The Art of Manliness - #113： The Evolutionary Origins of Depression With Jonathan Rottenberg

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:18.740 So back in March and April, this is March and April of 2015, this year, we did an in-depth

00:00:25.420 series about depression, the symptoms of depression, what causes depression, how depression affects

00:00:30.780 men differently than from women, and also what you can do to manage your depression.

00:00:36.420 A lot of people resonated with that because they or someone they knew was struggling with

00:00:40.280 depression.

00:00:41.320 And one book that really resonated with me as I was researching for the series was a book

00:00:47.740 called The Depths, The Evolutionary Origins of the Depression Epidemic.

00:00:52.220 It's by Dr. Jonathan Rottenberg.

00:00:54.300 He is a professor of psychology at the University of South Florida.

00:00:59.060 He specializes in emotion, particularly with an emphasis on major depressive disorder.

00:01:04.680 Anyways, in his book, The Depths, he makes the case that depression is actually an evolved

00:01:11.840 tendency or trait in human beings, and that at one time, it served an adaptive purpose

00:01:18.820 in our long-ago past, and that today, the reason why we see so many people depressed is that

00:01:25.020 our environment, we're just not, our emotional system isn't set up for our modern environment

00:01:30.260 with all the stress and lack of sleep and the sedentary lifestyle, et cetera, et cetera.

00:01:34.880 It's a fascinating book, and it gives you a much more nuanced view of depression.

00:01:40.100 And so today on the show, Dr. Rottenberg, are going to discuss this theory, this evolutionary

00:01:43.720 theory of the origins of depression, and then how this view of depression can change how

00:01:50.220 we approach treating it.

00:01:52.540 So if you are struggling with depression, or you know that, if you know someone who's

00:01:56.220 struggling with depression, I think you'll get a lot out of the show, a lot of interesting

00:01:59.460 insights.

00:02:00.280 So let's do this.

00:02:05.860 Jonathan Rottenberg, welcome to the show.

00:02:08.260 Thank you for having me.

00:02:09.080 So your book is called The Depths.

00:02:11.780 It's about depression.

00:02:13.600 But before we get into the meat of your book, because it's just completely fascinating, can

00:02:19.300 we start with this?

00:02:19.780 Like, what is depression?

00:02:21.180 Because, you know, I'm writing a series of posts about depression right now, and I've been

00:02:24.740 doing so much research about it.

00:02:26.740 And it seems like every book I've read has a different idea or conception of depression.

00:02:32.940 And it's confusing.

00:02:34.200 I'm honestly like, I'm more confused now about depression than I was before.

00:02:39.080 And so how do you, I mean, what is depression for you?

00:02:42.620 How do you define it?

00:02:44.600 Yeah, the definition is very important, because how you define the problem is going to very

00:02:50.900 much guide you to the kind of solution that you might follow.

00:02:56.560 So depression for me, and this actually does follow the psychiatric definition of depression,

00:03:06.000 is a mood condition, which is to say people who are depressed report that they feel low,

00:03:12.280 they feel sad, they feel blue.

00:03:14.080 And they also report that they're unable to experience pleasure in the things that normally

00:03:22.000 brought them joy, things that they were normally interested in, that joy, that pleasure is now

00:03:29.300 absent.

00:03:30.100 And it's a mood state that, unlike ordinary sadness, you know, when you might experience

00:03:37.880 some kind of disappointment, or you might have a setback, this sadness is very hard to shake.

00:03:47.540 In clinical depression, a person not only has this low mood, but then has a number of other

00:03:53.520 symptoms that are associated with the low mood that go on for weeks, they can go on for months,

00:04:00.680 they can even go on for years.

00:04:02.880 So in addition to the low mood, a person will have trouble sleeping, they might lose their

00:04:09.120 appetite, they have trouble concentrating, they're very fatigued.

00:04:14.040 And some of the most troubling, you know, parts of depression is a person feels that life is not

00:04:18.840 worth living. They might think about hurting themselves, and they might even attempt suicide.

00:04:24.860 And tragically, some people who have depression die by suicide. So the symptoms can be very,

00:04:31.580 very serious.

00:04:32.880 Okay. And you talked about mood, and that's sort of interesting, because you come from a

00:04:38.180 mood science perspective. That's what you do, is mood science. Can you explain what mood is? I mean,

00:04:42.880 how is that different from, say, temperament or feelings?

