Stay Free - Russel Brand - You’re Not Who You Think You Are - SF718

00:00:09.000 Hello there, you awakening wonder.

00:00:17.000 Thanks so much for joining me today for a very special edition of Stay Free with Russell Brand.

00:00:22.000 My dear friend, the author Jamie Winship, is with me, and we're going to be talking about our two books.

00:00:28.000 Mine, this one, How to Become Christian in Seven Days, may take 50 years of sin and serious f ups to get started, and Jamie's wonderful book, The War of World Views.

00:00:36.000 Jamie, as you know, I hope, has been a A brilliant and wonderful and nourishing influence in my life as a writer and a thinker.

00:00:45.000 But have a look at this to learn more about him.

00:00:48.000 Patterns you've learned about yourself from a world that could care less about you.

00:00:53.000 Broken, wounded world telling you who you are and you're going, I agree. 0.89

00:00:56.000 Death, death to all of us.

00:01:00.000 The way out is to believe about yourself, what God says about you.

00:01:07.000 Jamie Winship is a former law enforcement officer who has.

00:01:10.000 Spent years working in conflict zones, particularly in the Middle East, training and advising local police and communities.

00:01:15.000 Today, through his work with Identity Exchange, he helps leaders and individuals identify the fears that drive their decisions and replace them with a clear understanding of who they are, teaching that when identity changes, behavior follows.

00:01:27.000 Whatever I'm doing, are the people around me being transformed?

00:01:31.000 If they are, I feel like I'm walking in the spirit with God.

00:01:37.000 Wherever you're watching this, get over onto Rumble.

00:01:40.000 And if you don't have Rumble Premium yet, get Rumble Premium now.

00:01:42.000 Support us over here on Rumble.

00:01:45.000 Now, without further delay, here's my conversation with the great Jamie Winship.

00:01:50.000 Lord, thank you for Russell and who he is and his true self, Lord, and the way that you made him and knit him together.

00:02:00.000 All the beauty there and all the wholeness and resiliency that's there.

00:02:05.000 It's always been there.

00:02:07.000 He's always been redeemed.

00:02:10.000 We're redeemed innocent from the very beginning.

00:02:12.000 And so, Lord, thank you for that and him and who he is.

00:02:17.000 And Lord, thank you for the identity you've given me and the healing that you've given all of us and walked us into and brought us into because of your kindness that leads us to repentance.

00:02:28.000 It's your love always that motivates you and towards us, and we're grateful and thankful for it.

00:02:33.000 So, Lord, I just pray that you will guide this time, the wisdom of your Holy Spirit, and let us be vessels who say things and talk about things that bring healing to other people.

00:02:45.000 In Jesus' name.

00:02:49.000 Well, you know, amen.

00:02:53.000 Amen.

00:02:54.000 Normally, I like, but I want to ask you stuff because the reason Jamie is here is because we've been working together and receiving the benefit of Jamie's wisdom, and Jamie's wife Donna is here just off camera for our team, our group, our organization.

00:03:16.000 We're here ostensibly, of course, to talk about the world of.

00:03:20.000 Excuse me, the war of worldviews, choosing connection in a culture of separation.

00:03:25.000 Jamie Winship.

00:03:26.000 I came to know Jamie when I read Jamie's book, Living Fearless.

00:03:31.000 And as I told you last time we spoke, I did the exercises that are suggested in there and I found them effective all my life.

00:03:42.000 Like the only thing that's been really delivered in a sense, well, I can think of a few actually now, but one of the things that's delivered is like the 12 steps.

00:03:52.000 Like at school, when you're doing stuff, people get you to do stuff like you know, exercises, homework, or whatever, and it's sort of an imitation like, I've got to do this thing, it's not real.

00:04:00.000 I felt very distracted and disconnected from reality.

00:04:03.000 Disconnected, interesting that word, on the cover of your book.

00:04:06.000 But when I did the 12 steps, the 12 steps really worked with me.

00:04:10.000 In particular, the inventory aspect of the 12 steps really helped me to discover things about myself that I didn't know.

00:04:16.000 I mean, of course, you think you know yourself.

00:04:18.000 You are you.

00:04:18.000 You're in your head the whole time, in there.

00:04:21.000 Hopefully, there are no other invading agents or entities interfering with your consciousness.

00:04:25.000 I suppose we'll talk about that.

00:04:27.000 But when I did the prayers in Living Fearless and in reading, The War of Worldviews, which doesn't take, like, it doesn't, it's not instructional in exactly the same way.

00:04:37.000 It doesn't tell you now pray in exactly the same way.

00:04:40.000 But what I love about this book is that you take the idea of identity and map it onto culture.

00:04:49.000 Right.

00:04:50.000 I think that's a, it's bold and it's effective.

00:04:52.000 And I find your writing very easy to read.

00:04:54.000 I enjoy it.

00:04:56.000 I enjoy the way you write.

00:04:57.000 So thank you for that book.

00:04:59.000 And there's a link in the description if you want to get this book.

00:05:01.000 I've read it.

00:05:01.000 It's a beautiful book and we're going to be talking about it for the entirety of our conversation.

00:05:06.000 Also, I want to talk about my book, How to Come Christian in Seven Days.

00:05:10.000 It was kind of a pithy, like going in and out thinking it was a good title and then sort of regretting it a bit because I don't mean to be pithy.

00:05:17.000 I'm very, very happy with the cover.

00:05:19.000 I'm very happy.

00:05:19.000 I love that.

00:05:20.000 I love the cover.

00:05:21.000 It needs to be super clear to people what that represents, I think.

00:05:26.000 It's almost like we need something telling us what the cover is because it's really, I loved it.

00:05:26.000 Really?

00:05:32.000 And, you know, when people saw your book and I said, do you understand that cover?

00:05:36.000 It's like, How did you come up with that?

00:05:39.000 Can I interview you for a second?

00:05:40.000 Yeah, yeah, please.

00:05:40.000 I'm really glad that I was here.

00:05:42.000 No, I want to know why you came up with that because I think it's really meaningful.

00:05:46.000 Because actually, there are two occasions, clear occasions now, where I've had what I am terming, and I think I'm coining this, kinetic psychedelia.

00:05:57.000 I suppose I've taken drugs and had experiences, hallucinogenic experiences.

00:06:01.000 It's mostly visual or sometimes auditory.

00:06:05.000 But when Jesus came to me, it was a visceral experience.

00:06:09.000 Feeling which is visceral and kinetic, a feeling which is surprising because I'm so I think of myself as being cerebral and verbal.

00:06:18.000 But when Christ came, it was in the guts, it was a feeling, it wasn't a thought, it wasn't a thought that I thought, it was a feeling that I felt in my guts.

00:06:28.000 And that feeling was, and it was the feeling of a cross coming into my stomach.

00:06:33.000 I would have described it as magnetic filings, I would have described it as magnetic filings pulled into the shape of a cross in my belly.

00:06:40.000 In an instant, like that, and then, like that, I didn't obviously think I would be writing a book at that point.

00:06:46.000 And over time, I thought about flies because of reading C.S. Lewis.

00:06:49.000 What C.S. Lewis said before the earth was conceived or the universe created, Christ knew the sensation of the wounds on his back and the scars on his back as it pressed against the cross with the flies on his back.

00:07:03.000 It's a very evocative and disturbing image.

00:07:06.000 And when me and Laura, my wife, were thinking about the cover for this book, we talked about.

00:07:12.000 That and the flies and the flies coming together, and we tried different lots of different versions of it.

00:07:19.000 And then I found out I can't remember if who I was talking to, but sometimes it would be Elsewhere, Lord of the Flies.

00:07:23.000 I'd probably heard it right like that.

00:07:26.000 And I think of his shame being taken on, and I've become kind of addicted to Christ.

00:07:31.000 I've become addicted to the idea of Christ.

00:07:34.000 I've become addicted to the truth of Christ to the point that it's become the basis of my understanding of reality very, very quickly to a point where I would have thought it would make me perfect.

00:07:44.000 But it hasn't made me perfect at all, but it has made me very, very different.

00:07:49.000 What I mean by that is there's something very, very important about him dying for us, about taking sin onto him, about him absorbing sin in exactly this way like flies being sucked in, like shame being sucked in.

00:08:02.000 And so, thank you for giving me indulging me and allowing me to talk about that.

