The Art of Manliness - #104： The Code of Man With Waller Newell

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. Well, I'm

00:00:18.980 really excited about today's guest because he's someone I've referenced several times

00:00:22.640 throughout my writing at the Art of Manliness. His name is Waller Newell. He is a professor

00:00:26.900 of political science at Carleton University in Canada, and he's written several books about

00:00:32.080 manhood or like the philosophy of manliness throughout Western history. One book he wrote

00:00:38.280 was called The Code of Man, and the second was What is a Man, which is an anthology of poems,

00:00:43.440 essays, speeches, excerpts from literature that speak to sort of this philosophy of virtuous

00:00:48.840 manhood that he argues has existed since the ancient Greeks and goes all the way through

00:00:53.700 up to the 20th century, but then stopped. Anyway, in today's podcast, Professor Newell

00:00:58.480 and I discuss what it means to be a virtuous man, what manliness has meant since the ancient

00:01:04.280 Greeks and through the Renaissance, through the Enlightenment, and what it means today

00:01:08.800 and why turning our backs on this sort of what he calls a rich heritage of manhood has been

00:01:14.820 disastrous for our times in the 21st century. We also get into talking about manliness and

00:01:21.140 how it relates to terrorism. He also does a lot of research about tyranny, honor, terrorism,

00:01:27.580 so we get into talking about what's going on today in the world with ISIS and whatnot,

00:01:32.320 and how masculinity plays a role into that. Anyways, it's just a very fascinating discussion.

00:01:38.060 If you love the great books, if you love Aristotle, if you love Plato, if you love some of the more

00:01:42.840 philosophical stuff you write in the Art of Manliness, you're really going to love this

00:01:45.200 discussion today with Professor Newell. So let's do this.

00:01:52.680 Professor Waller Newell, welcome to the show.

00:01:54.920 Nice to be with you.

00:01:55.920 So you are a professor of political science, but you've spent a great deal of time

00:02:01.040 writing about Western conceptions of manliness.

00:02:06.300 That's right.

00:02:06.960 Why the interest in researching and writing about masculinity or manhood and what it's meant

00:02:12.520 throughout history as a political science professor?

00:02:15.200 Well, I'd always worked on issues like ambition, tyranny, honor-seeking in classical thought.

00:02:26.100 And a journalist friend of mine some years back said to me,

00:02:30.880 a lot of people are interested in these issues. Why don't you try writing for a larger audience?

00:02:36.200 And that combined with some observations I had made about my students, particularly my male graduate

00:02:45.460 students who were, I'd say, in their mid to late 20s, that they seemed particularly conflicted about

00:02:53.660 this issue of manliness or manhood. In other words, should you try to act that way? If you should,

00:03:00.200 what should it be? And really, that's how the two things went together. So I took a stab at writing an essay,

00:03:08.620 which eventually was published by the Weekly Standard called The Crisis of Manliness.

00:03:13.480 And I'd been working on it in London, England, where I was on sabbatical. And one day I walked to my local

00:03:22.020 bookstore to take a break. And lo and behold, I came across this novel called Fight Club.

00:03:28.040 And as I began flipping through it, I felt this mounting sense of excitement because I realized this

00:03:34.000 guy has seen what I've seen. And that's really what inspired me to do it.

00:03:40.440 Okay. So what you've done is you go through the canons of Western thought all the way back to the

00:03:47.900 ancient Greeks up until modern times to kind of suss out what manhood or manliness means.

00:03:55.240 So what did you discover? How has the West defined manhood or true manhood throughout 3,000 years?

00:04:04.000 Well, traditionally, I would say that it's been conceived of as a balance of mind and passion

00:04:13.260 or self-control and desire and a kind of harmonious partnership between those spheres of life. It's

00:04:25.280 perhaps best conveyed by famous images like the chariot of the soul in Plato's Phaedrus, where

00:04:32.860 the two passions of love and honor-seeking are controlled by the charioteer of the mind.

