The Anchormen Show with Matt Gaetz


Episode 36 LIVE： How to Beat Big Tech (feat. Rep. Ken Buck) – Firebrand with Matt Gaetz


Summary

In this episode, Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-GA) is joined by Rep. Mike Gibbons, R-Ohio, to discuss the dangers of big tech companies' censorship of conservative voices on social media and other media outlets.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 We'll be right back.
00:00:30.000 This is the movement for you.
00:00:33.200 You ever watch this guy on television?
00:00:35.360 It's like a machine.
00:00:37.020 Matt Gaetz.
00:00:38.020 I'm a canceled man in some corners of the internet.
00:00:41.120 Many days I'm a marked man in Congress, a wanted man by the deep state.
00:00:45.940 They aren't really coming for me.
00:00:47.880 They're coming for you.
00:00:49.720 I'm just in the way.
00:01:00.000 What we need to do is vote with our feet.
00:01:05.800 And that is the first thing you should do is go home and close your Facebook account and tell your friends.
00:01:12.100 Because that is how you get these people.
00:01:14.320 We are live.
00:01:17.740 Welcome.
00:01:18.280 Broadcasting from the Capitol Complex, the Longworth House Office Building.
00:01:23.180 I've got a terrific guest today that is going to break down the battle against big tech.
00:01:27.920 Not the talking points.
00:01:29.620 Not what you saw right there.
00:01:30.840 But the actual legislation that could become law.
00:01:33.720 Who we have to work with to make it happen.
00:01:35.740 And how that process has been refined over time through investigations and other critical work of the antitrust subcommittee and the House Judiciary Committee.
00:01:43.180 So who you just heard, that was the Ohio U.S. Senate Republican frontrunner, Mike Gibbons.
00:01:51.160 And I played you that clip from one of the U.S. Senate debates because I wanted to show you that some, not all, but some of the silver-haired leaders of Republicanism still believe that we can vote with our feet and detach ourselves from the digital world.
00:02:06.060 Build a competitor.
00:02:07.380 Free markets will save us.
00:02:09.440 Okay, Boomer.
00:02:10.500 Ask Parler how that went.
00:02:11.960 People went and tried to build their own and yet the powerful forces of big tech were still sufficiently stifling.
00:02:18.160 Today, major technology platforms have more power than governments themselves and they're using that power to harm conservatives.
00:02:26.380 Voting with your feet doesn't work without self-harming unilateral, political, and really economic disarmament in the information age.
00:02:36.540 And by the way, our man Mike Gibbons, who told people to go unplug their Facebook, has a Facebook page he posted an hour ago.
00:02:46.580 And so it's just, we can't look to Republican leadership that doesn't offer serious, thoughtful solutions to how people interact with the digital world.
00:02:56.100 Fortunately, the Heritage Foundation's Cara Frederick put out a report that really gets to the core of this.
00:03:02.120 It was a jarring report entitled, Combating Big Tech's Totalitarianism, A Roadmap.
00:03:07.980 So, a few highlights from this Heritage Report.
00:03:12.100 52% of Americans believe that big tech censoring the Hunter Biden laptop story was election interference.
00:03:19.940 More than half the country.
00:03:21.640 One in six Biden voters would have changed their mind had they seen the Hunter laptop story.
00:03:27.580 A lot of buyer's remorse out there in the country right now.
00:03:29.700 And more than 17 platforms muzzled President Trump, sitting as president in the weeks after January 6th.
00:03:37.560 Twitter has seen a number of suspensions harm conservatives.
00:03:41.560 So, the suspensions on Twitter actually go to a 21 to 1 ratio conservatives to liberals.
00:03:48.720 21 to 1.
00:03:50.020 Our good friend Marjorie Taylor Greene, who's going to be the guest on the show tomorrow,
00:03:53.440 was kicked off Twitter for championing weight loss as a COVID strategy.
00:03:56.720 Which, by the way, it totally should be.
00:03:59.700 Google suppressed conservative websites such as The Daily Caller, Breitbart, The Federalist during the 2020 election season.
00:04:06.880 The Federalist was even demonetized.
00:04:09.120 Breitbart saw search visibility decrease by 99% during the 2020 election compared to 2016.
00:04:16.420 Facebook censored Republican members of Congress at a ratio of 53 to 1 compared to Democrats.
00:04:24.340 In October 2021, leaked Facebook documents obtained by The Wall Street Journal
00:04:28.800 showed that they had tools developed after Trump's 2016 surprise win.
