#151： The Way of the Stoic Warrior
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Summary
Nancy Sherman is a Professor of Philosophy at Georgetown University and the author of two books: Stoic Warriors and After War. She is also a former chairwoman of ethics at the U.S. Naval Academy and served as the Chairwoman of Ethics at the University of Chicago's Naval Academy.
Transcript
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rott mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast so we've talked
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about stoicism on the site it's a philosophy born in ancient greece but really embraced by
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the ancient romans particularly high-class romans like seneca and even emperors like marcus aurelius
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who's one of the most famous stoic philosophers with his meditations but i guess they wrote a book
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talking about how the philosophy of stoicism can help soldiers who men and women who are served
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fighting in our wars uh face the challenges that come with that profession her name is nancy sherman
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she is a professor of philosophy at georgetown university she served as a chair the chairwoman
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of ethics at the u.s naval academy and in her book stoic warriors she takes a look at how different
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facets of stoic philosophy can help soldiers navigate things like losing a partner losing
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a comrade losing an arm dealing with ptsd so we talk some about that we also discuss her most recent
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book after war healing the moral wounds of our soldiers we discuss how not only war how war can
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traumatize someone mentally emotionally physically but also morally and what soldiers can do to heal
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those moral wounds what the military is doing to do that and what civilians can do to help the men and
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women who are fighting for them really fascinating discussion thinking a lot out of it even if you're
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not a soldier uh the stoic principles that we talk about it can definitely help your own life
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so without further ado nancy sherman stoic warriors and after war
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nancy sherman welcome to the show my pleasure so you've written several books uh we're gonna talk
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about a few of them today uh one of your books that i really enjoyed was stoic warriors you look at
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stoic philosophy and how it can inform the military or how the military prepares soldiers for war
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but then also deal with the aftermath of war um before we get into the details about stoicism's
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connection to the military i would love for you to give us a just a brief summary of what stoicism is
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because i think you did such a great job of it in stoic warriors well stoicism is an ancient philosophy
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uh both that the ancient greeks uh after aristotle and the romans embraced and it's in the tradition
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of ancient philosophy of being concerned about the good life and flourishing but they take issue
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these are especially the romans like seneca and marcus aurelius uh and epictetus
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they take issue with the idea that happiness should include exposure to luck good and bad
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and so they develop a philosophy of self-sufficiency and self-reliance essentially um well before um emerson
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and the idea is that your virtue alone should be sufficient for happiness it's actually a
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socratic position from way back um and so that's the idea that cultivating your strengths and uh
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intellectual and uh endurance are a matter of enormous self-discipline and that you can be in a
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certain way invincible is too strong but protected from the outside world infringing on your projects
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okay so it's basically you're not letting the world or all the the chaos the things that are in flux
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disrupt you emotionally mentally it's not even an issue that's right and the emotional part of not
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being disrupted is critical they think that the emotions are disturbances almost um um pathologies
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if you like so uh and the idea some ways that emotions a little the normal ordinary ones of fear
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and of of even love and anger um are ways that you are attached to the world and want the objects of
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those emotions and so they leave you open to disappointment and to the inability to um uh
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to avert or go for the objects of the emotions in the case of fear adequately avert the risk in the
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case of desire um sort of get what you're going for yeah so it's very kind of attachment free in a way
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not buddhist it's not about quiet meditation and getting rid of the self the self is very important
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but it's just should be your reason has has dominion in this world yeah and i guess they'd say a lot of
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the emotions are based on perception right so if you can change how you view an event so it's not the
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thing itself like if you're your child dying that's not the thing that's actually disturbing it's just
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your perception of how you approach it is what causes the disturbance within you that's right so they have
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this view that emotions are a sense to impressions that's the way they put it and a sense to ways that
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you're being perceived upon you might say as you're saying so there and you can say yes or no to those
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a sense and you might be affected by it just sort of subliminally almost you know you you um there's a great
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example they give you're on a you're on a ship and uh someone you're supposed to be a sage a great sage doctor
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but yet you start turning green and so someone turns to you and say i notice you you profess to be a sage
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but you're you're getting very seasick and scared and the response that a stoic will allow well yes
