#122： Pirate Hunters With Robert Kurson
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Summary
Piracy has fascinated boys and men for centuries. In the first part of World War II, a German U-boat that no one in the world knew was sunk in New Jersey, and that there were 56 dead German sailors inside, was discovered by two blue-collar workers who went out to find a pirate ship from the golden age of piracy.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast so pirates have
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fascinated boys and men for centuries countless books have been written about them movies there's
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they got the pirates of the Caribbean at Disneyland people go kids dress up as pirates
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for Halloween people just there's something about pirates that people are drawn to but here's the
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thing I just found out that finding a pirate ship an actual pirate ship from the golden age of piracy
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which was the the 16th century is one of the hardest things to do it's harder than finding
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sunken treasure and that's because first there's not a lot of pirate ships out there and second just
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because of the nature of piracy they didn't put any identifying markers of the ship so it's hard to
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identify a ship as a pirate ship once you find it despite all this these two men they're treasure
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hunters they got a lead on a possible sunken pirate ship in the Caribbean and they risked pretty much
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everything to go find it money their livelihood their personal lives just to find this pirate ship and
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also in the process to discover and learn more about the pirate that captained this ship his name
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is Joseph Bannister one of the greatest pirates who ever lived but very few people know about
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anyways today on the show I have the author of a book that just came out about the the finding of
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this pirate ship his name is Robert Curson his book is pirate hunters treasure obsession in the search
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for a legendary pirate ship super good read it's entertaining it's fast-paced it's action-packed full of
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suspense but you're also going to learn a lot in the process I learned a lot about pirates in the
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process anyways on the show Robert and I discuss why pirates are so alluring why we're drawn to them
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we're going to learn more about Robert Bannister and why he is one of the greatest pirates to ever
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live and we're going to learn about what we can learn from these two treasure hunters who went out
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to find this pirate ship from the golden age of piracy great discussion I think you're gonna like it so
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let's do this Robert Curson welcome to the show thanks so much Brett privileged to be with you
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so your new book pirate hunters it's a fantastic fantastic book but before we get into it this isn't
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your first book about underwater treasure seekers how did you get introduced to this world of
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underwater sleuths because I really didn't know it existed until I read your books I didn't either
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Brett and it was a really kind of dumb luck for me I'm realizing as I get older how much luck
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plays in life what an important part it plays and about 10 years ago I got a call from a friend who
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said she had a remarkable story to tell me about and it was about these two everyday guys blue collar
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workers who on weekends went scuba diving for fun off the coast of New Jersey and that one day they had
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found a World War II German U-boat that no one in the world knew was sunk in New Jersey and that there
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were 56 dead German sailors inside and my first reaction was I don't know anything about underwater
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exploration I'm not a scuba diver I don't even swim I couldn't be less interested but something was
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kind of pinging in my instinct and so I followed it up and that turned into my first book Shadow Divers
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and yeah I mean that's amazing that's amazing that there was a U-boat off the coast of New Jersey
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they came here with impunity in the first part of World War II they got so close to our shores
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that sometimes they would beach themselves by accident and guys would climb out and push the
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U-boat back in the water they would routinely come so near to New York that they would put their radio
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antennas up and tune in the jazz radio stations that were forbidden to them back home and they would
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watch couples strolling on dates I mean they came here and did whatever they wanted for the first part of
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the war then um allied ingenuity and technology changed everything and the hunters as they say
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became the hunted soon enough yeah yeah I mean I know something I didn't know that the U-boats got this
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close um so okay let's talk about these guys these blue collar guys who are just doing this for fun
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um these guys and you you highlight I think one of them makes an appearance in this book um but these
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guys are larger than life I mean these guys they they come from like the hard scrabble but they're just
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I don't know they've got this grit about them that's just admirable can you tell us about the
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guys who went after this pirate ship uh that was underwater yeah absolutely so in my new book pirate
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hunters you've got these two guys John Chatterton and John Matera who have very very interesting lives
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before they ever think anything about going to look for shipwrecks um John Chatterton uh grew up in New
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York but uh never really found himself until he got to Vietnam he volunteered uh to be a medic in
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Vietnam and he really became a standout very unusual medic he walked point with the other guys in in
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Vietnam and as a medic that was very rare he he was a very heroic guy but it wasn't until he kind of
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discovered scuba diving after Vietnam that he really found himself uh but it wasn't just scuba diving the
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way we think of it you know looking at uh starfish and seahorses and coral um he was going deep dark
