In this episode, Dr Heidi Horvick and Dr. Jerome Poupel talk about a recent study that shows the neurological impact of certain aspects of chiropractic, their impact on pain, sleep, psychology and wellness more broadly. They discuss the importance of having a control group in a randomized clinical trial, and the role of the brain in regulating pain and sleep. They also discuss the benefits to the mind, body and the mind of a chiropractor and how they can improve overall well-being. This episode is brought to you by Massage Therapists, a high-priced, high-specialised Massage and Wellness company that specialises in the treatment of pain, neck, back and shoulder problems. Massage Therapy is the world's largest and most respected specialty Massage & Wellness practice, with over 15,000 therapists across the world. They offer a wide range of consultations, consultations, and consultations for a wide variety of conditions, including back, neck and back pain, headaches, neck problems, back pain and headaches, sleep problems, anxiety, insomnia, stress, depression, anxiety and post-coaching, and sleep problems. They are the leading experts in their field, and are one of the few people in the world that can provide the most comprehensive and up-to-date evidence-based care for these conditions. We hope you enjoy the episode, and that you find some value in this episode. If you do, please share it with a friend, colleague, colleague or family member! or a loved one who needs a chiropractor. Thank you for listening to this podcast. - Dr. Heidi & Dr. Poupell - thank you for supporting the podcast and keep listening to us! - your support is greatly appreciated. Timestamps: 5:00 - What do you think of the podcast? 6:30 - How do you feel about chiropractics? 7:20 - What would you like to see me recommend to someone else? 8:15 - What are you would like to hear from me? 9:40 - What is your favourite chiropractor? 11: What's your favourite part of the chiropractor's work? 14:00: Why do you want to get the best care? 15:00 16:00- What is the best kind of care you get? 17:30- How do I know you re getting better?
00:00:00.000Joining me now are Dr. Heidi Horvick and Jerome Poupel to talk about a recent study that shows the neurological impact of certain aspects of chiropractic, their impact on pain, sleep, psychology and wellness more broadly.
00:00:35.000Also, because we have found in the past that we can change prefrontal cortex processing when we're adjusting spines with chiropractic care.
00:00:43.000But what's unique is, well, what kind of functions is that impacting?
00:00:51.000And it was a four-week clinical trial.
00:00:52.000So a lot of the research that we've done in the past 20 years has been pre and post one adjustment session.
00:00:57.000So again it was really new and novel that we were looking at four weeks of chiropractic care.
00:01:02.000We had two groups that had a control group that didn't experience the treatment.
00:01:07.000In this case from Jerome who is accompanying us today.
00:01:11.000Why was it important for this to take place over a period of time and what was the significance of having a control group and what number were you working with?
00:01:18.000So, we wanted to have people that are randomized into a control group or an active group, because that's when you can find out what's actually changing.
00:01:29.000That's when you find out what's really changing with the chiropractic care.
00:01:33.000So, for example, if you were just following one group that got the chiropractic care from Jerome, well, was it just a coincidence?
00:01:40.000How do you know it was actually the care that was provided?
00:01:42.000So, if you have the control group, then you know that the changes that take place in the chiropractic group only, that they're the real change, it's because of what he's
00:01:49.000Right? So we had about 50, no? How many people were there?
00:01:55.000Yeah, so it's about 60 total, randomised into one group or the other.
00:01:59.000So one's randomised into the control group, which is really like a waiting group.
00:02:03.000So they wait, you know, because he's only one person, so it could take some time
00:02:06.000before you can come in and get to see him.
00:02:08.000Whereas really, they were our control group.
00:02:10.000So they were just having, we tested them before and afterwards, but they didn't know that that was actually what we wanted from them, was the nothing, the period of nothing.
00:02:20.000They were being tested on nothingness.
00:02:23.000So you could compare nothing to the impact of Jerome.
00:02:26.000I suppose it's necessary to get some clinical data on chiropractic more broadly as it's regarded, generally speaking, with some scepticism, am I right in saying, by the medical establishment and even some cynicism and derision.