00:04:35.360 And in their documents, it shows that when those tools were removed, if they were to be removed,
00:04:40.920 Breitbart would see a 20% increase in traffic.
00:04:44.100 The Washington Times, another right-leaning publication, would see 18% more.
00:04:47.980 The Western Journal, 16% more.
00:04:50.080 The Epoch Times, 11% more.
00:04:51.780 And in fact, one of these tools, still in use today.
00:04:56.860 Now, Heritage made policy recommendations too.
00:04:59.340 Additional reporting requirements.
00:05:01.280 Data privacy, something that's very important.
00:05:03.500 Imposing costs for big tech and their ties to the Chinese Communist Party.
00:05:07.040 Prohibiting government from using social platforms to chill speech.
00:05:10.280 Don't you remember when Jen Psaki was making recommendations to social platforms
00:05:14.240 about what speech they should remove because it wasn't in line with the regime.
00:05:18.740 Scrutinizing mergers is something very important.
00:05:20.820 I'm going to be talking about that with my guest.
00:05:22.700 Resource is for enforcement of our laws.
00:05:26.280 But at the top of the list, the top of the list for Heritage,
00:05:31.400 abolish Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act as we know it.
00:05:36.420 Section 230 gives platforms immunities that they weaponize against users.
00:05:41.500 So Heritage recommends, and I'm quoting directly from the report here,
00:05:45.160 quote,
00:05:45.960 strip immunity if tech companies censor content based on political and other views protected by the Constitution.
00:05:53.260 Big tech companies should not receive liability protection against lawsuits when they act as publishers
00:05:58.720 and alter or restrict content based on political opinion, association, or viewpoint.
00:06:05.360 Well, one boomer who does see the grave threat posed by big tech monopolies is Republican Congressman Ken Buck of Colorado.
00:06:14.300 Ken is a former federal prosecutor.
00:06:16.020 He is the leading Republican on the Antitrust Subcommittee, and he joins us now.
00:06:20.220 Ken, thanks so much for being here.
00:06:22.440 Explain to folks that are watching and listening how they should think about legislation through antitrust as a tool to combat big tech.
00:06:33.620 So the key, Matt, really is to understand that for more than 100 years,
00:06:39.100 Congress has not acted or has acted in only a small way in the antitrust area.
00:06:44.580 We have left it up to the courts to make the decisions, the important decisions in this area.
00:06:48.740 And so the bills that we're talking about now, the antitrust bills, have to do with big tech and only big tech.
00:06:55.400 We're not talking about the airline industry, banks, or any other part of the economy.
00:06:59.260 But because these big tech companies control the flow of information, they impact our democracy in a very fundamental way, in a way that we have to address.
00:07:10.280 And so the bills that we're talking about increase competition.
00:07:14.000 A lot of my friends talk about it.
00:07:15.040 And so respond to sort of the Mike Givens view point that we don't really need bills.
00:07:18.880 We just need people to unplug from big tech.
00:07:22.080 I mean, you know, we are right now simulcast streaming on some of these big tech platforms that are pretty evil,
00:07:28.340 like Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter and the like.
00:07:32.800 So, I mean, what's your response to people that say the legislative endeavor is a useless one
00:07:37.380 because we can all just make our own choices on our own digital associations?
00:07:41.440 Well, I think we need to make our own choices, and I think we need to make moral choices, but that's not enough.
00:07:45.940 These companies are so big that they crush competition in ways that affect the information flow in this country.
00:07:53.060 So I don't believe that we need to go in and break them up.
00:07:56.380 I don't think government does a very good job of entering the economy and breaking up companies.
00:08:00.920 But I do think that we need to do everything we can to encourage competition.
00:08:03.380 Aren't we on a bill to break them up?
00:08:04.880 What?
00:08:05.080 Aren't you and I on a bill with Congresswoman Jayapal that quite literally does that, that breaks up your tech?
00:08:09.980 What it does is it looks at some mergers that occurred before and then unmergers.
00:08:14.560 So you could say breaking up, absolutely.
00:08:16.800 But the reality is that the chances of that bill passing and the coalition that was needed to bring the other bills forward,
00:08:26.300 that bill passed, the House Judiciary Committee.
00:08:28.740 I'm joined by Congressman Ken Buck of Colorado, leading Republican on the House Antitrust Subcommittee on the Judiciary Committee.
00:08:35.320 And we're discussing a package of legislation that we worked very hard on to get through the committee.
