#113： The Evolutionary Origins of Depression With Jonathan Rottenberg
Episode Stats
Summary
In this episode, Dr. Jonathan Rottenberg discusses his new book, "The Depths: The Evolutionary Origins of the Depression Epidemic," and how this theory can change our understanding of depression and how we approach treating it.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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So back in March and April, this is March and April of 2015, this year, we did an in-depth
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series about depression, the symptoms of depression, what causes depression, how depression affects
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men differently than from women, and also what you can do to manage your depression.
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A lot of people resonated with that because they or someone they knew was struggling with
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And one book that really resonated with me as I was researching for the series was a book
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called The Depths, The Evolutionary Origins of the Depression Epidemic.
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He is a professor of psychology at the University of South Florida.
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He specializes in emotion, particularly with an emphasis on major depressive disorder.
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Anyways, in his book, The Depths, he makes the case that depression is actually an evolved
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tendency or trait in human beings, and that at one time, it served an adaptive purpose
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in our long-ago past, and that today, the reason why we see so many people depressed is that
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our environment, we're just not, our emotional system isn't set up for our modern environment
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with all the stress and lack of sleep and the sedentary lifestyle, et cetera, et cetera.
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It's a fascinating book, and it gives you a much more nuanced view of depression.
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And so today on the show, Dr. Rottenberg, are going to discuss this theory, this evolutionary
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theory of the origins of depression, and then how this view of depression can change how
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So if you are struggling with depression, or you know that, if you know someone who's
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struggling with depression, I think you'll get a lot out of the show, a lot of interesting
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But before we get into the meat of your book, because it's just completely fascinating, can
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Because, you know, I'm writing a series of posts about depression right now, and I've been
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And it seems like every book I've read has a different idea or conception of depression.
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I'm honestly like, I'm more confused now about depression than I was before.
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And so how do you, I mean, what is depression for you?
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Yeah, the definition is very important, because how you define the problem is going to very
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much guide you to the kind of solution that you might follow.
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So depression for me, and this actually does follow the psychiatric definition of depression,
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is a mood condition, which is to say people who are depressed report that they feel low,
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And they also report that they're unable to experience pleasure in the things that normally
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brought them joy, things that they were normally interested in, that joy, that pleasure is now
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And it's a mood state that, unlike ordinary sadness, you know, when you might experience
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some kind of disappointment, or you might have a setback, this sadness is very hard to shake.
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In clinical depression, a person not only has this low mood, but then has a number of other
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symptoms that are associated with the low mood that go on for weeks, they can go on for months,
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So in addition to the low mood, a person will have trouble sleeping, they might lose their
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appetite, they have trouble concentrating, they're very fatigued.
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And some of the most troubling, you know, parts of depression is a person feels that life is not
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worth living. They might think about hurting themselves, and they might even attempt suicide.
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And tragically, some people who have depression die by suicide. So the symptoms can be very,
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Okay. And you talked about mood, and that's sort of interesting, because you come from a
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mood science perspective. That's what you do, is mood science. Can you explain what mood is? I mean,
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how is that different from, say, temperament or feelings?
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Well, mood is a very important organizing idea in psychology, because our moods not only reflect
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our feelings. So we talk about, I'm in a good mood, I'm in a bad mood. And feelings are a part of what
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mood is. But moods also organize us. So when we're in a good mood, we not only feel good, but we're
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prepared to take certain actions. So for example, I'm in a good mood, and that's when I want to get
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together with friends. That's when I want to have fun. Conversely, when I'm in a really low mood,
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I tend to withdraw. And the mood actually makes me more likely or less likely to do certain things.
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So moods actually have this ability to kind of harness, so to change our cognitions, to change
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what's going on in our body. And so they're more than just a feeling state. They actually organize
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Okay. And humans aren't the only ones who experience moods. Animals do as well?