00:04:42.120 And just as the passions represented by those steers will plunge downward and fall out of the sky if

00:04:51.260 they're not controlled by the charioteer, by the same token, the chariot isn't going to get anywhere

00:04:56.460 without the power of those horses. So it's a kind of symbiotic relationship between the intellect

00:05:03.280 and the passions. You also find that, say, in Cicero's Dream of Scipio, where the life of martial

00:05:11.720 virtue, civic virtue, is guided by the life of the mind in a kind of harmonious whole. Castigliones,

00:05:19.640 the courtier, really down throughout the whole classical era, down to the renaissance, the

00:05:26.040 enlightenment. It's been a coherent depiction, I think, of manhood at its best.

00:05:32.160 Okay. And so it seems like manhood then is a culmination or, yeah, developing certain virtues,

00:05:40.340 correct? Like living a virtuous life.

00:05:41.920 Right.

00:05:43.040 If that's the case then, like how does manhood differ from womanhood? Because, you know, 0.98

00:05:48.260 women could be virtuous as well. So how can you be virtuous but in a manly way?

00:05:55.220 Yeah, absolutely. I would describe it as two different paths to the same goal. In other words,

00:06:02.000 men and women aspire or should aspire to the same virtues of character, virtues of mind. But the male

00:06:10.280 path might be psychologically somewhat different. And so I think that traditionally it was understood

00:06:17.140 that men, young men in particular, have a certain kind of leaning toward aggressiveness, toward ambition,

00:06:27.740 even toward belligerence, that required a different kind of shaping to enable them to aspire to these

00:06:35.960 higher virtues. And what I have found interesting in the years since I first wrote my books about

00:06:42.960 manliness is that a lot of current research on human psychology seems to be suggesting that

00:06:50.500 these male traits of aggressiveness are hardwired in the human character, that they're not just

00:06:56.980 acculturated. So there's been a lot of interesting empirical research done about that. The fact that

00:07:03.020 boys, for example, respond more positively to exhortation than girls do. The fact that girls 0.95

00:07:10.180 work together better in groups in school than boys do. There's a lot of really interesting new research

00:07:16.360 that seems to reaffirm some of the traditional approaches. Interesting. So I guess manliness then

00:07:23.480 is sort of tempering that aggressiveness or that thumos, right, if you want to go back to the chariot. 0.97

00:07:32.440 Yes, absolutely. I mean, really, for say, Plato's Republic, I mean, the taming of Achilles thumos,

00:07:40.100 you could say is really the key to that entire book. That's what paideia or education has to do,

00:07:47.060 because if you cannot bring that type of excessively ambitious man into the fold,

00:07:54.380 then any other thoughts you might have about a just society aren't really going to get off the ground.

00:08:00.780 Okay. So you have this great line in this book, in your book, The Code of Man,

00:08:05.180 and I've quoted it several times in my own writing, because I think it just really captures what's

00:08:11.020 just a really great idea, is that you say, in some ways, Teddy Roosevelt and Churchill

00:08:16.620 have more in common with Homer and Shakespeare than they do with us. What do you mean by that line?

00:08:24.940 You have to kind of think about it, I guess. When I first read that, I had to think about what that

00:08:28.160 meant. But what do you mean by that? Yeah, what I mean is that figures like Teddy Roosevelt

00:08:34.860 and Churchill stood at the end of a tradition that was still in many ways completely accessible,

00:08:43.600 a tradition that had been handed down, the one with which I began my comments, this notion of

00:08:50.000 a true definition of manliness as the proper balance between the passions and the mind. And

00:08:57.640 despite the belief in progress in the Victorian era, that history was somehow getting better and

00:09:04.700 better, that wasn't thought to be incompatible with an immersion in these deep and rich teachings

00:09:12.380 from the past about the meaning of the soul. And so I think that for figures like that,

00:09:20.240 standing at the end of that tradition, it still seemed like something living to them. I mean,

00:09:27.280 Theodore Roosevelt, for example, an amazingly well-educated man, I mean, he read two cities in the

00:09:34.220 Greek several times in his life. Once when he was out West prospecting, later on at night to relax in

00:09:42.620 the White House. I mean, this was a living thing for them. What's happened since then, I think, is that

00:09:48.920 we've somehow thought that the belief in progress has to lead to the wholesale rejection of this Western

00:09:56.700 tradition. I think the 1960s had a lot to do with it, the growth of what was called child-centered

00:10:03.740 learning, the idea that people shouldn't be burdened with dogmas from the past. And it's led to, I think,

00:10:11.800 a rather calamitous sense of amnesia about what even three or four generations ago was still quite

00:10:19.220 accessible for people.