00:08:41.160 And now, as typically occurs as bills move from subcommittee to full committee and then to the floor,
00:08:46.820 there is a narrowing of focus and really a great deal of attention to what we can get done, what we can get put into law.
00:08:53.460 I'm going to get to that and this legislation that you are really, really putting the fine points on regarding non-discrimination of products with platforms.
00:09:03.240 But first, I want to get your perspective on Section 230, because when conservatives are discussing potential legislative reforms,
00:09:11.660 you often hear folks in the House and Senate really zero in on Section 230 of the Communication Decency Act.
00:09:18.400 As I described, it gives these big tech platforms liability that I think they often use to suppress viewpoint and to try to shape the very nature of truth itself.
00:09:29.940 What's your perspective on Section 230?
00:09:31.780 I think that what Heritage said in their white paper is absolutely right.
00:09:36.360 There are three prongs of attack to deal with this issue.
00:09:40.100 One is the antitrust laws.
00:09:41.740 The second is Section 230.
00:09:43.560 And the third is a privacy area.
00:09:44.940 We don't get the job done unless we work on all three areas.
00:09:48.940 So you believe that reforms to Section 230 are necessary but perhaps not sufficient to get to a digital world that is more reflective of our constitutional values?
00:10:00.800 Absolutely right.
00:10:01.800 And the political reality that we're dealing with, Matt, is that we have a president, a Democrat president in the White House,
00:10:08.620 who will not sign a bill that harms the kind of censorship that the Democrats have appreciated in the last few years.
00:10:19.020 So we've got to move forward on the antitrust laws right now because we do have a bipartisan agreement on that.
00:10:24.020 But it's not just a Democrat that's in the White House.
00:10:25.940 It's often Republicans in Congress who seem to be the champions of Section 230.
00:10:31.040 I want to play a clip for you.
00:10:32.740 This is Congresswoman Kathy McMorris-Rogers.
00:10:35.260 She is the leading Republican on the Energy and Commerce Committee.
00:10:38.160 This is her perspective on Section 230.
00:10:41.500 I want to be very clear.
00:10:43.740 I'm not for gutting Section 230.
00:10:46.200 It's essential for consumers and entities in the Internet ecosystem.
00:10:50.960 Misguided and hasty attempts to amend or even repeal Section 230 for bias or other reasons could have unintended consequences for free speech
00:11:01.140 and the ability for small businesses to provide new and innovative services.
00:11:05.260 So, you know, that is a position that I don't hold.
00:11:11.800 I think that strong reforms are necessary.
00:11:15.060 I think that you correctly in your antitrust work have segregated out how we treat these large platforms versus how we treat some of these smaller companies.
00:11:24.440 What's your confidence that a Republican majority, which many people expect, you know, following the upcoming election, would actually continue the work, the bipartisan work that you and Chairman Cicilline have done on this antitrust legislation?
00:11:42.340 Well, I think that some of these bills will move forward this Congress.
00:11:48.260 I think that some of the ideas from these bills will move forward in future Congresses.
00:11:53.680 And I hope that Republicans embrace antitrust.
00:11:57.080 It is a Republican concept.
00:11:58.720 It began, you know, back in the Gilded Age with leaders like Teddy Roosevelt and others who recognized the dangers of the vast accumulations of wealth and power that go along with these monopolies.
00:12:13.840 He's a Teddy Roosevelt Republican, and I'm proud to have him here broadcasting live from our congressional office, Congressman Ken Buck of Colorado.
00:12:22.220 But I do have concerns that Republicans talk tough on big tech, but then often end up voting with big tech.
00:12:29.700 I think one reason why is that they're addicted to the money that big tech donates to them.
00:12:34.780 You've taken a bold stance.
00:12:36.020 What's your perspective on taking funds from big tech?
00:12:39.520 Well, I started a pledge that my good friend Matt Gates has joined me with and others that we agree not to take money from big tech.
00:12:50.220 Why is that important?
00:12:51.000 Well, it's important in large part because of perception.
00:12:55.000 I don't think that a $2,000 donation changes anybody's vote in this place.
00:13:00.080 I do think that the public believes that we are bought and sold every day.
00:13:04.100 And so it's important that we show the public we're not taking money that influences our votes.
00:13:09.400 And we're also saying to these companies, stay home.
00:13:13.540 Let us figure this out.
00:13:14.800 Get out of our face every day on these difficult issues.
00:13:18.500 The campaign finance system as a matter of policy is one vector where I think people get compromised by big tech.
00:13:25.980 But I think it is a far more sweeping endeavor with the intense lobbying, with big tech hiring family members of lawmakers.
