Episode 86 LIVE： Crushed (feat. Rep. Ken Buck) – Firebrand with Matt Gaetz
Summary
In this episode of Firebrand, Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-GA) takes aim at Big Tech and its use of artificial intelligence and big data to spy on us, and how we can fight back. In addition, the House Judiciary Committee votes down an amendment that would allow members of Congress to lead their committee in the Pledge of Allegiance.
Transcript
00:00:30.000
This is the right place. This is the movement for you.
00:00:33.120
You ever watch this guy on television? It's like a machine. Matt Gaetz.
00:00:37.960
I'm a canceled man in some corners of the internet. Many days I'm a marked man in Congress, a wanted man by the deep state.
00:00:45.860
They aren't really coming for me. They're coming for you. I'm just in the way.
00:00:50.920
Welcome back to Firebrand. We are broadcasting live out of room 2021 of the Rayburn House Office Building on the Capitol Complex here in our nation's capital, Washington, D.C.
00:01:05.100
And this episode gives us a deep dive into big tech, what the problems are, what the various things we can do to fight back might be.
00:01:14.580
Ken Buck wrote a great book about it. It's called Crushed. Terrific, terrific policy prescriptions there.
00:01:21.580
Great diagnosis. We're going to get to that in a moment.
00:01:24.100
But Jameson on Rumble, he says that debate on the pledge was hilarious.
00:01:30.420
So we had drama in the House Judiciary Committee today over, of all things, the Pledge of Allegiance.
00:01:38.380
I don't think you could say the Pledge of Allegiance too much.
00:01:40.480
So here's how the story begins. Two years ago, when the Democrats were in control, I thought it might be a nice, unifying thing to put into our Judiciary Committee rules a Pledge of Allegiance at the beginning of every committee meeting.
00:01:56.760
And two years ago, when the Democrats were in charge, this is how that went. Take a listen.
00:02:02.920
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I want to extend a welcome to the new committee members.
00:02:07.600
I'm grateful to be back on this august committee, and I understand and appreciate the significance and importance of the work that we do.
00:02:16.460
And I just think it would be nice if, in the spirit of national unity and national pride, which I know we all aspire to do to a greater extent,
00:02:24.520
that at the beginning of each meeting, the chair or one of the designees of the chair would have the opportunity to lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance.
00:02:31.080
We're all aware that in these times, it's important for the country to see members of Congress working together on some things.
00:02:39.240
And while I know that we can deal with divisive issues in the committee, it would be my hope that we could start every committee with a great, unifying, patriotic moment.
00:02:51.460
I recognize myself to speak in opposition to the amendment.
00:02:54.340
The House begins every day with the Pledge of Allegiance.
00:03:05.060
There's no necessity to say the Pledge of Allegiance twice during the same day.
00:03:16.200
I can't believe Nancy Pelosi made us wear those things.
00:03:18.500
Brian on Facebook thinks that I should not even be able to own a flag or say the Pledge of Allegiance.
00:03:29.900
So that brings us to the Republicans regaining control of the Judiciary Committee.
00:03:33.840
And so I figure, well, the Democrats, they voted down the Pledge of Allegiance two years ago.
00:03:41.480
And so I thought, well, we're in the majority now.
00:03:47.220
This is from today in the House Judiciary Committee.
00:03:50.180
For those of you who are listening to the podcast, you're going to hear me.
00:03:54.620
And then the terrific voice of Wes Hunt, freshman from Texas.
00:04:03.440
Here on the August Judiciary Committee, we are charged with vindicating the constitutional rights of our fellow Americans.
00:04:10.100
And our Pledge of Allegiance is a national symbol of pride and unity.
00:04:15.540
And it was a great honor to be able to invite one of my constituents this morning to offer the Pledge of Allegiance.
00:04:21.000
And so my amendment gives the committee the opportunity to begin each of its meetings with the Pledge of Allegiance.
00:04:28.240
It gives our members the ability to invite inspirational constituents to be able to share and lead in the Pledge of Allegiance.
00:04:34.360
I offered this amendment to the judiciary rules two years ago, and it was defeated.
00:04:39.000
And I'm very optimistic that we'll have a different outcome today.
00:04:49.580
I would oppose it simply on the grounds that, as members know, we pledge allegiance every day on the floor.