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Yeah. I mean, you could have an interesting conversation about where in the phylogenetic
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chain does mood begin? Does an amoeba, because it can approach a nutrition gradient, have mood? Well,
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probably that's too elastic a term. But certainly other mammals, they have brains that are very
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similar in how they're organized to us. They have many of the same evolutionary goals, to
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survive, to reproduce, to mate, to make alliances and so forth. And they too have moods to help
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organize these activities. Even though they can't report, a chimpanzee cannot report, I'm feeling
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sad. It nevertheless, when the mother chimpanzee sees the baby chimpanzee die, it has a very
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similar behaviors and very similar things going on inside the mother chimp's body as humans
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do when they're grieving the loss of their own infant.
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Yeah. I think you write about that in the book. And it's actually, it's really sad reading
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about what happens when a chimp mourns the death of her baby. I mean, she holds it and tries
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to like revive it. And it's really touching. I don't know. It was pretty sad.
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Yeah, it is sad. But it's also, if you think about it, we should be grateful that we have
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this capacity. When something really bad happens, like you're a mother and you've just invested
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nine months in a baby and your baby dies, this is a moment to stop and think about what your
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next move is. It's not, it's not a, uh, in, in humans, uh, grief, the loss of a loved one is
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almost a universal, I mean, across different cultures, across history. Um, there are many
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different rituals for grief, but always there is this, uh, stopping and pausing and low mood
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again, organizes that. It forces us to think, what does this person mean to us? What do we
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do now, now that they're gone? How do we carry on? Um, and, and, and this is actually useful.
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Imagine if we paid no attention and we just went on, uh, as we were before, um, when something
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that serious happened, maybe they, they died because, um, there was an illness sweeping the,
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the, the land or because, uh, there were enemies about. Death is always a sign to pay attention
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what's going on and what can we learn from this. So it's low mood makes us stop. It makes us
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analyze the environment really carefully in part. So you don't repeat the same mistakes that got us
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into the situation in the first place. Okay. And so that sort of, that leads us into sort of the,
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the meat of your book and you make the case that depression may be, may have an evolutionary purpose.
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And so the, when people hear that, I mean, I guess the first thing people that came to my mind was
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like, how could something that we see as maladaptive? Cause no one wants to be depressed, right? It makes
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us feel terrible. And, uh, you want to just stay home all the time and not do anything. How can that
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be adaptive? Well, you have to, um, think about evolution and what the point of evolution is.
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The point of evolution is survival reproduction. The point of evolution is not happiness. And so there
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are many things that evolution has clearly selected for that are not pleasant. So in addition to low mood,
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pain, uh, pain comes out a very good example. When you feel pain, you will, uh, guard an injured
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site in your body. You won't move it. Uh, and pain makes you not want to do things sort of like
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depression makes you not want to do things. But again, if you didn't have it, uh, you would be
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unable to heal, uh, and a serious injury would become much worse. Similarly, uh, anxiety, which is
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another, it's a very unpleasant state, but if we were unable to anticipate dangers, um, those organisms
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that were unable to anticipate dangers, sadly are no longer with us. And so we're, we're left with
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this evolutionary, uh, legacy to be capable of these anxiety states, which sometimes become very
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unpleasant. Just like low mood sometimes becomes very unpleasant and can even become very crippling.
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But that, that capacity, the ability to have low mood in the first place, uh, I think the evidence
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is pretty good that we see this across, across species. And, uh, it's not an accident that in
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across cultures and across species, there is this capacity.
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So what, I mean, what, why do we get depressed? I mean, what, what, what purpose does it serve
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just to, to withdraw if things aren't right and sort of reevaluate? Is that the purpose of?
