The Anchormen Show with Matt Gaetz - February 02, 2023


Episode 86 LIVE： Crushed (feat. Rep. Ken Buck) – Firebrand with Matt Gaetz

Topics
cancellations by AT&T and DirecTV big tech lobbying Amazon critique big tech antitrust big tech legislation consumer choice and data portability Amazon and book promotion
Hosted by
Matt Gaetz
Mentioned
Ken Buck Joe Biden Parler Wes Hunt Jerry Nadler Donald Trump Sergeant Corey Ryan Beekman App Store Chuck Schumer Michael Brown Nancy Pelosi Zoe Lofgren Elon Musk Brian Representative Buck David Horowitz Mike Huckabee Shelby Steele John Oliver Jeff Bezos and 16 more
Episode 85 LIVE： Backbenching with Burchett (feat. Rep. Tim Burchett) – Firebrand with Matt Gaetz Episode 88 LIVE： Balloon Mania – Firebrand with Matt Gaetz

Episode Stats


Length

42 minutes

Words per minute

163.18

Word count

6,997

Sentence count

451

Harmful content

Misogyny

5

sentences flagged

Toxicity

6

sentences flagged

Hate speech

6

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode of Firebrand, Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-GA) takes aim at Big Tech and its use of artificial intelligence and big data to spy on us, and how we can fight back. In addition, the House Judiciary Committee votes down an amendment that would allow members of Congress to lead their committee in the Pledge of Allegiance.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 We'll be right back.
00:00:30.000 This is the right place. This is the movement for you.
00:00:33.120 You ever watch this guy on television? It's like a machine. Matt Gaetz.
00:00:37.960 I'm a canceled man in some corners of the internet. Many days I'm a marked man in Congress, a wanted man by the deep state.
00:00:45.860 They aren't really coming for me. They're coming for you. I'm just in the way.
00:00:50.920 Welcome back to Firebrand. We are broadcasting live out of room 2021 of the Rayburn House Office Building on the Capitol Complex here in our nation's capital, Washington, D.C.
00:01:05.100 And this episode gives us a deep dive into big tech, what the problems are, what the various things we can do to fight back might be.
00:01:14.580 Ken Buck wrote a great book about it. It's called Crushed. Terrific, terrific policy prescriptions there.
00:01:21.580 Great diagnosis. We're going to get to that in a moment.
00:01:24.100 But Jameson on Rumble, he says that debate on the pledge was hilarious.
00:01:30.420 So we had drama in the House Judiciary Committee today over, of all things, the Pledge of Allegiance.
00:01:38.380 I don't think you could say the Pledge of Allegiance too much.
00:01:40.480 So here's how the story begins. Two years ago, when the Democrats were in control, I thought it might be a nice, unifying thing to put into our Judiciary Committee rules a Pledge of Allegiance at the beginning of every committee meeting.
00:01:56.760 And two years ago, when the Democrats were in charge, this is how that went. Take a listen.
00:02:02.920 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I want to extend a welcome to the new committee members.
00:02:07.600 I'm grateful to be back on this august committee, and I understand and appreciate the significance and importance of the work that we do.
00:02:16.460 And I just think it would be nice if, in the spirit of national unity and national pride, which I know we all aspire to do to a greater extent,
00:02:24.520 that at the beginning of each meeting, the chair or one of the designees of the chair would have the opportunity to lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance.
00:02:31.080 We're all aware that in these times, it's important for the country to see members of Congress working together on some things.
00:02:39.240 And while I know that we can deal with divisive issues in the committee, it would be my hope that we could start every committee with a great, unifying, patriotic moment.
00:02:49.000 I yield back.
00:02:49.940 The gentleman yields back.
00:02:51.460 I recognize myself to speak in opposition to the amendment.
00:02:54.340 The House begins every day with the Pledge of Allegiance.
00:03:02.640 We're covered by that.
00:03:05.060 There's no necessity to say the Pledge of Allegiance twice during the same day.
00:03:08.820 So that was two years ago.
00:03:14.200 And oh, my gosh, those masks are ugly.
00:03:16.200 I can't believe Nancy Pelosi made us wear those things.
00:03:18.500 Brian on Facebook thinks that I should not even be able to own a flag or say the Pledge of Allegiance. 0.99
00:03:24.960 What a little fascist you are, Brian. 0.94
00:03:27.420 A note that Michael made just now. 0.98
00:03:29.900 So that brings us to the Republicans regaining control of the Judiciary Committee.
00:03:33.840 And so I figure, well, the Democrats, they voted down the Pledge of Allegiance two years ago.
00:03:39.340 They literally voted it down.
00:03:41.480 And so I thought, well, we're in the majority now.
00:03:43.760 Let me offer it again.
00:03:45.200 And you will not believe the fireworks.
00:03:47.220 This is from today in the House Judiciary Committee.
00:03:50.180 For those of you who are listening to the podcast, you're going to hear me.
00:03:52.720 You're going to hear Jerry Nadler.
00:03:54.620 And then the terrific voice of Wes Hunt, freshman from Texas.
00:04:00.060 Take a listen.
00:04:02.400 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:04:03.440 Here on the August Judiciary Committee, we are charged with vindicating the constitutional rights of our fellow Americans.
00:04:10.100 And our Pledge of Allegiance is a national symbol of pride and unity.
00:04:15.540 And it was a great honor to be able to invite one of my constituents this morning to offer the Pledge of Allegiance.
00:04:21.000 And so my amendment gives the committee the opportunity to begin each of its meetings with the Pledge of Allegiance.
00:04:28.240 It gives our members the ability to invite inspirational constituents to be able to share and lead in the Pledge of Allegiance.
00:04:34.360 I offered this amendment to the judiciary rules two years ago, and it was defeated.
00:04:39.000 And I'm very optimistic that we'll have a different outcome today.
00:04:41.660 That's the amendment, Mr. Chairman.
00:04:43.380 I thank the gentleman for his amendment.
00:04:44.860 Support the amendment.
00:04:45.740 Does anyone seek recognition?
00:04:47.620 Gentleman from New York, ranking member now.
00:04:49.580 I would oppose it simply on the grounds that, as members know, we pledge allegiance every day on the floor.
00:04:56.920 And I don't know why we should pledge allegiance twice in the same day to show how patriotic we are.
00:05:03.420 As I said, we pledge allegiance on the floor every day.
00:05:06.000 I don't think this is the most important amendment in the world.
00:05:08.160 But since we do pledge allegiance every day on the floor, I think it's unnecessary.
00:05:13.000 Quite frankly, you are correct, sir.
00:05:16.140 We should be saying the Pledge every single day, every single morning, and every single committee.
00:05:23.020 Because when I was in elementary school, that's what I did.
00:05:26.520 And I worked my butt off to be sitting here right now in this room.
00:05:29.780 And the least we can do is to pay homage to the sacrifice of those that have come before us to say,
00:05:35.720 you know what, Democrat or Republican, we are in this together.
00:05:40.380 That flag is the one thing that unites us.
00:05:43.140 Let's just take 30 seconds to put all of our differences aside and say we can agree that this country is wonderful,
00:05:50.140 this country has done outstanding things, and that brave men and women were willing to die for it.
00:05:54.360 And that's what sets us apart from every other country in the entire world.
00:05:57.620 Every generation stands up to die and fight for that flag.
00:06:01.200 The least we can do is send a Pledge of Allegiance.
00:06:04.060 I yield back.
00:06:06.540 That was Congressman Wes Hunt, new member of Congress, but a rising star already.
00:06:12.560 And I think it's quite something that Jerry Nadler spoke against my amendment today.
00:06:18.920 Wes Hunt gave that speech.
00:06:20.420 And then subsequently, Jerry Nadler and every single other Democrat on the committee ended up voting with us
00:06:27.640 because they were properly shamed into doing the right and patriotic thing.
00:06:33.000 And speaking of right and patriotic, it was such an honor today to invite,
00:06:38.000 to give the first Pledge of Allegiance in the House Judiciary Committee for the 118th Congress,
00:06:43.220 one of Northwest Florida's own, Staff Sergeant Beekman, joined me.
00:06:47.540 We had a great time, a great patriotic time.
00:06:51.040 Take a little, listen, and watch on this video of our experience.
00:07:01.060 It is my pleasure and distinct honor to introduce to the committee Staff Sergeant Corey Ryan Beekman,
00:07:07.980 an American hero and a constituent of mine residing in Pensacola, Florida,
00:07:12.140 and I request that he be permitted to lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance.
00:07:14.760 It's not objection.
00:07:16.600 I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
00:07:20.800 and to the republic for which it stands,
00:07:23.960 one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
00:07:32.820 Patriotism to me is summed up to one thing.
00:07:35.720 Patriotism to me is men and women that have decided to write a check to the American people,
00:07:42.600 which is redeemable up into their entire life,
00:07:47.400 just like my fellow team leader back in Iraq.
00:07:50.660 We don't get along left and right side of the aisle,
00:07:54.000 but we need to remember we're all Americans
00:07:56.960 and get back to the core beliefs of what we were
00:08:01.480 and not so divisive, but think of what as a whole.
00:08:06.220 We're going to disagree, but we need to find the middle ground as Americans.
00:08:09.940 I could not have said it better myself,
00:08:16.260 and we are always, always honored to be able to highlight the distinct and elite patriotism,
00:08:22.760 especially of our fellow Northwest Floridians.
00:08:25.360 Great comment from Joe on Rumble says,
00:08:27.640 If Wes Hunt were a stock, I'm buying a bag.
00:08:31.240 And I totally agree with that assessment.
00:08:33.260 But if we want to protect the true values that undergird our Constitution for free speech,
00:08:38.340 we are going to have to take on big tech.
00:08:40.640 Now, one of the people who is at the forefront of that fight
00:08:43.660 is Congressman Ken Buck of Colorado.
00:08:46.740 He stopped by Firebrand just moments ago for a discussion.
00:08:49.940 Take a listen.
00:08:52.740 Mr. Speaker, I rise to discuss the threats facing conservative speech
00:08:56.960 in this country.
00:08:58.540 When members of government take it upon themselves
00:09:01.320 to declare certain speech illegal or undesirable,
00:09:05.140 they effectively silence opposition.
00:09:07.820 This isn't the American way. 0.97
00:09:10.040 We've seen this kind of censorship in Saudi Arabia,
00:09:12.800 communist China, Soviet Russian.
00:09:15.020 We never want to see it in America.
00:09:17.760 Tonight, we're gathered to call attention to a shocking coordinated attempt
00:09:22.180 by progressives in business and government
00:09:24.480 to suppress dissent, stifle debate, and threaten free speech.
00:09:30.720 You just heard from one of the greatest advocates for free speech in our country,
00:09:37.900 certainly the best in the House of Representatives.
00:09:40.120 My colleague from California, my colleague from Colorado,
00:09:43.400 would not want to mix those up, Ken Buck.
00:09:46.140 And last evening, that was Representative Buck leading an hour of debate
00:09:50.280 on a critical issue regarding telecommunications companies
00:09:53.520 and what they're doing to limit access to programming based on viewpoint.
00:09:58.220 Ken Buck also wrote a great book, Crushed.
00:10:02.300 What a title.
00:10:03.740 Big Tech's War on Free Speech.
00:10:05.380 It's got a terrific forward from Senator Ted Cruz.
00:10:08.620 Great endorsements from Governor Mike Huckabee and David Horowitz as well.
00:10:12.860 Ken, I'm going to get into the book in a moment,
00:10:15.040 but can we start with the hour of debate you led last night?
00:10:18.500 What led you to do that?
00:10:19.920 Well, I'll tell you what led me to do it.
00:10:21.100 Well, DirecTV took Newsmax off.
00:10:25.820 AT&T and DirecTV took One America News off,
00:10:29.960 and it is clearly an attempt by the left to silence the right.
00:10:34.840 We had two sitting members of the United States Congress,
00:10:39.000 members of the Energy and Commerce Committee,
00:10:40.940 who demanded that three networks, Newsmax, One America News, and Fox News,
00:10:47.980 be taken off the air because of their radical positions.
00:10:51.300 When we, as members of Congress, start to silence the other side,
00:10:56.400 we've got real problems.
00:10:57.380 I'm not opposed to any viewpoints on the other side. 0.99
00:11:00.620 I think the more they talk, the dumber they look, and the more we gain. 0.98
00:11:04.800 But to try to silence the other side is just wrong. 0.96
00:11:08.600 Well, and it's very important that you understand that fact pattern.
00:11:11.120 You had Democrat members of Congress who don't like the views that they see on Newsmax,
00:11:17.060 One America News, probably Real America's Voice,
00:11:19.420 and any other conservative-leaning channel.
00:11:21.240 And so they sent a threat, an explicit threat, to AT&T, DirecTV,
00:11:26.300 to try to get these channels canceled.
00:11:29.900 And you know what?
00:11:30.600 It worked.
00:11:31.460 It worked as to OAN, and now we see that very same negative action directed toward Newsmax.
00:11:37.120 And do you think that's part of a broader play that you talk about in your book, Crushed?
00:11:42.440 I do.
00:11:43.200 But, Matt, one of the important things is, and I failed to mention it earlier,
00:11:46.200 is that Energy and Commerce has oversight over the Federal Communications Commission,
00:11:51.480 which makes a lot of these decisions.
00:11:53.200 And so, really, they're putting pressure on companies to take off conservative speech
00:11:59.780 or the Biden administration will act in concert and make sure they're punished.
00:12:04.800 And do you think these companies really feel that pressure is a negative thing,
00:12:08.660 or is it more that the members of Congress basically gaslight a permission structure
00:12:13.720 for these woke corporations to do what they want to do anyway,
00:12:18.500 and that is to limit a conservative viewpoint from being proliferated?
00:12:22.020 Well, you and I will never know because we don't go to Davos.
00:12:25.200 But the folks that go to Davos, that rub elbows, that make these kinds of decisions,
00:12:29.320 they all get together behind closed doors.
00:12:31.420 I don't know who initiates the conversation, but the result is the same.
00:12:35.020 It's censorship.
00:12:36.280 Undeniably, this is part of a broader construct that all Americans need to be aware of.
00:12:41.100 We're going to get into the book in a moment,
00:12:42.660 but here were my thoughts on the cancellations that we saw with AT&T and DirecTV.
00:12:47.000 Take a listen.
00:12:47.400 I remember when I was in school, it was always the liberals, the classical liberals,
00:12:54.440 that wanted this robust marketplace of ideas,
00:12:57.580 and it was a few conservatives who didn't want you to see certain things
00:13:01.920 or look at certain things or read certain things.
00:13:04.900 And now it's like totally flipped the script because they have such a low view of our fellow Americans.
00:13:12.040 So what are we going to do about it?
00:13:13.380 The Energy and Commerce Committee should be holding hearings on this.
00:13:16.720 The Department of Justice antitrust entities should be looking into whether or not
00:13:21.640 this is too much of a concentration of power in entities like AT&T and DirecTV
00:13:26.120 that are stifling Newsmax and One America News
00:13:30.160 and even Google's terrible work to try to demonetize the Federalist.
00:13:35.760 And I also believe that in the House Judiciary Committee,
00:13:38.340 we should ask these questions seriously
00:13:40.120 and encourage the Department of Justice to take action.
00:13:43.380 Congressman Ken Buck is my colleague on the House Judiciary Committee,
00:13:47.940 and we've worked very closely to try to stop this cartel of big tech.
00:13:53.660 The book is crushed.
00:13:54.680 It's got Google, Facebook, Twitter, Amazon, and Apple on the cover.
00:13:58.800 Ken, which is the most dangerous in your research?
00:14:00.860 Google.
00:14:01.320 And why?
00:14:02.300 They control digital advertising.
00:14:04.620 They control over 90% of the buy side, 90% of the sell side,
00:14:08.260 and they bought DoubleClick, which is the auction house.
00:14:11.680 If you can imagine, they own the referees.
00:14:14.960 They own the league office.
00:14:16.440 They own both teams playing the football game.
00:14:18.980 And you and I are supposed to go to Vegas and place a wager on who's going to win.
00:14:23.400 It's absolutely absurd to think that one company can have that type of power in digital advertising
00:14:29.400 if Congress did the right thing and adopted a bill that you and I supported last year
00:14:34.800 and Mike Lee and many others support on the Senate side.
00:14:39.100 We would actually have a fair digital advertising.
00:14:42.920 It would reduce costs to consumers and be really positive.
00:14:45.920 And let me be straight with our viewers.
00:14:48.820 Ken and I are opposite many of our fellow Republicans often on these issues of antitrust
00:14:54.580 because there is a libertarian streak among some Republicans that would say,
00:14:59.040 gosh, if you don't like what these companies are doing, just don't use them.
00:15:04.080 Create your own company.
00:15:05.580 What would be your response to that critique?
00:15:07.500 Well, first of all, I think that the streak has to do more with taking money
00:15:11.680 than it does with their ideological views.
00:15:15.120 Oh, so you think that the people that vote with big tech do so
00:15:18.540 because of the political contributions that big tech gives?
00:15:21.520 Not only to them, but to the overall effort.
00:15:23.920 I think that big tech has bought many of the think tanks in this town.
00:15:29.440 I think big tech has their tentacles in just about every area.
00:15:32.740 They are literally spending over $100 million to influence policy in Washington, D.C.
00:15:38.080 It brings us to my favorite paragraph in the book.
00:15:41.680 I'm reading directly here.
00:15:44.240 They are fully engaged in political patronage, hiring the family members of elected leaders,
00:15:49.520 making targeted political donations to the campaigns of critical members of Congress,
00:15:54.920 buying off various Washington, D.C. think tanks, academic centers, and advocacy groups.
00:16:00.340 And then you cite Meta, the company that owns Facebook, spent $20 million on lobbying in 2021.
00:16:06.480 Amazon spent more than $19 million.
00:16:08.440 The only public company that spent more on lobbying was Blue Cross Blue Shield.
00:16:14.700 Which members of Congress do you think are compromised because their family members have jobs with big tech?
00:16:21.160 Well, I mention in the book that Zoe Lofgren's daughter works for, I believe it was Amazon.
00:16:26.900 And Zoe Lofgren is a Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee from California.
00:16:30.440 Not only is she a Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee from California, she represents Silicon Valley.
00:16:35.400 But also, when we had a markup on six antitrust bills, she offered at least one poison pill amendment for every bill that we had. 0.94
00:16:45.220 She voted against every bill that we had.
00:16:47.840 And she was working every single caucus on the Democrat side trying to get them to oppose our bills. 1.00
00:16:54.540 And I don't know if she still does, but even Chuck Schumer's daughter worked for Facebook.
00:16:58.420 Oh, no, no, no, my friend. Two daughters.
00:17:00.660 Two?
00:17:01.100 Two daughters work for big tech. One works for Facebook. One works for Amazon.
00:17:05.060 We also know that Nancy Pelosi's husband invests in these companies.
00:17:09.360 And it just so happens that before Google was sued last week by the U.S. Department of Justice,
00:17:16.340 two weeks earlier, her husband had sold the Google stock that they owned. Just a coincidence.
00:17:22.840 Unbelievable.
00:17:23.320 And when the American people want to understand why there isn't progress made on these issues that, frankly, should be broadly supported,
00:17:31.400 should be overwhelmingly bipartisan, you see these vectors of influence that are just outright corrupt.
00:17:38.360 You are a constitutional conservative.
00:17:40.420 You're a student of history.
00:17:41.800 And you took some time in the book to talk about how our founders thought about the creative class.
00:17:48.520 Reflect on that a little bit.
00:17:49.520 Sure. Well, it's clear that our founders valued private property rights almost above all other rights.
00:17:57.540 And they recognized that prosperity is directly linked to private property rights.
00:18:03.620 And so they set up very clearly in the Constitution a system for patents.
00:18:09.920 But they also had debates, vigorous debates, about monopolies because of the East India Company and other examples of monopolies that they saw,
00:18:18.340 which were really state-sanctioned monopolies.
00:18:21.320 And they said in an exchange between Madison and Jefferson,
00:18:26.960 oh, this could never happen in a country like America that we're setting up.
00:18:31.000 Monopoly could never take place.
00:18:32.660 The people would, you know, rise up against it.
00:18:36.020 Little did they foresee, one, the Industrial Revolution, but also the revolution that we're going through in our economy now.
00:18:44.020 And in a lot of ways, those monopolies are preserved because we've wrapped the apparatus of big government around big tech.
00:18:50.460 And at times it's hard to tell where big government ends and big tech begins
00:18:53.760 because so many of the officials in the FCC and the Department of Justice and the FBI end up going to work for big tech.
00:19:01.940 And so they never want to anger them too much.
00:19:03.540 They always want to be very accommodating because in a lot of cases it's their future employer.
00:19:08.520 Absolutely.
00:19:08.960 And it's clear that if big tech were to actually be challenged, many of the folks would have to go out and earn a real living somehow.
00:19:19.820 Amazon also gets treatment in the book regarding their self-dealing and the way that they vertically integrate to crush small businesses and entrepreneurs.
00:19:30.580 Lay out the Amazon critique.
00:19:31.720 Well, here's what Amazon does. 0.99
00:19:33.800 It has a monopoly on this e-commerce platform that it owns.
00:19:37.660 And by the way, Matt, I think you and I want to celebrate success in this country.
00:19:42.160 We don't want to criticize success.
00:19:45.180 But what they do with their platform is they recognize a product is selling very well.
00:19:54.080 We'll just call it a widget.
00:19:55.580 They have a contract with a third-party widget maker.
00:19:58.960 The widget's selling very well.
00:20:00.240 They go out and they replicate the widget.
00:20:02.960 They then sell their own widget.
00:20:05.200 They take the third-party widget and they put it on page three.
00:20:09.560 They put their widget up on page one.
00:20:11.640 So they are using their platform in an anti-competitive way.
00:20:17.220 They're using their platform to identify a successful product and then make sure that they punish the innovator of that product,
00:20:24.260 punish the investors in that product, and take every last cent that they can out of the market for their own product.
00:20:32.980 And Jeff Bezos' response to that was, well, people like Amazon.
00:20:36.520 Matter of fact, they like Amazon a lot more than they like Congress.
00:20:39.460 Why shouldn't we just submit to our big tech overlords? 0.98
00:20:42.060 If over 80 percent of people are saying that they believe that Amazon would do the right thing,
00:20:47.400 and certainly Congress does not reach that threshold, who are we to critique them?
00:20:51.260 Well, I'll tell you who we are.
00:20:52.880 We're individuals that understand that at some point China catches up.
00:20:57.240 And China catches up because they have low labor rates.
00:21:00.440 They have very low environmental regulations.
00:21:02.060 It's a low energy cost.
00:21:04.520 And the only way we stay ahead of China and others in the world economy is to out-innovate. 0.99
00:21:10.020 And if you take the incentive to innovate away, if you take the investment in innovation away, we lose.
00:21:15.980 You're very critical of Apple in the book as well.
00:21:19.040 You've got all kind of interesting fruit puns.
00:21:21.620 But you talk about the app marketplace.
00:21:24.480 And, you know, Elon Musk has described this app marketplace that Apple controls as a functional tax on the Internet,
00:21:33.000 you know, a 30 percent tax on all things that people are using to interface with the digital world.
00:21:38.640 How should people think about the app marketplace in antitrust terms or in government power terms?
00:21:45.400 Well, if you look at Spotify, Spotify is paying a 30 percent surcharge because Apple has a product that competes with Spotify, Apple Music, on the App Store.
00:21:59.840 And so if you dare to compete with an Apple product on their platform, they are going to charge you.
00:22:05.760 So Spotify costs $12 on the App Store.
00:22:09.940 Apple Music costs $9 a month.
00:22:13.060 And actually, people are still choosing Spotify because it's a better product even at that cost.
00:22:19.620 But Apple is going to make money off of that better product because they're on the App Store.
00:22:24.420 Now, one great example of what happens with Apple is Parler.
00:22:28.060 After the January 6th ride in the United States Capitol, the next day, Apple took Parler off the App Store.
00:22:36.080 Within two days, Amazon Web Services refuses to service the web contract with Parler, and Parler is basically shut down.
00:22:46.900 It's shut down because it is a conservative voice in the Twitter sphere.
00:22:52.220 And so we know that people were using Facebook on January 6th.
00:22:56.040 We know that people were using Twitter.
00:22:57.680 They weren't punished.
00:22:58.880 The company that was punished was Parler, and it started with Apple.
00:23:02.280 The book is crushed.
00:23:04.920 The author is Congressman Ken Buck, and he really takes a lot of these big tech companies to task.
00:23:10.720 He calls Twitter an ideologically driven cartel.
00:23:14.280 Now, obviously, we're seeing some changes at Twitter now.
00:23:16.660 Those changes were probably happening in real time as you were writing the book.
00:23:20.580 How do you assess the Twitter environment?
00:23:22.800 Today, I assess it as a positive move and actually pressure on these other companies.
00:23:29.280 The great thing of what Elon Musk has done is he's really brought back the curtain and exposed the mindset of these wokesters in Silicon Valley.
00:23:40.680 You call them wokesters?
00:23:41.480 I call them woketopians. 1.00
00:23:42.820 Okay.
00:23:43.280 Woketopians. 0.99
00:23:44.040 I'll adopt your phrase.
00:23:45.300 They are people who just disagree with our point of view.
00:23:50.840 And what's so beautiful about this monopoly, Matt, is that on the one hand, they have a monopoly in the business marketplace,
00:23:58.320 and they use the same tactics to try to have a monopoly in the marketplace of ideas.
00:24:05.400 They don't want you buying someone else's product, so they actually destroy the competition.
00:24:09.900 They don't want you believing someone else's ideology, so they try to destroy that ideology.
00:24:15.980 The information we learned from the Twitter files about how government tried to manipulate viewpoint and content,
00:24:25.020 how internal executives and internal entities were set up to silence conservatives, to limit certain viewpoints,
00:24:33.340 how pervasive do you think that is across all of these major tech companies,
00:24:37.740 or do you think there's something different and unique about Twitter?
00:24:40.560 No, I don't think there's something different and unique.
00:24:42.060 I think it's often the same people that are moving between companies that are helping to form the culture in those companies.
00:24:49.180 Every one of these companies, I give examples in the book about how they all have suppressed speech.
00:24:56.580 Jim Banks from Indiana criticized Time magazine for giving the Woman of the Year award to a biological male,
00:25:05.400 and they took him off the platform.
00:25:08.260 Now, you can agree with that.
00:25:09.460 You can disagree with it, but he has a right to speak his mind,
00:25:14.280 and Rand Paul was taken off the platform for questioning Dr. Fauci in a Senate hearing.
00:25:23.020 In a public Senate hearing, he's taken off the platform for that kind of speech.
00:25:26.860 We know that Shelby Steele had a documentary, What Killed Michael Brown,
00:25:34.040 and that documentary was taken off of the Amazon site as a result of it being Black History Month,
00:25:43.220 and it didn't fall in the examples of black history that Amazon wanted to promote.
00:25:48.980 So every one of these companies has engaged in this same type of censorship
00:25:53.320 because the speech disagrees with their view of the world.
00:25:59.600 It's a tremendous diagnosis of the problem we have, how we got here,
00:26:04.840 how it is fundamentally anti-American when we look at the values and principles
00:26:08.920 that really organized our concept of freedom and speech and expression.
00:26:15.180 Remedies, I want to talk about that, and let's sort of go through it constitutionally.
00:26:19.920 I mean, you look at Article I powers, the powers of the United States Congress,
00:26:23.880 the legislative branch, and your indictment is that the legislative branch
00:26:28.440 is essentially bought off one way or the other.
00:26:31.620 Do you have hope that through Article I powers,
00:26:35.560 we will be able to reach some sort of vindication for free speech,
00:26:40.540 or is the system so corrupted by money and influence and compromise that that is less likely?
00:26:47.720 Well, if we could back up just a second.
00:26:49.620 There's a problem when monopolies control steel and oil and banks.
00:26:56.100 There's a bigger problem when they control information.
00:26:58.960 Yes.
00:26:59.280 When they control information, we're talking about a threat to our democracy.
00:27:03.080 Obviously, the control of steel means that steel prices will go up,
00:27:07.140 and we may have a lower quality steel.
00:27:09.700 When they control information, we really have to be concerned about them
00:27:14.500 putting their thumb on the scale in an election.
00:27:17.480 So first of all, I think it's critical that we talk about a monopoly over information.
00:27:22.100 But secondly, the idea that somehow we could pass a law in the 1800s,
00:27:29.780 and we could pass a law, the Clayton Act, in 1913,
00:27:34.360 and then Congress steps back and we say,
00:27:36.900 you know, the courts can fix all of this.
00:27:38.640 We'll just let them develop the case law for antitrust.
00:27:42.360 That's not what the Constitution says.
00:27:43.920 Article I writes the laws.
00:27:45.960 We have a new economy now involving e-commerce,
00:27:48.660 involving searches on the Internet, involving social media.
00:27:54.740 We have an obligation to write the law,
00:27:57.040 not just to say to the courts, go fix this.
00:28:00.100 An obligation, but do we have the capability?
00:28:03.100 I believe we do.
00:28:04.260 We had the capability in the Industrial Revolution,
00:28:07.520 and I believe we have the capability now.
00:28:09.340 I believe what we have to do is to make sure that we give information,
00:28:14.260 just as I'm trying to do in this book,
00:28:16.040 and just as you and I tried to do in the Judiciary Committee and on the floor,
00:28:19.960 we give information to people
00:28:21.520 and hope that they ask the right questions
00:28:24.500 and come up with the right answers.
00:28:25.960 And I have faith.
00:28:27.000 We convinced 39 of our colleagues, 37 of our colleagues,
00:28:30.960 to vote for antitrust bills on the floor.
00:28:34.160 Our leadership never expected a vote that high on those bills,
00:28:38.380 and I believe the momentum will just keep increasing.
00:28:40.440 The momentum at times seems far too slow,
00:28:45.980 and you point out the Pelosi familial stock trades
00:28:49.040 as potentially one animator of that speed,
00:28:53.160 and it's certainly troubling,
00:28:54.480 and I certainly hope that's not the case.
00:28:55.980 But, I mean, it's right before our very eyes.
00:28:58.880 And I don't share your optimism.
00:29:00.560 I actually think that big tech has become more powerful
00:29:04.780 than any government that has ever existed in all of human history,
00:29:08.020 and the power they have over the United States Congress
00:29:11.440 is sickening and debasing and ultimately debilitating
00:29:15.400 to a lot of our common-sense legislative efforts.
00:29:19.980 I also want to talk about opportunities that exist
00:29:23.180 sort of through Article II powers and the executive.
00:29:26.900 I mean, should Joe Biden be doing more on this,
00:29:29.260 and what could a visionary administration or president do
00:29:33.840 in the absence of Congress as a helpful hand?
00:29:37.840 Well, I love the fact that Joe Biden has the Democrats
00:29:42.280 in control of the House, in control of the Senate,
00:29:44.400 obviously in control of the executive branch for two years,
00:29:48.260 and within weeks after that control ended,
00:29:52.760 he writes an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal
00:29:54.900 calling on Republicans and Democrats to work together
00:29:57.680 to solve this big tech antitrust issue.
00:30:00.840 If he wanted it solved, he had the ability to ask
00:30:04.140 Speaker Pelosi, Leader Schumer, to get it solved.
00:30:07.640 Well, I mean, he has blood on his hands on a lot of these issues
00:30:10.200 because it was members of the Biden administration
00:30:12.000 that were trying to manipulate viewpoints on big tech
00:30:15.400 during the coronavirus pandemic.
00:30:16.840 So they don't want to divorce big government from big tech.
00:30:19.800 They actually want to meld the two to a greater extent,
00:30:23.780 which actually kind of sounds a lot like China to me
00:30:26.240 and not the United States.
00:30:28.220 But if the right person were guiding the decisions
00:30:31.120 of the administration, lay out a vision for what could be done
00:30:34.460 with FCC appointments, with FEC appointments,
00:30:37.840 to try to get us on the right path.
00:30:40.540 Well, Matt, I'm not even sure we need to have a vision.
00:30:44.420 I think we can just look at the Trump administration.
00:30:46.340 The Trump administration, along with the state attorney generals,
00:30:51.500 engaged in a series of lawsuits against Google, Apple, Amazon, Facebook,
00:30:57.340 that are very effective.
00:30:59.020 Now, it takes a period of time to make that happen,
00:31:01.900 but the Federal Trade Commission and the Antitrust Division
00:31:05.740 both engaged in those lawsuits.
00:31:07.940 I think in the next couple of years,
00:31:09.360 we're going to see dramatic Supreme Court decisions
00:31:12.800 that are going to strike these companies.
00:31:15.080 Leading right into my next question about the role of the courts in this,
00:31:18.760 oftentimes litigation around these issues does not get very far
00:31:22.020 because there are special immunities that the United States Congress
00:31:25.120 has given these technology companies that shield them
00:31:28.280 from the very same liability that would append to Fox News or CNN
00:31:34.660 or any website or local news channel or local newspaper.
00:31:39.360 Some believe that stripping those immunities will be sufficient,
00:31:45.220 not just necessary but sufficient, to resolve the issue
00:31:48.460 because then trial lawyers will feast on the carcasses of big tech
00:31:52.060 and bring them to heel.
00:31:54.780 Do you believe that repealing Section 230 would be sufficient
00:31:57.480 to achieve that objective?
00:31:58.780 Yeah, absolutely not.
00:31:59.800 No, I think what's necessary is competition.
00:32:01.840 And there are really three areas, antitrust, Section 230, and privacy laws.
00:32:08.200 All three have to be used to accomplish our goals.
00:32:11.800 But Section 230 is a good place to start.
00:32:15.280 These companies are using the phrase otherwise objectionable as a shield
00:32:18.940 to hide behind and in a way to punish people whose views they disagree with.
00:32:24.540 The real issue you mentioned, you know, CNN and Fox News and others,
00:32:30.780 we don't object when CNN comes up with a story with a particular viewpoint
00:32:35.280 because we have Fox, we have Newsmax, we have One American News,
00:32:39.800 and so many others that can offer a differing viewpoint.
00:32:43.260 We don't object when the Washington Post or the New York Times
00:32:46.260 has a particular viewpoint because the Wall Street Journal,
00:32:49.180 the New York Post will have a different viewpoint
00:32:51.000 and in the marketplace of ideas will have competition.
00:32:54.540 When Google controls 94% of searches in America
00:32:57.820 and changes its algorithm to punish conservatives,
00:33:01.560 and specifically Donald Trump, in June of 2020 and benefit Joe Biden,
00:33:07.820 that hurts because we don't have competition.
00:33:10.000 We don't have five Googles and seven Facebooks
00:33:12.760 to allow the American public, the consumer, to get information they need.
00:33:17.720 Power over freedom is one of the themes we see throughout the book,
00:33:22.040 and it's precisely reflected in that.
00:33:24.300 And we have the power to do something about it.
00:33:26.580 Now, there was legislation that was passed to deal with some of these issues.
00:33:31.340 There were other bills that you and I supported that did not pass the House.
00:33:35.480 So talk about the legislation that did get through the House
00:33:39.480 and what effect you think that will have on the conditions you described and crushed.
00:33:43.500 Sure.
00:33:43.720 There were three bills that passed the House.
00:33:45.340 One was a bill that allowed state attorney generals to file a lawsuit against Big Tech
00:33:50.980 and keep that, an antitrust lawsuit against Big Tech,
00:33:54.980 and keep that lawsuit in their home state. 0.94
00:33:57.320 So what's been happening is a lot of these lawsuits are getting moved to the Northern District of California
00:34:01.920 because they, quote, unquote, have a special expertise in Big Tech.
00:34:06.000 What they have is the backyard of Big Tech.
00:34:09.720 The Northern District of California, Silicon Valley is in that district, a jury pool that works for many of these companies,
00:34:16.560 drawn from that area.
00:34:19.180 So home field advantage, as one might call it.
00:34:21.820 I think that's an appropriate way to call it.
00:34:23.440 So we passed a bill that said that if you sue somebody in Texas because they do business in Texas,
00:34:29.340 that lawsuit can stay in Texas.
00:34:30.760 The second bill that we passed was a bill that actually gives more resources to the Antitrust Division
00:34:37.240 and the Federal Trade Commission.
00:34:38.700 And the third bill was a bill that was sort of added on to get some support in the Senate.
00:34:43.600 It was a bill from Senator Hawley that basically said that if a company has a tie to Communist China,
00:34:51.540 that tie has to be disclosed at the time that a merger is being reviewed.
00:34:57.460 And one of the critiques that some of our colleagues make of our efforts is,
00:35:00.980 well, you know, if you don't want Amazon to be the biggest, baddest,
00:35:04.180 most vertically integrated innovation quashing company on the planet Earth,
00:35:07.880 do you want Alibaba to win?
00:35:09.220 You know, do you want these Chinese companies to supplant U.S. technology?
00:35:15.760 How do you respond to that?
00:35:17.100 Well, they will most assuredly win if we don't encourage competition
00:35:20.920 in the American marketplace because American companies will get big, fat, and lazy,
00:35:25.380 and we will lose ultimately in the marketplace.
00:35:29.060 The way to beat China is not to look more like China. 0.96
00:35:32.220 And that's the problem with this big tech enterprise
00:35:35.800 and a captive government in a lot of ways.
00:35:38.700 To that enterprise, that is the China model.
00:35:40.900 If that's the winning model, China's going to do it better than we are. 0.99
00:35:44.100 And so we have to have a model that allows innovation,
00:35:46.520 that allows development of ideas,
00:35:48.000 and that doesn't permit these companies to engage in anti-competitive behavior.
00:35:51.820 I do not have confidence in the Congress to be able to address these issues
00:35:56.220 to the degree that is necessary given the rising power of big tech.
00:36:01.440 I see an executive branch right now that is not only not helpful,
00:36:06.260 they're in on the grift.
00:36:07.540 And you describe a court system where they're able to play,
00:36:10.360 that previously they were able to play to this geographic advantage.
00:36:14.600 And then similarly, you know, we have these immunities that still exist.
00:36:19.820 So, I mean, people need to understand the diagnosis there.
00:36:22.900 And it brings us to sort of, I think, the fourth leg of the stool,
00:36:25.620 and that's consumer choice and personal choices.
00:36:28.360 And in your case, political choices,
00:36:30.000 because you led on not taking political donations from these companies.
00:36:37.100 You don't use YouTube.
00:36:38.780 You don't utilize these companies in your daily activities.
00:36:43.540 To what extent is consumer choice a powerful tool to drive change?
00:36:48.880 Ask the civil rights leaders of the 50s, 60s, and 70s how powerful it is to boycott racist businesses.
00:36:56.220 Ask people just how powerful it is in their neighborhood when they identify a wrong
00:37:02.560 and they engage in an economic boycott.
00:37:05.260 Boycott, it is very powerful, and it's really what we could do.
00:37:09.040 If nothing else, it makes you feel good.
00:37:11.460 You know, when you don't use Google and you use DuckDuckGo or some other search engine,
00:37:16.120 it may take an extra couple seconds to get the result that you want, but it feels good.
00:37:20.740 And when you don't order your toilet paper for overnight delivery,
00:37:24.800 you drive to a store or you wait two or three days, it feels good.
00:37:29.240 And folks can turn off the tracking devices on their phone and drive these companies crazy.
00:37:35.200 If you're not using Waze or Google Maps to go someplace, turn the tracking device off,
00:37:42.560 and you will deny them of information that they absolutely need that they sell to advertisers.
00:37:49.360 You have a say.
00:37:50.880 You have agency in this.
00:37:52.320 That was remarkable.
00:37:53.060 Well, Speaker McCarthy has talked at some length about data privacy and data portability.
00:38:00.160 He seems to understand the issue intellectually, that the more of our own information we get control over,
00:38:07.340 the more we have agency in the digital world.
00:38:11.360 You know, how do you assess the role of some of those data bills and privacy bills,
00:38:17.040 likely to go through the Energy and Commerce Committee, not our Judiciary Committee,
00:38:20.160 but do you think they can make a dent?
00:38:21.560 I do, and let's just describe what data portability is.
00:38:25.860 In 1996, when the Telecommunications Act passed, Congress gave consumers the ability to take their cell phone number
00:38:34.800 from AT&T to Verizon or Verizon to T-Mobile,
00:38:38.840 and that opened up the marketplace where people weren't concerned about changing
00:38:43.620 and looking for a better plan and a less expensive plan.
00:38:46.740 What we're talking about is when you search for something on Google, you own that information,
00:38:52.120 and you can take that information to another search engine,
00:38:55.220 and you can get paid for that information as the owner of that information.
00:39:00.100 And that portability is essential to opening up the marketplace and allowing competition in this area.
00:39:05.920 I think that the Speaker understands that.
00:39:09.520 I think a lot of other Republicans understand it, and hopefully we can move some of that legislation.
00:39:13.800 And from a structural standpoint, it converts the user from the product to the client.
00:39:22.540 Absolutely.
00:39:23.540 You know, in a lot of ways right now, technology is cheap to access because you aren't the one being served.
00:39:30.040 You are quite literally the product.
00:39:32.240 Data is being extracted from you, sold elsewhere, and we've even heard liberal commentators like John Oliver
00:39:40.600 talk about the importance of data privacy and limiting the extent to which all of our searches
00:39:46.480 and all of our places we go for barbecue can't be just stripped and then placed into the marketplace
00:39:54.140 without not only not our consent, not even our knowledge.
00:39:57.120 And these executives at these companies have said publicly, on the record,
00:40:03.080 I can tell you what you're going to think before you even think it.
00:40:06.520 That kind of arrogance is scary, but it's accurate.
00:40:09.580 And we need to make sure that as consumers, we're getting a benefit for that information.
00:40:15.300 So I got to know, are you selling crushed on Amazon?
00:40:19.120 Absolutely.
00:40:20.100 Right.
00:40:20.500 So you haven't totally decamped.
00:40:22.240 No, no, no.
00:40:22.840 I don't use Amazon.
00:40:23.800 I don't buy a single product from Amazon, but if Amazon wants to promote this book,
00:40:30.340 I'm all in favor of having them promote the book and having people read about what an evil company Amazon is.
00:40:36.280 Yeah, I don't know that they'll be promoting it, and I don't know that their algorithm is going to drive people to your book,
00:40:41.620 but it is an interesting commentary on the market power that a company like Amazon has.
00:40:47.660 I mean, if anybody writes a book, you're going to get about 75% to 85% of your sales through Amazon.
00:40:54.040 That's how people purchase this type of material to learn more.
00:40:57.340 So even as we're critiquing Amazon, it is hard to unwind from it.
00:41:01.620 As you and I are having this discussion, it is being live streamed over many of the companies that you're dictating.
00:41:07.500 And so I believe that the development of alternate pathways and tools, DuckDuckGo, we really promote Rumble as a way for folks to get video content.
00:41:20.100 You almost have to stay on multiple battlefields so that the argument can hopefully get through to some extent given the tremendous headwinds we face.
00:41:28.900 Well, we can't get off the grid and try to convince a majority of Americans that we're right.
00:41:34.020 And I also have an iPhone because I really don't have too much choice outside of the two major phone manufacturers to make that decision.
00:41:44.620 So I think there are things that we have to do practically.
00:41:48.580 But when we have a choice, we should absolutely make that choice.
00:41:52.300 It's a quick read.
00:41:53.700 You can knock it out on a good weekend afternoon.
00:41:57.100 You're going to get history.
00:41:58.120 You're going to get law.
00:41:59.720 You're going to get politics.
00:42:01.240 And you're going to get great information about technology and telecommunications.
00:42:05.440 Ken Buck, thank you so much for writing this book, for being a warrior in the cause, for free speech, and for joining me on Firebrand.
00:42:11.900 Thank you, Matt.
00:42:28.120 Thank you.
00:42:28.640 Thank you.
00:42:51.740 Thank you.