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but that's just a pre-emotion or a proto-emotion it's kind of a physiological response
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but and it's momentary and the true stoic won't indulge it so you know i can sort of say no to it
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without it taking hold and and without the without it really fully coming to fruition and that in a sense
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tracks where we are uh in terms of our understanding of of psychology um kahneman for example the great
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nobel prize winning psychologist has a of the notion and many do that we have two track systems
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emotions those that are sort of fast track and and go without much brain circuitry and very
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immediately responsive and those that are more mediated and so the stoics had that notion early
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on and they think that maybe some are a kind of arousals that you can't control but you won't be
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impugned for having them and in the long term you can maybe control even those better than you do
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right now yeah and it also seemed they were very um uh sort of foretold cognitive behavioral therapy
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to some degree to some degree that's right because they're they view the emotions as not just uh
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impressions but the part of your brain that's doing it in a sense well that we'll put it differently
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the part of the part of you you are just reason they're uh they're uh monolithic in that regard
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and so you uh should be able to control emotions insofar as they are a sense but a sense to that are
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governed by reason and the and and so uh even your perceptual um capacity should be under the control of reason
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so a lot of talking and a lot of uh suasion and um persuasion should be able to change your your
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state what you eventually assenter or um do not give assent to okay i think there's this popular
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conception of stoics as just like not having any emotion whatsoever or not enjoying life and you have
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to to be a stoic sage you have to go off into a cave and cloister yourself off but a lot of the the
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famous stoic thinkers they were like marcus aurelius he was an emperor and he lived a pretty good life
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seneca he was the tutor to nero and he lived a pretty he enjoyed things he enjoyed life probably
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wore nice clothes ate good food um it's like how does how does stoicism allow for us to enjoy the good
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things in life is this where the whole things in different come into play well popular stoicism
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first of all is the kind of notion suck it up and truck on if you're in the military or or or or you
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profess a kind of stoic popular stoic mentality you are just sort of um sucking it up and moving on
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um the stoics were um somewhat um mixed about this the roman stoics were in embracing stoicism embracing a
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very widespread popular view out there you know it was it was a court as you say it was it was the
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the court's philosophy um sanica was the tutor de niro and marcus aurelius was the emperor who wrote
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the meditations which were to himself um at night after during the day a huge golden statue of himself
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would be wheeled out and then wheeled back so he doesn't look like too much of an aesthetic
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um when he's leading uh you know massive uh legions of troops and has gold statues um on his behalf
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that said he is very much trying to distance himself from those things with which he doesn't have full
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control so epictetus um who was once a slave but then goes on to teach philosophy and the time of
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neera will say of those things that you cannot um control you know say that they are indifferent to
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you now the indifference doesn't mean as you were sort of saying before it doesn't mean
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you don't feel anything it means excuse me it means that you're not attached or desirous fully of the
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objects of your interest and that you can have them or not have them in that regard they're indifferent
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not you you don't have an attitude of indifference but they're they're not constitutive of happiness
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that's what's critical they do not add one iota to your happiness if you have things that you um
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that you desire um through the emotions nor do they detract if you get the things that you don't
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want having them is better than not having them but they don't add to the thing that's called
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happiness flourishing thriving okay so you can have lots of money for a moment but if you lose the next
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day you're like meh it's no big deal you kind of develop this notion that uh if my kid dies
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um and i lose the things to which i am really attached then i have to realize that they really
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weren't a part of true genuine happiness now there's going to be cognitive dissonance for most
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of us because you don't get to be a sage ever for most of us and you'll still hold on to worldly
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goods and by that i don't just mean material goods i mean the goods that many of us hold on to love of
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our children whom we prize and uh spouses and partners whom we um adore and whose loss would be to rip
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something precious out of our souls and psyches um but they still think that if you got to the highest
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point of perfection you would somehow realize and embrace the idea that your goodness if you had
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developed virtue was sufficient for your flourishing let's get to this connection to the military