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Yeah. So the, the mood system is incredibly sensitive to a whole variety of clues, cues that
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are related to, to, uh, survival and reproduction. So for example, over, over the eons, uh, when it's
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dark, we're much less active. That's, there are no rewards, uh, at night that you can't hunt a,
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it's very hard to find edible berries by the moonlight. Uh, and conversely, when it's light out,
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um, we typically have access to rewards. And so we feel we've, our mood is much higher. And so we
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typically, and, and you'd see this, you know, here in the Northern hemisphere, uh, during the winter,
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people tend to experience more low mood. So that's one contribution. Another contribution is your
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physical health. And so when you have a, if you have a fever, uh, and you're ill, your mood is much
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lower. And again, that's to force you to slow down, uh, to, to not, uh, pursue a goals as vigorously
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to allow your body to recover. But moods are also sensitive to the psychological state. So people,
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uh, does the situation. So people, uh, experience a variety of shocks, whether it's, they, uh, get a
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poor grade on a test or they get rebuffed by a lover or they have problems on the job in mood is
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responsive to those situations as, as well, in part for the same reasons that, uh, there's some
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situations like imagine you get fired from your job where this now you're in a predicament. You have
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to figure out what to do next. You should not hastily, uh, you should not hastily proceed when
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you've, uh, when you've experienced such a big loss. So there's a variety of, the variety of things
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that can push people into a low mood. And unfortunately what's happening now is that our
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perfectly good adaptation low mood is being set. It's being set off by a very large number of different
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things at the same time, kind of creating the, the perfect storm for mood, which explains why so
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many people are experiencing low mood and so many people are experiencing more severe depression for
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long periods of time. Well, what are those things that are pushing more and more people into a low
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mood? Um, well, so to stay on the, um, the example of, uh, of light. So, you know, we were, we,
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we evolved in that context of the rotating earth and 24 hour cycle of light and dark with, uh, uh,
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reliably feeling, uh, more energy and alertness at, at, uh, during the daytime than at night.
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Humans, when they, uh, moved into, to, uh, villages and started farming in permanent settlements,
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initially that was okay. But as they stayed in permanent settlements and became more urbanized,
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people got less and less daylight. And in more recent times, um, this has really increased
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dramatically so that even in very sunny parts of the world, there's one study in San Diego,
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the average citizen is getting less than a half an hour of sunlight. And this is one of the most
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sunny places in the United States a day. And that's kind of been replaced with, uh, light that people
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are getting at night, which is a really poor substitute for daylight. So for example, people
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are, uh, lying in bed, uh, and looking at their, uh, laptop screens and their iPhone screens, uh, or
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their TVs. And this is, this is having a bunch of bad effects. So the, the light does not benefit
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of the mood system, but it also tricks the body and it, it makes people, makes it harder for people
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to get to sleep. And sleep is another thing which is very tied to mood. So people are having more and
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more, um, problems with sleep in part because of these routines and because of the hectic lives
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that people often lead are getting less and less sleep. And so I would say two of the things that I
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would immediately, um, say have changed that are contributing to this depression epidemic are a
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lack of light in sleep. Unfortunately, there are, there are a number of other things. Um, like I
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said, it was, it's kind of the perfect storm. So there are also, there are also things going on in
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the psychological environment that I think are very harmful, uh, to mood that I hope we have a chance
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to talk about. Yeah. Like what are the, is it just the, um, our market economy? Is it, uh, just the
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constant stress of information overload and what, what are some of those things? Well, some of the
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things are, some of the things are actually quite paradoxical. Um, so, you know, again, the typical
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view of depression is that it's about defects and things that the person is doing wrong. And, you
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know, people talk about a, uh, defective brain or defective genes and so forth. But I think that the
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reason that there is so much depression is really not so much because of things that humans don't do
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well or individual people who, who, who are defective as things that humans are really, really good at.
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So for example, humans are really, really good at setting goals and they're really good actually
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at setting goals about very abstract things. For example, setting goals about their happiness.