00:13:35.240 I mean, how are we supposed to go negotiate with Chuck Schumer on an issue that could harm Facebook when his daughter works at Facebook?
00:13:41.140 I mean, you know, and so I'm concerned about that.
00:13:43.820 I'm also concerned that, you know, like we've got to get the right people who are willing to be super aggressive,
00:13:49.280 not only on the antitrust matters that we're going to discuss, but also on Section 230.
00:13:54.600 And one thing that concerns me is that, like, Kevin McCarthy has built out a free speech, anti-big tech task force.
00:14:03.240 And one of the people leading the task force, I think we've got the press release that we're going to go to, is Kathy McMorris-Rogers.
00:14:09.260 Now, Jim Jordan's there, too.
00:14:10.440 We know he's a great warrior for free speech.
00:14:12.840 But I worry that some of the people who haven't taken our pledge, who certainly don't hold my views,
00:14:18.940 are being elevated within the Republican conference on this, and it could result in them stifling our work, potentially, in a majority.
00:14:27.320 But you are not waiting to get to the majority.
00:14:30.460 You are working right now on very serious legislation that deals with how big tech platforms can discriminate or not discriminate against products.
00:14:40.500 Can you give viewers an update on the status of that legislation and why it's needed?
00:14:44.720 Well, Matt, I just want to back up one second.
00:14:47.460 I tried to get on that committee.
00:14:49.740 Well, you tried to get on the anti-big tech task force, and you're not on.
00:14:54.380 And Kathy McMorris-Rogers, who's carrying big tech's water, who is embracing Section 230, is one of the leaders?
00:14:59.760 Well, it's interesting, because as the person who was really bringing these antitrust bills forward,
00:15:07.240 I wanted our voice, all of our voices who are in favor of this one remedy, one part of the remedy.
00:15:13.840 And it's not an antitrust, and it's not an anti-big tech task force.
00:15:16.780 It's a big tech task force.
00:15:18.680 It should be an anti-big tech task force.
00:15:20.380 Well, you know, Heritage essentially concludes that these people are the death star,
00:15:23.660 and we have to shoot everything we have at them from antitrust, from, you know, behaviors, from enforcement.
00:15:31.580 And I think you've laid out a strategy that is multi-vector as well.
00:15:35.900 It is.
00:15:36.800 But all I'm saying is I approach this with an open mind.
00:15:39.920 They just convince me every single time that they're bad.
00:15:42.940 So I'm not looking at this as an anti-big tech task force,
00:15:46.180 but it's so ironic that those of us that have a passion for this area were held off of this task force.
00:15:52.620 Well, once I saw that Kathy McMorris-Rogers was the leader,
00:15:57.500 I knew for certain at that point it wasn't going to be an anti-big tech task force.
00:16:01.480 I mean, frankly, if you take money from big tech, you shouldn't be on the big tech task force.
00:16:06.500 You've got a conflict.
00:16:07.680 Absolutely.
00:16:08.460 So to go to your other point.
00:16:09.460 Yeah, let's go to the legislative.
00:16:11.220 So that is kind of the free speech vector.
00:16:13.780 Let's go to the bipartisan legislative vector that you are very hard at work on every day.
00:16:19.160 So just take one simple bill, for example.
00:16:21.540 The state attorney generals came to me and said,
00:16:25.460 we want to be able to sue these big companies and stay in our own state.
00:16:30.200 Because every time they sue, the case miraculously gets moved to the Northern District of California,
00:16:35.600 the backyard of Google and these other companies.
00:16:38.400 And so we started this bill.
00:16:41.140 It passed out of a judiciary committee.
00:16:43.580 I've gone to multiple meetings of Republicans that asked people to sign a discharge petition.
00:16:48.420 I have 107 signatures out of 212 Republicans in the United States House.
00:16:54.280 How can, when 48 attorney generals in the United States come forward, by the way, California is missing for some reason.
00:17:00.260 I don't know why.
00:17:01.180 But when 48 attorney generals come forward and say, we need this legislation, and it is a federalist states' rights bill,
00:17:09.060 why aren't more Republicans signing up to say, I'll vote for this if it comes to the floor?
00:17:14.060 Why? Answer your question.
00:17:15.120 Do you think it's the lobbying?
00:17:16.200 Do you think it's the political donations?
00:17:17.840 Do you think it's a sense of futility for a discharge petition under Nancy Pelosi?
00:17:22.840 You know what I think, Matt, that you and I and your other guests on this show are not risk-averse.
00:17:28.380 I think many people in this chamber are risk-averse.
00:17:31.940 They don't want to do things.
00:17:32.660 So there wasn't.
00:17:33.080 They won't sign what 48 attorney generals want to be able to not even create new laws,
00:17:40.460 but to be able to bring big tech to heel when they violate state law and engage in other deceptive or potentially unfair trade practices.
00:17:49.340 And you've got a whole lot of Republicans who you think just aren't up for this fight.
00:17:54.520 Should that discourage voters that if they returned Republicans to the majority that Republicans would actually fight on big tech?
00:18:01.340 I think they should absolutely be discouraged.
00:18:03.400 And I think one of the things that voters should ask their candidates is—
00:18:05.980 The discouragement hour with Matt Gaetz and Ken Buck.
00:18:08.240 But go ahead.
00:18:09.000 I think you've labeled me that in the past, actually.
00:18:11.380 I think that one of the things that voters should be asking their candidates, have you taken money from big tech?
00:18:19.180 It should be not necessarily the dispositive factor in making a decision, but it is a factor in making a decision.
00:18:25.360 Where are you on big tech?
00:18:26.740 Have you taken money from that?
00:18:28.120 Well, the good news is from that Ohio Senate debate, these questions are being asked.
00:18:31.960 Now, we're not getting all the right answers yet from all the right candidates, but the questions are being asked.
00:18:37.560 I want to get to this legislation about how platforms treat products in the nondiscrimination issue,
00:18:43.260 because a lot of people might think, oh, well, when I pull up Amazon and am searching to select something,
00:18:49.340 you know, that is just based on my preferences.
00:18:51.440 But sometimes it's based on Amazon's preferences and their desire to vertically integrate.
00:18:57.540 Explain where that legislation is and the work you're doing on it.
00:19:00.980 So understand that Amazon is a platform, but they also produce their own products.
00:19:06.580 And what they do is that from their platform, they look at sales trends and they see products that are selling real well.
00:19:14.340 Then they go to a manufacturer and produce a similar product and compete against the product that they originally were promoting on their platform.
00:19:24.440 And when they do that, lo and behold, Amazon takes that competitive third-party product and drops it to page three,
00:19:32.080 and they put their product on page one.
00:19:33.880 We discovered this during the investigation that was really led by you and by Chairman Cicilline with Amazon and a diaper company.
00:19:43.100 I think we've got that clip for viewers.
00:19:46.580 In 2009, your team viewed diapers.com as Amazon's largest and fastest-growing online competitor for diapers.
00:19:55.340 One of Amazon's top executives said that diapers.com keeps the pressure on pricing on us
00:20:01.480 and strong competition from diapers.com meant that Amazon worked harder and harder so that customers didn't pick diapers.com over Amazon.
00:20:09.700 And the customers we're talking about were hardworking families, single parents with babies, and young children.
00:20:15.840 Now, because diapers.com was so successful, Amazon saw it as a threat.
00:20:21.440 The documents that we've obtained show that Amazon employees began strategizing about ways to weaken this company.
00:20:27.760 And in 2010, Amazon hatched a plot to go after diapers.com and take it out.
00:20:34.620 In an email that I reviewed, and we've got these up on the slides,
00:20:38.180 one of your top executives proposed to you a, quote, aggressive plan to win, end quote, against diapers.com,
00:20:44.640 a plan that sought to undercut their business by temporarily slashing Amazon prices.
00:20:49.780 We saw one of your profit and loss statements, and it appears that in one month alone,
00:20:56.280 Amazon was willing to bleed over $200 million in diaper profit losses.
00:21:03.360 Mr. Bezos, how much money was Amazon ultimately willing to lose on this campaign to undermine diapers.com?
00:21:12.360 Thank you for the question.
00:21:13.520 And I don't know the direct answer to your question.
00:21:16.400 This is going back in time, I think, maybe 10 or 11 years or so.
00:21:20.500 You could give me maybe the dates from those documents.
00:21:23.100 But what I can tell you is that the idea of using diapers and products like that to attract new customers who have new families is a very traditional idea.
00:21:35.020 Sure, but let's delve into this a little further.
00:21:37.520 I'm sorry, you know I only have a few minutes here, so I just want to press on.
00:21:43.040 Your own documents make clear that the price war against diapers.com worked,
00:21:47.080 and within a few months it was struggling, and so then Amazon bought it.