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because you are you're a professor of ethics um how did you get interested in seeing how stoicism
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could inform uh military life well i was at the naval academy in the mid-90s in the wake of a cheating
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scandal and i was asked to design uh a brigade wide ethics course which i i had taught ethics for
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years and so that wasn't a novel task you might say but on the other hand i hadn't talked to
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military folks and not just shipmen but officers so i did the stuff i always do aristotle
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um plato and uh and and uh some contemporary readings when i got to stoicism early in the course
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everyone resonated with it in part they resonated with it because one of their own uh that is uh
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admiral stockdale jim stockdale uh had embraced stoicism wholeheartedly he was a graduate student
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way back uh at stanford and kind of wandered into the philosophy department and someone handed him
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a text of epictetus the little handbook and he has sort of said uh what do i need that for you know
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a martini drinking aviator who plays golf what do you need that for so he put it aside but then he
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found himself on the ticonderoga in the middle of um uh uh on his way to hanoi or excuse me on his way
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to saigon and he um started reading it in the ward room and then one day he's an aviator he was shot
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down and the lessons of epictetus were sort of inscribed in his soul and he said i'm jim stockdale
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leaving leaving the world of technology and entering the world of epictetus and he imbibed it um
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for himself it was a salvation to be able to say no to the things that he wasn't in control of because
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he ended up being in uh prison as a pow for about seven and a half years or so two two and a half in
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solitary with leg irons so he found this uh absolutely empowering and it helped him as the
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um head of the chain of command which there is uh in a in a in a military uh prison where you're pows so
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uh being able to say no i control the show and not you cat eye who was the name of one of his
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um his torturers slash slash uh prison guards was critical to his survival and and so the
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long story is the it made sure the military knew of his story and even if they didn't if they were
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to read epictetus they would find it's kind of good medicine for those who are in situations of
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deprivation and stress yeah this is where the i guess that what's called the stockdale paradox
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comes from uh i think he said that the way he survived was like he you had to be both hopeless
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but also have hope at the same time which is kind of weird
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so going on to this so in stoic warriors you you look at how stoicism can inform different aspects of
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a soldier's life uh throughout their career and we start off with talking about the body so for
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uh the soldier his body is important or because that's that it's trained to be fit to be able to
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do hard work to fight but when you're a soldier there's a good chance that you're probably you might
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lose a limb or become disfigured um and that affects them i mean sometimes i think that affects the
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soldier more than losing the limb it's just the emotional trauma that comes from being disfigured
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from an iud or something like that but the stoics would say like you know the hardcore stoics would
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say well you know it's your body it's something external you shouldn't be disturbed by that um
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is there a stoic approach to our bodies that takes into consideration the role that our our body
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plays in our sense of self well i'm not sure uh they fully do the most exaggerated case is epictetus
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who thinks of your body is just one more encumbrance um sort of like a little donkey that you that is you
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and then you have to carry all these uh things that it needs and so you've got to carry the bucket of
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water and you've got to carry your food and all of the encumbrances and so it's a it's an unpleasant
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image and it's just uh being burdened down um and you're supposed to be able to distance yourself as
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you say from the physical injuries that you might suffer by realizing that the body is somehow not
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really not you the which is uh which is reason that's a hard view to have uh given in fact that
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uh you couldn't survive without a brain and the brain is one of the of the body parts that it may
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not visibly be disfigured but certainly you mentioned ieds ieds can cause enormous rattling and traumatic
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brain injury tbi which leads to other kinds of of um difficulties in being in the world having memory
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having um good cognitive functioning and the like so is there a a a more palatable version of stoicism
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um stoicism is kind of hard to swallow in its full form so i would probably say not really i've always
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advocated to the degree that i find myself attracted to stoicism a kind of moderate stoicism where there
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are blessings and curses and i guess seneca is the person who's always um feeling the tension he says i'm
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the doctor they call themselves doctors who heal um the pathology of of of emotional attachment but i'm
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also the patient meaning i'm sick too i can't fully get rid of my attachment to my body i can't fully
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get rid of my grief that i lost a a dear friend and that i find myself sinking in um in sorrow i'm
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struggling too and so he he's always acknowledging the the way in which the externals touch him and that
