00:00:17.000Thanks so much for joining me today for a very special edition of Stay Free with Russell Brand.
00:00:22.000My dear friend, the author Jamie Winship, is with me, and we're going to be talking about our two books.
00:00:28.000Mine, this one, How to Become Christian in Seven Days, may take 50 years of sin and serious f ups to get started, and Jamie's wonderful book, The War of World Views.
00:00:36.000Jamie, as you know, I hope, has been a A brilliant and wonderful and nourishing influence in my life as a writer and a thinker.
00:00:45.000But have a look at this to learn more about him.
00:00:48.000Patterns you've learned about yourself from a world that could care less about you.
00:00:53.000Broken, wounded world telling you who you are and you're going, I agree.0.89
00:01:00.000The way out is to believe about yourself, what God says about you.
00:01:07.000Jamie Winship is a former law enforcement officer who has.
00:01:10.000Spent years working in conflict zones, particularly in the Middle East, training and advising local police and communities.
00:01:15.000Today, through his work with Identity Exchange, he helps leaders and individuals identify the fears that drive their decisions and replace them with a clear understanding of who they are, teaching that when identity changes, behavior follows.
00:01:27.000Whatever I'm doing, are the people around me being transformed?
00:01:31.000If they are, I feel like I'm walking in the spirit with God.
00:01:37.000Wherever you're watching this, get over onto Rumble.
00:01:40.000And if you don't have Rumble Premium yet, get Rumble Premium now.
00:02:10.000We're redeemed innocent from the very beginning.
00:02:12.000And so, Lord, thank you for that and him and who he is.
00:02:17.000And Lord, thank you for the identity you've given me and the healing that you've given all of us and walked us into and brought us into because of your kindness that leads us to repentance.
00:02:28.000It's your love always that motivates you and towards us, and we're grateful and thankful for it.
00:02:33.000So, Lord, I just pray that you will guide this time, the wisdom of your Holy Spirit, and let us be vessels who say things and talk about things that bring healing to other people.
00:02:54.000Normally, I like, but I want to ask you stuff because the reason Jamie is here is because we've been working together and receiving the benefit of Jamie's wisdom, and Jamie's wife Donna is here just off camera for our team, our group, our organization.
00:03:16.000We're here ostensibly, of course, to talk about the world of.
00:03:20.000Excuse me, the war of worldviews, choosing connection in a culture of separation.
00:03:26.000I came to know Jamie when I read Jamie's book, Living Fearless.
00:03:31.000And as I told you last time we spoke, I did the exercises that are suggested in there and I found them effective all my life.
00:03:42.000Like the only thing that's been really delivered in a sense, well, I can think of a few actually now, but one of the things that's delivered is like the 12 steps.
00:03:52.000Like at school, when you're doing stuff, people get you to do stuff like you know, exercises, homework, or whatever, and it's sort of an imitation like, I've got to do this thing, it's not real.
00:04:00.000I felt very distracted and disconnected from reality.
00:04:03.000Disconnected, interesting that word, on the cover of your book.
00:04:06.000But when I did the 12 steps, the 12 steps really worked with me.
00:04:10.000In particular, the inventory aspect of the 12 steps really helped me to discover things about myself that I didn't know.
00:04:16.000I mean, of course, you think you know yourself.
00:04:27.000But when I did the prayers in Living Fearless and in reading, The War of Worldviews, which doesn't take, like, it doesn't, it's not instructional in exactly the same way.
00:04:37.000It doesn't tell you now pray in exactly the same way.
00:04:40.000But what I love about this book is that you take the idea of identity and map it onto culture.
00:05:01.000It's a beautiful book and we're going to be talking about it for the entirety of our conversation.
00:05:06.000Also, I want to talk about my book, How to Come Christian in Seven Days.
00:05:10.000It was kind of a pithy, like going in and out thinking it was a good title and then sort of regretting it a bit because I don't mean to be pithy.
00:05:42.000No, I want to know why you came up with that because I think it's really meaningful.