00:04:46.060 Well, mood is a very important organizing idea in psychology, because our moods not only reflect

00:04:54.420 our feelings. So we talk about, I'm in a good mood, I'm in a bad mood. And feelings are a part of what

00:05:01.180 mood is. But moods also organize us. So when we're in a good mood, we not only feel good, but we're

00:05:08.080 prepared to take certain actions. So for example, I'm in a good mood, and that's when I want to get

00:05:12.680 together with friends. That's when I want to have fun. Conversely, when I'm in a really low mood,

00:05:22.880 I tend to withdraw. And the mood actually makes me more likely or less likely to do certain things.

00:05:30.160 So moods actually have this ability to kind of harness, so to change our cognitions, to change

00:05:35.980 what's going on in our body. And so they're more than just a feeling state. They actually organize

00:05:42.120 our activities.

00:05:44.100 Okay. And humans aren't the only ones who experience moods. Animals do as well?

00:05:49.120 Yeah. I mean, you could have an interesting conversation about where in the phylogenetic

00:05:55.420 chain does mood begin? Does an amoeba, because it can approach a nutrition gradient, have mood? Well,

00:06:01.520 probably that's too elastic a term. But certainly other mammals, they have brains that are very

00:06:09.500 similar in how they're organized to us. They have many of the same evolutionary goals, to

00:06:14.980 survive, to reproduce, to mate, to make alliances and so forth. And they too have moods to help

00:06:22.500 organize these activities. Even though they can't report, a chimpanzee cannot report, I'm feeling

00:06:28.440 sad. It nevertheless, when the mother chimpanzee sees the baby chimpanzee die, it has a very

00:06:36.160 similar behaviors and very similar things going on inside the mother chimp's body as humans

00:06:41.800 do when they're grieving the loss of their own infant.

00:06:44.260 Yeah. I think you write about that in the book. And it's actually, it's really sad reading

00:06:48.260 about what happens when a chimp mourns the death of her baby. I mean, she holds it and tries 1.00

00:06:53.060 to like revive it. And it's really touching. I don't know. It was pretty sad.

00:06:58.100 Yeah, it is sad. But it's also, if you think about it, we should be grateful that we have

00:07:04.360 this capacity. When something really bad happens, like you're a mother and you've just invested

00:07:10.580 nine months in a baby and your baby dies, this is a moment to stop and think about what your

00:07:20.260 next move is. It's not, it's not a, uh, in, in humans, uh, grief, the loss of a loved one is

00:07:26.660 almost a universal, I mean, across different cultures, across history. Um, there are many

00:07:33.600 different rituals for grief, but always there is this, uh, stopping and pausing and low mood

00:07:41.740 again, organizes that. It forces us to think, what does this person mean to us? What do we

00:07:47.000 do now, now that they're gone? How do we carry on? Um, and, and, and this is actually useful.

00:07:53.500 Imagine if we paid no attention and we just went on, uh, as we were before, um, when something

00:08:00.980 that serious happened, maybe they, they died because, um, there was an illness sweeping the,

00:08:07.220 the, the land or because, uh, there were enemies about. Death is always a sign to pay attention

00:08:13.840 what's going on and what can we learn from this. So it's low mood makes us stop. It makes us

00:08:18.640 analyze the environment really carefully in part. So you don't repeat the same mistakes that got us

00:08:23.840 into the situation in the first place. Okay. And so that sort of, that leads us into sort of the,

00:08:28.240 the meat of your book and you make the case that depression may be, may have an evolutionary purpose.

00:08:37.340 And so the, when people hear that, I mean, I guess the first thing people that came to my mind was

00:08:41.660 like, how could something that we see as maladaptive? Cause no one wants to be depressed, right? It makes

00:08:46.280 us feel terrible. And, uh, you want to just stay home all the time and not do anything. How can that

00:08:51.940 be adaptive? Well, you have to, um, think about evolution and what the point of evolution is.

