The Anchormen Show with Matt Gaetz - August 07, 2025


The Anchormen Show Ep 47 - System Update w⧸ Glenn Greenwald

Topics
Trump foreign policy doctrine Russiagate conspiracy theory Russiagate conspiracy
Hosted by
Matt Gaetz
Guests
Glenn Greenwald
Mentioned
Donald Trump Glenn Greenwald Lula Vladimir Putin Bolsonaro Joe Biden Obama Hillary Clinton Tucker Carlson Mike Huckabee Marais Marjorie Taylor Greene George W. Bush Robert Mueller Dan Ball Russiagate Netanyahu Victoria Nuland Victoria Nguyen Howard Lutnick and 20 more
The Anchormen Show Episode 45 - Kill the Boer w⧸ Ernst Roets The Anchormen Show Ep 49 - In Love with Love w⧸Aysia Alexander

Episode Stats


Length

51 minutes

Words per minute

187.02

Word count

9,716

Sentence count

558

Harmful content

Misogyny

3

sentences flagged

Toxicity

16

sentences flagged

Hate speech

43

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Glenn Greenwald joins me to talk about his new podcast, System Update on Rumble, and why he thinks we should be worried about what's going on around the world and in our own foreign policy circles. We talk about the Trump administration's foreign policy doctrine, the influence of the deep state, and the impact of deep state influence on our foreign policy.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 Now, it's time for the Anchorman Podcast with Matt Gaetz and Dan Ball.
00:00:18.980 Welcome back to another episode of our show, Anchorman, and I am joined today by a real 0.97
00:00:25.100 expert in what's going on around the world.
00:00:27.280 Glenn Greenwald is one of the original founders of The Intercept and now is the host of System
00:00:31.560 Update on Rumble.
00:00:32.940 Glenn, thank you so much for joining me.
00:00:34.800 I want to cover what's going on in a lot of different places, but really I wanted to begin
00:00:40.000 with how you view just the Trump doctrine as we encounter it in this second term, because
00:00:47.340 it does feel like it has a different energy than we had in Trump 1 with people like Mattis
00:00:53.880 and Tillerson having a real large role in the shaping of that policy.
00:00:59.660 Now it seems very, you know, Howard Lutnick, Scott Besson, Donald Trump, economic, you know,
00:01:06.260 it's economic engagement driven.
00:01:08.540 But how would you describe, I guess, that difference and then the Trump foreign policy doctrine as
00:01:15.440 we encounter it in 2025?
00:01:19.260 Yeah, there's no question that the Trump administration and its current iteration 2.0 is very different
00:01:25.780 in a lot of ways than the first iteration.
00:01:28.700 I think there are a lot of ways in which that's a good thing.
00:01:30.660 I heard from the Trump campaign, people close to the Trump circle all throughout 2024 and
00:01:35.400 into the transition that they believe, and I totally agree, that one of the big problems
00:01:40.320 with the first administration was that so many people had infiltrated it, had contaminated
00:01:44.840 it, who pretended to be on board with the America First ideology, but in fact were sworn
00:01:49.480 enemies to it and were really there to undermine and subvert everything he was doing.
00:01:53.480 And I think they got away with that because he was very new to Washington.
00:01:57.100 He had never been in an elected office before.
00:01:59.100 A lot of people surrounding him didn't really understand Washington maybe as well as they
00:02:02.840 should have.
00:02:03.200 I mean, he was relying on Jared Kushner and his daughter.
00:02:05.260 And I think they did, in a lot of ways, subvert what he was doing, and they were determined
00:02:09.860 not to let that happen again.
00:02:11.100 And they clearly came in prepared to ensure that Trump is the leader of the administration.
00:02:16.600 He gives the orders and people carry it out.
00:02:18.380 They selected people who were willing to do that.
00:02:20.480 So we actually have an elected president who's making decisions for the executive branch, which
00:02:23.960 I personally think is good.
00:02:25.200 I think it's pretty dangerous when you have generals and other national security officials
00:02:30.460 just going off on their own, doing what they want, and even violating orders of
00:02:33.480 the president.
00:02:33.900 I think the problem, Matt, is that the reason I was so interested in the Trump campaign beginning
00:02:40.580 in 2016, despite it causing a lot of rifts with a lot of former viewers and readers of
00:02:46.360 mine, was because of the America First ideology, which I took seriously.
00:02:50.320 The idea that, look, it's time to prioritize American citizens and their interests, which
00:02:55.220 should be pretty basic, but it hasn't been, which means battling big corporate power, big
00:03:01.300 banks, big multinational corporations, re-instilling the notion that we have an industry in the
00:03:07.500 United States, that we have jobs in the United States, but also that we're not going to go
00:03:10.920 to war for or continue to finance the wars of foreign countries.
00:03:14.700 I mean, this was so central for me, at least, in terms of what the promise of the Trump ideology
00:03:21.160 has been.
00:03:21.760 And in so many ways, we're seeing so many violations of that, particularly in foreign
00:03:26.120 policy, but also it's spilling over in a lot of ways into domestic policy, free speech
00:03:30.460 as well.
00:03:30.940 And there was the moment when he wins the South Carolina primary back in 2016, where the veil
00:03:37.800 is pulled back on this theory that Republican operatives and Republican candidates have been
00:03:43.420 told that you have to support this Liz Cheney version of foreign policy in order to have any
00:03:49.720 credibility.
00:03:50.660 Otherwise, you're an outcast.
00:03:52.640 You're someone that is derided regularly.
00:03:55.720 And Trump stood up and called George W. Bush a war criminal and walked in and won South Carolina.
00:04:01.040 And that was that.
00:04:02.320 And it was a remarkable reshaping.
00:04:04.620 But one of the reasons that condition you described of infiltration occurred is this highly
00:04:12.380 intricate credentialing system that interventionists have developed in Washington, D.C.
00:04:18.440 And I never understood it until I got there and really started to pay attention.
00:04:22.020 But so much money is spent on these think tanks to get people, you know, vice president of
00:04:28.820 public policy for Eurasia titles and to endow professorships where people could say, oh,
00:04:35.340 there I was at, you know, Georgetown or some other, you know, the School of Foreign Service
00:04:39.880 and develop this lecturing credential.
00:04:41.820 And when you weigh that against the life experiences of a lot of people who are foreign policy realists,
00:04:48.300 it gets challenging.
00:04:50.560 And that weighed heavily on the first Trump term.
00:04:55.140 I think people saw through that really effectively on a lot of fronts this last go around.
00:05:01.760 But it is a condition we still encounter.
00:05:04.620 What do you think the antidote is to that?
00:05:06.960 There are all these, like, you know, Wilson Center type entities that do such a good job
00:05:14.160 credentialing.
00:05:14.860 But if someone thinks thoughtfully about maybe wanting to reserve America's focus to America's
00:05:21.680 interests, they don't get those opportunities.
00:05:25.680 Yeah, that's why it's so important and so interesting to speak to somebody who was in the kind of
00:05:29.320 bowels of Washington as you were and got there with a certain set of ideas about how Washington
00:05:34.060 works and then actually saw the real way that it works and are willing to speak openly about
00:05:38.620 it.
00:05:38.800 It's not that common.
00:05:40.500 I think the whole world of think tanks, it's so opaque and mysterious to most Americans never
00:05:45.460 think about think tanks, don't really care about think tanks when it's such a crucial
00:05:50.360 part of the incentive scheme in Washington.
00:05:53.340 I remember when Nikki Haley resigned from the Trump administration as the U.S. ambassador to