00:02:38.000What were you able to provide with this study, albeit a limited one, that enables you to confront that scepticism?
00:02:46.000I think a lot of the enlightened people these days are well aware of how well chiropractic care can work, but the fact that it works the way it does, like the fact that a lot of people are aware that we can change and help people with back pain, neck pain and headaches, that's quite well documented in the literature.
00:03:04.000And actually it's fantastic when you think of the problems with opioid drugs, right?
00:03:09.000So there's a huge benefit to go and see the chiropractor first.
00:03:13.000But the fact that most people don't know how it works or the fact that we're actually changing the person's brain so the person's brain is better able to perceive what's going on in the body and the world around it and therefore can control the whole system better.
00:03:25.000So what you're contesting is that chiropractic is not just mechanical or skeletal but neurological.
00:03:31.000Yes, yes and I think fundamentally so and I think that's why it takes a bit of time as well.
00:03:36.000So we found in quite a few of our studies and quite a few of other people's studies as well that the effects of chiropractic care, they kind of keep on going.
00:03:43.000So you have maybe just six weeks of chiropractic care in your study and then you follow them over time and they're just getting better and better.
00:03:49.000So you've changed something fundamental in their operating system, which is the brain, right?
00:04:04.000I think if you're going to do the study, which is so expensive to do, you kind of want your best people to provide the care.
00:04:12.000But it's hard to get someone that's, you know, that's willing to do that, right?
00:04:15.000Because in a lot of studies ideally you provide the care for free and that's a lot of time out of practice, so that's basically donating a hell of a lot of your time and money.
00:04:26.000I'd like to ask you, Germaine, why is it that you agreed to participate in this study, mate?
00:04:33.000Well, I actually had the vision of this study 7 years ago, so I had this... I thought about this 7 years ago more or less while I was doing racehorses in Ireland and one day I saw a video of Heidi, a film that you did on your research, and I loved what I saw.
00:04:50.000So then you gave me the inspiration to try to meet you.
00:04:53.000And then from there, I thought, well, when I'm ready, I'd like to do a research of all the work I've done all those years, which is called NeuroProcare work.
00:05:03.000And all the amazing people I learned from, all the scientists and doctors and healers and naturopaths and chiropractors and kinesiologists, all those people that I learned from.
00:05:12.000And I spent a long time putting it together.
00:05:15.000And I thought, if one day I were to teach it, or maybe, you know, all the results I've discovered over the years with people, I thought it would be great to research it with someone that I think is amazing and would also be able to open the door to a new reality, a new reality show.
00:05:31.000So it was a vision and then after all those years we finally, after COVID, it could happen two years before that but we had an issue with that and maybe it was going to be in New Zealand, maybe it's going to be in Henley and it turned out to be in Henley-on-Thames which is perfect and we did it last year and I'm so happy that Finally, we're getting some data step by step and it's finalized.
00:05:55.000So it was a vision with the right person and it came at the right place at the right time and it was a new experience for me to do research and to prepare and to take care of people.
00:06:12.000And obviously, you know, there's a lot of equipment and technology involved and time and effort.
00:06:17.000So it was a challenge, but I was exhausted.
00:06:20.000A lot of the work you do, Jerome, if I could say, seems pretty crazy.
00:06:25.000Even when you're having the practice, you know, like Jerome puts vials on you, gives kinesiological tests to you, makes you put on different colored sunglasses for things.
00:06:36.000Even the fact that Jerome in his first answer said that he treats racehorses is not like a normal thing to hear, as well as elite athletes and racing drivers.
00:06:45.000Jerome, can you tell me a little bit about what you mean when you say that you treat different levels, the physical plane, the mental plane?
00:06:53.000This doesn't sound like normal, verifiable medicine where you can just say, you know, for example, take this tablet, it will have this impact, or have this injection, it will have that impact.
00:07:02.000Well, I think that, first of all, there are different levels of healing.
00:07:05.000And people have to understand there are, let's say, five levels of healing.
