The Anchormen Show with Matt Gaetz ｜ Moral Hazards
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Summary
Vishal Burra was the founding producer of Steve Bannon's War Room, a member of my congressional staff, and the congressional staff of George Santos, and now is a producer on the Matt Gaetz Show. He tells us about his time working for one of the most influential yet mercurial figures on the political right: Steve Bannon.
Transcript
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Now, it's time for the Anchorman Podcast with Matt Gaetz and Dan Ball.
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Welcome back to Anchorman. It was last week. We had an epic show with my good friend Steve
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Bannon. So you're going to want to check that out. It was our most successful Anchorman to
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date. We went over politics and jail and how oddly the two go together. But tonight,
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I am joined by my on-again, off-again employee, my one and only Indian guru, Vish Burra. Vish
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was the founding producer of Steve Bannon's War Room. He was a member of my congressional staff
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and the congressional staff of George Santos, and now is a producer on the Matt Gaetz Show.
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So, Vish, we went mano a mano with Bannon last week. And as folks consult that episode,
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I thought maybe we could start out our conversation tonight kind of with your work for a guy who's
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one of the most influential yet mercurial figures on the political right. You were his producer,
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You know, I love my experience with Steve because I learned so much of the alternative tactics or sort
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of these dark art tactics of how you deal with the media and how you influence and how you get not
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just stories out there, but how you get certain frames around stories out there. And one of the
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crystallized moments in my memories of working for Steve Bannon was when I was driving him once to New
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York during the COVID pandemic. I think it was around April. So, this is one of the first times
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we're even getting out of the house to go somewhere that wasn't, you know, the Washington, D.C. barracks
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or the war room. And I remember he was on the phone. He was taking phone calls the whole ride up
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to New York. And it was a lot of phone calls with the media. Now, some of the people he was talking to
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were conservative reporters and some of them that he was talking to were liberal reporters.
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But what was fascinating and what I learned that day was how to make sure that on both sides of the
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story, you're the center player in it. And it actually doesn't. And the way he pitched it to
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them was he would get on the phone with the conservative reporters and he would, you know,
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kind of describe what's going on and explain himself or frame himself as the hero in the
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story to the conservative reporters. Then when he would go and get the liberal reporters on the phone,
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he would serve up the same story again, but he would portray himself as the villain, right? As the guy
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who's stopping something or the guy who's, you know, thwarting the liberals' plans on this by
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helping the conservatives with X, Y, and Z. And what I understood then is that he was giving both
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sides what they wanted at the end of the day to run the story. The conservatives needed Steve Bannon
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as the hero in their story. And the liberals needed Steve Bannon as the villain in their story to run
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it. And therefore, he would play these narratives off each other. And at the end, in both stories,
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he comes out as the center player. And I thought, wow, that is just a fascinating technique on how to
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make sure that on both sides, you're being covered. And the, for him, the frame didn't matter. He knows
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the liberals need a villain for their story. So he's happy to play it for them. Well, and you know,
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when we think about the great stories of humanity, don't we remember the villains as much as we
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remember the heroes? Like in Peter Pan, who's the better character, Peter Pan or Captain Hook?
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Oh, it's got to be Captain Hook. You remember the Lex Luthor energy as much, you know? All the great
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Batman villains. The Joker is definitely more famous than Batman. And so is there a part of that
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that is part of Bannonism, that it's okay to be the villain or the anti-hero so long as you're in the
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story? Oh, absolutely. It's not just that, but I think that that kind of mentality has evolved even
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really after the Batman, the Dark Knight movie where Joker, you know, Heath Ledger had this
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historical performance. And then the Avengers movie where Thanos, you know, Infinity War,
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Thanos becomes this revered villain. And I think that the American public has had more of an appetite
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for these anti-hero types. The Sopranos. Yeah. And the Sopranos. Breaking Bad. Yes. And we've had,
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I think, more of an appetite. Are we in the golden age of the anti-hero? Well, I think it's been. Is
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Donald Trump one? Well, I think it's actually the inverse of that. It's because so many of our heroes
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or our perceived heroes have disappointed us. And so now I think that there is an appetite for
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Americans to want to identify with an anti-hero who gets things done, even if he's perceived as the
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bad guy. For them, it doesn't matter because he does what he or he believes in something and he gets
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it done any way possible. And that's kind of the role that I see Steve Bannon playing. But not only
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that, playing that up and serving it to an audience who may never, ever give him the benefit of the
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doubt of being the hero. Right. And so he says, you know what? In your story, no matter what I say,
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I will be a villain. So I'm just going to play that up to make sure that that's the story that gets
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through. I have seen members of Congress attempt this strategy and they believe that they can kind
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of romance the stone with the media, that they can charm the Daily Beast or the Washington Post or
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the New York Times. And most of them can't. They don't have the ability that a Bannon does or frankly,
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a Trump does. I mean, remember, Trump was this charismatic, charming figure to the media all the way up
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until he became president of the United States. And, you know, I didn't like talking to the leftist
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reporters. My staff would always say, oh, man, you know, if you talk to them, they hear your
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perspective. Even if it's a bad story, you'll at least get your voice in it. And I took a, like,
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in my heart, my approach was all these people are going to do is try to make the work we're doing
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look bad. And so why lend credibility to the reporting by lending your voice to it? That's not
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a Bannon perspective. No, hell no. In fact, again, the mentality is I know, I know that I will never
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be a hero in your story and you're going to write the story. So you know what? Let me go in there,
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lend voice to it by standing up for what I believe in. And if I have to even sound, because what they
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really want is that soundbite, right? That soundbite or that voice, that quote that they can go and run
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and say, look at this bad guy, right? My theory on that learning from Bannon is give it to them.