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And one thing that has changed dramatically in the last 30 years or so is that more and more people
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have set these goals, uh, that I am going to be very happy. Now that may sound like a benign goal,
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but at no time in human history have people, uh, so many people trying to deliver the state of kind
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of reliable euphoria. Um, the mood system again is, it's designed to absolutely periodically deliver
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a burst of pleasure when you've, you know, when, when your first date asks you to the prom or,
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you know, you, uh, you, uh, you buy a groovy new car, uh, you, you do, you do get that shot of
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pleasure, but people have this belief that they can feel happy all the time. And actually there
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are books that you can buy, uh, that essentially say, uh, here are the three steps that you need
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to take, uh, in order to feel happy all the time. And it sounds benign, but what's actually happening
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is that many people are, uh, feeling okay or feeling somewhat, uh, down or depressed, but they're
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wondering, why am I not happier? Is there something wrong with me? My, why am I not as happy as the
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people that I see on Facebook, my friends, I see their perfect vacations and their perfect families,
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um, that they compare themselves to these other people and they compare to their, their mood to
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what they think they ought to feel. And they feel a lot worse and they start to feel very discouraged,
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but it might be helpful to know that in reality, um, in no time in human history have ever people felt
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happy all the time. It really is an illusion. Well, so what should the goal be? Uh, you know,
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if you shouldn't focus on happiness, what should you focus on? Sure. I think that, um, it is important
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to, to find things that are, that are meaningful in your life and as a consequence, uh, of pursuing
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those, those goals. So for example, I'll, I'll bring my own case into this. So, uh, I, before I wrote
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this book, this is actually, you know, more than 20 years ago, uh, I experienced a very severe episode
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of depression that lasted a very long time and it took a very long time for me to figure out how to
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kind of rebuild my life. And I, and I think that many of the reasons that I experienced depression
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is that I did not have a lot of different activities, um, that I, you know, found meaningful
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and, and, and, and I find the study of mood to be very valuable. And I also find the advocacy work
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that I'm doing, uh, to help people, uh, who have depression be less isolating, that that also is
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very meaningful. I started a family. I've now have more hobbies. When I, when I had to, uh, depression
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initially, I really had put all of my eggs into one basket. I had this goal that I was going to become
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a famous historian. And when that wasn't going well, everything kind of collapsed. So I guess I
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would say, um, to kind of summarize my experience, and I think it would be relevant to, to a lot of
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people who are listening to your show is having a diversity of things that are meaningful to you,
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uh, that are important to you. Don't worry about whether you're ecstatically happy one day that you
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will, you will, as a by-product of pursuing things that are meaningful, experience more wellbeing, um,
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than if you simply have the goal, uh, to be happier, which is kind of like the goal. It's one
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of these goals that, uh, the harder you run, the faster the treadmill goes. Um, it's, it's sort of an
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impossible goal. So, uh, here's a question I have. Um, you know, you're talking about some of these
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benefits of low mood, that it allows us time to reflect, uh, maybe informs us that maybe this is
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a goal we should stop pursuing and maybe pursue something else. But when does, when does that low
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mood shift to like severe depression where that, the costs outweigh the benefits? That's a great
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question. And it's not a question that has a really easy answer. Um, again, um,
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many things that humans are great at, um, and I think are admirable qualities, um, are important
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and I would not speak against. So, you know, this idea that if you, if you're, if you're failing,
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uh, if you're failing at an important goal in America, um, we're always told that no matter what,
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you must persist, uh, in, in part because, you know, from a young age, kids are told that you can do
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anything. And I, I don't want to be, you know, cast as, uh, as the gloomy person who says that you
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should give up on goals, you know, at the slightest idea, that's low mood telling you, you know, to
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disinvest and so forth. But at some point in many people persist, whether it's in a marriage, whether
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it's in a career, um, whether it's in some other venture, fame to achieve great riches, they persist,
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um, for a number of years in this, in spite of this escalating low mood, when, if they were able
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to disengage and think about some other things that they could do with their time to kind of, again,
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diversify their portfolio or maybe, um, develop a completely different goal completely that this,
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this depression, which of course at the time was very destructive and very painful, may end up in
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the long view being something that, uh, they're thankful for, that they, um, wouldn't trade, um,
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because it, it helped them see, uh, other possibilities. But in the current, in our current
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system, we only see depression as a sign of weakness. We see depression as, as a, you know, a broken brain
