The Art of Manliness - #157： Primitive Pursuits & Winter Survival

00:00:00.000 rep mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast so winter is coming

00:00:20.960 and if you like to be in the outdoors during the winter time especially one thing you need to start

00:00:26.800 thinking about is what would you do if for some reason you're stuck out in the wild with nothing

00:00:32.540 but your wits right just whatever the clothes on you and the knowledge in your head would you be

00:00:38.240 able to survive the harshness of the cold because a lot of survival books they they they focus on

00:00:44.580 these great survival skills but they kind of gloss over the what you do in when it's snowy wet and cold

00:00:51.080 well my guest today has written a book about wilderness survival but specifically survival

00:00:56.660 during the winter his name is dave hall he is the founder of primitive pursuits it's a youth

00:01:01.900 nature awareness program where they teach primitive skills in over in cornell new york or over in

00:01:08.820 ithaca new york with a cornell university and his latest book is winter in the wilderness a field

00:01:15.460 guide to primitive survival skills and today on the podcast we're discussing what to do or how to

00:01:20.700 survive in the winter how to build shelter with snow how to get water in the snow how to avoid

00:01:25.420 hypothermia how to build fire when all your wood is wet a lot of great practical information i think

00:01:31.700 you're going to like this episode so stay tuned winter of the wilderness with dave hall

00:01:35.380 dave hall welcome to the show thank you so much this is this is really exciting all right so you are a

00:01:48.660 a primitivist wild wilderness survival guy um and you've just come out of the book about winter

00:01:53.820 survival but before we get into the book and some of the principles of surviving in the winter uh let's

00:01:59.600 talk about how did you get involved or get started with wilderness survival and primitive uh skills

00:02:05.900 training sure well you know i think like a lot of people i came up through the ranks in kind of that very

00:02:12.560 typical way um i was an avid boy scout i loved camping i loved canoeing and our scout master really provided

00:02:21.120 those kind of amazing experiences so you know really typically meaning i was into the backpacking all the gear and all

00:02:29.900 those wilderness experiences that kind of gave you a nice adrenaline rush and long story short was that

00:02:35.440 eventually put me in a place where i was professionally leading people mostly youth groups through the

00:02:41.340 adirondacks and you know up until that point all of my you know quote guiding was just like with friends

00:02:48.340 and all that but something shifted in my mind that once i was getting paid i felt i guess really a little

00:02:55.920 dependent on the gear you know i really wasn't able to answer those questions like what if a bear walks

00:03:02.060 off with my food what if the canoe sinks what if the stove falls apart any number of things can and do

00:03:09.380 happen and i had no capability of really answering that you know those questions so that you know kind

00:03:15.940 of serendipitously my first group that i ever led uh through this program called adirondack treks

00:03:21.380 led me to wilderness survival because this young man named will um mentioned the tracker school

00:03:27.660 and that's tom brown's school down in new jersey and it really sounded like a great place for me to

00:03:34.040 you know learn i think what i was was craving you know and so that's where it really all started so i

00:03:40.440 i began uh you know picking up some of tom's books and then i eventually went down and took a class and

00:03:46.360 you know the rest is history kind of thing gotcha so besides doing the the god the the leaded um

00:03:53.400 guides in the outdoors you also have a school that i thought was just it's it sounds awesome when i read

00:03:58.440 about it i was like i gotta send my kids this when they get older uh it's called primitive pursuits

00:04:03.220 uh can you tell us why you started this uh it's a camp or program to teach primitive skills to kids

00:04:09.520 yeah so it was about 1999 i began working for cornell cooperative extension which is

00:04:16.020 the organization that houses 4-h and i've been working with youth through that program for you

00:04:22.300 know roughly 16 years now and as one of my after school programs i thought well let's see

00:04:28.000 how the kids respond to my enthusiasm for learning these kind of really nature-based approaches to

00:04:34.600 wilderness survival and so really very organically primitive pursuits began as an after school

00:04:40.160 program and then through the effort of friends of mine they took the idea um and grew it into this

00:04:46.700 huge program that is much more um in the public eyes now you know so right now it's probably you know

00:04:53.980 the biggest wilderness skills program of its sort in the northeast uh we work with all ages they're

00:05:00.240 talking about doing a residential program for adults um yeah it's pretty amazing and um yeah it's i think