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Give it to them because there's nothing you can say to make them see you as the hero. So definitely
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make sure they remember you as the villain, the bad guy, the one to fear, right? Because that
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actually has way more of a psychological effect in their future actions against you, right? I think
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that that is the theory of the case. And I actually think it works. And I kind of have
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relationships with liberal reporters in the same way. Yeah, you love a little bit of liberal
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interaction. Actually, go to a little Vishborough Jordan Klepper. What are you going to miss out on
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if this mandate prevents you from doing it? I just tried to get some Thai. I love Thai food. I just
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tried to get some Thai food around the corner. They told me I couldn't sit down and eat unless I had a
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vaccine mandate. Now, I believe things like that were said to Martin Luther King when he tried to
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walk into places to eat. But they said they had a different reason to make him a second class
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citizen. Compare yourself to MLK are big words for a guy wearing 80s B-boy jeans. Actually, these are
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not 80s B-boy jeans. They are new true religions. I know you can't tell because you're a Democrat and
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you can't afford these things. All right. Well, enjoy. I hope you don't get sick. Thank you. I still
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haven't yet. Have you gotten COVID? I did. That sucks. Too bad for you. That's the empathy that
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the young Republicans bring. Thank you. So that was an interesting opportunity you had to face down
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Comedy Central's best. Yeah. And that is a great example, actually, of that mentality because
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Jordan Klepper is there trying to villainize me about not taking the COVID vaccine, right? Because
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I'll get sick and I'll get all these other people sick. Doesn't it look ridiculous today?
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Well, it's not just that. But the reason why that clip went viral is because at the end of the
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very clip, he says, I hope you don't get sick. And I say, well, you know, I still haven't gotten
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COVID yet to this day, even though I haven't taken the COVID vaccine. Have you, a person who has taken
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the COVID vaccine? And he says, yeah, I have actually gotten COVID. I'm like, oh, well, sucks too bad for
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you. And then he accuses me of not being empathetic. The guy was making fun of my genes, right? And my
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aptitude and understanding the founding fathers. And then he says, oh, you don't have sympathy for
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me because I got sick with COVID. Meanwhile, I'm telling this guy, hey, I didn't take the vaccine
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and I still haven't gotten sick. Maybe there's something wrong with your case, but he's not
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going to want to hear that. He just wants his soundbite. And you know what? I just want my soundbite.
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And so I gave it to him. And I think that that exchange is one of the ones that put me on the map
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in terms of the map. A little bit. Yeah. I have a little spot, a little flag for Vishborough.
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All right. So we were cutting it up earlier today on one of the big issues shaping the debate on
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Capitol Hill over this reconciliation bill. And it's the Medicaid program. And there are three major
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drivers of the federal budget. You've got social security, Medicaid, and Medicare. And Republicans
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and Democrats are in pretty universal agreement that social security and Medicare are benefits that
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people have earned, that they've paid into, and that they ought to receive because it helps a lot
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of elderly folks and folks that can't go out and generate disposable income. Medicaid is where I
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would do the cutting. And really, you have to understand in Washington, D.C., a cut doesn't actually
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mean less money. Okay. When we say cut, only in Washington speak, a cut is a reduction in expected
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future outlays. Right. So if you're spending X dollars today and the expectation is you're going
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to spend 100 times X 10 years from now, if you only spend 50 times X 10 years from now, they view that as
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a cut. Right. Which is absurd. So no one's actually talking about cutting Medicaid. They're talking about
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reducing the expenditures in the future growth of the program. And I'll lay out some of my critiques of
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Medicaid. I believe that states aren't given the opportunity to design their own Medicaid systems
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because the federal government requires you to meet certain requirements in order to get the drawdown.
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The way Obamacare dumped a lot of able-bodied people into Medicaid, that was Obamacare. You had to be
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single mom, below the poverty line, or indexed there too in some way. The disabled people who are
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physically disabled and disabled otherwise get Medicaid benefits. But now under Obamacare, we've
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put able-bodied adults into this program. And those able-bodied adults are now crowding out a system
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that was intended for the vulnerable. And so the big fight is whether or not to have a work requirement
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on Medicaid and whether or not really to send a lot of the Medicaid program to the states.
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You have posited the theory that the Republican messaging that we're about to hear from Eric
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Burleson is bad. First, we'll go to Burleson and then get Vish's reaction.
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The people that truly need Medicaid, we're focused on making sure that that program, if anything,
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is lifted up and made sound for the people that are the vulnerable population,
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the age, the blind, the disabled. To make sure that it's available for them, we've got to get,
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you know, frankly, I call them the deadbeats, the people that are the young, able-bodied,
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working-age adults that should be out there working and contributing, but for whatever reason
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All right. He says they're deadbeats. What say you?
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This is the most politically tone-deaf messaging that I have heard, especially coming off the heels
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of Donald Trump's historic 2024 victory, mainly fueled by young men, right? We worked all of 2023
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and 2024 to get young men to come vote for us. And the first people we decide to attack when we need
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to go and cut Medicaid is we're going to go and attack young men for being on Medicaid, right?
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Do you think that the reason young men voted for Donald Trump was so they could get Medicaid
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No, not at all. But I don't think that they signed up to be on the receiving end of being
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villainized as the people that need to be gotten off of Medicaid. Now, I'm not saying that-
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Can you say that people need to be gotten off of Medicaid without villainizing them?
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Because I'm not villainizing them. I'm just saying I don't want to pay for your health care.
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There are a lot of people who aren't villains who I don't want to pay for their health care.
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Well, I think that then if that's the case, then why is it that young men are singled out?
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By the way, why are you genderizing this? Young women are treated the same way.