00:05:46.000Because actually, there are two occasions, clear occasions now, where I've had what I am terming, and I think I'm coining this, kinetic psychedelia.
00:05:57.000I suppose I've taken drugs and had experiences, hallucinogenic experiences.
00:06:01.000It's mostly visual or sometimes auditory.
00:06:05.000But when Jesus came to me, it was a visceral experience.
00:06:09.000Feeling which is visceral and kinetic, a feeling which is surprising because I'm so I think of myself as being cerebral and verbal.
00:06:18.000But when Christ came, it was in the guts, it was a feeling, it wasn't a thought, it wasn't a thought that I thought, it was a feeling that I felt in my guts.
00:06:28.000And that feeling was, and it was the feeling of a cross coming into my stomach.
00:06:33.000I would have described it as magnetic filings, I would have described it as magnetic filings pulled into the shape of a cross in my belly.
00:06:40.000In an instant, like that, and then, like that, I didn't obviously think I would be writing a book at that point.
00:06:46.000And over time, I thought about flies because of reading C.S. Lewis.
00:06:49.000What C.S. Lewis said before the earth was conceived or the universe created, Christ knew the sensation of the wounds on his back and the scars on his back as it pressed against the cross with the flies on his back.
00:07:03.000It's a very evocative and disturbing image.
00:07:06.000And when me and Laura, my wife, were thinking about the cover for this book, we talked about.
00:07:12.000That and the flies and the flies coming together, and we tried different lots of different versions of it.
00:07:19.000And then I found out I can't remember if who I was talking to, but sometimes it would be Elsewhere, Lord of the Flies.
00:07:23.000I'd probably heard it right like that.
00:07:26.000And I think of his shame being taken on, and I've become kind of addicted to Christ.
00:07:31.000I've become addicted to the idea of Christ.
00:07:34.000I've become addicted to the truth of Christ to the point that it's become the basis of my understanding of reality very, very quickly to a point where I would have thought it would make me perfect.
00:07:44.000But it hasn't made me perfect at all, but it has made me very, very different.
00:07:49.000What I mean by that is there's something very, very important about him dying for us, about taking sin onto him, about him absorbing sin in exactly this way like flies being sucked in, like shame being sucked in.
00:08:02.000And so, thank you for giving me indulging me and allowing me to talk about that.
00:08:06.000Because what this book has, what this book is an attempt for me to do, Jamie, is to say that coming to Christ has been surprising, it's not what I thought it was going to be.
00:08:22.000My whole life I've been aware of Jesus and it's not really appealed to me, except actually when I think back, strangely, I'm obsessed with Jesus.
00:08:35.000When I had the opportunity to choose a Vedic mantra when I was with the beloved Amma, I chose one that was oriented towards Christ, not Krishna, which was much more the center of my life.0.97
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00:09:57.000So you also came to our Lord Jamie in a way that was.
00:10:02.000That sounds to me somewhat surprising because I know that you had at least one parent that was Christian, but I know that it's an encounter with a teacher, an inadvertent teacher that led you first to Christ.
00:10:14.000And what I like most about your work and what I want our audience to understand, because I think you do it better than anybody else actually, is that having a relationship with Christ needn't be ensconced in the church, that it's very intimate and personal and mystical.
00:10:44.000Because you, and I think this will demonstrate the point, is when you said you consider yourself a very cerebral, right, person, but the way Jesus came to you was very visceral.
00:11:10.000Well, the answer that comes is that I would have sort of claimed it.
00:11:14.000If it had come in there, I'd have thought it was me.
00:11:17.000I would have gone, no, this is me thinking a thing.0.99
00:11:20.000Like, if I was, because obviously I'm aware that one of the things was, you know, when I went back, here's Morgan, is you're a fraud, you're a charlatan, you're a huckster.0.93
00:11:30.000And, of course, yeah, in a thousand ways, of course, these are the accusations that, you know, they're not the worst accusations I have to deal with, let me tell you.0.83
00:11:51.000And that's really important because when we encounter Christ, however we do, he's coming to us in the way he made us to know him and receive him, in the way that he knows we were made to receive him.