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he's trying to limit their impact a bit and i guess that's one way to approach stoicism moderately
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and with um some recognition that if you are trying to minimize uh the the effect of these
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devastating accidents on you that you you go forth with some humility about just how how much you can
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control in the end yeah and that's one of the things i i problems i've had with stoicism is that
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you try to be stoic like you make that your ideal okay i'm just not gonna let this bother me at all
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whether you be you lose a limb or something happens you know even like the the daily trifles
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of life that just annoy you but the problem with is you set that as your ideal and if you don't
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achieve it then you like get angry at yourself because you you feel bad about yourself that you
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didn't achieve that ideal and it sort of spirals downward well that's right i think um perfectionism
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can be a curse and um and to the degree that the stoics set very very perfectionist ideals
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with it can come the psyche that freud would say it produces a harsh superego and anger and and self
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anger um in the form of guilt or in the form of shame um and certainly in the form of disappointment
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and so i'm not sure it's a a wonderfully winning strategy the other thing is you have to um be able
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to uh acknowledge loss in order to go forward to readjust to new body images um to be able to
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do the hard work that will come with um re um physical therapy and and kind of reconstitution of
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yourself if you've lost as some of those i write about in after war have full full half of their
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body you know they've lost the whole bottom of their bodies and they can't go on as they did before
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and so there has to be an adjustment to loss that does involve a grieving process if you're to go
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forward and i'm not sure the stoics are the best uh uh philosophers to help us with that so let's talk
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a little bit about this uh the anger because it seems throughout western history anger has played
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a big role in the ethos of the warrior right if we go back to homer that's what that's what the
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was all about right is how anger fueled this this 10-year war um and it seems like the military uses
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anger to an extent like through boot camp you have the the stereotype of the the yelling drill sergeant
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from full metal jacket and this the like like the things like that but stoics would say well no
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anger is one of those emotions you shouldn't have because it's a disturbance and yada yada so how did
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the stoic philosophers approach war if you know other for for centuries anger was often used as a
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motivator for for battle and for war that's a great question um anger whets the appetite um
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for for for uh for for war and action um it's often said and so what do they replace it with well just
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just sort of be clear anger is this disturbance pathology it uh seneca rails on about it it it it
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makes you livid and it causes enormous havoc inside you and and in the world and part of their railing
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against it is because seneca and others are advising kings who use it a lot and who go to war
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needlessly or or throw their servants in in pools of sharks and the like when they break a crystal or
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do something minor so there's um anger management that's required and so that's part of their interest
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in being able to get rid of anger now anger comes in waves you know some people think you should be
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it it is a good thing and other people think it isn't and anger also is uh of of a different sort
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um it's not clear that you need anger in order to motivate um or incite uh troops to battle what you
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might need is in the case of the drill sergeant a performance of anger just like the orator performs
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certain emotions actors perform certain emotions and they instill fear in their listeners and that
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would get a young boot camp a young person in boot camp to sort of to move in and do better if you
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um incite the wrath of your drill sergeant now it could also be that the the inductee
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you get a real dose of anger that moves them to battle but the problem the stoics will say is that
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you can't shut it off um easily and so you have um rampages and um revenge um killings and um hadithas
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or me lies or the like so um the stoics think that you can actually fight on principle you know you might
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have a sense of what's right and wrong and the sense of justice and that will be able to carry um
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carry you forth in in action and i think it's a real live question as to how useful anger is i mean
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we wouldn't want to get rid of many would argue resentment indignation moral protest moral outcry
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if you don't have those emotional reactions to horrific world world scenes of refugees or
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or innocent victims being killed um what how do you morally engage um but others would say we'll have
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that first proto emotion of it and maybe the stoics will give you that have it so it kind of rouses you
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but then be able to put it into or contain it and use your reason to motivate you forward after that
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use it as a transitional pivot and move on after that and that may be a way to um to get the the best
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of both worlds yeah both light the match but then contain it yeah and speaking of that idea that you
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know the fear of anger is that once you get it going it's hard to turn off particularly in warriors
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i think you mentioned in your book how um oftentimes when men return from war like increases in spousal
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abuse happen yes i mean it's a complicated story uh and to just say well it's um there's anger
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management problems is is too narrow um there's all sorts of reactions to war that have to do with grief
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have to do with the difficulty of civilian reintegration resentment to civilians who don't
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understand was uh confusion about uh or or anger about of the injustice of the war whether it's the
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conduct or the cause or too many collateral killings that were authorized or not enough because then you
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lose your troops the moral mess of war is endless and you're asking thinking soldiers to sort it through
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um and it's got a uh bubble up in frustration as well as a certain kind of um difficulty in adjusting
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to the tempo of life afterwards so just sort of say it's anger and that you can't control the anger
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when you come home i think understates the moral complexity of trying to adjust the emotions of war to
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the emotions of civilian life yeah i want to get more into the uh the moral complexities of after war
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because that's what your most recent book is called after war um but before you mentioned grieving that's
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a problem that soldiers have and the stoic approach it you know there's a story of uh i forgot who gave
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it but like the king who forced a person to eat their own child and the the appropriate stoic response
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was well that was thank you you know like not not be upset about just do it and just calmly eat it and
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then go away that to me seems uh doesn't seem very healthy a very healthy approach i guess the question
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would be is there a way we can look at use moderate stoicism to help soldiers and civilians alike deal with
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the loss of loved ones well that was cambius yeah who who uh uh uh was uh was asked to do that i think
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um there's it's so attractive to be stoic in some ways and i'm one of those persons who's attracted to it
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the world throws up tons of things that we can't control the vicissitudes of fortune are around us all
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the time the limits of our being able to uh influence our children exactly the way we want to or our spouses
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exactly the way we want to or our students or or the political process or the army or the navy or or the course
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of of of of a country's future we're just we're small and we all live in systems and the systems
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collectively exert enormous amount of pressure on us and yet we are asked to hold on to our individual
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consciences and we can't always be whistleblowers and yet we have to do good in a world that's
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extremely flawed with pressures that we can't manage always so why not try to be stoic about some of these
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things now it doesn't mean indifferent but it does mean know the limits of your control and try to
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try to expand the circle of your control as as widely as you can without being a control freak
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because no one likes a control freak who's managing other people's lives or if you're too
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self-managing then you yourself are letting out to the experience of too many things that you can't
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manage that but but you need to feel so i think experimenting with the borders of control is
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the best way to be a mindful stoic um and i you might say at the end of the day you end up an
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aristotelian that's really i think yeah you mentioned in the book how you know you know some
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soldiers right now that the way they deal with grief is maybe they'll they might not cry in front of their
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their troop but when they're in their tent with like their close buddy that's when they'll let it out
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have that moment of grief um so they're like i guess they're mindful of it well yes um there's
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always a performative element in being a leader and especially a leader with all the modeling
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that comes with wearing the uniform and projection to very young troops um who may be less seasoned in
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in battle than you are some more seasoned officers don't always face and often don't face the same
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stresses that that um the enlisted who deploy over and over again do so you're you're you got to be
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there for them and you're sort of trying to show toughness but if we look at the suicide rates recently
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um we know that the modeling doesn't always hold in your most private moments and it's you can't
00:31:00.440
you can't you can't closet off parts of yourself and hope that you will forever not see them they
00:31:07.580
come back to haunt you yeah so in your most recent book after war um you make the case that in a lot
00:31:14.120
of ways we've made clinical the emotional mental and moral wounds that our veterans come home with
00:31:20.920
um first off let's talk about this the moral moral wounds or moral trauma because that's something
00:31:26.280
you don't hear very often when we talk about uh soldiers coming home from war you hear about
00:31:31.000
uh ptsd traumatic brain injuries lost limbs but you never hear about moral trauma how would you describe
00:31:37.860
a what is moral trauma so moral trauma or moral injury is a sense of uh it's a psychological sense
00:31:48.680
that you may have done wrong in a in a serious way uh or been wronged in a serious way or fallen from
00:31:58.540
ideals that you subscribe to in a very serious way and that you um um are hurting there's anguish as a
00:32:08.300
result so it can be accompanied by reactions of enormous um guilt in the case of transgression or if
00:32:15.620
you've been transgressed resentment or in the case of falling short um um uh annihilating shame
00:32:26.240
and uh the it's a psychological injury but ptsd is typical or pts without the d for disorder
00:32:36.860
which some find stigmatizing has clinically at least been understood as a fear response
00:32:43.920
you're responding to a sense of being helpless to a threat a life threat and the treatment has been
00:32:52.680
the kind of deconditioning of that fear and that life threat uh because you're now not in a
00:33:00.160
condition of threat but yet you're reliving the the the stimulus as if you were uh we need to
00:33:08.020
recognize that all sorts of emotions that are that are that cause anguish and enormous pain come home
00:33:16.180
from war or come home from other kinds of assaults and and um and infringements and that they're not
00:33:24.760
all fear-based and so moral injury is a way to um to to talk about that like like ptsd it can be
00:33:30.840
invisible meaning you're not coming home from uh from the battlefield or or or from um uh a trailer
00:33:40.480
in nevada if you're a uh remote um pilot with with a visible loss uh missing something or blinded or
00:33:49.960
or without hearing but you're coming home with um with a psychological injury so how how do we
00:33:57.220
treat is the right word because it sounds again sounds clinical right i mean we know we can do
00:34:02.560
for physical injuries psychological injuries you can go to counseling but what do you do for moral
00:34:08.460
injuries is it well yeah i think you still can um see clinicians mental health professionals um so i
00:34:17.360
don't mean to depathologize um all of the suffering that comes home from war by no means and we're very
00:34:24.420
short on mental health clinicians um in the services and in the va and people need to be able to reach
00:34:30.660
out without stigma but we also have to realize that some of what we do in this country um isn't enough
00:34:38.400
and we could do more um we say thank you for your service um as a quick way of separating the war from
00:34:44.940
the warrior um but it's also kind of pat and a bit superficial and doesn't always lead to a deeper
00:34:51.320
um conversation that builds bridges between military and civilian um we are afraid to ask
00:35:00.820
what people's war experiences were or what people's experiences um when they didn't deploy but are
00:35:07.100
sitting um doing war related work on bases at home because we think we might be prying or it's private
00:35:14.960
or we don't really know what we're talking about you know they're soldiers and they wear uniforms and we
00:35:19.520
don't so we live in different worlds um we're not really so willing to engage in the hard
00:35:26.000
conversation was it a was it an unjust war and we shouldn't have had it and and the awful feelings
00:35:32.300
of futility that many soldiers feel as they think about what's going on with isis in areas they thought
00:35:38.040
they secured in tala fair mosul or fallucia etc so um there's a moral mess that comes home
00:35:48.620
if you've got a thinking brain on you and it's some of it is um some of it you can't process because
00:35:57.020
there's a lot of cognitive dissonance some of it you don't want to process and you want to
00:36:00.120
just medicate with booze or or medicate by driving fast on bases or medicate by being angry and and um
00:36:09.740
being prone to um strike out and and have altercations um but some of it requires actual
00:36:19.240
thinking about the circumstances of war and what you saw and what you did in a safe place with a
00:36:26.860
person you trust and so the opposite of moral injury is moral recovery and moral repair and some of those
00:36:32.320
emotions like guilt um can be relieved a bit by empathy and self-empathy some of them shame by a
00:36:39.900
sense of people hoping in you and you hoping in yourself trust a sense of betrayal that your
00:36:45.780
leadership betrayed you or your country betrayed you by re um restoring bonds of trust somehow and
00:36:52.800
that's civilian work as much as clinical work long answer sorry no that's great no it's i love that
00:36:58.120
um i'm curious if the military is doing anything proactively um you know i know they're working
00:37:05.120
hard to get more clinicians uh for mental health and things like that but um are they doing anything
00:37:09.140
else to i don't know help soldiers prepare for after war and dealing with this the moral complexities
00:37:16.260
of it well there are you uh both researchers and clinicians and um lots of outreach groups that are
00:37:25.720
beginning to recognize that moral injury has a slightly different face than clinically understood
00:37:33.860
ptsd so the the bible of of clinicians for reporting for insurance purposes and for diagnosis which is
00:37:43.220
called the dsm diagnostic and statistic manual we're now up to to um edition five has slightly changed
00:37:51.340
the definition of ptsd so that it includes some factors that or experiences mood experiences i believe
00:37:59.860
they call it they call it of guilt and shame and whatnot recognizing that's not just um responses to fear
00:38:06.340
so that's one thing um that in that bible out there of of diagnosis there's a wider understanding of
00:38:15.340
of of of of trauma and post-traumatic stress trauma um in addition um there are folks that are doing
00:38:24.860
active research on this on a on a on a clinical basis um through the va and in trying to set up
00:38:32.700
treatment protocols uh that would involve um telling your story but not in a sense of trying to
00:38:40.420
decondition the fear but trying to develop compassion for yourself with the buddy that you left behind
00:38:46.860
who whose life you just couldn't save or the child who was caught in a collateral incident would she
00:38:53.220
hold you and condemn you in the very way that you condemn yourself that kind of thing so the conversation
00:39:00.260
is expanding um in clinical circles i think as well as in outreach groups that deal with families that
00:39:08.700
who are who are who are at the core of of um helping a returning service member uh in retreats
00:39:16.440
and the like and you know and i go around talking at various conferences there are many conferences i
00:39:22.220
it it's it's uh a slowly growing um there's so awareness of the complexity of the issues
00:39:31.660
very good well nance before we go where can people learn more about your work
00:39:35.400
uh well after war is a kind of character driven service member driven uh book so i would recommend
00:39:44.380
that um and um it's available uh at all places that sell books including amazon um and it's extremely
00:39:54.340
readable when i say character driven it's it tells the stories of service members who've come home many
00:39:59.360
i've i've known for years who are my students or or or that i've known so that's one place i have a
00:40:05.280
website nancy sherman.com that um has lots of information about the kind of work i do and the
00:40:12.340
kinds of um interests i have um so those are two places all right well fantastic well nancy sherman
00:40:19.460
thank you so much for your time it's been a pleasure thank you so much brett pleasure talking thanks
00:40:24.020
my guest today was nancy sherman she is the author of the book stoic warriors and after war and you can
00:40:28.500
find those both on amazon.com go check them out well that wraps up another edition of the art of
00:40:36.460
manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice make sure to check out the art of manliness website
00:40:40.060
at artofmanliness.com and if you enjoy this show again i'd really appreciate it if you'd give us a
00:40:43.760
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00:40:48.260
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