00:21:51.740 After buying your leading competitor here, Amazon cut promotions like Amazon.mom
00:21:57.340 and the steep discounts it used to lure customers away from diapers.com
00:22:02.440 and then increase the prices of diapers for new moms and dads.
00:22:06.820 Mr. Bezos, did you personally sign off on the plan to raise prices after Amazon limited its competition?
00:22:14.920 I don't remember that at all.
00:22:17.740 Thank you.
00:22:17.860 What I remember is that we matched competitive prices, and I believe we followed diapers.com.
00:22:23.460 Again, this is 11 years ago, so you're asking a lot of my memory.
00:22:27.340 That was Democrat Congresswoman Mary Kay Scanlon in the House Judiciary Committee with Jeff Bezos under oath.
00:22:34.420 Ken, does she have it right, and if so, how does your legislation get at this problem and solve it?
00:22:40.600 She has it right, and it's even a more interesting part of the story that's really important to understand.
00:22:47.300 Diapers.com, because they had this database of new parents,
00:22:51.880 they were getting into the market of selling baby shampoo and all these other products,
00:22:55.780 and that's what threatened Amazon.
00:22:57.100 So what Amazon did was to take them out with predatory pricing.
00:23:01.180 This bill prohibits that kind of predatory pricing and prohibits the self-preferencing that went on with diapers.com.
00:23:08.500 We're talking diapers live with Congressman Ken Buck of Colorado,
00:23:12.080 the leading Republican on the House Antitrust Subcommittee.
00:23:15.640 What is the time frame on being able to get legislation like what you just described,
00:23:21.340 really before the full House for a vote?
00:23:23.580 What's beautiful about these bills, Matt, is that they are not only bipartisan, they are bicameral.
00:23:29.620 And so the Senate is moving in a parallel path with the House.
00:23:33.820 The Senate has passed the non-discrimination bill also, the Senate Judiciary Committee.
00:23:38.460 It is now before the full Senate.
00:23:40.960 We're still finishing the language so that we don't have to go to conference and continue this process.
00:23:45.960 But I think we are very close to the language that we need to move forward.
00:23:50.440 Weeks, months?
00:23:51.620 No, weeks.
00:23:52.260 So in a matter of weeks, you think...
00:23:54.100 Before the August recess, this bill will pass.
00:23:56.800 The House of Representatives.
00:23:57.960 And the Senate.
00:23:58.660 And be signed by the President.
00:24:00.180 Bold prediction.
00:24:01.280 You heard it here.
00:24:01.940 From the bold congressman from Colorado.
00:24:03.820 Before the August recess, we could see a major change in how all Americans interact with the digital world.
00:24:09.360 And frankly, these platforms should not be able to do what you just saw described there in the diapers matter
00:24:14.960 and harm small businesses, harm companies that went and acquired customers and built themselves up.
00:24:20.360 But because you've got to sell on Amazon, they go and just strip that data from you and put you out of business.
00:24:26.100 It's fundamentally unfair.
00:24:28.260 It is damaging to a variety of sectors throughout our economy.
00:24:31.780 We need to fix it.
00:24:33.660 Some Republicans aren't going to vote with us.
00:24:36.620 And they're going to say, Matt, Ken, you shouldn't be working with the Democrats on this.
00:24:41.480 Maybe when we take power and have leverage and can really dictate terms, we should do it.
00:24:45.620 But, you know, you guys have been romanced by the Democrats on this thing.
00:24:49.940 And you shouldn't be working alongside Elizabeth Warren and David Cicilline and Jerry Nadler, even if your goals are virtuous.
00:24:58.260 What's your response to that?
00:24:59.360 Well, they're the same Republicans who are taking money from big tech, number one.
00:25:02.900 And number two, when you look around the world.
00:25:05.360 Don't criticize our collegial work alongside Democrats if you're taking money from big tech.
00:25:12.220 The message from Ken Buck.
00:25:13.400 You know, India is suing Amazon over this issue.
00:25:17.560 South Korea, Japan, Europe.
00:25:19.540 It is an issue that is worldwide.
00:25:21.640 And it's an issue that they're looking for the United States to take leadership on.
00:25:25.720 And I think that our colleagues just have to understand something.
00:25:29.980 We don't trust that they're going to do something in the next Congress.
00:25:33.780 And we need to get it done now.
00:25:35.680 And you have recruited a number of the leading Republican thinkers in the Senate to join us as well.
00:25:41.060 Talk about that.
00:25:41.980 Senator Cruz is on board.
00:25:43.600 And other senators from the Judiciary Committee have signed on to this legislation.
