#106： Photographing War & Conflict With Robert Nickelsberg
Episode Stats
Summary
On this episode of the Art of Manliness podcast, Brett McKay sits down with Robert Nicholsberg, a veteran photojournalist who has spent his career in some of the most dangerous parts of the world, capturing moments for newspapers and magazines.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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Well, today on the show, we have a veteran photojournalist who has spent his career in
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some of the most dangerous parts of the world, capturing moments for newspapers and magazines.
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His name is Robert Nicholsberg, and he spent his career in some really crazy places, Nicaragua
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during the conflict that happened there during the late 1970s, in India, Pakistan, and he
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spent a great deal of time in Afghanistan after the Soviet Union began withdrawing their
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And he's been there all the way through 2013 and seeing what was going on there with the
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Anyway, today on the show, Robert and I discuss the life of a photojournalist and someone
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who, particularly a photojournalist, spends his time in some really scary places.
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We talk about how you become a photojournalist, how you got into it, if you're interested in
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that, what you need to do, what drew him to that, was it the adventure?
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We talk about what Afghanistan was like before 9-11.
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We also talk about what manliness means to Afghans, what he gleaned from that, from being
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It was a really fascinating discussion, I think you'll really like it, so let's go
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So, you are a veteran photojournalist and you've spent a great deal of your career in Afghanistan.
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How did you become a photojournalist and how did you end up in Afghanistan, of all places?
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I became a photojournalist in the late 70s as a freelance, starting out in New York City,
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learning the ropes, starting from the ground up, struggling to sell individual prints, individual
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I spent some time in Washington on Capitol Hill learning how that process functions for the
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It's very disciplined and quite different than the rough and tumble street side of being
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And then I ended up in Central America in 1979.
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I had an interest in Nicaragua and particularly the Sandinistas and the conflict brewing there
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with General Somoza, who was a strong U.S. ally.
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I've always been interested in current events and enjoyed traveling and photography certainly
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So, it seems like you've been drawn to places where there's conflict.
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I mean, was it just the sense of adventure because, you know, like some of the great
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writers like Jack London, Ernest Hemingway, you know, they started their careers as reporters
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or they spent some of their careers as reporters in the front lines of conflicts and they were
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Was that you or were you just generally interested in what was going on here?
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No, the sense of adventure needs to be in any profession really to do it effectively.
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But I enjoyed recording the historical moment and the more time I spent at it, the closer
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You could almost put your arms around it and then see it published the next day.
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So, I did have some idea of there's a result from all this effort, whether it's a day's
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And as far as Afghanistan goes, I moved to India for Time Magazine in 1987-88, coming from
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Southeast Asia, and knew that this was a very historical moment in context of the Cold
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A lot of Arab jihadis were also filtering through there, and there was also the beginning of
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the Kashmir conflict inside India, also dependent on the Pakistani political situation, martial
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law in Pakistan and Bangladesh, a civil war in Sri Lanka.
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South Asia was very busy, and it was not on the radar screen the way it is today.
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Thankfully, Time Magazine had an Asian edition out of Hong Kong, which we could publish regularly.
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But aside from the Cold War issues with Gorbachev and Reagan, it was very difficult to get the
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Afghan conflict into publication in the U.S., but I was able to follow it all the way through,
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Because you were there when the Russian started, or the Soviet Union started withdrawing, correct?
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Prior to that, in 1987, there were no visas given during the Russian Army occupation in Kabul.
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And also, if you did get to Kabul, you were very closely monitored.
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So in 1988, my first trip was in January, across the border from Pakistan into Afghanistan for
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And there was still the Mujahideen were fighting the Russians and the Afghan army.
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But there was a truce for the burial of a very well-known Afghan politician from during
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And there was a funeral in the eastern city of Jalalabad in January of 1988.
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That was my first trip across with a visa and my passport.
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And prior to that, you had to go in, cross the border, I guess you could say illegally, but
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go in with Mujahideen and you would be off for a week, two weeks, a month, whatever.
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But in this case, I realized that the story was going to change once the Soviet Army had
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And they allowed journalists to come in in May of 1988 to cover that withdrawal.
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But the first trip that I had in January of 1988 at this funeral in Jalalabad, halfway through
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the funeral ceremony, there were two very, very loud explosions in the parking lot off
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And obviously, it was a set explosion and created complete panic and pandemonium.
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You couldn't figure out how to get home, back across into Pakistan.