00:08:06.000 Because what this book has, what this book is an attempt for me to do, Jamie, is to say that coming to Christ has been surprising, it's not what I thought it was going to be.

00:08:19.000 I didn't think that I would ever be.

00:08:20.000 I've become a Christian.

00:08:22.000 My whole life I've been aware of Jesus and it's not really appealed to me, except actually when I think back, strangely, I'm obsessed with Jesus.

00:08:29.000 I want to be Jesus.

00:08:30.000 I've tried to look like Jesus.

00:08:32.000 I've got tattoos of Jesus on me.

00:08:35.000 When I had the opportunity to choose a Vedic mantra when I was with the beloved Amma, I chose one that was oriented towards Christ, not Krishna, which was much more the center of my life. 0.97

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00:09:57.000 So you also came to our Lord Jamie in a way that was.

00:10:02.000 That sounds to me somewhat surprising because I know that you had at least one parent that was Christian, but I know that it's an encounter with a teacher, an inadvertent teacher that led you first to Christ.

00:10:14.000 And what I like most about your work and what I want our audience to understand, because I think you do it better than anybody else actually, is that having a relationship with Christ needn't be ensconced in the church, that it's very intimate and personal and mystical.

00:10:31.000 And I want you to explain to me.

00:10:34.000 How you've come to have this very unique, unusual, but also universally available relationship with Jesus.

00:10:41.000 Yeah.

00:10:42.000 But first, can I ask you another question?

00:10:42.000 Okay.

00:10:44.000 Oh, yeah.

00:10:44.000 Because you, and I think this will demonstrate the point, is when you said you consider yourself a very cerebral, right, person, but the way Jesus came to you was very visceral.

00:10:59.000 Yeah.

00:11:00.000 Why do you think that is?

00:11:02.000 Why do you think he didn't come to you cerebrally or intellectually or why?

00:11:09.000 The punch in the gut.

00:11:10.000 Well, the answer that comes is that I would have sort of claimed it.

00:11:14.000 If it had come in there, I'd have thought it was me.

00:11:17.000 I would have gone, no, this is me thinking a thing. 0.99

00:11:20.000 Like, if I was, because obviously I'm aware that one of the things was, you know, when I went back, here's Morgan, is you're a fraud, you're a charlatan, you're a huckster. 0.93

00:11:30.000 And, of course, yeah, in a thousand ways, of course, these are the accusations that, you know, they're not the worst accusations I have to deal with, let me tell you. 0.83

00:11:38.000 But, This is so authentic.

00:11:41.000 I don't even feel kind of any way about it.

00:11:45.000 It doesn't make any difference to me that being called that because it came in my belly.

00:11:50.000 Exactly.

00:11:51.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:11:51.000 And that's really important because when we encounter Christ, however we do, he's coming to us in the way he made us to know him and receive him, in the way that he knows we were made to receive him.

00:12:06.000 So we might think, well, it's going to be intellectual because I'm intellectual, or people say to me, well, I have an engineering mind.

00:12:12.000 So it's difficult for me to imagine things.

00:12:14.000 And I say, do you think God doesn't know that you have an engineering mind?

00:12:18.000 So, how do you think he's going to come to you if he gave you an engineering mind?

00:12:21.000 He's not going to give you an engineering mind so it's difficult for you to hear him.

00:12:25.000 That doesn't make any sense.

00:12:26.000 He'll come to you in a way that he made you to know it's him.

00:12:30.000 And it's a way that you cannot not know it's him.

00:12:33.000 It's him.

00:12:34.000 And so, when the time you and I prayed together pretty intensely, because of how you told me how you first experienced the real Christ, I knew that if we were going to invite, he was going to come the same way again.

00:12:49.000 And that's what happened.

00:12:51.000 Right, very much down in the gut.

00:12:54.000 And if that didn't happen, I would say, okay, we're not in the right place.

00:12:58.000 Well, I didn't know that.

00:13:01.000 I was waiting for that.

00:13:02.000 I think I know everything, you know.

00:13:03.000 Sometimes I forget I didn't invent everything, you know, like whether it's like the 12 steps or the English language or all these things that I'm the beneficiary of.

00:13:10.000 I sort of think, like, out of some personal security thing, this is mine, this is mine.

00:13:15.000 But, like, I didn't think before, I am his, but I didn't think before.

00:13:22.000 The prayer that we were doing, because as I explained in the book Living Fearless, Jamie outlines how to pray in ways that invite you and help you to participate in an encounter with Christ in a way that's very, very real and mysterious.

00:13:34.000 I didn't, even though I was doing that with you and when I read the book, I've got to meet Jamie, and by God's grace, that's happened.

00:13:40.000 I didn't think that I would have that experience.

00:13:43.000 I didn't think that.

00:13:44.000 I didn't think that then.

00:13:45.000 And actually, this time it was, it didn't feel, it was a sensation and it was a feeling, but it was sort of elsewhere on my body.

00:13:54.000 And it's very.

00:13:55.000 Interesting because that's it.

00:13:56.000 I suppose, yeah.

00:13:57.000 Oh, well, one thing it demonstrates is I'm not what I think of me.

00:14:01.000 I'm what he knows me to be.

00:14:03.000 That's right.

00:14:04.000 And how you might be saying, I want you to come to me is not the way that you really want him to come to you.

00:14:10.000 He knows he because he made you and he loves you, he knows how to come to you in a way that meets you sort of beyond doubt.

00:14:19.000 And people, when we're doing this with people and they have an encounter with Christ, I'll ask them, um, Would you say that about yourself, what you just heard?

00:14:27.000 No, no, that's how we know.

00:14:31.000 It wouldn't, you wouldn't say that about yourself.

00:14:34.000 You would say something quite different.

00:14:37.000 This is what God says about you.

00:14:38.000 This is how God comes to you in a way that you know it's Him, that you know it's Him.

00:14:43.000 And so even when we, just because I've heard you talk and explain, and if you're listening to a person, they will say things that kind of allow you to kind of predict how the Lord's going to come to them.

00:14:56.000 Oh, yeah.

00:14:57.000 Just because of their life and what's happened in their life.

00:15:00.000 And so I knew, like, you know, this, your abdomen is a place where you feel beyond your mind and it's deep in you.

00:15:09.000 And so I assumed that whatever happened, that was going to happen.

00:15:14.000 Yes.

00:15:15.000 Feeling, not words, not language.

00:15:17.000 Beyond words.

00:15:18.000 And the healing, also the sight of the injury that I feel like I've carried is very abdominal.

00:15:24.000 It's interesting because one of the, see, when I first, I became Christian in a place where really Christianity, Maybe laterally there's some talk of revival actually, but it feels old, it feels dead, it feels grey.

00:15:24.000 Right.

00:15:36.000 That's not to say I haven't met amazing British Christians.

00:15:38.000 J. John, amazing.

00:15:39.000 Nicky Gumball, amazing.

00:15:41.000 Dave Bull, amazing.

00:15:42.000 Like amazing Christians that are in England.

00:15:45.000 But in general, the Church of England, it feels like it doesn't really know what it's doing and that from its advent, in fact, it's a sort of by nature a castrated organ.

00:15:55.000 So, probably not something I should get involved in.

00:15:58.000 But like, what I feel like now in your country is that Christianity somehow bears the inflection of American culture, commodification, commercialization.

00:16:08.000 Like, American evangelism almost already sounds bad before you perjure the term.

00:16:13.000 Now, one of the things I'm very.

00:16:13.000 Right.

00:16:15.000 Excited about and interested about, I want to learn more about Jamie.

00:16:18.000 Is that you talk about Jesus in a way that doesn't make it churchy or seem like there's this sort of imitative thing I've sort of noticed around Christianity.

00:16:30.000 I've noticed words that I don't care for too much, and some of them are quite integral sin, heaven, sanctification.

00:16:37.000 A lot of these words seem a bit like they're carrying unnecessary baggage.

00:16:41.000 I want to understand how you are communicating.

00:16:44.000 What is it about your particular journey?

00:16:47.000 Like, you know, in case people don't know yet, that you're in the police force, that you worked a lot in the Middle East and in Muslim countries, and have done a lot of, as it says in Living Fearless, a lot of missionary work in Muslim communities.

00:16:59.000 How is it and what is it that you have discovered about talking about Jesus that makes it accessible?

00:17:06.000 Accessible?

