The Art of Manliness - #122： Pirate Hunters With Robert Kurson

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast so pirates have

00:00:19.560 fascinated boys and men for centuries countless books have been written about them movies there's

00:00:25.020 they got the pirates of the Caribbean at Disneyland people go kids dress up as pirates

00:00:29.700 for Halloween people just there's something about pirates that people are drawn to but here's the

00:00:35.060 thing I just found out that finding a pirate ship an actual pirate ship from the golden age of piracy

00:00:41.260 which was the the 16th century is one of the hardest things to do it's harder than finding

00:00:46.740 sunken treasure and that's because first there's not a lot of pirate ships out there and second just

00:00:51.580 because of the nature of piracy they didn't put any identifying markers of the ship so it's hard to

00:00:55.940 identify a ship as a pirate ship once you find it despite all this these two men they're treasure

00:01:01.520 hunters they got a lead on a possible sunken pirate ship in the Caribbean and they risked pretty much

00:01:07.720 everything to go find it money their livelihood their personal lives just to find this pirate ship and

00:01:14.560 also in the process to discover and learn more about the pirate that captained this ship his name

00:01:20.400 is Joseph Bannister one of the greatest pirates who ever lived but very few people know about

00:01:25.360 anyways today on the show I have the author of a book that just came out about the the finding of

00:01:30.380 this pirate ship his name is Robert Curson his book is pirate hunters treasure obsession in the search

00:01:35.020 for a legendary pirate ship super good read it's entertaining it's fast-paced it's action-packed full of

00:01:41.400 suspense but you're also going to learn a lot in the process I learned a lot about pirates in the

00:01:44.760 process anyways on the show Robert and I discuss why pirates are so alluring why we're drawn to them

00:01:51.600 we're going to learn more about Robert Bannister and why he is one of the greatest pirates to ever

00:01:56.300 live and we're going to learn about what we can learn from these two treasure hunters who went out

00:02:02.260 to find this pirate ship from the golden age of piracy great discussion I think you're gonna like it so

00:02:08.520 let's do this Robert Curson welcome to the show thanks so much Brett privileged to be with you

00:02:20.680 so your new book pirate hunters it's a fantastic fantastic book but before we get into it this isn't

00:02:26.760 your first book about underwater treasure seekers how did you get introduced to this world of

00:02:32.800 underwater sleuths because I really didn't know it existed until I read your books I didn't either

00:02:38.140 Brett and it was a really kind of dumb luck for me I'm realizing as I get older how much luck

00:02:43.020 plays in life what an important part it plays and about 10 years ago I got a call from a friend who

00:02:49.460 said she had a remarkable story to tell me about and it was about these two everyday guys blue collar

00:02:54.560 workers who on weekends went scuba diving for fun off the coast of New Jersey and that one day they had

00:03:01.460 found a World War II German U-boat that no one in the world knew was sunk in New Jersey and that there

00:03:06.280 were 56 dead German sailors inside and my first reaction was I don't know anything about underwater

00:03:12.580 exploration I'm not a scuba diver I don't even swim I couldn't be less interested but something was

00:03:18.280 kind of pinging in my instinct and so I followed it up and that turned into my first book Shadow Divers

00:03:23.300 and yeah I mean that's amazing that's amazing that there was a U-boat off the coast of New Jersey

00:03:29.840 they came here with impunity in the first part of World War II they got so close to our shores 0.98

00:03:36.040 that sometimes they would beach themselves by accident and guys would climb out and push the

00:03:41.020 U-boat back in the water they would routinely come so near to New York that they would put their radio

00:03:46.280 antennas up and tune in the jazz radio stations that were forbidden to them back home and they would

00:03:51.420 watch couples strolling on dates I mean they came here and did whatever they wanted for the first part of

00:03:56.760 the war then um allied ingenuity and technology changed everything and the hunters as they say

00:04:02.360 became the hunted soon enough yeah yeah I mean I know something I didn't know that the U-boats got this

00:04:06.860 close um so okay let's talk about these guys these blue collar guys who are just doing this for fun

00:04:12.540 um these guys and you you highlight I think one of them makes an appearance in this book um but these

00:04:20.420 guys are larger than life I mean these guys they they come from like the hard scrabble but they're just

00:04:26.520 I don't know they've got this grit about them that's just admirable can you tell us about the

00:04:31.740 guys who went after this pirate ship uh that was underwater yeah absolutely so in my new book pirate