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Well, no, actually no, because if you go and watch those clips of all these members talking
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about it, they say, oh no, Medicaid is meant for single mothers and they play the compassion
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No, it doesn't treat single mothers differently. This bill doesn't treat single mothers differently
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than it treats single men. Now, you may critique the messaging, but in the actual bill, my sense
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is it was all able-bodied. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but is there a reason why
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able-bodied people shouldn't have to meet a work requirement? And the work requirements
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are so soft, Fish. The work requirements are 20 hours a week. When you worked for Steve Bannon,
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you could have met the work requirement in a day. Okay. Yeah. For a month. But by the
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way, I get, I get that. But I also, I believe the number is something like 65% of people on
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Medicaid are working either part-time or full-time. Sure. Well, I will concede the numbers I pulled
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about 12% of the Medicaid population is, is in this basket we're talking about, right? It could
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be 16. There's kind of some floating numbers depending on, on where you index the year. But
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why in the world shouldn't you view that as an enormous pot, repository for savings? Because
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there are other pots, I think that we can go after to make savings. Namely, how many illegal
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aliens are on Medicaid, right? They meet the work requirement. Well, but that's, but that's
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what I'm saying. You're telling me that they should be thrown off. I agree. But why is it
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the message in starting there? Well, I think in a lot of ways it has. I don't think so.
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But the Democrats haven't attacked for that. You see, maybe that's a smart tactical play
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on the Democrats' part. But Republicans have put downward pressure on the ability of states
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to sign up, you know, every illegal alien that just jumped the border. Where they're being
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attacked is on the Medicaid expansion population under Obamacare. But you're saying that those
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people ought to, you know, ought to receive that. I know. It's not that I think that they
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ought to receive it. I just think that it's, this is politically tone deaf to attack them
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for it. We don't want, I don't want able-bodied men on Medicaid. I don't want able-bodied women
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on Medicaid. Okay. But the question we should be asking is why are those people on Medicaid
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in the first place? And if I don't see, look, there's that, but also underemployment, but
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like underemployment, right? And now, and issues like that. If we're not cutting H-1B visas
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in this same bill, if we're not like cutting all the things or codifying President Trump's
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re-industrialization executive orders and stuff like this, if you're not codifying that, but
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your main concern is booting the, you know, the able-bodied men on the bill to go because they're
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being lazy playing Xbox in their mom's basement. Which plenty are, by the way. Well, and you know
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what? I'd love to see a demographic outlay on that. You know what I mean? But, but I think that
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this is, I don't, I don't, I think that there is a lot of non-white Americans who are, who are
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actually fitting that criteria. And instead they're just lumping every young man in America
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into this, uh, Democrat, into this, this bucket. And I think that's also wrong.
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You're making an argument about politics. Let me, let me posit this. The psychology, I was once a
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young man. And so I have experience with this. I'm somewhat of an expert. Uh, when you're a young
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man, you don't, you don't think about your healthcare coverage. There's not like that. There's not a wide
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swath of men under the age of 35 that when they walked into the voting booth made a choice based
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on what they thought would be better for their, their health insurance coverage. Maybe they voted
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based on what they thought was better for their physical health, but not like the insurance coverage
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payment for it. So I don't think your argument lands because I don't, I don't think that the
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political impact of it is felt even if you don't, even if you feel attacked. No, I, I, it's not,
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it's not that I feel. I'm not on Medicaid, but I'm a, I'm a, I'm a working guy.
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I don't lose on Medicaid. 38% of Californians. That's wild. That is wild. 38% of Californians
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are on Medicaid. Does that discriminate against legal and illegal? That's all. That's the whole
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kit and caboodle. And it, it, what it does is it crowds out the Medicaid program for people who
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really need it. And I am not against Medicaid. I don't believe we should eliminate Medicaid. I
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actually think we should make it stronger, but you don't make Medicaid stronger by taking people
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who have paid taxes in America, lived in America their whole lives and put them behind the newest
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arrivals to our country. I agree. Yeah. We're, we're in agreement on that. Um, there is some
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tension in, uh, what we're saying and what I was saying earlier about sending it all to the states
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because, because let's break this down. I actually would just block grant the program, send it to the
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states and pretty much let them do what they want. I am that much of a federalist. Now in places like
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California, they're still going to sign up the illegals, right? They're still going to pay for
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the transsexual surgeries on Medicaid. They're still going to do all that weird stuff in other
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states. They won't make those mistakes. And I actually think that's okay in federalism. I think
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that you've, you do need, uh, to show success and failure so that the excess, the success can be
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appreciated, modeled, nurtured and developed. So if you, if you were like emperor for a day on this
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Medicaid program, would you block grant it without strings or would you make it the conservative fever
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dream of, you know, no transsexual surgeries, no funding for the illegal aliens, none of this,
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you know, abortion tourism that, that is, uh, flourishing? Oh yeah, no, I would put a ton of
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strings on it. Uh, that in that, in that way with the block grants, right? I I'm federalists. Yeah.
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Then it's a categorical grant. It's not a block grant. People like block grants and then do this.
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The definition of a block grant is you give them the block of money and then leave them alone.
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What you're describing as a categorical grant. Oh yeah. Well, okay. Then that's what it is,
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right? I would, I would put a ton of strings on it because look at what, how, what we're,
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you know, tangentially related as the salt, uh, deductions on that too. Like when you have
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states going, uh, buck wild in terms of spending collections, and then the federal government
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is subsidizing this and you have, you know, red staters with responsible policies subsidizing
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some of this stuff too. If those salted deductions are in place or the caps are raised or whatever,
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like eventually these blue states are going to run back to the fed and ask guys like you from Florida
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to subsidize it again or pay for it again or bail them out. Right. And so I don't believe
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that these states are ever going to be responsible with it. That's why I would rather do categorical
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grants. If you've just tuned in and have heard Vish Burra talk about salt deductions, he's not giving
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you the latest advice he got from his cardiologist. This is actually a policy issue that is being
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resolved in the reconciliation legislation. It stands for state and local taxes and in blue states
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like Illinois and California and New York, people are able to deduct those taxes from their federal
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income taxes. Now, the reason Floridians like myself find that unfair is that we didn't choose
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to elect people to charge those taxes. We, we view, uh, an income tax at the state level commensurate
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with a violation of the Geneva Convention in the state of Florida. And so we, uh, we don't think
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that's fair. Now New Yorkers and Californians would say we are not like on par recipients. It's
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we're donor states to other places that have other larger population, you know, they have other
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infrastructure needs and, and, and other, uh, federal government workforce needs. So, uh, I don't know,
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man, I think that the way they've resolved this with Elise Stefanik getting in there and creating this
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$40,000 cap for people earning under half a million. I don't love it. Uh, I think that it is,
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uh, uh, probably, you know, less fair to Floridians than the tax cuts and jobs act that
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president Trump previously passed. But if it leaves everybody a little uncomfortable and cobbles
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together the votes, is that, are you good with that as a landing? You know what? 40,000, I'm not,
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I'm not against that. Right. But you go and talk to those New Yorkers, that 40,000 isn't enough,
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right? Well, it tells us it's too much. Right. Maybe that's why it's the future of a good deal.