00:07:08.000And the five levels of healing are this concept where everybody has some truth, from medicine, auto-molecular biology, from chemistry, from herbal remedy, from supplements.
00:07:31.000But the physical body is orchestrated by what we call the energy body, where it's all Tibetan and Chinese thinking of this, which is we bring the East and the West together, which is always a good thing.
00:07:42.000But basically there's a lot of, you know, when you do MRI scan or PET scan, you're actually into the atoms and molecules, you're tapping into ECG, EEG.
00:07:51.000is electromagnetic frequency and it's nothing to do with the physical world.
00:07:55.000And when you do many tests in medicine, you use tools on a physical level to analyze people on level 2, I mean on the energy body.
00:08:03.000And the energy body is where there is a software that regulates the physical body.
00:08:07.000And that software has an electromagnetic switch board on the body and switch and points.
00:08:13.000And many chiropractors and naturopaths in the 70s discovered those switches.
00:08:17.000And those switches are linked to the heart, the liver, the bone marrow, the spleen, and all those organs have a switchboard and a correlation to the spine.
00:08:28.000Even though it's not spinal vertebrae as the physical reality, it's more like an electrical switch.
00:08:34.000and people have to look at it in a more of a soft software.
00:08:38.000And what happens there is that from infections to trauma to stress,
00:08:42.000the vagus nerve and the other nerves are affected.
00:08:46.000And sometimes it's only 2%, it could be 20%.
00:08:49.000Above 40% of fault function, you could start having pathological changes in the blood,
00:08:55.000or in the normal blood test or the x-ray or test that we do in the physical reality.
00:09:00.000So there's a 40% gray area where people are not right and the body is not healing properly or functioning properly and people don't know something is not really working well but it's hard for the doctor sometimes to find out what's wrong with them because it doesn't show up on the blood test.
00:09:16.000So, and then the level 3, which is the mental body, is where homeopathy or psychoneurobiology or different healing methods, where you're trying to remove post-traumatic stress, trauma of the biography of the people where they have a conflictual emotional shock.
00:09:36.000And it's not just stress, so they have events in their life that have created a distortion in their Photon, biophoton, which is a science from Dr. Albert Fritz Pops, which was an amazing scientist, a German scientist in the 80s.
00:09:51.000And there's low frequency of biophotons coming off your DNA, emitting light coming out of you.
00:09:57.000And that light has to be coherent and polarized in the laws of physics.
00:10:01.000And that light, which we talk about in spirituality or consciousness, has an effect as well on your physical body.
00:10:09.000So this mental field, which is this mental field, is expressed through special light photons emission.
00:10:16.000And if you have a distortion of that light, there is a pathological change that will occur within you.
00:10:20.000It could be many years to come, but it could hit different organs.
00:10:25.000And sometimes the thyroid gland could be dysfunctional because there's a trauma of inhibition or feeling choked many years ago.
00:10:33.000But because there was a conflict, let's say it was someone that inhibits you but someone that you loved and so there are conflicts and no resolution to it and you're taken by surprise.
00:10:44.000And those conflicts create a shockwave into that light emission and those organs affecting the autonomic nervous system in level 2 and physiologically the spine, the body, maybe the blood test, the TSH, the T3, T4 hormones will show up in the blood test or not, this is the interreaction between the mental field and the physical body and the level 2.
00:11:09.000Now Heidi, just listening to Jerome there, what Jerome talks about is beyond Erudition and esotericism.
00:11:18.000It sometimes borders on the ineffable.
00:11:21.000In fact, if I'd not been personally treated by Jerome, and just to share somewhat more prosaically
00:11:27.000the reason that I work with Jerome and the reason I love Jerome,
00:11:31.000the beginning of the, there are now many, but the first reason was when Jerome treated my wife,
00:11:38.000my wife had a problem with her vertebrae, there was a spinal problem,
00:11:42.000and we went to a private hospital, she was gonna have keyhole surgery
00:11:47.000to correct the vertebrae, we had the MRI, we saw the vertebrae, we had the surgery,
00:11:52.000booked in, I'm friends with, we have a mutual friend, Danny Harrison,
00:11:56.000he said, I'll go see my friend Jerome, so we go and see Jerome, and Jerome said,
00:12:01.000oh, it's no bother, I treat you for six days for free.