00:05:59.320 the United Nations in the first Trump term, and she got extremely rich in the immediate
00:06:05.660 aftermath of that.
00:06:06.680 So made something like $8 million, paid off a lot of debt she was in.
00:06:10.500 And we investigated, like other journalists did, to find out how she was making that money.
00:06:14.840 And one of the major ways was that she got hired by think tanks who are funded massively
00:06:20.340 by huge pro-Israel interests, pro-war interests, the kind of people who get appointed into key
00:06:28.480 positions, whether it's the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, they have kind of a
00:06:31.500 shadow government.
00:06:33.020 And so it's a two-way system.
00:06:34.620 On the one hand, they do a very good job because of how much money they have in being able to
00:06:39.000 sort of attract the people who seem to Washington lawmakers or White House officials, like they're
00:06:43.760 the real experts.
00:06:44.880 And they're only there because of their shared ideology, this sort of bipartisan consensus that
00:06:48.920 they believe in.
00:06:50.160 And then there's also a second incentive, which is, you know, that if you leave government
00:06:53.740 or you leave Congress, as long as you did your service and serve that agenda, there's
00:06:58.740 all kinds of sinecures waiting for you where you can get very rich by doing that.
00:07:04.760 And, you know, I think on the one hand, there's all this progress that has been made in breaking
00:07:10.300 this, you know, decades-long bipartisan consensus that has been so detrimental to our country.
00:07:15.180 The rise of independent media has obviously been crucial.
00:07:18.160 The fact that there are all kinds of members of Congress now on both the left and the right
00:07:23.460 who are deviating from it and making the case for it.
00:07:26.160 There's obviously a left and right anti-establishment furor of the kind that I don't think we have
00:07:31.220 seen for decades in the United States.
00:07:34.040 The problem, though, and it's so true, is if you look at Washington, the two parties in
00:07:37.700 Congress still basically work more or less the same way.
00:07:41.160 They're really not responsive to these changes in public opinion.
00:07:43.520 And that's because what official Washington has is this kind of locked-in system to force
00:07:49.200 people to serve the agenda of moneyed interest in Washington and really not very much listen
00:07:54.100 to or care about the actual constituents who elected them.
00:07:56.920 Yeah.
00:07:57.160 It is a binary test.
00:07:59.740 Are you willing to go along with the grift?
00:08:02.700 And if you're willing to go along with the grift, then that presents in a variety of forms.
00:08:06.780 You're willing to go say that bills do things that they don't actually do.
00:08:09.920 You're able to kind of, like, falsely avoid blame on things like spending.
00:08:14.940 You're able to, like, take these just bogus intel briefings they give you and then walk
00:08:20.640 out acting like you've seen the Rosetta Stone.
00:08:23.200 And if folks go along with that, you're right.
00:08:25.960 There's a very lucrative incentive structure.
00:08:28.420 One member told me who had played the game and got a sweet gig that being a fellow with
00:08:35.240 a think tank as a former member of Congress was just like being a congressman, but you
00:08:41.540 make four times the money because you have a big staff that's paid for.
00:08:45.460 You get all your travel expenses paid.
00:08:47.420 You go around giving interesting speeches to people who want to hear you talk.
00:08:51.200 You give media interviews.
00:08:52.940 And instead of making, you know, $1.72, you can make like $600,000.
00:08:56.940 And so many of them do.
00:08:58.380 And then what that means is those folks own them in the short term.
00:09:03.140 And if I'll put it this plainly, if you did not have defense contractors, the interests
00:09:09.360 of foreign governments and a select group of Fortune 100 corporate interests, think tanks
00:09:15.240 wouldn't even be a thing.
00:09:16.760 You wouldn't even know about them.
00:09:18.080 You would never, never hear about them.
00:09:20.380 But now they are providing this faux credentialism and also a lot of grass tops imagery around
00:09:28.440 support for U.S. intervention and a variety of these conflicts.
00:09:31.560 So the first one I want to talk to you about, obviously, is in Gaza, where Israel is now saying
00:09:36.420 they want to occupy Gaza, which is the most predictable thing after the way they have waged 0.99
00:09:42.560 this war.
00:09:43.420 But is it wrong, Glenn, that there's a part of me that's like, you know what?
00:09:47.060 You guys want to go be an occupying force?
00:09:49.220 Take the baton and freaking run with it, because we have endured that in the early aughts in
00:09:55.960 Iraq and Afghanistan to tragic consequences. 0.69
00:09:58.580 Even Russia got the heck out of Syria. 0.97
00:10:01.740 You had Iran pulling back from some of their proxy forces.
00:10:04.580 So if Israel wants to go be the neighborhood crime watch of Gaza City, like the block captain 0.85
00:10:11.500 of Gaza, won't they kind of get their punishment just from the nature of that experience?
00:10:18.780 Or is it going to have to come with all of this shame over the atrocities that people
00:10:23.400 have witnessed?
00:10:26.140 Yeah, well, first of all, I think there's a big question.
00:10:28.340 I mean, I would look at it differently, perhaps if it weren't for the fact the United States
00:10:31.760 government and therefore American workers and American taxpayers were going to pay for
00:10:34.920 the whole thing.
00:10:36.200 You know, we send four billion dollars a year minimum automatic to Israel and in the deal
00:10:40.780 negotiated by President Obama on his way out in 2016 with Netanyahu.
00:10:44.300 It's a 10 year deal.
00:10:45.440 So it's going to be up for renewal in 2026.
00:10:47.860 I'm sure that number is going to increase.
00:10:49.220 But then on top of that, we send billions and billions and billions more.
00:10:52.900 We send 17 billion dollars extra every time Israel decides they want a new war.
00:10:57.560 And on top of that, we deploy our own military assets and put our service members in harm's
00:11:02.620 way in that region to protect Israel as well from the anger that they're provoking.
00:11:06.600 And so the cost of the United States and American taxpayers is so massive.
00:11:10.840 And if they go and occupy Gaza, they can't do that without us paying for it. 0.89
00:11:14.700 And of course, we're going to end up paying for it.
00:11:16.260 Trump has pretty much made that clear.
00:11:18.180 Now, having said that, I think it is interesting to note that the most vocal opponents of this
00:11:23.800 new plan to go and occupy Gaza, and it's really not a new plan.
00:11:26.640 If you listen to Israeli leaders from the start after October 7, the hostages and dismantling
00:11:32.420 Hamas, these were pretext. 0.89
00:11:33.720 That's their WMD, their 9-11 attack. 0.96
00:11:35.840 The real goal that they always had was they want, a lot of them believe in the idea that
00:11:41.700 Gaza and the West Bank belong to Israel, even though the entire international community is
00:11:45.520 against that.
00:11:46.360 The U.S. government's position for decades has been, we want a two-state solution.
00:11:51.040 That's no longer a possibility.
00:11:53.120 They want to move those people in Gaza out, the Palestinians and the Muslims and the Arab 1.00
00:11:58.220 Christians, and replace them with Jews, with Israeli Jews that are going to rule that 1.00
00:12:03.000 region as well as annex the West Bank. 0.72
00:12:05.000 That was always the plan.
00:12:06.520 But the interesting thing is, it's the IDF, you know, like the generals and the IDF officials
00:12:10.920 who are saying, if we go in and occupy Gaza, it's going to, first of all, it's going to 0.96
00:12:16.460 be a death trap.
00:12:17.560 You can occupy it, but there's still Hamas there. 0.94
00:12:20.720 There's armed people there.
00:12:21.740 They're obviously going to fight a guerrilla war like we saw in Iraq, and they're going
00:12:25.020 to have to deal with that for years.
00:12:27.000 And then on top of that, there's no plan.
00:12:29.060 Like, what are you going to do with the people that there's still, well, there was 2.2 million
00:12:32.840 people when this began.
00:12:33.720 Maybe there's 1.8, 1.9 million now.
00:12:36.440 So you're right.
00:12:37.200 If they do that, they're going to be probably harming themselves.
00:12:40.800 But the thing that I worry about, Matt, is that, you know, they have demonstrated that
00:12:45.180 they have no regard for life of the people in Gaza.
00:12:47.700 They don't see Gazans or Palestinians more broadly as human.
00:12:51.580 The number of deaths and the starvation has demonstrated that.
00:12:54.700 And obviously, if they go in and occupy, it's going to entail massive amounts of more death.
00:13:00.020 They're going to just be killing randomly because they are going to be in danger, IDF
00:13:03.780 soldiers.
00:13:04.260 And they're already fighting multiple front wars for several years now.
00:13:07.820 Huge numbers of them have PTSD.
00:13:11.360 A lot of them won't go back to fighting.
00:13:13.780 It's an army that has really been put through the wringer.
00:13:16.480 And to ask them now to govern Gaza, the way the United States has to govern, you know,
00:13:21.260 Fallujah and the Sunni Triangle and all the places in Iraq for all those years, you're 0.99
00:13:26.340 right.
00:13:26.700 I mean, that is not in Israel's interest. 0.86
00:13:28.340 But I worry more about the impact on the United States and Americans as well.
00:13:34.860 The way those funding battles work in Congress is just debasing for so many of these folks
00:13:41.460 who represent districts that are poor, that need their Congress member to care about them.
00:13:47.240 And the way we do this with some of these touchstone international issues, Glenn, like
00:13:52.040 I was shocked.
00:13:53.800 Like there was a time period where every week we had to pass another resolution about the
00:13:57.960 Uyghurs. 1.00
00:13:58.460 And I don't mean to like, you know, say that their plight is not a meaningful one, but it
00:14:04.840 just felt like incessant.
00:14:06.560 And then with Israel, there was a time period where almost every day we were passing a different 0.94
00:14:11.060 version of a condemnation of the BDS movement.
00:14:14.520 And I don't know, I'm not a fan of the BDS movement.
00:14:17.960 I don't want to participate in it.
00:14:19.540 But did Mike Huckabee become the leader of it when they tried to shut down the Zionist 1.00
00:14:23.760 Christian tours?
00:14:24.780 Because I saw these statements from Mike Huckabee where they're shutting down the Zionist Christian
00:14:30.160 tours with this Jewish supremacy ideology.
00:14:35.160 And he says that the way he's going to react is that Christians should no longer plan to Israel.
00:14:39.920 They should boycott their plan to Israel, that American donors should stop funding groups
00:14:45.440 in Israel.
00:14:46.080 So divest.
00:14:47.420 And then he was going to withhold sanction or he was going to sanction by withholding
00:14:50.560 the visas of people in Israel who wanted to come to the United States.
00:14:54.140 So like what chapter of the book are we in when Israel loses Mike Huckabee?
00:14:59.240 Well, and also, you know, the Israeli military murdered an American citizen in the West Bank
00:15:07.820 as they do with quite a lot of frequency.
00:15:11.680 And Mike Huckabee actually denounced that vehemently and called it a terrorist act, which
00:15:15.720 obviously is a word that typically only gets applied to Israel's enemies and not to Israel.
00:15:20.140 It was really the settlers who did the murders. 0.73
00:15:23.060 But the IDF is there to back them up and there's no accountability.
00:15:26.880 But the thing is, Matt, like this is what I think is I'm kind of amazed at what I'm seeing,
00:15:31.920 even though on the in one way, I also don't find it surprising because of everything we're
00:15:38.200 discussing.
00:15:39.440 This is a movement, the Trump movement, that decided to call itself America first.
00:15:44.260 And the argument was that we have been financing and funding and arming wars all over the globe
00:15:50.780 that really don't have anything to do with us.
00:15:53.220 And as a result, we need to reprioritize how we work in Washington so that the American
00:15:58.660 people and their communities that are falling apart and their and our industry that has been,
00:16:03.260 you know, deindustrialized all throughout the country and fentanyl and immigrants and all 1.00
00:16:08.440 the problems that is making are making the United States fall apart.
00:16:11.400 We need to focus on that instead.
00:16:14.060 And now you have the summer recess in Congress, which.
00:16:19.540 Well, we can get into why if you want, there's the recess.
00:16:22.080 I'm sure you've covered this, but I don't know if you saw you probably did.
00:16:25.440 But like 30 members of the caucus, you know, usually usually the summer recess is the idea
00:16:33.120 of it is you go back to your district since none of them barely have anything to do with
00:16:36.500 their district.
00:16:36.880 So it's like one time they get to go back, touch the ground there. 0.90
00:16:39.680 They have clown hall meetings.
00:16:40.960 They hear from their constituents about what they're thinking, about what they want.
00:16:44.500 It's sometimes even raucous because people are upset and that's an important thing for 0.85
00:16:47.460 them to go to hear.
00:16:48.720 They got on a plane on an AIPAC organized and paid for journey to Israel.
00:16:55.400 And that's how they're spending their recess.
00:16:57.580 It's like, and there's statistics that show that members of Congress make pilgrimage to
00:17:03.840 Israel more than every country in Europe and Africa combined.
00:17:10.520 They're constantly in Israel.
00:17:12.560 And, you know, I think we're also getting to the point now where a lot of people are starting
00:17:16.760 to ask, like, wait a minute.
00:17:18.000 We were promised America first.
00:17:19.380 Why is every politician that I'm listening to constantly in Israel?
00:17:23.460 The leadership pushes you.
00:17:24.620 I'll tell you why.
00:17:25.680 I went.
00:17:26.300 I went on that AIPAC trip.
00:17:28.000 I went on subsequent trips.
00:17:29.560 And there is an actual downward pressure from the leadership and even the committee chairs.
00:17:35.260 Like if you're on the Foreign Affairs Committee, if you're on the Armed Services Committee, if
00:17:39.180 you're on the Intelligence Committee, there's like an expectation that you go there and some
00:17:43.280 sort of like congressional hodge.
00:17:46.500 And I remember being at the, I'll never go back.
00:17:49.020 I was at the King David Hotel and I rolled back to my room unexpectedly when the rest of
00:17:54.360 the group was still on some planned activity.
00:17:56.440 And there was some dude in my room.
00:17:57.840 I'm like, hey man, what are you doing here?
00:17:59.540 And he acted like he was associated with the hotel and taking an inventory, but had no clipboard.
00:18:05.340 And so, yeah, there's a lot of reasons why they want members of Congress over there. 0.59
00:18:11.620 And it is ideologically to steep them in this notion that the protection of Israel is of
00:18:16.940 great import to people in America, but it's really not that important to voters.
00:18:22.760 And that is becoming more clear on the right and left.
00:18:25.720 So like we've talked about the actual policy.
00:18:28.580 Let's just get into the raw politics.
00:18:30.520 I maintain that the true legacy of Netanyahu is that during his control of Israel, he has 0.73
00:18:37.820 successfully made this a politically divisive issue on the American right and left.
00:18:42.900 And like when I was growing up, it was a pretty bipartisan thing to have people generally supportive
00:18:49.220 of a friendly relationship between the United States and the only democracy, democracy in
00:18:54.320 the region.
00:18:55.020 And now on the left, it is a major issue in primaries.
00:19:00.540 Do you think it will be on the right?
00:19:02.180 Are we in the cycle where in 2028, maybe on the Republican stage, maybe on the Democrat
00:19:11.080 stage, maybe both, like you're going to see definitively anti-Israel candidates running
00:19:16.400 for president saying, nominate me to lead this party and I won't make us subservient to Israel.
00:19:23.760 And nobody else on the stage will say that.
00:19:26.200 Like, it has to happen, Matt.
00:19:28.340 It has to happen.
00:19:29.220 I mean, I'd like to see what happens if anybody who says that actually gets close to the presidency
00:19:34.740 in the United States.
00:19:36.940 There are going to be a lot of very powerful interests who are going to be very frightened
00:19:39.880 if that happens.
00:19:41.120 But the reason why I say this has to happen is because the polling data that you referenced
00:19:45.400 is extremely clear.
00:19:47.480 Every single demographic group in the United States has now, as a majority, views Israel
00:19:53.880 unfavorably, except for conservatives over the age of 50 or Republicans over the age of
00:19:59.380 50, which are, they're still clinging on to this sort of, you know, they've been indoctrinated
00:20:02.940 going back to the Cold War about Israel.
00:20:05.060 But young conservatives in particular are, the steep downward is very, very steep.
00:20:12.320 It's very, the incline downward.
00:20:13.460 And you're obviously seeing major, major voices in the conservative movement, in the Trump
00:20:19.760 movement, Marjorie Taylor Greene being one, you being another, Tucker Carlson, Candace
00:20:23.840 Owen, Steve Bannon.
00:20:25.740 I could go on and on and on.
00:20:26.860 You even have people at the Daily Wire now, like when the Israelis attacked a Catholic church,
00:20:31.440 you know, on purpose, saying, wait a minute, like, I'm going to get off this train now.
00:20:36.380 So there's only so long that you can sustain a gigantic breach in public opinion, on the
00:20:42.220 one hand, and what the members of Congress do, and especially in a primary, if you have
00:20:47.320 growing sentiment that I wouldn't even call it anti-Israel, I would call it more, like,
00:20:52.240 opposed to the idea that we're supposed to be tied at the hip to this foreign country.
00:20:57.220 And, you know, younger conservatives have not been steeped in this.
00:21:00.500 Israel really hasn't been talked about for the last 10, 15 years.
00:21:03.080 This is really the first time a lot of people are getting a look, not just at Israel, but
00:21:06.760 at U.S., how the U.S. serves Israel.
00:21:10.120 And it's really a shocking thing.
00:21:11.480 People are watching babies blowing up every day, babies starving, and the Israelis doing 0.97
00:21:15.800 what they're doing in Gaza, but also bombing Lebanon and Yemen and Syria, and then cajoling 0.94
00:21:21.060 us into helping them bomb Iran. 0.90
00:21:22.960 It seems like it's the only thing that the D.C. class talks about.
00:21:26.460 And as a Jew, I actually do worry about how this is going to spark anti-Semitism in the
00:21:34.180 sense that people are going to start to wondering, like, why is our government so controlled?
00:21:37.920 Why is it so dedicated to this one country?
00:21:41.140 And also, I just want to say, Matt, because in some ways, this is the most important thing
00:21:44.020 to me.
00:21:44.920 As you know, I was very vocal in denouncing big tech censorship, Biden administration
00:21:50.120 censorship.
00:21:50.960 I absolutely supported that lawsuit to sue the Biden administration to bring it to the Supreme
00:21:54.640 Court, that it was a full frontal assault on the First Amendment to coerce and threaten
00:21:58.780 big tech companies to remove dissent on COVID, Ukraine, the 2020 election.
00:22:02.760 It's why I'm at Rumble, because they're a free speech platform.
00:22:05.260 But what we're seeing now is a full frontal assault on free speech in defense of Israel. 0.86
00:22:11.080 I mean, the Trump administration is demanding a radical expansion of hate speech codes to wildly
00:22:17.920 expand what anti-Semitism is under this new definition called the International Holocaust
00:22:22.540 Remembrance Act, so that now on major college campuses—
00:22:26.680 That definition is bonkers.
00:22:26.740 That definition is totally bonkers.
00:22:28.580 That definition—
00:22:29.680 You cannot—you're barred from saying—this is a—you're barred—okay, this is a Trump
00:22:35.240 presidency that was devoted to restoring free speech and opposing censorship.
00:22:39.300 You are now barred from saying that you think that what the Israelis are doing in Gaza
00:22:46.200 is similar to what the Germans did in World War II.
00:22:48.860 You can say that about any other country.
00:22:50.860 You can compare the United States government to Nazism. 0.61
00:22:53.000 You can compare any other state that you—any other country you want on the earth.
00:22:56.440 Just you cannot say it about Israel.
00:22:58.320 You cannot say that you think Israel is an intrinsically racist endeavor because it's
00:23:03.440 built on the idea of Jewish supremacy.
00:23:05.800 You can call the United States racist because it, you know, genocided Native Americans or whatever,
00:23:10.880 or slavery. 0.95
00:23:11.640 You're free to say that about your own country.
00:23:13.260 You just can't say that about this.
00:23:14.340 Or China, you can say it about Iran, Peru, Indonesia, whoever you want.
00:23:18.960 Just not about Israel.
00:23:20.460 And you can also not say that you believe that the Bible teaches that the Jews played
00:23:24.440 a major role in the death of Christ, which is a teaching that many, many Christians for
00:23:28.540 two centuries now have believed.
00:23:30.400 I'm not saying you have to agree with any of those views, but how can you be banned,
00:23:35.040 punished?
00:23:35.540 How can this be off-limits?
00:23:36.460 You'll be fired if you're on the faculty.
00:23:38.140 You'll be expelled if you're a student for expressing any of those views.
00:23:41.280 There's a stranglehold on free speech in the name of this foreign country, not even to 1.00
00:23:44.300 protect our own people, but in the name of protecting this foreign country. 0.92
00:23:48.720 When I was trying to get senators to vote to confirm me, they were giving me heat on
00:23:53.480 this because I voted against some adherents in the House to this definition for those
00:23:59.620 reasons you just laid out.
00:24:01.020 Not because I want to give any comfort to the anti-Semites, but because we've just gone
00:24:06.140 through what we've gone through with the Biden administration, where they get an inch
00:24:10.160 and take a mile on censorship.
00:24:12.420 And you look at a definition like that, and it's almost meme-ish.
00:24:16.600 You're like, oh, how many products made in Israel do I need to have in my house to prove 1.00
00:24:21.920 that I am not a boycotter?
00:24:24.760 What is a sufficient amount of lamb's blood to pay it on the door with my allegiance to
00:24:30.980 Israel? 0.53
00:24:31.780 And I'm sitting here getting grilled by the senator on this, who ultimately said they would
00:24:35.280 have voted to confirm me.
00:24:36.560 But I'm thinking to myself, who is having you ask these questions?
00:24:39.420 From some Midwestern state where this can't be central to what your constituents want
00:24:46.780 in an attorney general, but it is so in the forefront of their mind.
00:24:50.420 And I'll conclude our discussion on the Israel thing with this.
00:24:53.680 You can't have this kind of a disconnect where the political representatives are so beholden
00:25:00.240 to an ideology or any viewpoint that is becoming increasingly toxic to the body politic at an
00:25:07.320 exponential rate.
00:25:08.940 This system will not allow that to hold.
00:25:11.820 And you will start to see people emerge and say, vote for me because I will not betray you
00:25:16.880 in this way.
00:25:17.600 And when that happens, I think that, like Glenn said, some really powerful people are going
00:25:21.000 to be pretty nervous about it.
00:25:23.180 I'm so excited when we get our Merriweather Farm shipments in.
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00:25:29.180 Now, I take it out of the package, let it get down to room temperature.
00:25:33.200 All I've got on here is a little salt, a little pepper, and then a little avocado oil.
00:25:37.520 And then I've had my pan preheating with a little oil.
00:25:46.640 Head to merriweatherfarms.com and enter promo code MATTG for 15% off your first order.
00:25:52.600 One of my other favorite things to talk about is the Russia hoax.
00:25:56.320 I really feel like I peaked during the Russia hoax.
00:25:59.060 And I remember those days where Paul Ryan and Trey Gowdy were telling us to trust Robert
00:26:06.000 Mueller.
00:26:06.700 We should just hope Donald Trump hadn't committed any crimes.
00:26:10.280 And if people just started to ask kind of basic questions about the Russia hoax, like,
00:26:14.420 well, where did this dossier come from?
00:26:16.720 And how are the mechanisms of intelligence collection being validated?
00:26:24.680 If you ask those questions, it was like, you're Vladimir Putin's lawyer. 0.91
00:26:28.520 You're a traitor to the country.
00:26:30.720 And now, I mean, I think history is going to reflect on this and say, you had this batch 0.99
00:26:36.000 of people in the Obama administration that were very dedicated to the Russia hoax, you
00:26:39.740 know, before and after they ever found the first fact that could have been tied to it.
00:26:43.800 And then, you know, you had a reckoning thereafter where during the Trump administration, some
00:26:50.220 people who hadn't spoken up previously feel like they've got enough of a yellow brick road
00:26:54.640 to have their views platformed with their criticism of that effort.
00:26:58.760 I think that's kind of how it washes. 0.93
00:27:01.200 But what's just crazy is the way those of us who ask questions were vilified.
00:27:07.700 Like, you were among those voices.
00:27:10.180 How do you bring the new revelations into perspective?
00:27:13.800 I think the new revelations are helpful to make people who still have residual doubts
00:27:21.460 about whether Russiagate was a gigantic fraud and hoax perpetrated by the CIA and the FBI
00:27:25.680 to manipulate our elections.
00:27:27.060 It's now a little bit easier to convince more people that there's no doubt that that's exactly
00:27:31.160 what happened, that the CIA and the FBI manufactured a complete lie and then fed it to the Washington
00:27:37.760 Post and the New York Times and NBC News.
00:27:40.320 And they gave themselves pollsters for it and celebrated themselves.
00:27:43.280 And it led to a special counsel.
00:27:44.840 But, you know, Matt, the thing is, like, you could tell from the beginning the whole thing
00:27:48.940 was a fraud.
00:27:49.920 It never made any sense.
00:27:51.660 Why would the Kremlin have to conspire with Donald Trump and his campaign officials to hack into
00:27:56.680 the DNC and Podesta's email in order to give them to WikiLeaks and have stuff that's incriminating
00:28:00.360 about Hillary Clinton be published?
00:28:02.280 Why couldn't they just do it on their own?
00:28:04.400 There was also never any proof that Putin ordered it, that he did it in order to help get Donald
00:28:09.260 Trump elected.
00:28:09.860 Nobody thought Donald Trump was going to have a chance against Hillary Clinton.
00:28:14.280 And so there was all this huge evidentiary holes in it from the start, on top of which
00:28:19.740 the way the story was being presented to the American public is exactly how so many lies
00:28:24.960 got disseminated to the public.
00:28:26.880 So many other times, the CIA and the FBI whisper to their favorite servants of The
00:28:32.440 Washington Post and The New York Times, demanding anonymity, which they then get, the things
00:28:36.680 they want the American people to hear.
00:28:38.360 The Washington Post, The New York Times, NBC News, they all go around repeating it.
00:28:41.720 And especially because they were so unified in their hatred of Trump, they were absolutely
00:28:45.380 determined to have this be the thing that destroys him.
00:28:49.040 And no evidence is needed by any of these so-called journalists.
00:28:52.620 When journalistic skepticism of the CIA and the FBI is as foundational to being a journalist
00:28:57.500 as you can possibly get, they had none of it.
00:28:59.780 And it wasn't just this time, so many other times as well.
00:29:02.400 But the other thing, Matt, is that the whole conspiracy theory from the start was basically
00:29:08.780 composed of two claims.
00:29:10.500 One, that Trump officials conspired, colluded, and collaborated with the Kremlin to break
00:29:17.060 into the emails of the DNC and John Podesta.
00:29:20.640 And then the other one was even more important, I think, to this conspiracy theory was that
00:29:24.700 Vladimir Putin had blackmail power over Donald Trump, sexually, financially, personally, as
00:29:29.460 Nancy Pelosi would always say.
00:29:31.200 And as a result, if Donald Trump got elected, it would basically be Putin who was running
00:29:35.300 our country.
00:29:36.360 OK, that was the core conspiracy theory.
00:29:38.520 Trump gets into office.
00:29:39.440 And the two policies that he implements toward Russia are, number one, to flood Ukraine with 0.97
00:29:45.120 lethal offensive arms, which Obama didn't want to do, but Trump was pressured to do
00:29:49.220 it to prove he wasn't a Russian agent.
00:29:50.720 He flooded Ukraine with offensive arms, like the most threatening thing you could do to 0.88
00:29:54.920 Russia.
00:29:55.500 And then number two, he set out to destroy Nord Stream 2, which was the basis of future
00:30:00.280 Russian economic prosperity.
00:30:01.620 It enabled them to sell cheap natural gas to Germany and then to Europe.
00:30:04.120 And Trump told Europe, if you keep buying gas through Nord Stream 2 from Russia, we're not
00:30:08.480 going to pay for your defense.
00:30:09.560 You have to buy it from us.
00:30:10.440 Why should we pay?
00:30:11.860 So basically, Trump attacked the national security of Russia and the financial prosperity
00:30:16.640 of Russia.
00:30:17.040 And not one journalist ever stopped to think, huh, how do I reconcile with the claim that
00:30:22.320 he's captive to Russia, that he's controlled by Russia?
00:30:25.960 And finally, I will just say that on this core conspiracy of, you know, that Trump or his
00:30:32.580 son or his family or his key campaign officials conspire with the Russians, they
00:30:38.380 set out, they unleashed Robert Mueller, who they said was the greatest and most honorable
00:30:42.100 prosecutor ever to exist.
00:30:43.660 He had a so-called dream team of prosecutors, unlimited resources, unlimited subpoena power.
00:30:48.060 They unleashed him for 18 months.
00:30:49.340 It drowned our politics in this conspiracy theory.
00:30:51.180 He comes back, closes the investigation without indicting even one American for collaborating
00:30:56.260 with Russia, and then writes a report saying, I looked, but I did not find any evidence
00:31:00.860 establishing this link between the Russians and Trump in order to interfere in the 26th
00:31:06.240 resolution.
00:31:07.000 And to this day, if you go and ask the New York Times, the Washington Post, they'll say,
00:31:10.520 no, this wasn't debunked.
00:31:11.500 This is absolutely true.
00:31:12.520 And they're running cover now to try and claim that Tulsi's documents that she released,
00:31:16.180 that she declassified, even though they obviously fortify the fact that it's a hoax.
00:31:19.880 No, no, you're misreading them.
00:31:21.300 They're fake.
00:31:22.160 Whatever.
00:31:22.900 They're so invested in this fraud that they perpetrated.
00:31:26.500 So yeah, I think the disclosures help.
00:31:28.380 But Russiagate really is and was a religion to the corporate media and to a liberal America.
00:31:32.960 And I don't ever see that being really changed.
00:31:36.540 Well, and the media played their role in information laundering because they're not going to be
00:31:41.520 critical of what they're fed if they're just so hungry to be fed anything, right?
00:31:46.460 There's an ecosystem where they're all there frothing for information from these Intel officials,
00:31:52.220 who, by the way, a bunch of whom they want to go work for these media companies afterwards.
00:31:56.200 So that incentive structure—
00:31:57.640 And they did.
00:31:58.220 They did.
00:31:58.840 Yes.
00:31:59.360 They did.
00:31:59.980 I know.
00:32:00.700 It is the exact same dynamic we just described on the think tanks and members of Congress
00:32:05.600 with the Intel officials and then the frothing media entities that are engaged in this information spin-up.
00:32:12.560 And what, like, regular folks that are upset about this one, I was like,
00:32:15.640 well, you know, when someone's getting thrown in jail,
00:32:17.860 which is a very challenging prosecutorial decision you've got to make based on the likelihood of a conviction.
00:32:21.960 And for you to get kind of the actualization where more people do, in fact, acknowledge what this was,
00:32:31.540 even if at the time they were bamboozled, you have to have a narrator.
00:32:36.600 And that narrator can't be Director Gabbard, as good a job as she's done.
00:32:41.020 Like, you have to have the person on the inside explaining how this occurred.
00:32:46.120 And based on the documents that CIA Director Ratcliffe and DNI Gabbard have released,
00:32:52.620 those people do exist because they keep referencing these career folks.
00:32:57.240 But if we have to hear that narrator, like, forget the bloodlust of whether you want to, like, see people behind bars.
00:33:04.780 Is that better done in a courtroom or in a congressional hearing?
00:33:08.040 If we think about how both have been used to create a historical reckoning,
00:33:13.960 where does Glenn Greenwald want to see the best narration we have of the worst features of this hoax?
00:33:21.580 In a perfect world, which is not the world we live in,
00:33:25.040 if you are inside the national security state and the intelligence community
00:33:28.920 and you purposely abuse the basically unlimited powers that they have
00:33:33.400 to interfere in an American election, to manipulate the electorate,
00:33:36.840 to try and get your colleague Hillary Clinton elected to the presidency
00:33:40.200 and destroy the Trump campaign and the Trump presidency,
00:33:43.640 I do think those ought to be crimes that are held,
00:33:46.080 people are held accounted for legally.
00:33:47.840 The problem is we've created so many barriers and impunities and immunities
00:33:52.800 for people who work in the intelligence community who,
00:33:55.680 I mean, I thought, you know, Bush officials should have been prosecuted for
00:33:58.840 authorizing warrantless spying on American citizens in violation for the law.
00:34:02.460 But everyone agreed, no, no, we can't do anything like that or for torture.
00:34:05.640 There's so many different layers of protections that these people have
00:34:08.420 and there's statute of limitations issues.
00:34:10.580 So I agree that it's both unlikely.
00:34:13.340 And the problem is if you didn't have an extremely strong case legally or factually,
00:34:17.820 you risk vindicating these people if you can't overcome the gigantic hurdle
00:34:22.080 of reasonable doubt in order to get a conviction.
00:34:24.740 And that would end up having the opposite effect.
00:34:26.600 So I agree with you totally.
00:34:27.840 The way to do this is to get people,
00:34:29.920 the Republicans control the Congress, get people who are both the wrongdoers,
00:34:34.880 but then also people inside these agencies who will tell the story of what they understand
00:34:39.300 and what they know.
00:34:40.620 And that will bring a lot more public attention to it as well.
00:34:45.120 And to that, I agree with you totally.
00:34:47.060 Someone credible needs to be sitting in those chairs with the cameras on explaining
00:34:51.700 to the American people why they were deceived and why this deception was accomplished
00:34:57.040 through incredible abuse of these powers.
00:35:01.780 That is the cathartic moment we need.
00:35:03.600 And I sometimes debate the role that the Russia hoax played in the conflict
00:35:09.320 that we currently find ourselves in Ukraine in this proxy war.
00:35:13.460 And I think NATO expansion without a real vision for NATO in the modern times
00:35:20.860 is a contributing factor to what we're observing.
00:35:24.980 And I also think that just when the Afghanistan war wound down,
00:35:29.080 there was a place that the money launderers and weapons launderers
00:35:32.960 needed another ecosystem to go and inhabit.
00:35:35.560 And I do kind of think the winding down of Afghanistan
00:35:38.560 and the winding up of our involvement in Ukraine are linked.
00:35:41.220 But others have made the argument to me, and I don't know that I agree with this,
00:35:46.200 but that what the Russia hoax did to kind of position Vladimir Putin
00:35:52.120 as this villain trying to manipulate our elections
00:35:56.920 somehow led us to this moment where we're more involved than we otherwise would be.
00:36:01.680 Where do you fall on that, Glenn?
00:36:03.680 I absolutely believe that from the very beginning,
00:36:06.420 my concern with Russiagate as a journalist was that it was an evidence-free,
00:36:10.880 baseless scandal.
00:36:12.200 So obviously, as a journalist, I'm looking at this and saying this is false.
00:36:14.880 That was my concern.
00:36:15.540 My bigger concern, just as kind of an American, a citizen of the world, whatever,
00:36:19.460 is that there were a lot of people inside the Obama administration,
00:36:23.920 people like Victoria Nguyen and definitely Hillary Clinton, 0.98
00:36:27.040 who believed that Russia needed to be confronted far more aggressively
00:36:31.020 than Obama was willing to confront them.
00:36:32.860 He didn't confront them in Syria.
00:36:34.040 He didn't confront them with the 2014 annexation of Ukraine.
00:36:38.900 He got criticized by the Hillary Clintons and Victoria Nulands of the world
00:36:41.880 for not having done that.
00:36:42.780 And they were determined to significantly raise the antagonism and hatred level
00:36:49.020 among American people toward Russia by telling them,
00:36:52.180 you know what?
00:36:52.580 The reason you got Donald Trump is because of Vladimir Putin.
00:36:55.660 He wants to end our democracy. 1.00
00:36:57.560 He's a thug. 1.00
00:36:58.380 He's a tyrant. 0.99
00:36:59.160 And basically, you know, when Mike Flynn got prosecuted for doing nothing other than
00:37:04.480 picking up the phone and calling his counterpart in Russia to basically say,
00:37:07.780 hey, we'd like to reset the relationship.
00:37:09.660 You know, don't worry about these sanctions.
00:37:10.940 We're going to have we're going to try and have a better relationship.
00:37:13.520 People became petrified of even talking to the Russians.
00:37:16.220 Communication got cut off.
00:37:17.740 And the United States and Russia are still the two largest nuclear powers on the planet.
00:37:22.080 We have, you know, thousands of intercontinental ballistic missiles
00:37:26.180 that are nuclear tipped aimed at each other's cities on hair trigger warnings
00:37:29.120 to go to war against Russia, which is basically what we're doing in Ukraine,
00:37:33.100 is incredibly dangerous.
00:37:34.840 But I absolutely believe that one of the main reasons the public got on board to do it
00:37:39.260 was because this endless propaganda about Vladimir Putin and Russiagate
00:37:44.380 and him taking over our democracy.
00:37:46.320 And a lot of Republicans believe that as well.
00:37:48.300 As you know, you work with them.
00:37:50.740 They were hardcore on funding the war in Ukraine.
00:37:53.720 It wasn't just Democrats.
00:37:54.560 And I think that was very much in the air, this idea that he got demonized.
00:37:58.840 Russia got demonized.
00:37:59.660 We had 15, 20 years of president saying Putin is a shrewd, rational person.
00:38:03.760 He acts in his self-interest.
00:38:04.920 You can do a deal with him and trust him.
00:38:06.440 And then overnight it became, no, actually, he's the gravest danger to the United States.
00:38:11.480 And a lot of older Americans still think of Russia as an enemy from the Cold War.
00:38:14.460 And that propaganda really worked.
00:38:15.800 And I do believe that's a major factor while we got into this now four-year war
00:38:19.900 with no end in sight in Russia and Ukraine.
00:38:22.280 It really has shifted, though.
00:38:24.000 I remember when they initially did the sanctions package for Belarus and Russia,
00:38:29.880 there were only three members who voted against that on the Republican side.
00:38:34.180 You know, Thomas Massey, Marjorie Taylor Greene, and myself.
00:38:37.340 And we went from that moment, the kind of low watermark of opposition to U.S.
00:38:43.280 involvement in this conflict, to, like, by the time I left, Glenn, half the Republican
00:38:47.980 conference in every vote on this conflict was voting against continued U.S.
00:38:55.160 investment and involvement.
00:38:56.040 And I don't even know that these boomers in Congress came to that position out of anything 0.98
00:39:01.680 other than political necessity.
00:39:04.080 Because you had a lot of Republican primary voters out there who couldn't point to Ukraine
00:39:09.580 on a map, didn't care.
00:39:11.260 But they saw the inflationary effect of this.
00:39:14.420 They saw, like you said, a country around them that was getting worse in terms of their own
00:39:18.800 quality of life.
00:39:19.680 And there was fatigue after Afghanistan and Iraq and Syria.
00:39:24.800 And so I think that the worm has really turned on that.
00:39:28.540 And what you don't hear anymore also is, like, this is what we have to do in the front lines
00:39:34.920 of democracy.
00:39:35.900 That was what always got me.
00:39:37.680 When, like, you know, Biden or whomever, Jake Sullivan would puff up, oh, for democracy.
00:39:42.700 They canceled their presidential elections.
00:39:45.260 They're lifting people off the streets and forcing them to fight.
00:39:49.260 They're making elements of faith and media and political opposition illegal.
00:39:56.400 And I'm thinking, what, this is the front lines of democracy?
00:39:59.500 And now I see that U.S. policy is to have the 50% tariff on India as a secondary sanction
00:40:08.580 because they buy stuff from Russia.
00:40:11.520 So now, in defense of democracies that don't hold elections, that cancel the rights of media
00:40:18.460 and opposition groups, we are literally creating an economic sanction against the biggest democracy
00:40:23.640 in the world.
00:40:24.240 Is that lost on everyone, Glenn?
00:40:28.260 That's incredibly of huge strategic importance.
00:40:31.460 India is, I mean, it is shocking. 1.00
00:40:34.760 But, you know, I think one thing that is important is you are right that a lot of Republicans turned
00:40:43.420 against it.
00:40:44.020 There were maybe 6,000 people on the first funding bill in the House Republican Caucus who
00:40:48.400 voted against it, you being one of them, obviously.
00:40:50.120 And I think 11 Republican senators and then that opposition grew.
00:40:53.940 One of the things that I think is worth noting, and I think one of the major reasons that it
00:40:57.080 happened was at the time, Tucker Carlson was in the 8 o'clock spot on Fox News.
00:41:01.500 He was by far the most popular and watched cable news host in the country. 0.99
00:41:05.260 And pretty much every night he was on TV ranting and raving about the stupidity and how nonsensical 0.99
00:41:10.500 it is that we're sending billions and billions of dollars to Ukraine, when obviously it's 0.99
00:41:14.760 a war about who governs various provinces in eastern Ukraine.
00:41:17.640 It has no bearing on the United States.
00:41:20.060 And I remember when Tucker got fired from Fox, and I think part of it was that.
00:41:23.380 A lot of Republicans, your colleagues, ran to Axios and Politico anonymously and said,
00:41:30.440 oh, we're so happy that Tucker got fired because now it's so much easier for us to fund the
00:41:35.280 war in Ukraine like we want to. 0.97
00:41:36.600 He was the one of many people, but he, in particular, making it so difficult.
00:41:41.980 But then again, here we are.
00:41:43.960 We're now seven months into the Trump presidency.
00:41:46.460 I do absolutely believe that Trump wanted to and continues to want to end the war. 0.96
00:41:50.160 And I do think that he's frustrated that Russia won't take his directions to stop because
00:41:57.040 Russia invested, you know, they've lost hundreds of thousands of young Russian men.
00:42:01.780 They spent massive amounts of money.
00:42:03.420 They've paid prices and sanctions and stuff.
00:42:05.780 And they believe they have an existential national security interest in creating a buffer between
00:42:09.800 themselves and NATO and themselves in the West.
00:42:12.080 And they're not going to just stop because Trump tells them to.
00:42:14.480 It's too important to Russia. 0.89
00:42:16.100 But the current position is, and you never know if it's just Trump negotiating or not,
00:42:19.940 is like, we're going to continue to fund Ukraine because we have to help them in this war.
00:42:26.440 But I do think that's going to be a lot less than it was before.
00:42:29.600 And a big part of that is, and this is what we began by talking about, the America first
00:42:33.840 ideology was very much about this, like stop funding the wars of foreign countries.
00:42:37.960 And I do think Trump and a lot of people in the White House and Congress very much want
00:42:41.900 to stop it when it comes to Ukraine.
00:42:43.200 They just don't apply the same mentality to Israel.
00:42:46.120 But I think it was so important to get that message out there about Ukraine, like we need
00:42:51.160 to stop sending all our money to these foreign wars.
00:42:53.420 It's breaking our country because that has helped with every instance where we're doing
00:42:58.060 that.
00:42:58.320 I think Trump was politically pressured not to bomb Iran for more than one night because
00:43:02.580 he knew that his own base would revolt.
00:43:04.500 These are all good things.
00:43:05.520 These are all important and positive things.
00:43:07.300 And so it just needs to keep being pushed.
00:43:10.100 Like we shouldn't send any more money to Ukraine.
00:43:12.820 It's a feudal war.
00:43:13.940 They're going to lose.
00:43:15.480 You know, the reality is Russia is much bigger and more powerful. 0.86
00:43:18.400 And that's just the reality.
00:43:20.240 And we're just throwing.
00:43:21.420 But but also just one quick point, which is that the time that elapsed between our leaving
00:43:26.060 Afghanistan and the war in Ukraine beginning was about eight months.
00:43:29.140 So the whole military industrial complex got to take a little break, got to breathe a little
00:43:33.520 bit.
00:43:33.880 And then right away, there was these huge contracts flowing in again for all their missiles and
00:43:37.760 weapons and tanks and everything to send to Ukraine.
00:43:40.120 It's obviously not a coincidence.
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00:44:37.820 There is one other area of the world I want to discuss with you, Glenn, and it's one you cover closely.
00:44:43.780 I've been covering it.
00:44:44.680 It's what's happening in Brazil.
00:44:46.660 And for those who don't know, Glenn was really one of the original reporters who showcased the corruption of the Lula administration
00:44:54.700 and probably one of the reasons why Lula had to face some consequences as a result of his conduct.
00:45:00.240 But now you have Bolsonaro as this reemergent, I guess never really went away, but certainly the popular support for Bolsonaro is palpable and noticeable.
00:45:14.240 They want to arrest him.
00:45:17.280 Now the United States has issued sanctions against Justice Marais, the individual who's kind of acting like the dictator of Brazil.