00:08:58.340 The point of evolution is survival reproduction. The point of evolution is not happiness. And so there

00:09:04.140 are many things that evolution has clearly selected for that are not pleasant. So in addition to low mood,

00:09:11.640 pain, uh, pain comes out a very good example. When you feel pain, you will, uh, guard an injured

00:09:19.780 site in your body. You won't move it. Uh, and pain makes you not want to do things sort of like

00:09:26.200 depression makes you not want to do things. But again, if you didn't have it, uh, you would be

00:09:30.920 unable to heal, uh, and a serious injury would become much worse. Similarly, uh, anxiety, which is

00:09:37.360 another, it's a very unpleasant state, but if we were unable to anticipate dangers, um, those organisms

00:09:45.080 that were unable to anticipate dangers, sadly are no longer with us. And so we're, we're left with

00:09:50.720 this evolutionary, uh, legacy to be capable of these anxiety states, which sometimes become very

00:09:56.940 unpleasant. Just like low mood sometimes becomes very unpleasant and can even become very crippling.

00:10:02.820 But that, that capacity, the ability to have low mood in the first place, uh, I think the evidence

00:10:09.280 is pretty good that we see this across, across species. And, uh, it's not an accident that in

00:10:16.620 across cultures and across species, there is this capacity.

00:10:19.580 So what, I mean, what, why do we get depressed? I mean, what, what, what purpose does it serve

00:10:25.320 just to, to withdraw if things aren't right and sort of reevaluate? Is that the purpose of?

00:10:31.560 Yeah. So the, the mood system is incredibly sensitive to a whole variety of clues, cues that

00:10:40.220 are related to, to, uh, survival and reproduction. So for example, over, over the eons, uh, when it's

00:10:47.220 dark, we're much less active. That's, there are no rewards, uh, at night that you can't hunt a,

00:10:52.160 it's very hard to find edible berries by the moonlight. Uh, and conversely, when it's light out,

00:10:58.160 um, we typically have access to rewards. And so we feel we've, our mood is much higher. And so we

00:11:05.260 typically, and, and you'd see this, you know, here in the Northern hemisphere, uh, during the winter,

00:11:11.400 people tend to experience more low mood. So that's one contribution. Another contribution is your

00:11:17.620 physical health. And so when you have a, if you have a fever, uh, and you're ill, your mood is much

00:11:25.320 lower. And again, that's to force you to slow down, uh, to, to not, uh, pursue a goals as vigorously

00:11:32.340 to allow your body to recover. But moods are also sensitive to the psychological state. So people,

00:11:37.840 uh, does the situation. So people, uh, experience a variety of shocks, whether it's, they, uh, get a

00:11:45.020 poor grade on a test or they get rebuffed by a lover or they have problems on the job in mood is

00:11:51.400 responsive to those situations as, as well, in part for the same reasons that, uh, there's some

00:11:57.420 situations like imagine you get fired from your job where this now you're in a predicament. You have

00:12:04.420 to figure out what to do next. You should not hastily, uh, you should not hastily proceed when

00:12:10.280 you've, uh, when you've experienced such a big loss. So there's a variety of, the variety of things

00:12:16.700 that can push people into a low mood. And unfortunately what's happening now is that our

00:12:21.980 perfectly good adaptation low mood is being set. It's being set off by a very large number of different

00:12:30.260 things at the same time, kind of creating the, the perfect storm for mood, which explains why so

00:12:36.240 many people are experiencing low mood and so many people are experiencing more severe depression for

00:12:42.260 long periods of time. Well, what are those things that are pushing more and more people into a low

00:12:47.000 mood? Um, well, so to stay on the, um, the example of, uh, of light. So, you know, we were, we,

00:12:55.500 we evolved in that context of the rotating earth and 24 hour cycle of light and dark with, uh, uh,

00:13:01.680 reliably feeling, uh, more energy and alertness at, at, uh, during the daytime than at night.