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Well, and, and I hope so. Right. But, but they're still upset about that number and it's not really
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about income taxes. It's really about property taxes, right? The, the, what they're trying to do
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is they're trying to alleviate the, or provide relief to the rich members in their districts,
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right? That have over a hundred thousand dollars in property tax bills. Right. Right. It isn't for
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people. Right. No. In these middle class, my middle class constituents, right? Like, you know,
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rep Lawler, it's, they're not middle class, right? 40,000 will do just fine for a middle class person
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who owns a home in New York, but it will not do well for his Westchester district or for George
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Santos's New York three, right? Uh, the gold coast where those people are banging down the doors on
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salt or anybody on long Island for that matter. That's about the property taxes. And that is
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really where they're, that's where these people get the gall to say we need, you know, an eight percent,
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eight, uh, eight times, 10 times raise on the salt cap from 10 K to a hundred K because those
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multimillion dollar homes are the ones with a over a hundred K tax bills. Bingo. The third big issue
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that everyone's fighting over is the repeal of the green new deal tax credits. And, um, there are
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voices on the Republican side looking at some of the features of the green new deal and saying, well,
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we don't totally hate this part or that part. And, um, you know, I, uh, think that that is really at
00:23:32.800
odds with how pretty much every Republican campaigned. I don't remember a single Republican campaigning on
00:23:38.160
this stuff and yet it's causing a little hiccup, like percentage wise, how much of the green new
00:23:42.860
deal has to be repealed before you consider that a frontline positive effect of the big, beautiful
00:23:48.500
bill. 100%. Right. I'm a, the green new deal is not only is it a total scam, but the whole campaign
00:23:55.960
leading up to us getting the white house and the majority in the house and the Senate was drill,
00:24:03.080
baby drill, baby drill, energy independence. And it was all about energy. Right. And now you're talking
00:24:09.340
about recodifying or keeping in the provisions of forever, by the way, for forever of this never be
00:24:16.100
repealed. Right. So this is just another farce from the house. And I, I, I'm really upset that this is, that
00:24:25.520
we have another example coming up of Republicans campaigning on one thing and doing a totally different
00:24:31.380
thing, especially on the green new scam, you know, for the last four years, we've heard every single
00:24:38.300
line and derogatory term thrown into this green new deal thing and associating it with AOC and Bernie
00:24:45.220
Sanders and all these people. And now once you have the power, they're like, you know what, actually
00:24:50.120
some parts of this is not terrible. This is a, this is a red, redux of 2016, the healthcare. Yeah.
00:24:56.060
It's got very like Obamacare energy to it. Yeah. Yeah. That's what, and again, and, and, but, and if
00:25:02.880
this, if this passes, I mean, look, come 2026, those midterms, if we lose the majority, I mean,
00:25:12.280
we could just look right back at this and, and we'll know exactly what happened. This is what we're
00:25:17.200
running on one way or the other. If we lose the majority, it's because this bill had too many losses
00:25:22.280
and not, not enough wins. And you know, likewise, if it, if we retain the majority, it'll probably
00:25:26.800
be based on some of the things that are in this bill that we like, like the tax cuts, the, the
00:25:31.780
opportunities for small businesses on, on, on depreciating their assets and, and certainly on
00:25:38.000
the lower rates. That's Americans. That's all we've got. Well, there's border stuff in there,
00:25:42.100
but people aren't, people aren't as enthusiastic about that because they've seen how effective Trump
00:25:46.400
was. Right. It's sealing the border just through the sheer will of executive power. Well, I also
00:25:52.220
think that, that, uh, yes, the border stuff is in there. And I think that we, as Republicans,
00:25:57.540
conservatives, the base out there expects that at the least. Right. And so like, yeah, of course,
00:26:02.720
I hope there's border stuff in there. You've, we've only, everyone made this the number one issue.
00:26:07.680
Right. But the, the tax cuts I think are going to be really, really important to deliver if we want
00:26:13.740
a chance at the majority at all, because I think that, uh, you know, yeah, fiscal conservatives,
00:26:18.740
we want to see, uh, tax cuts, you know, paired with spending cuts, but I actually think we're
00:26:23.560
in a period right now where conservatives don't care about the spending cuts part. We just need
00:26:28.760
relief immediately. Even if that means the deficits going up and all that, listen, we're at 30,
00:26:34.020
$40 trillion of debt with all sorts of people getting freebies, at least a little patronage to the
00:26:38.760
people who've worked and voted for president Trump can get some relief with tax cuts.