00:45:26.280 But at the same time, Lula seems to be more popular than ever because the retaliatory economic consequences that were applied to the whole country
00:45:36.520 seem to have constituted some sort of base for Lula.
00:45:39.980 So you have covered this extensively.
00:45:43.020 What's going on in Brazil?
00:45:45.120 Yeah, just to quickly clarify, I did a reporting in 2019 and 2020 about corruption inside the prosecutorial office that put Lula in jail.
00:45:54.320 And then the Supreme Court used my reporting to let Lula out of jail.
00:45:57.580 But then I did your reporting last year.
00:45:59.400 We got this huge leak of documents from Marais' office, the Supreme Court judge that has been censoring,
00:46:05.020 imprisoning political opponents, putting them in exile, that showed massive abuses of power.
00:46:10.760 We had documents that came right from his chambers by a very, very whistleblower.
00:46:15.320 And we were able to show things like he would wake up one day and say, I want that magazine closed.
00:46:19.340 Go find some evidence that would justify closing it.
00:46:21.880 And they would come back and they would say, we looked everywhere.
00:46:24.120 It doesn't seem like they did anything.
00:46:25.700 It was like a right-wing Probable Snorow magazine or website.
00:46:27.980 And he would then send a message back saying, be creative.
00:46:31.940 This is a person, I can't overstate what a tyrant he is. 0.98
00:46:36.280 It's really like kind of a mental illness at this point. 0.74
00:46:38.560 Like he's so invested in his own righteousness and also in the determination to prove that his power is without limits,
00:46:46.360 that he's actually quite maniacal.
00:46:50.280 And there's a lot of people, including Lula.
00:46:53.200 Yes, you're right.
00:46:54.380 They got some benefits because Lula raised the sovereignty flag.
00:46:57.740 Like no one tells us what to do.
00:46:59.180 Brazilians decide what Brazilians do. 0.96
00:47:00.620 And of course, that's going to create some positive feelings toward Lula.
00:47:03.680 It's like when any country gets attacked from an outside country, they unify behind their leader.
00:47:07.940 The problem is, is that these tariffs and these sanctions are going to harm Brazil's economy very severely.
00:47:17.280 And 14 and 15 months from now, when Lula runs for re-election, Bolsonaro is barred from running, but we'll see who he runs against.
00:47:24.200 When people are suffering economically, when they've lost huge numbers of jobs because of tariffs and sanctions,
00:47:29.220 and when the economy starts crashing, no one's going to remember, oh yeah, I remember that Trump put sanctions or tariffs.
00:47:37.320 They're going to blame the government.
00:47:39.400 And Lula really wants to find a way out of this conflict with the United States and negotiate a deal because he knows he's going to put him in trouble. 0.94
00:47:49.300 The problem is that Brazilians is a freak and a maniac, and he doesn't want a deal. 1.00
00:47:53.140 He wants to blow up any deal. 0.97
00:47:54.860 And so even every time they do something, the tariffs or sanctions, he goes further.
00:47:58.480 He is now at the point where he's ordering an American social media company, Rumble, to censor American citizens inside the United States for ordering them to turn over data about American citizens of the United States and threatening Rumble with massive fines if they don't comply, which of course they're not going to.
00:48:15.140 He's deliberately provoking the United States, the United States government to show that he doesn't care. 0.77
00:48:21.720 And, you know, I was at first a little bit doubtful, even though I do think Marais is a maniac.
00:48:27.720 Like, why should the United States be interfering in Brazilian politics, punishing a judge because he's internally repressive?
00:48:34.380 But I do think it becomes justified when that censorship, when those punishments start getting directed at American companies, American citizens, even legal residents in the United States, which he's been doing for months now.
00:48:46.760 And, you know, it's kind of like Ukraine and Russia.
00:48:49.720 In one sense, you can decide who you think is the just party.
00:48:53.460 But at the end of the day, Russia is so much more powerful than Ukraine that they're going to win. 0.94
00:48:57.340 The United States is infinitely more powerful than Brazil with the dollar as the reserve currency.
00:49:01.440 And Brazil can keep trying to pretend that they're willing to fight the United States.
00:49:06.320 We'll get a little popularity, raising the banner of sovereignty.
00:49:09.900 But at the end of the day, this is a major crisis, a major problem in Brazil.
00:49:13.660 We don't talk about it in the United States because it really doesn't affect the United States.
00:49:16.080 But in Brazil, it's by far and away the most talked about issue is the conflict with the United States.
00:49:22.020 So they're going to have to find ways out of that.
00:49:24.900 This persecution of Bolsonaro is going to have to end.
00:49:26.880 The censorship regime is going to have to end.
00:49:28.560 And because if not, I know for sure that the United States government, the executive branch,
00:49:33.360 tends to continue to to intends to continue to crush Brazil the more defiant they become. 0.87
00:49:39.720 How long until we can accurately call Brazil a dictatorship?
00:49:42.840 I am very careful about, you know, words like that.
00:49:49.740 But at the same time, I'll just tell you, you know, there are huge numbers of Bolsonaro supporters,
00:49:56.740 journalists, elected members of Congress, senators, bloggers, activists who are either in prison because of Marais,
00:50:05.120 who ordered them in prison.
00:50:06.260 They're all banned from the Internet and censored.
00:50:08.320 Huge numbers of them are in exile.
00:50:11.560 And when they go into exile, when they leave Brazil, he tries to put them on the Interpol list.
00:50:16.920 He tries to extradite them.
00:50:18.680 The United States, even under Joe Biden, refused his extradition request because the United States said,
00:50:23.580 no, these are political crimes.
00:50:26.040 These are crimes of speech.
00:50:27.180 We don't extradite for that.
00:50:28.720 There's some in Spain.
00:50:29.720 The Spanish government also told Marais, we're not extraditing.
00:50:33.640 And then in retaliation, he actually released a drug dealer that Spain wants extradited, kind of as punishment.
00:50:41.120 He asked Interpol to put Bolsonaro supporters on the list.
00:50:43.880 Interpol said, this is not appropriate.
00:50:45.960 These are not the kind of crimes that we're here to to govern.
00:50:49.320 And everybody I know in Brazil is afraid of him, is afraid of speaking out against him.
00:50:54.100 I mean, I do it because I feel like I have a lot of extra protection being American, having a big profile internationally.
00:51:00.500 And some of the people do it, too.
00:51:01.860 But when you get to that point where people are genuinely petrified of criticizing government officials,
00:51:07.000 and for good reason, that you wind up in jail, you wind up having your life destroyed,
00:51:10.460 he freezes people's bank accounts, their assets, and there's so many people in exile.
00:51:15.180 You do get to the point where I think you can say Brazil is under judicial tyranny or judicial dictatorship,
00:51:20.700 even though I'm very hesitant to use words like that.
00:51:24.060 But we're getting to the point, if we're not already there, where it's appropriate.
00:51:28.860 Glenn Greenwald, he is the host of System Update on Rumble,
00:51:32.640 someone I follow closely when he speaks about matters of the world and access to information.
00:51:37.780 I always get a lot smarter every time we have a chance to chat, and greatly appreciate you coming on the show.
00:51:42.960 It's always great to see you, Matt. Thanks for having me.
00:51:45.180 Take care.
00:51:45.860 Want to see more great videos like this?
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