00:04:38.120 hunters you've got these two guys John Chatterton and John Matera who have very very interesting lives

00:04:44.000 before they ever think anything about going to look for shipwrecks um John Chatterton uh grew up in New

00:04:49.960 York but uh never really found himself until he got to Vietnam he volunteered uh to be a medic in

00:04:57.220 Vietnam and he really became a standout very unusual medic he walked point with the other guys in in

00:05:03.600 Vietnam and as a medic that was very rare he he was a very heroic guy but it wasn't until he kind of

00:05:09.980 discovered scuba diving after Vietnam that he really found himself uh but it wasn't just scuba diving the

00:05:15.740 way we think of it you know looking at uh starfish and seahorses and coral um he was going deep dark

00:05:21.780 and dangerous uh for shipwrecks some of the most deadly shipwrecks in the world and soon enough he

00:05:27.840 was on ships like the Andrea Doria and others that were known for killing people routinely and he became

00:05:34.220 one of the greatest divers in the world people paid him the ultimate compliment by saying uh when you die

00:05:39.800 no one's going to find your body and in that world that rare world of deep water shipwreck diving that was

00:05:44.740 the ultimate compliment so he um even as he became uh an underwater construction worker in and around

00:05:51.500 New York he kind of distinguished himself as one of the great shipwreck divers in the world this other

00:05:57.380 guy John Matera might have had an even more unusual background he grew up in Staten Island and by the

00:06:04.180 time he was 14 or 15 was owning nightclubs and doing loan sharking and really um kind of rising up

00:06:12.020 around the people who formed the Gambino crime family and there came a time when he was about 20 0.97

00:06:18.560 years old where he might have even made a move with a friend of his toward taking over the Gambino crime 1.00

00:06:24.380 family the guy was so interesting that even though all this was going on and he was owning nightclubs

00:06:29.700 too young for him you know that he was not even legally allowed to enter and making hundreds of

00:06:34.220 thousands of dollars of loans he still was consumed with history and with the idea of historic shipwrecks

00:06:39.700 so his friends even while they were wild and getting into all kinds of violence and trouble

00:06:43.580 you could find him in the library more likely than anywhere else just at the point where he was about

00:06:49.400 to take the wrong turn in life and really make a move into organized crime he he swerved and uh he

00:06:56.420 became a beat cop um the really the unlikeliest possible result for a guy like this but he understood

00:07:03.280 what um made men tick on the streets and it made him a really good beat cop and from there he just took

00:07:08.800 it into a security job and then to uh owning a a security business where he became one of the

00:07:14.020 highest paid personal bodyguards in the world at that point he's middle-aged and kind of set and

00:07:21.060 that's where chatterton is middle-aged and set for life when they get a chance to do something almost no

00:07:27.200 one in the world has ever done and that is to go find a golden age pirate ship a pirate ship from the

00:07:33.960 17th century the rarest thing you could find in the world underwater yeah so these guys actually

00:07:38.960 they were working together they were going to go after a treasure ship like that had possible spanish

00:07:44.320 gold on it um and then they got yeah they had this opportunity from another treasure hunter bowden i

00:07:50.140 believe was yeah bowden bowden um said there's a pirate ship and they gave it up they gave up like

00:07:56.260 possibly making millions and millions of dollars to go for this pirate ship i mean it was called the

00:08:01.720 golden fleece what what is why are pirate sunken pirate ships so rare and why are they so hard to

00:08:08.020 find and why would they give up millions of dollars to go look for a pirate ship we're not even talking

00:08:12.180 millions brett we're talking hundreds of millions they planned for two years to go after a spanish galleon

00:08:17.760 uh called the san miguel which they believed would have dwarfed any other treasure ship ever found

00:08:24.700 they trained for it they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on the cutting edge equipment

00:08:29.620 everything in their life was devoted to going to find this treasure ship and basically on the eve of

00:08:35.040 going to set out for the ship which they believe they knew the location of they're offered a chance

00:08:40.440 by an elderly treasure hunter to do something impossible and that's to go find a treasure ship now why are

00:08:46.380 they so rare at this point when this offer is made in 2007 only one pirate ship has ever been

00:08:53.840 discovered and positively identified in the world a pirate ship called the widda the reason they're so

00:09:00.420 so very difficult to find is because a there were not very many of them to begin with probably uh not

00:09:07.200 much more than a thousand of them sailing collectively but even then think about what a pirate ship is

00:09:12.960 about first and foremost it's about invisibility it's about stealth they want to be invisible to

00:09:19.880 governments and to uh lawmakers they don't broadcast their intentions they don't file reports about

00:09:27.260 where they're going or where they intend to go and when they disappear either they sink or they're sold

00:09:32.240 or anything else they break up in a storm no government comes looking for them they don't exist

00:09:37.320 officially and that's exactly the way they want it but think about also what happens after a pirate ship

00:09:42.860 sinks let's say um a scuba diver or a swimmer or some or somebody on a ship comes across the wreckage

00:09:51.280 of a pirate ship then they see this is a wrecked ship how are they going to know it was a pirate ship

00:09:56.660 these pirate ships did not carry bells engraved with their name they didn't want their name known

00:10:01.800 to anybody so all you're really looking at even if you're lucky enough to stumble across one is just

00:10:07.680 a pile of wood the trick really is to identify it and prove it's a pirate ship that is the single

00:10:13.320 most difficult thing a shipwreck hunter could possibly do in all the world so that's why it was

00:10:18.160 so appealing like so so appealing to them and think about it a pirate and what could be more

00:10:24.160 to you know to speak to your inner little boy than the chance to find a pirate ship and in fact this

00:10:30.220 guy told him i can tell you exactly where the pirate ship is he just didn't have the equipment

00:10:36.160 or the technical know-how to go get it but that's exactly what chatterton matera had been spending the

00:10:41.860 last two years of their lives perfecting that technical know-how so they thought easy we're

00:10:46.900 going to go out and get this then we'll go get our treasure ship it didn't turn out to be that easy

00:10:51.200 um let's talk about the okay the pirate all right so this ship so the other characters in the story and

00:10:56.640 i love how you in the book you weave in the story of matera and chatterton trying to find the pirate

00:11:01.480 ship but then you also weave in the story of the pirate who captained the ship the golden fleece his

00:11:07.060 name was joseph banister and i'll admit uh this is the first time i ever heard of joseph banister

00:11:12.040 uh but that guy he's pretty cool like this is like he's like a lot cooler than the other other pirates

00:11:17.640 i've heard about can you tell us about a little bit about joseph banister and how he became a pirate

00:11:23.740 this is one of the great unknown stories to history and when chatterton and matera heard it for the

00:11:30.080 first time they could hardly believe what they were listening to joseph banister for years and

00:11:35.580 years was an english noble gentleman he was the captain of a ship called the golden fleece which

00:11:42.000 belonged to wealthy ship owners and he captained the ship between the trade routes of london and port

00:11:48.560 royal jamaica port royal at that time was known as the wickedest city on earth and it was a pirate

00:11:54.340 stronghold but banister had nothing to do with pirates for years and years what he did was he

00:11:59.500 transported hides and sugar and indigo dyes between london and port royal and made a very good living

00:12:07.940 for himself he was very well respected a real noble gentleman and then for one day for reasons nobody

00:12:14.760 could really divine he stole his own ship the golden fleece and turned pirate but he didn't just do it

00:12:21.160 himself he recruited a top flight pirate crew a fearsome band of characters and went on a pirating rampage

00:12:28.840 and when chatterton and matera heard these first details about the guy that he was headed for a

00:12:33.920 soft landing that he was in middle age that he had his life made but that he took this turn this sudden

00:12:40.820 swerve it spoke to them on a very personal level because in lots of ways that's what was going on

00:12:45.880 with them at that very moment yes i mean and let's go back like why i love how the yeah they connected

00:12:51.780 with banister in that way but i just find it like why what i think matera sort of speculates why

00:12:57.060 banister went pirate he had all this going for him but he decided to go pirate and i think matera came

00:13:04.540 to the conclusion that it was the sort of love of democracy i think you know these guys when they

00:13:10.200 discovered early on that the pirate ship was not where all of you know three centuries of history

00:13:15.960 believed it was and that they were going to have to do something way outside the box to try to find

00:13:21.780 unfindable ship they determined that they're going to have to get into the head and even more

00:13:26.580 importantly into the heart of this pirate banister in order to think like him and feel like him and

00:13:31.820 find their way to him and so matera who's really a historian since he's a little boy starts to do all

00:13:38.680 kinds of original research all over the world and he starts to learn not just about pirates of the golden

00:13:44.000 age which was about from 1650 to 1720 but he starts to understand what was going on on pirate ships

00:13:50.200 these were the first democracies these are democracies um that took hold a century before

00:13:56.320 they came to america and at that point matera starts to make a connection with banister the person

00:14:02.780 he starts to feel that this guy could not have made this leap would not have made this leap

00:14:07.740 other for anything other than the feeling of being completely free and being with a group of of people

00:14:16.100 who went in the way they decided free from any government free from any rules or laws everything

00:14:22.580 on the pirate ship was a democracy everybody's vote carried the same weight so banister had the same

00:14:28.160 vote as the lowliest deckhand and the more matera and chatterton learned about this the more they

00:14:33.480 believed they could trace banister's heart to the location of his ship i i thought it was fascinating

00:14:38.900 the whole section you had about the pirate code of honor basically because i didn't know how the how

00:14:43.200 pirates worked um you're right it was they voted on everything like they voted on where they're

00:14:47.780 going to go uh the only time the captain i guess i was actually captain was in during battle is that

00:14:53.540 correct that's exactly right yeah and and then also there was like they had sort of like um i guess

00:14:59.640 you would say laws about how pirates are paid and like the captain couldn't be paid that much more

00:15:04.160 than the lowest deckhand absolutely the the pirate very very rarely got more than two or three times

00:15:10.300 what the lowest guy on board got and they voted on everything so if the pirate wanted to go pursue

00:15:16.180 a certain ship in a certain location and his crew felt differently then the pirate captain was overruled

00:15:22.000 and if he didn't like it at that point they could throw him off or maroon him or worse even if the

00:15:27.160 pirate captain himself owned his own ship like banister so the fact that banister stayed in charge of his

00:15:33.200 ship for several years as a pirate captain that intrigued chatterton and matera even more they knew that

00:15:38.760 this guy had commanded incredible respect but you're right everything they did a board was voted on

00:15:43.900 they had a constitution of rules and laws and bylaws that would have spun your head it was so fair and so

00:15:51.640 egalitarian you could not have believed it yeah and i mean the what i loved about this idea of banister

00:16:00.700 being sort of a lover of democracy i mean he he battled with i mean is that what is that why we find

00:16:08.300 pirates so intriguing is this in like especially like folk outlaws they would be those outlaws that

00:16:13.020 become heroes they sort of kind of stick it to the man and sort of exert their autonomy and is that why

00:16:18.260 we love to read stories about pirates i think that's exactly why every one of us feels bound in some way

00:16:24.720 or another as we make our way through the days of our lives these guys said no matter what the risk

00:16:30.820 it's worth it to just step off the dock and set sail really into freedom i mean these guys were

00:16:36.960 looking at the gallows if they got caught especially when banister did it where they were really really

00:16:41.580 closing in on the pirates but the idea of stepping away and saying we were bound by no laws and no

00:16:47.920 restrictions other than the those that we make for ourselves i think that's an absolutely timeless

00:16:53.600 thing i think it would have spoke spoken to the cavemen that idea of of freedom and that's really

00:17:00.120 uh what they believe in the end drove banister to take the massive risks he took by turning pirate

00:17:06.000 so what's the process of finding finding a ship that doesn't have any identifiable markers on it

00:17:11.920 that sunk 300 years ago um you you mentioned there's some technology involved but it seems like there's

00:17:17.500 there's stuff that happens on shore that has more of an influence on finding the ship

00:17:23.020 that's completely right in a certain way by undertaking this search for the pirate ship

00:17:29.360 chatterton matera were doing something insane because it wasn't going to be enough to them to

00:17:33.620 find the pirate ship they had to identify it and the odds of doing that are almost zero for the

00:17:39.820 reasons we discussed nonetheless the chance to do it was so rare and so unusual they they felt compelled

00:17:46.780 to do it now how they were going to identify it i think they they both suspected would have to be

00:17:52.840 done through history and on land that no matter how good they were at finding the physical remains of

00:17:59.360 the ship they were going to have to do some first-rate detective work that had never been done

00:18:05.180 in history before in order to prove that that wreck if they were lucky enough to find it was indeed the

00:18:11.120 golden fleece neither of them had any idea how they were going to do that only that by giving

00:18:16.720 being given this rare chance at this one point in their lives they couldn't say no and they had to

00:18:21.920 try and what amazed me is like they would travel all over the world to different libraries just to

00:18:27.540 do this this historical research i mean that i can't imagine how much money they sunk into this

00:18:32.200 project i mean it had to have been astronomical it was and you got to remember that this is after

00:18:36.740 they sunk an astronomical amount into gearing up for their treasure hunt so really you know this was

00:18:42.680 money that they had expected to spend finding a treasure they thought could be worth half a billion

00:18:48.700 dollars or more but they came to believe that they could do this in a reasonable amount of time

00:18:53.040 however things were not nearly that simple and when when things got to get complicated it was uh

00:18:59.560 worth it to them even if they had to spend their last dime in order to go find this because as john

00:19:05.460 matera told me the first time i ever talked to him about this story treasure gets found all the time

00:19:10.500 but a pirate ship i mean there's nothing like it so they in a certain way because they were

00:19:15.980 explorers at heart uh they had no choice in the matter well i don't want to talk about you know

00:19:21.680 any spoilers about what happens to banister and how why the sip shunk and how the the guys finally

00:19:27.540 found the book or find the boat because i want people to read the book because you just do a great

00:19:31.200 job uh telling the story but what are these guys doing now what are chatterton and matera doing

00:19:35.680 now are they still searching for ships or they sort of retired and got moved on in life no that's

00:19:41.720 the whole crux of the matter to them they cannot retire and um the idea you know when they they both

00:19:47.980 had made good in their lives professionally and got to middle age you know into their uh early 50s

00:19:53.540 for matera and late 50s for chatterton and they were advised by very reasonable people you know

00:19:58.400 take your money um i think one of them was uh urged to buy a dunkin donut franchise and the other to buy

00:20:06.420 a laundromat or manage an apartment building and and i mean this very literally brett i think both of

00:20:12.740 them would have rather died than do that uh the idea of living a life like that was um unacceptable to

00:20:19.460 them the question was what do you do and uh so the chance to go find a pirate ship or a treasure ship

00:20:26.240 that spoke to them the question then becomes after you do something like that what do you do

00:20:31.380 next and that's the question they're trying to answer now they're out in search of another great

00:20:36.100 shipwreck and i think they're going to be asking that question as long as they live i think all of

00:20:41.340 us i mean i think all of us are sort of like that you accomplish one big project and then you're just

00:20:46.020 trying to figure out what are you going to do next i think so and that's a scary prospect if you

00:20:50.340 don't have the answer in front of you at the moment but the alternative which is doing something

00:20:55.620 you know reasonable and predictable for the rest of your life is worse and that's what inspires me

00:21:01.240 about writing about guys like this that they're not ready to hang it up so you mentioned you kind

00:21:07.700 of mentioned this in the book throughout that the days of treasure hunting underwater treasure hunting

00:21:13.300 seem to be coming to an end i guess because countries are passing laws that make it illegal

00:21:20.680 uh for just sort of people to go out on their own and search for sunken treasure is this a profession

00:21:27.180 that's on the verge of extinction yes it's virtually extinct there are a handful of countries that still

00:21:32.880 allow it and you know there are arguments to be made by archaeologists and academics um and they're

00:21:39.160 reasonable sounding arguments which go something like you can't allow these treasure hunters to go

00:21:44.260 exploring these ships because they're not going to treat the artifacts in the way that a museum might or a

00:21:50.560 curator might they're just in it for the money um they don't care about the history and so they make

00:21:56.040 a very good case against private treasure hunters but i can tell you from being around these guys now

00:22:01.300 for 10 years or more that no one takes better care of shipwrecks partly because um it's in their

00:22:07.720 financial interest to do this you know you don't want to storm through a shipwreck and ruin things

00:22:11.780 um but partly because uh no one else is interested in the history in the way these guys are i have yet to

00:22:19.240 meet a treasure hunter or a shipwreck explorer who wasn't first and foremost interested in history

00:22:25.560 so uh that that's a huge benefit that a lot of people don't realize but beyond that um shipwreck

00:22:33.200 and treasure hunting is extremely expensive i mean it'll wipe out rich guys all the time and so

00:22:40.220 universities and archaeologists and scientists don't have the money to go hunt these ships it's only

00:22:45.560 these treasure hunters and the investors they can get behind them who are even able to go so if the

00:22:50.880 the private guys don't go the guys with that fire burning inside them um you're not going to get guys

00:22:56.520 to go look for these ships and they're going to remain lost forever yeah and i think you definitely

00:23:00.720 at the you have to have a sort of a cowboy mentality you have to have a pirate mentality right a sort of a