00:12:24.000Now the reason I tell this very sort of you know sort of in some ways ordinary but also impressive story about Jerome's healing capacity is like while Jerome is talking he's talking about endocrinal medicine, neurology, he's talking about photons, he's talking about sort of a component of DNA being light.
00:12:39.000These are sort of quite complex, rarefied, reified ideas even.
00:12:45.000So can you now Heidi tell me how you can place some empirical Well, I think that's partly my role, right?
00:13:04.000To come in from the scientific perspective and explain some of the things that Jerome's able to do.
00:13:09.000Because I've also seen what he's able to do and I've heard stories of what he's able to do.
00:13:13.000And that's why I knew that he was a really good chiropractor, to go in and see what can be done, what's possible.
00:13:19.000and then start breaking down, well, how is he managing to do this?
00:13:22.000And so I'm a neuroscientist, I'm a brain scientist, I've published many studies, and so what we
00:13:28.000have found before studying Jerome is that we do, when we're adjusting the spine, we
00:13:33.000are actually changing the way the brain is perceiving what's going on in the body and
00:14:03.000Yeah, because what's really fascinating in the last 20 years in neuroscience, in the research field, what we're understanding is what's most important is what the brain believes to be real.
00:14:13.000So what your brain believes is real, He's tapping into how the brain is perceiving what's going on, and if the brain is aware of what's going on, the brain heals itself.
00:14:25.000Because we even know things like your memories and your past experiences, your future expectations
00:14:29.000will actually change how your brain interprets what's happening right in front of you.
00:14:33.000It's really interesting and I think that's potentially what he's doing.
00:14:36.000He's tapping into how the brain is perceiving what's going on and if the brain is aware
00:14:41.000of what's going on, the brain heals itself.
00:14:44.000We also know that, you know, from science.
00:14:46.000I suppose for all of us, anyone who cuts their finger, the finger gets better, no one told
00:14:52.000This idea of perception, can you show me, like when we did that thing before, you showed those perception things and stuff like that, you know?
00:15:08.000Because our brains don't just see shapes as shapes.
00:15:11.000They see shapes compared to the shapes around them.
00:15:13.000So you see that pink circle is larger than the purple one.
00:15:17.000Do you guys at home, are you seeing them as different sizes?
00:15:20.000Are you saying that the pink one's bigger than the purple one?
00:15:22.000Let me know in the chat, let me know in the comments.
00:15:24.000Whereas in fact... In fact, you take away the surrounding circles, and I can even bring them beside each other and actually pop a line above and below.
00:16:07.000No, so reality is taking place, reality is interpretive rather than objective.
00:16:12.000Yeah, your brain interprets those, the same exact shade of grey, but it's telling you that A is darker than B because B is in the shadow of the green cylinder.
00:16:22.000How do you apply these illusory and sensory techniques to the interpretation of the work of Jerome?
00:16:31.000So, what I think Jerome is doing, because of all the last 20 years of studies, we know that the spine impacts how the brain perceives, right?
00:16:40.000And so, now what I wanted to know when Jerome provides care for four weeks is, because we knew we changed the prefrontal cortex, the prefrontal cortex has got some quite amazing different things that it does.
00:16:52.000So, it's picking up on everything that's going on, it's the seat of
00:16:56.000your intelligence, but it's also involved in your sleep, it helps turn on your
00:17:00.000parasympathetic nervous system, which is that healing, digesting, resting
00:17:04.000part of your nervous system, it's involved with your autonomic nervous
00:17:06.000system, your neuroendocrine system, so your hormones, so we knew we'd change that part but I didn't know which of
00:17:12.000these functions are we changing. Mental health, all of mental health
00:17:16.000is connected to the prefrontal cortex. May I ask Heidi, do we know from an
00:17:20.000evolutionary perspective at what point in human evolution these
00:17:24.000parts of the brain evolve or come online.