00:12:06.000So we might think, well, it's going to be intellectual because I'm intellectual, or people say to me, well, I have an engineering mind.
00:12:12.000So it's difficult for me to imagine things.
00:12:14.000And I say, do you think God doesn't know that you have an engineering mind?
00:12:18.000So, how do you think he's going to come to you if he gave you an engineering mind?
00:12:21.000He's not going to give you an engineering mind so it's difficult for you to hear him.
00:12:34.000And so, when the time you and I prayed together pretty intensely, because of how you told me how you first experienced the real Christ, I knew that if we were going to invite, he was going to come the same way again.
00:13:03.000Sometimes I forget I didn't invent everything, you know, like whether it's like the 12 steps or the English language or all these things that I'm the beneficiary of.
00:13:10.000I sort of think, like, out of some personal security thing, this is mine, this is mine.
00:13:15.000But, like, I didn't think before, I am his, but I didn't think before.
00:13:22.000The prayer that we were doing, because as I explained in the book Living Fearless, Jamie outlines how to pray in ways that invite you and help you to participate in an encounter with Christ in a way that's very, very real and mysterious.
00:13:34.000I didn't, even though I was doing that with you and when I read the book, I've got to meet Jamie, and by God's grace, that's happened.
00:13:40.000I didn't think that I would have that experience.
00:14:04.000And how you might be saying, I want you to come to me is not the way that you really want him to come to you.
00:14:10.000He knows he because he made you and he loves you, he knows how to come to you in a way that meets you sort of beyond doubt.
00:14:19.000And people, when we're doing this with people and they have an encounter with Christ, I'll ask them, um, Would you say that about yourself, what you just heard?
00:14:38.000This is how God comes to you in a way that you know it's Him, that you know it's Him.
00:14:43.000And so even when we, just because I've heard you talk and explain, and if you're listening to a person, they will say things that kind of allow you to kind of predict how the Lord's going to come to them.
00:15:18.000And the healing, also the sight of the injury that I feel like I've carried is very abdominal.
00:15:24.000It's interesting because one of the, see, when I first, I became Christian in a place where really Christianity, Maybe laterally there's some talk of revival actually, but it feels old, it feels dead, it feels grey.
00:15:42.000Like amazing Christians that are in England.
00:15:45.000But in general, the Church of England, it feels like it doesn't really know what it's doing and that from its advent, in fact, it's a sort of by nature a castrated organ.
00:15:55.000So, probably not something I should get involved in.
00:15:58.000But like, what I feel like now in your country is that Christianity somehow bears the inflection of American culture, commodification, commercialization.
00:16:08.000Like, American evangelism almost already sounds bad before you perjure the term.
00:16:15.000Excited about and interested about, I want to learn more about Jamie.
00:16:18.000Is that you talk about Jesus in a way that doesn't make it churchy or seem like there's this sort of imitative thing I've sort of noticed around Christianity.
00:16:30.000I've noticed words that I don't care for too much, and some of them are quite integral sin, heaven, sanctification.
00:16:37.000A lot of these words seem a bit like they're carrying unnecessary baggage.
00:16:41.000I want to understand how you are communicating.
00:16:44.000What is it about your particular journey?
00:16:47.000Like, you know, in case people don't know yet, that you're in the police force, that you worked a lot in the Middle East and in Muslim countries, and have done a lot of, as it says in Living Fearless, a lot of missionary work in Muslim communities.
00:16:59.000How is it and what is it that you have discovered about talking about Jesus that makes it accessible?
00:17:20.000And what, if I could simplify it, whether I'm talking to Uighur Muslims in China or atheists or anyone, any human anywhere, I can almost start because I happen to be human.
00:17:34.000Is that when I'm talking to the person, if I ask them, and this is what you referred to, can you tell me what you believe?0.53
00:18:25.000But if they don't know the truth about themselves, so I can say to a person, I can tell you right now that your deepest fear as a human is that you're powerless and alone.
00:18:36.000I know because that is the deepest fear of every single human being on the planet.