00:04:56.920
And I don't know why we should pledge allegiance twice in the same day to show how patriotic we are.
00:05:03.420
As I said, we pledge allegiance on the floor every day.
00:05:06.000
I don't think this is the most important amendment in the world.
00:05:08.160
But since we do pledge allegiance every day on the floor, I think it's unnecessary.
00:05:16.140
We should be saying the Pledge every single day, every single morning, and every single committee.
00:05:23.020
Because when I was in elementary school, that's what I did.
00:05:26.520
And I worked my butt off to be sitting here right now in this room.
00:05:29.780
And the least we can do is to pay homage to the sacrifice of those that have come before us to say,
00:05:35.720
you know what, Democrat or Republican, we are in this together.
00:05:43.140
Let's just take 30 seconds to put all of our differences aside and say we can agree that this country is wonderful,
00:05:50.140
this country has done outstanding things, and that brave men and women were willing to die for it.
00:05:54.360
And that's what sets us apart from every other country in the entire world.
00:05:57.620
Every generation stands up to die and fight for that flag.
00:06:01.200
The least we can do is send a Pledge of Allegiance.
00:06:06.540
That was Congressman Wes Hunt, new member of Congress, but a rising star already.
00:06:12.560
And I think it's quite something that Jerry Nadler spoke against my amendment today.
00:06:20.420
And then subsequently, Jerry Nadler and every single other Democrat on the committee ended up voting with us
00:06:27.640
because they were properly shamed into doing the right and patriotic thing.
00:06:33.000
And speaking of right and patriotic, it was such an honor today to invite,
00:06:38.000
to give the first Pledge of Allegiance in the House Judiciary Committee for the 118th Congress,
00:06:43.220
one of Northwest Florida's own, Staff Sergeant Beekman, joined me.
00:06:51.040
Take a little, listen, and watch on this video of our experience.
00:07:01.060
It is my pleasure and distinct honor to introduce to the committee Staff Sergeant Corey Ryan Beekman,
00:07:07.980
an American hero and a constituent of mine residing in Pensacola, Florida,
00:07:12.140
and I request that he be permitted to lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance.
00:07:16.600
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
00:07:23.960
one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
00:07:35.720
Patriotism to me is men and women that have decided to write a check to the American people,
00:07:50.660
We don't get along left and right side of the aisle,
00:07:56.960
and get back to the core beliefs of what we were
00:08:01.480
and not so divisive, but think of what as a whole.
00:08:06.220
We're going to disagree, but we need to find the middle ground as Americans.
00:08:16.260
and we are always, always honored to be able to highlight the distinct and elite patriotism,
00:08:33.260
But if we want to protect the true values that undergird our Constitution for free speech,
00:08:40.640
Now, one of the people who is at the forefront of that fight
00:08:46.740
He stopped by Firebrand just moments ago for a discussion.
00:08:52.740
Mr. Speaker, I rise to discuss the threats facing conservative speech
00:08:58.540
When members of government take it upon themselves
00:09:01.320
to declare certain speech illegal or undesirable,
00:09:10.040
We've seen this kind of censorship in Saudi Arabia,
00:09:17.760
Tonight, we're gathered to call attention to a shocking coordinated attempt
00:09:24.480
to suppress dissent, stifle debate, and threaten free speech.
00:09:30.720
You just heard from one of the greatest advocates for free speech in our country,
00:09:37.900
certainly the best in the House of Representatives.
00:09:40.120
My colleague from California, my colleague from Colorado,
00:09:46.140
And last evening, that was Representative Buck leading an hour of debate
00:09:50.280
on a critical issue regarding telecommunications companies
00:09:53.520
and what they're doing to limit access to programming based on viewpoint.
00:10:05.380
It's got a terrific forward from Senator Ted Cruz.
00:10:08.620
Great endorsements from Governor Mike Huckabee and David Horowitz as well.
00:10:12.860
Ken, I'm going to get into the book in a moment,
00:10:15.040
but can we start with the hour of debate you led last night?
00:10:29.960
and it is clearly an attempt by the left to silence the right.
00:10:34.840
We had two sitting members of the United States Congress,
00:10:40.940
who demanded that three networks, Newsmax, One America News, and Fox News,
00:10:47.980
be taken off the air because of their radical positions.