00:13:07.400 Humans, when they, uh, moved into, to, uh, villages and started farming in permanent settlements,

00:13:15.040 initially that was okay. But as they stayed in permanent settlements and became more urbanized,

00:13:21.940 people got less and less daylight. And in more recent times, um, this has really increased

00:13:31.140 dramatically so that even in very sunny parts of the world, there's one study in San Diego,

00:13:36.300 the average citizen is getting less than a half an hour of sunlight. And this is one of the most

00:13:41.200 sunny places in the United States a day. And that's kind of been replaced with, uh, light that people

00:13:47.600 are getting at night, which is a really poor substitute for daylight. So for example, people

00:13:52.320 are, uh, lying in bed, uh, and looking at their, uh, laptop screens and their iPhone screens, uh, or

00:14:00.240 their TVs. And this is, this is having a bunch of bad effects. So the, the light does not benefit

00:14:06.660 of the mood system, but it also tricks the body and it, it makes people, makes it harder for people

00:14:12.140 to get to sleep. And sleep is another thing which is very tied to mood. So people are having more and

00:14:18.360 more, um, problems with sleep in part because of these routines and because of the hectic lives

00:14:25.340 that people often lead are getting less and less sleep. And so I would say two of the things that I

00:14:31.220 would immediately, um, say have changed that are contributing to this depression epidemic are a

00:14:37.360 lack of light in sleep. Unfortunately, there are, there are a number of other things. Um, like I

00:14:42.260 said, it was, it's kind of the perfect storm. So there are also, there are also things going on in

00:14:46.600 the psychological environment that I think are very harmful, uh, to mood that I hope we have a chance

00:14:50.800 to talk about. Yeah. Like what are the, is it just the, um, our market economy? Is it, uh, just the

00:14:58.120 constant stress of information overload and what, what are some of those things? Well, some of the

00:15:02.400 things are, some of the things are actually quite paradoxical. Um, so, you know, again, the typical

00:15:08.040 view of depression is that it's about defects and things that the person is doing wrong. And, you

00:15:13.940 know, people talk about a, uh, defective brain or defective genes and so forth. But I think that the

00:15:20.920 reason that there is so much depression is really not so much because of things that humans don't do

00:15:25.840 well or individual people who, who, who are defective as things that humans are really, really good at.

00:15:31.960 So for example, humans are really, really good at setting goals and they're really good actually

00:15:37.420 at setting goals about very abstract things. For example, setting goals about their happiness.

00:15:43.900 And one thing that has changed dramatically in the last 30 years or so is that more and more people

00:15:50.340 have set these goals, uh, that I am going to be very happy. Now that may sound like a benign goal,

00:15:58.560 but at no time in human history have people, uh, so many people trying to deliver the state of kind

00:16:07.080 of reliable euphoria. Um, the mood system again is, it's designed to absolutely periodically deliver

00:16:15.320 a burst of pleasure when you've, you know, when, when your first date asks you to the prom or,

00:16:20.220 you know, you, uh, you, uh, you buy a groovy new car, uh, you, you do, you do get that shot of

00:16:26.140 pleasure, but people have this belief that they can feel happy all the time. And actually there

00:16:31.220 are books that you can buy, uh, that essentially say, uh, here are the three steps that you need

00:16:36.120 to take, uh, in order to feel happy all the time. And it sounds benign, but what's actually happening

00:16:41.580 is that many people are, uh, feeling okay or feeling somewhat, uh, down or depressed, but they're

00:16:48.580 wondering, why am I not happier? Is there something wrong with me? My, why am I not as happy as the

00:16:53.540 people that I see on Facebook, my friends, I see their perfect vacations and their perfect families,

00:16:59.340 um, that they compare themselves to these other people and they compare to their, their mood to

00:17:05.540 what they think they ought to feel. And they feel a lot worse and they start to feel very discouraged,

00:17:11.820 but it might be helpful to know that in reality, um, in no time in human history have ever people felt

00:17:19.440 happy all the time. It really is an illusion. Well, so what should the goal be? Uh, you know,

00:17:24.980 if you shouldn't focus on happiness, what should you focus on? Sure. I think that, um, it is important

00:17:32.220 to, to find things that are, that are meaningful in your life and as a consequence, uh, of pursuing

00:17:38.720 those, those goals. So for example, I'll, I'll bring my own case into this. So, uh, I, before I wrote

00:17:44.700 this book, this is actually, you know, more than 20 years ago, uh, I experienced a very severe episode

00:17:51.540 of depression that lasted a very long time and it took a very long time for me to figure out how to

00:17:57.320 kind of rebuild my life. And I, and I think that many of the reasons that I experienced depression

00:18:03.180 is that I did not have a lot of different activities, um, that I, you know, found meaningful

00:18:08.860 and, and, and, and I find the study of mood to be very valuable. And I also find the advocacy work