00:18:41.000Whether they can say it or not, ultimately it's I'm in a situation that I can't get out of and there's nobody here to help me.
00:18:51.000So it's like Jesus talking to the paralytic, waiting for the angel to come down and stir the water.
00:20:25.000So, like, that in that, when it's Baphsaida, is that pool in it?
00:20:30.000There's meant to be a healing pool, a bit like Lourdes or something like that.
00:20:34.000And yeah, see, as a person from a 12 step background, I understand not only how the 12 steps apply to alcoholism and drug addiction, but also how they're applied in human relationships.
00:20:43.000Primarily through things like codependency and sort of holding on to old self pitying beliefs.
00:21:07.000Going out into the world and trying to get my identity from the culture.
00:21:11.000What is fame and celebrity other than an amplified attempt to get your identity?
00:21:16.000In the terms and by the metrics of the culture.
00:21:19.000And then why are you surprised when it doesn't work?
00:21:22.000You know what's interesting for me, like a person that feels like I'm over it, but by God's grace, it will be redeemed, is like when I watch people that are occupying that place in the culture now, take for one example Billie Eilish, who's a big pop star in the world now.
00:21:35.000Of course, I've been around and been married to one time the biggest pop star in the world.
00:21:41.000And I notice when I watch her, she's obviously brilliantly talented and very gifted and writes her own songs and she seems like a Pretty beautiful and incredible person in a whole bunch of ways.
00:21:50.000But when she talks about stuff, I see her dealing with the mantle of celebrity.
00:21:56.000I'm in the culture now, so I'm supposed to say stuff, aren't I?
00:22:01.000You know, I believe in being a vegan, which is a perfectly good thing for a person to believe in.
00:22:04.000Or I believe in honoring indigenous people, perfectly good thing to believe in.0.88
00:22:08.000And then I watch how she's deluged and slaughtered in the culture.0.99
00:22:14.000Before, you know, like before watching the, the, by what I recognizes that Billie Eilish is still transacting in the market.
00:22:21.000And the currency of the empire, to use one of the terms that I love in your book, using empire to mean worldliness and kingdom to mean the kingdom of God.
00:22:32.000Prior to that, I did notice the themes and Jungian shapes available, in particular around female celebrity, and it's real notable in my culture.
00:22:40.000Here are just three examples two you'll have heard of, I'm sure Princess Diana, Amy Winehouse, you may not have heard of Jade Goodig, she was a reality TV star, but she happened to be a friend of mine, and Caroline Flash.
00:22:53.000These were sort of like women that the culture really raised up.1.00
00:22:56.000And obviously, Diana, think of the Diana model.
00:22:58.000And then the culture, one might say, even though I'm sure there's complexity one person dying of addiction, another one by suicide, another one in this way or that, cancer, whatever.
00:23:06.000But I'm talking about the way they interface with the culture and with identity in particular, given that so much of your work focuses on your identity in the world and your identity in Christ.
00:23:14.000And that all of us get trapped in our worldly identity because whether we know it or not, we're worshipping it.
00:23:20.000We're sitting there at that pool waiting for it to save us somehow.
00:23:25.000What I also noticed that, like Winehouse, God rest their soul, and Diana and the other women I mentioned, they were kind of sacrificed by the culture.
00:23:33.000The culture kind of ate them, consumed them, devoured them.0.80
00:23:37.000Up, it sort of wanted them kind of dead, and then obviously, I see how it interacts with and relates to me.
00:23:45.000We were talking earlier this week about uh Judas, in fact, and Judas's relationship with the church, and how he, in a sense, well, could you tell the story again because you're very good at this?
00:23:57.000Yeah, well, I mean, it's like it's like what we're talking about is so we were talking about the comparison between Judas and Peter.
00:24:07.000And how they're actually pretty similar in that both of them, under some sort of satanic influence, make decisions, right?
00:24:16.000Peter to deny that he even knows Jesus, and Judas to betray in another way.
00:24:25.000Like he never, he didn't publicly deny Jesus.