00:10:21.060 So what do you think have been some of those calamitous results of, you know, turning our 0.60

00:10:25.560 backs or having that collective amnesia about this sort of 3,000-year-old tradition of manliness?

00:10:32.360 Well, I think what it's led to is a kind of forgetting of this middle realm between passion and the mind.

00:10:46.540 And it has led to what I have called the dichotomy between the wimp and the beast. And this goes back 0.90

00:10:56.760 to Fight Club, that there's a tendency for young men today to either bear to the extreme of Ed Norton

00:11:05.940 in the movie, sort of cruising 12-step programs to pick up women, buying IKEA furniture, trying to be 0.92

00:11:14.560 politically correct in every way, or the opposite extreme to become a kind of fascistic brute,

00:11:21.140 like the character played by Brad Pitt. And we've lost that sense of the middle ground.

00:11:27.220 What happens, I think, is that young men receive a kind of distorted version of manliness, which they 0.65

00:11:34.700 identify with being a beast. And then they think that in order to be manly, they have to act that out.

00:11:40.920 And over the years, I can't tell you the number of times that teachers, parents have told me that,

00:11:48.340 you know, when they read that description of the beast versus the wimp, and the attempt to kind of act out

00:11:55.700 the beastly side, people have said to me, you know, that describes the boys I teach, or that describes

00:12:02.440 my sons. And so I think that's the problem we face now.

00:12:06.420 You said you saw things in your own graduate students, particularly the male students. Was

00:12:10.860 there something in particular you saw in them where you sensed that they didn't get this middle

00:12:15.660 ground? Were they tending on the beast side or on the wimp side?

00:12:20.660 They would veer from one to the other. And the more thoughtful of them recognized that,

00:12:27.700 the fact that although they felt pressured to be the Ed Norton politically correct guy,

00:12:34.880 that they were attracted to the other more adventurous and bolder side. And I mean, it was

00:12:42.360 often something that they laughed about, but they were aware of this in themselves.

00:12:49.860 So also in The Code of Man, you argue that men should strive to follow a five-fold path in order

00:12:57.100 to achieve what you call a life that's emotionally, erotically, and spiritually satisfying. What are those five

00:13:04.880 stages of virtues on this path to manhood?

00:13:07.820 What I tried to suggest was that maybe we could talk about five spheres that are connected but

00:13:15.360 distinct. And they would center around love, courage, not only physical but moral, pride, which would also

00:13:24.740 include a reflection on revelation and the limitations of pride, family, and patriotism. It's really an old-fashioned

00:13:33.880 teaching. I don't claim any tremendous originality about it. In a way, it's straight out of Aristotle's

00:13:40.420 ethics. But it seemed to me that that would be kind of a roadmap, maybe, whereby we could think our way

00:13:47.400 back through these traditional teachings and how they interact with our own unique conditions in the

00:13:55.400 present, and try to come up with some sense of wholeness that would have a distinctively masculine tone to it.

00:14:03.720 Okay. And you also say, I thought, going back to this fight, you put an emphasis on love or the

00:14:08.680 romantic part, because you say the best hope for reclaiming the positive meaning of manliness

00:14:12.680 lies in the sphere of romantic relationships. Why do you believe that's the case?

00:14:17.380 I think because articulate teachings about courage, about pride, even about family life and patriotism are

00:14:29.800 somewhat distant from today's readers. It's something that you have to kind of go out of your way to look

00:14:39.420 for. Whereas love, I think, the hope of love, the stirring of love is something that we all still feel.

00:14:47.660 So I think of these five paths to manliness, love is the one that we don't really have to make any effort

00:14:54.660 to experience. We're just going to experience it. And I think that that feeling still stirs in us the desire

00:15:03.040 to be lovable by the beloved. Again, this goes right back to Plato. In other words, when we love somebody,

00:15:10.240 we want to aspire to a standard of conduct that will make us lovable in their eyes. And that gives us a motive

00:15:19.280 for self-development and self-improvement. And then as we pursue that motive to be lovable by the beloved,

00:15:31.480 that can act as a kind of link to developing those other virtues as well. In other words, in order to make

00:15:37.680 ourselves worthy of love, we would then explore these other facets of life, including courage, family life,

00:15:46.200 patriotism, and so forth. And I have to say that of all the reviews of my books, even the ones that were

00:15:53.780 most hostile, the ones that, you know, sort of said I was an anti-feminist or something like that,

00:15:59.580 they tended to like that part of the treatment the most. And I think that shows that love era still

00:16:07.520 touches a chord in people.

00:16:09.020 That sounds very much like Adam Smith's Theory of Moral Sentiments,

00:16:13.780 Loved by the Beloved. I guess he got that from Aristotle.

00:16:18.860 And behind that, behind that, even Plato's Symposium, I think, which is probably the core

00:16:26.020 classical treatment of that idea.

00:16:29.680 So you've spent a great deal of time studying, researching honor and shame. What role does

00:16:37.420 honor and shame play in the code of man? And does that system of honor still exist in the West?

00:16:44.420 I would say that honor and the capacity to feel ashamed of failing to live up to our own best

00:16:57.220 standards is really indispensable to educating people. And it's fallen into disfavor because

00:17:06.100 we're told repeatedly that it's bad for people to feel ashamed of themselves. But it seems to me that

00:17:14.060 while you don't want to shame people in a brutal way, if you're going to exhort people morally,

00:17:23.220 and especially young people, to aspire to be good human beings, then their capacity to feel ashamed

00:17:31.620 for falling short of that is really important and necessary. And I think people still, I certainly

00:17:37.940 still feel with students that they are very much capable of feeling shame without my even prompting it,

00:17:45.020 if they do feel that they have fallen beneath themselves. And so I do think that we have a system

00:17:54.300 of male honor that is still intact, but it is fragile. It requires an active recovery, I think,

00:18:03.900 to go out and find it. People like you and I have done that, and others. And I think it's an ongoing project,

00:18:12.620 but I'm confident now that that ship is launched, and that probably we are going to, bit by bit,

00:18:20.620 recover that heritage. I want to add as well that, as you stressed in some of your writings,

00:18:27.340 even everyday manners are an important component of manliness, don't you think? I mean, how to groom,

00:18:34.220 how to act properly in certain situations, good manners, gentlemanly conduct. I think these

00:18:41.180 habits are very important for us to try and establish in young people.

00:18:46.700 Sure, because it's all about how a man presents himself or acts in the public arena.

00:18:53.340 Yeah. I mean, that's important. I mean, yeah, that's right.

00:18:58.780 Yeah. And I think one of the hard things about honor that I've found is that

00:19:03.420 we don't really have a vocabulary for it anymore because we've made honor into sort of meaning

00:19:13.740 personal integrity, which is true. That's how, but like the ancients had a different conception of it,

00:19:20.460 that it wasn't... Go ahead.

00:19:22.540 It was certainly more public-oriented. We live in large mass democracies. We have a

00:19:33.820 code of individualism that really trumps everything else. It's not probably going to be possible for

00:19:39.820 us to literally recover what was once held to be honor-seeking because we will never quite have that

00:19:48.620 same public civic direction. But we can certainly enrich our own experience from those traditional

00:19:58.940 teachings. And public honor still has an important place to play, role to play in our own politics.

00:20:05.980 Sure.

00:20:06.620 Several times in your writing, you talk about how war can be a moral wake-up call. I believe

00:20:13.020 the Code of Man was written just shortly after 9-11. How is that? How does war play as a moral wake-up call?

00:20:22.460 And what role do you think war and martial virtue should play in shaping a man?

00:20:30.460 Yes. I mean, nobody in their right mind wants war, but there are occasions when war is both necessary

00:20:38.780 and just. Certainly in the case of one's self-defense, the self-defense of one's country. But also,

00:20:47.980 at times, one goes to war to protect other people or to rescue them from tyranny. That's what sparked

00:20:54.700 the American Civil War. That's what sparked our involvement in World War II. So I think that

00:21:02.700 that while everybody prefers peace to war, there are going to be times when we can't avoid the necessity of

00:21:12.780 armed conflict. And certainly for the moral tradition of the West, courage in combat, going back to

00:21:23.260 Aristotle was always one of the important building blocks for an education in character formation. As

00:21:32.460 Aristotle says, if you haven't felt fear, then you don't know what courage is. Now, they did not regard

00:21:39.340 courage as the highest virtue. And they believed that courage at all times had to be governed by

00:21:45.980 moderation. In other words, courage is not the same thing as mad daring or insane boldness like Achilles.

00:21:54.940 Nevertheless, though, they did believe that the capacity for self-discipline and self-control that

00:22:02.220 one does learn through military experience can be invaluable for cultivating those higher virtues of civic

00:22:10.780 life and the mind. So yeah, I do think that remains an important introduction to the meaning of manliness.

00:22:18.940 Yeah. And I think you made the point in The Code of Man how in academics, we're very uncomfortable

00:22:25.420 discussing about the morality of war, how war can be good sometimes. And you said, you sort of make the

00:22:33.020 case that we're missing out or we're, I don't know, in a way not giving an enriching idea to our students

00:22:41.420 about what goodness is or what it means to be a good man. Yeah, I think there's a very deep and

00:22:50.300 widespread aversion in the academic world and in much of the world of media punditry to

00:22:58.060 acknowledge that there can be a positive account of military virtue and battlefield courage. Look at the

00:23:05.740 controversy over the sniper film. And it's odd in a way because everybody still, I think,

00:23:12.620 concedes that World War II was a just war. So if people can still grasp that it would have been wrong

00:23:20.620 to sit out a war against Hitler. I marvel at why it's so difficult to extend that to more recent

00:23:28.620 conflicts. You know, I mean, okay, maybe the invasion of Iraq wasn't on the same level morally

00:23:35.660 as World War II, but certainly it had an ethical dimension. So I find it very puzzling. It's a disturbing

00:23:43.500 case of groupthink. Well, let's go back to this. Let's continue on that idea about the talking heads

00:23:49.180 or the punditry. You know, in recent years, you've made the case that policymakers, the pundits,

00:23:57.900 they're overlooking the driving force behind such things as school shootings and also terrorism. I

00:24:04.220 think that's what a lot of your research has been about lately, young men and terrorism. What's the

00:24:09.100 common explanation for these violent acts? And what do you think is the underlying cause of them?

00:24:17.740 Well, what we're told by the current administration, and it's a view that is shared by

00:24:24.300 many reputable opinion makers, is that the root cause of terrorism is poverty and lack of opportunity

00:24:33.340 for economic advancement. Now, I would be the first to concede that that is certainly

00:24:39.580 one motivation for terrorism, but I don't think it's the primary one. I think the primary one is

00:24:48.140 a kind of perverted idealism, a kind of perverted sense of nobility in which terrorists believe that

00:24:56.700 they are genuinely working toward a noble purpose, which is the establishment of, in the case of

00:25:06.460 jihadism, a worldwide caliphate. But if you go back to the French Revolution, to the Jacobins, to the 0.72

00:25:15.260 Russian Revolution, to National Socialism, to the Khmer Rouge, to Maoism, in all of these cases you will find

00:25:23.420 the commitment to create a utopian society, a collective in which the individual will be

00:25:30.940 submerged and all sources of alienation, unhappiness, and injustice will disappear. And that this requires

00:25:39.180 armed conflict, terrorism, and almost always genocide against some designated out-group that is the

00:25:47.260 embodiment of the embodiment of all evil. So I think we really have to come to terms with this, because

00:25:53.740 number one, most of the leaders of these revolutionary groups aren't poor. They come from middle or even

00:26:00.860 upper-class backgrounds. Bin Laden came from an extremely wealthy family, and so they are certainly not

00:26:08.220 doing what they do for the sake of economic advantage. And I think that most of the hardened cadres,

00:26:15.180 the people who plan the operations and carry them out, poverty is not what they're worried about.

00:26:21.340 And so I think we really have to turn to understanding the psychology of terrorism and face the perhaps

00:26:30.060 unpleasant notion that a kind of violent ambition to impose one's will on others in the name of a

00:26:38.540 revolutionary vision may just be an irreducible facet of human psychology.

00:26:46.460 How would, if we had that approach, how would it change how we approach these wars?

00:26:53.900 Well, it's hard to say in practice, but at least you would understand that

00:27:00.060 that any form of extending Western-style pluralism and economic materialism and prosperity to these

00:27:10.860 combat zones may have limited success at best in winning people away from terroristic causes.

