The Art of Manliness - October 16, 2015


#147： The Importance of Mindset With Carol Dweck


Episode Stats


Length

21 minutes

Words per minute

138.64302

Word count

2,950

Sentence count

203

Harmful content

Misogyny

1

sentences flagged

Hate speech

2

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, Dr. Carol Dweck and I discuss the difference between a fixed mindset and a growth mindset, and how we can help our children develop a mindset that will allow them to be successful in life.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:00:18.760 So talent is an important part of our success in life, the talent that we develop through
00:00:22.640 deliberate practice or the talent that we were just born with.
00:00:26.160 But there's another factor that contributes a lot to our success, and that is our mindset.
00:00:31.360 And my guest today has spent decades researching mindset.
00:00:34.920 Her name is Carol Dweck.
00:00:36.380 She wrote a book called Mindset, The New Psychology to Success.
00:00:40.060 And her research has shown that there are basically two mindsets that a person can have,
00:00:45.000 a growth mindset or a fixed mindset.
00:00:47.660 And the mindset that you have will determine your success in life.
00:00:51.540 So today on the podcast, we're going to discuss these two mindsets,
00:00:54.740 how we can develop the mindset that will lead to success,
00:00:57.380 and what we can do as parents, as fathers, to help our children develop a growth mindset
00:01:02.680 that will help them, put them in a position for lasting success through their life.
00:01:06.960 Really great discussion.
00:01:08.020 Going to get a lot out of it.
00:01:09.080 So without further ado, Carol Dweck and Mindset.
00:01:19.720 Carol Dweck, welcome to the show.
00:01:21.800 Pleasure to be here.
00:01:22.760 So you have spent your career researching mindsets,
00:01:27.080 and you uncovered that there are two mindsets, broad mindsets,
00:01:30.720 that people can have about themselves.
00:01:32.520 It's a fixed mindset and a growth mindset.
00:01:35.580 Can you briefly describe the characteristics of these mindsets?
00:01:39.700 Absolutely.
00:01:41.040 Now, we're all a mixture, but when we're in a fixed mindset,
00:01:45.220 or people who are predominantly in a fixed mindset,
00:01:48.540 that believe that their basic qualities, their talents and abilities are just these fixed traits,
00:01:55.240 you have a certain amount, that's it.
00:01:58.800 But when you're in a growth mindset, you understand that, yeah, people differ,
00:02:04.260 but even the most basic talents and abilities can be developed through your hard work,
00:02:10.420 your good strategy, your input and mentoring from others.
00:02:15.120 Okay.
00:02:15.720 And how do we develop these mindsets?
00:02:17.400 Is it something that happens in childhood, the way we're brought up?
00:02:20.120 Is it something innate, temperament?
00:02:21.640 What's going on there?
00:02:22.420 Yes, all of the above.
00:02:24.420 But first, let me point out why these mindsets make such a difference.
00:02:28.280 Sure.
00:02:29.260 When you're in a fixed mindset and you think, oh, my intelligence is fixed,
00:02:33.480 you're always asking, am I smart?
00:02:36.220 Am I not smart?
00:02:37.120 Will this make me look smart?
00:02:38.440 Oh, I made a mistake.
00:02:39.440 Will people think I'm not smart?
00:02:41.020 You're kind of obsessed with what level your traits are fixed at.
00:02:46.060 And so you're often less likely to take risks or to give up more easily when you have setbacks.
00:02:53.800 But when you believe your abilities can be developed, well, okay, you go for it.
00:03:02.540 A risk isn't that risky.
00:03:04.460 A setback is a natural part of learning.
00:03:07.120 And people end up accomplishing more in the long run when they have a growth mindset.
00:03:13.040 So as you asked, where do these mindsets come from?
00:03:17.460 Are we born that way or what?
00:03:21.580 And we don't rule out the idea that your temperament can play a role.
00:03:28.220 Some kids come out and they're kind of more afraid of mistakes, more sensitive to criticism.
00:03:39.240 Other kids tear around the world.
00:03:41.420 And, you know, devil may care.
00:03:44.880 But we have shown in our research that the environment can play a really big role.
00:03:51.580 And in particular, the kind of praise adults give to kids.
00:03:56.600 We've found that when you praise intelligence or ability, it puts kids into a fixed mindset.
00:04:04.800 It says, hey, you've got a fixed ability.
00:04:07.700 I can tell what it is.
00:04:09.320 And it seems good.
00:04:11.300 But then the child's always worried that the next time they won't look so good and you'll take back that praise.
00:04:18.160 So they become more cautious and vulnerable.
00:04:21.380 But when kids are given process praise, and by that it's praise for not just hard work, but also strategies, focus, improvement, that conveys the idea, hey, your abilities can be developed and this is how you do it.
00:04:41.340 Okay, so you don't say your kid, oh, you're so smart.
00:04:44.620 You say something like, you worked really hard on that.
00:04:47.680 Yeah.
00:04:48.360 Okay.
00:04:48.940 We tried a lot of different ways to do it and they worked.
00:04:53.140 And you said earlier that we could be a mixture of both.
00:04:56.400 How can we both have a fixed and growth mindset or certain situations we have a fixed mindset and other situations we're more growth mindset oriented?
00:05:05.980 Exactly.
00:05:07.460 We can have one area in which we believe our talents can be developed and another where we think they're fixed.
00:05:13.940 Or you can maybe a lot of the time be in more of a growth mindset, but then there are certain triggers that elicit a fixed mindset.
00:05:23.320 For example, when you're asked to step way out of your comfort zone, then you think, uh-oh, will I show up my fixed abilities?
00:05:35.240 Or when you have a serious setback or you're struggling with something, that may lead you to take a fixed mindset perspective on your abilities.
00:05:44.940 Or you encounter someone who's so much better than you are at something you think you're good at.
00:05:50.200 You think, uh-oh, they're talented, I'm not.
00:05:53.020 So even people who have predominantly a growth mindset may have these events or situations that trigger a fixed mindset.
00:06:04.240 And it's important to be aware of them.
00:06:06.520 Okay.
00:06:06.940 Well, before we get into talking about if you're an adult and how you can sort of transition to a growth mindset,
00:06:12.800 the research in your book is fascinating how having a fixed mindset or a growth mindset can affect different areas of your life.
00:06:19.800 For example, relationships.
00:06:21.300 How can a fixed mindset be a detriment to your relationship and how can a growth mindset help nurture a good, strong relationship?
00:06:30.300 Well, when you're in a fixed mindset, you're always proving yourself.
00:06:34.020 So if you have a disagreement with your partner, you have to be right.
00:06:39.440 Or say there's a real problem in the relationship.
00:06:43.720 Something goes wrong.
00:06:45.560 Am I the bad person?
00:06:47.920 Is he the bad person?
00:06:50.000 Is the relationship gone?
00:06:53.500 Has it gone sour?
00:06:54.960 So you're always looking to judge.
00:06:57.780 Am I good or bad?
00:06:58.940 Is the partner good or bad?
00:07:00.160 Is the relationship good or bad?
00:07:01.960 Instead of focusing on solving the problem in a growth mindset, you think, okay, let's focus on the problem.
00:07:12.740 Let's do something about it.
00:07:14.100 And maybe the relationship will even grow from that.
00:07:17.580 As a legacy of my fixed mindset, I did have this, I told you so, or this tendency to want to be right or blame.
00:07:28.780 So my husband and I invented this guy, Maurice.
00:07:33.380 And we blamed Maurice for everything so that we could then actually stop playing the blame game, focus on the problem, and solve it.
00:07:45.220 So, I mean, you had a fixed mindset before going into – how did you discover this idea of fixed and growth mindsets?
00:07:52.220 Was it something you uncovered in yourself or that you saw in other people first?
00:07:56.960 It's both.
00:07:58.780 It's both.
00:08:00.320 You know, often psychologists are teased that we do not research but me-search.
00:08:09.700 And so I came out of quite a fixed mindset background.
00:08:14.660 I grew up in the heyday of the IQ test.
00:08:18.000 My six-way teacher seated us around the room in IQ order, and I felt like, oh, I always have to look perfect and all that.
00:08:25.220 So when I went to graduate school, I became very interested in studying how people cope with failure and setbacks.
00:08:34.860 Because even though I was pretty successful, I worried about stepping out of my comfort zone and maybe not looking smart.
00:08:43.740 As I studied, I started by studying kids.
00:08:47.220 And as I studied them, I saw that some kids were devastated when they failed.
00:08:53.100 But other kids, when I gave them problems that were too hard, loved it.
00:08:58.680 They said things like, oh, I love a challenge.
00:09:02.080 Or I was hoping this would be informative.
00:09:05.380 And I thought, wow, this is crazy.
00:09:07.540 This is fabulous.
00:09:08.560 I'm going to figure out their secret.
00:09:10.920 And I disseminate that secret widely.
00:09:15.640 Okay, so they had the growth mindset.
00:09:18.520 Yes.
00:09:19.620 Ultimately, I figured out in my research that it was the mindsets that were creating these different reactions to failure.
00:09:30.340 Interesting.
00:09:30.780 I thought it was really interesting how you talked about how your mindset can even affect things like depression or anxiety.
00:09:37.900 Can you talk a little bit about that?
00:09:39.640 Yes.
00:09:40.120 We studied undergraduate students at a university on the East Coast where I used to teach.
00:09:50.660 And we found that by the springtime, there was a long winter.
00:09:54.500 And by the springtime, a lot of the students were pretty depressed, really bad moods, really feeling bad about themselves.
00:10:07.720 But we found that they reacted to this depression in different ways.
00:10:13.120 Now, I'm not talking about clinical depression.
00:10:15.780 They're not able to function.
00:10:19.500 But, you know, moderate depression.
00:10:21.940 And we found that the students who were in more of a fixed mindset started letting things go.
00:10:29.920 They didn't do their chores.
00:10:31.760 They might not hand in their paper on time.
00:10:34.120 But the students who were more in a growth mindset made sure they forced themselves to get up, shower, groom, do their chores, go to their meetings, study for their tests.
00:10:52.540 So this kind of growth mindset didn't let the mood overtake them.
00:10:57.740 They felt they could still function, still develop, still go for it.
00:11:02.400 And so that when their moods lifted, their life was intact.
00:11:10.040 That's fascinating.
00:11:11.120 And so basically, if someone out there is listening to this and they tend to get in a low mood every now and then, there's that temptation, I guess, when you are in a low mood to think that things are never going to get better.
00:11:21.840 Yes.
00:11:22.600 I'm always going to be like this.
00:11:24.300 But that's not necessarily the case.
00:11:26.120 Yes, not at all.
00:11:27.120 And we also find in other research, we and others have found, people in a fixed mindset don't like effort.
00:11:35.300 They feel like if you're good at something, it should be easy.
00:11:38.920 And so effort is really tasteful.
00:11:41.240 When you're depressed, everything is effortful.
00:11:45.220 So that adds to the feeling of incompetence.
00:11:48.840 Going back to this idea of effort, it seems like our culture contributes to a fixed mindset because there's this idea that everything should be like, what's that French word?
00:12:02.080 Savoir-feuille.
00:12:03.120 Savoir-feuille.
00:12:03.800 Yeah.
00:12:04.260 You know, just like be like the Fonz, right?
00:12:06.620 Everything's just cool.
00:12:08.000 Cool.
00:12:08.520 You don't have to really try hard.
00:12:10.140 Yeah.
00:12:10.660 Has that contributed to a fixed mindset in individuals?
00:12:13.600 It absolutely does.
00:12:15.900 The idea that if you're really smart and cool and competent, you know, you should just slide along.
00:12:28.740 Life should be easy.
00:12:30.160 Things should come easily.
00:12:31.500 That is what people believe when they're in a fixed mindset, and that's where the culture, one way the culture contributes to that.
00:12:42.940 But I ask the students in my courses to look up their hero.
00:12:48.400 They always think their hero was one of these people who coasted to greatness on their enormous talent, and they coasted easily.
00:12:58.040 But they always, every single time, find out that that person worked harder than anyone else, had setbacks, overcame those setbacks, and that's how they got where they got.
00:13:15.380 Awesome.
00:13:16.140 So, I mean, what can adults do, right?
00:13:18.080 If someone's listening to this right now, and they're saying, well, I'm kind of a fixed mindset kind of guy, what can you do to shift into a growth mindset?
00:13:26.400 The first step is to acknowledge that you have fixed mindset moments, at least fixed mindset moments, and get in touch with them.
00:13:41.520 Start figuring out when these fixed mindsets get triggered.
00:13:48.580 As I said before, is it when you're trying something hard out of your comfort zone?
00:13:54.620 Is it when you're struggling or have setbacks?
00:13:57.680 Is it when you're comparing yourself to someone who has more ability at the moment?
00:14:03.500 Is it when someone is criticizing you?
00:14:07.900 So, start figuring out when does my fixed mindset get triggered.
00:14:15.940 Now, my colleague in Australia named Susan Mackey has business executives not only figure out their triggers, but has them give their fixed mindset persona a name.
00:14:30.300 So, you might call your fixed mindset persona Dwayne or Harriet or Yanni, whatever.
00:14:38.960 So, you notice when Dwayne pops up, you notice how that makes you feel and think.
00:14:46.400 You notice the impact it has on people around you.
00:14:50.240 And then, little by little, you start working with Dwayne to see how maybe you can collaborate with him.
00:15:01.900 Next time, maybe he'll be a little less defensive or a little less anxious, a little less defeated, a little less aggressive in these trigger situations.
00:15:15.120 And then, beyond that, it's just like recognizing or acknowledging that there is a growth mindset, that you can get better.
00:15:22.400 Is that part of the process as well?
00:15:24.180 Yes.
00:15:24.660 Keep setting these growth goals, how you want to improve, how you want to grow.
00:15:30.360 And keep noticing when your fixed mindset person crops up and tries to prevent you from meeting those goals.
00:15:38.900 Yeah, I thought it was really sad and also empowering to listen to the story about when you're talking about or teaching kids in inner city schools about the growth mindset.
00:15:51.580 And there's one little boy or girl that said, you mean my brain isn't going to be broken anymore?
00:15:56.580 I mean, it was like crushing.
00:15:57.860 It was just like heart crushing to hear that person.
00:15:59.800 But it was also like, man, he's going to get better because he knows he can get better.
00:16:03.880 He did.
00:16:04.280 He really caught fire.
00:16:05.500 He really pulled up those grades and worked with the teacher avidly.
00:16:12.500 And so besides praising process over results, are there anything other things that parents can do and teachers or mentors can do to encourage growth mindset?
00:16:23.740 Yes.
00:16:24.380 We have new research showing how you react to your kids' mistakes or setbacks is crucial.
00:16:35.500 That parents who react to their kids' mistakes as though they can be harmful, harmful to the child's learning, those kids are developing a fixed mindset.
00:16:48.020 Oh, failure is so terrible.
00:16:50.340 You know, it must mean something bad about me.
00:16:52.560 Even when the parent says they have a growth mindset, but parents who react as though, hey, this setback is interesting.
00:17:02.420 It's going to help you learn.
00:17:03.920 Let's talk about it.
00:17:05.260 That helps a child develop a growth mindset.
00:17:08.780 Interesting.
00:17:10.780 And I'm curious if your research has found anything where a fixed mindset, does it affect boys or girls differently?
00:17:18.640 Are some more susceptible to the evil, I don't want to say evils, but the ill effects of a fixed mindset?
00:17:24.820 Well, we have found – sometimes we find that girls, especially the high-achieving girls, are a little more prone to a fixed mindset.
00:17:36.060 But the thing we have found consistently is that a fixed mindset is especially harmful to girls in areas where women are negatively stereotyped.
00:17:51.520 Because a negative stereotype is a fixed mindset label.
00:17:55.480 It says it's fixed and your group doesn't have it.
00:17:59.060 So if the female herself thinks it's fixed, even at some point thinks it's fixed and I have it, if she starts struggling or doing poorly, then the stereotype rears its head and she may start thinking, ooh, maybe they're right. 0.89
00:18:15.840 Maybe we don't have it.
00:18:17.320 And we've seen in our research that females in computer science or math will really start retreating from the field when that happens if they have a fixed mindset perspective on their skills. 1.00
00:18:33.780 But we have shown that if they have a growth mindset perspective or you teach them a growth mindset about math or computer skills, they don't like stereotyping, but they can survive it, they can withstand it, they can thrive.
00:18:52.920 And I guess there's similar research out there that similar things happen with race as well.
00:18:57.980 Yes, exactly.
00:18:59.260 Research has found that having a growth mindset, teaching a growth mindset is especially important for anyone laboring under a negative stereotype.
00:19:12.980 So we have found this with African-American and Hispanic students as well.
00:19:18.240 Having a growth mindset, not thinking that, just rather understanding that your skills can be developed really helps them thrive in the face of academic challenges.
00:19:33.640 Well, Carol, this has been a great conversation.
00:19:35.420 I'm curious if there's any place where people can go to find out more information about your work or perhaps tell their teachers or schools to go check this.
00:19:42.840 Do you have like a program that people can check out to learn more about the growth and fixed mindset?
00:19:47.140 Well, there's my book, Mindset.
00:19:50.300 There's my website, Mindset Online, one word, MindsetOnline.com.
00:19:58.120 There's also a company called Mindset Works that makes an online program for teens that teaches a growth mindset.
00:20:08.200 Fantastic.
00:20:08.820 Well, Carol Dweck, this has been a fascinating conversation.
00:20:11.240 Thanks so much for your time.
00:20:12.080 It's been a pleasure.
00:20:13.840 You're very welcome.
00:20:15.420 My guest today was Carol Dweck.
00:20:16.680 She's the author of the book, Mindset, and you can find that book on Amazon.com.
00:20:20.260 Really great book.
00:20:20.880 Go check it out.
00:20:21.980 Also, you can find out more information about our work at MindsetOnline.com.
00:20:29.340 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:20:32.620 For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at ArtofManliness.com.
00:20:37.040 And if you enjoy the podcast, really appreciate it.
00:20:38.780 If you give us a review on iTunes, tell your friends about us, really appreciate the support.
00:20:42.060 Until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.
00:20:46.680 We'll see you next time.