00:17:07.000 That's the end of the sentence.

00:17:08.000 Well, I think one reason is because all humans are the same.

00:17:15.000 We don't need a lot of complicated words.

00:17:18.000 All humans are the same.

00:17:20.000 And what, if I could simplify it, whether I'm talking to Uighur Muslims in China or atheists or anyone, any human anywhere, I can almost start because I happen to be human.

00:17:34.000 Is that when I'm talking to the person, if I ask them, and this is what you referred to, can you tell me what you believe? 0.53

00:17:42.000 They actually can't.

00:17:44.000 They don't know what they believe.

00:17:45.000 Very few people know what they believe.

00:17:48.000 The way you know that is because what they'll tell you they believe, that's not what they do.

00:17:52.000 Huh.

00:17:53.000 So I say it, we believe in sanctification.

00:17:56.000 Do you?

00:17:57.000 Because we don't see it anywhere.

00:17:59.000 Or I believe, you know, I have faith in God.

00:18:01.000 Do you?

00:18:02.000 Do you believe in God?

00:18:03.000 Like, where do we see it?

00:18:05.000 We don't actually see.

00:18:07.000 And if I say to them, tell me what you're afraid of, they don't know.

00:18:12.000 They just know they're afraid.

00:18:13.000 So it's not that people, it's very insidious.

00:18:16.000 It's not that people are liars, it's that they don't know actually what the truth is really about anything.

00:18:23.000 Yes.

00:18:24.000 So they don't know the truth.

00:18:25.000 But if they don't know the truth about themselves, so I can say to a person, I can tell you right now that your deepest fear as a human is that you're powerless and alone.

00:18:36.000 I know because that is the deepest fear of every single human being on the planet.

00:18:41.000 Whether they can say it or not, ultimately it's I'm in a situation that I can't get out of and there's nobody here to help me.

00:18:51.000 So it's like Jesus talking to the paralytic, waiting for the angel to come down and stir the water.

00:18:56.000 And he's been there 38 years.

00:18:59.000 And Jesus says to him, Do you want to get well?

00:19:03.000 Like the question is Do you realize that nothing's happening here?

00:19:09.000 You've been here 38 years on a myth or some story you heard.

00:19:13.000 Maybe you saw it one time, but 38 years, do you really want to get well?

00:19:19.000 Because if you do, we can.

00:19:25.000 But if you don't, then let's answer that question.

00:19:27.000 And the man says something really interesting.

00:19:30.000 Of course, I want to get well.

00:19:31.000 That isn't what he says.

00:19:34.000 He says, There's no one here to help me get in.

00:19:38.000 And then he says, and even if there was, other people will go in front of me and I won't make it in time.

00:19:43.000 He's telling, maybe for the first time, the truth of his own condition.

00:19:48.000 I'm powerless and I'm alone.

00:19:51.000 That's so cool.

00:19:53.000 And when he says that, Jesus is like, okay, now, based on that, now look at me and stand up.

00:20:01.000 Look at me and stand up because you're not powerless and you're not alone.

00:20:05.000 Those lies have stranded you here.

00:20:08.000 In this coping mechanism idea that maybe something will work one day.

00:20:14.000 Yeah, I know that story because I've read the Bible.

00:20:16.000 Also, it's in the Chosen.

00:20:18.000 So, like, that's how we really know.

00:20:20.000 Is this in the Chosen?

00:20:21.000 Can we rely on that?

00:20:23.000 Yes, this is Chosen verified.

00:20:25.000 So, like, that in that, when it's Baphsaida, is that pool in it?

00:20:30.000 There's meant to be a healing pool, a bit like Lourdes or something like that.

00:20:34.000 And yeah, see, as a person from a 12 step background, I understand not only how the 12 steps apply to alcoholism and drug addiction, but also how they're applied in human relationships.

00:20:43.000 Primarily through things like codependency and sort of holding on to old self pitying beliefs.

00:20:49.000 Well, I need someone to help me.

00:20:51.000 That's right.

00:20:51.000 Well, even if I did do it, then someone would get in my way.

00:20:55.000 Now, that story seems sort of ridiculous 38 years lying there until I look at some of the things that I've believed for a long time.

00:21:03.000 Maybe getting stuff will make me happy.

00:21:06.000 That's right.

00:21:07.000 Going out into the world and trying to get my identity from the culture.

00:21:11.000 What is fame and celebrity other than an amplified attempt to get your identity?

00:21:16.000 In the terms and by the metrics of the culture.

00:21:19.000 And then why are you surprised when it doesn't work?

00:21:22.000 You know what's interesting for me, like a person that feels like I'm over it, but by God's grace, it will be redeemed, is like when I watch people that are occupying that place in the culture now, take for one example Billie Eilish, who's a big pop star in the world now.

00:21:35.000 Of course, I've been around and been married to one time the biggest pop star in the world.

00:21:41.000 And I notice when I watch her, she's obviously brilliantly talented and very gifted and writes her own songs and she seems like a Pretty beautiful and incredible person in a whole bunch of ways.

00:21:50.000 But when she talks about stuff, I see her dealing with the mantle of celebrity.

00:21:56.000 I'm in the culture now, so I'm supposed to say stuff, aren't I?

00:21:59.000 And this is what I believe in.

00:22:01.000 You know, I believe in being a vegan, which is a perfectly good thing for a person to believe in.

00:22:04.000 Or I believe in honoring indigenous people, perfectly good thing to believe in. 0.88

00:22:08.000 And then I watch how she's deluged and slaughtered in the culture. 0.99

00:22:14.000 Before, you know, like before watching the, the, by what I recognizes that Billie Eilish is still transacting in the market.

00:22:21.000 And the currency of the empire, to use one of the terms that I love in your book, using empire to mean worldliness and kingdom to mean the kingdom of God.

00:22:32.000 Prior to that, I did notice the themes and Jungian shapes available, in particular around female celebrity, and it's real notable in my culture.

00:22:40.000 Here are just three examples two you'll have heard of, I'm sure Princess Diana, Amy Winehouse, you may not have heard of Jade Goodig, she was a reality TV star, but she happened to be a friend of mine, and Caroline Flash.

00:22:51.000 Who also was in a similar world.

00:22:53.000 These were sort of like women that the culture really raised up. 1.00

00:22:56.000 And obviously, Diana, think of the Diana model.

00:22:58.000 And then the culture, one might say, even though I'm sure there's complexity one person dying of addiction, another one by suicide, another one in this way or that, cancer, whatever.

00:23:06.000 But I'm talking about the way they interface with the culture and with identity in particular, given that so much of your work focuses on your identity in the world and your identity in Christ.

00:23:14.000 And that all of us get trapped in our worldly identity because whether we know it or not, we're worshipping it.

00:23:20.000 We're sitting there at that pool waiting for it to save us somehow.

00:23:23.000 That's right.

00:23:24.000 Not acknowledging this, nothing.

00:23:25.000 What I also noticed that, like Winehouse, God rest their soul, and Diana and the other women I mentioned, they were kind of sacrificed by the culture.

00:23:33.000 The culture kind of ate them, consumed them, devoured them. 0.80

00:23:36.000 That's a great way to say it. 0.99

00:23:37.000 Up, it sort of wanted them kind of dead, and then obviously, I see how it interacts with and relates to me.

00:23:45.000 We were talking earlier this week about uh Judas, in fact, and Judas's relationship with the church, and how he, in a sense, well, could you tell the story again because you're very good at this?

00:23:57.000 Yeah, well, I mean, it's like it's like what we're talking about is so we were talking about the comparison between Judas and Peter.

00:24:07.000 And how they're actually pretty similar in that both of them, under some sort of satanic influence, make decisions, right?

00:24:16.000 Peter to deny that he even knows Jesus, and Judas to betray in another way.

00:24:25.000 Like he never, he didn't publicly deny Jesus.

00:24:29.000 That's not what he did.

00:24:30.000 What he did was turn Jesus over to the authorities in a way that he made money off of, or there's financial return that also avoided violence.

00:24:41.000 Like, that's what he did.

00:24:43.000 And so, I was just, the problem is when we read scripture, because we're so locked into, oh, I know the identity of that person. 0.58

00:24:52.000 I know, because I've been taught my whole life the identity of that Muslim or that gay person or that Judas.

00:24:59.000 And Judas doesn't have a chance because his name's already synonymous with demon possessed suicide.

