergency is central to this whole concept.

00:46:09.000 Because, you know, if you're raised in a Western liberal democracy grounded in Enlightenment values.

00:46:19.000 The whole idea is that human history had shown us that when power is concentrated too much, the individual's rights are constantly violated.

00:46:32.000 And in order to protect against that, we have to make sure that power is diffuse, that people have self-determination, that they have participation in their own Political destiny.

00:46:42.000 I mean, that's the entire idea behind the American system, for instance, right?

00:46:47.000 But these people want to reverse that.

00:46:50.000 They openly want to change how we think about that particular issue.

00:46:58.000 They think that focusing on individual rights at the expense of the collective is dangerous, and therefore we have to, you know, change How people think, even about everything from hate speech to threat to informed consent in medicine.

00:47:17.000 You know, once doctors cared intensely about informed consent, after World War II, after what we found out about happened in the concentration camps, you know, the Nuremberg Accords made it mandatory, like, for every civilized country to have informed consent with medicines.

00:47:36.000 But when the COVID vaccine came along, There was a strong public relations campaign like, no, just take the shot.

00:47:43.000 And you know, you don't need to know exactly what the results are, whether there have been side effects or not.

00:47:51.000 That's not your concern.

00:47:54.000 That's our concern.

00:47:55.000 Right?

00:47:56.000 And that's totally antithetical to how we think in free societies, but they want to change that.

00:48:01.000 Like that's, that's a necessity for them to change that.

00:48:04.000 And, and they will, you know, unless there's significant opposition.

00:48:08.000 Bloody hell yeah it's not um it isn't um what do you want to say hyperbolic then to refer to it as kind of social engineering that our behavior is being altered and you can see how that can be done quite easily just through the very obvious um introduction of new technology it just would have been unthinkable that we would have you know tagged ourselves in the way we do through tech handover information in the way we do through through our phones and stuff so when you start Adding ideological tags to that, that's fascinating.

00:48:39.000 I've got a few questions and comments to pass on from our community.

00:48:42.000 One is, does Matt from Jim Earthsea in our community, does Matt think the silver lining of COVID could be the starting of a revolution as it's awakened previously idle people?

00:48:54.000 Then this is from Testimony.

00:48:56.000 This is like a comment rather than a question.

00:48:58.000 The internet was a CIA project.

00:49:00.000 It's literally designed to conduct surveillance and distribute propaganda.

00:49:04.000 I'd like you to tell me if that's true from Testimony or it's just a sort of a rumor from the dark edges of the internet.

00:49:13.000 And what did you think about the comment about this COVID silver lining as well as that CIA internet comment?

00:49:20.000 Um, you know, on the CIA internet front, I mean, obviously the internet had defense roots.

00:49:27.000 I don't know that it was necessarily exactly created specifically with social control in mind.

00:49:32.000 I think it was initially created as a means for factions of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines to communicate with one another efficiently.

00:49:43.000 And once they figured out how to do that, I don't know a whole lot about that history, though, so I probably shouldn't comment on it.

00:49:52.000 I will say, though, that when it was introduced, it did have, for a while, a very liberating impact on a lot of places around the world.

00:50:03.000 I mean, I saw this in Russia.

00:50:05.000 I was there when it was Soviet and then I was there when it was, uh, you know, post-Soviet and the internet was really important in teaching Russians, um, all these new values.

00:50:17.000 So, um, as for COVID being the start of a revolution, I think you did see that there were an awful lot of people, um, around the world who, who became, um, angry at the system in new ways because of, What happened during the pandemic, they became mistrustful of authority.

00:50:42.000 And we're talking about like ordinary small town, like old ladies and moms who don't care about politics. 1.00

00:50:51.000 Now they do, right?

00:50:52.000 And that's interesting.

00:50:54.000 I hope that energy, you know, goes somewhere because I, I frankly find this terrifying.

00:51:00.000 Like one of the things we see in these documents, there's a ton of these sort of corporate marketing types who are involved in these projects, and they're applying technologies that they use to monitor how people feel about their products.

00:51:16.000 Like, does this, they use algorithms to analyze, does this social media post make people feel good or bad about software X, right?

00:51:26.000 Now they're applying that to how people feel about their governments, how people feel about government policies, and they're dividing everything into These binary categories, friend, foe, positive, negative, you know, with us, against us.

00:51:45.000 Again, that's totally antithetical to what we think of in a traditionally democratic society.

00:51:52.000 We think, well, there's a lot of us with lots of different ideas, and collectively, we all get somewhere really cool together.

00:52:00.000 They do not think that way at all.

00:52:01.000 They think there's one North Star truth And everybody who's on the other side of that is wrong and needs to be suppressed.

00:52:10.000 And that's, to me, that's the beginning of, like, authoritarianism for real.

00:52:15.000 And that's scary as hell.

00:52:17.000 Yeah, authoritarianism and sort of at least one definition of fascism, you know, the state corporations and media coming together.