00:10:51.300
When we, as members of Congress, start to silence the other side,
00:10:57.380
I'm not opposed to any viewpoints on the other side.
00:11:00.620
I think the more they talk, the dumber they look, and the more we gain.
00:11:04.800
But to try to silence the other side is just wrong.
00:11:08.600
Well, and it's very important that you understand that fact pattern.
00:11:11.120
You had Democrat members of Congress who don't like the views that they see on Newsmax,
00:11:17.060
One America News, probably Real America's Voice,
00:11:21.240
And so they sent a threat, an explicit threat, to AT&T, DirecTV,
00:11:31.460
It worked as to OAN, and now we see that very same negative action directed toward Newsmax.
00:11:37.120
And do you think that's part of a broader play that you talk about in your book, Crushed?
00:11:43.200
But, Matt, one of the important things is, and I failed to mention it earlier,
00:11:46.200
is that Energy and Commerce has oversight over the Federal Communications Commission,
00:11:53.200
And so, really, they're putting pressure on companies to take off conservative speech
00:11:59.780
or the Biden administration will act in concert and make sure they're punished.
00:12:04.800
And do you think these companies really feel that pressure is a negative thing,
00:12:08.660
or is it more that the members of Congress basically gaslight a permission structure
00:12:13.720
for these woke corporations to do what they want to do anyway,
00:12:18.500
and that is to limit a conservative viewpoint from being proliferated?
00:12:22.020
Well, you and I will never know because we don't go to Davos.
00:12:25.200
But the folks that go to Davos, that rub elbows, that make these kinds of decisions,
00:12:31.420
I don't know who initiates the conversation, but the result is the same.
00:12:36.280
Undeniably, this is part of a broader construct that all Americans need to be aware of.
00:12:42.660
but here were my thoughts on the cancellations that we saw with AT&T and DirecTV.
00:12:47.400
I remember when I was in school, it was always the liberals, the classical liberals,
00:12:57.580
and it was a few conservatives who didn't want you to see certain things
00:13:01.920
or look at certain things or read certain things.
00:13:04.900
And now it's like totally flipped the script because they have such a low view of our fellow Americans.
00:13:13.380
The Energy and Commerce Committee should be holding hearings on this.
00:13:16.720
The Department of Justice antitrust entities should be looking into whether or not
00:13:21.640
this is too much of a concentration of power in entities like AT&T and DirecTV
00:13:30.160
and even Google's terrible work to try to demonetize the Federalist.
00:13:35.760
And I also believe that in the House Judiciary Committee,
00:13:40.120
and encourage the Department of Justice to take action.
00:13:43.380
Congressman Ken Buck is my colleague on the House Judiciary Committee,
00:13:47.940
and we've worked very closely to try to stop this cartel of big tech.
00:13:54.680
It's got Google, Facebook, Twitter, Amazon, and Apple on the cover.
00:13:58.800
Ken, which is the most dangerous in your research?
00:14:04.620
They control over 90% of the buy side, 90% of the sell side,
00:14:08.260
and they bought DoubleClick, which is the auction house.
00:14:18.980
And you and I are supposed to go to Vegas and place a wager on who's going to win.
00:14:23.400
It's absolutely absurd to think that one company can have that type of power in digital advertising
00:14:29.400
if Congress did the right thing and adopted a bill that you and I supported last year
00:14:34.800
and Mike Lee and many others support on the Senate side.
00:14:39.100
We would actually have a fair digital advertising.
00:14:42.920
It would reduce costs to consumers and be really positive.
00:14:48.820
Ken and I are opposite many of our fellow Republicans often on these issues of antitrust
00:14:54.580
because there is a libertarian streak among some Republicans that would say,
00:14:59.040
gosh, if you don't like what these companies are doing, just don't use them.
00:15:07.500
Well, first of all, I think that the streak has to do more with taking money
00:15:15.120
Oh, so you think that the people that vote with big tech do so
00:15:18.540
because of the political contributions that big tech gives?
00:15:23.920
I think that big tech has bought many of the think tanks in this town.
00:15:29.440
I think big tech has their tentacles in just about every area.
00:15:32.740
They are literally spending over $100 million to influence policy in Washington, D.C.
00:15:38.080
It brings us to my favorite paragraph in the book.
00:15:44.240
They are fully engaged in political patronage, hiring the family members of elected leaders,
00:15:49.520
making targeted political donations to the campaigns of critical members of Congress,
00:15:54.920
buying off various Washington, D.C. think tanks, academic centers, and advocacy groups.
00:16:00.340
And then you cite Meta, the company that owns Facebook, spent $20 million on lobbying in 2021.
00:16:08.440
The only public company that spent more on lobbying was Blue Cross Blue Shield.
00:16:14.700
Which members of Congress do you think are compromised because their family members have jobs with big tech?
00:16:21.160
Well, I mention in the book that Zoe Lofgren's daughter works for, I believe it was Amazon.
00:16:26.900
And Zoe Lofgren is a Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee from California.
00:16:30.440
Not only is she a Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee from California, she represents Silicon Valley.
00:16:35.400
But also, when we had a markup on six antitrust bills, she offered at least one poison pill amendment for every bill that we had.
00:16:47.840
And she was working every single caucus on the Democrat side trying to get them to oppose our bills.
00:16:54.540
And I don't know if she still does, but even Chuck Schumer's daughter worked for Facebook.
00:17:01.100
Two daughters work for big tech. One works for Facebook. One works for Amazon.
00:17:05.060
We also know that Nancy Pelosi's husband invests in these companies.
00:17:09.360
And it just so happens that before Google was sued last week by the U.S. Department of Justice,
00:17:16.340
two weeks earlier, her husband had sold the Google stock that they owned. Just a coincidence.
00:17:23.320
And when the American people want to understand why there isn't progress made on these issues that, frankly, should be broadly supported,
00:17:31.400
should be overwhelmingly bipartisan, you see these vectors of influence that are just outright corrupt.
00:17:41.800
And you took some time in the book to talk about how our founders thought about the creative class.
00:17:49.520
Sure. Well, it's clear that our founders valued private property rights almost above all other rights.
00:17:57.540
And they recognized that prosperity is directly linked to private property rights.
00:18:03.620
And so they set up very clearly in the Constitution a system for patents.
00:18:09.920
But they also had debates, vigorous debates, about monopolies because of the East India Company and other examples of monopolies that they saw,
00:18:21.320
And they said in an exchange between Madison and Jefferson,
00:18:26.960
oh, this could never happen in a country like America that we're setting up.
00:18:32.660
The people would, you know, rise up against it.
00:18:36.020
Little did they foresee, one, the Industrial Revolution, but also the revolution that we're going through in our economy now.
00:18:44.020
And in a lot of ways, those monopolies are preserved because we've wrapped the apparatus of big government around big tech.
00:18:50.460
And at times it's hard to tell where big government ends and big tech begins
00:18:53.760
because so many of the officials in the FCC and the Department of Justice and the FBI end up going to work for big tech.
00:19:03.540
They always want to be very accommodating because in a lot of cases it's their future employer.
00:19:08.960
And it's clear that if big tech were to actually be challenged, many of the folks would have to go out and earn a real living somehow.
00:19:19.820
Amazon also gets treatment in the book regarding their self-dealing and the way that they vertically integrate to crush small businesses and entrepreneurs.
00:19:33.800
It has a monopoly on this e-commerce platform that it owns.
00:19:37.660
And by the way, Matt, I think you and I want to celebrate success in this country.
00:19:45.180
But what they do with their platform is they recognize a product is selling very well.
00:19:55.580
They have a contract with a third-party widget maker.
00:20:05.200
They take the third-party widget and they put it on page three.
00:20:11.640
So they are using their platform in an anti-competitive way.
00:20:17.220
They're using their platform to identify a successful product and then make sure that they punish the innovator of that product,
00:20:24.260
punish the investors in that product, and take every last cent that they can out of the market for their own product.
00:20:32.980
And Jeff Bezos' response to that was, well, people like Amazon.
00:20:36.520
Matter of fact, they like Amazon a lot more than they like Congress.
00:20:39.460
Why shouldn't we just submit to our big tech overlords?
00:20:42.060
If over 80 percent of people are saying that they believe that Amazon would do the right thing,
00:20:47.400
and certainly Congress does not reach that threshold, who are we to critique them?
00:20:52.880
We're individuals that understand that at some point China catches up.
00:20:57.240
And China catches up because they have low labor rates.
00:21:04.520
And the only way we stay ahead of China and others in the world economy is to out-innovate.
00:21:10.020
And if you take the incentive to innovate away, if you take the investment in innovation away, we lose.
00:21:15.980
You're very critical of Apple in the book as well.
00:21:24.480
And, you know, Elon Musk has described this app marketplace that Apple controls as a functional tax on the Internet,
00:21:33.000
you know, a 30 percent tax on all things that people are using to interface with the digital world.
00:21:38.640
How should people think about the app marketplace in antitrust terms or in government power terms?
00:21:45.400
Well, if you look at Spotify, Spotify is paying a 30 percent surcharge because Apple has a product that competes with Spotify, Apple Music, on the App Store.
00:21:59.840
And so if you dare to compete with an Apple product on their platform, they are going to charge you.
00:22:13.060
And actually, people are still choosing Spotify because it's a better product even at that cost.
00:22:19.620
But Apple is going to make money off of that better product because they're on the App Store.
00:22:24.420
Now, one great example of what happens with Apple is Parler.
00:22:28.060
After the January 6th ride in the United States Capitol, the next day, Apple took Parler off the App Store.
00:22:36.080
Within two days, Amazon Web Services refuses to service the web contract with Parler, and Parler is basically shut down.
00:22:46.900
It's shut down because it is a conservative voice in the Twitter sphere.
00:22:52.220
And so we know that people were using Facebook on January 6th.
00:22:58.880
The company that was punished was Parler, and it started with Apple.
00:23:04.920
The author is Congressman Ken Buck, and he really takes a lot of these big tech companies to task.
00:23:10.720
He calls Twitter an ideologically driven cartel.
00:23:14.280
Now, obviously, we're seeing some changes at Twitter now.
00:23:16.660
Those changes were probably happening in real time as you were writing the book.
00:23:22.800
Today, I assess it as a positive move and actually pressure on these other companies.
00:23:29.280
The great thing of what Elon Musk has done is he's really brought back the curtain and exposed the mindset of these wokesters in Silicon Valley.
00:23:45.300
They are people who just disagree with our point of view.
00:23:50.840
And what's so beautiful about this monopoly, Matt, is that on the one hand, they have a monopoly in the business marketplace,
00:23:58.320
and they use the same tactics to try to have a monopoly in the marketplace of ideas.
00:24:05.400
They don't want you buying someone else's product, so they actually destroy the competition.
00:24:09.900
They don't want you believing someone else's ideology, so they try to destroy that ideology.
00:24:15.980
The information we learned from the Twitter files about how government tried to manipulate viewpoint and content,
00:24:25.020
how internal executives and internal entities were set up to silence conservatives, to limit certain viewpoints,
00:24:33.340
how pervasive do you think that is across all of these major tech companies,
00:24:37.740
or do you think there's something different and unique about Twitter?
00:24:40.560
No, I don't think there's something different and unique.
00:24:42.060
I think it's often the same people that are moving between companies that are helping to form the culture in those companies.
00:24:49.180
Every one of these companies, I give examples in the book about how they all have suppressed speech.
00:24:56.580
Jim Banks from Indiana criticized Time magazine for giving the Woman of the Year award to a biological male,
00:25:09.460
You can disagree with it, but he has a right to speak his mind,
00:25:14.280
and Rand Paul was taken off the platform for questioning Dr. Fauci in a Senate hearing.
00:25:23.020
In a public Senate hearing, he's taken off the platform for that kind of speech.
00:25:26.860
We know that Shelby Steele had a documentary, What Killed Michael Brown,
00:25:34.040
and that documentary was taken off of the Amazon site as a result of it being Black History Month,
00:25:43.220
and it didn't fall in the examples of black history that Amazon wanted to promote.
00:25:48.980
So every one of these companies has engaged in this same type of censorship
00:25:53.320
because the speech disagrees with their view of the world.
00:25:59.600
It's a tremendous diagnosis of the problem we have, how we got here,
00:26:04.840
how it is fundamentally anti-American when we look at the values and principles
00:26:08.920
that really organized our concept of freedom and speech and expression.
00:26:15.180
Remedies, I want to talk about that, and let's sort of go through it constitutionally.
00:26:19.920
I mean, you look at Article I powers, the powers of the United States Congress,
00:26:23.880
the legislative branch, and your indictment is that the legislative branch
00:26:28.440
is essentially bought off one way or the other.
00:26:31.620
Do you have hope that through Article I powers,
00:26:35.560
we will be able to reach some sort of vindication for free speech,
00:26:40.540
or is the system so corrupted by money and influence and compromise that that is less likely?
00:26:49.620
There's a problem when monopolies control steel and oil and banks.
00:26:56.100
There's a bigger problem when they control information.
00:26:59.280
When they control information, we're talking about a threat to our democracy.
00:27:03.080
Obviously, the control of steel means that steel prices will go up,
00:27:09.700
When they control information, we really have to be concerned about them
00:27:14.500
putting their thumb on the scale in an election.
00:27:17.480
So first of all, I think it's critical that we talk about a monopoly over information.
00:27:22.100
But secondly, the idea that somehow we could pass a law in the 1800s,
00:27:29.780
and we could pass a law, the Clayton Act, in 1913,
00:27:38.640
We'll just let them develop the case law for antitrust.
00:27:45.960
We have a new economy now involving e-commerce,
00:27:48.660
involving searches on the Internet, involving social media.
00:28:04.260
We had the capability in the Industrial Revolution,
00:28:09.340
I believe what we have to do is to make sure that we give information,
00:28:16.040
and just as you and I tried to do in the Judiciary Committee and on the floor,
00:28:27.000
We convinced 39 of our colleagues, 37 of our colleagues,
00:28:34.160
Our leadership never expected a vote that high on those bills,
00:28:38.380
and I believe the momentum will just keep increasing.
00:28:45.980
and you point out the Pelosi familial stock trades
00:29:00.560
I actually think that big tech has become more powerful
00:29:04.780
than any government that has ever existed in all of human history,
00:29:08.020
and the power they have over the United States Congress
00:29:11.440
is sickening and debasing and ultimately debilitating
00:29:15.400
to a lot of our common-sense legislative efforts.
00:29:19.980
I also want to talk about opportunities that exist
00:29:23.180
sort of through Article II powers and the executive.
00:29:26.900
I mean, should Joe Biden be doing more on this,
00:29:29.260
and what could a visionary administration or president do
00:29:37.840
Well, I love the fact that Joe Biden has the Democrats
00:29:42.280
in control of the House, in control of the Senate,
00:29:44.400
obviously in control of the executive branch for two years,
00:29:54.900
calling on Republicans and Democrats to work together
00:30:00.840
If he wanted it solved, he had the ability to ask
00:30:04.140
Speaker Pelosi, Leader Schumer, to get it solved.
00:30:07.640
Well, I mean, he has blood on his hands on a lot of these issues
00:30:10.200
because it was members of the Biden administration
00:30:12.000
that were trying to manipulate viewpoints on big tech
00:30:16.840
So they don't want to divorce big government from big tech.
00:30:19.800
They actually want to meld the two to a greater extent,
00:30:23.780
which actually kind of sounds a lot like China to me
00:30:28.220
But if the right person were guiding the decisions
00:30:31.120
of the administration, lay out a vision for what could be done
00:30:40.540
Well, Matt, I'm not even sure we need to have a vision.
00:30:44.420
I think we can just look at the Trump administration.
00:30:46.340
The Trump administration, along with the state attorney generals,
00:30:51.500
engaged in a series of lawsuits against Google, Apple, Amazon, Facebook,
00:30:59.020
Now, it takes a period of time to make that happen,
00:31:01.900
but the Federal Trade Commission and the Antitrust Division
00:31:09.360
we're going to see dramatic Supreme Court decisions
00:31:15.080
Leading right into my next question about the role of the courts in this,
00:31:18.760
oftentimes litigation around these issues does not get very far
00:31:22.020
because there are special immunities that the United States Congress
00:31:25.120
has given these technology companies that shield them
00:31:28.280
from the very same liability that would append to Fox News or CNN
00:31:34.660
or any website or local news channel or local newspaper.
00:31:39.360
Some believe that stripping those immunities will be sufficient,
00:31:45.220
not just necessary but sufficient, to resolve the issue
00:31:48.460
because then trial lawyers will feast on the carcasses of big tech
00:31:54.780
Do you believe that repealing Section 230 would be sufficient
00:32:01.840
And there are really three areas, antitrust, Section 230, and privacy laws.