00:23:05.340 love of danger to do what these guys are doing because some of these wrecks are places that you know

00:23:09.920 it's hard to get to and i don't know if you would attract that sort of that sort of diver that sort

00:23:14.820 of sort of person in academia i i think it i think it might be um the antithesis of the academic

00:23:22.160 mindset you have to be a pirate to go do this and also to believe that you have the right to take

00:23:27.280 something from the sea i mean that's not something that would come to me naturally but you have to

00:23:31.740 believe in yourself in that way and that if you expend the money and especially risk your lives

00:23:37.860 because guys die doing this uh that you are um deserving of compensation and that compensation

00:23:43.440 is in the form of treasure or at least in the form of uh finding the shipwreck itself during the

00:23:48.580 process of writing this book did you have a chance to do any i mean i guess there's like wrecks where

00:23:52.820 they take tours and they can show consumers travelers a shipwreck have you had the chance to do that

00:23:58.880 yeah you know when when i was writing my first book shadow divers about the u-boat

00:24:03.500 this was an almost unreachable shipwreck especially back then it was sunk in 230 feet of very cold dark

00:24:10.240 water 60 miles off the coast of point pleasant new jersey so just the boat ride out there was a

00:24:16.800 violent experience and people died on that wreck very quickly after it was discovered but when you

00:24:22.560 go look in tropical waters for a pirate ship or a treasure ship often they're sunk in 10 or 20 feet of

00:24:29.300 water and once you find them you can sometimes look from the boat right down onto the wreck so

00:24:35.960 those are the wrecks that are much easier for a lay person like me to see and to go experience

00:24:40.260 cool um so you mentioned a little bit um that you one of the things you love about writing this book is

00:24:47.040 seeing these guys how you know they're just they're not willing to hang it up right they're they

00:24:51.480 just want to keep going and find that next that next treasure the next adventure um anything else

00:24:57.400 did you learn that you learned about life being a man in the process of researching and writing

00:25:02.740 this book i think the thing that stays with me the most is that the truly happy people i've come

00:25:10.660 across the truly uh contented men always have a risk taken in their background i don't know that i've

00:25:18.040 met any guy who's um really at peace with himself who doesn't have a risk in his background

00:25:24.540 and uh that's not to say that you should go around taking indiscriminate risks uh until you

00:25:30.940 hit upon something but that um these guys seem to accept intuitively you know on a dna level that a

00:25:37.240 risk at some point well considered is absolutely required uh really in the same way banister did it

00:25:43.340 that you know you could have a an easy soft landing ahead of you uh you can have it all laid out but

00:25:48.640 that's not the way to really get there so take more risks it's take more risks and understand that

00:25:54.680 uh there's really no way around it well robert where can people find out more about your book

00:25:59.760 oh you can go to my website it's just robert uh kurson k-u-r-s-o-n dot com there's uh all the

00:26:07.560 information's there and uh it should be able to tell you everything fantastic well robert kurson

00:26:12.420 this is a fantastic book and it just an amazing story you did a great job uh telling it so thank

00:26:18.240 you so much for your time it's been a pleasure right it's been a pleasure for me i'm a huge fan

00:26:21.700 of yours so this was a real privilege for me thank you thank you our guest is robert kurson he is the

00:26:26.200 author of the book pirate hunters treasure obsession and the search for a legendary pirate ship you can

00:26:31.100 find that on amazon.com go out and get it it's a fantastic summertime read you won't regret it also

00:26:36.740 you find out more information about the book and about the pirate ship with the golden fleece at robert

00:26:41.720 kurson kurson with the k dot com well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast

00:26:50.820 for more manly tips and advice make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com

00:26:55.540 and if you enjoy the podcast and you're getting feel like you're getting something out of it i'd

00:26:58.960 really appreciate it if you go to itunes or stitcher and give us a review that will help us

00:27:03.200 get the word out about the podcast other people uh so i'd really appreciate that and you're probably

00:27:08.060 noticing some different outro music this is actually music written by an art of manliness

00:27:12.520 reader and podcast listener jamie clark i want to thank jamie for doing this for us

00:27:17.440 a nice little little tune to go on out anyways until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay

00:27:23.440 manly

00:27:24.380 manly

00:27:24.400 you

00:27:25.680 so

00:27:32.240 yeah

00:27:36.440 so

00:27:42.860 Thank you.

The Art of Manliness - July 09, 2015

#122： Pirate Hunters With Robert Kurson

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