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So my first trip in was face-to-face with a violent situation, yet you had to maintain some
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And then three months later, I applied for another visa and got into Kabul for the first time in
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Those three months, we were able to get a number of visas to go in and spend time there.
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When you were there at the beginning, what was it like to be a photographer?
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Because if I remember correctly, there were rules, particularly with the Taliban, about no photography.
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You can't take pictures of people or something like that.
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Well, the Taliban came out of the Mujahideen, which came out of the Afghan army, the Communist
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Party of Afghanistan, which came out of the Soviet occupation.
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Pictures were not prohibited in those years from 1988 to 1996 when the Taliban came in.
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In fact, taking pictures of women is frowned upon, and that was true in those years prior to the
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But generally, Afghans like to have their pictures taken.
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The Taliban initiated these very strict guidelines in 1996.
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And yet, off the side, Taliban would like to have their pictures taken as soon as their
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But if you were careful and tried to be as unassuming as possible, you could work, not in
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What is it about, like, why do they want their picture taken?
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Or, I mean, this wasn't the time of digital cameras where you could show them right away.
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No, they were very unfamiliar with outside media.
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They had one government radio station, one government television station, one newspaper.
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And when you have barely 30% literacy in that country, and it's 80% agricultural, wherever
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you go, there's really no concept of publishing or having your picture seen is often done from
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a marriage, from a special situation, an anniversary of some sort, a graduation.
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Maybe Afghans had their pictures taken then, but there were no photo labs.
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There were very few wedding photographers, for instance.
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And this sort of confirms their identity, if you will.
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I never found it completely impossible not to work there.
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The reporter could interview, but I couldn't photograph in many situations.
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So it became a challenge to go out into the general public and to try to work that way, rather
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than photograph a leader during an interview, for instance.
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But the reporter could record them and take notes, yet I couldn't function in official capacity.
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The minister of justice, who was a very strange fellow under the Taliban, would not allow photographs,
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So how did things change from after 9-11 and the occupation of, you know, the beginning of
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ground forces, U.S. ground forces in Afghanistan?
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What was the change like from before and after?
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The Afghans were very happy to be unshackled and to be much freer with their daily lives.
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And they knew that under the Taliban regime, it was an unnatural situation.
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Afghans are survivors in every sense of the word.
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And those were many restrictions that they had to live with under the Taliban.
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They find them happy, easy to talk to, and easy to steal from.
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Because Afghans are very clever and they're constantly looking for ways to take advantage of you, often in a humorous way, but then also in a very direct way if you cross the line and don't understand their culture or their traditions.
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I had some cameras stolen at a press conference in 1997 at a base of military command, an Afghan military commander, when the Taliban were coming up close to Mazar-e-Sharif up in the northwest.
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And I left some cameras behind the room, went out to get some fresh air, and came back, and the cameras were gone.
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And I created a – and this was in a compound.
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And they found the people who served tea during the press conference and roughed them up, and eventually they got the cameras back.
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It is a great crime, particularly with – Muslims generally don't steal from each other, and the penalties can be severe.
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They – you know, what the Taliban did, they would cut off a hand, corporal punishment.
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And other than that, you just had to expect somebody to try to see if they could get something from you, whether you weren't looking or get into your bag or – it's par for the course.
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Remember, I worked in South Asia, all the countries have a very similar culture that way.
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And you have to tip people, and if you don't, they'll try to come back at you the other way.
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It's just they expect foreigners to give them a tip.
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And there are certain customs and traditions that if you're willing to take the time, be a good observer, you'll see how the local people function.
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And they're, of course, robbed, but it's due to ignorance, really.
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Like, what is the status of a journalist like yourself, like in a conflict zone?
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Um, I mean, how do, how do the, the American troops see you?
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Um, cause sometimes it seems like you're sort of in a no man's land at times if you get really
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Well, you do have to figure where are you the most secure in a chaotic situation that you
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don't always obtain an answer or find a solution to that.
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And that may be what you're referring to, this no man's land, but, um, you certainly want
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to be around the commanding officer or someone who's giving the orders to find out what they're
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trying to do or what they're, what the plan is.
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And then you can go off and see how it's carried out.
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Um, but you do need to introduce yourself with the Americans.
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I've been working with American military since the early 1980s in Central America.