00:25:05.000 So he doesn't have a chance in the reading because when we go to read about him, he's already condemned.

00:25:10.000 Right.

00:25:11.000 And so, you know, then it's like, was Judas saved or not?

00:25:14.000 Or, you know, is he in heaven or not?

00:25:15.000 It's like, The poor guy doesn't have a chance.

00:25:19.000 But when we look at, but when we read the story like he's a human being, right, not just predestined to hell, but he's a human and Peter's a human, I think we read this story differently.

00:25:29.000 And then if we tell the truth about ourselves, because the Bible, we're not reading the Bible, the Bible's reading us.

00:25:35.000 It's like in this situation, and that's why I think that's how we have to read Judas.

00:25:39.000 So oftentimes when I'm talking about biblical characters, I would say, yeah, you guys revere this character now, but if that character presented their idea to you, you'd reject it outright.

00:25:50.000 So, like, if one time I was teaching a bunch of, we were speaking at a conference for high school principals, Christian principals, high school Christian principals.

00:25:59.000 And I gave a resume and said, who would hire this person?

00:26:01.000 And they all said immediately no.

00:26:03.000 But it was the resume of the Apostle Paul.

00:26:05.000 Maybe the greatest religious teacher you ever dream of getting, but his resume would never pass your desk.

00:26:12.000 Well, how did you present his resume just for? 0.99

00:26:14.000 Well, he's a murderer. 0.99

00:26:15.000 He's a convicted murderer. 0.98

00:26:16.000 Well, at the school.

00:26:16.000 No, that's no good.

00:26:18.000 No, I'm sorry.

00:26:19.000 Yeah, that's right.

00:26:20.000 No, it's a murderer.

00:26:20.000 Hold on, we've got, that's in there already.

00:26:22.000 We can't have him.

00:26:23.000 Yeah. 0.97

00:26:24.000 And all the things, he's probably ugly, deformed.

00:26:28.000 I mean, he's been in prison multiple times. 0.75

00:26:30.000 He's caused riots wherever he's been.

00:26:33.000 He's been kicked out of his own church.

00:26:37.000 He's a perfect teacher.

00:26:38.000 He's probably the best teacher.

00:26:39.000 Yeah, well, they would dismiss him outright.

00:26:41.000 Even if I said, yeah, but he's had a turn in his life.

00:26:44.000 He's a new, he'd be on the talk show getting annihilated because of where he's come from.

00:26:49.000 And so, even at a mission board one time, I presented the plan of Elijah.

00:26:55.000 And I made a spoof of it because they would be like, well, how much is the trash pickup going to cost us?

00:27:01.000 They'd be so down in empire detail, they would miss the meaning of what's happening.

00:27:07.000 And so, because we read the Bible, is the point of my book.

00:27:10.000 And it's really what you're saying also that our lens is so skewed on how we see the world because we're empire trained.

00:27:20.000 And so, even the church empire, you were talking the other day about the Vatican, and I remember that Aquinas quote where he says he's walking with.

00:27:28.000 The Pope and the Pope says, looking at the splendor of the Vatican, and says, Well, we can no longer say silver and gold have I none.

00:27:35.000 And Aquinas said, and we can also no longer say in the name of Jesus, rise up and walk.

00:27:40.000 Like we traded it for the empire, for the silver and gold, and we lost Christ's capacity to heal.

00:27:47.000 And so when we go to look at Judas as a human, here's a man who's walking with Jesus.

00:27:54.000 He's watching, he's heard every parable on good stewardship possible.

00:27:58.000 He's heard it a hundred times.

00:27:59.000 Don't bury your talents in the ground, you'll be cast off, you know, invest and be a good steward.

00:28:05.000 He's also heard Jesus talk about, I'm going to Jerusalem to die.

00:28:09.000 And that he wants to go. 0.52

00:28:11.000 And I think Judas is a good listener.

00:28:12.000 He's the one selected to entrust the funds to.

00:28:16.000 He's calculating.

00:28:17.000 He's smart.

00:28:18.000 He's thinking about the future.

00:28:20.000 Not Peter.

00:28:21.000 Peter's very in the moment.

00:28:22.000 He's loud.

00:28:23.000 He's brusque.

00:28:26.000 Peter has a very deep problem with feeling insignificant and he needs to make himself known and seen all the time.

00:28:36.000 And so he says, I'm the best and I'm not going to leave you and I'll fight for you and I'll die for you.

00:28:41.000 And even when Jesus says, I don't need anyone to fight for me, he's going to.

00:28:44.000 Fight, that's called disobedience.

00:28:46.000 That's disobedience.

00:28:47.000 It's not brave, it's disobedience.

00:28:49.000 Listen, I'm making all sorts of new content.

00:28:52.000 In a way, I want you to understand and appreciate the nature of Christ in a different way.

00:28:58.000 Not the Christ that you met even through your church, particularly if you had a negative experience of church or through the culture.

00:29:03.000 I mean, it's not South Park Jesus that I'm talking about. 1.00

00:29:06.000 It's not a blonde Jesus. 0.91

00:29:07.000 I'm talking about a potent, psychedelic, ever present Christ elevating your consciousness, present with you now. 1.00

00:29:13.000 I'm talking about a death.

00:29:14.000 of your false constructed self, your shame based, fear based identity and the resurrection of a living, live, light filled Christ within you.

00:29:24.000 Check out Angel Studios over the holidays.

00:29:26.000 You can watch stuff like Testament, The Case for Christ, Sound of Hope, King of Kings or Family Entertainment like that new David animation movie.

00:29:33.000 If you go to angel.com forward slash Russell they'll know that I sent you and then when I'm pitching them ideas and documentaries and I've got some good ideas then it will be good and favorable for me.

00:29:42.000 So if you're sick and tired of watching adrenochrome soap Entertainment from the Satanists in Hollywood, go over to Angel.

00:29:48.000 Download the app or watch it wherever you watch all your content.

00:29:52.000 Angel Studios is the one streaming platform that will leave you better than it found you.

00:29:58.000 Instead of like when you come off Netflix or Prime or whatever, you feel sort of like all quivering and infected, like spike proteins are moving through your vital organs, destroying you from within.

00:30:09.000 Don't get that on Angel.

00:30:09.000 So go to angel.com and use it.

00:30:11.000 And if you put forward slash Russell, like the link in the description right now, benefits me.

00:30:15.000 All right.

00:30:15.000 Stay free.

00:30:16.000 And so Judas is watching Peter's braggadocious, and Jesus keeps rebuking him and saying, That's not right.

00:30:23.000 Get out of my way.

00:30:24.000 Satan's influencing you.

00:30:26.000 I'm going to Jerusalem.

00:30:27.000 And so, from Judas' perspective as a planner, he's the person on your team you want doing what he's doing.

00:30:34.000 He's like, How can we accomplish the goals of the leader who keeps saying the goal?

00:30:40.000 How can we accomplish those goals in a way that this leader is all about good stewardship and investment and wise use of funds and all of that?

00:30:48.000 How can we do it in a way that's nonviolent?

00:30:50.000 Because he's nonviolent.

00:30:52.000 He doesn't want to fight.

00:30:53.000 Peter, did you notice?

00:30:53.000 He doesn't want to fight.

00:30:56.000 You guys are saying, call down fire on heaven and kill the Samaritans. 1.00

00:30:59.000 That's Peter and them, you know. 0.98

00:31:00.000 And Judas is watching all this.

00:31:02.000 He's peaceful.

00:31:03.000 He wants peace.

00:31:04.000 He wants to go fulfill his mission in a way.

00:31:07.000 How can we do that in the way that's peaceful and financially beneficial?

00:31:12.000 That's his question.

00:31:13.000 And so he does what's really quite smart.

00:31:16.000 He goes and he says, he's going to be here on this date.

00:31:20.000 You can go take them.

00:31:22.000 There's not going to be any resistance.

00:31:24.000 We can take them like that.

00:31:25.000 And the interesting thing, the thing that throws us in this is that when Jesus says that Satan has already entered him and he needs to go do what he's going to do.

00:31:35.000 But does it mean he's demon possessed?

00:31:38.000 Or does it mean he's hook, line, and sinker bought into the empire's view of how to handle a situation, which all of us are doing, but we would never call ourselves Judas.

00:31:47.000 But we are complicit in destruction of whole people groups under the influence of Satan, but we're all fine and good.