00:05:07.400 you know and i was talking to somebody about this recently you know we when i say we there's there

00:05:12.940 was a core bunch of us at the beginning i think we offered a program that somehow deep down really

00:05:19.160 resonated resonated with people you know we weren't trying to pitch uh in whatever canning sauerkraut

00:05:26.400 which may have value we were really saying hey we want to bring you into a place where you're kind

00:05:32.940 of in touch with nature you're more capable you're more in tune with the natural rhythms you're able to

00:05:39.520 you know do any number of things and it's simply based on a really strong and deep meaningful

00:05:45.440 connection with nature you know kind of minus the gadgets and gear so yeah what's been the what's the

00:05:52.100 response to kids who are you know they're like you know the kids who are glued to their screens

00:05:57.440 i mean they can't have that stuff out there i mean what's been their response they is there are there

00:06:02.040 sort of like the the withdrawals at first and they love it or they love it just from the get-go

00:06:06.120 i would say overwhelmingly the response is positive you know i mean we certainly know that kids today

00:06:14.400 are plugged in way more than they should be and they have a tough time managing the technology

00:06:20.860 that's offered to them but when we get them outside there's something so different so um so

00:06:27.700 raw and pure and fun that you know they just can't help but feel excited about what once they get

00:06:35.560 involved with the program you know what i mean yeah yeah so it's yeah it's a win-win for everybody

00:06:41.100 because we're having fun teaching we're learning along with them a lot of time and uh yeah and parents

00:06:46.740 just come back with amazing comments and it's it's a yeah it's just a wonderful program awesome

00:06:52.760 what i mean what are your tips for parents who you know they they don't live near cornell

00:06:57.020 um like me like i read about this i'm like man that's really far it's going to take you know three

00:07:03.140 planes to get over there um but if they want the same sort of thing for their their kids like what

00:07:08.220 can they do uh to replicate something like primitive pursuits in their own hometown sure well you know i have to

00:07:15.540 say that it's it's not rocket science in the sense that i think if you're honest with the kids about

00:07:22.200 where your own skill levels are at and you treat it as like let's learn and do this together you don't

00:07:28.660 have to necessarily be an expert it certainly helps to have kind of at least a foundation basic

00:07:33.880 survival priorities so you don't get yourself in trouble but at the same time you can be like you know

00:07:39.560 pick up one of the good books um tom brown's book my book a lot of good stuff out there and just start

00:07:46.140 learning together and have fun and don't make it uh try to be anti you know school like classroom

00:07:52.520 have it be fun making it adventure and so you know i think and and leave room for kids to have

00:07:58.140 unstructured just um creative time where they feel like they're directing themselves you know so even if

00:08:04.120 you're not an expert per se at these skills it doesn't mean that you can't start on that path

00:08:09.940 you know yeah yeah that's awesome great advice okay so talk about your book uh winter in the

00:08:15.420 wilderness um because i've read a lot of survival books but a lot of them i feel like they assume

00:08:21.560 that you're going to be like in the woods in the summer or spring or fall like where there's something

00:08:27.200 inclement mother but you don't have to deal with the very extreme cold um so i'm curious what's the

00:08:33.600 biggest mistake people typically make whenever they approach survival in the winter that perhaps

00:08:40.720 you know it wouldn't be a problem if it was summertime or springtime but becomes a problem if it's snowy and

00:08:46.960 it's cold yeah well you know really i think people don't have kind of a raw understanding of the

00:08:55.440 potential of what can go wrong you know it can right you're you're exactly right the implications

00:09:01.760 of of um a summer situation don't compare to anything that the winter may throw at you right

00:09:09.600 and simply not anticipating the worst case scenarios and and also not understanding what your body's

00:09:16.040 priorities are gets people into trouble they don't know where to direct their energy so that they can

00:09:20.680 actually take care of themselves you know there there was that story um it was in 2006 the james

00:09:27.780 kim story where um he and his family got stuck up on some mountain road in oregon and they they

00:09:35.380 basically sat it out for a few days they got stuck in the snow and uh you know it wasn't an suv type

00:09:40.780 it was a smaller car but when the food and uh the gas ran out of the car mr kim left presumably to

00:09:48.900 head back down to the main road from where they came but it was hypothermia that did him in he got

00:09:55.380 cold he didn't have an inherent respect and understanding of how to deal with that and what

00:10:00.100 could happen if he didn't do things right and he was found you know within the week he had gotten off

00:10:06.640 trails circled around and you know he hadn't taken care of himself or didn't know how and hypothermia got

00:10:13.480 the best of him so in his case it was a very noticeable effort um but he just didn't know

00:10:18.520 how to deal with it you know yeah so in the winter i mean your top priority should be staying warm right

00:10:25.040 yes number one is staying warm and if you think about it there are so many different things that

00:10:30.580 you can do to help maintain your warmth you know whether it's making sure you're dressed right

00:10:35.600 making sure you're full of good calories making sure you're you know maybe you're building a shelter

00:10:40.080 or a fire any number of things can be done that can help to preserve and insulate yourself

00:10:46.240 gotcha we'll get into some specifics about that but let's talk about hypothermia because it's one

00:10:50.480 of those things people talk about a lot but when i was reading your book i was like i don't i don't

00:10:54.460 think i knew what the symptoms of hypothermia were like if it was happening to me i don't know if

00:10:59.760 that it would be happening to me so what are the symptoms of hypothermia that you know that okay

00:11:03.980 i need to take action now that's right you know and and it's really this is the thing where like

00:11:10.560 being in tune with your body and knowing you know your body's giving you clues as to something's

00:11:15.980 happening and the first clue and this is not like a panic situation but the first clue that you're

00:11:20.520 losing core temperature is you're simply shivering right that's your body's effort it's it's literally

00:11:25.760 vibrating to try to warm itself up but that it's not a panic situation but that is that is your moment

00:11:31.720 to act because as soon as you go into a deeper level of hypothermia you may utterly be useless

00:11:38.060 to yourself you know and and the symptoms are all over the place you might have slurred speech your

00:11:42.560 body may go rigid you may stumble but what happens and it's happened to me once i'm sort of glad in a

00:11:49.380 way so i can talk about it from firsthand experience is that you know after you shiver you can literally

00:11:56.140 go rigid meaning you stop shivering you kind of get stiff and your brain goes numb

00:12:01.460 and that's why you hear stories about hikers or hunters and they they drop their clothing they

00:12:07.120 don't act rationally right and it's just a downward spiral so really the thing to for most people to

00:12:14.240 understand is like okay i'm shivering it's time to improve my situation you know because after that

00:12:20.020 the symptoms are kind of interesting to know but they may be moot for the actual survivalist in the

00:12:25.480 thick of things yeah and so treating it it's just it's getting warm right like getting dry and warm

00:12:30.340 yes right it might mean putting on an extra layer it might be getting out of damp things and getting

00:12:36.140 into warm things do jumping jacks for a little while it's energy intensive but it might be what

00:12:40.960 you need for that moment make a fire make some hot tea uh any number of things get out of the wind

00:12:47.180 don't sit on the snow that kind of anything sensible like that you know yeah i thought one of the

00:12:51.160 interesting tips was uh don't stay in valleys because that's where the cold air sinks right right

00:12:56.840 yep yep i never would have thought of that get up off the floor of uh you know the valley just even

00:13:02.500 a little and you'll feel it you'll feel it when you get up above it it's really interesting interesting

00:13:06.440 and what about i mean is frostbite i mean what's worse frostbite or hypothermia like should you be

00:13:10.680 more worried about hypothermia i'm assuming definitely yeah like frostbite it's simply not simply it's

00:13:16.820 certainly something you want to avoid but that's like frozen skin frozen body parts but it doesn't

00:13:22.080 necessarily necessarily imply that you have lost core temperature right you certainly don't want to

00:13:27.200 lose fingers and nose pieces but it's hypothermia that is more um more dangerous so if uh keeping

00:13:34.720 your core body temperature up is the top priority uh what are what's your suggestions for dressing

00:13:41.080 to maximize survival in the weather because like you know i get the catalogs for the all you know the

00:13:46.100 outdoor mag stuff and i subscribe to outdoor magazine i see all these cool like synthetic fabrics

00:13:51.660 and awesome ski jackets and coats um are those necessarily the best thing to have uh when you're

00:13:58.200 dressing for the cold sure so the first thing to do is avoid cotton at all costs okay because what

00:14:05.280 happens is cotton when it gets wet it's it actually sucks heat away from you so dress in layers layers of

00:14:13.080 synthetics and wools are the best um i tend to go with wools a lot because you know this whole survival

00:14:20.100 game implies that i'm going to be around fire quite a bit and synthetics have a very low melting point

00:14:25.800 so you'll end up with you know garments that end up with you know little pock marks all over them

00:14:30.680 because i've gotten melted and you know wool is durable and it's quiet and it tends to be in earthy

00:14:37.480 tones um you know i also do you know i'm not like saying don't use the gore-tex and that stuff i do use

00:14:43.700 you know good gore-tex shell but what layers does is it gives you the ability to take off things to

00:14:51.020 regulate your body heat because this may seem funny but if you're being active you actually want to stay

00:14:57.060 on the cool side because you don't want to sweat from the inside out and get your clothes wet right

00:15:01.640 and because once you cool down you can literally have ice build up between your layers you know it's

00:15:07.140 one thing if you're out ice fishing and you want to put on the biggest down park that you can find it

00:15:11.340 because you know you're just going to be sedentary but really for most of us um working with layers

00:15:18.420 of clothes is a much better option you know i rarely wear you know a big heavy jacket i don't even

00:15:24.640 think i own one you know the closest thing i have is like a heavy down jacket type thing sweater

00:15:30.440 okay yeah what about footwear yeah and yeah i was going to say so most of these things like in terms

00:15:36.900 of clothing you don't necessarily have to spend a lot of money on you know you can go to the

00:15:40.880 thrift shop you can go to secondhand store but the two places where i don't skip it skimp is footwear

00:15:47.160 and gloves um and in terms of footwear i want you know people to know like if you're uncomfortable

00:15:53.600 in your feet that's not only dangerous but it's just kind of going to make for a really

00:15:58.240 lousy experience and so i go with um boots that are built to withstand you know negative 20 negative 30

00:16:05.840 degrees they have to have removable liners because that enables you to dry them out your feet tend to

00:16:11.540 perspire quite a little bit you know and and make sure they're well built you know invest a little

00:16:16.240 bit of money um i have a pair of lacrosse icemans that i've literally been using for 25 years and they

00:16:22.660 are still going strong you know which is an amazing feat you know and then for gloves because you're

00:16:28.280 working um you know breaking branches and you're moving a lot of material um i find that your typical

00:16:34.720 high-end you know rei or north face type gloves even though they're great for skiing and a lot of

00:16:40.620 things they don't hold up to like the the abuse that you're going to be putting them through so i i go

00:16:46.000 with leather waxed leather mittens with um insulated leather glove inside of them and that double layering

00:16:52.120 system works well awesome hold up all right so yeah they don't have some like yep very good so

00:16:57.180 bottom line cotton is rotten yes that's right cotton kills cotton kills okay yep um so let's talk about

00:17:04.480 okay so in keeping with this idea of priority being keeping warm how do you build a fire in the snow

00:17:11.300 right because like i that's the thing like whenever i go camping i get so uh uh like the fire is the one

00:17:18.280 thing i take a lot of pride in and it's easy when it's warm and dry and everything's perfect but when

00:17:24.000 it's wet that's where i'm like man how do you get a fire going when everything is wet right and you

00:17:31.160 know you're exactly right when you need fire the most is when it's hardest to make right and let's let's

00:17:36.680 even one up that what is like the worst case scenario in terms of winter survival it's not when there's

00:17:42.580 nice fluffy deep snow it's actually when the weather warms up a bit it's hovering somewhere

00:17:48.120 around freezing and it starts to rain and everything gets soaked right that is like your worst case

00:17:53.100 scenario and that is probably going to be a better option for fire rather than say a snow shelter

00:17:58.560 right so what do you do everything is literally soaked um you know there's nothing on the ground

00:18:03.980 that's useful and so i came up with this little system called the fire burrito and if you and this

00:18:10.260 is where you know as a you know a survivalist or somebody's interested in these skills you have to start

00:18:15.240 opening your eyes and looking for your resources and the the core of the fire burrito is what i

00:18:22.700 call punky wood you have to find trees that are in a state of rot that offer you material that's kind

00:18:28.900 of dry spongy it will take a flame or an ember from a friction set really well and then you put that

00:18:36.360 on a slab of bark and you get it going put twigs on top another lid of bark and that will light

00:18:43.760 itself and you get to the dry stuff by finding the right trees and pulling away all of the wet stuff

00:18:50.080 all of the you know the stuff that's been precipitated on and it's an amazing little um device um

00:18:56.100 yeah you can direct people to the website and they can see a video of that but yeah literally a

00:19:01.680 lifesaver it's amazing it's awesome very potent all right yeah i went out

00:19:05.640 oh god no i was gonna say we'll put a link to it for sure yeah well i um so it was a day after

00:19:12.380 hurricane sandy came through this area um there was no school the next day and i ended up in the

00:19:17.400 state forest near my house everything is just soaked saturated and i without really thinking about it

00:19:24.480 found a proper tree created a fire burrito and actually had trouble putting that fire out in

00:19:29.700 an environment that had just been you know dumped on it's a very potent way yeah but

00:19:35.540 you know i do have to say that making fire and being so good at that skill is one of the most

00:19:42.620 important you know skills that anybody can master because when there aren't other options fire is going

00:19:49.800 to save your butt yeah and that's by actually even though i'm a big advocate of the primitive

00:19:53.480 always carry at least a couple modern methods uh to light your fire you know don't don't mess

00:19:59.860 around in the winter yeah and that always carry that's a skill that you can practice at home like

00:20:05.280 you don't have to necessarily be out camping to practice making fires right exactly yep yep yeah i i

00:20:13.060 even though i'm really good at this stuff i am always kind of monkeying with different flammable

00:20:18.040 materials and trying to make fires in new ways or challenging myself you know if if we've had a

00:20:24.280 weather event and going out and just proving to myself yet again that i can do it you know it's

00:20:28.720 kind of staying on top of things that way yep all right so uh along this line keeping warm shelter

00:20:34.760 uh so like this is the usually the priorities is like isn't it like fire shelter yeah you know

00:20:40.700 in the book how we arranged it was you know we certainly talked about clothing but we decided to put

00:20:46.640 fire at first before shelter and simply for the reason of helping people understand those

00:20:53.420 really bad worst case scenario situations you know because they can happen anytime and even though

00:20:59.620 i'm in new york state which most people think of as a very wintry state um it hasn't been like that

00:21:05.720 in the last 10 years you know we're getting weather events that are very fickle some one day it's above

00:21:11.740 freezing the next day it's not one day it's snowing the next day it's raining and so these these

00:21:16.340 situations that are really horrific are becoming more common in my opinion you know so yeah so what we did

00:21:23.260 was clothing fire and then we got into shelter all right so let's talk about building shelters uh with

00:21:28.940 the snow uh so most people when they think about snow shelters they'll probably think like the igloo

00:21:33.980 right the blocks of snow but you actually talk about uh the just like a big mound of snow and then

00:21:40.140 you hollow it out what's the name of that system again sure that's a quincy and that's kind of a

00:21:44.800 classic north country shelter and it really is an amazing thing um you know if you can imagine that kind

00:21:50.680 of ideal postcard snow it's light and fluffy and it doesn't make good snowballs because it's too cold

00:21:58.060 out what do you do with that right and so what's interesting is that snow of that quality when it

00:22:03.620 is moved either by you know a person or by nature meaning it drifts will become something solid that

00:22:10.400 can be hollowed out and that to me is just one of the most amazing things you know what was once just

00:22:15.740 kind of useless fluff is now serving as a sanctuary to me you know and um and that's a fun one and

00:22:22.380 we've made adaptations from that that's certainly not my favorite shelter but it's it's a they're all

00:22:27.100 good to know because there's a time and a place where you know one of the one or another one will be

00:22:31.880 the best choice um yeah but the quincy is something that i've played with quite a bit and improved upon

00:22:37.320 as well and this is the purpose of a snowshell is it just to keep you away out of the wind or does it

00:22:41.920 actually get a little warm in there oh yeah no it's it's incredibly valuable when i when i say the

00:22:47.900 word sanctuary it is a true sanctuary most um snow shelters actually i'm going to say all snow shelters

00:22:54.620 if built properly um are going to heat up simply from your body heat to about 40 degrees despite

00:23:00.720 temperature outside so when we were finishing up the book my co-author john who was really helping me

00:23:07.360 write the book he wasn't in as you know well versed at these actual skills and he wanted to go out and

00:23:13.760 experience this you know and write about it in the conclusion and so that particular night there was a

00:23:19.520 friend who joined us um it was about single digits i think it got as low as three degrees and we slept

00:23:25.740 out without sleeping bags or blankets you know and it's 40 degrees inside so that's you know over a 35

00:23:32.120 degree difference if it's 20 below out the difference is going to be even greater so it's not

00:23:38.160 only relatively warm it's quiet it's it's cozy it's it's just a wonderful place to be you know and if

00:23:47.040 you think about the implications of not being there you could be dead right not to put a too grim a place

00:23:54.180 a face on it but the truth is that it could mean the difference between life and death which isn't

00:24:00.420 always the angle i'm trying to use when i'm teaching but in reality that's what it can do for

00:24:06.160 you yeah what what about instances where uh you don't have much snow what is a good go-to shelter to

00:24:13.900 stay warm sure well you know so if you're asking like what do you do when there's no snow there's

00:24:21.140 really a lot of options you know you can utilize fire um use fire in front of a lean-to or a double

00:24:26.620 lean-to or four lean-to's together are basically a shelter um if you don't have fire you can use

00:24:32.900 something like either a leaf crib or a debris hut and both of those use basically huge amounts of

00:24:38.640 leaf or forest debris to insulate you right and they're just two different ways to accomplish that

00:24:44.500 goal um you know one of the things that we do often is try to emulate animals that can help us in

00:24:51.360 some way deer are not for example a very good helper in terms of shelter because they can lie

00:24:57.080 there and they have these beautifully dense hollow haired bodies you know covered in these hollow hairs

00:25:02.140 but a mouse or a squirrel can help us and so when we utilize leaf litter or grasses to help insulate

00:25:08.940 ourselves we're really taking a lesson from you know those animals and uh yeah that's so that's

00:25:13.940 something you can do so either with or without fire uh you know the debris hut or a leaf crib is

00:25:19.160 something you can do it doesn't require any extra heat it's heated by yourself you're you're you're

00:25:25.160 the internal flame the leaf crib is just it's just a box basically when you just pile in leaves yeah

00:25:30.840 yeah yeah simply either um making some sort of like kind of log cabin type cribbing or utilizing the

00:25:38.620 landscape so that you have a container because if you don't you make a big pile of leaves

00:25:42.920 essentially your your leaf pile will disperse in the night as you move about

00:25:46.920 and so that's why you need some sort of container and incredibly effective really effective okay

00:25:52.600 yeah well let's talk about so uh you know we're keeping warm we've got shelter uh the next priority

00:25:59.840 is water right because you can a lot of people assume it's food because but you can actually go

00:26:04.620 weeks without food correct mm-hmm yeah and that's where people get themselves in trouble they you know

00:26:10.500 we're we're in such a food spoiled nation that they think oh my gosh where am i going to get my next meal

00:26:14.840 no no calm down yes you will want food as soon as you can get it but yeah you're correct

00:26:19.960 after maintaining your core temperature you do want to worry about water in a big way okay but you

00:26:26.780 know and and yeah i was gonna say water i was gonna say water in the winter poses a challenge though

00:26:31.400 right it does yes yep yeah and the challenges are really twofold for one you don't want to cool

00:26:38.840 your body's temperature and take away precious calories by ingesting cold or frozen water right

00:26:45.720 the other issue is if you do find running water it will likely need to be boiled to make it safe

00:26:51.560 so in either case you want to heat your water if it's questionable water you want to boil it

00:26:56.680 and if it's you know something that's coming out of the ground and you feel like you found a reliable

00:27:01.340 spring it still makes sense to warm it up because otherwise you're going to lose some calories just to

00:27:07.020 getting it up to body temperature right and that brings in you know an interesting challenge right

00:27:11.900 how do you make a container when you're out there presumably with nothing to boil hold and boil water

00:27:18.020 you know and how do you do that um so there's two methods that we share one of them is a simple

00:27:25.900 technology called cold burning you know you can imagine i think most people have heard of the idea of

00:27:31.740 burning out a log to make a canoe you know you're basically taking embers and hollowing out a

00:27:36.940 log to make some sort of a vessel so of course a bowl is a you know theoretically a small

00:27:42.140 burned out canoe type thing and and that doesn't take much other than the use of fire