00:24:30.000What he did was turn Jesus over to the authorities in a way that he made money off of, or there's financial return that also avoided violence.
00:25:15.000It's like, The poor guy doesn't have a chance.
00:25:19.000But when we look at, but when we read the story like he's a human being, right, not just predestined to hell, but he's a human and Peter's a human, I think we read this story differently.
00:25:29.000And then if we tell the truth about ourselves, because the Bible, we're not reading the Bible, the Bible's reading us.
00:25:35.000It's like in this situation, and that's why I think that's how we have to read Judas.
00:25:39.000So oftentimes when I'm talking about biblical characters, I would say, yeah, you guys revere this character now, but if that character presented their idea to you, you'd reject it outright.
00:25:50.000So, like, if one time I was teaching a bunch of, we were speaking at a conference for high school principals, Christian principals, high school Christian principals.
00:25:59.000And I gave a resume and said, who would hire this person?
00:26:39.000Yeah, well, they would dismiss him outright.
00:26:41.000Even if I said, yeah, but he's had a turn in his life.
00:26:44.000He's a new, he'd be on the talk show getting annihilated because of where he's come from.
00:26:49.000And so, even at a mission board one time, I presented the plan of Elijah.
00:26:55.000And I made a spoof of it because they would be like, well, how much is the trash pickup going to cost us?
00:27:01.000They'd be so down in empire detail, they would miss the meaning of what's happening.
00:27:07.000And so, because we read the Bible, is the point of my book.
00:27:10.000And it's really what you're saying also that our lens is so skewed on how we see the world because we're empire trained.
00:27:20.000And so, even the church empire, you were talking the other day about the Vatican, and I remember that Aquinas quote where he says he's walking with.
00:27:28.000The Pope and the Pope says, looking at the splendor of the Vatican, and says, Well, we can no longer say silver and gold have I none.
00:27:35.000And Aquinas said, and we can also no longer say in the name of Jesus, rise up and walk.
00:27:40.000Like we traded it for the empire, for the silver and gold, and we lost Christ's capacity to heal.
00:27:47.000And so when we go to look at Judas as a human, here's a man who's walking with Jesus.
00:27:54.000He's watching, he's heard every parable on good stewardship possible.
00:29:14.000of your false constructed self, your shame based, fear based identity and the resurrection of a living, live, light filled Christ within you.
00:29:24.000Check out Angel Studios over the holidays.
00:29:26.000You can watch stuff like Testament, The Case for Christ, Sound of Hope, King of Kings or Family Entertainment like that new David animation movie.
00:29:33.000If you go to angel.com forward slash Russell they'll know that I sent you and then when I'm pitching them ideas and documentaries and I've got some good ideas then it will be good and favorable for me.
00:29:42.000So if you're sick and tired of watching adrenochrome soap Entertainment from the Satanists in Hollywood, go over to Angel.
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00:29:58.000Instead of like when you come off Netflix or Prime or whatever, you feel sort of like all quivering and infected, like spike proteins are moving through your vital organs, destroying you from within.
00:30:27.000And so, from Judas' perspective as a planner, he's the person on your team you want doing what he's doing.
00:30:34.000He's like, How can we accomplish the goals of the leader who keeps saying the goal?
00:30:40.000How can we accomplish those goals in a way that this leader is all about good stewardship and investment and wise use of funds and all of that?
00:30:48.000How can we do it in a way that's nonviolent?
00:31:25.000And the interesting thing, the thing that throws us in this is that when Jesus says that Satan has already entered him and he needs to go do what he's going to do.
00:31:35.000But does it mean he's demon possessed?
00:31:38.000Or does it mean he's hook, line, and sinker bought into the empire's view of how to handle a situation, which all of us are doing, but we would never call ourselves Judas.
00:31:47.000But we are complicit in destruction of whole people groups under the influence of Satan, but we're all fine and good.
00:31:59.000We can't keep putting this content out on YouTube.
00:34:50.000Three, you're going to be accepting a new way of life.