00:31:59.000 We can't keep putting this content out on YouTube.

00:32:02.000 You know why.

00:32:03.000 So click the link in the description.

00:32:05.000 Get over to Rumble and join us for the rest of this conversation.

00:32:10.000 It's beautiful, actually, to hear you describe his rational purview.

00:32:16.000 And rational is the apex of empire mentality.

00:32:20.000 That's right.

00:32:20.000 We can reason ourselves there.

00:32:22.000 If we can measure it, it's real.

00:32:23.000 If we can't measure it, it's mystery.

00:32:25.000 It's woo woo.

00:32:25.000 It's not there at all.

00:32:28.000 Rationalism leads to that betrayal.

00:32:31.000 And furthermore, as you explained to me, using still the mentality of the Pharisaic church, he seeks out redemption.

00:32:41.000 We explained that part as well.

00:32:42.000 Yeah, so that's why when he goes, well, was he possessed?

00:32:44.000 And, you know, was Peter possessed?

00:32:48.000 Jesus looks at him and says, Get behind me, Satan, looking at Peter.

00:32:52.000 So is he possessed?

00:32:53.000 Is he, you know, should he have an exorcism?

00:32:56.000 But it's what he does when he realizes he's wrong, which a demon possessed person wouldn't do.

00:33:01.000 When he realizes that he's wrong, he goes to make it right.

00:33:05.000 In the way he knows how to do it.

00:33:07.000 And it's really quite humiliating what he does, which Peter doesn't do any of this when he realizes he's wrong.

00:33:14.000 Judas, you know, Judas is like, okay, I've got to go back and return the money.

00:33:19.000 Like nobody said he had, who told him he had to do that?

00:33:22.000 Satan?

00:33:22.000 You know, that doesn't make any sense.

00:33:24.000 He's going to pay back what he did wrong to the religion, to religion, to the Pharisees.

00:33:31.000 He's going to go back to them and seek redemption and restoration by admitting he's wrong and returning the money.

00:33:38.000 It's the highest level of.

00:33:39.000 I'm wrong, he could do.

00:33:41.000 And he goes back to do it.

00:33:44.000 And what is heartbreaking to him is not that he betrayed Jesus.

00:33:49.000 That's not what plunges him into despair.

00:33:53.000 Realizing that you're a sinner doesn't have to plunge you into despair because you know there's redemption.

00:34:00.000 But knowing you're a sinner, now I'm powerless and alone.

00:34:03.000 I'm going to go back to the church and seek redemption, transformation, restoration.

00:34:10.000 And he goes back and they mock him.

00:34:13.000 They belittle him.

00:34:14.000 And so now he realizes in the depth of my error, there is no forgiveness.

00:34:20.000 Because this place will not and cannot redeem me.

00:34:24.000 And so he takes his own life.

00:34:27.000 Hey, can you let me know?

00:34:28.000 I want to do a watch along, read along with my book where I take you through the core stuff.

00:34:35.000 How, like, you know, because what I did was rather brilliantly, if you ask me, I used the creation story to find ways to enter into.

00:34:42.000 A life with Christ using what I understand already from the 12 steps.

00:34:47.000 One, you're in crisis.

00:34:48.000 Two, it's possible to change.

00:34:50.000 Three, you're going to be accepting a new way of life.

00:34:52.000 Four, five, you need confession and someone to connect with.

00:34:55.000 Six, and seven, you have to start identifying the particular areas where you fall.

00:34:59.000 Then eight, and nine, have you harmed anybody else?

00:35:02.000 I've got this lovely, lovely system that I was taught from the 12 steps and what I've applied here in this book, and I'd love to talk you through it.

00:35:10.000 Let me know in the comments and chat if you're into that.

00:35:12.000 And please remember, join us for Sunday service as me and my wife, Laura Brand.

00:35:16.000 At these times on this channel or wherever you get your content.

00:35:20.000 It's very sort of beautifully rendered.

00:35:22.000 And what I'm getting more broadly, Jamie, is that when you're approaching the, I don't even want to say scripture, it's another one of the words I find out, the writing of the Bible, the writing in the Bible, the books of the Bible is like it's, this even is a cliche, but it's living and it's alive.

00:35:38.000 I like what you said that it's reading you rather than you reading it.

00:35:40.000 But when you sort of go to it with that kind of foreclosed mind, a closed mind, you're only going to get the superficial story of Judas is a, An avatar of the concept of betrayal.

00:35:54.000 You won't recognize that what's fundamental about Judas is betrayal that he was living within the empire and the empire cannot redeem.

00:36:01.000 He goes to the empire for redemption. 0.72

00:36:03.000 Only Christ can redeem you.

00:36:05.000 And redeem, as you've explained to me, is to deem you again, to give you identity, to enliven you, to vitalize you, to give you vitality itself.

00:36:14.000 What I'm excited about is, and in fact, I was talking to Donna, your wife, and you won't be able to see, but he's off camera just here.

00:36:19.000 Is Donna Winship, say hello so that people know that you're real.

00:36:23.000 Hello.

00:36:23.000 That's Donna.

00:36:24.000 She's a real person.

00:36:26.000 I was talking about, I heard Donna explain it to one of our friends about being informed by and information.

00:36:35.000 And I was thinking, well, isn't there the concept of information?

00:36:37.000 And I was thinking, well, everything is information, whether you feel it in your stomach or whether you feel it in your mind.

00:36:41.000 If you are receiving stimuli, external stimuli that you're interpreting, that is information.

00:36:47.000 What I didn't notice is the subtlety of when you make it information, it's a noun, it's closed.

00:36:52.000 When it's informed by, You are living with it.

00:36:55.000 You are a participant.

00:36:57.000 It's happening now.

00:36:58.000 And one of the things I'm learning from your writing and actually what you're helping to clarify in me is that we are participating in something that's alive and that's happening now, that it's not dead, that it requires our participation, our living and live participation.

00:37:14.000 Now, to hear you, as I have done and as our audience already have done today, speak about scripture knowledgeably and in a way that's organic and real and present, it's difficult to imagine that for your.

00:37:25.000 Former job was that you were being a cop.

00:37:27.000 How are you being a cop and doing this?

00:37:31.000 How is this skill?

00:37:32.000 It seems like you've been a lifelong pastor and all you've ever done is read this stuff and talked about this stuff.

00:37:37.000 How are you working in a metropolitan area, policing drug addicts and handling crime using this?

00:37:43.000 Well, that's like, that's a great question.

00:37:45.000 So it's like the idea is we've been our true identities our whole life.

00:37:53.000 It's not a day that I became who I really am.

00:37:57.000 Like Kierkegaard said, with God's help, I'm becoming who I am.

00:38:00.000 And so the thing that drew me into the vocation of police officer was a longing to be who I really am.

00:38:10.000 So I didn't want to be, you know, of course, it took me a while to figure this out.

00:38:13.000 I didn't want to be a police officer because I wanted to be a police officer.

00:38:17.000 I wanted to be that vocation because somehow that vocation gave me opportunity to give my identity to the world.

00:38:26.000 And I would tell people all the time the only reason that you would select a vocation is because that vocation.

00:38:32.000 Allowed you the most freedom to give your identity as a gift to the world.

00:38:37.000 Like that's the beauty of vocation.

00:38:38.000 So Jesus's identity is beloved son.

00:38:42.000 His vocation is Messiah.

00:38:45.000 He didn't get his identity from his vocation.

00:38:48.000 He brought his identity into the vocation of Messiah.

00:38:51.000 So when the enemy comes to attack him, it's not like if you're the Messiah, that's not the, it's if you're the son.

00:38:57.000 It's not like if you're a police officer, it's like if you're an entire of knots, right?

00:39:02.000 And so that's the beauty.

00:39:03.000 That's why we're so frustrated is because.

00:39:05.000 Our identities are trapped in vocations that trap them.

00:39:09.000 Yes.

00:39:10.000 Their empire determined vocation rather than what allows my identity to be given in the most broad sense of what it is.

00:39:19.000 So, when I was, you know, and I talk about it a lot, but when I went to the movie when I was 14 and I see this movie of, you know, Frank Serpico, the famous New York detective, it wasn't the job of police officer, it was like a metaphor to the release of this identity that was built deep inside of me, you know, before the foundations.