00:26:45.120
I get that. That's the argument. I hate it because we also made the argument throughout this entire
00:26:52.200
campaign that the debt and the deficits that were, that were piling up each and every year
00:26:58.000
contributed to inflation. Like inflation was just as much a part of this campaign as the border
00:27:03.380
or taxes. And you, when you make the argument that deficits and debt drive inflation, and then you
00:27:09.460
don't really attack deficits and debt. Well, Matt, where's the appetite? Look, how many of the doge
00:27:14.800
cuts are we codifying? Right? How many? So if we're, and we are, our voters are not dumb. They're
00:27:21.880
paying attention to all this stuff. And they're like, you know what, if the doge cuts aren't happening
00:27:25.640
or being codified, just please give me the tax cut relief. You know, we have a lot of the fiscal
00:27:30.860
hawks on our network, on our show. And like, we heard, I don't think they were gaslighting
00:27:37.020
us because they were actually fighting for the cuts, but they would come on night after
00:27:41.080
night and say, we want a trillion in cuts. We want two trillion cuts. And now we're going
00:27:45.620
to end up with like, you know, what a hundred billion, maybe drop in the bucket. Not, I mean,
00:27:52.600
it's like, that's, that's what I'm saying. It's just a hundred billion. You're not, we get
00:27:57.020
it. You're not going to get the spending cuts. We know. And, but I think I've said this
00:28:01.580
to you years ago when I said, listen, the paradigm on, on, on the American public there, it used
00:28:06.860
to be socially liberal, fiscal, fiscally conservative. And now it's flipping over to socially conservative
00:28:12.900
in the sense that like, don't chop my kids' genitals off. But it's amazing that that's
00:28:17.380
what social patriotism is. Right. Retreated to. Right. And then fiscally liberal, meaning
00:28:22.740
that, okay. Keep giving me my Medicaid. Keep giving me some Medicaid. You know what? The
00:28:28.300
deficits, the spending is not terrible. As long as I get relief, as long as there's patronage
00:28:34.060
provided to me for voting for you. Don't you think that the way Biden drove up these deficits
00:28:39.720
so quickly with these massive spending bills, that people connected that to the higher prices
00:28:44.780
that they were seeing at the grocery store? Of course they did. And don't you think they'll
00:28:47.640
punish us if we spend this much and, and, and the inflation doesn't. Matt, Matt, Biden
00:28:52.240
flooded the zone with 10 million illegals. We can't, we can barely get 200 of them out
00:28:57.240
without, without a massive fight. You don't think the American public also sees this. We
00:29:01.920
are, we get it. The, right. The, the system has, is against us and we've always, it's always
00:29:07.340
been against us. There's no due process to dump 10 million illegals in your country, but
00:29:11.480
it's all the due process to get even 200 of them out. Yeah. We're going to wave them
00:29:15.680
in by the plane load, bus load, raft load, and then demand like a trial for each one of
00:29:21.880
them. You know, Attica Finn shows up and defends every illegal alien on the way out. It's, it's
00:29:25.580
completely unsustainable. And if we accept that, we won't get the benefit out of it. Final
00:29:30.100
note here on the Medicaid program. 2024, the Medicaid program cost the country half a trillion
00:29:35.560
dollars. And in 2034, it'll cost a trillion. You know, you go 20 more years out, probably
00:29:45.240
a 2 trillion. Go out. This is, we are not going to be able to spend this amount of money.
00:29:51.300
Now, I don't think that means, I really sincerely don't think that means we have to reshape coverage
00:29:57.240
for people who actually need Medicaid. I think we can actually make that a lot stronger, but
00:30:01.900
we won't do that out of Washington. I've got to, I've got to rid you of this notion that,
00:30:06.440
you know, we put all the strings on because that becomes infinitely regressive. We put strings
00:30:10.080
on the program. They put the next thing, you know, if you want Medicaid, you got to have
00:30:13.320
your pronouns in your email box. And so it's better to just let the states do it. And you
00:30:17.780
know what? My state will continue to crush it and your state will continue to fail.
00:30:24.420
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push back on big pharma and make America healthy again. So Vish, you have noticed this new trend
00:31:25.160
in microlending and it is leading to quite the economic catastrophe. Let everybody in on it.
00:31:30.740
Yeah. So Klarna, this company that provides this buy now, pay later service, it's very similar to
00:31:37.540
Affirm and all these micro loan services where you're able to get a loan on like a PS5 that you
00:31:46.440
get from Amazon or even your McDonald's order off of Uber Eats, right?
00:31:52.600
They, they, you can get my burger on layaway. You can get any of the, any of these things,
00:31:58.200
your Chipotle, uh, right. I now pay later on your Chipotle. You're right. And so now this,
00:32:04.000
this platform Klarna has grown to a hundred million users, but now they're a hundred million globally
00:32:11.640
or in the United States? It's globally. Okay. It's globally a hundred million users, but nonetheless,
00:32:15.900
how many of those people you'd think live in America, probably a ton. Right. And so now this
00:32:22.680
company is reporting system-wide losses on this stuff that P that default defaults and delinquencies
00:32:29.020
on these micro loans are going through the roof. Well, yeah, right now, anyone expect, did anyone
00:32:35.780
expect like, you know, Eddie to pay for the burrito that he got on a loan five weeks ago? First of all,
00:32:43.820
your whole business model is built on the idea of providing a loan to a guy who cannot pay for
00:32:50.400
his big Mac right now. Right. And you're supposed to collect from this guy in the future. Now we can
00:32:57.840
economic Darwinism demands this business fail, right? Well, I mean, yes, the economic Darwinism
00:33:04.460
does, right. It's just like, Oh, obviously this is such a dumb idea. Like, why would you do it?
00:33:08.860
But you know what? I've gotten to thinking about it. And you know, if the big banks during the 2008
00:33:15.240
global financial crisis, if they were all able to get bailed out, right. And we say, well, the banks
00:33:22.000
are too big to fail. Then you don't want my belly is too big to fail on this one. I want my micro
00:33:28.100
loan for the burrito. I want my subprime, you know, sushi loan immediately. Right. Like
00:33:36.980
a floating loan on Outback rates go up. You had to pay more. Exactly. I'll come back when I'm here on
00:33:43.820
my next date, you know, and maybe I'll pay it back. How would that do does at the point of sale,
00:33:49.320
like, is there anything where a date would know if you had to borrow the money for like the Ruby
00:33:53.960
Tuesdays? Well, there, there, there isn't obviously at like, you know, if you go to a
00:33:58.700
restaurant or something like that, no, I don't think that option is available. Yeah. Um, but
00:34:03.000
you know, every day, anytime you go to checkout, there's the, you know, Apple pay option, credit
00:34:08.720
card option, or the Klarna or a firm, uh, option. Right. And so that's, that's how these things
00:34:14.660
operate. Ladies, if your man's picking the Klarna option at checkout, you need to be watching.