00:17:29.000Yeah, no, it's the last thing in evolution, yeah.
00:17:32.000Because the brainstem is the first and then the limbic system is the second, which is that fight-flight amygdala, and then the prefrontal cortex is the last evolutionary part.
00:17:49.000Can you talk us through some of what this means and then we'll just focus on what you learned from your studies with Jerome that you're happy to share?
00:17:57.000Well why I got so excited about it when we first discovered this, we were in a little hospital in Denmark actually with my team, my research team at the New Zealand College of Chiropractic and the postdoc that was there.
00:18:08.000So we weren't touching that data because you know you've got to make sure it gets validated by other people.
00:18:15.000She goes, you're changing the prefrontal cortex.
00:18:17.000So when, when that was me adjusting the patients at the time, I got really excited because we used to think in the old days with chiropractic care that you're relieving pressure or squashed nerve roots.
00:18:36.000It's partly responsible for how we feel pain.
00:18:39.000You know, that's one thing that everybody knows.
00:18:40.000Chiropractic care helps with pain, right?
00:18:42.000And so, it might not be that you're fixing anything physically, other than changing the communication between the spine and the brain, and all of a sudden the brain's deciding to turn down those feelings of pain.
00:18:53.000Or it's decided, hey, there's no problem, I can actually turn it off.
00:18:55.000And that's where you can have those adjustments and all of a sudden it's all gone.
00:18:59.000Maybe like what your wife had, you know, it's just gone.
00:19:19.000And that's another thing, you know, Jerome takes care of a lot of sports people
00:19:23.000because that precise control and movement and reactions are so important.
00:19:29.000But this is also the seat of your intelligence.
00:19:31.000So this is literally your executive functions, your ability to think rationally, to pay attention, to just, you know, ignore all the things that are distracting and just focusing on what you need to focus in on.
00:19:43.000It's also emotional control, which is really, really interesting.
00:19:46.000So all of mental health It's usually linked to a dysfunction in the prefrontal cortex because it normally controls your emotions, controls the limbic system.
00:19:55.000And I keep flapping, there's a psychologist that's done a video about that.
00:19:59.000So, for example, if there's a lack of dopamine or a lack of serotonin, there is a relationship between the prefrontal cortexes and these endocrinal responses?
00:20:50.000So can you show us then some of the things that were impressive about this, the data that you gained from Jerome that you are happy to share?
00:20:58.000So with Jerome, We did a randomized control trial.
00:21:13.000What we did do is we recorded whole head EEG.
00:21:15.000So we've got a cap all over their head and we're recording their EEG.
00:21:20.000And when we do that, we can also calculate where in the brain the change is taking place.
00:21:24.000We can record the brain waves, the frequencies that It's how the brain talks to itself and within itself and we also measure, we can also record what's called functional connectivity.
00:21:35.000So you can actually start to see what parts of the brain are talking to each other and what we're then looking at is what happens to the people that Jerome took care of minus the control group and then pre versus post.
00:21:48.000So and that's what we ended up with looking at what changed and what changed when Jerome does his thing compared to the controls because that's what I'm interested in right?
00:22:08.000We also gave everybody Fitbits, because with the Fitbits you can actually measure their movement that they're doing every day, their heart rate, the heart rate variability.
00:22:17.000We can also measure their sleep phases.
00:22:19.000So what was really, really interesting, there was quite a few findings that we got from the study with Jerome.
00:22:26.000First and foremost, the group that got Jerome's care, they felt better, they had less fatigue, which is interesting because we haven't found that before, not that I've seen in the literature anyway, and they increased their sleep in the light sleep and the rapid eye movement sleep, which was really fascinating.
00:22:45.000And then, most interesting to me is the brain changes.
00:22:49.000They also had significantly less depression.
00:22:51.000And I thought that was very interesting.
00:22:52.000There was a trend to an improvement in anxiety as well.