00:39:43.000 This longing to go in situations where people were tied up and constricted in life and be who are they called?

00:39:52.000 Who, when there's no one else to call, are they going to pick up in the phone and call?

00:39:56.000 I wanted it to be me.

00:39:57.000 What vocation allows it to be me?

00:39:59.000 A police officer.

00:40:01.000 Yes.

00:40:01.000 Right?

00:40:01.000 Yes.

00:40:02.000 And then I get to go.

00:40:03.000 But until I discover that, then I would be like, I would be like Judas is coming to me as simply a police officer seeking some kind of redemption.

00:40:14.000 I just lock him up.

00:40:16.000 And, like, that's it.

00:40:16.000 I locked him up.

00:40:17.000 I did my job.

00:40:19.000 And I knew there had to be more than that.

00:40:21.000 So, when Peter, if Judas would have gone to Jesus, Jesus would have done to him exactly what he did to Peter.

00:40:29.000 He would ask him, like, tell me how you love me.

00:40:32.000 Do you love me by saving me money?

00:40:35.000 Do you love me by protecting?

00:40:37.000 Like, how do you love me?

00:40:38.000 And Peter, like, how do you love me?

00:40:39.000 Do you love me by saying you're better than everyone else, by you're my best guy?

00:40:44.000 Or do you love me because you love me from the deepest part of our relationship?

00:40:49.000 Together.

00:40:50.000 And that's restorative to people because he's telling them when he's saying to Peter, Peter never apologizes.

00:40:57.000 Jesus never asks him to apologize.

00:40:59.000 He says, Do you love me unconditionally like you tell everyone you do?

00:41:04.000 And Peter, truth tells, because he doesn't know.

00:41:07.000 He doesn't know the depth to which he loves Christ.

00:41:10.000 He knows he loves him, but do you love me unconditionally?

00:41:14.000 Do you really believe that?

00:41:18.000 And Peter, because of his failure, Because he did the worst possible thing he could ever do was cower and tell a servant girl that he's a.

00:41:29.000 I mean, one minute he's going to fight to the death with soldiers, and now he's terrified in front of this young woman.

00:41:37.000 It's this sense of like, oh my gosh, deep down, I don't really love unconditionally.

00:41:42.000 Deep down, I'm really, I'm not really courageous.

00:41:46.000 I'm just, in the moment, I'm impetuous, but I'm not courageous.

00:41:51.000 I don't think things through.

00:41:52.000 Courage comes from the heart.

00:41:54.000 It's like, It's like Hacksaw Ridge.

00:41:57.000 It's like, I came down, I saved three people.

00:41:59.000 I could go back and save more, should I?

00:42:01.000 That's courage.

00:42:02.000 Brave is just like, I don't have a choice.

00:42:04.000 I'm going to run into the machine gun nest.

00:42:06.000 Like, courage thinks, it comes from joy.

00:42:09.000 It's like, and so Peter's making these broad statements and these impetuous statements.

00:42:15.000 But when Jesus has them alone and says, Let's tell me what's really in your heart, like really truth tell, do you unconditionally love me?

00:42:22.000 And Peter will finally say, I don't.

00:42:26.000 I don't.

00:42:27.000 I only love you like a brother.

00:42:28.000 And Jesus says, okay, now you can lead.

00:42:32.000 Why?

00:42:33.000 Because I love you less than I really said I do?

00:42:36.000 Yes, because now you're going to lead.

00:42:38.000 You're going to speak the truth of the depth of who you really are.

00:42:41.000 Right?

00:42:42.000 Yes.

00:42:42.000 This makes me understand the idea of being dead in sin.

00:42:46.000 That when you are dead in sin, you are living in an identity that has no vitality in it.

00:42:51.000 It's not alive, it's not vibrating.

00:42:54.000 I heard once from this man, Yanis Varoufakis, he was one of them leaders when Greece did a kind of a A revolution, albeit democratically achieved after the financial crash in 2008.

00:43:06.000 A populist left wing party got into government.

00:43:09.000 Once they got into government, they were, the leader kind of betrayed them.

00:43:15.000 And like when the EU got involved, because they said, we're not paying back all these debts that have come around as a result of this corruption.

00:43:21.000 And that's what the Greek people voted for.

00:43:22.000 And in a democracy, that's what they would get.

00:43:24.000 But when they went to meet with the EU, they met with the head of the financial division, who was ostensibly the most powerful person in the world.

00:43:30.000 And he said, this guy did, like Yanis Varoufakis, where I was talking to him, he said, that man didn't have any power.

00:43:37.000 Even though he was ostensibly a very, very powerful person in a very, very powerful position, of course, if he did anything other than when Greece will be expelled from the European Union if they don't pay back the debt in exactly this way, that guy's out of a job and they'll just put someone in who will say, That's right.

00:43:53.000 You've got to go to the.

00:43:54.000 So that person's not actually even alive.

00:43:57.000 And that's a sort of, I think, albeit a bureaucratic, a somewhat vivid example of all of us are kind of dead in our role.

00:44:03.000 Even if I, oh, I'm a Hollywood actor.

00:44:06.000 And what I felt was the sort of, the throbbing tension, firstly, of, What was my vocation in the foot?

00:44:13.000 Like, what was my vocation?

00:44:15.000 What is my identity?

00:44:16.000 What was it I was trying to realize in all of that stuff?

00:44:20.000 I was trying to realize something else that's to do with communication, that's to do with connection, all manner of things were trying to be expressed unsuccessfully there because I had taken on the empire identity.

00:44:33.000 One of the things I like about your work, when you're describing this stuff about Peter and our Lord, you actually are showing people how to do that, how to do that now.

00:44:43.000 Because we can't do it then because it's now.

00:44:45.000 So, how do you do that?

00:44:48.000 Yeah.

00:44:49.000 So, in the role of police officer, you know, it says on our police cars that we're there to serve and protect.

00:44:57.000 And so, but we were trained to be law enforcers.

00:45:00.000 So, we're being trained to be managers of an empire when really the vocation could be very Christ like.

00:45:07.000 And so, it's which one do we choose to be?

00:45:10.000 But, well, we're trained in law enforcement, and law enforcers can only.

00:45:15.000 Produce conflict.

00:45:16.000 That's all that we're here to tell you you're guilty, basically.

00:45:19.000 Otherwise, we won't be here.

00:45:20.000 And when you're guilty, this is the punishment that we're here to exact on you.

00:45:24.000 So it creates this hostility and this isolationism and all that stuff.

00:45:29.000 And even as a police officer, you're arresting in moments where you're like, I really wouldn't probably wouldn't do this if I was human or real or didn't get judged on my number of arrests.

00:45:40.000 I probably would let this go.

00:45:41.000 I would probably, but you get calloused and you get hard, and your supervisor doesn't care if you made someone feel joyful.

00:45:48.000 You know, that's not the job.

00:45:51.000 But it is the human job.

00:45:52.000 And so, what I realized in that was if a person calls the police for whatever reason, or if I see a person about to commit a crime, how can I serve and protect that person?

00:46:06.000 What can I do that would, in my empowered role to detain a person or to make a person identify themselves to me or whatever, search them?

00:46:15.000 What can I do to help them walk them into a process of thinking that will actually, when I leave, help bring restoration to the rest?

00:46:23.000 Of their life.

00:46:25.000 So if a husband and wife or a couple call me and they're in the middle of destroying each other and we get 20 minutes with them, what would Jesus do in the 20 minutes?

00:46:36.000 Would he separate them and lock one of them up?

00:46:40.000 Or would he try and do something in their humanity addressing what's the cause of this conflict that can be dealt with and a process can be given right now that maybe we never have to come back here ever again?

00:46:53.000 And I started to realize.

00:46:56.000 The power of that vocation.

00:46:58.000 And so, what I would do with people is I mean, very early on, I started, I would be interacting with them and I would say, Can you tell me what you're mad about?

00:47:10.000 Can you, but mostly cops, you know, like shut your mouth, you be quiet, you stand over there.

00:47:14.000 It's like that.

00:47:15.000 We're going to do the job, we're going to get out of there, we're going to go to the next thing.

00:47:17.000 These are not humans, these are part of the job.

00:47:20.000 But like, tell me, tell me what you're mad about.

00:47:23.000 And because of the limit amount of time, or because my partner would get frustrated with me, I became very good at, like, let me help you say what it is.