00:34:19.300
Yeah. No, I seriously. And that, that's a, but it, but okay, but also the, the, but you
00:34:24.820
know, this is like the big short too, but like the straight to DVD version, right? Where,
00:34:30.660
but, but it's a signal that, you know, when those delinquencies and defaults go, go at that
00:34:36.700
rate, especially at that level, the subprime level like that, it's a sign that we're hitting
00:34:41.140
recession. Right. And so I, yeah, it was just a dumb business idea to make these loans.
00:34:46.180
Yeah. I mean, there's, there's both, but I, I certainly wouldn't dismiss it. I think
00:34:50.560
that if for a, first of all, for a country to have that many people in a position where
00:34:55.020
they're taking out loans for like, you know, a bowl of ramen, that's that. I think that
00:35:01.800
that is again, catch the signal, not the noise. You know, what is it? Let's dissect what this
00:35:06.920
is a bigger symptom of when I was younger, I got into debt, but it was because people kept
00:35:12.240
mailing me credit cards. And so I would use them. And, uh, that became such a tortured story for
00:35:19.180
an entire generation that ended up like barely being able to pay the minimum monthly payment as
00:35:25.540
debt balances continued to rise. And may, is this type of a decentralized finance system,
00:35:32.820
a response to the failure of the big credit card companies and the big banks. And there's even a
00:35:38.580
middle layer of that. Like if you go to a lot of clothing stores, right, they've got their branded
00:35:43.820
credit card that they want to give you an incentive to get that you can, you know, use at Abercrombie
00:35:49.580
or wherever. And it's kind of like their own vertically integrated Klarn. And so this is just the
00:35:56.900
progression in my mind from the institutionalized banks and credit card systems to the kind of retail
00:36:03.400
point of sale, point of sale, vertically integrated finance model to a totally decentralized finance
00:36:08.080
model. Uh, but someone has to pay at some point, right? And that's, what's not happening now. And
00:36:14.500
is there like less of a recalcitrance to just acquiring debt now? And what does that say about us?
00:36:19.140
Well, here, here's the thing I think from a comp from the company perspective, offering this credit,
00:36:24.440
whether it's the store branded credit card, right? I think why you're seeing that so much in the
00:36:29.480
expansion of this is because the profit margins on selling product is so low that instead the
00:36:37.160
financial services division of the, of the same company through the, through the, the interest
00:36:44.680
actually makes them more money for the bottom line of the company than the actual profit from the sale
00:36:51.780
on the product. This is exactly what happened in the auto industry. Like the auto industry used to be
00:36:55.900
driven by, did you have some swashbuckling fraternity president car salesman who could,
00:37:00.100
you know, get a little extra dollar out of somebody who was going to get the family,
00:37:03.920
you know, Volkswagen. Right. But then when internet pricing created so much transparency
00:37:09.460
that it really became commoditized, it was the finance instrument that ended up being lashed to the
00:37:17.060
automobile that ended up generating a lot of value for the dealerships and the manufacturers.
00:37:22.500
Yeah. That's, that is ultimately what the profit center for all these companies are. It's not
00:37:27.800
Ford motor company that makes a ton of money. It's Ford financial services that provides the loan
00:37:33.680
to buy the car that makes these companies, the profits and the, and the, the beefing up of the,
00:37:38.600
of the bottom line that they need for their investors and shareholders seem to be in an era of moral
00:37:44.280
hazard financially right now. And you talked about the bailouts for the wall street banks. I think that
00:37:49.920
contributed to it. I think that recently when we saw Silicon Valley bank get bailout, that contributed
00:37:56.280
to some moral hazard. And if on the decentralized finance loans, um, there is some alleviation of
00:38:03.000
responsibility, like we saw on student loans, right? Like if we are in an era where more and more and
00:38:07.980
more, there's moral hazard injected because people aren't having to deal with the consequences of
00:38:12.580
their economic choices. Yeah. And it's not compassionate to build that moral hazard into a society.
00:38:17.880
Joe Biden thought he was like being really, uh, I guess, kind to all of the Etsy owners who had
00:38:25.180
their businesses running through Silicon Valley bank. But at the end of the day, banking is an
00:38:29.600
enterprise that requires risk. And if you drain the risk out of that by saying the federal government
00:38:35.980
is just backing the worst decisions people make, then, uh, you, you change it in a way that, um,
00:38:43.080
allows poor choices without having to feel the consequences of their choices. It would be like
00:38:48.800
taking pain away from the human body. We'd all be pretty banged up and bruised up if when we ran
00:38:53.840
into something sharp, our body didn't say, ouch, don't do that anymore. Right. Well, the thing is,
00:38:57.740
is that I think this is also a consequence of the fact that we've socialized the risk, especially for
00:39:03.800
so many of these big companies, the big banks, right? Every, it seems everybody is allowed to
00:39:10.120
get free money except for the little guy. Right. Like that's the way the feeling is. And it's like,
00:39:14.720
well, you know what, if I can beat somebody on a, on a college loan, I'll do it. Right. I'll,
00:39:20.240
and then I'll just go out. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll fall to my burrito payment. Right. I'll perform
00:39:24.400
the sin and then ask for forgiveness later. Right. And so, because God forgives everybody. Right.
00:39:28.980
It's, it's that same sort of similar mentality where a lot of people are saying, you know what,
00:39:33.860
I'll just, I'll, I'll take the burrito loan. Right. I'll never pay it back. And who knows who's
00:39:38.800
going to be on the hook for it at the end of the day, but somebody will forgive it hopefully because
00:39:42.940
look, there's, everyone's getting free money. The rich people are getting free money. All the risk
00:39:47.060
is socialized. Why can't I be part of the pool that has their, their risk socialized too?