00:52:25.000 In Lee Fang's piece about Moderna, which I obviously paid a special interest to because I was in it, it showed like how yet another NGO, I think they were called something like the PGA, have been set up and how that Moderna have been employing former FBI agents or at least FBI operatives and how Moderna are spending a lot of money observing online dissent and are looking to control shadow banks.

00:52:53.000 I can't believe that a company that didn't exist a couple of years ago are targeting dissenters online and have the compliance of the government, have the compliance of social media sites.

00:53:06.000 That, again, and obviously something that's affected me personally, is an indication that this is escalating, I suppose because it has the capacity to escalate, into Inconceivable territory now, doesn't it, Matt?

00:53:19.000 Oh, absolutely.

00:53:20.000 And one of the scary things about that sort of Moderna piece is, look, the people who do this kind of work, the anti-disinformation work, a lot of them don't know anything about anything except what they do.

00:53:35.000 But they have no problem whatsoever deciding that PHDX is wrong about the vaccine or wrong about this side effect, while health official Y is absolutely right.

00:53:51.000 And so they have these sort of pre-packaged ideas about things.

00:53:57.000 They have no specific expertise in anything, but they rely entirely on this idea that, well, Moderna is, let's just say they're an officially sanctioned partner in the vaccination effort.

00:54:13.000 So, They're right.

00:54:15.000 And critics of them are wrong.

00:54:18.000 Again, it's just that they're creating these dichotomies.

00:54:21.000 And life isn't like that.

00:54:22.000 Like in journalism, we're always trained to think of things as well.

00:54:28.000 Typically, there's a little bit of right on all sides of the equation, right?

00:54:33.000 Like people, we never really, we rarely see Pure 100% right and pure 100% wrong.

00:54:42.000 It's always like a mishmash of things.

00:54:45.000 And they don't see it that way.

00:54:48.000 It's just a whole bunch of people who don't have any real knowledge except about this technology and about this sort of expertise deciding all kinds of questions.

00:54:59.000 They have no business deciding for people.

00:55:01.000 That's the thing that's terrifying to me.

00:55:04.000 Power, even energy, requires polarity.

00:55:09.000 And you talked about the need for diffuse power models in order to have democracy, autonomy, individual freedom.

00:55:16.000 So I can see how these emergent dichotomies are ways to centralise power, that it's beneficial to create.

00:55:24.000 Oppositionism in order to centralise power, almost on the level of physics.

00:55:28.000 Got another question here for you from Jamie Jam in our community.

00:55:32.000 With all of the censorship laws being enacted, DSA and others, including in Australia, how far do you think things will go until there's a pushback from people?

00:55:40.000 Will masses of people be charged, tried, imprisoned for years until people push back against it?

00:55:46.000 Do you think it's going to play out like the McCarthy era?

00:55:48.000 That's from Jamie Jam, Matt.

00:55:51.000 That's a great question, Jamie.

00:55:53.000 I mean, I would hope that if there's going to be a confrontation like that, I would think it would be in the United States because we have a very unique tradition with speech in this country.

00:55:53.000 I don't know.

00:56:10.000 And it's something that was taught to all of us at a very young age.

00:56:17.000 Nobody's allowed to tell you what to think or do.

00:56:19.000 Like, you have the right to your own opinions.

00:56:21.000 That's the very first thing, right, you're guaranteed as an American citizen.

00:56:28.000 The right not only to have an opinion, but to petition the government for a redress of whatever your complaints are.

00:56:35.000 So if it's going to happen, I would think it would happen here.

00:56:38.000 But what I'm seeing recently, especially, is that There's this incredible apathy and pessimism, and I don't know where that comes from, but it's really frightening.

00:56:54.000 I always feel optimistic about people in general.

00:56:58.000 I think that even in the worst situations, they just will not put up with things endlessly.

00:57:03.000 I don't know how you feel about this, Russell, but even my experience watching Russians They put up with an awful lot for an awful long time and eventually they just said, you know, screw this. 0.99

00:57:13.000 And I think that's going to happen with this stuff eventually.

00:57:17.000 But whether that's going to be now or in 30 years, that's the question.

00:57:21.000 Sometimes I feel even when there are protests that spill into riots, there is an indication that there's a sublimated energy that's just waiting to be released.

00:57:34.000 I first noticed it When in the you know I'd always got a protest when I was like younger for like the dockers union in Liverpool I was I ended up there by mistake actually just because I was out and it was happening I was like oh my god this is so exciting and then mayday sort of socialist protests in the UK and I used to enjoy that kind of stuff and then

00:57:54.000 Like in like I think it was 2011 in the UK a man was murdered in police custody in London and it sparked first local riots then riots across London that led of course to sort of looting and stuff and then across the whole nation there were riots in sort of disparate riots across cities.

00:58:14.000 I thought what is this underlying energy that's been released by the the ignition of this event and of course its expression was diffuse and of course you know people were stealing you know sneakers and phones and stuff like that might you you know but I felt that what was underneath it was a kind of anger and a dissatisfaction and even the nihilistic expression of it was an indication that of a culture and a society that had lost its way and once again Matt and this is you know getting on for 15 years ago that

00:58:50.000 What was interesting is the way the judiciary, then under soon-to-be Prime Minister Keir Starmer, just responded.