00:47:32.000 I've done this 100 times with a lot of people.

00:47:34.000 Let me help you.

00:47:35.000 Humans can only get angry because they've suffered an injustice.

00:47:39.000 That's the only reason that any human can be angry is because they suffered an injustice.

00:47:43.000 God's anger is pure because it's only against injustice.

00:47:46.000 So he made people in his image to get angry at injustice.

00:47:50.000 The problem is the injustice we get mad about is only what's ever done to us and not to widows and orphans.

00:47:56.000 But so I would say you're angry at an injustice.

00:47:59.000 An injustice typically means you.

00:48:01.000 Believe, real, or perceive that something was stolen from you.

00:48:05.000 And that's okay to be angry about.

00:48:08.000 But tell me what was stolen from you.

00:48:11.000 What has been stolen from you tonight?

00:48:13.000 Was it your dignity?

00:48:14.000 Was it your money?

00:48:16.000 Was it your sense of value?

00:48:19.000 What was it?

00:48:20.000 And I'm teaching them how to tell the truth very quickly.

00:48:24.000 Can you tell me what was stolen?

00:48:26.000 Okay, she can't give that back to you.

00:48:28.000 She cannot give that back to you, but it can be given back to you by God right now.

00:48:35.000 That's how fast you could do it.

00:48:36.000 You were doing that on calls.

00:48:37.000 Yes.

00:48:38.000 And you know what people, you know what humans do when someone they perceive as a threat to them comes in and helps them understand a process of how to truth tell and have dignity and honor and forgiveness restored back to them?

00:48:53.000 They write letters to the chief of police.

00:48:57.000 And they say, Wow, we didn't know your officers know how to do this stuff.

00:49:02.000 And a good chief of police writes back and says, Thank you.

00:49:04.000 We're a very progressive police who has no idea what I just did.

00:49:08.000 You better believe they're going to take the credit for it.

00:49:10.000 I don't care.

00:49:11.000 I don't care.

00:49:11.000 That's fine.

00:49:13.000 And so, to the point where I just became so skilled at doing that, but it's because it's what Jesus is doing to me all the time, every day.

00:49:23.000 He's doing this to me.

00:49:24.000 What are you mad about?

00:49:26.000 I'm mad because Donna hurt my feelings.

00:49:29.000 I'm mad because something was taken from me.

00:49:32.000 I didn't get promoted like I should.

00:49:34.000 That's an injustice, isn't it?

00:49:35.000 Yeah.

00:49:35.000 What's the injustice?

00:49:37.000 I'm overlooked.

00:49:37.000 I'm the overlooked one.

00:49:40.000 Nobody pays attention to me.

00:49:41.000 Where did you learn that?

00:49:42.000 Who said that about you? 1.00

00:49:45.000 My mom used to never pay any attention to me. 1.00

00:49:47.000 Okay, she can't give that back to you.

00:49:49.000 I can give it back to you.

00:49:50.000 In myself, I'm doing that process.

00:49:53.000 And then I'm turning around because the people think we're stuck in a loan.

00:49:55.000 We're stuck in a loan.

00:49:56.000 We're stuck in a loan.

00:49:57.000 And a lot of them are because once you've arrested them six times, they can't get a license anymore.

00:50:02.000 They can't get it.

00:50:03.000 And they just stay in the hole and they can't get out.

00:50:06.000 And the system, the empire won't let them out.

00:50:09.000 Right.

00:50:10.000 But we can walk in there in any vocation, really.

00:50:14.000 And do it, but you can't give away what you don't have.

00:50:16.000 So it has to have been a process that we, I myself experienced by someone walking me through it, right?

00:50:24.000 Modeling it for me.

00:50:25.000 And then I can go do it.

00:50:26.000 And so my identity is I'm an untire of knots.

00:50:29.000 Like I love, and when I'm reading your book, like the way you talk, everything about this book and how you give examples and the way you talk is like, as I'm reading that and I'm looking, what's the identity of this author?

00:50:44.000 Some books you can't tell because they're not writing and they're not even attempting to give their identity.

00:50:49.000 They're just template writing or selling a book.

00:50:51.000 But like Somerset Mond said, some men write to sell books and some men write to unburden their soul, write to unburden your soul.

00:50:59.000 And so when I'm reading this, I'm like, what's he saying and what's his identity?

00:51:03.000 What's the identity talking in this book?

00:51:06.000 And I do know you a bit, but I can see in there that search for intimacy, that search for validation.

00:51:15.000 And the flies on the cross is just like, yeah, I get it.

00:51:20.000 Because he became shame for us.

00:51:23.000 All the flies went to him.

00:51:25.000 They did.

00:51:26.000 And they came off of us and they went to him.

00:51:28.000 No matter what, he took those on.

00:51:31.000 And so that means you're never stuck and you can't ever be alone.

00:51:35.000 That's never going to be true.

00:51:37.000 But for most of us, it's the thing we're most terrified of.

00:51:40.000 So, how quick can they call 911 or you stop?

00:51:45.000 We did this as an experiment with a police department in a city.

00:51:49.000 When you stop a car, For speeding or whatever, don't go up to him and go, Do you know how fast you were going?

00:51:55.000 That's an accusation. 0.53

00:51:56.000 And only one, we only have one accuser, and that's the enemy, the liar.

00:52:01.000 God never accuses people, ever.

00:52:04.000 So anytime we're using accusation, we're with the flies, we're with the enemy, right?

00:52:12.000 God doesn't accuse people.

00:52:13.000 Any leader that accuses people, any pastor that accuses people is of the enemy.

00:52:18.000 They're speaking, Satan has influenced them.

00:52:22.000 Oh no.

00:52:23.000 It's pretty good how, not to praise Satan, but like how it gets into your beingness and then you manifest your false identity as per programming.

00:52:33.000 It's very diabolical. 0.62

00:52:34.000 It's most diabolical.

00:52:36.000 Hey, have you ever seen my show that I do with my wife, my actual wife, Sunday service?

00:52:41.000 It's up every Sunday at these times.

00:52:44.000 Here's a little bit of it now.

00:52:45.000 Have a look.

00:52:55.000 Do you remember when they did the Oscars during COVID?

00:52:58.000 Like, you might never remember.

00:52:59.000 Well, they did it.

00:53:00.000 It was like in a dungeon or a cellar.

00:53:02.000 Oh, God.

00:53:03.000 Give us a bit of B roll while I talk over it.

00:53:05.000 It was like, it looked like a cruise ship that was in trouble.

00:53:10.000 You know, when you see a documentary about a cruise ship, like where someone jumped off the side or the bilge pumps stopped working.

00:53:17.000 It was like, now, whenever I see those ceremonial occasions, the Golden Globes, I would say they're ceremonies to false gods, false idols.

00:53:26.000 Like you and I, and everyone has a tendency to worship.

00:53:30.000 We were made to worship, i.e., we were made to adore and to pray.

00:53:35.000 And I think that if you don't get given what you're meant to be worshipping, then if you don't connect with what you're meant to be worshipping, you'll start worshipping anything.

00:53:44.000 That's the problem.

00:53:46.000 I think, I mean, gosh, yes, I've been to a few parties like that.

00:53:51.000 Go on then.

00:53:53.000 What, when Orlando Bloom dragged himself across your carpet like a dog does?

00:53:57.000 You know, when dogs.

00:53:59.000 Oh, Lando Bloom.

00:54:00.000 That was actually a private dinner party and there were more people.

00:54:03.000 It wasn't a private dinner party.

00:54:04.000 And he dragged himself across the floor, how dogs do when a dog scratches its bottom.

00:54:08.000 No, actually.

00:54:09.000 But it was a Lando Bloom.

00:54:10.000 Oh my gosh.

00:54:11.000 Oh my gosh.

00:54:12.000 That was actually a pretty good story.

00:54:15.000 But that was actually just a dinner party when I lived in London and he just turned up as someone's guest with them to play the game.

00:54:21.000 Why did he drag his bottom?

00:54:22.000 Well, there was just a lot of dancing.

00:54:24.000 I think it was sort of a break dancing move.

00:54:27.000 I'll be honest, I think it was sort of a break dancing move.

00:54:30.000 Anyway, yes, it was on the lip.

00:54:32.000 Yeah.

00:54:32.000 But that's not even the party that you.

00:54:33.000 No, no, no.

00:54:34.000 I mean, look, there's been that.