00:18:18.780 that I'm doing, uh, to help people, uh, who have depression be less isolating, that that also is

00:18:25.640 very meaningful. I started a family. I've now have more hobbies. When I, when I had to, uh, depression

00:18:31.620 initially, I really had put all of my eggs into one basket. I had this goal that I was going to become

00:18:37.920 a famous historian. And when that wasn't going well, everything kind of collapsed. So I guess I

00:18:43.360 would say, um, to kind of summarize my experience, and I think it would be relevant to, to a lot of

00:18:50.220 people who are listening to your show is having a diversity of things that are meaningful to you,

00:18:56.820 uh, that are important to you. Don't worry about whether you're ecstatically happy one day that you

00:19:02.420 will, you will, as a by-product of pursuing things that are meaningful, experience more wellbeing, um,

00:19:09.980 than if you simply have the goal, uh, to be happier, which is kind of like the goal. It's one

00:19:14.620 of these goals that, uh, the harder you run, the faster the treadmill goes. Um, it's, it's sort of an

00:19:20.260 impossible goal. So, uh, here's a question I have. Um, you know, you're talking about some of these

00:19:25.320 benefits of low mood, that it allows us time to reflect, uh, maybe informs us that maybe this is

00:19:31.760 a goal we should stop pursuing and maybe pursue something else. But when does, when does that low

00:19:37.540 mood shift to like severe depression where that, the costs outweigh the benefits? That's a great

00:19:44.020 question. And it's not a question that has a really easy answer. Um, again, um,

00:19:50.500 many things that humans are great at, um, and I think are admirable qualities, um, are important

00:20:00.960 and I would not speak against. So, you know, this idea that if you, if you're, if you're failing,

00:20:06.780 uh, if you're failing at an important goal in America, um, we're always told that no matter what,

00:20:13.220 you must persist, uh, in, in part because, you know, from a young age, kids are told that you can do

00:20:19.660 anything. And I, I don't want to be, you know, cast as, uh, as the gloomy person who says that you

00:20:27.600 should give up on goals, you know, at the slightest idea, that's low mood telling you, you know, to

00:20:32.120 disinvest and so forth. But at some point in many people persist, whether it's in a marriage, whether

00:20:38.880 it's in a career, um, whether it's in some other venture, fame to achieve great riches, they persist,

00:20:47.740 um, for a number of years in this, in spite of this escalating low mood, when, if they were able

00:20:55.140 to disengage and think about some other things that they could do with their time to kind of, again,

00:21:01.180 diversify their portfolio or maybe, um, develop a completely different goal completely that this,

00:21:09.460 this depression, which of course at the time was very destructive and very painful, may end up in

00:21:16.220 the long view being something that, uh, they're thankful for, that they, um, wouldn't trade, um,

00:21:23.880 because it, it helped them see, uh, other possibilities. But in the current, in our current

00:21:29.980 system, we only see depression as a sign of weakness. We see depression as, as a, you know, a broken brain

00:21:36.920 or cognitions that need to be changed. And so people are really unable to make any use of,

00:21:42.620 of these depressions, you know, kind of are, are, have been listening to Prozac, but not depression,

00:21:48.320 you know, to kind of put a point on it.

00:21:50.180 Okay. Well, so, I mean, you've kind of hit on this a little bit, you know, using this mood, uh,

00:21:56.120 evolutionary perspective, you know, someone who's struggling with depression, I mean, what's the best

00:22:02.120 way to approach it? I mean, I guess you don't, you don't, do you try to cure depression or is it

00:22:06.280 better to just try to manage it? You try to manage it. Absolutely. In the, the really, I think,

00:22:13.900 good news, you know, the, the book has a lot of, you know, alarming, um, facts about the direction

00:22:21.640 that we're headed in the, the difficulty of controlling depression, um, you know, as a public

00:22:26.820 health matter. So the, the incidence of depression is very high. It's concentrated in young people,

00:22:32.120 but there's also a lot of good news, especially when you take this mood science perspective,

00:22:36.660 because moods are responsive to so many different things. So I absolutely, if someone wanted to, to

00:22:44.080 try medications, which are the dominant approach to depression, I, I would say that's fine, but don't