00:27:22.620 And I think as well, you would have to think twice about, let's say, encouraging the overthrow of secular 1.00

00:27:31.660 authoritarian dictatorships like Assad, extremely unpleasant as they are, if what you've got waiting

00:27:39.020 in the wings is some form of Muslim Brotherhood or ISIS or collectivist jihadism, because then you're 0.66

00:27:49.980 going to get the state taken over by truly committed revolutionaries and ideologues, and no amount of

00:27:57.980 economic prosperity is going to deter them from their goal. So while it's hard to kind of chase the

00:28:05.580 over this, I think we just need a kind of dose of realism about the psychological motivations

00:28:15.020 of terrorists, and it's going to affect whatever calculations we make. You know, maybe it would

00:28:21.580 have been better to have had a Mubarak with all of his failings and cronyism and so forth than the 1.00

00:28:29.660 attempt of the Muslim Brotherhood to turn Egypt into a theocratic republic like Iran.

00:28:35.180 I don't know how much you know about or how much you've researched, like,

00:28:39.420 Muslim man or, you know, radical Islam and what their conceptions of manliness.

00:28:43.980 I mean, is that playing a role in this?

00:28:48.380 Well, you know, I'm on the side of the debate that believes that radical Islamism

00:28:55.340 is more of a descendant of European revolutionary nihilism than it is in any way directly connected

00:29:04.780 to the intrinsic content of Islam. And I know there are people who don't agree with that, but

00:29:11.340 I really think we're barking up the wrong tree to treat this as a so-called holy war between the

00:29:17.900 Christian West and the Muslim East, because I think that movements like ISIS, the Taliban, 0.94

00:29:24.540 Al-Qaeda, they've really got a lot more to do with Frantz Fanon and earlier revolutionary movements

00:29:32.460 like National Socialism than they do with the core teachings of Islam. That's my view anyway. 0.99

00:29:39.260 Interesting. So I'd like to just get some ideas for our readers from you while I have you here,

00:29:46.780 because you wrote another great book called What is a Man? It's sort of an anthology of collections of

00:29:54.140 excerpts from books, speeches, essays about what it means to be a man. And I would love for you to,

00:30:00.220 if you have any suggestions on what our readers should go check out and start reading if they

00:30:05.020 want to kind of understand this heritage of Western manliness.

00:30:11.100 Well, I think often you find the best discussions of these issues not so much in purely theoretical

00:30:22.300 writings as in great historians and memoirs. Historians like Gibbon or Macaulay, and also in the memoirs of

00:30:32.940 statesmen like Churchill. Churchill's great contemporaries, for example, is one of my favorite

00:30:41.420 books. And from there, one can go back and read Machiavelli or read Castiglione's The Courtier,

00:30:50.860 back from there into the classical authors like Cicero, Plato, Aristotle. There's really just an

00:31:00.380 enormous wealth of insights that one can explore and graze in.

00:31:10.300 Fantastic. Well, Professor Newell, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:31:15.420 It's been a pleasure for me too, Brett. Thank you so much.

00:31:19.260 Our guest today was Waller Newell. He's a professor of political science at Carleton University in

00:31:23.180 Canada, and he's the author of several books. The ones I recommend you go check out is The Code of

00:31:27.740 Man and also What Is a Man. What Is a Man is a fantastic book. It's one of the things you can

00:31:31.660 open up to any part and you'll get some sort of gem that will speak to what it means to be a virtuous

00:31:36.940 man. Also check out his latest book, Tyranny. Very fascinating book. I'm about halfway through it

00:31:41.980 right now. It's speaking to a lot of what's going on in the world today with terrorism and how it

00:31:47.980 relates to masculinity. It's interesting insights there. Go check it out. You can find those all on

00:31:53.020 amazon.com. Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly

00:31:59.900 tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com.

00:32:04.380 I'd really appreciate it if you can go to the store, Art of Manliness store. It's

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00:32:22.940 there will help support the podcast and what we do on the site. Again, that's store.artofmanliness.com.

00:32:28.380 I'd really appreciate it. Until next time, stay manly.

The Art of Manliness - March 06, 2015

#104： The Code of Man With Waller Newell

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