00:54:37.000 I almost don't want to mention because it's somebody that I've been friendly with.

00:54:41.000 Yeah.

00:54:41.000 But somebody's party in LA.

00:54:43.000 There's a lot of famous people there.

00:54:45.000 I think I know what you're talking about.

00:54:46.000 Someone you still love, though.

00:54:47.000 Yeah, I care about them.

00:54:49.000 And I also wouldn't want to, you know, disclose something that's sort of private.

00:54:52.000 You've got a lot more class than me.

00:54:55.000 Let's face it, I've already disclosed Orlando Bloom.

00:54:58.000 I know.

00:54:58.000 I have the image.

00:54:59.000 But it was only really to dispel the idea that there's some party that you're missing out.

00:55:04.000 And also.

00:55:04.000 Now, do you know what?

00:55:05.000 Because we've obviously touched on with each other what we might talk about in this Sunday service, although we don't plan it, we see how it sort of unfolds.

00:55:13.000 I do think it's relevant that at those parties, and I worked in hospitality in those environments that would put on the parties, so the members' clubs, or I was maybe, you know, managing an event or helping at an event that was sort of, and you can see as an onlooker, but also even when you're working at them.

00:55:36.000 You see that you're trying to find your identity in those places.

00:55:40.000 And so, if we're going to talk about things like maybe today, if we are going to talk about who we are in God, or, you know, some things that came up that we might read about, or identity, or the feelings of self worth and where we look for it, there are a lot of people, including I know myself, at those parties and at those times where you are looking to get your self worth from the event itself, from the way you look, from the way you're received by people, from what you might say, from who you might meet.

00:56:08.000 Most famous person you might meet, whatever it is.

00:56:11.000 And I do look back and think I just couldn't.

00:56:15.000 I'm talking really mainly like if you go to some award ceremony in the middle of a square in London, you know, in the marquees, it all feels like a dungeon anyway, actually.

00:56:24.000 Because if you're in back of house, back of house, it's just a marquee.

00:56:28.000 It's just like sometimes it's just a marquee or a tent.

00:56:30.000 Do they call them marquees?

00:56:31.000 I know.

00:56:33.000 Sorry.

00:56:34.000 Marquee, because I'm looking at that.

00:56:35.000 I get distracted by an actual camping tent that's in my line of vision.

00:56:39.000 A tent.

00:56:40.000 And it always feels like sort of a bit like a dungeon or not quite right anyway, or something, the back of a cruise ship or something, something not quite right.

00:56:48.000 But actually, the birthday party was somebody celebrating their birthday, and she was very beautiful and it was kind of very glamorous, but intimidating actually.

00:56:56.000 Intimidating to be around that sort of vibe, I guess.

00:57:00.000 They're meant to be intimidating.

00:57:01.000 The whole point of this culture is to make you feel ashamed, afraid, full of desire, and not good enough, as if there's something being dangled in front of you that you're being tantalized by and you're not quite getting or achieving.

00:57:13.000 Throughout the Old Testament, you hear of idols being erected in high places.

00:57:19.000 Places, altars in high places. 0.84

00:57:21.000 It's interesting the idea that they are aspirationally placed, false idols and false gods made by human hands.

00:57:28.000 But here on Sunday service, as we have seen in the comments, we are all part of a community where you need to have no fear of missing out because you are welcome here, you are included, and you are most beloved.

00:57:39.000 Whoever you are, wherever you're from, whatever you've done, you are welcome here.

00:57:50.000 This process that you do with identity exchange and that you describe in the War of Worldviews and in Living Fearless of helping people to be redeemed, to be absolved of their former identity, to itinerize and declare the negative names, which is something we do in 12 steps also in the inventory and confessional process of this is what I've been called myself, this is what I believe about myself, I'll present that before you.

00:58:20.000 Before revealing in Christ and with Christ the true identity, it's a very extraordinary process to participate in because I've done it with you.

00:58:34.000 And I feel like everyone watching this would benefit from this because you could just pass if you need to, Jake, or do anything you need to.

00:58:45.000 We need to wrap up like pretty quick.

00:58:48.000 Dr. Drew's live.

00:58:50.000 Dr. Drew is live, huh?

00:58:51.000 Maybe we can come back.

00:58:52.000 Maybe we can come back.

00:58:53.000 But, like, if you do, what I want to say, and we'll come back, we'll do some more, we'll do some more with the same ring.

00:59:00.000 Thanks, Jamie.

00:59:03.000 Is that when people watch the chaos of this world, and whether it's sort of problems that come as a result of policing, or come as a result of war, or financial corruption, or the myriad seemingly endless forms of corruption in this world, there's an interesting pattern that I can sort of see from listening to you because your sort of expertise in consultancy includes talking to athletes, talking to politicians, talking to leaders in communities.

00:59:27.000 And it always seems like it is the same problem.

00:59:29.000 They're living in a false identity.

00:59:31.000 They're not living in their. 0.88

00:59:31.000 Exactly. 0.88

00:59:32.000 Even the example you just gave, protect and serve, is a beautiful identity.

00:59:35.000 And if you lived in that identity as police force, that would be amazing.

00:59:38.000 I know loads of people that work, for example, in medicine and people that work in special forces where their actual identity is like protective warrior or healing.

00:59:47.000 You can sort of see and feel their true identity.

00:59:49.000 But they're not able to live that identity because there's a foreclosing, imposed, external counterfeit force.

00:59:49.000 Yes.

00:59:56.000 Preventing them.

00:59:56.000 That's right.

00:59:57.000 But like, so that's how it gets institutionalized.

01:00:00.000 Right.

01:00:01.000 But also.

01:00:02.000 That other sort of perennial problem people feel what can I do?

01:00:05.000 I'm just one person.

01:00:07.000 I can't do anything about this.

01:00:08.000 Well, actually, you can.

01:00:09.000 Oh, yes.

01:00:10.000 You can become who you really are in Him.

01:00:13.000 And now you are an awakened node and part of the circuitry of His return.

01:00:18.000 And I feel that's because you're able to do it in such an accessible way, it's very important that we're able to describe it to people.

01:00:28.000 Yeah, two things in that is that when Jesus is asking two questions, One is, who do you think I am?

01:00:34.000 Who do people say I am?

01:00:35.000 Who do you think I am?

01:00:36.000 And then he's asking us, who do you think you are?

01:00:38.000 And every time we answer both of those questions, we're too small.

01:00:42.000 It's too small.

01:00:44.000 Every time we say, who do you think I am?

01:00:46.000 And we say who we think he is, he's like, I'm far, far more than that.

01:00:50.000 And now, who do you think you are?

01:00:51.000 I'm this.

01:00:51.000 You're far more than that.

01:00:53.000 The whole empire is to reduce and constrict and constrain and shut down.

01:00:58.000 And I'm just one person.

01:01:00.000 But the whole Bible is, I just need one person. 0.94

01:01:03.000 Right? 0.60

01:01:03.000 Elijah's like, I'm the only one, but it's okay. 0.60

01:01:05.000 And then the next chapter, I'm the only one and I'm going to die.

01:01:09.000 It's just, you is enough.

01:01:11.000 Your true identity is enough.

01:01:12.000 You are enough.

01:01:13.000 We are enough.

01:01:14.000 Yeah, we can critique and energize.

01:01:16.000 Okay, we're going to have a quick break and I'll be back with Jamie Winship after this.

01:01:21.000 Might be an important message.

01:01:22.000 I've not seen it yet, but I'm assuming it's important.

01:01:26.000 Listen, the truth is, I had to end that conversation with Jamie Winship because Jamie's out there doing some work right now with our community and our group.

01:01:34.000 We want you to be part of this community.

01:01:36.000 At the moment, it's virtual.

01:01:37.000 One day.

01:01:38.000 It will be real and eternal.

01:01:40.000 Thank you very much for supporting us.

01:01:42.000 Remember, this book is out now.

01:01:44.000 We will be back on Wednesday, not for more of the same, but for more of the different.

01:01:50.000 Until then, if you can, stay free.

01:01:52.000 You read them in unison.

01:01:53.000 I don't mean like, you know, alternate words, but read them together.

01:01:56.000 Fantastic stuff.

01:01:57.000 Praise Jesus.

Stay Free - Russel Brand - May 18, 2026

You’re Not Who You Think You Are - SF718

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