#123 StrongFirst and Kettlebells With Eric Frohardt
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Summary
In this episode of the Art of Manliness podcast, we discuss kettlebell training becoming stronger, not just physically, but mentally, and why strength is a skill. In this episode, we talk with Eric Froehart, CEO of the company Strong First, about his background in kettlebells, the history of the kettlebell movement, and his background as a decorated combat veteran with multiple tours of duty in Afghanistan.
Transcript
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welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast so for the past 10 years or so kettlebells
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have become a popular workout tool if you don't know what a kettlebell is basically a cannonball
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with a handle on it and you swing it around and it gives you both not only a strength workout but a
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cardio workout well the man who had a lot to do with the popularization of kettlebell training here
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in the united states his name is pavel tesalini and pavel started a company not too long ago called
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strong first which is dedicated to helping people become strong in all aspects of their life using
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not only kettlebells but barbells and bodyweight training anyways today on the show i have the ceo
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of strong first on with me his name is eric frohart he's a former u.s navy seal a decorated combat
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veteran with multiple tours of duty in iraq and afghanistan and today on the show we're going to
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talk kettlebell training becoming strong not just physically but mentally and why strength is a skill
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so it's going to be a great podcast a lot of great takeaways so let's do this
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eric frohart welcome to the show thank you brett appreciate it so you are the ceo of a company
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called strong first so what is strong first and what's the story behind it for our listeners who
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aren't familiar with it um well strong first is the school of strength and i'll get into that a little
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bit more later uh but the story behind strong first is pretty interesting pavel satsulin our
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founder and chairman started the some people call it the kettlebell revolution uh or movement back in
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the early 2000s uh he brought the uh the kettlebell over to the u.s and did some articles in some
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different magazines about it and it kind of caught on um he partnered with a publishing company
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uh based in minneapolis and wrote a few books and launched uh launched the first kind of global
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kettlebell instructor certification known as the rkc and uh at some point i believe it was
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2011 2012 uh due to some differences in the vision he left that organization which he kind of co-founded
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uh or founded or was organized in and uh as he left he formed strong first and i believe that was in
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2012 and many of the people who he had chosen as um senior instructors or master instructors or even team
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leader instructors within that organization uh kind of followed followed and joined strong first with
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them so there's that well so tell us about more about pavel because he's an interesting guy uh he's
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from russia what's his background it was something with the kgb or the russian military or yeah it's the uh
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the spets not the spets not that's right yeah they're uh they're you know their version of the special
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operations forces um he you know he's he's not very open about that part of his history so and pavel's a
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very you know he's a very private guy understandable and i am too right um but i mean so i think it's
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one of the things i find fascinating is this whole the the russian yeah mentality towards physical
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fitness um because they yeah during the 70s you know the during the cold war uh they were doing some
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crazy stuff experimentation on uh basically improving human performance that we sort of take for granted
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nowadays um is that is that sort of the research and this russian approach uh pervade strong first
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a bit or is it a you're taking you're building off of that and adding yeah the new research that's come
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in it's it is it's a mixture of both brett um yeah there's you know underpinnings in in that system and
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and pavel you know people forget he was a master of sports there and um it has to do with you know
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a certain level within uh you know the state of their fitness i'm not sure how to best describe that
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he uh he he's he does a very good job of of taking the complicated science and making it simple
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um you know there's uh his recent book kettlebell simple and sinister it seems extremely simple and
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it is uh it's very effective um but he basically distilled down a lot of science from that and uh
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you know made it a little more digestible um on the higher end of the spectrum he's got a we have a
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an event called plan strong and in that in that course it's like a it's a almost a two-day course
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he goes through some very very uh detailed programming uh methodologies or programs uh for
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making for people to use to get you know really strong on certain events so gotcha very very uh
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very very intelligent guy yeah super knowledgeable um so tell us about your story and how did you get
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involved with strong first absolutely uh well i was i was introduced uh to pavel's methods back in
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2005 a close friend of mine a teammate of mine named john foz showed me his kettlebell and john and i
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were seals together serving at the same seal team at the time and john was a very close friend of
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pavel's in fact pavel trained john as a high schooler and later on once john kind of
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had aspirations of becoming a navy seal he found he found pavel through uh you know through a magazine
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article and pavel was teaching people some some kettlebell training methods in minneapolis um
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so i met john and you know i saw him doing his kettlebell exercises and i i just you know was at least i was
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i was very curious because i was kind of sick of you know the standard uh lift weights one day cardio the
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next day kind of thing it just kind of just was burnt out um so i i spent some time using pavel's
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principles of strength uh with primarily with kettlebells and some barbell stuff and some bodyweight
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exercises but primarily kettlebells i just like the simplicity of it i did that for a few years
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um actually the first time i did it just for a few months right before a deployment
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and was completely shocked at how much better uh that tool and those those methods prepared me for
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um combat tours or as i like to say various adventures and it just for for the first time i just felt like
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the gear i was wearing felt light and i felt like i moved well and i felt really strong and i didn't get
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bigger while doing it i had done a lot of strength training stuff in the past but didn't like bulking
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up with it so fast forward from there i met pavel when he came to our team one time and trained us
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and uh really enjoyed meeting him uh a few a year after that i got certified and later after that i got
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certified through strong first when recertified through strong first when he uh when he moved
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uh i really loved the the training i love the way i love the way it made me feel and perform and and i
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am you know would never have taken this gig if i wasn't you know a big believer in it uh in 2014
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pavel uh hit me up on email and he asked me to help look for a new ceo at the time i was working at the
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uh the blue core shooting center which is a a firearms range retail and training facility that i co-founded
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here in hit here in denver and during one of my daily walks which i've seen you write about many
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many times um i was just kind of thinking about you know my future and my plans and stuff and i just
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it just kind of hit me that i should apply for that gig so after uh after kind of a lengthy interview
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process i was fortunate enough to be selected as the new ceo for strong first and so i stepped down
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from the day to day at blue core and um now i'm the ceo of strong first and it's been uh it's been
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really really fun you know challenging and rewarding um i did i did fail to mention that john fa is my
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best friend or one of my best friends in the navy and the guy that pavel trained and he's been
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mentioned in a few of pavel's books but john was actually he was killed in that helicopter crash
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in 2011 so that's uh that's kind of how pavel and i met and how uh we've stayed in contact and
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you know how i how uh you know how i took this gig right and for you've also helped us out on the art
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of manliness consulting on some articles uh yeah so we we did the uh how to pull an all-nighter
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yeah uh from a special force guy which you are uh which is it's funny whenever whenever it's like
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finals time right like december it's like there's like this uptick of people checking that that post
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out uh how to pull an all-nighter yeah and then the uh tactical way of dressing yeah which is a lot
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of fun so if you guys haven't seen those go googles and search that on the site um so let's talk about
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strong first like why the name strong first and like the philosophy behind that underlies what you
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the exercises that you all teach yeah no i'll just kind of start you know start with our mission you
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know we we want to make the world a stronger place we want to make people stronger um it's instead
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of a war against obesity we have a war against weakness right i like that we are what we are is
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we're a school of strength and we help people achieve high levels of strength in a safe efficient
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and effective manner and this is important without interfering with their lives their jobs or their
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duties and that was important to me uh when i was a seal that the training i did didn't didn't hurt me
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or my my ability to perform my duty and it's important to you know firemen policemen law enforcement
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whatever like military law enforcement first responders it's important that your training
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you know makes you stronger yet not interferes with what you're trying to do um we we are we believe
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that strength is a master quality in other words getting stronger helps all other physical endeavors
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and we believe that strength has a greater purpose strength in the gym is really cool but strength for
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real life applications is more important and that can be that can be as simple as or as as cool as
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you know a navy seal getting stronger for a mission uh or more realistic but in my opinion just as cool as
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you know having having uh you know someone who used to be deconditioned or weak who can now you know
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do chores around the house and pick up pick up you know luggage in the airport just actually feel
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strong and be strong so uh that's who we are we are we are strong first uh but but not strong only
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um as mentioned earlier we believe you know strength is important it's a master quality and that having
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high levels of strength will improve all other physical attributes attributes um whether it's
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mobility flexibility agility or all those you know coordination work capacity there's a number of
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them being strong will help you uh in all of those it'll also help you be you know from from being a
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dancer to playing football um distance running to power lifting yoga to mma um if people get stronger
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they just watch uh they can just watch themselves improve um we have a saying like we want people
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to you know be what you want as i mentioned it could be a football player a dancer a runner a power
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lifter fighter whatever be whatever you want but be strong first um and we don't we don't diminish
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any of the other physical qualities right if you ever attend any of our events uh our certs or our
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courses you'll notice we spend time working on mobility flexibility and discussing conditioning
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but we we've chosen not to be all things to all people our niche is strength training and and being
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strong is tightness so how do you make people stronger uh you mentioned the kettlebell and there
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seems like there's an emphasis on the kettlebell uh what's so great about the little cannonball thing
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with the handle on it it's i mean there's a lot of different things um we we have a principle
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based system and our principles are time honored battle tested and and proven and these these
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principles help people achieve high levels of strength and we focus on being safe efficient and
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effective with all of our training in fact we don't call it training we call it practice um because
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strength is a skill and that is an example of one of our principles strength is a skill i love that
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i love that the idea that strength is a skill that is really cool oh it's really it's a really important
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it's one of our most important principles and um it's just we use that and many other principles and we
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have different tools obviously we're most known for the kettlebell but we have barbell and bodyweight
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courses and certifications as well and uh certainly as i mentioned we're most known for the kettlebell
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um but our our principles are the same in all the different certs and events there are some things that
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are interesting about the kettlebell and the obvious emphasis is that the whole kettlebell revolution
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was started by paul and uh as i mentioned he introduced it to western culture in the early 2000s
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and since then um he's been building and refining our curriculum into what it is today
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and simply put the the kettlebell is just very efficient and effective and it's also very safe
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if the exercises are done um correctly you can you can reach high levels of strength and high levels of
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conditioning with a very simple tool that takes takes very little space
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can be used in the home and takes very little time so that's that is uh some of the reasons behind
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the popularity of it and for us it's just it's kind of it's kind of a just a great all-around tool um
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really for anybody so yeah but one of the things about the kettlebell it's not just a strength
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tool it's also could be as a conditioning tool absolutely work capacity um i actually you know speaking of
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how it's just it's can fit in your house right you don't really need much much space i have like a
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kettlebell right by my kitchen just sitting there and whenever it's the whole greasing the groove
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principle which i got from paul absolutely uh whenever i walk by it no matter what i'll stop
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and do five kettlebell swings with yeah no that's great that's a great way to you know grease the groove
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is just it's one of his many you know awesome programs uh it's worked well with you know with
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kettlebell movements uh pull-ups is a really good one too yeah i got that going out i have yeah so
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yeah explain what grease the groove is because it's a pretty cool it's it's so simple but it can it has
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such profound implications if you actually put into practice yeah no it's really cool it's just it's
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simple you know you're you're just kind of practicing a movement or grooving a pattern um
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you know kind of randomly throughout the day uh and the idea is instead of doing let's say my
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let's say i'm going to practice doing uh one arm or just pull-ups right and instead of doing my five
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sets of five pull-ups one after another with a couple of minutes break in between if i do them
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throughout the day it allows me to practice each set uh more well rested so if i'm going to
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do heavy pull-ups it works really well and i can get strong i just kind of you know there's a lot of
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things about it what i've always found is it just tricks you into doing uh a lot of volume as well as
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doing uh none of the in none of the sets are you really tired yeah right because you're not doing
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five sets of five or whatever right after another you're kind of just doing it as you pass by yeah
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exactly so i have one of those doorframe pull-up bars right another place and anytime i walk under
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it i crank out five pull-ups perfect and what yeah what i love about the grease the groove thing is that
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whole idea that strength is a skill because a lot of people think that okay to get stronger you just
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need to build up muscle mass but there's a nervous the nerve process in there your nerves have to learn
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how to contract your muscles uh in a certain way in order to maximize on that muscle capacity
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absolutely there's you know there's a and i'm not pavel is really good at this stuff you know
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explaining it uh and and some of our senior instructors also very good at it uh all of our
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you know our leadership from team leader to senior to master they would know all this stuff a little bit
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better what i what i find is that um when you treat it like a practice you want to approach each
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you know each practice session so that most of them you leave feeling better yeah because you're
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maintaining good form throughout you're not there to get the burn and the neat thing about that is
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it's a it's a good way to get strong without bulking up and you mentioned the you know the the mind to
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muscle connection it's it's very very critical um just teaching your teaching your uh um teaching
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yourself to get full recruitment out of a muscle or not full but more recruiting out of your muscle
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versus just growing the size of that muscle right so it's yeah it's a very it's a very very powerful
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powerful thing um and it's very it's it's part of you know a bunch of our different programs from
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grease the groove simple and sinister easy strength things like that it's it's very very uh important
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that you get that you know that mind to muscle connection yeah so if you're listening this is a
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great thing like do this go out and get one of those doorframe pull-up bars that cost like 15 bucks
1.00
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put in your doorframe anytime you walk through it crank out five pull-ups or if you can't even do a
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pull just do one pull-up yep hang add on yeah or just hang right or you can do the same thing with
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the kettlebell um so one of the things i've noticed about strong first and the content you put on the
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website and as well as in the the content in the books is that you focus on the psychology of strength
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as well um not just the the physical aspects so my question is uh what psychological barriers do you
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think get in the way of people getting strong or stronger yeah um it's i mean i think there's a
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a few different ones um you know we we we believe as many do that attitude is everything and um we spend
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a lot about a lot of time talking about it and we try to distinguish ourselves you know as strong
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first instructors we try to distinguish ourselves from the uh you know the hordes of trainers um
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littering the landscape of the industry um we like to know pavlo says we're not trainers we're
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instructors trainers trainers have dogs we have students and uh you know um he also says that we
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don't have clients hairstylists have clients we have students right so it's it's definitely a mindset
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thing um our our instructors they're brought together by you know the beliefs i mentioned
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earlier one of which is strength has a greater purpose and strength is a skill and things like
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that and they realize that the uh the barriers preventing preventing some people from uh achieving
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their potential in strength training there's just a number of different ones and some people get
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worried that they'll you know they'll get too big if they start strength training right so they're
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more interested in you know being lean and not getting strong and they don't understand that
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getting strong is a really awesome way to get lean and it's it's muscles that actually work versus
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you know muscles that look and if it was easy to get to just get big by strength training
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the uh the supplement industry wouldn't be as successful as it was right like there's so many
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people that are are lifting and taking supplements and they still can't you know in their mind get big
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enough so we kind of combat that that you know you won't really get too big if you strength train and
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it's um you get incredibly strong without getting much bigger than you already are and most people
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actually lose weight when they start even though they'll be gaining some muscle
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um and as you start to get better and you start to pursue goals then you sometimes tell yourself
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if you as you have a new goal or if you see other goals that people have achieved um you know there
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there's the voice in your head saying i can't do that right um and we try to convince people that
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you know we have we have a number of people who have achieved you know amazing physical feats
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either as our you know beast tamers or uh tactical strength challenges or other you know other
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little goals that we have and they're not all huge right so it's in many cases it's mind over matter
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especially if you look at it as uh strength training as a practice and that consistency trumps intensity
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you know in the long run yeah the big problem is some people find our protocols kind of boring and
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and it's just like grease the groove is not that sexy no it's not every time you walk by the pull-up
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bar do pull-ups um the problem is uh you know we don't chase fads what we do is timeless we stick to
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what works whether it's the principle or the tool uh the tool being the kettlebell the barbell or the
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body weight um we we understand that many people get the uh the exercise exercise addd and um they
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want to do you know they want to do something new they want to quote feel the burn they can i've heard
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people say oh i did swings twice last week and now now i'm an expert what's next and they don't so
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they don't want to stick to it and master the basics and quite honestly i saw the same thing in
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firearms training um you would have people who can finally hit a target five yards away
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and they want to start moving and shooting with the lights off oh yeah um you know so they don't
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they don't really care about the basics and when i was you know i was in the military when
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when i was a young navy seal there was a place that we got some high-end firearms training
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and the instructors there they said a bunch of different things and and many of them stuck with
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me but none more than than this statement and that is the best do the basics better and i've used that
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in so many parts of my life now and i i think it's so true in in physical training or firearms training
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our world is full of people who are quote bored with the basics and mediocre if they would just spend
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time on on the basics in firearms training you know the basic trigger squeeze uh at three yards and
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things like that and in the kettlebell world you know our our kettlebell swing if you had people uh
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spend time on those basics they'd be a lot better off they just get uh you know they just get bored
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um as pavel says many times the uh the kettlebell swing takes like five minutes to learn
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and a lifetime to master so um i think i think if people spent more time on basics and stuck you know
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stuck to their goals instead of changing programs every you know every three weeks they'd be a lot
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better off yeah i love that yeah the whole idea i guess what they call it in martial arts they call
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that the white belt mentality right and uh i love there's all these like anecdotal stories from like
00:25:38.120
vince lombardi like on the first day of practice he would first thing he was doing he put hold up a
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football and says gentlemen this is a football and he explained to him this is a football field
00:25:47.160
divided up into 100 yards and then um wooden the ucla basketball coach yeah he did something like
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the first day of practice he would like show them how to tie their shoes so they wouldn't come untied
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like that's awesome just the basics right and that and they were incredibly successful because they
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focused on those basics absolutely yeah no i i've seen it you know martial arts is a great analogy
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you have you have you have whether it's jujitsu or krav maga whatever you're taking some schools you
00:26:19.820
go to and you learn like six moves in an hour yeah and you feel like wow that was cool and then
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you can't recall any of them yeah it matters but the good ones they spend time you know drilling
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one thing and to the point of boredom but then you can you can draw on it when you need it
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yeah i love that and one thing i've noticed too whenever um you start focusing on the basics is
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that and you have that mentality of trying to get better at it is that you start it starts getting
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like actually really interesting because you start noticing nuances um that you didn't notice as a
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beginner but it takes a while to get to that place though absolutely uh i mean and that can be as
00:27:00.120
simple as you know i've been doing martial arts for a while and i'm starting to notice like just
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just tweaking little things about hitting the heavy bag and you know where the power comes from and
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when to tense up and when to relax and stuff like that and the kettlebell is especially our ballistic
00:27:17.420
moves like the kettlebell swing it's such a neat balance between tense relax tense relax and and the
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you know the hip drive and things like that so it's uh and when to how long it floats versus you know
00:27:32.300
forcing it down uh there's just a lot of different things you can do with it so you guys offer uh
00:27:38.200
several courses uh with your with the school of strength and i you know we we do a lot of fitness
00:27:44.000
content on the site and one complaint i would call it some guys say we we talk about too like too much
00:27:50.460
like advanced stuff guys who are already fit right for the guy who's just like man that he needs to lose
00:27:56.040
30 40 pounds he hasn't exercised maybe ever in his life uh what's a good entry point exercise or course
00:28:04.320
for that that kind of guy yeah yeah um so for most people we always recommend they uh um
00:28:12.880
they they have a couple of options they can look for a uh a strong first uh certified instructor in
00:28:21.320
their area to show them some some basics with the kettlebell or barbell or body weight um it takes