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or cognitions that need to be changed. And so people are really unable to make any use of,
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of these depressions, you know, kind of are, are, have been listening to Prozac, but not depression,
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Okay. Well, so, I mean, you've kind of hit on this a little bit, you know, using this mood, uh,
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evolutionary perspective, you know, someone who's struggling with depression, I mean, what's the best
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way to approach it? I mean, I guess you don't, you don't, do you try to cure depression or is it
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better to just try to manage it? You try to manage it. Absolutely. In the, the really, I think,
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good news, you know, the, the book has a lot of, you know, alarming, um, facts about the direction
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that we're headed in the, the difficulty of controlling depression, um, you know, as a public
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health matter. So the, the incidence of depression is very high. It's concentrated in young people,
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but there's also a lot of good news, especially when you take this mood science perspective,
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because moods are responsive to so many different things. So I absolutely, if someone wanted to, to
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try medications, which are the dominant approach to depression, I, I would say that's fine, but don't
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limit yourself. Uh, you can also change your moods by changing your, uh, your, your thoughts. So, um,
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people often have very negative thoughts during a depression. They're often very, uh, harsh and
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self-accusatory kinds of thoughts. And there are, there are, there are both formal treatments in
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books that people can read to try to get a little bit better control over their thoughts. People can
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improve their mood by simply learning to tolerate the low moods better, which is another problem that,
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um, happens when you're, when you're, um, fixated on feeling happy all the time that these low moods
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become just intolerable. You can change your physical routines. So things that, you know,
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I mean, I, I think many people know are benefit, uh, mood can even be beneficial to people who are
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really struggling with, with more significant low mood, like exercise, uh, in getting more sunlight,
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uh, you changing your social environment. So what happens in, in depression is that people tend to
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withdraw and it's very understandable. You feel like hell, you don't want to talk to anyone. You
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feel like you have nothing to say, but the extent to which you can schedule in some social interactions,
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maybe, you know, you take it slow, but this is another way that, um, by changing your social
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environment, you can, you can change your mood. And finally, and this might take more time, but I think
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ultimately, you know, can be part of the solution for many people is really re-examining your goals.
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Maybe you're, you're, you, uh, are committed to goals that really aren't working for you.
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Some people, you know, aren't able to do this all on their own and that's okay. I mean, um, I would say
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if you have the ability to, um, uh, to find a therapist to work with, uh, for any of these issues,
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I think that can be very helpful. Um, so I guess the mood approach is very eclectic in the sense
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that, um, it sees that there are all these different tools available and that people should
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absolutely make use of them. Here's what do you tell the person who, cause I've had, I've known
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people who have been in such a depressive state that they just have no motivation. And the thought
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of even doing some of these things that you've talked about is just, uh, it just seems impossible.
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So how do you bootstrap, right? To get to that point where you just, you know, you get out and
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you change your social situation or you get out into the sun or, you know, to do those things that
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can help your mood when you're just incapacitated. Yeah, that's a great point. And so room wasn't
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built in a day. And I think also it's very important to tell people who are struggling with depression
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that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with them, that they will, they will eventually get better
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control over this mood state, but it may take some time. And, and I, and, and I really think it is
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dangerous, um, to over promise. Um, but the, but telling people that, you know, from decades of
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epidemiology that even the worst depression eventually will lift. And the goal would be,
00:25:57.500
what can we do to accelerate that lifting? What often happens that the folks that you're describing,
00:26:03.220
and it's understandable when you feel so bad, uh, that they've kind of, they've kind of lost morale.
00:26:09.080
They've lost a belief that things can change. They've lost a belief in themselves. And so before
00:26:15.360
people can really, uh, take the kinds of, some of the actions that I'm talking about, um, I think it's
00:26:22.400
important to, um, to check in with them about their morale and be understanding that, uh, that it may take
00:26:28.800
some time, but that they're going to prevail. I mean, there's no question that one way or the other,
00:26:34.680
you will outlast this depression, whether you can, um, whether you can hasten, uh, hasten its exit,
00:26:42.140
whether you can learn from it, that's, you know, that's more up for grabs. Um, but, you know, often
00:26:48.100
people have been, I think they've been kind of led down the garden path, maybe given false promises.
00:26:53.960
If they do this treatment in six weeks, they, they'll have, you know, they'll be, uh, totally
00:26:59.480
better. And then they're very disappointed and then they don't believe the next person, um, who
00:27:05.220
makes promises to them. So, um, you know, I think, I think, uh, the, the point about being very honest
00:27:10.800
with people is important. So yeah, what does recovery look like? Um, because I think some people
00:27:16.820
have this idea that, okay, if I do these things, if I, you know, do cognitive behavioral therapy,
00:27:21.940
or I take this medication, then, you know, one day I'll just wake up and I'll just be happy.