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and dangerous uh for shipwrecks some of the most deadly shipwrecks in the world and soon enough he
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was on ships like the Andrea Doria and others that were known for killing people routinely and he became
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one of the greatest divers in the world people paid him the ultimate compliment by saying uh when you die
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no one's going to find your body and in that world that rare world of deep water shipwreck diving that was
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the ultimate compliment so he um even as he became uh an underwater construction worker in and around
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New York he kind of distinguished himself as one of the great shipwreck divers in the world this other
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guy John Matera might have had an even more unusual background he grew up in Staten Island and by the
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time he was 14 or 15 was owning nightclubs and doing loan sharking and really um kind of rising up
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around the people who formed the Gambino crime family and there came a time when he was about 20
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years old where he might have even made a move with a friend of his toward taking over the Gambino crime
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family the guy was so interesting that even though all this was going on and he was owning nightclubs
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too young for him you know that he was not even legally allowed to enter and making hundreds of
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thousands of dollars of loans he still was consumed with history and with the idea of historic shipwrecks
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so his friends even while they were wild and getting into all kinds of violence and trouble
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you could find him in the library more likely than anywhere else just at the point where he was about
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to take the wrong turn in life and really make a move into organized crime he he swerved and uh he
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became a beat cop um the really the unlikeliest possible result for a guy like this but he understood
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what um made men tick on the streets and it made him a really good beat cop and from there he just took
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it into a security job and then to uh owning a a security business where he became one of the
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highest paid personal bodyguards in the world at that point he's middle-aged and kind of set and
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that's where chatterton is middle-aged and set for life when they get a chance to do something almost no
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one in the world has ever done and that is to go find a golden age pirate ship a pirate ship from the
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17th century the rarest thing you could find in the world underwater yeah so these guys actually
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they were working together they were going to go after a treasure ship like that had possible spanish
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gold on it um and then they got yeah they had this opportunity from another treasure hunter bowden i
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believe was yeah bowden bowden um said there's a pirate ship and they gave it up they gave up like
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possibly making millions and millions of dollars to go for this pirate ship i mean it was called the
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golden fleece what what is why are pirate sunken pirate ships so rare and why are they so hard to
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find and why would they give up millions of dollars to go look for a pirate ship we're not even talking
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millions brett we're talking hundreds of millions they planned for two years to go after a spanish galleon
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uh called the san miguel which they believed would have dwarfed any other treasure ship ever found
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they trained for it they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on the cutting edge equipment
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everything in their life was devoted to going to find this treasure ship and basically on the eve of
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going to set out for the ship which they believe they knew the location of they're offered a chance
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by an elderly treasure hunter to do something impossible and that's to go find a treasure ship now why are
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they so rare at this point when this offer is made in 2007 only one pirate ship has ever been
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discovered and positively identified in the world a pirate ship called the widda the reason they're so
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so very difficult to find is because a there were not very many of them to begin with probably uh not
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much more than a thousand of them sailing collectively but even then think about what a pirate ship is
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about first and foremost it's about invisibility it's about stealth they want to be invisible to
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governments and to uh lawmakers they don't broadcast their intentions they don't file reports about
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where they're going or where they intend to go and when they disappear either they sink or they're sold
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or anything else they break up in a storm no government comes looking for them they don't exist
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officially and that's exactly the way they want it but think about also what happens after a pirate ship
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sinks let's say um a scuba diver or a swimmer or some or somebody on a ship comes across the wreckage
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of a pirate ship then they see this is a wrecked ship how are they going to know it was a pirate ship
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these pirate ships did not carry bells engraved with their name they didn't want their name known
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to anybody so all you're really looking at even if you're lucky enough to stumble across one is just
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a pile of wood the trick really is to identify it and prove it's a pirate ship that is the single
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most difficult thing a shipwreck hunter could possibly do in all the world so that's why it was
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so appealing like so so appealing to them and think about it a pirate and what could be more
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to you know to speak to your inner little boy than the chance to find a pirate ship and in fact this
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guy told him i can tell you exactly where the pirate ship is he just didn't have the equipment
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or the technical know-how to go get it but that's exactly what chatterton matera had been spending the
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last two years of their lives perfecting that technical know-how so they thought easy we're