00:58:57.000 Then people were on trial, like, the next day.

00:58:59.000 They were arresting people en masse.

00:59:01.000 They had courts running through the night.

00:59:03.000 There were people getting, like, long prison sentences for sort of stealing, like, bottles of water.

00:59:09.000 It was like the system just fired up.

00:59:12.000 We do not do this.

00:59:14.000 We do not have spontaneous uprising.

00:59:16.000 Because it's, yeah, like, what we all know is, you know, to sort of semi-quote Gandhi, is like, you know, a few million British people cannot control a billion Indians if those Indians refuse to cooperate. 0.85

00:59:31.000 Because we are so disparate, distracted, and like you say, the apathy that's engendered, I think, by losing tradition, losing connection to family, losing connection to God, or highest ideal, or whatever you want to call God, the God principle.

00:59:45.000 People don't have it in them anymore.

00:59:47.000 But you're right, it can lay dormant even for decades, like your example in Russia.

00:59:53.000 And once it goes, that's it.

00:59:54.000 Then it cannot be stopped.

00:59:57.000 And then the negotiation starts.

00:59:59.000 How do we get these people back in line?

01:00:00.000 How do we get them back in some sort of paddock?

01:00:05.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:00:07.000 There's a point at which they can't just put everybody in jail, right?

01:00:12.000 They can't punish everybody.

01:00:16.000 When it gets to the point where people just will not go to work or they will not go along, that's when you have what happened in the late 80s with the collapse of the wall.

01:00:29.000 That's when you had, you know, the Arab Spring happened pretty quickly, and that's because those countries, there was an enormous amount of discontent that was simmering.

01:00:36.000 Didn't take much, right?

01:00:38.000 I think what people missed about episodes like Brexit, you know, the election of Donald Trump, the rise of Corbyn, also in the UK, but also all those populist moments that you mentioned, movements in Europe, you know, Syriza, Podemos, Those are all symptoms of people being deeply pissed off and sometimes they don't even know why.

01:01:06.000 I mean, I remember interviewing people at Trump events and I would ask them like, why are, so why, why this guy?

01:01:12.000 Why, why would you vote for this guy?

01:01:13.000 I'm like, I don't know.

01:01:15.000 He's not a politician.

01:01:16.000 Like, what do you want out of this?

01:01:18.000 And they're just like, I just want them all to suffer.

01:01:21.000 You know what I mean?

01:01:22.000 They would say crazy things like that, but that's, that's out there.

01:01:25.000 That's out there in big numbers.

01:01:26.000 Right.

01:01:27.000 And.

01:01:28.000 No amount of covering it up is going to make it go away.

01:01:31.000 So, yeah, I think it'll eventually find its expression, hopefully in a positive way.

01:01:37.000 Cool.

01:01:38.000 Matt Taibbi, thank you so much for joining us today.

01:01:41.000 Thanks for answering questions from our community as well as from me.

01:01:44.000 I always feel better educated and more optimistic after I speak to you.

01:01:48.000 Thank you very much.

01:01:49.000 Excellent.

01:01:50.000 Thank you, Russell.

01:01:52.000 Thank you very much, Matt Taibbi, as always.

01:01:54.000 And of course, if you want to ask questions to our guests, become an AwakendWonder.

01:01:58.000 Press the red button.

01:01:59.000 You can find Matt's work on Substack at racket dot, well, www dot.

01:02:04.000 Do we still say that in 2023?

01:02:05.000 www dot.

01:02:08.000 Racket dot news.

01:02:10.000 Next week we've got Steve Kirsch coming on the show talking to us about vaccines, sudden death, Fauci.

01:02:16.000 He's even willing to put a hundred thousand dollars on the line for a debate about Covid vaccine safety and I'll find out what MIT means by then as well.

01:02:24.000 Click the red button to become an Awakened Wonder so you can join us live for that as well as Greetings with the Lord.

01:02:31.000 Whether you are a follower of JC and the almighty forces in the Old Testament, or the single force, of course, that's what monotheism is, or you might love the Bhagavad Gita, we join together to... Remember in the conversation when I was saying about where you're going to get the energy from?

01:02:45.000 You're going to get the energy from God, is where you're going to get the energy from.

01:02:48.000 You're going to summon it up from your belly, baby, and we're going to learn how to do that together.

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01:02:58.000 Messineo, and Doggydoo.

01:03:00.000 Welcome!

01:03:01.000 You're saved, you're on the arc, we're heading to a glorious new future together.

01:03:06.000 Join us next week, not for more of the same, but for more of the different.

01:03:09.000 Until then, if you can, stay free.

01:03:11.000 Many Switches Switch on, Switch off

01:03:14.000 Many Switches Switch on, Switch off

01:03:17.000 Many Switches Switch on, switch off.

01:03:23.000 Man, he's switching.

Stay Free - Russel Brand - December 01, 2023

“The System Will SHUT YOU DOWN!” Matt Taibbi On Populist Uprising, Musk & UK Files - Stay Free #258

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