On this episode of the Art of Manliness podcast, Brett McKay talks with science writer Paul Rayburn about his new book, Do Fathers Matter? about the role that fathers play in their children's development.
00:15:03.460Not only does he have an effect, he has a huge effect.
00:15:05.940So if the father's not around during his partner's pregnancy, those kids, those infants have nearly four times the death rate of infants whose fathers were involved with the pregnancy.
00:15:18.120Um, fathers who are depressed during the pregnancy, again, before they've met the child, before the child was then born.
00:15:25.980If fathers are depressed during pregnancy, that increases the risk their children will suffer from depression, perhaps late in life.
00:15:33.580And the other thing is, there's a strange connection with father's hormones.
00:15:36.760So we know that mothers go through all kinds of hormonal changes to prepare them for pregnancy.
00:15:41.640When they are pregnant, to prepare them to carry the fetus and so forth.
00:15:46.200Um, it turns out fathers go through all kinds of hormonal changes too.
00:15:49.680They're, they experience a decline in testosterone.
00:15:52.880They experience a rise in a hormone called prolactin, which is associated with nursing in women.
00:15:58.480And I don't know any fathers who are nursing yet, but, uh, somehow they have this nursing hormone that's on the rise, uh, during pregnancy.
00:16:07.200So there's a huge connection between fathers and the developing fetus before it's even developed to the point where it can be born.
00:16:13.860So what could fathers do during this time to, I don't know, create an environment that's most adventations for his child and for the mother?
00:16:21.400Well, in, in a narrow sense, um, you know, be with a mother, uh, you know, be closely involved with the mother, spend time with the mother.
00:16:31.080Um, because that's what seems to produce these changes in the fathers and, uh, the better outlook for the fetus and the child that's, that's born.
00:16:41.100Uh, beyond that, you know, there are other good reasons to spend time with the mother because pregnancy is difficult.
00:16:46.180Um, because they want you to get up and give them a glass of water and there's a lot of things going on.
00:16:52.340I don't mean to trivialize it, but, uh, fathers can do a lot to support, uh, mothers, uh, which is a good thing.
00:16:59.680But, uh, and if they do that, then these slightly more mysterious things involving their children and their hormones, uh, will also take place too.
00:17:08.960So the question on the, this question about the statistic about infant mortality, does that even apply here in the West or is it across?
00:17:16.180Across culture, across, whether you're so, across socioeconomic?
00:17:23.900I don't know the figures for, you know, developing countries and so forth.
00:17:27.560Uh, but that, that is in the West, even with our good medical therapy.
00:17:31.540So, um, you know, and, and you would see evidence of this in poor communities compared to, uh, wealthier communities.
00:17:38.540So not, not that, you know, many poor families are very close families and so forth, but in, uh, families that are subject to economic disruption and so forth, that's where you may see more problems.
00:17:51.140And this is one of the reasons for that.
00:17:52.700So a lot of talk is given to women's age and how that can affect the health of their child, right?
00:18:01.640So the older a woman gets before she gets, when she gets pregnant, there are chances of having a child with Down syndrome increases, other health risk increase as well.
00:18:09.560Um, and there hasn't been a lot of attention to paid on the age of the father, but there's, I guess there's research coming out that the age of the father can have an effect on a child's health as well.
00:18:20.420How, how does that, what's that, what's the research saying on that?
00:18:23.300Yeah, this is another very surprising thing to me as I started to research the book.
00:18:27.840Um, so we know one of the things we know about genetics, maybe the first thing we know about genetics is that as women get older, they have an increased likelihood of having a child with Down syndrome.
00:18:37.380I think many, many men and women know about this now, think about it, worry about it if they're getting older and they haven't had children yet.
00:19:26.940Is it, uh, as the father gets older, something's going, I mean, is there more mutations in the sperm that's going on or why are there problems from with older?
00:20:11.860So it turns out that the problem is in something called spermatagonia.
00:20:16.440These are the structures that manufacture sperm.
00:20:19.920So what happens is those sperm, you know, sperm factories get older as men age.
00:20:27.180And the thinking is not, not necessarily there are more, well, that there are, you know, genetic anomalies or errors that are introduced as these factories get older and, you know, a little less accurate.
00:20:39.440And that that results in genetic changes in the sperm that increase the risk.
00:20:43.440So you, you had half the, half the, half of it, right.
00:20:46.680And if I left you alone, you probably would have got there.
00:20:50.280Well, I mean, so this raises a question.
00:20:51.880I mean, I mean, doctors often talk to women who are getting older and they're still planning to have a family to, okay, well, you need to think about the potential consequences of that.
00:21:01.420Are they doing that same sort of thing with fathers yet?
00:21:30.960But you could say the same thing about mothers.
00:21:33.100There's nothing you can do a lot about those risks either.
00:21:36.600And yet we tell mothers what their risks are.
00:21:39.580And, of course, one thing you can do, even, you know, with, with some of these things, there's an increased risk.
00:21:44.140Some parents might choose to terminate the pregnancy.
00:21:48.080Now, I don't think most people would recommend that, but that is one way to eliminate some of these risks.
00:21:55.020Many others wouldn't do that for all the reasons we know about.
00:21:57.960But, um, but my feeling is that men should know about this, whether they can do anything about it or not.
00:22:03.300And certainly younger men should know about it so they can plan their lives and maybe decide to have children earlier than they might have.
00:22:10.340But that, I think, is, is a scandal that men don't find out about this.
00:22:14.900The other reason that they don't, that's a little bit easier to understand, is that men don't have occasion to see genetic counselors until their wives are already pregnant or their partners are pregnant.
00:22:26.940So we don't, you know, women will see gynecologists and they get some advice about, uh, family planning or about, you know, having a family and so forth.
00:22:41.500So the genetic counselors who might be willing to, um, tell men about these risks don't have any interactions with the men.
00:22:51.060On the other hand, back to the negative side of it, you know, recently I was at a, at a wedding, actually, and somebody I met there was a genetic counselor.
00:22:58.380And I said, oh, you must know the risks associated with older properties.
00:23:01.900And she said, no, no, what risks are you talking about?
00:23:04.000So, you know, there's an education problem too.
00:23:07.600So, you know, I think, I think, you know, as I say, some of this is understandable.
00:23:11.420Some of this is a reflection of the fact that many people's coping fathers don't contribute as much to children, even in a genetic standpoint, you know.
00:24:08.320So children whose fathers play with them, read to them, go on school outings, help care for them and so forth, all of which we might think are the normal things that a father ought to do or would want to do.
00:24:19.540And so those kids have fewer behavioral problems in their early school years.
00:24:23.840They're less likely to become delinquent as adolescents.
00:24:27.260They're less likely to be involved in criminal activity.
00:24:33.760And another interesting thing with fathers and kids, just one thing, but it's an important thing, and it represents the kinds of things that happen, is that fathers make unique contributions to language development in kids.
00:24:50.340So you might think that, I mean, in many families, mothers still spend more time with kids than fathers do.
00:24:56.480So you might think that mothers have a bigger role in language development than fathers.
00:25:01.960So mothers engage in, you know, what's called motherese, that kind of language you recognize instantly.
00:27:19.620I still like doing that sort of thing.
00:27:22.520So, and, you know, it actually turns out that's not a trivial thing because that kind of play helps kids get used to unusual or unexpected social situations.
00:27:32.780So they've actually tracked kids over time and found that kids who engage in a lot of that kind of play with their fathers are more socially adept as kids and even more socially adept as adults, you know.
00:27:43.140So if you're the charming, suave, sophisticated conversationalist that I've heard about, you probably have a lot to thank your father for that.
00:27:52.600So the question is, are fathers necessary in the long run?
00:27:56.840I mean, that's sort of the question of your book.
00:27:58.680What conclusion did you come to after all the research you culled through?
00:28:02.280So, actually, an early draft of the book was called Our Fathers Necessary.
00:28:37.520You know, a lot of friends were single mothers, and I made sure they all understood that I didn't say they were doomed to raise horrible children because there was no father in the house.
00:28:52.060They're not necessary, but they absolutely matter if you can follow the distinction there.
00:28:57.980They're very important, and they contribute a lot.
00:29:00.820So out of all the research you did, is there one thing that fathers who are listening right now can do to have the biggest positive impact on their children?
00:29:09.280You know, I would say follow your instincts.