00:22:51.000 limit yourself. Uh, you can also change your moods by changing your, uh, your, your thoughts. So, um,

00:22:59.580 people often have very negative thoughts during a depression. They're often very, uh, harsh and

00:23:04.580 self-accusatory kinds of thoughts. And there are, there are, there are both formal treatments in

00:23:10.320 books that people can read to try to get a little bit better control over their thoughts. People can

00:23:16.220 improve their mood by simply learning to tolerate the low moods better, which is another problem that,

00:23:21.380 um, happens when you're, when you're, um, fixated on feeling happy all the time that these low moods

00:23:27.820 become just intolerable. You can change your physical routines. So things that, you know,

00:23:33.280 I mean, I, I think many people know are benefit, uh, mood can even be beneficial to people who are

00:23:40.060 really struggling with, with more significant low mood, like exercise, uh, in getting more sunlight,

00:23:46.700 uh, you changing your social environment. So what happens in, in depression is that people tend to

00:23:52.760 withdraw and it's very understandable. You feel like hell, you don't want to talk to anyone. You

00:23:58.300 feel like you have nothing to say, but the extent to which you can schedule in some social interactions,

00:24:06.400 maybe, you know, you take it slow, but this is another way that, um, by changing your social

00:24:11.560 environment, you can, you can change your mood. And finally, and this might take more time, but I think

00:24:17.220 ultimately, you know, can be part of the solution for many people is really re-examining your goals.

00:24:24.700 Maybe you're, you're, you, uh, are committed to goals that really aren't working for you.

00:24:29.560 Some people, you know, aren't able to do this all on their own and that's okay. I mean, um, I would say

00:24:35.940 if you have the ability to, um, uh, to find a therapist to work with, uh, for any of these issues,

00:24:41.960 I think that can be very helpful. Um, so I guess the mood approach is very eclectic in the sense

00:24:48.560 that, um, it sees that there are all these different tools available and that people should

00:24:53.600 absolutely make use of them. Here's what do you tell the person who, cause I've had, I've known

00:24:59.580 people who have been in such a depressive state that they just have no motivation. And the thought

00:25:04.940 of even doing some of these things that you've talked about is just, uh, it just seems impossible.

00:25:10.020 So how do you bootstrap, right? To get to that point where you just, you know, you get out and

00:25:14.660 you change your social situation or you get out into the sun or, you know, to do those things that

00:25:19.720 can help your mood when you're just incapacitated. Yeah, that's a great point. And so room wasn't

00:25:25.440 built in a day. And I think also it's very important to tell people who are struggling with depression

00:25:31.120 that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with them, that they will, they will eventually get better

00:25:38.020 control over this mood state, but it may take some time. And, and I, and, and I really think it is

00:25:44.380 dangerous, um, to over promise. Um, but the, but telling people that, you know, from decades of

00:25:52.600 epidemiology that even the worst depression eventually will lift. And the goal would be,

00:25:57.500 what can we do to accelerate that lifting? What often happens that the folks that you're describing,

00:26:03.220 and it's understandable when you feel so bad, uh, that they've kind of, they've kind of lost morale.

00:26:09.080 They've lost a belief that things can change. They've lost a belief in themselves. And so before

00:26:15.360 people can really, uh, take the kinds of, some of the actions that I'm talking about, um, I think it's

00:26:22.400 important to, um, to check in with them about their morale and be understanding that, uh, that it may take

00:26:28.800 some time, but that they're going to prevail. I mean, there's no question that one way or the other,

00:26:34.680 you will outlast this depression, whether you can, um, whether you can hasten, uh, hasten its exit,

00:26:42.140 whether you can learn from it, that's, you know, that's more up for grabs. Um, but, you know, often

00:26:48.100 people have been, I think they've been kind of led down the garden path, maybe given false promises.

00:26:53.960 If they do this treatment in six weeks, they, they'll have, you know, they'll be, uh, totally

00:26:59.480 better. And then they're very disappointed and then they don't believe the next person, um, who

00:27:05.220 makes promises to them. So, um, you know, I think, I think, uh, the, the point about being very honest

00:27:10.800 with people is important. So yeah, what does recovery look like? Um, because I think some people

00:27:16.820 have this idea that, okay, if I do these things, if I, you know, do cognitive behavioral therapy,

00:27:21.940 or I take this medication, then, you know, one day I'll just wake up and I'll just be happy.