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going to go out and get this then we'll go get our treasure ship it didn't turn out to be that easy
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um let's talk about the okay the pirate all right so this ship so the other characters in the story and
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i love how you in the book you weave in the story of matera and chatterton trying to find the pirate
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ship but then you also weave in the story of the pirate who captained the ship the golden fleece his
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name was joseph banister and i'll admit uh this is the first time i ever heard of joseph banister
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uh but that guy he's pretty cool like this is like he's like a lot cooler than the other other pirates
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i've heard about can you tell us about a little bit about joseph banister and how he became a pirate
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this is one of the great unknown stories to history and when chatterton and matera heard it for the
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first time they could hardly believe what they were listening to joseph banister for years and
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years was an english noble gentleman he was the captain of a ship called the golden fleece which
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belonged to wealthy ship owners and he captained the ship between the trade routes of london and port
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royal jamaica port royal at that time was known as the wickedest city on earth and it was a pirate
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stronghold but banister had nothing to do with pirates for years and years what he did was he
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transported hides and sugar and indigo dyes between london and port royal and made a very good living
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for himself he was very well respected a real noble gentleman and then for one day for reasons nobody
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could really divine he stole his own ship the golden fleece and turned pirate but he didn't just do it
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himself he recruited a top flight pirate crew a fearsome band of characters and went on a pirating rampage
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and when chatterton and matera heard these first details about the guy that he was headed for a
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soft landing that he was in middle age that he had his life made but that he took this turn this sudden
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swerve it spoke to them on a very personal level because in lots of ways that's what was going on
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with them at that very moment yes i mean and let's go back like why i love how the yeah they connected
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with banister in that way but i just find it like why what i think matera sort of speculates why
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banister went pirate he had all this going for him but he decided to go pirate and i think matera came
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to the conclusion that it was the sort of love of democracy i think you know these guys when they
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discovered early on that the pirate ship was not where all of you know three centuries of history
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believed it was and that they were going to have to do something way outside the box to try to find
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unfindable ship they determined that they're going to have to get into the head and even more
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importantly into the heart of this pirate banister in order to think like him and feel like him and
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find their way to him and so matera who's really a historian since he's a little boy starts to do all
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kinds of original research all over the world and he starts to learn not just about pirates of the golden
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age which was about from 1650 to 1720 but he starts to understand what was going on on pirate ships
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these were the first democracies these are democracies um that took hold a century before
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they came to america and at that point matera starts to make a connection with banister the person
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he starts to feel that this guy could not have made this leap would not have made this leap
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other for anything other than the feeling of being completely free and being with a group of of people
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who went in the way they decided free from any government free from any rules or laws everything
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on the pirate ship was a democracy everybody's vote carried the same weight so banister had the same
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vote as the lowliest deckhand and the more matera and chatterton learned about this the more they
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believed they could trace banister's heart to the location of his ship i i thought it was fascinating
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the whole section you had about the pirate code of honor basically because i didn't know how the how
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pirates worked um you're right it was they voted on everything like they voted on where they're
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going to go uh the only time the captain i guess i was actually captain was in during battle is that
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correct that's exactly right yeah and and then also there was like they had sort of like um i guess
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you would say laws about how pirates are paid and like the captain couldn't be paid that much more
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than the lowest deckhand absolutely the the pirate very very rarely got more than two or three times
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what the lowest guy on board got and they voted on everything so if the pirate wanted to go pursue
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a certain ship in a certain location and his crew felt differently then the pirate captain was overruled
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and if he didn't like it at that point they could throw him off or maroon him or worse even if the
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pirate captain himself owned his own ship like banister so the fact that banister stayed in charge of his
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ship for several years as a pirate captain that intrigued chatterton and matera even more they knew that
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this guy had commanded incredible respect but you're right everything they did a board was voted on
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they had a constitution of rules and laws and bylaws that would have spun your head it was so fair and so
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egalitarian you could not have believed it yeah and i mean the what i loved about this idea of banister
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being sort of a lover of democracy i mean he he battled with i mean is that what is that why we find