00:39:53.520
Well, I guess we'll find out because I don't think people are going to be repaying
00:39:58.940
these loans to Klarna. Oh, hell no. They're not going to be repaying. It either gets socialized
00:40:02.600
or it's the economic Darwinism. Democrats are freaking out at the way we won this last election.
00:40:08.200
And I think we, I think we won it through these alternate media channels, the podcasting,
00:40:14.580
the dominance on socials. We meme better than the left, way better than the left. But we had to do
00:40:21.540
that because we didn't control mainstream media. They had such a control over mainstream media.
00:40:26.640
Like we had to become like the jungle fighting force that found these other ways to build
00:40:31.600
organizations. Now we've got this big story coming out about debt, Democrat mega donors
00:40:37.140
investing gajillions of dollars into an influencer army as like, like, like some sort of squid game
00:40:45.240
that they hope a left wing Joe Rogan arises out of. What say you, Vishper?
00:40:50.460
Well, right now that these Democrat mega donors are fielding a ton of pitches, right? Everyone's saying,
00:40:55.480
I got the next idea for the liberal Joe Rogan. I got the next idea to create the infrastructure.
00:41:01.020
I would love to be a fly on the wall in those pitches. Like, can you imagine the left wing
00:41:05.400
activists walking in and being like, so I've got the next new idea, a podcast with no gender.
00:41:11.320
Well, and you know what? The first thing that should be said in those meetings is you guys had
00:41:17.420
a liberal Joe Rogan. His name was Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan endorsed Bernie Sanders for president.
00:41:23.960
Exactly. So, so ridiculous. What the question is, how did we scare Joe Rogan away? And it's because,
00:41:30.620
right, that's actually the problem that they're trying to, that they actually should be solving.
00:41:34.940
Yeah, rather than finding the next Joe Rogan, they should realize why they lost the last one.
00:41:38.720
Right. And, and you know what? And a lot of Democrats are smart, are smart to this, but
00:41:43.580
obviously the, the mega donors and the donors, it's so crazy how the donors are like the last
00:41:49.540
to find out about like what's really going on too. That's how they get scammed out of so
00:41:53.500
much money, right? In the first, in the first place. But, uh, these, they're going to these
00:41:58.940
donors saying, yeah, we can find the next Rogan or whatever. Now, two things point one, this
00:42:04.160
is going to fail. And the reason this is going to fail is because Democrats, I don't care if it's a,
00:42:10.320
a, uh, politician, non-politician type, whatever, they are so scared and walk on eggshells to say
00:42:17.860
anything, right? And the whole point of why these guys, especially your Aiden Rosses, Tim Dillons of
00:42:22.740
the world, Joe Rogans is because they're willing to explore the edgy, right? And they're willing to
00:42:28.320
have conversations about things that not everyday people talk about. And, and, you know,
00:42:33.900
perhaps entertain a uncouth idea or, you know, talk about it honestly, in a way with authenticity,
00:42:40.860
the, the lack of authenticity on the left and the lack of wanting to foster authenticity,
00:42:49.540
right? Allowing someone to have a bad opinion or a wrong opinion in the first place without being
00:42:54.280
canceled, right? That is what stops them from being. Oh, so you think it's structural? Yes.
00:43:00.040
This is just a, um, the talent hasn't, hasn't gone that way or they've run off the top. You think
00:43:05.940
that, um, the, the nature of the social contract on the political left right now does not provide
00:43:13.660
the oxygen for the type of creativity and boundary pushing that, that brings in people. No way,
00:43:21.680
no way. And remember the audience, they couldn't even keep their Chanka. What was that? What's that
00:43:26.000
guy? The young Turk guy's name? Oh, Chank, Chank, you, Chank, couldn't he, because he said something
00:43:30.640
their next Rogan, right. Or Anna Kasparian, like, you know, saying, I don't want to hear about Kamala
00:43:36.600
Harris running for president or running for governor of California in 2026, right? I don't want to hear
00:43:42.420
that. They go and try, you know, cancel her for that. Right. And so it's, it is a structural,
00:43:47.680
like you said, it is a structural problem that their ideology and their, uh, the way that they
00:43:54.240
signal to each other, social status is the very thing that keeps them from finding that Joe Rogan,
00:44:00.860
because remember, why did we go on all those podcasts in 2024 to reach young men? We didn't
00:44:05.900
just go on them. We built them. Yeah. Well, that's, that's the other thing too, right? We built them
00:44:10.160
when we built them out of the, out of basements. Yeah. When we started, I mean, you and I have been
00:44:14.300
involved in the building of a number of podcast projects that have been very successful. But
00:44:18.660
when this all began, I never really believed that it was going to be like a needle to the
00:44:25.340
veins of young men. Right. I didn't think, you know what men under the age of 35 are really looking
00:44:30.240
to do, sit around and listen to the two of us yak it up for an hour. Right. But actually, like,
00:44:36.260
why is that, that that's so attractive? Is it because of the boundary pushing? It is because
00:44:40.560
of the boundary. It's the willing to explore the unexplored, right? The manliest thing you could
00:44:44.900
do is go into a dark hole and come out the other side. This is not that kind of show.
00:44:50.820
I mean it in the, the Jordan Peterson way of like walking into the dark cavern.
00:44:55.240
Yeah. Like the conquistador. Yes. Uh, the, the whole notion of conquest. Right. That, right. So
00:44:59.740
they're going into the unknown and then making sense or bringing order to the unknown, right? That is
00:45:05.380
the most manly, uh, sentiment or instinct that a man can have. But, but if that's true, you have to
00:45:12.440
keep going. Yes. Of course. Because this becomes too known, right? Well, yeah. And we, like, we've been
00:45:17.520
told that, that in the coming years, it's going to be the great time of acquisition of these podcast
00:45:23.400
properties that, that companies like, you know, uh, Discovery and News Corp, you know, pick your
00:45:30.100
favorite media conglomerate that rather than paying like the, you know, massive salary to,
00:45:37.480
uh, Rachel Maddow, that it's going to be the acquisition of podcast networks. That's going
00:45:43.040
to drive. Yes. And by the way, that's totally right. And you've already seen this paradigm has
00:45:48.060
existed in the culture space or the, the art space for a long time. You know, there was a difference,
00:45:54.320
uh, but I, I like to, uh, use the analogy of the rap game or the hip hop industry, right? It
00:46:00.040
was all like everyone who was cool. Listen to the underground rapper, right? The, the guy who's
00:46:05.380
not famous yet. That's the one everyone's like, Oh, you're not up on this guy. That's what's really
00:46:10.160
cool is listening to happening in podcast. And now they go mainstream, right? And so because that guy
00:46:16.020
got popular, that underground guy got popular and the big companies realize that everyone's listening
00:46:20.860
to that guy, they go and sign the deal with that guy. And then that guy goes mainstream. And then,
00:46:26.980
you know, now you get all the bells and whistles of being in the mainstream and the big check,
00:46:30.840
and maybe you drop one great hit or one great album with that new deal, but then everything
00:46:36.120
else kind of falls off after. Right. And why is that is because you don't have the drive,
00:46:40.940
right? For just these podcasts that we built out of the ground, we didn't start that by making
00:46:46.060
pitch decks to multimillion dollar mega donors. No, we just did it with like 15 grand budget for a
00:46:54.760
microphone and a lens. You're right. That's how that that's the underground aspect of it. And
00:46:59.180
then we start rapping on that. And then people are listening. Well, man, this is the good stuff.
00:47:04.040
This is where the real information is. These are the guys who are talking about all the things
00:47:07.540
that the mainstream people won't talk about. But once everyone starts listening to that,
00:47:12.280
and the big guys understand that, then that's when they come with the, the offer that you can't
00:47:18.060
refuse. We've only got a couple of minutes left, but since you mentioned rap culture,
00:47:22.140
does Diddy get convicted? You know what? I don't think so. Oh, hot take. Yeah. Make the case for
00:47:29.780
Diddy's innocence, Vish Burra, or at least his, uh, uh, you, your belief that he would not be found
00:47:34.520
guilty. Uh, you know what? From the coverage that I've seen of this, Diddy's lawyers are doing a
00:47:41.120
fantastic job. By the way, this is a redux of like late nineties, early two thousands Diddy, where he's
00:47:48.420
got the, like a top notch legal team and PR team on this. And the other side's got a Comey. I mean,
00:47:54.280
sure. They got a Comey, but right now, you know, apparently, but he doesn't know what 86, 47 means,
00:48:00.220
right? That's where we are with the Comey side right now. We got people playing dumb. Right. And so now
00:48:05.000
that's not Diddy's team. Diddy's team is going up slicing and dicing. And the main Cassie being the
00:48:10.460
main witness there, they got her admitting that she was going, you know, she had claimed that he raped her
00:48:15.800
or sexually assaulted her, but then was hanging out with him and having sex with him after,
00:48:20.220
after that, this incident took place. I think you're going to respond, uh, very unfavorably to
00:48:24.700
that characterization by the prosecution for, you know, because of some of those facts that have
00:48:30.380
come out. And when I heard and saw this coverage of the Diddy thing, I thought that, uh, there would
00:48:36.120
be this mountain of victims who had been forcibly coerced into things they didn't want to do.
00:48:42.180
And, uh, now what it looks like is that he's definitely guilty of domestic violence, which
00:48:47.980
is terrible. He hasn't been charged with domestic violence, which is interesting. If he were charged
00:48:51.900
with that, I think he would be convicted, but that's a state matter. And this is a federal
00:48:55.680
prosecution. And so what they're having to prove, they have, they have precisely one victim,
00:49:00.020
right? One Cassie Ventura. And that victim is on, is in text messages saying she hopes the next
00:49:08.640
freak off isn't the last freak off, but the first freak off for the rest of their lives.
00:49:12.940
Yeah. And you know, if Cassie regretted those, that's awful, but it's at least a mixed message.
00:49:19.780
Yeah. If while she's regretting it, she's making those statements. And, uh, there, I guess could
00:49:25.100
be two reasons that she had, uh, participation in these events. One that she was forcibly violently,
00:49:32.920
uh, coerced or extorted. And the other, uh, she didn't want to lose her man. And she did things
00:49:38.260
she didn't want to do because she didn't want to lose her man. Now, one of those is probably
00:49:42.200
sex trafficking and a crime. And the other one definitely isn't. Right. And this fact pattern
00:49:48.420
seems to meld the two pretty substantially. I'll give you the last word on it.
00:49:51.820
Yeah. I look, I think in the days after the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial and, and, you know,
00:49:57.280
especially in the days after me too and all this stuff. And there's a lot of, uh, let's
00:50:01.760
say believe all women isn't the standard anymore. I think that's, that's, that's being applied
00:50:06.960
here too. All we have to do is believe her own text messages. Well then that she's consenting
00:50:11.960
to the conduct. Well then, and then, but if she goes on the stand and says something different
00:50:15.620
now, what do you believe? Right. And so I think that this mixed, what was, did he supposed
00:50:20.480
to believe? Well, that, well, and by the way, is he allowed to believe something that is
00:50:25.120
not criminal? Like, Oh, I think she is totally into it. If that's what she's saying, right?
00:50:30.220
I'm not saying he's a good guy. I think he should definitely be convicted of the crimes
00:50:33.420
that he obviously committed, but those seem to be state crimes around assault, battery,
00:50:40.520
domestic violence. It does not seem to be a federal sex trafficking case.
00:50:43.720
Whatever this is, it's not, it's not it. So I think he, I think he, he gets off on this
00:50:48.800
and then maybe goes to state and gets, gets did there for DV or something.
00:50:52.960
Bishborough, it is always a pleasure to chop it up with you, man. Thanks for hanging out
00:50:56.720
with me on Anchorman and make sure to leave us a five-star rating, a review, and always
00:51:01.460
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