00:27:27.460 Um, is it, is it more gradual? Is it any, is it, you don't become happy? Is it just so you're not

00:27:32.720 depressed? I mean, what does that look like? Yeah. And I wish that there was more conversation

00:27:36.860 about exactly this. Cause I think this is really interesting and, and under discussed. So even what

00:27:43.180 is the goal of treatment? Um, you know, if you just talk to people in psychiatry, so, you know,

00:27:48.940 in mainstream psychiatry, would they treat with medications, the goal of treatment? Well,

00:27:53.740 it's to reduce your symptoms and that is great. Um, but people are often satisfied that they've

00:28:00.340 reduced your symptoms to, to a degree. Um, I think that we need to set the bar a bit higher. Um,

00:28:07.820 I think the goal ultimately has to be that the person is satisfied with their life, that they're no

00:28:13.400 longer, uh, they're not, no longer troubled by a depression that they can't manage. There may still

00:28:19.780 be, you know, there may still be ups and downs. There may still be some symptoms, but I think it's

00:28:25.920 really important to have an explicit conversation about what is, what is the goal actually? Because

00:28:31.020 I, I don't think that, you know, by just saying, well, we'd like to reduce your symptoms, that's,

00:28:36.560 I think, setting the bar kind of low. This, just saying that you have low symptoms could mean

00:28:41.660 that you're still having problems with your sleep, that you're still having, uh, concentration

00:28:46.020 difficulties or, and that you're still having trouble enjoying things. Um, I think it would

00:28:51.700 be great to think more broadly about, again, um, this more purposeful life that as a, you know,

00:28:57.180 as a consequence of that, that is a consequence of figuring out some better strategies to, to manage

00:29:04.240 your low mood. You're just not as dominated by it. I think that really is the goal to not be

00:29:09.700 dominated by your moods. It's, they're going to be a part of your life. You may not always

00:29:14.500 want the moods. You may not always like the moods that you're having, but moods are no longer your

00:29:20.760 enemy. Uh, moods are to a greater extent, your friend and something that you can use. Um, but,

00:29:27.500 you know, so often people might get better for a time and then the depression comes back and they

00:29:31.960 feel powerless. I mean, that can be even the worst, the worst thing about, uh, about a depression

00:29:37.560 is this uncertainty, um, and this feeling that having no, no power over your mood whatsoever.

00:29:44.780 I should have asked this earlier. Um, but I've read, are there differences between the way men and

00:29:51.040 women express depression or experience it, or is it pretty much the same? There are some differences.

00:29:57.560 Um, depression is a, is a bit more common in women. And so in some ways, um, uh, our kind of,

00:30:04.780 our template for depression is a female one. I think that's unfortunate, uh, because even if women, 0.99

00:30:11.420 if, even if depression is more common in women than it is in men, depression is so common in people

00:30:17.260 that it's incredibly common in men. And, and men may feel less comfortable talking about their

00:30:23.560 depression in that it, society has identified this as a female problem. And again, it's connected 1.00

00:30:29.840 to this notion of weakness and men of course are not allowed. Uh, they're not allowed by the dominant

00:30:35.180 culture to, uh, to express vulnerability or weakness. So I think it is much as difficult as

00:30:41.200 it is to be depressed for anyone. It's even more difficult for a man to struggle with depression,

00:30:47.480 uh, in that there, there is some greater, uh, barrier to letting other people know what's

00:30:54.320 happening. It can be hard to get help. That certainly was true in my own case. Um, ideas

00:31:00.160 about masculinity can be kind of a, it can be an impediment to getting help and getting depression

00:31:05.700 under control. Um, so you, in the book, and I thought it was really interesting, you talk about

00:31:12.000 possibly reframing or, you know, looking at your depression in a positive light and that it could

00:31:18.860 be instructive and helpful or even finding meaning in the depression. You know, how do you go about

00:31:24.420 doing that and how does that help someone? Well, it, you know, whether or not your depression is

00:31:32.840 helpful or, or, or, or harmful really is something that you're only going to, um, be able to determine

00:31:39.220 depression years later. Uh, it's not, it's not, it's not, I'm not suggesting that it's some eureka

