Episode 21 - Breaking Down the Democrats' Police Reform Bill
Episode Stats
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Summary
In Minneapolis, the police department is to be defunded, not reformed, not changed, but dismantled, and a city council member was on CNN with Allison Camerata and had a remarkable exchange about it. Do you understand that the word "defund" or "police free" also makes some people nervous?
Transcript
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Welcome to Hot Takes. This is Congressman Matt Gaetz. Let's talk about the news. And
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the news of the day is surrender in some of America's major cities. In the city of Minneapolis,
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the police department is going to be not just defunded, not reformed, not changed,
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but dismantled by their city council. And one of the city council members from Minneapolis was on
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CNN with Allison Camerata and just a remarkable exchange. Take a listen. Do you understand that
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the word dismantle or police free also makes some people nervous? For instance, what if in the middle
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of the night, my home is broken into? Who do I call? Yes. I mean, I hear that loud and clear
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from a lot of my neighbors. And I know, and myself too, and I know that that comes from a place of
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privilege because for those of us for whom the system is working, I think we need to step back
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and imagine what it would feel like to already live in that reality where calling the police may
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mean more harm is done. Sometimes the call doesn't come from a place of privilege. It calls from a
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place of fear, concern for your family. You know, I mean, when someone calls 911, because there's an
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intruder in their home, and they're concerned for their children, they don't want a social worker to
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show up. They don't want someone to show up who can counsel them through their white guilt. They want
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someone who can neutralize a threat. That's what we have to have in society. And I am not expecting
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this trend of dismantling the police to sweep our nation. But when you see that Mayor Garcetti is
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taking action like this in the city of Los Angeles, when you see in Washington, D.C., Mariel Bowser
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not stating with conviction and courage that defund police is not part of the Black Lives Matter
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mantra that she has used the imprimatur of government to establish in Lafayette Square. It's a real slide.
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It's something that we can't tolerate. And I sure hope that in the right and proper and
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just thinking communities across this great country that we stand with those who are willing to stand
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against the criminals. I joined Lou Dobbs to make very clear that I stood for order in our streets and
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protection for our citizens against the angry mob. Here's my exchange with Lou Dobbs. As we look across the
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country, we see a vision from the radical left that is downright terrifying. They want to lock us in our
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homes, take our guns away, make the jobs that had us prosperous illegal, and then they want to
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defund the police while a radical mob runs down the street lighting things on fire, throwing cinder blocks
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and crashing our cars. I have no interest in that, America. I want an America where we support the police,
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where we utilize every resource available to ensure that they're responsive to their communities. And
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the overwhelming number of people who wear that uniform, whether it's in our law enforcement or in
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our National Guard, they do it because they love America and they love Americans. And we need to stand
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with them and against these riots that seem to be terrorizing people in the name of a politics that is
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radical and leftist. This week, the House Judiciary Committee will meet to consider legislation
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on the issue of police reform. Democrats unveiled that legislation yesterday. We're starting to get
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into our review and research of it. And I thought I'd talk about some of the key elements where I think
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there might be areas of agreement and where there may be some concern that the outcomes that my colleagues
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desire for safer communities might not be fully achieved if you create a withdrawal from police
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engagement in areas where that engagement is absolutely needed. But let's talk about the first
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major element of the Democrat police reform legislation, and it's to ban the chokehold.
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Now, I've not ever been in a chokehold. I can't imagine the experience would be all that pleasant.
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But it does beg the question, if any police are in an environment with someone that they need to
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neutralize who's not being compliant, what are the tools that you want at the police's disposal?
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We certainly don't want them to start by using lethal force. So obviously,
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you want to begin with your non-lethal options. And certainly, you don't want anything that's going
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to create any lasting impact. You want a temporary neutralization of someone who is resisting the
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verbal commands of police. So if the chokehold is not going to be one of the tools, you have to look
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at what other options might be available. Now, some places use arm bars. That could potentially break an
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arm. It also leaves someone with the ability to sort of move the other side of their body,
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which could escalate a situation into the need for lethal force. So a lot of the research I've seen
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on sort of the arm bar as an approach concludes with the analysis that it can actually escalate
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violence. Because if you're not able to fully neutralize someone into a submissive state,
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that then you maintain that level of conflict, where you could get a firearm involved,
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or have some other death or injury that there would be a tragic outcome in an encounter that
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wouldn't have to reach that level. So arm bar potentially bad. But I have to say, I did read
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a very interesting piece in on a website called police one, and we'll throw it up on our social media
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platforms. LVNR lateral vascular neck restraint. So the principle here is that if the chokehold constrains the
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windpipe and the oxygen and the way that it maintains the compliance of the suspect
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is to limit their ability to breathe, and then when one doesn't breathe, they obviously become
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highly compliant to be able to get air in their lungs. But this says that if you instead constrain
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the lateral blood vessels that are on the side of the neck, so think not right in front of the windpipe,
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but sort of under the ears, moving down under the jaws, that you can limit the blood flow to the brain,
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which can get someone similarly unable to resist, but that it doesn't limit their ability to get
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oxygen into the lungs, which we all know we need to live. And I read about this in police one as an
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option, someone's breaking it down. I also read about the experience using LVNR in Kansas City.
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The Kansas City Star also has a piece again, these are like 2013-2014 that the literature is coming out,
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and it talks about how in Kansas City, this has reduced the complaints for excessive use of force.
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It has reduced the number of instances where force has resulted in corresponding litigation,
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or other medical issues. And it seems to be a pretty positive experience there.
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Now, it has not been an entirely positive experience. There has also been circumstances
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where when you don't get that blood flow to the brain, you can have an elevated risk of stroke.
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And there was actually a case where two officers were involved in training,
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and that stroke risk came to fruition. And there was actually litigation over the officer training
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on this restriction of the lateral blood vessels into the brain. So I think that we can really
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depoliticize this. I mean, we can get the best minds in the room on what types of restraints
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are effective and not creating an escalating situation where more violence would be necessary.
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But at the same time, I think that we've got to ensure that we don't allow that lethal force to
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become the next step in as many circumstances as possible. And so if there's a way to utilize
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blood vessels as opposed to airflow, if there's a way to substantially reduce, manage that stroke risk,
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we want to look at that too. But I think that this is a perfect place for Republicans and Democrats to
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come together with law enforcement and figure out, is there a smarter, better way to keep people safe,
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to keep law enforcement safe, and to keep all the tools on the table that law enforcement would need
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in terms of obtaining the compliance to not escalate police violence.
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Another issue being discussed by Democrats for potential legislation is a change in the legal
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immunity status of police officers. Now, some of this gets into some complicated matters of law,
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but I'm going to try to break it down. And you have to start by asking the question,
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well, what is the current state of play if someone feels like they're abused by a police officer and
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they want to utilize our courts to vindicate their constitutional rights? And the answer to that is
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something called a Section 1983 claim. And there you have to allege that someone has deprived you
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of a clearly established constitutional right under the color of state law. And if someone does that,
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then you have the ability to sue them in their official capacity, obtain a judgment against them,
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attain monetary relief, even obtain injunctive relief against that person, depending on the
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circumstance. And so it makes you wonder, well, why is that that system not working now? Are there
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elements of negligence or areas where we're not doing our job to keep law enforcement trained, where we
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could shore up the law and make very clear that if someone is clearly violating the well-established
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constitutional rights of someone, that they ought to be held to account in our justice system, that
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in fact, a court is a far better way to redress your grievance than throwing a cinder block through,
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you know, a Nike store and walking out with whatever goods you'd like as a form of faux political speech.
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So here we use the court as a venue. We allow a Section 1983 claim. And there's one particular
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case that I found interesting. It was Canton v. Harris. It's a Supreme Court case that lays out the
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standard to bring a lawsuit for the failure to train someone. And if we can develop some clear standards
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for training when it comes to chokeholds, when it comes to the use of lethal force, then, you know,
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there might be a mechanism by which we look at the ways someone would vindicate their rights
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to make a failure to train claim. And as I looked at the jurisprudence today, you have to prove that
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the training was the lack of training, I should say, was deliberate interference in a constitutional right
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and that there is some proximate cause between the failure to provide that training and the injury.
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For example, if someone was killed because there was not good training on how to use a weapon,
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you probably couldn't use the lack of training on a chokehold as the basis to bring that claim. So
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ensuring that there's causation between the lack of the training and the injury seems important.
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And so I think that under this current Section 1983 standard, under the jurisprudence that I
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reviewed saying that even if there's a lack of training or awareness about correct standards,
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that there's a way to bring an action, you know, I am at this moment unconvinced
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that altering the immunities that law enforcement enjoys will give us a greater probability of
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getting out the bad actors. There is the concept of a national registry of people and the incidents
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involved in the claims that are made against them regarding police abuse. And I think there's a way
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for state attorneys general to have a platform to be able to share information, to be able to find
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bad apples. Look, I stand with the police. I stand against these riots. I think that there are so much
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of the protest culture that is an over generalized indictment of our country and our law enforcement.
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I think that when there's one bad apple in a department, that doesn't indict the whole organization
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because of one bad person. I mean, heck, we have bad people in Congress. We find all the time. We
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had one guy that was writing love letters to his staff. When we when we figured that out, you know,
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he left the Congress. We did not disband the entire United States Congress because one guy did something
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wrong. I mean, I had one colleague who propositioned to have a threesome with his secretary and a lobbyist.
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And again, and then use taxpayer money to go and pay off their sexual, the sexual harassment claim
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of the staffer. We didn't dissolve the Judiciary Committee because he happened to serve on the
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Judiciary Committee. We found a way to reconcile an accountability for his precise actions. So I mean,
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when one police officer does something in one case, I don't think that that imputes to every law
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enforcement officer or every person in their department. But but I think it is important
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to ensure that we have a way to root out the bad apples. And if there's a way with
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some sharing of information and greater transparency about complaints while giving people due process,
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I think that's important. I don't think you label people without due process. I think you could actually
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build some good out of this and ensure that the good police officers that hate to see this conflict
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in our communities have the tools to to clean up their own community. And I think they need to have
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that opportunity. And I think that in a society that still very much deals with race as an element of
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how we interact with each other and how we see ourselves and how we see the circumstances that we
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find ourselves and others in, you know, having that ability to track instances to be able to utilize data
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would seemingly be a very positive contribution that my Democrat colleagues could be making and they
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could find themselves with a good deal of Republican support. The Democrats have included in their
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legislation also a prohibition against no knock warrants. So if you're wondering what a no knock
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warrant is, it's a circumstance where the government has gone before a judge and proven that if you give
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the subject of the warrant notice that the warrant is going to be executed, that that could potentially
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lead to the destruction of evidence, the moving of evidence that could lead to physical harm to other
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witnesses, it could lead to harm to law enforcement. So in some cases, a judge has to have a higher
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standard than a regular warrant, and they issue a no knock warrant. And there have been cases where these
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no knock warrants have tragic, tragic outcomes where people who would not have otherwise lost their life
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due as a consequence of that elevated attention and that that elevated anticipation regarding the entry
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of a premises without warning. But it does beg the question, if you didn't have no knock warrants,
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what would be the consequence? Would you put more law enforcement in danger? Would you put more
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witnesses in danger? I mean, these things are used in like 20,000 cases each and every year. And I'm
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concerned that if you make a fundamental change there, you really better know what you're doing.
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And I would have to see a lot more evidence. Again, we only got this piece of legislation
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yesterday, but I would have to see a lot more evidence that there would be a way to keep the
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public, others around, innocent bystanders and law enforcement safe in instances where that type of
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notice could create a far more dangerous environment for people. And if you get rid of no knock warrants,
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and if you get rid of the qualified immunity that police enjoy, I think one of the logical
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outcomes we can anticipate as a society is a pullback of police. And it's something that the
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media and researchers have written a lot about called the Ferguson effect. So I want to talk about
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the Ferguson effect. There's a great piece in USA Today in January of 2017 by Amur Madhami, and it
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talks about three fourths of law enforcement being more reluctant after these high profile
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encounters leading to protests with police and African American victims, three fourths of law
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enforcement. And this was even before the Floyd case saying that they are more reluctant to engage.
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And it cites a Pew Research study of over 8,000 law enforcement officers. And you even have people that
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that the left has gravitated to voices like Rahm Emanuel saying, gosh, you know, we've got to have
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an engaged, proactive police department. The study and the data quote, Jim Comey, who was the FBI
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director of some fame and of some very negative consequences saying that that he had seen a pullback
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in police following some of these cases. And so if you look at the Ferguson case, if you look at what
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has happened in Baltimore, Washington, other places following some of these high profile
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shootings of African Americans by law enforcement, you do see law enforcement less likely to have that
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proactive approach Rahm Emanuel talked about, less likely to really go forward and ensure that
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communities are safe from those who might be legitimately committing crimes out of fear that it could
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create a high profile encounter. And, you know, the people who are hurt most by a law enforcement
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pullback are not the folks in the whitest parts of white suburbia. It's folks in lower income
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communities. It's folks in minority communities. It's folks in urban communities that suffer greatest
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when there is a law enforcement pullback. And so I do not believe that is our destiny. I think that
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if we come together and acknowledge that there are improvements we can make to policing, just like
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there are improvements we can make to every profession, there's an acknowledgement of how
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to treat people better in policing, just like we could do so in medicine or in the practice of law
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or accounting or constituent service in the United States Congress, we can make it all better
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by getting the best science, the best data. I think that's where we can have a nonpartisan exercise.
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But if you start to see in the House Judiciary Committee and then beyond a continuation of this
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defund the police, delegitimize, dismantle, surrender mentality, if we start to take the
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view that there are some places where law enforcement should simply throw their hands up
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and allow communities to deal with whatever savage element would harm the weak or the disabled or
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the young or the old or those who are unable to defend themselves, well, I'm not for that. And I don't
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think our country should be for that. And that will be a circumstance where Republicans stand on the
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side of law abiding people who deserve to have the law enforced. And I think there are ways we can
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enforce that law better, more fairly, more effectively. And that is something that should unite all Americans.
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Thanks for listening. This has been Congressman Matt Gaetz. Be sure to leave us a five star review and a
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comment or a suggestion or even a criticism. I love your hot takes and I hope you'll be back tomorrow for mine.