00:22:56.000And that's not something that's been studied very much with chiropractic.
00:22:59.000How are you measuring that they're less anxious?
00:23:10.000You know, and they ask many questions and you fill them in.
00:23:13.000And that's what showed up that he had, they were physically feeling better, they've improved quality of life, they were less fatigued, they were significantly less depressed, and there was a trend to an improvement in anxiety as well.
00:23:26.000So we know that they felt better, right?
00:23:50.000And the Delta is the deep sleep, but the Theta is like the light relaxation.
00:23:55.000And that was a significantly decrease.
00:23:57.000So I'm suspecting that that means that they were more, they were feeling better afterwards, especially if there's a reduction in stress and anxiety.
00:24:06.000So that shift, they're almost like their brain is more alert than it was before the adjustments.
00:24:14.000But these aren't usually easy things to shift, which is why I got excited about it.
00:24:18.000But, you know, we also had some Almost changes in several of the other ones which also blew my mind away because again These aren't things that normally change and especially the gamma one that one that one fascinates me Because one thing you often do see and I know Jerome can speak to this is People change in their decision-making afterwards which makes sense with the prefrontal cortex, which that's part of your thinking problem-solving brain But this would even indicate if he's increasing gamma
00:24:50.000So maybe they are becoming so self-aware that they're able to make, you know, better choices.
00:24:56.000But again, this is what we need to look into further.
00:25:02.000Yes, yes, because the function of gamma is not something that's absolutely verifiable, is it?
00:25:07.000Yes, it is, but like, I mean, you know, I wouldn't expect to get changes in gamma, because gamma is when you go, you're right intensely involved in something, like when you're in your flow, Oh cool, I like it there.
00:25:32.000So I've been looking into this, which is fascinating.
00:25:35.000So then we had the changes in sleep, which is really, really cool.
00:25:38.000Because again, if Jerome is able to tap into the parasympathetic nervous system, which is what we're suspecting is happening, then they should be able to relax more.
00:25:47.000So they should get into more light sleep.
00:25:49.000And the REM sleep is really, really interesting, because that's usually the body is dealing with something, it's changing.
00:25:55.000And I suspect that Jerome's got these people into a state where they are
00:27:02.000There is that which is observable, medically and technologically, but this amounts to symptomatic data and that Jerome is interacting with sort of deeper phenomena.
00:27:13.000Does that chime, Jerome, with what you feel that you're doing with your work, that you're interacting with deep systems?
00:27:20.000You know, I think that I'm just trying to open a system and release the defense mechanism of the body, the defense physiology with my clinical skills.
00:27:34.000So you know more about the outcome than for me.
00:27:36.000I'm looking at how I open that defense mechanism that is in the body through the five levels of healing.
00:27:44.000And I think that I'm only focused on that.
00:27:48.000So to answer your question, I don't know.
00:27:51.000I just know that if you do that, there's a multiple capacity of healing and regeneration and transformation because it's a common understanding that if you unlock the defense system, there's going to be a greater good outcome.
00:28:06.000You're tapping into some really cool areas of the brain, and I think that's really neat.
00:28:10.000Because you can actually explain, based on the areas of the brain that he's changing, why he could be possibly getting the results.
00:28:32.000Just because obviously the horse are big animals and you have to know how to...
00:28:37.000handle them or be next to them but they are very lovely and they're very caring horses anyway but what i'm saying is yes it's a whole different ball game uh but it's the same whether it's a dog or a horse or human being or a baby that cannot speak you can actually test things and have information on the subconscious aspect of that being and so there is a common being Interaction with light emission and nervous system conduction.
00:29:04.000I think we are on this planet with this emanation of light.
00:29:09.000And this light theory of biology is the key factor.
00:29:15.000It's going to be an interesting thing to learn more about Jerome as we continue these conversations.
00:29:21.000Dr. Heidi, thank you very much for joining us.
00:29:23.000Good luck with your study and publication and future clinical trials that I'm sure you'll undertake.