00:31:46.760 moment, um, because their depression in mood generally is, it is connected to the, very often

00:31:54.620 to the overall trajectory of, of one's life. And, and whether or not you've learned all that you can

00:32:02.040 learn from the situation that you're in, um, takes a lot of time. So in my own case, um, I,

00:32:09.220 I experienced this depression, which I believe was related to, uh, I mentioned having all of my

00:32:17.560 career aspirations and all my eggs in one basket, but it was also related to a certain idea of who I

00:32:25.420 was, uh, and I saw myself as a, as a kind of a creature of the mind. And, and when I started

00:32:33.900 experiencing depression, my mental faculties really deteriorated, uh, and I was no, no longer

00:32:40.500 able to do that kind of work. And that was very threatening to me and made the depression that

00:32:45.100 much worse. So I learned, you know, in my case, I learned, uh, that many things, uh, many of, many of

00:32:53.980 the ideas that I had, uh, were wrong. Um, and I really learned, uh, that I could do something

00:33:01.340 different, um, and going into a new field. Uh, I think for other people, the lessons are going to

00:33:08.360 be very different. There's no one universal meaning of, of what depression is in part because

00:33:14.580 it can be provoked by so many different things. So, you know, depression can result from, uh, from,

00:33:22.400 from very physical things. So for example, if someone is, uh, starving and they, they, they did

00:33:30.360 research on this in the second world war, people experience very low mood as a secondary, you know,

00:33:36.740 as a secondary feature of not getting enough nutrition. So it, there's not a, there's not

00:33:42.600 always some grand psychological interpretation, but there often is, uh, it often does have meaning,

00:33:50.160 but you don't know immediately what it is. Well, Jonathan, where can people find out more

00:33:55.420 about your work? Well, in addition to reading, uh, reading my book, I regularly, uh, blog on,

00:34:01.420 uh, psychology today, uh, and a blog is called charting the depths and the Huffington post.

00:34:07.280 And if they're interested in, uh, any of the advocacy work that I'm doing, because I, you know,

00:34:12.400 talking with you as part of starting a broader conversation about depression, uh, and I'm very

00:34:17.920 interested in doing that. Uh, so, uh, have a group called come out of the dark. So if people,

00:34:23.140 if you were even to Google the term, come out of the dark and come out of the dark campaign,

00:34:27.420 you'll see a number of links that come up that are describing that activity. We have, uh, we have

00:34:33.060 an active Facebook presence. Uh, so the goal really is to expand our conversation about depression,

00:34:38.620 to get people to, to, uh, kind of challenge the dominant way of seeing depression as being about

00:34:45.140 defects and to create a society where we, uh, devote. Um, we understand depression better and

00:34:52.540 we're more tolerant of people who have struggled with the depression and we make use of the people

00:34:57.180 who have struggled in, have come out the other side. Fantastic. Well, Jonathan Rottenberg, thank

00:35:01.980 you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure. Oh, it's a delight to talk to you. Thank you very

00:35:05.600 much. Our guest today was Dr. Jonathan Rottenberg. He's the author of the book, The Depths,

00:35:10.260 The Evolutionary Origins of the Depression Empidemic. You can find that on amazon.com and other

00:35:15.160 bookstores. Also check out his Facebook page. Uh, just search for Jonathan Rottenberg. That's R-O-T-T-E-N-B-R-G 1.00

00:35:22.300 on Facebook, or you can go to facebook.com slash charting dot the dot depths. He posts a lot of

00:35:29.520 interesting articles, uh, latest research about depression. I think you'll find a lot of useful

00:35:33.720 information there. Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For

00:35:40.240 more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at

00:35:43.560 artofmanliness.com. And if you enjoy the show, you've gotten something out of it. I'd really

00:35:47.500 appreciate it if you would give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher, whatever it is you

00:35:51.740 use to listen to the podcast that helps us get the word out about the podcast. So I'd really

00:35:56.460 appreciate that. Also, if you can just recommend the podcast to a friend, uh, I'd appreciate

00:36:00.860 that as well. Anyways, until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.

00:36:10.240 Thank you.

00:36:12.240 Thank you.

00:36:13.240 Thank you.

The Art of Manliness - May 08, 2015

#113： The Evolutionary Origins of Depression With Jonathan Rottenberg

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