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pirates so intriguing is this in like especially like folk outlaws they would be those outlaws that
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become heroes they sort of kind of stick it to the man and sort of exert their autonomy and is that why
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we love to read stories about pirates i think that's exactly why every one of us feels bound in some way
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or another as we make our way through the days of our lives these guys said no matter what the risk
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it's worth it to just step off the dock and set sail really into freedom i mean these guys were
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looking at the gallows if they got caught especially when banister did it where they were really really
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closing in on the pirates but the idea of stepping away and saying we were bound by no laws and no
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restrictions other than the those that we make for ourselves i think that's an absolutely timeless
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thing i think it would have spoke spoken to the cavemen that idea of of freedom and that's really
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uh what they believe in the end drove banister to take the massive risks he took by turning pirate
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so what's the process of finding finding a ship that doesn't have any identifiable markers on it
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that sunk 300 years ago um you you mentioned there's some technology involved but it seems like there's
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there's stuff that happens on shore that has more of an influence on finding the ship
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that's completely right in a certain way by undertaking this search for the pirate ship
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chatterton matera were doing something insane because it wasn't going to be enough to them to
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find the pirate ship they had to identify it and the odds of doing that are almost zero for the
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reasons we discussed nonetheless the chance to do it was so rare and so unusual they they felt compelled
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to do it now how they were going to identify it i think they they both suspected would have to be
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done through history and on land that no matter how good they were at finding the physical remains of
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the ship they were going to have to do some first-rate detective work that had never been done
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in history before in order to prove that that wreck if they were lucky enough to find it was indeed the
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golden fleece neither of them had any idea how they were going to do that only that by giving
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being given this rare chance at this one point in their lives they couldn't say no and they had to
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try and what amazed me is like they would travel all over the world to different libraries just to
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do this this historical research i mean that i can't imagine how much money they sunk into this
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project i mean it had to have been astronomical it was and you got to remember that this is after
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they sunk an astronomical amount into gearing up for their treasure hunt so really you know this was
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money that they had expected to spend finding a treasure they thought could be worth half a billion
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dollars or more but they came to believe that they could do this in a reasonable amount of time
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however things were not nearly that simple and when when things got to get complicated it was uh
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worth it to them even if they had to spend their last dime in order to go find this because as john
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matera told me the first time i ever talked to him about this story treasure gets found all the time
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but a pirate ship i mean there's nothing like it so they in a certain way because they were
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explorers at heart uh they had no choice in the matter well i don't want to talk about you know
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any spoilers about what happens to banister and how why the sip shunk and how the the guys finally
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found the book or find the boat because i want people to read the book because you just do a great
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job uh telling the story but what are these guys doing now what are chatterton and matera doing
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now are they still searching for ships or they sort of retired and got moved on in life no that's
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the whole crux of the matter to them they cannot retire and um the idea you know when they they both
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had made good in their lives professionally and got to middle age you know into their uh early 50s
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for matera and late 50s for chatterton and they were advised by very reasonable people you know
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take your money um i think one of them was uh urged to buy a dunkin donut franchise and the other to buy
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a laundromat or manage an apartment building and and i mean this very literally brett i think both of
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them would have rather died than do that uh the idea of living a life like that was um unacceptable to
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them the question was what do you do and uh so the chance to go find a pirate ship or a treasure ship
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that spoke to them the question then becomes after you do something like that what do you do
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next and that's the question they're trying to answer now they're out in search of another great
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shipwreck and i think they're going to be asking that question as long as they live i think all of
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us i mean i think all of us are sort of like that you accomplish one big project and then you're just
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trying to figure out what are you going to do next i think so and that's a scary prospect if you
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don't have the answer in front of you at the moment but the alternative which is doing something
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you know reasonable and predictable for the rest of your life is worse and that's what inspires me
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about writing about guys like this that they're not ready to hang it up so you mentioned you kind
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of mentioned this in the book throughout that the days of treasure hunting underwater treasure hunting
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seem to be coming to an end i guess because countries are passing laws that make it illegal
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uh for just sort of people to go out on their own and search for sunken treasure is this a profession
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that's on the verge of extinction yes it's virtually extinct there are a handful of countries that still
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allow it and you know there are arguments to be made by archaeologists and academics um and they're
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reasonable sounding arguments which go something like you can't allow these treasure hunters to go
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exploring these ships because they're not going to treat the artifacts in the way that a museum might or a
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curator might they're just in it for the money um they don't care about the history and so they make
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a very good case against private treasure hunters but i can tell you from being around these guys now
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for 10 years or more that no one takes better care of shipwrecks partly because um it's in their
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financial interest to do this you know you don't want to storm through a shipwreck and ruin things
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um but partly because uh no one else is interested in the history in the way these guys are i have yet to
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meet a treasure hunter or a shipwreck explorer who wasn't first and foremost interested in history
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so uh that that's a huge benefit that a lot of people don't realize but beyond that um shipwreck
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and treasure hunting is extremely expensive i mean it'll wipe out rich guys all the time and so
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universities and archaeologists and scientists don't have the money to go hunt these ships it's only
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these treasure hunters and the investors they can get behind them who are even able to go so if the
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the private guys don't go the guys with that fire burning inside them um you're not going to get guys
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to go look for these ships and they're going to remain lost forever yeah and i think you definitely
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at the you have to have a sort of a cowboy mentality you have to have a pirate mentality right a sort of a
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love of danger to do what these guys are doing because some of these wrecks are places that you know
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it's hard to get to and i don't know if you would attract that sort of that sort of diver that sort
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of sort of person in academia i i think it i think it might be um the antithesis of the academic
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mindset you have to be a pirate to go do this and also to believe that you have the right to take
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something from the sea i mean that's not something that would come to me naturally but you have to
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believe in yourself in that way and that if you expend the money and especially risk your lives
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because guys die doing this uh that you are um deserving of compensation and that compensation
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is in the form of treasure or at least in the form of uh finding the shipwreck itself during the
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process of writing this book did you have a chance to do any i mean i guess there's like wrecks where
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they take tours and they can show consumers travelers a shipwreck have you had the chance to do that
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yeah you know when when i was writing my first book shadow divers about the u-boat
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this was an almost unreachable shipwreck especially back then it was sunk in 230 feet of very cold dark
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water 60 miles off the coast of point pleasant new jersey so just the boat ride out there was a
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violent experience and people died on that wreck very quickly after it was discovered but when you
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go look in tropical waters for a pirate ship or a treasure ship often they're sunk in 10 or 20 feet of
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water and once you find them you can sometimes look from the boat right down onto the wreck so
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those are the wrecks that are much easier for a lay person like me to see and to go experience
00:24:40.260
cool um so you mentioned a little bit um that you one of the things you love about writing this book is
00:24:47.040
seeing these guys how you know they're just they're not willing to hang it up right they're they
00:24:51.480
just want to keep going and find that next that next treasure the next adventure um anything else
00:24:57.400
did you learn that you learned about life being a man in the process of researching and writing
00:25:02.740
this book i think the thing that stays with me the most is that the truly happy people i've come
00:25:10.660
across the truly uh contented men always have a risk taken in their background i don't know that i've
00:25:18.040
met any guy who's um really at peace with himself who doesn't have a risk in his background
00:25:24.540
and uh that's not to say that you should go around taking indiscriminate risks uh until you
00:25:30.940
hit upon something but that um these guys seem to accept intuitively you know on a dna level that a
00:25:37.240
risk at some point well considered is absolutely required uh really in the same way banister did it
00:25:43.340
that you know you could have a an easy soft landing ahead of you uh you can have it all laid out but
00:25:48.640
that's not the way to really get there so take more risks it's take more risks and understand that
00:25:54.680
uh there's really no way around it well robert where can people find out more about your book
00:25:59.760
oh you can go to my website it's just robert uh kurson k-u-r-s-o-n dot com there's uh all the
00:26:07.560
information's there and uh it should be able to tell you everything fantastic well robert kurson
00:26:12.420
this is a fantastic book and it just an amazing story you did a great job uh telling it so thank
00:26:18.240
you so much for your time it's been a pleasure right it's been a pleasure for me i'm a huge fan
00:26:21.700
of yours so this was a real privilege for me thank you thank you our guest is robert kurson he is the
00:26:26.200
author of the book pirate hunters treasure obsession and the search for a legendary pirate ship you can
00:26:31.100
find that on amazon.com go out and get it it's a fantastic summertime read you won't regret it also
00:26:36.740
you find out more information about the book and about the pirate ship with the golden fleece at robert
00:26:41.720
kurson kurson with the k dot com well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast
00:26:50.820
for more manly tips and advice make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com
00:26:55.540
and if you enjoy the podcast and you're getting feel like you're getting something out of it i'd
00:26:58.960
really appreciate it if you go to itunes or stitcher and give us a review that will help us
00:27:03.200
get the word out about the podcast other people uh so i'd really appreciate that and you're probably
00:27:08.060
noticing some different outro music this is actually music written by an art of manliness
00:27:12.520
reader and podcast listener jamie clark i want to thank jamie for doing this for us
00:27:17.440
a nice little little tune to go on out anyways until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay