The Art of Manliness - #162： Digital Manners & Etiquette For the Modern Man With Daniel Post Senning

00:00:00.000 right mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast we've probably

00:00:18.780 all heard of emily post she wrote an etiquette book all the way back in the 1920s and her work 0.54

00:00:24.980 still continues today in her family there's a thing called the emily post institute and family

00:00:29.920 members are continuing the work of emily post of encouraging good etiquette and manners and today

00:00:34.700 on the show i have emily post's great great grandson daniel post sinning to discuss manners for men

00:00:41.500 etiquette and specifically digital etiquette you know have the etiquette of smartphones email text

00:00:48.160 it's such a new aspect of our lives that it's it's often confusing about what's the proper protocol

00:00:53.940 for these different modes of communication so really fascinating discussion we also discuss

00:00:59.300 thank you notes which is timely for the holidays when you should write one how do you manage thank

00:01:04.300 you cards or handwritten thank you cards with uh emails when you're engaging someone on email like

00:01:09.340 do you is you saying someone on email do you send them a card still we're going to answer that

00:01:13.780 question uh so without further ado daniel post sinning and digital etiquette

00:01:18.740 daniel post sinning welcome to the show thanks so much for having me it's a truly an honor and a

00:01:32.700 privilege to be here well thank you so much so you uh work for the emily post institute

00:01:37.720 and in your name is post uh so start off this so you you joined the family business

00:01:43.640 i'm assuming i i sure did a little background um a lot of people think emily post is still alive and

00:01:50.580 about 10 years older than they are and that that's not true she was my great great grandmother she wrote

00:01:55.320 her first book of etiquette in 1922 um founded the institute with her son in the late 40s and

00:02:02.040 uh the business has been running ever since we currently uh are publishing the 18th edition of

00:02:07.820 emily post etiquette working on the 19th it's been in print ever since that first edition in 1922

00:02:12.420 wow that's fantastic it continues on so i'm sure everyone's come across or maybe flip through

00:02:18.020 uh emily's post book on etiquette but i think etiquette and manners for a lot of men gets a bad rap

00:02:25.440 because i think when they think etiquette and manners they think sort of like stuffy rules and

00:02:29.800 protocols like you know stick your pinky out when you're drinking your tea or something like that

00:02:34.720 and then it's old-fashioned and not really relevant in the modern day um but i think people would be

00:02:40.360 surprised when they actually read the content you all put out you don't present etiquette that way so

00:02:46.520 how do you all define etiquette and manners over there at the emily post institute sure we've got a

00:02:52.680 formula that works really well for us i promise this is the end of the math for today but we say

00:02:57.780 etiquette is a combination or equals manners plus principles and i think that the manners part of

00:03:03.500 that equation is what a lot of people think about when they think etiquette and um things like saying

00:03:08.380 please or thank you or holding a door for someone or offering your chair to someone or traditional

00:03:13.800 courtesies around ladies going first um those are what those are manners they're the specific

00:03:20.360 expectations we have of each other in a given social situation and they they change they change over

00:03:25.360 time they vary from one household to another one country to another one company to another

00:03:31.320 um the principles are the second part of the equation you don't have etiquette without manners

00:03:35.920 and principles and principles are the the timeless and eternal guidelines values principles that we use

00:03:43.220 to to guide us when we don't know the manner in a given situation or when we're dealing with

00:03:47.780 difficult relationship situations and there isn't a particular manner that applies and i think it's the

00:03:52.700 framework of of having a principles approach to etiquette that's really served the emily post

00:03:57.420 institute for five generations and the principles that we've identified as the the bedrock or the

00:04:02.640 foundation for all good etiquette are consideration respect and honesty so if you're thinking about

00:04:07.860 other people if you're using your consideration if you're aware of who's impacted that's really

00:04:12.860 important that if you're respectful if you recognize the value and worth of others as well as yourself

00:04:17.860 and the things around you you're you're at that next level of of of good shape and then the final

00:04:23.980 principle that we think is really important is honesty that you've got to operate from a place of sincerity

00:04:28.940 and integrity and um if you've got those three things working for you whether you know the particular

00:04:35.540 manner or not or whether you're trying to assess whether a manner that you grew up with is still useful or

00:04:41.140 important uh i think i think that having that that principles idea as part of the etiquette equation

00:04:48.400 really helps keep etiquette relevant yeah yeah and i guess growing up i heard it was like you know just

00:04:54.860 make the other person feel comfortable and welcome if you do that you're not you're probably going to be

00:04:59.240 okay absolutely thinking about other people i when i do uh business etiquette trainings or appearances i

00:05:06.780 often open up when i've when i've got a room that's small enough with a word association game with the

00:05:10.940 word etiquette and i hear everything from the audience and oftentimes i hear well this is the

00:05:15.600 golden rule right this is treat other people the way you would want to be treated or do unto others

00:05:19.680 as you would have them do unto you and that's absolutely part of the equation and i i like to

00:05:23.980 share something i learned recently which is the platinum rule and it's popular in training circles

00:05:28.200 the evolution of the golden rule and it's the idea that in an increasingly diverse and complex world

00:05:33.820 it's not enough to just go around and apply your standards to everyone that you meet

00:05:37.900 that you also have to be willing to treat other people the way they would want to be treated

00:05:41.820 and you end up with this this um balancing act the art of etiquette really being an awareness of the

00:05:47.880 golden rule and the platinum rule that it's important to know your standards and know your

00:05:51.860 values but it's also important to really be able to think about where other people are coming from and

00:05:56.080 how they're going to perceive something and maybe they're even operating from a slightly

00:05:59.800 different set of core principles maybe not i i tend to think that that a lot of those those core

00:06:04.920 principles translate culturally but um having a little bit of the platinum rule a little a small

00:06:09.740 dosage of platinum to go with your gold i think is really important yeah i like how you said art of

00:06:14.460 etiquette because i think yeah a lot of people get this idea that etiquette is just the manners like

00:06:18.900 very formally there's a formula to it there's rules um but there's an art to it it's not a science you

00:06:24.340 have to sort of use your judgment and different situations and you i guess you learn as you do

00:06:29.720 it's to me it's that delicious gray area it's that territory where maybe that rude behavior isn't

00:06:36.940 so egregious that it's illegal or going to get you fired but oftentimes it's perceived in a negative

00:06:42.940 way and and the same thing with good etiquette or positive etiquette and because it is in that that

00:06:49.080 gray territory where sometimes it's not exactly clear um there is an art to it one of my favorite

00:06:54.460 examples is the if you think about the honesty principle there's a difference between a harsh

00:06:59.780 truth and a kind or benevolent truth if you were to ask me what i think of your new sweater and i

00:07:04.580 think it's atrocious and i tell you that that might be a really hurtful truth and i could also say

00:07:09.160 something like oh it's going to keep you warm all winter or aren't you happy your grandmother made

00:07:14.080 that for you i can really see the love in it there there are there are more artful truths that you can

00:07:18.800 find that maybe are less hurtful and to me that's the fun of the work that i get to do

00:07:23.100 so i mean what is i mean what's the benefit i mean how do you sell etiquette to uh people who are

00:07:28.720 still dubious about it i mean how can being attentive to it and learning some manners

00:07:34.000 help people in their business life their personal life etc sure for me and our approach here at emily

00:07:41.680 post is that etiquette skills are relationship skills that this is all about um building good

00:07:47.480 relationships improving the quality of relationships building and sustaining successful relationships

00:07:52.200 um etiquette is is social skills um that's that's one approach that's really important

00:07:58.320 to me the other lens that i love to share is that the more you can approach this material through

00:08:03.520 the lens of opportunity not obligation the better off you're going to be etiquette's an incredibly

00:08:08.140 powerful tool when used as a tool for self-assessment um the thank you note police are not going to come

00:08:13.880 take you away if you don't write a thank you note at all this holiday season they don't exist they're

00:08:18.720 not going to come get you at well i'm a few grandmothers aside yes it is uh on on the flip

00:08:27.220 side of that equation i do intern hiring at emily post and we have on our website a seven point

00:08:31.820 checklist for how to how to handle uh an in-person interview and the seventh item on the checklist is

00:08:37.980 if someone's taken the time to interview you send them a handwritten thank you note i would ask you

00:08:42.100 what percentage of people do you think send me a handwritten thank you note after an interview

00:08:45.720 process the answer is about 30 percent i think that's high here because we've got a website that

00:08:51.520 tells people to do it um if i've got two candidates for two positions it's probably not going to be a

00:08:58.200 differentiator but if i've got four candidates for two positions it can absolutely make the difference

00:09:02.980 and an increasingly casual um an informal world gives us opportunities for distinction by making

00:09:10.540 the choice to make the medium part of the message to really invest in the relationship skills to say

00:09:16.580 to yourself you know i'm going to take the extra time i'm going to write this person the only handwritten

00:09:20.580 note they're going to get all year uh you really you give yourself an opportunity to make a different

00:09:25.900 kind of impression so that that lens of opportunity i think is really important the the thing that i think

00:09:31.880 bothers people about etiquette is when it's used as a tool of judgment or a tool to exclude or isolate

00:09:37.280 people and to me that's so far from the heart of good etiquette you talked about how etiquette's all

00:09:42.500 about making other people feel comfortable and at ease and again i think that you're you're best able

00:09:48.360 to use it to do that when you're using it as a tool to assess yourself and your own actions and how you

00:09:53.040 can be better so um you've written a book about digital etiquette and we're going to get into that a

00:09:57.860 little bit but before we get there you mentioned how manners have changed over time um and i'm sure

00:10:03.800 they've the you've had to put out more editions of emily's post book because things have changed

00:10:09.440 so i'm curious what are some of the big things that have changed that people might think are still

00:10:14.620 it's a hard and fast rule but there's actually a little more flexibility uh there that there than

00:10:20.780 there wasn't than there was before oh what are the surprising changes yeah the surprising yeah how

00:10:30.820 surprising changes so the the the broad trend is that the etiquette that change the fastest are the

00:10:38.320 ones that um that exist around new technology and oftentimes around communication okay so the the

00:10:46.460 in emily's original 1922 edition there were elaborate descriptions on how to exchange calling cards

00:10:52.940 if you're if you're new in town you go door to door and you presented your calling card and

00:10:57.900 how that calling card was received whether it was received in person whether someone

00:11:01.860 came downstairs to take it from you or whether it was left or whether it was all part of the

00:11:08.280 language of receiving someone getting to know someone essentially exchanging contact information with

00:11:12.880 someone today i might talk with someone about uh how how you approach someone about connecting on

00:11:19.500 linkedin ultimately it's the same it's the same basic task it's it's getting to know people

00:11:25.480 establishing contact and communication with people initiating beginning relationships but

00:11:29.640 the environment has changed so radically that while there are elements that stay the same it really

00:11:35.320 looks so different you have to work to define those those common elements some things have changed

00:11:41.420 almost not at all the my favorite example is that the way my great-great-grandmother would have

00:11:46.560 described eating with a knife and fork in 1922 is almost exactly the same way that i described it when i

00:11:52.440 teach a seminar today um so the the the manners around meal times i think that you're you're less

00:12:00.040 likely to to radically reinvent that in your lifetime whereas i like to warn people when they're thinking

00:12:05.720 about new technology and communication etiquette that it's really worth um checking in on a pretty

00:12:12.100 regular basis and asking yourself and the people around you what your basic expectations are what your

00:12:18.180 common sense norms are because those do tend to shift and change and and oftentimes more quickly than

00:12:24.180 than we might imagine okay well what about i mean it seems like a lot of etiquette or manners were

00:12:30.800 gender-based right the whole like opening men opening door for ladies men standing up when a lady leaves the 0.88

00:12:37.160 table etc uh in our more egalitarian age do these gendered etiquette practices still have a place 1.00

00:12:43.940 in our society and if so i mean what are some of the things that men should pay particular attention

00:12:49.900 to yeah let's let's lay the groundwork um and and you're absolutely right in your assumption that

00:12:55.900 today particularly when you're talking about um formal public and business etiquette situations

00:13:02.440 business etiquette is gender neutral um it's really important that we have an even playing field

00:13:07.120 um for everyone and whether that's the a willingness today to embrace the the mix the mx um title as a

00:13:19.160 gender neutral option for people that that are our willingness to to stay flexible and to continue to

00:13:25.220 to change and evolve in that territory i think it's really important um sometimes people ask me if i think

00:13:31.140 that i have a hard time with today's generation is it difficult being you know the fifth generation of an

00:13:35.840 etiquette family say no i think it was the third generation that had the hardest time my grandmother

00:13:39.880 was representing this tradition in the 1960s and 70s when a generation of iconoclasts were truly

00:13:48.080 challenging the social order and were intentionally working to disrupt that social order and we might 0.60

00:13:54.760 face technological challenges today but we don't face that same sort of concerted cultural revolution

00:14:00.100 that that that my grandmother's generation faced and that was the generation that really 0.95

00:14:06.020 challenged the idea of traditional gendered courtesies and and that was a big big deal at the

00:14:13.320 time i mean with i was talking with my wife the other day about miss magazine and the the idea that

00:14:19.320 that was a revolutionary thing when it came out was was something we had to remind ourselves of and that

00:14:25.420 wasn't that long ago the u.s government adopted the ms the ms in the early 1970s um that that recently

00:14:32.680 how you addressed a woman was entirely dependent upon her marital status and that would that that was

00:14:38.840 really problematic um so it was an important step to move past that in the public world and it's

00:14:46.860 important that we that we recognize where we are 50 years later um and having said that um etiquette is

00:14:55.900 so oftentimes tolerant of other people's perspectives it's about putting other people at ease and

00:15:01.640 um many people today work in a workplace where there's four generations working side by side

00:15:06.880 and maybe a couple of those generations grew up in a world where those gendered courtesies were still 1.00

00:15:11.980 really important um so it's important to be aware of of of those generational differences and approaches

00:15:18.360 and the generational difference in awareness and i also think that sometimes people in this new world

00:15:26.060 that we're operating in i know it works for me and it's true for me that i oftentimes take a lot of comfort

00:15:31.500 and get a lot of ideas about what's appropriate now and moving forward from what has worked in the past

00:15:36.760 we can learn a lot and and those traditional and sometimes gendered courtesies came from places 1.00

00:15:41.900 when they were instituted um the chivalric code coming out of the 1300s which a lot of people

00:15:49.420 reference when they think about those traditional gendered courtesies in the states um was really a

00:15:55.080 code about affording women respect when it was initially instituted and by the time my mother's

00:16:01.240 generation was rebelling against the idea of of chivalry in the late 20th century the the world

00:16:09.940 had shifted a lot around some of the ideas that had made that behavior initially very respectful

00:16:14.440 and and left the generation more recently feeling disempowered um to come back to the the question of

00:16:23.200 what do you do then what if those courtesies still are important to you there's something you grew up

00:16:27.040 with and and and you really identify with some of those chivalric and respectful aspects of it

00:16:32.120 it's so simple you just ask permission to perform the courtesy may i get that for you thank you so

00:16:38.700 much you know it's been 15 years since someone offered to hold a chair for me or no thank you i can

00:16:42.880 handle that myself either way if you ask permission to perform the courtesy then you're not imposing your

00:16:48.560 will on anyone else but you're you're illustrating the values and the manners that are important to you

00:16:53.780 so really simple you just ask permission to perform the traditional courtesy yeah and i think it like

00:16:59.080 it reduces some of the awkwardness that could possibly happen right if you kind of foist yourself

00:17:03.000 because like you know if you want to extend that i think that there's a lot of women who would be 1.00

00:17:06.300 like what's this guy doing like taking my chair out that's kind of what's going on here like but if

00:17:11.060 you if you're sort of smooth about it say hey may i get that chair for you that's that's kind of

00:17:14.500 that's actually kind of smooth i think and it doesn't need to be as complicated a discourse as i just

00:17:18.980 launched into you can always say if i'm aware that there's an entire body of literature that talks

00:17:24.540 about the male gaze and no it may i get that for you it's it's it's so easy it doesn't need to be

00:17:30.960 as complicated a thing as we often make it gotcha okay um so let's get into uh some of the details of

00:17:37.420 your book um your special your specialty which is digital etiquette and as you said that's the thing

00:17:43.380 that's changed the most uh since 1922 since great-great-grandmother wrote the first one

00:17:48.740 um so let's start with smartphones i think this is the thing that causes most the most conflict

00:17:53.640 amongst families friends etc what's the general etiquette or guidelines for smartphone use in

00:18:02.840 public and in front of others we're getting right here from the expert we're getting it from a post

00:18:06.860 so after this point no one can argue all right exactly i wish um if i could push a magic button

00:18:17.420 and then change behavior um i think this is this is one of those areas where where i'd i'd love to do

00:18:24.200 it um it's it's really remarkable uh ap episodes did a study a couple years ago on rudeness in america

00:18:30.980 and they really focused on new technology and they asked people have you witnessed people using their

00:18:34.700 cell phone in a rude or annoying manner and something like 90 of people 89 of people say

00:18:39.140 they witnessed this but when you flip the question around and you ask people if they've used their

00:18:43.760 cell phone in a rude or annoying manner only eight percent of the public is going to cop to it of

00:18:47.820 course of course it's always someone else who's doing it it's never me etiquette is most powerful

00:18:52.860 when used as a tool for self-assessment and the thing is most of us know the rules most of us

00:18:57.220 understand the common sense collectively agreed upon rules for cell phone use that really the people

00:19:02.800 that you're with deserve your attention that whenever you're dealing with a captive audience

00:19:08.580 the responsibility is really extra on the person who's got the phone to be careful and the captive

00:19:14.480 audiences people in elevators stuck in a car with you stuck in a grocery line with you the cashier

00:19:19.880 who's got to check you out these are all people that can't get away and they they really deserve your

00:19:25.260 respect and and your attention to um their inability to get away from one half of your conversation

00:19:31.520 um so so those those basic principles that you owe your attention to the people that you're

00:19:37.240 physically with that there's a certain courtesy that you owe those people and that that courtesy

00:19:41.580 is amplified when the when that's a captive audience um again it's pretty pretty well understood by most

00:19:47.640 people and yet a lot of us are willing to give ourselves the exemption or don't see the behavior in

00:19:54.040 ourselves when we're doing it as um as easily as we see it in others so i would love

00:19:59.620 to encourage and advise everyone out there to really think about how

00:20:04.800 i would love to encourage everyone to think about how they use their phone and the the experiment that

00:20:12.900 i like to remind people is pavlov's dogs yeah the the classic experiment about program biological

00:20:19.240 behavior you feed a dog and ring a bell and measure salvation response it just doesn't take long where all

00:20:24.660 you need to do is ring the bell and you get the salvation response food or no food and we these

00:20:29.700 these phones ring and we take them out and we get connected to family and friends and information we

00:20:34.880 care about and we get a little endorphin rush and we get that positive feedback and we are habituating

00:20:41.000 ourselves and programming ourselves to respond to these devices and without some intentional and active

00:20:46.220 deprogramming that unintentional rude use is going to creep into your life it's it's going to happen

00:20:51.940 whether you want it to or not because that's the nature of how we use these things yeah and it's

00:20:57.320 not even hasn't have the ring it's just like the light has to flash right people get the ghost

00:21:02.540 vibration yeah you feel it on your leg when nothing's happened because just because it's been that long

00:21:08.880 and your body thinks something must be going on it's um it's really quite remarkable so so bringing

00:21:14.740 intentionality and awareness back to use i think is the the biggest tip i can give anybody because i think

00:21:20.640 most people sit for half a second and ask themselves is this is this good or appropriate

00:21:25.900 is this a fair use of this for both me and the people around me most people make the right decision

00:21:31.180 well there's actually if you're having if you're having trouble for all you out there having trouble

00:21:35.440 like deprogramming there are some apps out there like i know there's one for android that will

00:21:39.440 actually tell you like give you a report at the end of the day how often you looked at your phone

00:21:43.700 so oh fantastic so it gives you like a sense of self-awareness right so you see i looked at my phone

00:21:48.940 300 times today that's ridiculous i need to stop doing that so there's a tip there go look for

00:21:55.320 that out there i don't know you don't remember the name of it um so let's talk about another

00:21:58.440 aspect of communication that is like just it's overwhelmed our lives it's email i remember when

00:22:05.280 email first came out and it was kind of cool like you only you saved email for like really special

00:22:09.900 occasions but now it's like that's how that's how we all communicate we avoid the phone it's all over

00:22:15.140 email or texting we'll talk about texting in a bit um so what are the the the etiquette protocols

00:22:20.460 for email generally uh you know how how soon should we respond uh you know how do we nudge people who

00:22:27.780 haven't responded etc yeah um so for for me this is one of those new technology areas where i think you

00:22:34.920 can take a little lesson from the past i i like to treat new email exchanges as little letters

00:22:39.700 so um you don't need to date them you used to be once upon a time you put a date on a letter you

00:22:45.100 don't need to do that there's a time signature but i still i'm a big fan of salutations greetings

00:22:50.680 closings so uh if it's a a new chain with someone use and we can descend down the level of formality

00:22:57.700 deer is the most formal um you can always use deer someone's name and title our title and name

00:23:03.600 greetings can work well if you don't have a particular name

00:23:06.860 um hello or hi or even hello someone's name hi someone's name just someone's in some sort of

00:23:12.520 greeting comma return return content of the email return return most formal closing sincerely

00:23:19.520 comma next line me um other acceptable uh business sort of descending down the scale of formality

00:23:28.880 closings uh regards best regards all the best best uh for social correspondence warmly

00:23:36.840 affectionately um with affection uh the comma return name complete uh take your cue from the

00:23:47.020 person who's initiated the chain respond with the same level of formality once you're bouncing that

00:23:51.660 email back and forth those uh salutations and closings can fall away they often do even if i'm

00:23:58.160 corresponding with someone who i email with every day if i just put their initials at the top of the

00:24:02.580 email give them a couple returns i think it humanizes the message just a little bit makes

00:24:06.620 it a little less of a demand for someone's attention um so that that's the that's the broad idea treat it

00:24:13.260 like a little letter use salutations and closings uh for signature blocks try to keep um logos free of

00:24:21.160 image attachments a lot of people sort emails by attachments so you want to keep the attachment out of

00:24:27.260 there if you're going to offer someone thanks get it in the body of the email don't include it in your

00:24:31.540 signature line where it becomes perfunctory um other email tips choose your subject line well it's

00:24:38.740 what gets email read as you mentioned we get so much email now one of the the tasks that any

00:24:44.420 professional is faced with is sorting and filtering important information it's one of the things that

00:24:48.660 we all have to do as part of our professional lives now so there's an absolute new and emerging

00:24:54.160 courtesy around not spamming someone and labeling information that you send someone accurately so

00:24:59.640 they can find it later if they want it or care about it and so that's your subject line and

00:25:05.080 that's not all caps but that's something descriptive and topical about what happens in the body of the

00:25:10.160 email gotcha what about uh cc's and bcc's etiquette classic that we just did a question recently on

00:25:18.760 on our podcast about group text and it's one of the most shared pieces of content we've done in a while

00:25:24.420 how to politely get out of family group text um and the the old version of that question was

00:25:29.600 appropriate use of reply verse reply all and generally speaking only reply all when everybody

00:25:35.760 on the list needs to know if you're talking about an invitation that's coming from a single organizer

00:25:40.340 just reply to the organizer you don't need to reply to the complete list um again that that's the

00:25:46.940 courtesy of not um giving people information that's extraneous or superfluous in their world

00:25:52.540 um the i'm sorry what was the second part of your question like blind you know blind carbon copy

00:26:01.400 the the cc versus the bcc of course for me this is the question of honesty that um generally speaking

00:26:07.640 the carbon copy is what you want to default use so that everybody knows everybody that's received the

00:26:13.480 same information the bcc is really best and only used for protecting someone's um email if you've got

00:26:21.740 someone on a list who who uh it doesn't share their email for some reason that that's for me the

00:26:28.540 appropriate use of the bcc some people would use it to um send a request to someone and simultaneously

00:26:35.560 without letting them know send that same request to their boss as a way to double check and and i say

00:26:41.200 just let that person know there's no need to be um there's no need to be deceptive about it

00:26:47.520 so with the bcc my big tip for folks is to be sure you use your you to be sure you're being honest that

00:26:52.980 you could explain to anybody who received the email why you were using the bcc the way you are

00:26:57.360 gotcha and in guidelines on how soon you should respond like you know for someone like me i get

00:27:03.160 tons and tons of email and i i used to have the i protocol like i'm going to try to get back to

00:27:06.920 people within 24 hours sometimes that's not possible i mean what do you do if for that in that case

00:27:12.980 well thanks for sharing your time frame because that's about mine for for email i tell people i

00:27:18.160 think that the basic expectation is it's about a 24-hour turnaround you can't expect that someone

00:27:23.180 again we're all tasked with sorting and prioritizing information all the time and

00:27:28.860 um the idea that you you you could penetrate someone's world in less than 24 hours via email

00:27:36.580 i think is a bit much if you haven't heard from someone in 24 hours even an acknowledgement that

00:27:40.880 the email's been received i don't think it's inappropriate to follow up but i also wouldn't

00:27:45.220 um treat it as if they had failed i wouldn't act aggrieved about it i would do it more as just a

00:27:51.160 follow-up just checking to be sure you received my first email or wanted to be sure you received my

00:27:56.100 first email my tone would be um not one of being disturbed that i hadn't been responded to

00:28:03.700 a concept i love to share is that human attention is a gift and um it should be received with

00:28:09.980 appreciation and people also need to recognize you can't necessarily demand someone else's attention

00:28:15.820 you you have to earn it because human attention really is a gift and we only have so much of it

00:28:20.280 to give yeah so i guess a tip would be if you do i think you kind of hinted to it at it there if you

00:28:24.840 are overloaded with email at least get back to someone saying look i got your email but it's going

00:28:29.500 to be a while before i can give a complete response to it i think that's absolute best practice

00:28:33.980 and like you i wish i could say that i i always was able to do it i wish i i wish i always got

00:28:39.280 back to emails within 24 hours it doesn't happen but i also i don't i'm not bothered if 24 hours

00:28:45.620 later someone follows up with me and says just check in to see if you got my first email and

00:28:49.500 oftentimes i really appreciate it oh no i meant to get back to them okay so you mentioned texting all

00:28:57.120 right that's another thing that's been coming up like uh that's becoming a big a sore spot uh for

00:29:02.280 family members couples even and on the job texting has become a problem so what's the

00:29:09.460 etiquette of texting like when should you do it how neat how fast need to respond because i think

00:29:14.500 it's kind of funny with all these different communication types right there's like there's

00:29:18.340 like we had there's like this unspoken time frame that you should be able to respond so if it's like

00:29:22.360 a phone if like it's a letter well you have like you have like a week so like a handwritten letter you

00:29:26.660 can respond to someone in a few weeks that's fine email okay 24 hours but with text i guess

00:29:32.060 there's like this unspoken assumption that you have to respond right away to a text is that is

00:29:36.040 that the case maybe even in seconds yeah if you don't respond what are you there why don't you

00:29:41.740 respond to me i've gotten that before or or it just it becomes um it did the whole the whole message

00:29:47.240 dries out yeah if you were to jump in with that witty reply all of five minutes later just something's

00:29:53.300 lost it's uh and and that's absolutely true each of these mediums has its own rhythm its own pace

00:29:58.720 and and there's no question i think the broad understanding is the text is very immediate

00:30:03.100 um i sometimes tell people that uh we used to imagine a day when telepathy exists we got it

00:30:08.660 i can have a thought and i can share with anybody almost instantaneously anywhere i was absolutely

00:30:13.000 amazing um i tell people to be really careful that that you build expectation particularly within

00:30:20.100 relationships around communication and response time and that you don't want to build a set of

00:30:26.940 expectations into your wife that you're that you just can't live with or that ultimately you don't

00:30:31.420 enjoy um so i use texting i don't have an expectation of a 30 second turnaround time with anybody that i

00:30:39.560 text with in life there are definitely certain groups that i'm in particularly on a sunday afternoon

00:30:44.780 when the fantasy games are rolling very quickly um where we're communicating very quickly back and

00:30:52.000 forth and probably the response time is that 20 30 seconds tops um but it's not an expectation if i

00:30:58.460 were to jump in later it would it would be okay and i love to encourage people to build that kind of

00:31:03.380 space and breathing room into the expectations that they build into the into relationships um because

00:31:08.720 that can be really difficult that that that quick text response um demand and i think sometimes it

00:31:14.740 results in rude behavior that oftentimes there's a substitution mentality that people know that it would be

00:31:20.160 inappropriate to make a phone call from this situation but they're willing to substitute a text so it was

00:31:26.080 teens at the dinner table and then it was people in movie theaters and little by little the idea that

00:31:31.380 that substitution mentality is okay is is is starting to be chipped away at which i like because i to me it's

00:31:38.840 about where your attention is going in terms of how rude it is to the people around you um

00:31:44.640 but i do think that that texting in particular because people feel that they should respond

00:31:51.700 quickly kind of draws them into behaviors with with their phone that's not always

00:31:56.100 the most appropriate or that isn't always the most considerate for the people that they're with

00:32:00.320 um so i like to say take a deep breath relax it's still going to be there you can still respond to

00:32:05.900 it later it might not feel as relevant but it probably will be and if it were really critically

00:32:12.180 important the information i don't might or might not be coming as text to begin with yeah it'd

00:32:17.120 probably be a phone call yeah and so i mean do you should you uh if you do need to make a text like

00:32:22.260 do you excuse yourself like excuse me can i go do this or is it okay to be like whip out your phone

00:32:26.680 i'm gonna make a text really quick and then just do it right there and put it away at the phone really

00:32:30.100 fast also prevention's worth a pound of cure i like the way you announce what you're doing there

00:32:34.300 um i i think it goes a long way towards just acknowledging again you got to know the rule to know how to

00:32:41.060 break it my attention should be on this person that i'm with it's really not a big deal if i

00:32:45.740 fire off a quick text particularly it's going to set us up for dinner later on or something um

00:32:50.380 just giving that person that you're with the basic consideration of acknowledging you're about

00:32:56.700 to break a little etiquette rule and it doesn't need to be like oh i'm so sorry i'm about disrespect

00:33:00.740 you for taking my phone out and texting but you know i just want to text my mom real quick and let

00:33:05.160 her know that i'm planning to come for dinner tonight then they know you're going to be off real quick

00:33:10.500 they know what you're doing they don't wonder whether or not you even care or about them or

00:33:15.380 how their impact or affected because he just showed you cared you just pulled them um pardon me just a

00:33:20.920 second magic words really are magic i'm gonna i'm gonna fire off a quick text to my mom tell her i'm

00:33:24.780 gonna be home for dinner um so yeah that that that letting someone know what you're doing how long

00:33:30.220 you're going to be doing it just acknowledging their humanity as part of the process i think take

00:33:34.960 something like that and makes it an absolute um not a big deal at all right it's making people feel

00:33:41.140 good and and comfortable exactly back to that um and and i don't know if i if i managed to solve our

00:33:46.940 problem of what do you do with texting where that expectation is is so quick in the yeah i'm frame of

00:33:52.260 reply i think the answer is you give yourself the latitude that you understand the the counter argument

00:33:58.820 why you wouldn't just take your phone out of your pocket and fire it off i think we've talked about

00:34:02.620 those reasons already one showing consideration for the situation that you're in at the moment

00:34:06.860 you're sitting in church and you wouldn't do it then you're at a funeral you wouldn't do it then

00:34:10.220 you're in a public restroom and you're not going to take your phone out and hold it in your hand then

00:34:14.260 um or the other consideration that we talked about of just that you don't want to be constantly um

00:34:20.760 respond more responsive to the device in your pocket than the hiking trail that you're walking down or

00:34:27.760 that there needs to be time in all of our lives where we can carve out um to be with the people

00:34:32.560 we're with even if that's just ourself and um you mentioned those apps i'll tell you how many times

00:34:39.220 a day you've looked at your phone and it might not even be as as personal as you know i'm sitting here

00:34:44.260 with my mother i'm not going to answer a text right now it might be you know i i don't need to pick my

00:34:49.300 phone up 200 plus times a day and and and that's an okay reason to to limit the amount of replying you

00:34:56.500 do also you know i've for some reason this is really weird like i never picked i've never taken to

00:35:01.900 texting so like people text me and i guess i've sort of trained them because i don't respond

00:35:06.420 i know it's probably really i know it's really rude of me um not at all but make your preference

00:35:11.680 known yeah expectations in the relationship i do that i tell them with that yeah i tell people like

00:35:15.780 don't text me like call me or like send an email um i'll tell you what broke me i i was with you i'm

00:35:22.180 i'll i'll update myself like i did i graduated college in 2000 so i bet my first cell phone i had

00:35:29.920 on my way out the door from college and i i did not pick up texting either until i watched my younger

00:35:35.520 brother and his new wife text all the time and it was like it kept them very close it was a very

00:35:41.500 immediate part of their relationship and it struck me as sweet how connected they were i'd be with him

00:35:47.520 and he'd be getting these little messages from her all the time and um it kind of won me over to what

00:35:52.260 a personal medium it can be um and when i watch when i watch younger people the kids these days and

00:36:00.000 their text machine um i'm often reminded of my brother and his wife and and how close they seem

00:36:05.620 when they're interacting on it so that that was that was the moment i took the plunge and jumped in

00:36:11.480 yeah good for you yeah well i i work across from my wife every day so that's i guess if we work

00:36:16.420 separately then that would that is a treat that is definitely a treat um let's talk about social

00:36:22.400 media uh because this is a place where there's like no manners it seems like whatsoever facebook

00:36:29.000 twitter blog comments um i mean what can people do to make social media networks a more civil place

00:36:38.020 or is that a lost cause i i i've heard this before that there are no manners online and my proof to

00:36:44.760 you that there are okay it's how aggrieved people feel when they're broken that you wouldn't have so

00:36:52.300 many people as bothered by what other people are doing if there wasn't a basic social expectation

00:36:56.820 there to begin with and anytime you have two people interacting you start to have expectations of each

00:37:02.340 other and the expectations we have each other online are are are are they exist and they they came into

00:37:09.140 being more quickly than i think people even even realized and um i i love that element of it that

00:37:17.600 what happens online is interaction is human relationship so in many ways it's it's a purely

00:37:22.780 um social space and and that some of the particular etiquettes are peculiar to that space

00:37:29.420 but um but they're absolutely there and they absolutely exist um and as far as what we do to

00:37:36.620 to to shift them mold them shape them and make them and tell that community be the kind of community

00:37:42.600 that we all want to participate in it's model the behavior you want to see in the world that etiquette is

00:37:47.440 most powerful when used as a tool for self-assessment we rarely have the standing to address someone else's

00:37:53.420 behavior and if you want to find out how little standing you have addressing someone else's behavior try

00:37:58.260 addressing their behavior online yeah and see what kind of response you get um it it's it really is

00:38:05.540 one of those spaces where the degree to which you participate well really determines the quality of your

00:38:13.080 experience there um i make a joke sometimes at the start of my my seminars i say you know i think most

00:38:18.620 people don't mean to be rude i think that i'm an eternal optimist that a few internet trolls aside most

00:38:24.160 people don't wake up in the morning and set out to hurt someone else's feeling or make someone else

00:38:28.440 feel bad but we make that allowance that that happens some in online spaces and with that mediated

00:38:35.100 interaction where you aren't as responsible to the person that you're impacting as immediately or

00:38:40.840 directly as if you're in a room with them um i think sometimes the intentionally hurtful or the

00:38:46.280 intentionally harmful is easier and and maybe gets out more than than people would intend it to or or or

00:38:54.360 um rude behavior that would someone would catch themselves sooner if they had the real world consequences and

00:39:00.600 were faced with them they just don't uh whether they intend to or not and that does happen online i have to

00:39:06.620 acknowledge that and and i really think the best defense against that is is understanding your own level of

00:39:13.960 participation and understanding really what you have control over in those spaces because it's

00:39:20.440 it's really difficult to argue with someone who won't argue back and if you're the person who's not arguing

00:39:24.460 back you're a pretty difficult person to to draw into an argument so yeah so yeah i mean is that the best

00:39:30.200 response to say like trolls like just ignore them because there's like yeah this is one of the things i put in

00:39:35.740 my book usually what they're there for is to get attention and the less attention you give them um is

00:39:41.860 oftentimes the most effective response that a community can give to to a real agitator or disruptor

00:39:47.540 yeah and i i tell other people also like i don't think people understand this whenever they respond

00:39:53.460 to a troll like on twitter or facebook you are actually broadcasting the troll like i don't think

00:39:59.040 because like when you add them like everyone in your twitter feed like sees your conversation you've

00:40:04.080 had like if you just ignored it it would have just like kind of died in that one little

00:40:07.200 sell right yep every every eyeball that hits that is is a victory for that person

00:40:14.040 don't reach don't feed the trolls don't feed the trolls exactly okay so here's a question that i

00:40:20.500 it's it's sort of the the nexus of two mediums right and it's made very complicated with email

00:40:28.420 and that's the the handwritten thank you note right so i love sending handwritten thank you notes

00:40:34.280 um but i'm always confused about what to do with like email so i have like a you know you'll do