00:34:52.000Four, five, you need confession and someone to connect with.
00:34:55.000Six, and seven, you have to start identifying the particular areas where you fall.
00:34:59.000Then eight, and nine, have you harmed anybody else?
00:35:02.000I've got this lovely, lovely system that I was taught from the 12 steps and what I've applied here in this book, and I'd love to talk you through it.
00:35:10.000Let me know in the comments and chat if you're into that.
00:35:12.000And please remember, join us for Sunday service as me and my wife, Laura Brand.
00:35:16.000At these times on this channel or wherever you get your content.
00:35:20.000It's very sort of beautifully rendered.
00:35:22.000And what I'm getting more broadly, Jamie, is that when you're approaching the, I don't even want to say scripture, it's another one of the words I find out, the writing of the Bible, the writing in the Bible, the books of the Bible is like it's, this even is a cliche, but it's living and it's alive.
00:35:38.000I like what you said that it's reading you rather than you reading it.
00:35:40.000But when you sort of go to it with that kind of foreclosed mind, a closed mind, you're only going to get the superficial story of Judas is a, An avatar of the concept of betrayal.
00:35:54.000You won't recognize that what's fundamental about Judas is betrayal that he was living within the empire and the empire cannot redeem.
00:36:01.000He goes to the empire for redemption.0.72
00:36:05.000And redeem, as you've explained to me, is to deem you again, to give you identity, to enliven you, to vitalize you, to give you vitality itself.
00:36:14.000What I'm excited about is, and in fact, I was talking to Donna, your wife, and you won't be able to see, but he's off camera just here.
00:36:19.000Is Donna Winship, say hello so that people know that you're real.
00:36:58.000And one of the things I'm learning from your writing and actually what you're helping to clarify in me is that we are participating in something that's alive and that's happening now, that it's not dead, that it requires our participation, our living and live participation.
00:37:14.000Now, to hear you, as I have done and as our audience already have done today, speak about scripture knowledgeably and in a way that's organic and real and present, it's difficult to imagine that for your.
00:37:25.000Former job was that you were being a cop.
00:37:27.000How are you being a cop and doing this?
00:39:10.000Their empire determined vocation rather than what allows my identity to be given in the most broad sense of what it is.
00:39:19.000So, when I was, you know, and I talk about it a lot, but when I went to the movie when I was 14 and I see this movie of, you know, Frank Serpico, the famous New York detective, it wasn't the job of police officer, it was like a metaphor to the release of this identity that was built deep inside of me, you know, before the foundations.
00:39:43.000This longing to go in situations where people were tied up and constricted in life and be who are they called?
00:39:52.000Who, when there's no one else to call, are they going to pick up in the phone and call?
00:40:03.000But until I discover that, then I would be like, I would be like Judas is coming to me as simply a police officer seeking some kind of redemption.
00:42:54.000I heard once from this man, Yanis Varoufakis, he was one of them leaders when Greece did a kind of a A revolution, albeit democratically achieved after the financial crash in 2008.
00:43:06.000A populist left wing party got into government.
00:43:09.000Once they got into government, they were, the leader kind of betrayed them.
00:43:15.000And like when the EU got involved, because they said, we're not paying back all these debts that have come around as a result of this corruption.
00:43:21.000And that's what the Greek people voted for.
00:43:22.000And in a democracy, that's what they would get.
00:43:24.000But when they went to meet with the EU, they met with the head of the financial division, who was ostensibly the most powerful person in the world.
00:43:30.000And he said, this guy did, like Yanis Varoufakis, where I was talking to him, he said, that man didn't have any power.
00:43:37.000Even though he was ostensibly a very, very powerful person in a very, very powerful position, of course, if he did anything other than when Greece will be expelled from the European Union if they don't pay back the debt in exactly this way, that guy's out of a job and they'll just put someone in who will say, That's right.
00:44:16.000What was it I was trying to realize in all of that stuff?
00:44:20.000I was trying to realize something else that's to do with communication, that's to do with connection, all manner of things were trying to be expressed unsuccessfully there because I had taken on the empire identity.