00:32:08.200
All three have to be used to accomplish our goals.
00:32:15.280
These companies are using the phrase otherwise objectionable as a shield
00:32:18.940
to hide behind and in a way to punish people whose views they disagree with.
00:32:24.540
The real issue you mentioned, you know, CNN and Fox News and others,
00:32:30.780
we don't object when CNN comes up with a story with a particular viewpoint
00:32:35.280
because we have Fox, we have Newsmax, we have One American News,
00:32:39.800
and so many others that can offer a differing viewpoint.
00:32:43.260
We don't object when the Washington Post or the New York Times
00:32:46.260
has a particular viewpoint because the Wall Street Journal,
00:32:49.180
the New York Post will have a different viewpoint
00:32:51.000
and in the marketplace of ideas will have competition.
00:32:54.540
When Google controls 94% of searches in America
00:32:57.820
and changes its algorithm to punish conservatives,
00:33:01.560
and specifically Donald Trump, in June of 2020 and benefit Joe Biden,
00:33:12.760
to allow the American public, the consumer, to get information they need.
00:33:17.720
Power over freedom is one of the themes we see throughout the book,
00:33:24.300
And we have the power to do something about it.
00:33:26.580
Now, there was legislation that was passed to deal with some of these issues.
00:33:31.340
There were other bills that you and I supported that did not pass the House.
00:33:35.480
So talk about the legislation that did get through the House
00:33:39.480
and what effect you think that will have on the conditions you described and crushed.
00:33:45.340
One was a bill that allowed state attorney generals to file a lawsuit against Big Tech
00:33:50.980
and keep that, an antitrust lawsuit against Big Tech,
00:33:57.320
So what's been happening is a lot of these lawsuits are getting moved to the Northern District of California
00:34:01.920
because they, quote, unquote, have a special expertise in Big Tech.
00:34:09.720
The Northern District of California, Silicon Valley is in that district, a jury pool that works for many of these companies,
00:34:23.440
So we passed a bill that said that if you sue somebody in Texas because they do business in Texas,
00:34:30.760
The second bill that we passed was a bill that actually gives more resources to the Antitrust Division
00:34:38.700
And the third bill was a bill that was sort of added on to get some support in the Senate.
00:34:43.600
It was a bill from Senator Hawley that basically said that if a company has a tie to Communist China,
00:34:51.540
that tie has to be disclosed at the time that a merger is being reviewed.
00:34:57.460
And one of the critiques that some of our colleagues make of our efforts is,
00:35:00.980
well, you know, if you don't want Amazon to be the biggest, baddest,
00:35:04.180
most vertically integrated innovation quashing company on the planet Earth,
00:35:09.220
You know, do you want these Chinese companies to supplant U.S. technology?
00:35:17.100
Well, they will most assuredly win if we don't encourage competition
00:35:20.920
in the American marketplace because American companies will get big, fat, and lazy,
00:35:25.380
and we will lose ultimately in the marketplace.
00:35:29.060
The way to beat China is not to look more like China.
00:35:32.220
And that's the problem with this big tech enterprise
00:35:40.900
If that's the winning model, China's going to do it better than we are.
00:35:44.100
And so we have to have a model that allows innovation,
00:35:48.000
and that doesn't permit these companies to engage in anti-competitive behavior.
00:35:51.820
I do not have confidence in the Congress to be able to address these issues
00:35:56.220
to the degree that is necessary given the rising power of big tech.
00:36:01.440
I see an executive branch right now that is not only not helpful,
00:36:07.540
And you describe a court system where they're able to play,
00:36:10.360
that previously they were able to play to this geographic advantage.
00:36:14.600
And then similarly, you know, we have these immunities that still exist.
00:36:19.820
So, I mean, people need to understand the diagnosis there.
00:36:22.900
And it brings us to sort of, I think, the fourth leg of the stool,
00:36:25.620
and that's consumer choice and personal choices.
00:36:30.000
because you led on not taking political donations from these companies.
00:36:38.780
You don't utilize these companies in your daily activities.
00:36:43.540
To what extent is consumer choice a powerful tool to drive change?
00:36:48.880
Ask the civil rights leaders of the 50s, 60s, and 70s how powerful it is to boycott racist businesses.
00:36:56.220
Ask people just how powerful it is in their neighborhood when they identify a wrong
00:37:05.260
Boycott, it is very powerful, and it's really what we could do.
00:37:11.460
You know, when you don't use Google and you use DuckDuckGo or some other search engine,
00:37:16.120
it may take an extra couple seconds to get the result that you want, but it feels good.
00:37:20.740
And when you don't order your toilet paper for overnight delivery,
00:37:24.800
you drive to a store or you wait two or three days, it feels good.
00:37:29.240
And folks can turn off the tracking devices on their phone and drive these companies crazy.
00:37:35.200
If you're not using Waze or Google Maps to go someplace, turn the tracking device off,
00:37:42.560
and you will deny them of information that they absolutely need that they sell to advertisers.
00:37:53.060
Well, Speaker McCarthy has talked at some length about data privacy and data portability.
00:38:00.160
He seems to understand the issue intellectually, that the more of our own information we get control over,
00:38:11.360
You know, how do you assess the role of some of those data bills and privacy bills,
00:38:17.040
likely to go through the Energy and Commerce Committee, not our Judiciary Committee,
00:38:21.560
I do, and let's just describe what data portability is.
00:38:25.860
In 1996, when the Telecommunications Act passed, Congress gave consumers the ability to take their cell phone number
00:38:38.840
and that opened up the marketplace where people weren't concerned about changing
00:38:43.620
and looking for a better plan and a less expensive plan.
00:38:46.740
What we're talking about is when you search for something on Google, you own that information,
00:38:52.120
and you can take that information to another search engine,
00:38:55.220
and you can get paid for that information as the owner of that information.
00:39:00.100
And that portability is essential to opening up the marketplace and allowing competition in this area.
00:39:09.520
I think a lot of other Republicans understand it, and hopefully we can move some of that legislation.
00:39:13.800
And from a structural standpoint, it converts the user from the product to the client.
00:39:23.540
You know, in a lot of ways right now, technology is cheap to access because you aren't the one being served.
00:39:32.240
Data is being extracted from you, sold elsewhere, and we've even heard liberal commentators like John Oliver
00:39:40.600
talk about the importance of data privacy and limiting the extent to which all of our searches
00:39:46.480
and all of our places we go for barbecue can't be just stripped and then placed into the marketplace
00:39:54.140
without not only not our consent, not even our knowledge.
00:39:57.120
And these executives at these companies have said publicly, on the record,
00:40:03.080
I can tell you what you're going to think before you even think it.
00:40:06.520
That kind of arrogance is scary, but it's accurate.
00:40:09.580
And we need to make sure that as consumers, we're getting a benefit for that information.
00:40:15.300
So I got to know, are you selling crushed on Amazon?
00:40:23.800
I don't buy a single product from Amazon, but if Amazon wants to promote this book,
00:40:30.340
I'm all in favor of having them promote the book and having people read about what an evil company Amazon is.
00:40:36.280
Yeah, I don't know that they'll be promoting it, and I don't know that their algorithm is going to drive people to your book,
00:40:41.620
but it is an interesting commentary on the market power that a company like Amazon has.
00:40:47.660
I mean, if anybody writes a book, you're going to get about 75% to 85% of your sales through Amazon.
00:40:54.040
That's how people purchase this type of material to learn more.
00:40:57.340
So even as we're critiquing Amazon, it is hard to unwind from it.
00:41:01.620
As you and I are having this discussion, it is being live streamed over many of the companies that you're dictating.
00:41:07.500
And so I believe that the development of alternate pathways and tools, DuckDuckGo, we really promote Rumble as a way for folks to get video content.
00:41:20.100
You almost have to stay on multiple battlefields so that the argument can hopefully get through to some extent given the tremendous headwinds we face.
00:41:28.900
Well, we can't get off the grid and try to convince a majority of Americans that we're right.
00:41:34.020
And I also have an iPhone because I really don't have too much choice outside of the two major phone manufacturers to make that decision.
00:41:44.620
So I think there are things that we have to do practically.
00:41:48.580
But when we have a choice, we should absolutely make that choice.
00:41:53.700
You can knock it out on a good weekend afternoon.
00:42:01.240
And you're going to get great information about technology and telecommunications.
00:42:05.440
Ken Buck, thank you so much for writing this book, for being a warrior in the cause, for free speech, and for joining me on Firebrand.