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It provided me with transportation and security to areas I wouldn't be able to get to as a
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It does limit you in that you're not able to talk to the opposition, for instance, whoever
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But, uh, the idea was to see what the Americans in their big military footprint, what they were
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And, uh, I would try to maximize my time with him, whether it was a week, a day, a month,
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uh, living on a base, looking for opportunities to get out on a helicopter, uh, photographing
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daily life of the soldier, uh, whatever it took to spend time with one side or the other
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during the main days in civil ward in downtown Kabul, for instance, you needed to know how
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to get in and out of different neighborhoods, where the frontline was, where to be before sunset
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so you could get out of that area and how good your driver was, uh, find out who the
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You had to do a lot of homework and that would help, uh, with the limited amount of time you
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You have to figure you might be out of there in 20 minutes.
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You have to start working immediately and then ask for permission in some cases rather
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So you have to be able to juggle that kind of a situation as quickly as possible and, uh,
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Find out where the communication center would be, for instance, find out where the clinic
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You can always, if you can't work at the frontline, you can work at the clinic where the wounded
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So you could do both ideally, but you had to plan very carefully how you would spend
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You and I have, uh, exchanged some emails about, uh, situational awareness.
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Like, as you, I don't know, like, did you realize you'd have to learn how to become situationally
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Or was that something you just sort of developed naturally as a matter of being in these, uh,
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environments that with, there were always rapidly changing.
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I think in a lot of, uh, third world countries, developing countries where I lived, remember,
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I didn't parachute into places and go back to first world countries.
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I stayed, uh, four years in El Salvador and you get to know the rhythm of a place as best
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as you possibly can, what to expect, which is often to expect the unexpected, the spontaneous.
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Don't park your car face in and park your car with the rear so you can get out of there
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fast, you know, or if you hire a driver, make sure the driver doesn't, you know, spend his
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time in a restaurant when you most need them to get going, for instance.
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But, uh, yes, situational awareness, you either have it or you don't.
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You can get rusty, certainly, if you're all of a sudden covering the flower show for six
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months and then you drop yourself into a conflict zone, you're going to see that you are a little
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But yes, uh, one of the beauties and one of the main elements that attracts me to developing
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It's also the ambiguous, the gray area, the shade, what's going on.
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Out there and nothing is as clear as we like it here in the United States.
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It's in the maybe zone that, uh, you're going to find an answer to really what's happening.
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How long have you been back in the States for a continuing period?
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I moved back to the United States in, uh, 1999, 2000, but I continued to go overseas and I
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continued to go to Afghanistan and India, uh, throughout that period.
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Well, when I was here, um, and the last trip to Afghanistan was in May of 2013 for the last
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Uh, since moving back to the States, the States, you know, having lived close to 25 years outside
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of, uh, the U S I'm relatively new to my own country and getting to know it, uh, again, uh,
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I've, I've worked a lot around the nine 11 issue.
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Um, once that happened, certainly with the Homeland security department and counterterrorism
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all the way down to street gangs in, in Los Angeles with the Los Angeles police department,
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Mark Mara Salvatrucha, MS-13 street gangs from Central America that are very violent here.
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I found to be a legacy of the time that I spent in Central America, actually, uh, many people
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who came North as, uh, immigrants, then got pulled into these street gangs after I left
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So it was a way for me to tie those, uh, environments together.
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Uh, and particularly now I've, I've worked, uh, quite a bit on human trafficking as well
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as, uh, Muslims in America on post nine 11, uh, how they handle, uh, being targeted or how
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they integrate themselves in daily life in the U S um, very much issue oriented.
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So, um, I'm curious about this and it's okay if you don't have a full answer for it.
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Um, but you had a chance to be up and up close and personal with, uh, Afghans.
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And I'm curious if you observed anything about their notions of masculinity that are different
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from say in the United States, or was it different from tribe to tribe, or was there sort of an
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Well, there's a great amount of pride in, uh, either the tribe or the individual.
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And there's still from the rural areas to the urban areas, you will see a difference
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obviously, but they're very independent people.
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Uh, there's certain sensitive areas that as Westerners, you don't talk about and, uh,
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particularly about their family or about the women in their family, for instance, you have
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Um, and also I noticed that things start off very formally, uh, and within an hour you've
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made a friend for a very long time and they're looking for ways to see if you can be trusted.
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Uh, remember there's, the contracts are not signed there.
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So trust, faith, confidence, um, really has to be built up over a period of time, whether
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you have a half an hour with somebody or, or, or three, four or five years as a neighbor.