00:27:27.460
Um, is it, is it more gradual? Is it any, is it, you don't become happy? Is it just so you're not
00:27:32.720
depressed? I mean, what does that look like? Yeah. And I wish that there was more conversation
00:27:36.860
about exactly this. Cause I think this is really interesting and, and under discussed. So even what
00:27:43.180
is the goal of treatment? Um, you know, if you just talk to people in psychiatry, so, you know,
00:27:48.940
in mainstream psychiatry, would they treat with medications, the goal of treatment? Well,
00:27:53.740
it's to reduce your symptoms and that is great. Um, but people are often satisfied that they've
00:28:00.340
reduced your symptoms to, to a degree. Um, I think that we need to set the bar a bit higher. Um,
00:28:07.820
I think the goal ultimately has to be that the person is satisfied with their life, that they're no
00:28:13.400
longer, uh, they're not, no longer troubled by a depression that they can't manage. There may still
00:28:19.780
be, you know, there may still be ups and downs. There may still be some symptoms, but I think it's
00:28:25.920
really important to have an explicit conversation about what is, what is the goal actually? Because
00:28:31.020
I, I don't think that, you know, by just saying, well, we'd like to reduce your symptoms, that's,
00:28:36.560
I think, setting the bar kind of low. This, just saying that you have low symptoms could mean
00:28:41.660
that you're still having problems with your sleep, that you're still having, uh, concentration
00:28:46.020
difficulties or, and that you're still having trouble enjoying things. Um, I think it would
00:28:51.700
be great to think more broadly about, again, um, this more purposeful life that as a, you know,
00:28:57.180
as a consequence of that, that is a consequence of figuring out some better strategies to, to manage
00:29:04.240
your low mood. You're just not as dominated by it. I think that really is the goal to not be
00:29:09.700
dominated by your moods. It's, they're going to be a part of your life. You may not always
00:29:14.500
want the moods. You may not always like the moods that you're having, but moods are no longer your
00:29:20.760
enemy. Uh, moods are to a greater extent, your friend and something that you can use. Um, but,
00:29:27.500
you know, so often people might get better for a time and then the depression comes back and they
00:29:31.960
feel powerless. I mean, that can be even the worst, the worst thing about, uh, about a depression
00:29:37.560
is this uncertainty, um, and this feeling that having no, no power over your mood whatsoever.
00:29:44.780
I should have asked this earlier. Um, but I've read, are there differences between the way men and
00:29:51.040
women express depression or experience it, or is it pretty much the same? There are some differences.
00:29:57.560
Um, depression is a, is a bit more common in women. And so in some ways, um, uh, our kind of,
00:30:04.780
our template for depression is a female one. I think that's unfortunate, uh, because even if women,
00:30:11.420
if, even if depression is more common in women than it is in men, depression is so common in people
00:30:17.260
that it's incredibly common in men. And, and men may feel less comfortable talking about their
00:30:23.560
depression in that it, society has identified this as a female problem. And again, it's connected
00:30:29.840
to this notion of weakness and men of course are not allowed. Uh, they're not allowed by the dominant
00:30:35.180
culture to, uh, to express vulnerability or weakness. So I think it is much as difficult as
00:30:41.200
it is to be depressed for anyone. It's even more difficult for a man to struggle with depression,
00:30:47.480
uh, in that there, there is some greater, uh, barrier to letting other people know what's
00:30:54.320
happening. It can be hard to get help. That certainly was true in my own case. Um, ideas
00:31:00.160
about masculinity can be kind of a, it can be an impediment to getting help and getting depression
00:31:05.700
under control. Um, so you, in the book, and I thought it was really interesting, you talk about
00:31:12.000
possibly reframing or, you know, looking at your depression in a positive light and that it could
00:31:18.860
be instructive and helpful or even finding meaning in the depression. You know, how do you go about
00:31:24.420
doing that and how does that help someone? Well, it, you know, whether or not your depression is
00:31:32.840
helpful or, or, or, or harmful really is something that you're only going to, um, be able to determine
00:31:39.220
depression years later. Uh, it's not, it's not, it's not, I'm not suggesting that it's some eureka