00:44:33.000One of the things I like about your work, when you're describing this stuff about Peter and our Lord, you actually are showing people how to do that, how to do that now.
00:44:43.000Because we can't do it then because it's now.
00:45:20.000And when you're guilty, this is the punishment that we're here to exact on you.
00:45:24.000So it creates this hostility and this isolationism and all that stuff.
00:45:29.000And even as a police officer, you're arresting in moments where you're like, I really wouldn't probably wouldn't do this if I was human or real or didn't get judged on my number of arrests.
00:45:52.000And so, what I realized in that was if a person calls the police for whatever reason, or if I see a person about to commit a crime, how can I serve and protect that person?
00:46:06.000What can I do that would, in my empowered role to detain a person or to make a person identify themselves to me or whatever, search them?
00:46:15.000What can I do to help them walk them into a process of thinking that will actually, when I leave, help bring restoration to the rest?
00:46:25.000So if a husband and wife or a couple call me and they're in the middle of destroying each other and we get 20 minutes with them, what would Jesus do in the 20 minutes?
00:46:36.000Would he separate them and lock one of them up?
00:46:40.000Or would he try and do something in their humanity addressing what's the cause of this conflict that can be dealt with and a process can be given right now that maybe we never have to come back here ever again?
00:46:58.000And so, what I would do with people is I mean, very early on, I started, I would be interacting with them and I would say, Can you tell me what you're mad about?
00:47:10.000Can you, but mostly cops, you know, like shut your mouth, you be quiet, you stand over there.
00:47:15.000We're going to do the job, we're going to get out of there, we're going to go to the next thing.
00:47:17.000These are not humans, these are part of the job.
00:47:20.000But like, tell me, tell me what you're mad about.
00:47:23.000And because of the limit amount of time, or because my partner would get frustrated with me, I became very good at, like, let me help you say what it is.
00:47:32.000I've done this 100 times with a lot of people.
00:48:38.000And you know what people, you know what humans do when someone they perceive as a threat to them comes in and helps them understand a process of how to truth tell and have dignity and honor and forgiveness restored back to them?
00:48:53.000They write letters to the chief of police.
00:48:57.000And they say, Wow, we didn't know your officers know how to do this stuff.
00:49:02.000And a good chief of police writes back and says, Thank you.
00:49:04.000We're a very progressive police who has no idea what I just did.
00:49:08.000You better believe they're going to take the credit for it.
00:49:13.000And so, to the point where I just became so skilled at doing that, but it's because it's what Jesus is doing to me all the time, every day.
00:50:26.000And so my identity is I'm an untire of knots.
00:50:29.000Like I love, and when I'm reading your book, like the way you talk, everything about this book and how you give examples and the way you talk is like, as I'm reading that and I'm looking, what's the identity of this author?
00:50:44.000Some books you can't tell because they're not writing and they're not even attempting to give their identity.
00:50:49.000They're just template writing or selling a book.
00:50:51.000But like Somerset Mond said, some men write to sell books and some men write to unburden their soul, write to unburden your soul.
00:50:59.000And so when I'm reading this, I'm like, what's he saying and what's his identity?
00:51:03.000What's the identity talking in this book?
00:51:06.000And I do know you a bit, but I can see in there that search for intimacy, that search for validation.
00:51:15.000And the flies on the cross is just like, yeah, I get it.
00:52:23.000It's pretty good how, not to praise Satan, but like how it gets into your beingness and then you manifest your false identity as per programming.
00:53:03.000Give us a bit of B roll while I talk over it.
00:53:05.000It was like, it looked like a cruise ship that was in trouble.
00:53:10.000You know, when you see a documentary about a cruise ship, like where someone jumped off the side or the bilge pumps stopped working.
00:53:17.000It was like, now, whenever I see those ceremonial occasions, the Golden Globes, I would say they're ceremonies to false gods, false idols.
00:53:26.000Like you and I, and everyone has a tendency to worship.
00:53:30.000We were made to worship, i.e., we were made to adore and to pray.
00:53:35.000And I think that if you don't get given what you're meant to be worshipping, then if you don't connect with what you're meant to be worshipping, you'll start worshipping anything.
00:55:05.000Because we've obviously touched on with each other what we might talk about in this Sunday service, although we don't plan it, we see how it sort of unfolds.
00:55:13.000I do think it's relevant that at those parties, and I worked in hospitality in those environments that would put on the parties, so the members' clubs, or I was maybe, you know, managing an event or helping at an event that was sort of, and you can see as an onlooker, but also even when you're working at them.
00:55:36.000You see that you're trying to find your identity in those places.
00:55:40.000And so, if we're going to talk about things like maybe today, if we are going to talk about who we are in God, or, you know, some things that came up that we might read about, or identity, or the feelings of self worth and where we look for it, there are a lot of people, including I know myself, at those parties and at those times where you are looking to get your self worth from the event itself, from the way you look, from the way you're received by people, from what you might say, from who you might meet.
00:56:08.000Most famous person you might meet, whatever it is.
00:56:11.000And I do look back and think I just couldn't.
00:56:15.000I'm talking really mainly like if you go to some award ceremony in the middle of a square in London, you know, in the marquees, it all feels like a dungeon anyway, actually.
00:56:24.000Because if you're in back of house, back of house, it's just a marquee.
00:56:28.000It's just like sometimes it's just a marquee or a tent.
00:56:40.000And it always feels like sort of a bit like a dungeon or not quite right anyway, or something, the back of a cruise ship or something, something not quite right.
00:56:48.000But actually, the birthday party was somebody celebrating their birthday, and she was very beautiful and it was kind of very glamorous, but intimidating actually.
00:56:56.000Intimidating to be around that sort of vibe, I guess.
00:57:01.000The whole point of this culture is to make you feel ashamed, afraid, full of desire, and not good enough, as if there's something being dangled in front of you that you're being tantalized by and you're not quite getting or achieving.
00:57:13.000Throughout the Old Testament, you hear of idols being erected in high places.
00:57:21.000It's interesting the idea that they are aspirationally placed, false idols and false gods made by human hands.
00:57:28.000But here on Sunday service, as we have seen in the comments, we are all part of a community where you need to have no fear of missing out because you are welcome here, you are included, and you are most beloved.
00:57:39.000Whoever you are, wherever you're from, whatever you've done, you are welcome here.
00:57:50.000This process that you do with identity exchange and that you describe in the War of Worldviews and in Living Fearless of helping people to be redeemed, to be absolved of their former identity, to itinerize and declare the negative names, which is something we do in 12 steps also in the inventory and confessional process of this is what I've been called myself, this is what I believe about myself, I'll present that before you.
00:58:20.000Before revealing in Christ and with Christ the true identity, it's a very extraordinary process to participate in because I've done it with you.
00:58:34.000And I feel like everyone watching this would benefit from this because you could just pass if you need to, Jake, or do anything you need to.
00:59:03.000Is that when people watch the chaos of this world, and whether it's sort of problems that come as a result of policing, or come as a result of war, or financial corruption, or the myriad seemingly endless forms of corruption in this world, there's an interesting pattern that I can sort of see from listening to you because your sort of expertise in consultancy includes talking to athletes, talking to politicians, talking to leaders in communities.
00:59:27.000And it always seems like it is the same problem.
00:59:32.000Even the example you just gave, protect and serve, is a beautiful identity.
00:59:35.000And if you lived in that identity as police force, that would be amazing.
00:59:38.000I know loads of people that work, for example, in medicine and people that work in special forces where their actual identity is like protective warrior or healing.
00:59:47.000You can sort of see and feel their true identity.
00:59:49.000But they're not able to live that identity because there's a foreclosing, imposed, external counterfeit force.
01:01:22.000I've not seen it yet, but I'm assuming it's important.
01:01:26.000Listen, the truth is, I had to end that conversation with Jamie Winship because Jamie's out there doing some work right now with our community and our group.
01:01:34.000We want you to be part of this community.