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Uh, they, they, they want to feel confident about you and they certainly do exert their
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Elders must be listened to, particularly the men and women are very often kept, uh, down
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in a sense, the way we look at gender equality in this country and in Europe, for instance,
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women are, are, uh, uh, in a not so subtle way looked at as property.
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So it's not that difficult for a male to, uh, exert his authority, uh, over his family
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Um, it's a complicated issue in that country, gender equality, and it's not easily addressed
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in the, in the countryside as much as it might be evident in, in urban cities.
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That's also true in India and Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, all the countries that I worked
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So, uh, it, it comes through in different ways.
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Uh, you can know somebody in Afghanistan for 10 years yet never meet their wife in a very
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traditional family, or there'll be, the daughters will come out and then eventually you might
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There might be more than one and you have to figure out whether or not you can reach out
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and shake their hand the way we, so, uh, our first reaction is to shake people's hands.
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Are you there, you wait to see if the woman will put their hand out and the, and the males
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And I think they, there might be subtle indications that there's a masculinity difference between
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the cultures and then some not so subtle, the way you cannot intervene if a woman is being
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Well, you pretty much have to go across the street and, and not bother, whereas that kind
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So it's slightly complicated, but, uh, it's a very good question and point that you raise.
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So I'm sure there's some folks who are listening to this and we have a lot of younger guys, um,
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who are like, they'd want to become a photojournalist.
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Um, if for those guys, what's your advice for them?
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If that's the way they want their career to be, what's the best way to get started?
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Well, the best way is to perfect storytelling, uh, whether it's through sound video or still
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photography, uh, we're all storytellers and that can't be, uh, you can perfect it, but whether
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or not that can be learned from zero to a hundred, that's one issue that you have to decide whether
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you're able to tell a story with pictures and how closely you want to work with individuals or do you
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work better in a studio with objects that don't talk back to you or architectural photography, for
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instance. But I also think you need to read, do home, do your homework, become as well informed
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about an issue as you possibly can, and then go out and, uh, try to work from dawn until dusk, work
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with light, work with the elements, understand the machinery that you have. Cameras are just
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machines. It's the person behind it. It really has to figure out aesthetics, sequencing, uh, chronology,
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editing, and all that comes out in the wash as a story and how you present that to editors. So
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it's a, it's a 360 degree approach and that's not as easy as people think it is. You may have
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good impulses, good instincts, but you have to get that under control and have strict discipline
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and a work ethic. Can you have a family with this job? Cause it seems like you travel a lot.
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Uh, journalism, photography is not great for domestic tranquility, I guess you could say,
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but, uh, I, I don't have children. Um, I pretty much led the life of a gypsy, uh, until I was married
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in 2000, uh, but no children. Yes, it is. It, it presents a lot of stress and you better have the
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right partner. That's all I can add to that really respect other people. And, uh, I don't go to work
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and come home at five. That's pretty obvious. Um, and nor, nor do other successful photojournalists
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or videographers or reporters for that matter. It's just not possible. Um, I'm not often around
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for anniversaries or Thanksgiving or Christmas. Uh, and if that can be established, a relationship
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will be able to be maintained. So you gotta be upfront with a potential partner that.
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Uh, it's no secret that I have a bag packed, um, pretty much all the time, or at least I know
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how to do it with one eye closed. Yes. Well, Bob, where can, uh, people learn more about your work?
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I would think the best place, particularly with the Afghanistan work is, uh, the book that's
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recently come out in Afghanistan, a distant war, which is available online, of course, or in bookstores
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and on my website, robertnickelsberg.com. You can see a lot of the work that's, uh, that I've done
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over the years. Fantastic. Well, Bob, this has been a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much for
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your time. Thank you, Brett. Enjoyed it. Our guest today was Robert Nicholsberg. He is a photo
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journalist and he just recently come out with a book called Afghanistan, a distant war. It's a
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collection of just really arresting, beautiful pictures throughout his career in Afghanistan,
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starting in the eighties with the withdrawal Soviet troops, really just beautiful photography.
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Go check it out. You can find that on amazon.com. And like Robert said, you can find out more about
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his work at robertnickelsberg.com. Well, that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness
00:31:57.320
podcast. For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the art of manliness website at
00:32:01.400
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00:32:09.620
doesn't matter what it is. I don't care. Just give us a rating that will help us out and give us some
00:32:13.880
feedback and also let your friends know. We appreciate that as well. Until next time, this is Brett