00:28:28.460
um it it's it's important that if you're going to use kettlebells that you learn how to use them
00:28:37.100
safely um you see them in gyms all the time now and for the most part even the trainers at gyms are
00:28:43.800
doing the exercises wrong um but you know finding a finding an instructor getting a lesson or a group
00:28:50.260
class is is a great way to start another and i would recommend that before just buying kettlebells
00:28:56.600
and you know clicking youtube and say it go yeah another great option we have we we created user
00:29:04.320
courses uh and we have the user course for the kettlebell barbell and body weight the kettlebell is
00:29:09.740
the most popular user course and uh it's a very in-depth uh user course it's about eight hours um but you
00:29:18.620
spend a lot of time learning the basic moves and um it's a good way to learn those moves
00:29:25.240
in a in a course setting a non-intimidating environment and it's a single day um instead of
00:29:32.780
you know our certifications are three days long and they obviously cost a lot more money and not
00:29:37.860
everybody wants to be a kettlebell instructor so um we created this user course and it's a really good
00:29:43.700
option is this something they had to come out to denver for yeah no we have user courses all over
00:29:49.440
okay cool from uh you know in most states now we have user courses um but we have a user course in
00:29:56.400
denver if you ever want to come out i need to get out to denver actually my uh managing editor jeremy
00:30:01.200
lives in denver oh cool maybe i'll get him over there yeah send him send him uh send him my info i'd love
00:30:07.940
to love to send him to a user course and let him know what it goes have him uh let me know what he thinks
00:30:12.580
yeah fantastic um so what about the guy who's intermediate right or here's a question like i
00:30:18.300
know we have a lot of guys uh who are leos or in the military um do you guys have specific like
00:30:25.020
training programs for these type of guys yeah um we uh we we do a lot of training for law enforcement
00:30:31.940
and military um it's we don't really have much of that on the website yet we're you know we're going
00:30:40.460
to have our own kind of division that just focuses on that at some point we've we've already been
00:30:46.340
doing it without you know without really um having that yet um but we do there's some very very basic
00:30:54.180
stuff for them uh the kettlebell and body weight in particular are popular because they're just very
00:31:00.400
easy to have when you travel and um i i mean i'm a really firm believer in it i when i when i started
00:31:09.840
using the kettlebell my my kit my body armor whatever you want to call it it started to feel
00:31:15.920
a lot lighter i felt like i'd move around a lot better and um yeah it just really really worked
00:31:21.540
cool um so here's if you had to choose one single lift movement exercise right for someone to do
00:31:30.900
uh i know it's probably like picking children um but what would it be
00:31:34.800
um i mean for me that's an easy an easy question i would say hands down the kettlebell swing
00:31:42.740
um as i mentioned before you can you can learn it very quickly but you can spend a lifetime trying
00:31:49.000
to master it um it's a just a great movement or a great exercise for for strength and conditioning
00:31:56.380
um we've used it we've used it to help elite endurance athletes and elite power lifters um and
00:32:04.700
myself i used it you know to make myself a better soldier better operator uh it carries over to a lot of
00:32:11.680
different athletic endeavors in fact i once i once took my deadlift from 360 to 450 and this was at a body weight
00:32:21.300
of 180 so from two to two and a half times my body weight i took my deadlift up that much just by
00:32:28.480
doing three months of swings three days a week at varying intensities and and we call that the what
00:32:36.280
the heck effect because i didn't do deadlifts and i didn't do whatever that i was testing but i saw that
00:32:42.560
stuff go up or improve um nowadays i do almost no cardio i jump rope a couple times a week i do uh
00:32:51.280
a one mile walk each day of course and uh sometimes i i hike or ski on weekends and
00:32:58.220
typically i do kettlebell swings at least two to five uh days a week depending on what program i'm on
00:33:05.100
and um so no real no real uh you know cardio per se uh like most people consider cardio you know the
00:33:14.680
treadmill or the uh elliptical none of that boredom uh or as pavel says none of that dishonor
00:33:20.780
uh i and all i do is the hiking and you know the jump rope and the kettlebell and i just got a
00:33:28.140
physical and my heart rate was 47 beats a minute so it really does work as a form of uh of cardio and
00:33:37.300
the kettlebell swing is as as we say it's it's the center of the kettlebell universe if you have a
00:33:43.640
good swing you're going to be good at most of the other moves that's awesome man you've got me i'm
00:33:49.340
gonna go do kettlebell swings now yeah i'm drinking the cool i'm gonna go do it right now yeah well
00:33:55.160
that's a good thing it's i have one here in the office it just fits everywhere they do i mean what
00:34:00.580
so here's like what weight do you suggest for guys that's a good question i some uh most guys will
00:34:07.980
get the most use out of the 24 kilo uh i think that's about 53 pounds and some
00:34:14.580
is that a pood yeah i think so i have to look at the yeah one pood one pood two poods a lot of a lot
00:34:24.400
of people will get you know will will start at the 16 kilo that's not enough that's not enough for most
00:34:31.400
but uh it's a well there's some good there's some good you know some good uh moves you can do with that
00:34:38.140
i right now i'm doing the simple and sinister protocol and i'll you know i'll kind of go back
00:34:44.700
and forth between the uh the 24 and the 32 kilo so okay 32 kilos like 72 pounds or something awesome
00:34:53.880
cool simple and sinister that's the new book right yeah yep so yeah where can people find out more about
00:34:59.760
strong first and uh the programming you all offer yeah just check us out on strong uh you know
00:35:06.300
strong first dot com um it's all kind of laid out there with our courses and our certs and
00:35:11.240
links to the different books and uh you know it's just uh that's that's where we you know where we send
00:35:18.180
people and if they want if they want to find uh you know a strong first instructor in their area they
00:35:23.900
can they can find uh find those instructors through our through our page awesome well eric for
00:35:30.560
this has been an awesome conversation thank you so much for your time it's been a pleasure
00:35:33.540
thanks brad appreciate it have a good day our guest today was eric frohart he's the ceo of
00:35:39.640
strong first you can find out more information about strong first and their training programs at
00:35:46.220
well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice
00:35:53.920
make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com and if you enjoy the show
00:35:58.300
you've gotten something out of it please please please give us a review on itunes or stitcher
00:36:02.200
that'll help get the word out and the best compliment you could give us is to recommend
00:36:06.500
the podcast to a friend we'd really appreciate it anyways until next time this is brett mckay