The Anchormen Show Episode 45 - Kill the Boer w⧸ Ernst Roets
Episode Stats
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Summary
In this episode of The Matt Gaetz Show, host Matt sits down with Ernst Rotst, an advocate for the Afrikaner community in South Africa, to discuss the current state of racial strife in the country and what it means for the future of the country.
Transcript
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Now, it's time for the Anchorman Podcast with Matt Gaetz and Dan Ball.
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Welcome back to the Anchorman Show. I'm Matt Gaetz, host of the Matt Gaetz Show,
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every night, 9 o'clock Eastern, 6 Pacific, on One America News. We're so excited. Our channel
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is now being carried on Spectrum, the number one cable provider in the entire country,
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talking to a lot of folks about the great things going on in the country. And this program,
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the Anchorman Podcast, gives us a chance to really address the human condition on a weekly basis.
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We also distribute it to my entire online universe, whether that's on YouTube, Rumble,
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Apple, or X. And we have had all kind of folks from all kind of walks of life on. We've had
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professional prize fighters, professional comedians. We had someone who was a member of
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the homeless community here in California, policy experts, political candidates. And our goal is
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really to have a better understanding of what's going on here in our country with humanity and
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the world. And one of the subjects that we've really been following closely on our daily program
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is the plight of white farmers in South Africa. There has been a real tinge of genocide to the
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governmental policies in South Africa. And with President Trump issuing executive orders,
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punishing South Africa for some of their conduct, we really wanted the chance to do a deep dive into
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why this is happening and what it possibly says about other racial strife that we see emerging in
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other parts of the world. And so we'll get to that with an expert with a plan in just a moment. But
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Stay sharp, stay strong, stay free. And I am joined this week, as always, by my good friend and
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on-again, off-again employee. He was the founding producer of Steve Bannon's War Room. Now he's a
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producer on the Matt Gaetz Show, worked on Capitol Hill in my office and in the office of George Santos,
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Vish Burra. Thank you for being here. And one of our regular guests on the Matt Gaetz Show,
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but someone we've really been following, Ernst Rotst. And Ernst is an advocate for the Afrikaner
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community in South Africa. And he is recently out with a plan to create self-determination for folks
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in South Africa to fight back against these genocidal impulses that we have been observing.
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And so we're going to get into all of that, Ernst. I can't wait to really get to the core of this issue.
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But Vish, first, when really the New York Young Republican Club started talking about the challenges
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in South Africa well before this was the subject of Oval Office meetings or executive orders,
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how did the club that you were in the leadership of come to this issue and think about it?
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Well, honestly, we can really thank Ernst here for kind of helping initiate that. We have a very robust
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international committee at the club that's led by Nathan Berger. He's the former vice president. He's
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still part of the leadership there at the club. But we've always looked to create partnerships and
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pipelines overseas. Because the whole idea is that, you know, people talk about the MAGA movement
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being populist or isolationist or all these other words, isms that, you know, kind of implies that we
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want to be alone in this world. And that's far from the truth. We want to, we want, went out there with
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the kind of objective to create global connections with people of like mind who have similar sort of
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nationalistic views and pride in their own nations. And one of those pipelines was constructed by that
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international committee and Ernst. And the funny thing is, we did, I think, our first event with
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Ernst back in 2022. And before the event happened, we were marketing it. And I had made my way down
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to NatCon 2022 down in Miami. And at NatCon 2022, I was going through the crowd and I saw this handsome
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gentleman there. And I recognized him from our promotional materials. And I was like, I'm pretty
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sure we're having an event about South Africa with this guy in just a couple of weeks at the New York
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Young Republican Club. So I went over, introduced myself to him and we hit it off as, as friends.
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And we had the event, uh, just, uh, you know, two weeks after that. And honestly, the thing is that
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this South Africa issue is really, there's a, a, a tangential line between where America is going
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and what South Africa and the Afrikaners have already been through and, and the kind of reactions
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and solutions that they've developed in response to the, this kind of racialized politics and
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balkanized politics that we're going through right now in America. And so that's, we just,
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we wanted to be able to bring up those pipelines, create that, um, that conversation and dialogue,
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and also provide ideas on how they can fight back in their home country while they provide us ideas on
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At the good that the New York Young Republican Club is doing for the movement, because of your
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great connections through the club, you've been able to connect our entire audience to Ernst and
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his message. So Ernst, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to a conference in Miami
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Um, thank you. So, uh, yes, well, I'm an Afrikaner and I grew up in South Africa. I live in South Africa.
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I live in Pretoria. Uh, I grew up up in the North in South Africa, not far from the Zimbabwean border.
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Um, and so I grew up with that reality with the farm invasions and all of that, and the crashing of the
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Zimbabwean economy, uh, just not far from, from we lived. And, and also the reality of the farm murders.
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Uh, I lived in an agricultural community. So, you know, living in an agricultural community in South Africa,
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you know, people who are attacked and you knew people who have been murdered. And it's the same with me, uh,
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friends who went to school with me, who've been murdered and, and it's really, it's really something.
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Um, and so that sort of just naturally pushed me into doing what I'm doing today. Um, and it's
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through that, and I've been involved with a variety of organizations, including back then I was with
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AfriForum, which is a civil rights group in South Africa that does fantastic work. And, um, uh, we
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started, you know, reaching out to other communities and reaching out to the rest of the world.
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I met the, the guys of the club at, uh, uh, CPAC in Hungary. I remember the first guy from the
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club I met was Nathan. In fact, you just mentioned, um, and then Gavin, and we had a great conversation
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leading up to an invitation to speak at, at the club. And, um, I think that was, like you said,
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it was the Miami conference was just before, shortly before the event. So I figured let's go a bit
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earlier. Well, sure. I'm sure it was a compelling message you had to share, especially when you're
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talking about growing up and losing friends to, you described them as murders. Uh, how old were
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you when your first friend, when you first had to encounter that dynamic of a friend or someone you
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knew about being killed? And, and what was that like? Well, the first, uh, that I remember was in,
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I believe it was in 1994 when the ANC took power was, um, and we had recently moved to this
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agricultural community and someone we knew who was quite close to us. Um, someone who was working
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with my mother, his, uh, wife was kidnapped, uh, and raped. And it, I mean, I was, I don't know,
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10 years old, uh, nine or 10 years old at the time. And I didn't really know what this means.
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Um, and that was my first real experience with this. And then, um, the people who live next to us
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or across the street from us in, in this town where we grew up, uh, I lived in a town for some time
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and some time on the farm, uh, uh, was family of a very victims of a very well-known murder in
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South Africa in 1985. It was two families who were killed in it by a landmine that was planted by,
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by the ANC, uh, back before. Who's that that planted the landmine? Uh, the ANC is the party that's
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running South Africa today, the ruling party in South Africa. They took responsibility for it. And
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that's because they have, they had a formal position adopted in 1985 that they regard farmers and
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especially white farmers as legitimate target, not as soft targets. And so including, and they
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deliberately said so, including their wives and their children. And so they started targeting
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farmers. And one of the ways in which they did that back then, they don't do it today anymore,
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was through landmines. And so, uh, this was a very well-known case of a, the farmer actually survived,
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um, but his children were killed and his wife was killed in this landmine accident. And we grew up
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next to them, um, and sort of learning about this from their perspective. And then the other stories
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is just people, um, who sort of in the community in which we lived, who've been attacked on farms.
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And, and one case that was particularly vivid was one Sunday we were in church and someone came,
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came running in and there's an elderly couple in, in our church. And if memory, I was young,
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if memory recalls, I think the lady stayed at home and the husband, uh, came to church and then they
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murdered her, uh, what on the Sunday during the, the, the congregation or the ceremony, they had a,
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uh, they tied her up next to a tree and I believe she was beaten with a hammer and eventually her
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throat was slit. And, um, and then for some time we lived on a farm and it's really something growing
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up with this sort of knowledge as a child. And I remember sleeping on the farm, you know, next to the
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window and a twig or something would fall from the tree. And your first instinct is someone came
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to murder me or the power would go off. And your first instinct is not that there's some strange
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reason. Maybe some cable got wet or something. Your first instinct is they're here. They're going
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to come and kill us. So, so you sort of growing up with that sort of really shapes you in a particular
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way. Violence is always something that would shape anyone, however they encounter it. But it would seem
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to be different if you were growing up believing that that violence was somehow inspired by shaped
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by your own government. I mean, even when people grow up in, in deeply violent places, uh, if they
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think that the cops will come, there's hope. Yes. Uh, what, how should Americans think about
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kind of where the violence starts and where the government begins in South Africa in a lot of
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these instances? So, so, um, my book Kill the Boer that was published a few years ago is it's called
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Kill the Boer and the subheading is government complexity in South Africa's brutal farm murders.
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And we debated whether that's the appropriate term, the term, the word complexity. And I felt strongly
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that it is because firstly, there are some reported cases of government officials involved, like members
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of the police in directly involved in the killing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now maybe that could be
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isolated cases. In most of the cases, we don't have that detail, but there are such examples.
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But what is more concerning is the political climate that has been created in South Africa,
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where if you go out and you kill a farmer, it's not a bad thing, or it's not as condemnable when the
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victim is someone else. And this continued chanting of Kill the Boer, Kill the Farmer, while the farmers
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are being killed, and then the politicians, including the president, would either deny that the farm
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murders are happening, or they would try to justify it in some way by saying that, well, the problem is
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actually the farmers. And if they just behaved better, then maybe we wouldn't kill them.
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Well, wait, that's exactly what happened during this Oval Office discussion where President Trump
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really gave a lot of voice to the concerns you've been expressing. The very thing you said happened.
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There was a there was a denial. There was, oh, well, this isn't the policy of the government.
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These things aren't happening. Let's take a listen. We have hundreds of people, thousands of people
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trying to come into our country because they feel they're going to be killed and their land is going
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to be confiscated. And then when they take the land, they kill the white farmer. And when they
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kill the white farmer, nothing happens to them. The farmers are not black. And the people that are
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being killed in large numbers. And you saw all those grave sites. And those are people that loved ones
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going, I guess, on a Sunday morning, they told me to pay respect to their loved ones that were killed.
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No, he was definitely on point. And I can say that even though there was this very fierce reaction
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against President Trump, because there are a lot of people, especially in America, but also in South
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Africa, who like to believe if President Trump says, A, then B has to be the truth. So there were-
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We see that condition arise sometimes here as well. But what I'm seeing described, it would almost
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inspire within the farmers that exist in South Africa a hatred, a racism, a worldview that would
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not be compatible with continuing to be under the same government and in the same country together,
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right? I mean, is it like, are we going to, are we seeing a situation arise where what people have
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faced have caused, like, the farmers to be inherently racist when they see anyone approaching?
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Like you say, you're waiting for the twig to fall in the middle of the night. What do you think?
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Well, I, you know, I want to point that out. It's because in that first event that, that Ernst did with,
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with the New York Young Republicans, one part that really stood out to me was that, yeah, you know,
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Afrikaners can be mad or, or, or even be filled with rage about what's going on with these people.
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But another reaction that they had was that they relied on their innovation and ingenuity to
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respond to it. Right. And we talk about today that there's this kind of parallel economy kind
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of developing where things are like, people are saying, you can't, we're going to cancel you off
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this platform, cancel you off this. If you want to go build your own Facebook, go build it. But then
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we blow you off the Amazon servers. Right. But the South Africans actually had an incredible response
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to this. And Ernst, maybe you can talk about that, about the systems that you had to build
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in response to that, the normalization of racial violence and hatred amongst, uh, against the,
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the farmers of South Africa. So, so from an Afrikaner perspective, when the political transition
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happened in South Africa, the, the government used to be very much pro Afrikaner and then overnight
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it shifted and then it became, um, very openly antagonistic. Why, why the change? Well,
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it was the political transition when, when the ANC took power in 1994, when, when Nelson Mandela
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became the president and it was sort of mellow initially with all the talk of reconciliation
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and a rainbow nation. And then the ANC started showing its true colors, which has been there
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since before the transition. I mentioned the killing of the farmers, uh, the landmines and
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so forth. Um, and then it's, it's really, it really shakes you up into your foundations when
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the Afrikaners, I think to our detriment became very dependent on the state during the 1980s and
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so forth. And then suddenly the state became our single biggest existential threat. And so we,
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and then we quickly discovered that we cannot rely on the state if, I mean, I was in an, in an armed
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robbery a few years ago in South Africa where someone was killed, um, in front of my family actually.
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And, and I actually, while we were sort of hiding from the robbers, I tried calling the police and
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they didn't even answer their phone. Then I called private security and I called what we call community
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security. It's like neighborhood watches and they responded immediately and they were there within
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five minutes. So, so you can't, you can't depend on the government. And so you can't, you also can't
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outvote them because South Africa is very big. Uh, it's, it's like trying to, it's, it's the equivalent
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of a small state in the U S Louisiana or something trying to, uh, uh, to outvote the national, you
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know, ballot. No, yeah. We understand the notion that, uh, there are times when you are not going to
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be beyond the political power of an ethnic minority in the country. Yeah. And so the only way, so, so
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firstly, we should talk, I mean, you mentioned this, the political system needs to change, but other than
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that within the existing circumstances at the moment, the only way forward is for us to sort
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of rediscover an ancient truth, which is that a nation saves itself. Don't wait for the government
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to fix your problems, fix them yourself. And so if it's dangerous in your area and the police aren't
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there, you should keep calling them and you should keep applying pressure. But at the end of the day,
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just do something about it yourself. Get, get armed, uh, know, learn how to use a firearm, get radios,
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start driving patrols in your areas. And then we also started establishing a variety of institutions
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in South Africa to look after our community. And so the Afrikaners have been accused of developing
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a parallel state, um, through sort of private initiatives, just, uh, you know, developing our
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own schools, private schools and so forth. And it goes for basically every sphere, basically
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everything that the government is supposed to be doing. We have just de facto taken over just
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through doing it ourselves, establishing our own network, our own private security,
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our own education systems, our own cultural institutions, uh, and so forth. You can go down
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the list. And what have been the societal and cultural ramifications of establishing those
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assets? Well, it's, it's interesting. If you look at some of the great atrocities of the last
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century, there's, there are some recurring themes or threads, which is that it's usually, or in most
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of these cases, almost all of these cases, in fact, a minority that has been, that are being
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targeted, that is easily identifiable, and that is economically better off than the majority.
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Uh, that was the case. Obviously we saw that in Germany, we saw that in Europe, we saw that in many
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of these, um, atrocities and, you know, whether it's Yugoslavia, uh, the Tutsis in Rwanda. And that's
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the problem that we have is in, as far as we are successful, we are being targeted because of that,
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because the, the Marxist line is, if you are successful, that's because you stole something
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from someone or you have exploited someone. And if you are poor, it's because someone stole
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something from you. And now they blend that in South Africa with race nationalism. So then the
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line is more or less that if you are, that being poor and being black is the same thing and being
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rich and being white is the same thing. And there are no poor white people, which of course is a lie.
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And there are no rich black people. And so also a lie, which is, yeah, which is also a lie,
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especially the politically connected elites are incredibly wealthy. Um, and so, and so then we
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would be targeted as a result of that. So in, as far as we are successful or we remain successful,
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the argument is, oh, so that's privilege. And therefore we need to take more extreme measures
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to destroy the privilege that you have. We have heard that argument made, uh, in this country a time
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or two, the, uh, you know, the diagnosis of where things are now helped me understand. Is it getting
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better? Is it getting worse? Are we in a stasis where things are the same? Is there really a
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community left to be saved? Have so many Afrikaners left under this pressure that, that we're really,
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you know, not, uh, able to constitute a society out of this?
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So, so the situation in South Africa is definitely getting worse, uh, in terms of the friction,
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the political climate, the economy, virtually every indicator, crime levels, everything, trust in the
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government, all of those are getting worse. Um, what, what is getting better is I would say two
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things. There might be more, but two things especially stand out. One is the resolve of
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the Afrikaner people to find a future in South Africa. So, um, many have left the country.
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Yeah. So, so many have left and, and many will continue to leave. We've seen
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2.7 million still there. Does that count the diaspora?
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No, that's without the diaspora. So it's could be closer to 5 million, uh, if you include the
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diaspora. So, um, especially with this, this talk of, of refugee status and so forth, um,
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that by the way has helped to put a lot of international focus on South Africa. So, so the
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But it's not what you want. I mean, I, I, we're going to get to the policy prescriptions,
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but like, I don't want anyone watching this discussion to say, well, like the answer is we have
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to allow these people to escape this circumstance. You have, you have a very different vision
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than that, but, but the need for that escape is driven by the politics of an individual
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named, uh, named Malema, Julia, Julius Malema. And I think we've got a clip of some of his
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political activity. Well, let's go ahead and roll that.
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Shoot to kill Hamaza. Kill the poor, the farmer. Kill the poor, the farmer. Brr, pa, pa, brr, pa, pa.
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So that is Julius Malema. He used to be the president of the youth league of the ANC, which
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is the governing party in South Africa. He left the governing party because of internal
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faction fighting, not because of policy differences. And then he started his own movement, which
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is ironically called the economic freedom fighters, although they believe economic freedom
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lies through race-based redistribution and not through production. And he's chanting a chant
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that became very well known in South Africa called kill the poor, kill the farmer. The
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word poor is more or less a synonym for Afrikaner. Uh, especially historically, we were known as
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the boers like during the Anglo-Boer war. Um, and then of course kill the poor, kill the
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farmer. In Afrikaans, the word poor literally translates to being to, to the word farmer. Um, and he's
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chanting this at a political rally after making a speech and the speeches would always be along
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the lines of, this is a direct quote from him. All white people are criminals and should
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be treated as such. Um, and we need to slit the throat of whiteness. And he would say things
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like, if you see a beautiful piece of land, go and take it, it's yours. And he would make
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all these extremely, the other comment he made was, was, um, I'm not calling for the slaughter
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of white people, at least for now. And then he explained later that he might one day do
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that. And then after making these speeches, he would then burst into this chant, kill the
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boer, kill the farmer, um, impersonate, you know, making the sounds of imitating the sounds
00:23:30.520
of a machine gun or a firearm, and then, you know, making these gestures. And, and what
00:23:34.900
is quite really concerning or alarming is that it's not a metaphor. So people in the media would
00:23:41.200
say, well, that's just a metaphor. It's just commemorating the struggle and commemorating
00:23:46.100
the revolution, but the farmers are literally being killed and they are literally being killed
00:23:50.800
while he's chanting, go out and kill them. And we've seen that slogan used during some
00:23:56.140
of these farm attacks in, in the worst case we know of, um, an elderly, two elderly women
00:24:01.580
who was a mother and a daughter were attacked on a farm and tortured. And the victims then
00:24:06.100
used their blood to write the words, kill the boer on the wall, uh, the, the farmhouse
00:24:11.800
wall. And there are other, it sounds like they knew the chant. Exactly. They, they know
00:24:16.180
the chant and there has been reported cases of murderers testifying that they were influenced
00:24:20.980
by this chant. And, and then people in the media, also the South African courts, the justice
00:24:26.780
system and the South African government, including the president would keep defending it, keep
00:24:31.740
saying that there's nothing wrong with, with make, with this chant.
00:24:35.500
Vish, what scares us the most that Malema is at least tangentially a part of the
00:24:41.800
political coalition of the majority government, or that he is able to inspire that type of
00:24:52.360
Well, I mean, all aspects of that is just scary as hell. The fact that this guy has already
00:24:57.900
managed to be part of a governing coalition and the fact that he has all this leeway to
00:25:04.420
be able to say stuff like that. But also the thing is, is that especially in our world of
00:25:09.520
this globalized media and content, you know, being globalized, this guy is not just inspiring
00:25:15.900
people in South Africa, but all over the world to pursue this kind of race-based redistributivism
00:25:22.080
and race-based grievance on, you know, what people, you know, should believe that, that they
00:25:28.200
deserve it. You know, that, like you said, that it's become synonymous, that poor and black
00:25:32.920
mean the same thing and rich and white mean the same thing. We see that here everywhere,
00:25:36.880
right? We see that in America. We see that in Western European countries. We even see
00:25:42.660
that dynamic being applied to Israel as a white colonial project, right? And that's why
00:25:48.820
Palestinians are dealing with the problems that they're dealing with. So you see this
00:25:54.380
being solidified and distributed everywhere across earth. But, you know, the funny part
00:25:59.720
about that, and Ernst, maybe you can speak to this and clarify it for our audience, is that
00:26:05.260
the grievance is also a revision of history itself, right? In that the Boer is actually
00:26:13.580
in certain ways indigenous to South Africa, that they were there before the demographic
00:26:20.580
groups that Malema and a lot of these groups that make up the ANC, you know, and their presence
00:26:28.280
in South Africa, that the Boers came before them, right? Can you kind of break that down
00:26:33.140
for us? Yeah. So I think there are two clarifications. One, you're absolutely right to talk about Malema
00:26:38.560
being part of this coalition. I know some people would say that's not true, and I would like
00:26:43.280
to explain why it is true. The reason why people would say it's not true is because he's not
00:26:47.300
part of what we have in South Africa today as a government of national unity that includes
00:26:51.520
several of the opposition parties. He's not part of that. But he is part of what you might
00:26:55.940
call the political elite in South Africa because it's his party, him as an individual and his party
00:27:01.100
are in many ways the tail wagging the dog. They are ideologically aligned with the ruling party
00:27:06.260
and they are putting forth, they want to prove that they are the more radical party.
00:27:10.640
He sounds like the Steve Bannon of South Africa.
00:27:21.960
Yeah, that's exactly right. So his party and him as a person are the ones who've been pushing
00:27:26.580
this expropriation of private property and so forth. And then the government or the ruling party
00:27:31.580
would then follow suit and vote their policies into power. But so that's the thing about the history is,
00:27:38.420
I mean, I'm fascinated by American history also and the founding fathers. And if you read the
00:27:43.700
Federalist papers, John Jay writes in Federalist No. 2 about why America would be, could be united
00:27:50.240
because it shares a history, it shares a culture, it speaks the same language. And there are many
00:27:55.960
things on which Americans in the different states agree, which means that there could be a federation.
00:28:01.740
South Africa doesn't have that. It doesn't have a shared conception of history. It doesn't have a
00:28:05.840
shared culture, and it doesn't have a shared language, and it doesn't have a shared philosophy.
00:28:10.820
And so the Boers have been in South Africa. So my family, we've worked it out. The roots
00:28:18.720
sort of from whom I descend directly was about, it was just a little bit older than George Washington
00:28:25.060
when he came to, he moved to South Africa from Europe. So my personal family has been in South
00:28:32.160
Africa since before the Declaration of Independence. And as a people, we've been for more than a century
00:28:37.840
since before that. So we've been in that country for hundreds of years, almost 400 years. And we
00:28:43.220
became a unique people there. We're not Dutch, we're not Germans, we're not French. We even named
00:28:48.420
ourselves after the continent, we are the Afrikaners. We developed our own language, we have a unique
00:28:53.580
culture, we have a rich treasure chest of literature and philosophy and arts and everything. And all of that,
00:29:00.240
we developed there, which is why we want a solution in South Africa.
00:29:10.140
Okay, all right. That sounded more European than African to me. I don't know. I don't know if I'd
00:29:17.000
sell the language as the leadoff hitter. But it is important to know the history. I doubt that you'll
00:29:22.720
be recognized by any indigenous peoples advocacy groups. Yeah. Answer this question. And I ask it
00:29:29.600
rhetorically. You obviously know I care. I've been covering it all in my program. But why should
00:29:35.140
So I think, firstly, the most important reason is just the basic fundamental principles of justice and
00:29:43.280
Those are violated everywhere. We can't care about everywhere the principles of justice.
00:29:47.500
Yeah. So it is an injustice. But I think if the question is, what is sort of the American
00:29:52.660
interest perspective? I think, firstly, what Vish mentioned already is that America should know
00:29:58.700
that South Africa is not behind but ahead. And what's happening in South Africa today could very
00:30:05.160
well be the future of America if people in America don't learn from what's happening in South Africa.
00:30:10.880
There are also some practical reasons, more practical reasons, such as the fact that the
00:30:16.140
South African government is working very hard against American interest and Western interest
00:30:21.460
in the international arena through BRICS and so forth. Also, because the Afrikaners are a Western
00:30:26.440
community. We're a pro-American. We're a pro-Western nation that lives in South Africa that is being
00:30:31.340
persecuted for precisely that reason. And then also, I think there's also a strong American interest
00:30:36.440
angle in the fact that if South Africa collapses, it will certainly destabilize Africa. Because what's
00:30:41.980
happening at the moment, South Africa is a strong economy for now, and people are actually immigrating
00:30:46.780
south towards the south of Africa. And if that collapses, the immigration will go in the other
00:30:51.280
direction. And it will open the door for China and adversaries of the US to step in and strengthen its grip
00:30:57.200
on the African continent. But I would say, for me, the most important of that is we're a Western nation.
00:31:04.140
We're the last Western outpost on the African continent. And we're indigenous. We're not British
00:31:09.460
people living in South Africa. And we are friends of America. We're friends of Europe. We're friends
00:31:14.820
of the West. We are Westerners. And that's the reason why we are targeted. And what we also see
00:31:19.640
happening recently, for which the fact that I met the club at Budapest, in Budapest is an example of
00:31:25.660
this, that I'm very happy to see that in the Western world or the conservative movement, that people are
00:31:30.680
sort of finding each other and recognizing that even though we have unique problems and threats,
00:31:36.260
we are all Westerners. And we are being targeted because of that fact. And there's this pursuit
00:31:40.840
to destroy Western civilization. And we should support each other where that is under threat.
00:31:46.380
Well, I buy it. But I've heard a very similar argument expressed when I don't buy it, right? I mean,
00:31:52.680
that sounds a lot like something Vladimir Zelensky could have said. Like,
00:31:56.780
I am a Westerner. I am for Western civilization. You should care about me. We were here. Somebody
00:32:03.680
else started picking on us. Send your guns and your weapons. Are you buying the unique societal case
00:32:12.740
that Ernst made as unique to America's interests?
00:32:15.720
Yes. But that's what Ernst is saying is not what Zelensky is saying. He's not saying,
00:32:21.860
send me your weapons, send me your money, send me everything you got. In fact,
00:32:25.700
that they're going out of their way to build their own. They take it, though.
00:32:29.520
They take it. Of course, they take it, but they're not asking, right?
00:32:33.480
Ernst, would you take the HIMARS if we offered them? I'm guessing the answer is yes.
00:32:36.940
Well, we are actually a well-armed nation. What's the strongest weaponry you have?
00:32:41.720
Well, no, it's firearms. It's not. We don't have artillery and things like that.
00:32:47.820
But the point being that actually the mentality that attracts me to the Afrikaner and their plight
00:32:56.100
is that they didn't wait for anyone to come save them, right? They're doing their best to take
00:33:02.500
matters into their own hands and address these problems head on, whether that's addressing them
00:33:08.080
directly or addressing them in a parallel way, creating their own systems, their own institutions.
00:33:13.020
That, I think, is very admirable, very Western, very American, quite frankly.
00:33:18.960
And so I think, obviously, there is this support where, you know, allowing refugees from South
00:33:26.820
Africa, white refugees from South Africa coming here, that allows to put some pressure on the
00:33:32.520
South African government, right? And those kinds of tactics are probably welcome.
00:33:38.700
Right. But I think that that is more welcome than it's like, I don't think we're going to be
00:33:47.840
Sounds like they've already been invaded, is kind of the problem.
00:33:51.340
Yeah, no, but you are asking for international recognition. And tell us what that looks like in
00:33:59.780
So, we have this philosophy, and it's sort of historically part of our culture, this slogan
00:34:04.880
that says, a nation saves itself. Or in Afrikaans, it would be, a folk rett omself.
00:34:10.340
Work in as much Afrikaner language from this point forward as you feel necessary.
00:34:14.860
And so, we don't want other countries to save us. We don't want America to, you know, take...
00:34:22.920
What we want is, the first thing is very easy. And it's recognition that our pursuit is a legitimate
00:34:30.920
That you aren't some radical, separatist, terrorist group that the South African government
00:34:37.480
Exactly that. And also, I mean, we've been vilified for decades now. And that's why we are so grateful
00:34:43.640
for the remarks by President Trump. And work that, like you're doing, and what the club is doing,
00:34:48.340
the Young Republicans Club, is recognizing that there's something worth talking about.
00:34:52.680
Because for decades, we were, you know, we were the apartheid guys. And, you know, we're just sort
00:34:56.940
of two degrees away from Nazis. And so, we want recognition that what we are working for is
00:35:02.960
legitimate. And I also think, with the tariffs and the interest that the President has in South
00:35:08.200
Africa, I really think the United States could, through very little effort, contribute to a more
00:35:16.420
Anytime someone says contribute to a more sustainable situation, our wallets get lighter. So, tell us,
00:35:21.960
be as granular as you feel is necessary. But tell us what the heck that means.
00:35:26.340
Okay. So, you mean what would more sustainable look like?
00:35:29.920
Well, that was just like, I didn't understand. That's like corporatist talk.
00:35:33.560
Okay. Let's make it very practical. So, in terms of the problem in South Africa that we need to get
00:35:38.200
to is we need to get a more decentralized political system. That's the goal that we want to achieve.
00:35:43.780
And the way we see that happening is it's a very big country. It's a very diverse country.
00:35:47.340
And the different nations that live there should be able to govern themselves.
00:35:51.160
So, regional autonomy is, in two words, what you see as the end use here.
00:35:58.480
It could be regional autonomy, yes. There are other forms of self-governance, whether it's a
00:36:02.540
federation, whether it's cultural autonomy like they have in countries like Estonia and Finland and
00:36:09.060
And what do you think would be the South African government's strongest argument in response to
00:36:17.520
They would say, I think in terms of international law, they would frame it as they have territorial
00:36:22.460
autonomy over South Africa and they decide. They would then argue that South Africa is a democracy
00:36:27.760
and they are the people. The state represents the people and what they decide is what the people want.
00:36:36.400
Well, except for what is not considered is South Africa is very far from homogenous.
00:36:40.940
It's something that's the equivalent of saying that what the European Union decides is what the
00:36:45.420
Hungarians want because South Africa is big and diverse and it's inhabitable.
00:36:49.760
Or it's like saying what the country wants in representing Donald Trump might not necessarily be what
00:37:01.560
Well, you know, that's interesting that you say regional autonomy is kind of what's the desired
00:37:06.440
end goal here. My understanding, South Africa being a very interesting country is, doesn't it have
00:37:12.160
three capitals that was meant to kind of give it this regional autonomous sort of structure to its
00:37:19.740
government? And if that's the case, how did it become centralized if in its original outlay,
00:37:25.680
it's literally got three capitals for three different regions?
00:37:28.200
Yeah. So the three capitals are the seats of the executive branch, which is Pretoria,
00:37:33.380
the legislative branch, which is Cape Town and the judicial branch, which is Plumfontein with the free
00:37:38.880
state. Theoretically, you could read the South African constitution as providing for a decentralized
00:37:44.180
system. But and that is one of the catches. And again, one of the important lessons for America and for
00:37:50.140
the rest of the world is that especially when you deal with a country that is as diverse as South Africa,
00:37:54.740
people have completely different outlooks on matters of constitutionalism and how to interpret
00:37:59.960
very basic phrases in the South African constitution. So when the constitution says
00:38:04.960
the government can expropriate your property when it's in public interest, someone has to interpret
00:38:10.320
that and say, when is it in public interest for the government to do that? And the classical Western
00:38:16.480
line would be something like, you know, there's a highway to be built and there's a house in the middle.
00:38:20.780
They're not going to do this with a highway or there's a war and they need to build a military
00:38:24.020
base or something like that. But the South African line, because it's a it's a race,
00:38:28.040
nationalist, socialist government, their line would be it's not in public interest for white people to
00:38:32.980
earn property or to earn as much property as they do. And so in the name of public interest,
00:38:37.780
that's how we interpret the constitution. Therefore, we're going to do that.
00:38:42.320
Wow. Well, is there a compensation when people's property is taken away?
00:38:46.220
So to date, there has been. And it's an interesting fact, there was a process of land
00:38:52.600
claims in South Africa as a result of peoples or communities who've had land dispossessed from
00:38:58.500
them in the past. And that has been settled, like almost all of those cases have been settled already.
00:39:03.100
But what happened then was the vast majority and I mean, like more than 90 percent of the people
00:39:07.840
who filed such claims actually said they don't really want the land, they want money. So they would
00:39:12.860
prefer financial compensation. And the reason why that's a big deal is because those in power
00:39:17.720
in South Africa, they don't like that outcome because they want 80 percent of land to be owned
00:39:22.560
by by black people. But then the black people who are filing the land claims actually say,
00:39:27.040
actually, I don't want the land, I want the money. And so this new process, that's why they signed
00:39:31.620
this new expropriation bill, which says that they want the power to be able to take people's
00:39:36.260
stuff without compensation. Again, when it's in the public interest and they determine when it's public
00:39:41.840
interest. That is remarkable that actually that actually the compensation is what they've got
00:39:49.200
to get rid of to make sure there's an actual transmitting of the of the real property interest.
00:39:55.480
Well, because I mean, it's farmland too, right? What do you grow on it? Like, tell us a little
00:40:00.000
bit about the land itself. Like what? How should Americans think about this? South Africa, again,
00:40:04.560
it's very big and also sort of from a climate perspective. So South Africa is big on wheat,
00:40:13.520
you know, corn is big on where I grew up as a more subtropical area where people farm with bananas
00:40:18.600
and avocados and it's and there's cattle. So there's farming in everything in South Africa
00:40:26.600
I'm so excited when we get our Meriwether Farms shipments and you get a beautiful piece of ribeye.
00:40:32.680
Look, look at that marbling. Now I take it out of the package, let it get down to room temperature.
00:40:37.840
All I've got on here is a little salt, a little pepper, and then a little avocado oil.
00:40:42.080
And then I've had my pan preheating with a little oil.
00:40:44.820
Head to meriwetherfarms.com and enter promo code Matt G for 15% off your first order.
00:40:58.200
Well, that's what makes it so this situation, as you stated, because it's not just any land,
00:41:04.500
it's farmland, right? And if you have this land claims plot process in place and these people
00:41:10.060
come and say, yeah, I claimed that land, but I'm just claiming it so I could actually sell it off for
00:41:14.520
the cash that I get from it, right? And then who does that farmland go to at the end, right?
00:41:20.820
And it's not going back to the farmer. It's not going to the person who's making the clay.
00:41:26.440
Is it still productive? I wonder when they take the land, are they still growing weed and feeding people?
00:41:30.920
Actually, the South African government have said, according to their own statistics,
00:41:36.340
more than 90% of those farms fail. So that's their own program.
00:41:40.840
And then what happens is the commercial farms become subsistence farms.
00:41:45.060
And subsistence farms become squatter camps. And so even though, according to their own
00:41:52.780
Is that the goal, to turn productive, beautiful farms into squatter camps?
00:41:56.440
That's what it seems like. I think they don't care about that. But their response to that is,
00:42:01.200
actually, we should just try this policy a little bit harder. We should make it a bit more radical
00:42:05.360
and sort of double down on the policy that has resulted in this and be more aggressive.
00:42:10.000
And then we're going to reach the utopia someday. Just wait.
00:42:13.020
Well, you don't have to look that far to see where that went. I mean, Zimbabwe, or, you know,
00:42:18.000
as Rhodesia, as we say, we say Rhodesia, don't we?
00:42:24.020
That's right. So just look at Rhodesia. It was the breadbasket of Africa at its time.
00:42:31.920
And then as soon as Mugabe comes in and this revolution happens, it's now the hyperinflation
00:42:38.680
through the roof and the land is not productive. You don't even need to go that far to see where
00:42:43.580
that road takes you. And somehow these people that are running South Africa, they see it fit
00:42:48.920
to do it to themselves. So we've gone over the diagnosis of what's happening. I think Ernst has
00:42:53.840
laid out the trajectory. He has identified where you want to go, which is more of a federalist type
00:43:00.960
system, less centralized power. Maybe it's autonomous republics or semi-autonomous republics.
00:43:06.740
Let's spend some time now on the strategy to get there because you've pointed out you can't vote
00:43:11.360
your way to this outcome. So how are you going to get there?
00:43:15.360
So I need to re-emphasize that we need to get there ourselves. I'm not here in America to ask
00:43:21.900
America to make that happen or people in America.
00:43:23.920
We couldn't anyway. We couldn't beat goat herders in Afghanistan. So I wouldn't pick us, honestly.
00:43:30.340
So I think one of our biggest challenges currently is that as Afrikaners, we are spread out all over
00:43:37.120
the country. So we're sort of a minority everywhere, even though 2.7 million people are a lot of people.
00:43:41.800
But if you're spread out over a territory twice the size of Texas, it makes it quite difficult.
00:43:48.280
So we need to, and we are doing that, is sort of identify certain areas where we become a
00:43:53.380
majority, where we create some de facto realities just through self-governance. And so that is
00:44:06.740
Yeah, create your own ethnic blocks, essentially.
00:44:09.880
Yeah. I mean, well, then you get representation. You get to like kind of see some mayoral posts,
00:44:15.940
maybe. So you go full Minnesota Somali. Do you think there's an interest in Afrikaners to have
00:44:22.900
Yes. Yeah, it's partly happening more in the west of the country. So there's a lot of talk
00:44:30.100
recently about Western Cape independence, which is, you know, the area where Cape Town is
00:44:34.380
settled. It's sort of different than the rest of the country. And some surveys...
00:44:38.160
You guys are trying to not look like white people and you went to the beach? I mean, I don't
00:44:43.700
know. You picked the one place you were going to concentrate and it was the most beautiful
00:44:49.940
No, no. But then there's the Warania movement up north in the Northern Cape, which is sort
00:44:54.360
of a semi-desert area. It's 30% of the territory of the country, but it's 2% of the population
00:45:01.060
that live there. So it's sort of the west of the country is not nearly as inhabited as the
00:45:05.760
east. Sort of the more, the better climate is on the east. But there's this movement to
00:45:10.240
build sort of an autonomous community in the north, in the Northern Cape.
00:45:15.220
You know, they went out to Utah and Arizona because it was the last place the army wouldn't
00:45:20.260
And then they concentrated power and now they basically run...
00:45:25.160
Okay. So there's the, yeah, there's the Utah strategy.
00:45:28.200
And, and what do you think the timeline is, Ernst, for trying to pull together people for
00:45:33.180
We need to do that quicker. But what I should stress that when we talk about something like
00:45:38.700
this, we cannot say that therefore it's acceptable for the government to be doing what it is doing
00:45:44.300
currently. So we need to sort of fight this on two levels. We need to fight these very destructive
00:45:48.700
policies that are applicable everywhere in the country. And I think America can, can do
00:45:53.020
a lot in helping with that. So for example, with the tariffs to say that there are certain
00:45:57.520
preconditions that should be, should be set to trade agreements with the South African
00:46:00.680
government, such as that property rights have to be protected, that the race laws should
00:46:05.820
Will that work? Like, will the elites that run the government ultimately choose the GDP
00:46:17.240
Yeah. But, but they are very desperate for money because it's sort of a house of cards
00:46:23.060
in South Africa at the moment with the social grant system. So if you add up the social grants
00:46:27.680
payouts with government salaries, with government debt, it's already more than 80% of government,
00:46:33.800
government expenditures. And that's just growing. So they can't, they can't fund this project
00:46:39.340
anymore. And so they're very desperate for money. And we saw that.
00:46:42.240
And they rely on U.S. trade to fill the coffees.
00:46:54.000
Well, there are some other practical things that I think would be very symbolic, I think also
00:46:57.620
for America. South Africa is in a way DEI capital of the world. We call it BEE, what you
00:47:03.440
call DEI. BEE is Black Economic Empowerment, but it's not empowerment at all. It's just
00:47:09.840
socialist policies. And so one thing that the American government could do through this
00:47:14.820
process of ethically sourced goods, like, you know, not importing stuff that was built
00:47:20.140
through child labor and so forth, to say, but products that have been produced as a result
00:47:26.580
of this policy is not ethical. And so we're going to exempt companies that don't participate
00:47:31.800
in that process from tariffs. Something like that would have a massive impact in South
00:47:38.200
Well, it would certainly have a massive impact in any autonomous republic that then could
00:47:45.660
Well, I mean, that's... You get into that territory, but I mean, what else can we do to help?
00:47:53.040
You know, I think that there is some point to that, like, oh, if this was made with DEI,
00:47:58.520
we're not importing it. Or if this wasn't made with DEI, it'll skip the tariff, right?
00:48:03.440
Something like that. I mean, aside from, like I said, invading Pretoria.
00:48:12.280
And there is a component of our trade paradigm that is getting to, like, more interest-based
00:48:17.060
and less values-based. But I think this, you can make a real argument that it's interest-based
00:48:23.260
trade policy as well, because of what you mentioned earlier about BRICS. I think that's a huge
00:48:29.400
component of all this. South Africa really moving toward Russia and China and an alternate
00:48:35.160
economic system. And if they're going to do that, I think there have to be some consequences.
00:48:40.920
I learned in politics early, if you treat your friends and enemies the same way, there's no
00:48:45.440
That's right. And President Trump already said he's coming after anybody who's talking
00:48:50.080
about BRICS, right? And so if that's the case, then this is kind of a prime example,
00:48:54.920
right? We don't want this, like you said, the last Western outpost in Africa to go down
00:49:02.020
because of all these bad actors now trying to destroy this beautiful community through racist
00:49:12.080
Other than the United States, what's the most important country to really understand this
00:49:17.940
and share a vision of more autonomized regional power in South Africa?
00:49:24.640
Like other countries outside, other global entity. Is it, you know, is it Russia? Is it China?
00:49:32.980
Yeah. Well, who would you want? Like in your corner, you would obviously take the United
00:49:44.740
I think for symbolic reasons, the Dutch. I think it's very sad. And obviously, this is
00:49:53.180
not applicable to everyone, but everyone in the Netherlands, but it's very sad how the
00:49:56.860
Dutch have sort of abandoned the Africana people and the Dutch government in particular.
00:50:00.720
But we have very good friends in the Netherlands. And the fact that we dissent predominantly from
00:50:07.060
the Dutch, I think, I think the Dutch, I would, I would go as far as say that they have a
00:50:11.720
responsibility, but even if they don't want, if that's a too strong word, I think, I think
00:50:16.220
it would be very appropriate for the Dutch to take a stance at, at what is happening.
00:50:19.620
But you're not satisfied or pleased with the trajectory of that right now?
00:50:23.900
No, I think it's going to happen because of the, the winds of change happening in Europe
00:50:30.000
With countries becoming increasingly conservative. I think we're going to get, there's a lot
00:50:34.660
of support from countries like Hungary, which we never expected. Um, and some from countries
00:50:39.340
like England and so forth, but, but I think, I think it would be important for, for us,
00:50:43.820
for the Dutch to take a firmer stance about what's happening in South Africa.
00:50:47.700
Well, Ernst, it has been a thoroughly enjoyable and informative discussion. Vish, do you feel,
00:50:53.220
did you know all of this already? Or have you, have you learned a little along the way too?
00:50:56.680
I just, I can't wait to visit South Africa because I've been learning so much about it and I want
00:51:01.360
to see this place for myself. I hear it's absolutely beautiful.
00:51:03.520
Well, when we, when we can stand in solidarity with the Afrikaners, we're, uh, we're not sure
00:51:09.740
if it'd be the safest place for you these days, especially after this podcast. But again,
00:51:14.020
very much appreciate it. We, we wish you well, if folks want to follow this movement,
00:51:19.560
Yeah. So, so they can look us up on social media. I represent a, a think tank and an advocacy
00:51:24.680
group that is working that you mentioned. We're working towards a better political system.
00:51:28.300
It's called Lex Libertas, which is Latin for law and freedom. Um, and our website is
00:51:33.160
so indigenously African to go with the Latin, by the way, just quite the chef's case.
00:51:37.980
I don't hate it. Yeah. Um, and our website is org.za. So it's Lex Libertas.org.za and people
00:51:45.560
can follow us there and support us also through the website.
00:51:48.300
Really a great treatise you have out now that lays out this plan, reclaiming freedom published
00:51:54.180
this month by Lex Libertas. And, uh, we enjoyed going through it and really understanding what the
00:51:59.740
path forward is. And we hope it's a productive one. Thank you very much. It was a pleasure to
00:52:03.160
be on the show. Thank you. We'll be back next week with another episode of Anchorman.
00:52:07.560
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