00:31:46.760
moment, um, because their depression in mood generally is, it is connected to the, very often
00:31:54.620
to the overall trajectory of, of one's life. And, and whether or not you've learned all that you can
00:32:02.040
learn from the situation that you're in, um, takes a lot of time. So in my own case, um, I,
00:32:09.220
I experienced this depression, which I believe was related to, uh, I mentioned having all of my
00:32:17.560
career aspirations and all my eggs in one basket, but it was also related to a certain idea of who I
00:32:25.420
was, uh, and I saw myself as a, as a kind of a creature of the mind. And, and when I started
00:32:33.900
experiencing depression, my mental faculties really deteriorated, uh, and I was no, no longer
00:32:40.500
able to do that kind of work. And that was very threatening to me and made the depression that
00:32:45.100
much worse. So I learned, you know, in my case, I learned, uh, that many things, uh, many of, many of
00:32:53.980
the ideas that I had, uh, were wrong. Um, and I really learned, uh, that I could do something
00:33:01.340
different, um, and going into a new field. Uh, I think for other people, the lessons are going to
00:33:08.360
be very different. There's no one universal meaning of, of what depression is in part because
00:33:14.580
it can be provoked by so many different things. So, you know, depression can result from, uh, from,
00:33:22.400
from very physical things. So for example, if someone is, uh, starving and they, they, they did
00:33:30.360
research on this in the second world war, people experience very low mood as a secondary, you know,
00:33:36.740
as a secondary feature of not getting enough nutrition. So it, there's not a, there's not
00:33:42.600
always some grand psychological interpretation, but there often is, uh, it often does have meaning,
00:33:50.160
but you don't know immediately what it is. Well, Jonathan, where can people find out more
00:33:55.420
about your work? Well, in addition to reading, uh, reading my book, I regularly, uh, blog on,
00:34:01.420
uh, psychology today, uh, and a blog is called charting the depths and the Huffington post.
00:34:07.280
And if they're interested in, uh, any of the advocacy work that I'm doing, because I, you know,
00:34:12.400
talking with you as part of starting a broader conversation about depression, uh, and I'm very
00:34:17.920
interested in doing that. Uh, so, uh, have a group called come out of the dark. So if people,
00:34:23.140
if you were even to Google the term, come out of the dark and come out of the dark campaign,
00:34:27.420
you'll see a number of links that come up that are describing that activity. We have, uh, we have
00:34:33.060
an active Facebook presence. Uh, so the goal really is to expand our conversation about depression,
00:34:38.620
to get people to, to, uh, kind of challenge the dominant way of seeing depression as being about
00:34:45.140
defects and to create a society where we, uh, devote. Um, we understand depression better and
00:34:52.540
we're more tolerant of people who have struggled with the depression and we make use of the people
00:34:57.180
who have struggled in, have come out the other side. Fantastic. Well, Jonathan Rottenberg, thank
00:35:01.980
you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure. Oh, it's a delight to talk to you. Thank you very
00:35:05.600
much. Our guest today was Dr. Jonathan Rottenberg. He's the author of the book, The Depths,
00:35:10.260
The Evolutionary Origins of the Depression Empidemic. You can find that on amazon.com and other
00:35:15.160
bookstores. Also check out his Facebook page. Uh, just search for Jonathan Rottenberg. That's R-O-T-T-E-N-B-R-G
00:35:22.300
on Facebook, or you can go to facebook.com slash charting dot the dot depths. He posts a lot of
00:35:29.520
interesting articles, uh, latest research about depression. I think you'll find a lot of useful
00:35:33.720
information there. Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For
00:35:40.240
more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at
00:35:43.560
artofmanliness.com. And if you enjoy the show, you've gotten something out of it. I'd really
00:35:47.500
appreciate it if you would give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher, whatever it is you
00:35:51.740
use to listen to the podcast that helps us get the word out about the podcast. So I'd really
00:35:56.460
appreciate that. Also, if you can just recommend the podcast to a friend, uh, I'd appreciate
00:36:00.860
that as well. Anyways, until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.