00:40:38.580 something with someone via an email exchange and they do you a solid like a really awesome thing

00:40:43.260 you like i want to send this guy a thank you note but it's kind of weird because like you just said

00:40:46.680 thanks to them in the email um so like do you just send the thank you note anyway even though you've

00:40:53.860 already said thanks uh before in the email what how do you navigate that sort of email and and

00:41:01.040 handwritten thank you note uh combo there yeah sure it doesn't hurt um the medium becomes part

00:41:06.740 of the message and and as i mentioned earlier whenever you take that extra step and you hand

00:41:12.520 write a note to somebody the medium really becomes part of the message particularly in a world where

00:41:16.740 that happens less and less frequently um i also say that that the medium being part of the message

00:41:22.640 sometimes the the that email thank you is the appropriate level of thanks you've had an

00:41:27.380 interaction that's been an email interaction that someone hasn't bought you a gift you haven't

00:41:32.180 banged for you haven't bought you a meal they haven't interviewed you they haven't i mean there

00:41:36.360 are all kinds of of of short thanks for which an email is entirely appropriate and would really be

00:41:41.960 appreciated but there's no reason if you decide that you want to notch it up a little bit and follow

00:41:47.360 that up with the handwritten thanks that you shouldn't do it and it'll absolutely make an impression i

00:41:52.700 guarantee it um i could talk at length about the value of of writing thank you notes of gratitude of

00:42:00.100 grace of bringing the qualities of gratitude and grace into your life intentionally by making a

00:42:07.060 commitment to thanking people and thanking them well they can really be transformative and um i'm a big

00:42:14.200 proponent and fan of of of really honoring that process of giving thanks and i wouldn't ever want to

00:42:21.460 slow anyone down or dissuade someone from following up an email with a written thank you we oftentimes

00:42:26.320 say for really important events like the that job that you really want that you really care about

00:42:31.280 it's the dream job it's the one you've been waiting for thank them three times thank them verbally on

00:42:35.560 the way out the door thank them within 24 hours with an email note and then follow up with that

00:42:40.160 handwritten note i know we call it snail mail believe it or not it's going to get there in two or three

00:42:44.040 days if you mail it from anywhere local um and it's going to get there a little later in the week and

00:42:48.840 that's that's not a bad three-point touch for someone that you're really trying to establish

00:42:53.060 and build rapport with fantastic and uh with the holidays coming up here's another question i've had

00:42:58.000 about thank you notes so if someone gifts you something and they're there in person you thank

00:43:03.600 them there right do you need to send a thank you note to them you don't have to okay this is straight

00:43:09.800 straight from emily post the important thank you the most genuine and sincere is the verbal in person

00:43:15.280 look them in the eye smile tell them you care about them you appreciate the thought you appreciate

00:43:20.520 the effort thank you so much that's that still is and will always be the gold standard doesn't mean

00:43:26.600 you can't follow up with a written if you want but really that's that's enough for most people okay

00:43:30.940 great to know um oh here you mentioned this so the thank you know the handwritten thank you note has

00:43:36.120 become like an anomaly right it's like what sets you apart and so if someone writes you a thank you

00:43:42.620 note you're like man it's like the first thank you note i've gotten in years i know what's coming

00:43:46.360 next do you write a thank you note for the thank you note it has to end somewhere this is an infinity

00:43:51.900 mirror kind of problem and and and no you you effectively and and and um you end the chain with that

00:44:00.540 handwritten thank you note and and you you exactly you could probably take a bow and exit page right

00:44:05.720 a lot of the time and um we oftentimes say it's important not to trump someone's thanks

00:44:10.420 that uh magic words are magic and there's a reason you're welcome is on the list and that's because

00:44:16.080 it's not always no thank you or it was no problem or no it was no trouble sometimes thank you is really

00:44:22.500 important someone wants to offer thanks and and being the person who can receive that and receive

00:44:26.940 it well makes an important part of that process so enjoy that you're welcome okay fantastic um so

00:44:34.440 brett unfortunately i i gotta go to vpr at three so i'm gonna have to run but i i want to do a

00:44:40.720 second part of this interview sometime let's do it yeah let's end it right now i think that was great

00:44:44.700 um we'll definitely there's so much more we could talk about i'd love to have you i think you and i

00:44:48.140 could go on for a long time i'm warning i'm a talker sure no i love it you know it's gonna keep

00:44:51.800 happening i love it so yeah we'll end it right here um so i'll just kind of do a little quick outro

00:44:55.780 dan post thank you for this dan post it's been a fascinating discussion thank you so much for your

00:45:00.860 time it's been a pleasure right it was it was truly my pleasure i'm a big fan of the art of

00:45:05.680 manliness and um i can't wait to get you over to awesome etiquette someday well thank you i

00:45:09.920 appreciate it my guest today was daniel post sending he's the author of the book manners in

00:45:14.240 a digital world living well online he's also a contributor at the emily post institute and you

00:45:19.300 can find out more information there at emily post.com well that wraps up another edition of the art

00:45:27.340 of manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice make sure to check out the art of

00:45:30.740 manliness website at artofmanliness.com and if you enjoy this podcast again i'd always appreciate

00:45:34.700 it if you give us a review on itunes or stitcher your support is always appreciated until next time

00:45:39.120 this is brett mckay telling you to stay manly

00:46:00.740 you

The Art of Manliness - December 11, 2015

#162： Digital Manners & Etiquette For the Modern Man With Daniel Post Senning

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