00:27:47.660 the other method that we share and this is only available where the eastern white pine is is growing

00:27:53.720 is you can literally take smooth sections of a branch from what eastern white pine

00:28:00.720 um and utilizing heat from a fire get it to peel off in like a big kind of leathery sheet and those

00:28:07.220 corners can be pinned to make a seamless um container that will hold water and you can boil it

00:28:13.000 of course the issue is is then hopefully it'll become obvious to your to your listeners as well

00:28:17.800 how do you utilize something that basically would and boil water in it right yeah and and the answer is

00:28:24.860 by using heated stones that are then taken out of the fire and put into your vessel and then you're

00:28:30.080 using heat in the in the in the water rather than the typical way that we're at laws used to heating

00:28:35.800 water yeah interesting very clever yeah yeah so uh eating snow is a no-no is something you don't want

00:28:41.920 to do like last resort yeah i mean you know if you're just out for the day and you've got an infinite

00:28:47.240 amount of trail mix it's not going to hurt you but if you're really in a situation um yeah don't

00:28:53.860 don't start wasting precious calories by eating snow gotcha okay by the spring or yeah yeah um any

00:29:01.380 are there any other skills you think are really important to know uh particularly for surviving in

00:29:06.720 the winter well you know for me i'm always asking what if questions and i think it's shelter really does

00:29:16.120 epitomize um winter survival to me and so getting out there and practicing these safe ways is

00:29:23.260 is really going to be crucial to anybody who starts to take this topic seriously um there's lots of

00:29:30.340 variety of snow out there some of it is going to be more suitable for this shelter and there's other

00:29:35.820 varieties that are going to be more suitable for that type of shelter and so really you know starting

00:29:40.960 to become more aware and realize that there's lots of variety snow you know we tend to use descriptors

00:29:50.040 when we talk about snow you know like it's sugary it's powdery it's sleet whatever and you have to

00:29:55.640 find out what's going to work for you in any given situation you know for example the igloo is not

00:30:01.280 something that i have a lot of experience with because i don't live up on the tundra where there's

00:30:05.980 old windswept snow we get all kinds of the other stuff in central new york and that sort of led

00:30:12.200 you know been actually a great asset to learning um because we've just had to face it all you know

00:30:19.800 what i mean so you know in terms of just a particular skill i don't think there's anything

00:30:24.740 other than saying to your listeners practice and make it real for yourself it's one thing to

00:30:30.740 read a book or take a class but when when it really starts to you know get into your blood is when you

00:30:36.740 practiced it and practice safely i should add you know yeah and do you all do you keep the

00:30:41.800 primitive pursuits classes going throughout the winter oh sure yeah that's actually like

00:30:47.000 yeah probably obviously my favorite time of year yeah i love it and we every year we host um you know

00:30:53.360 an overnight or two when we uh we go out in the winter and whether there's snow or not we do it

00:30:58.480 and uh last year it was around new year's we didn't have snow so we we kind of had a hodgepodge of

00:31:04.660 camping you know situations out there with sleeping bags but this year um we're gonna we're gonna wait a

00:31:10.620 little later when the snow is a little more reliable and we're gonna go out and snow cave it

00:31:14.480 um with a bunch of kids yep very cool well hey dave where can people learn more about your work

00:31:19.360 sure um so my website is davehallprimitive.com and i should also say that i'm going to be running

00:31:27.620 um an adult program this january with on datra adventures so if anybody's interested in that they

00:31:33.620 can go to my website and uh and link up to on datra very cool well dave hall thank you so much for

00:31:39.700 your time it's been a pleasure all right sounds great i guess it was dave hall he's the author of

00:31:44.940 the book winter in the wilderness and you can find that on amazon.com also check out his website

00:31:50.400 primitive pursuits.com to learn more about his primitive pursuits program in ithaca new york

00:31:55.340 well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice

00:32:02.720 make sure to check out the art of manliness website at art of manliness.com and if you enjoy

00:32:06.600 this podcast as always i'd really appreciate it if you'd give us a review on itunes or stitcher

00:32:10.380 uh really help spread the word about the show as always thank you again for your continued support

00:32:15.880 and until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay manly

00:32:19.080 you

00:32:31.960 you

00:32:36.460 you

The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

#157： Primitive Pursuits & Winter Survival

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