00:25:47.980 It is not liberal legislation.
00:25:49.620 This is good, pro-business, really pro-innovator legislation.
00:25:55.080 And a lot of those innovations we're seeing really destroyed by those practices that we see used from Amazon, from Facebook, and the like.
00:26:04.620 I don't think you should vote against good legislation just because there are also Democrats supporting it.
00:26:11.660 And frankly, I don't even know what the partisan vectors would be on on this.
00:26:15.920 You know, this is about fairness in the economy.
00:26:18.280 And frankly, it's encouraging to be working with folks so that the economy actually functions for people who want to play by the rules.
00:26:26.240 So I'll be with Ken.
00:26:27.820 We'll take some criticism from the right.
00:26:29.680 We'll take some criticism from the left.
00:26:31.660 But I think we're building an enduring coalition here that could actually survive this Congress.
00:26:37.160 We should get done what we can get done now.
00:26:39.220 We should look ahead to even stronger bills.
00:26:41.820 But maybe there can be some positive connective tissue that, you know, that merges among the populist right and the populist left that we could see make this place a better place.
00:26:53.000 You ask about the political vector.
00:26:54.580 It just so happens that a whole lot of these people are from the left coast that are opposing this legislation.
00:26:59.800 And that's the reality.
00:27:00.480 We are not going to win this day to California, probably, on the vote.
00:27:04.220 But he's predicted the law will change before the August recess.
00:27:07.960 Another thing that needs to change is just Congress generally.
00:27:10.500 We made a movie about this.
00:27:13.120 Cameras followed Ken Buck and I during all of calendar year 2019.
00:27:17.520 HBO made a movie called The Swamp.
00:27:19.700 Take a quick look.
00:27:22.440 Where has McConnell traditionally been on these war powers issues?
00:27:25.740 I think the best guess of where he's going to be on this issue is where the president wants him to be on this issue.
00:27:32.540 And the president sees this as an important part of his rebuilding the military.
00:27:36.820 And he's not going to send the signal to Mitch McConnell to work with us on this.
00:27:42.420 Huh.
00:27:44.180 Oh, what a profile shot.
00:27:45.860 It got the whole jawline.
00:27:47.620 I mean, you got to have the ace cinematographers for that.
00:27:50.600 So the book that you wrote was Drain the Swamp.
00:27:54.000 From that, we were able to make this great movie called The Swamp on HBO.
00:27:57.860 But why did you write the book?
00:27:59.360 And what is your principal critique of Congress?
00:28:01.960 Well, I'll tell you why I wrote the book.
00:28:03.180 I was so disappointed in my freshman term in Congress.
00:28:06.040 I came here believing that I could make a difference in this country for the better.
00:28:10.420 We are spending too much money.
00:28:12.020 We're regulating our economy in ways that are really detrimental.
00:28:15.220 I wrote the book, and people said, no, that can't be true.
00:28:19.600 We have to pay money to be on a committee.
00:28:22.900 Nobody believes that you have to pay money to be on a committee.
00:28:25.380 You have to pay more than a million dollars to be a chair.
00:28:27.420 I had to pay $75,000 to get on the Armed Services Committee.
00:28:30.220 It's absolutely corrupt.
00:28:33.200 Because how do most people make their money?
00:28:35.680 They hold receptions.
00:28:37.520 Lobbyists come to the receptions.
00:28:39.140 The lobbyists expect something in return.
00:28:41.220 It's a game that's played.
00:28:42.400 And you just become the money launderer between the special interests and the leadership.
00:28:47.320 That's what I really resented.
00:28:49.040 You know, when I showed up and I thought, so wait a second.
00:28:50.740 I'm going to owe, like, they told me during the course of my freshman term,
00:28:53.900 I owed them $400,000 over that two-year period.
00:28:56.800 I think to myself, well, where do they expect that I'm going to get it?
00:28:59.040 And then, you know, the committee chairman of the Judiciary Committee at the time
00:29:01.580 sits me down and says, well, you've got to find this special interest
00:29:04.780 and play them against that special interest.
00:29:07.080 And then their common ground can be your bank account.
00:29:09.760 And it just struck me as so icky.
00:29:12.800 So you write the book.
00:29:14.880 Do you think that the sort of sleaziness of the exchange of favors for money on legislation,
00:29:24.420 on taking positions on things here, is getting worse or better since you published?
00:29:28.960 Well, I don't think the book helped.
00:29:31.080 It hurt me.
00:29:32.200 I don't think it helped the system.
00:29:33.640 I think it continues to get worse.
00:29:35.480 Every year I look at it, we are, and you just look at the numbers that the NRCC and the DCCC are raising,
00:29:44.380 and that number keeps going up, and that number is coming from somewhere,
00:29:47.840 and it's from the members having to go out and raise that money.
00:29:50.460 It's been an inordinate amount of time raising money as opposed to developing good policy.
00:29:54.920 Well, let me push back on that a little.
00:29:56.340 I think that there are some elements getting better.
00:30:00.120 You would have never heard of any group rejecting money from almost anyone five, six, ten years ago in this place.
00:30:08.420 Everybody took money from everybody.
00:30:10.280 And you not only have refused money from big tech, but folks like Congressman Stubbe and others have joined in that effort.
00:30:18.280 I take no donations from any lobbyists or any political action committees.
00:30:23.040 Marjorie Taylor Greene does not take any donations from corporate PACs.
00:30:27.540 I don't believe Lauren Boebert takes donations from corporate PACs.
00:30:30.300 And you wonder, like, well, how have we been able to do that?
00:30:33.200 And the answer is by democratizing sort of the policy of political finance across more people.
00:30:41.040 I think the small-dollar donor has never meant more than they do today because if you get enough of them,
00:30:47.140 you don't have to go beg lobbyists for money.
00:30:49.360 And so, you know, again, this isn't a campaign show, but it does speak to the types of policies in the Congress
00:30:55.160 that get attention and get a focus and get placed on committee agendas based on who's given money where.
00:31:01.980 And, I mean, you've been very transparent about that.
00:31:04.420 We made the movie about it.
00:31:05.740 And when you say you don't think it helped you, what did you mean by that?
00:31:09.200 Well, I don't think leadership appreciated me pulling back the curtain and showing America exactly what goes on here.
00:31:14.100 But I think the point that you make is absolutely right.
00:31:16.280 Send the right people to Congress.
00:31:17.700 It isn't a matter of what the system is now.
00:31:20.700 It's a matter of what the system could become when the right people show up and work hard.
00:31:25.580 Colorado sent a good one.
00:31:26.740 Ken Buck.
00:31:27.600 Ken, before I let you go, folks continue to be just horrified by these images of mass murder and atrocity in Ukraine.
00:31:36.700 What's your perspective on how that conflict is going and what we've learned from it?
00:31:40.400 Well, one thing we've learned is that the Ukrainian people love their country and are willing to die for it.
00:31:45.100 Their military is putting up a tremendous fight against far superior military force.
00:31:52.420 The other thing we've learned is that the corruption that's inherent in a communist system is playing out in the military.
00:31:58.800 And I also think that our policies have been detrimental.
00:32:02.660 We need to stop buying oil, gas from Russia.
00:32:06.620 We need to make sure that we isolate Russia.
00:32:08.620 We need to make sure that Europe understands that they need to ante up their portion.
00:32:14.340 You guys have got some more oil and gas we can go find in Colorado, right?
00:32:17.260 We have.
00:32:17.500 Because I don't want to trade blood-stained Russian oil for blood-stained Iranian oil or blood-stained Venezuelan oil.
00:32:23.740 Absolutely.
00:32:24.360 And that's one of the disgraces that's occurred with our energy policy here.
00:32:27.920 Matt, when our former governor left office, the state government was granting 30 oil and gas permits a month.
00:32:37.120 The new governor takes over in his first year, five total.
00:32:41.500 And now they're wondering why we have a gas shortage.
00:32:43.920 It's clear.
00:32:44.940 They have been attacking fossil fuels for decades in this country.
00:32:48.900 And now the chickens have come home to roost.
00:32:50.700 And it does sound like Colorado is ready to make its patriotic contribution to America's energy needs, if given the opportunity.
00:32:57.520 Ken, how can folks find you on social media?
00:33:00.880 How can folks stay in contact with you, sign up for your newsletter,
00:33:03.980 so that we're able to stay real informed on this important antitrust big tech legislation?
00:33:09.160 I appreciate that.
00:33:10.120 They could go to buck.house.gov.
00:33:12.220 We send out an email whenever I have a big vote in the House,
00:33:16.620 but especially when we're dealing with these antitrust bills.
00:33:19.600 Buck.house.gov, my good friend from Colorado, leading Republican on the House Antitrust Subcommittee.
00:33:26.320 Thanks so much for joining us.
00:33:27.700 We'll be back tomorrow about the same time with the great Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene.