The Art of Manliness - #164： How to Wow in Relationships & Business

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. So I know

00:00:18.620 a lot of people think it's superficial, particularly guys, but the way we present ourselves to

00:00:22.540 the world affects the influence that we have on others. It's not just the words that we

00:00:27.160 say, but things like our body language, the clothes that we wear, the tone of our voice,

00:00:32.200 all work together in personal influence. And so with that in mind, I mean, it would be in our

00:00:37.420 interest to just put our best foot forward and present our best selves to the people we interact

00:00:42.200 with for business pitches, speeches, lunch meetings, et cetera. I mean, we want to make sure that the

00:00:47.880 message we have actually gets across to people because people give us a chance because we're

00:00:51.380 presenting ourselves in the best way possible. Well, my guests say that's what she does for a

00:00:54.940 living. She teaches and coaches executives, media personalities on how to put their best

00:00:59.960 foot forward. So they're more influential. Her name is Frances Cole Jones. She's the author of 0.60

00:01:04.980 the book, How to Wow. And today on the podcast, we're going to talk about a bunch of tips, tactics,

00:01:09.040 things you can do to present your best self to the world. So you can be more influential in speeches,

00:01:15.300 business meetings, job interviews, even first dates, right? So without further ado,

00:01:20.420 Frances Cole Jones and how to wow. Frances Cole Jones, welcome to the show.

00:01:33.240 Thank you so much. So you've written a lot of books, content about self-presentation, public

00:01:38.980 speaking, persuasion. But before we get into some of the things you've written about in your book,

00:01:44.640 one of them we're going to talk about today is how to wow, which I absolutely love.

00:01:47.360 Let's talk a bit about your career and what you do because it's interesting. I was trying to figure

00:01:52.900 out how to describe what you do, your job description. How would you describe what you do

00:01:58.800 as far as consulting and teaching people how to present their best selves?

00:02:04.520 It really depends on the day, but that is it in a nutshell is presenting your best self no matter what

00:02:10.900 the situation. So some of my clients are going on television and they're talking about whatever it is

00:02:16.840 that they're talking about their product or their stock price. Some of my clients are, you know,

00:02:22.840 people who are trying to get back into the workforce after having been out of the workforce for a few

00:02:28.620 years. So it really depends. Every day is different, but what's really nice is that the principles are

00:02:35.520 always the same. So no matter who you are or what you're doing, you can use this information.

00:02:41.420 Gotcha. And how do you answer the question? I, I'm a big believer in presenting your best self,

00:02:47.200 but I'm sure there's some naysayers out there saying, this is all inauthentic. It's phony. You

00:02:51.960 should just be yourself. Um, and you know, all this, these little tactics you should do that you

00:02:57.280 shouldn't really worry about it. How do you respond to people who, who make those sort of, uh,

00:03:01.620 arguments? I absolutely want you to be authentic. And if you're not, of course, people are going to pick

00:03:08.740 up on that. But I think that even the naysayers will agree that they have days when they feel

00:03:15.700 super articulate and powerful, and then they have days where they have trouble stringing a sentence

00:03:22.440 together. Um, so my goal is, you know, really that you would have a few tools on the days when perhaps

00:03:31.780 you're not your best self, um, that you can pull these out and say, okay, I know that this is more

00:03:38.700 helpful. I think it's, you know, it's really the verbal equivalent in many cases of just putting on

00:03:44.460 a clean shirt. I like that. I like that example. Great analogy. Cause you don't want to go into any

00:03:51.560 type of presentation with mustard or ketchup. No, you know, just spruce yourself up a little bit.

00:03:56.480 Okay. So in your book, how to wow, you start off the book talking about the three elements of

00:04:02.820 influence in face-to-face contact. What are those three elements and what's their respective amount

00:04:09.700 of importance and overall persuasion and presentation to other people?

00:04:14.620 Well, there is some controversy around this study. Nonetheless, I love it. Uh, it comes out of UCLA

00:04:20.460 and they said that there's, there are three components of your message, verbal, vocal, and visual.

00:04:25.700 The people actually only remember about 7% of what is said. 38% of your impact is your tonal quality

00:04:34.260 and 55% is what your body's doing while you're speaking. So with that in mind, what I do is,

00:04:41.660 okay, let's make what you're going to be saying as memorable as possible. And let's organize your

00:04:46.580 tonality and your physicality so that nothing detracts from what you're trying to get done.

00:04:50.820 Gotcha. So with that in mind, uh, what are, what are things we can do with our tonality and

00:04:56.780 our body language, uh, to improve our influence on other people?

00:05:02.640 Well, in terms of tonality, you know, one of the easiest things that I'm doing right now is

00:05:07.940 stand when you're speaking. If it's an important phone call, stand when you're talking. Um, you're

00:05:14.800 automatically going to have so much more energy and animation in your voice. And the other thing

00:05:20.120 that I love is do important phone calls while you are looking in a mirror, because it is impossible

00:05:26.320 to look at yourself in the mirror and not amuse yourself. Right. And you're going to smile at

00:05:30.480 yourself and you're so funny and you're so charming. So, and your voice is going to follow along with

00:05:35.560 all of that. Those are some great tips because I, I have a problem with phone calls personally. I,

00:05:41.140 I don't know, I've always treated phone calls like it's a, it's a medium of communication. Just say

00:05:44.900 what you got to say and get it done. And my wife's always reminding me, you need to like smile when

00:05:50.300 you're talking and don't have such as this, this, this grouch face on, on you. Cause like it reflects

00:05:55.280 in your voice. You don't think it would, but it does. It does. And I mean, I really do recommend

00:05:59.660 for a lot of my clients, not because they're all indescribably narcissistic, but because it's helpful

00:06:06.120 is to have a mirror in your office. And if it's an important call, shut the door and, you know,

00:06:12.660 talk to the mirror. So. Okay. So yeah, this is great. If you're doing a job interview or on the

00:06:17.520 phone, stand up and look in a mirror. Yeah. In terms of the other things in terms of physicality

00:06:23.440 that you can do, it's a very small thing, but it's powerful as we trust you when we can see your

00:06:28.040 hands and we don't trust you when we can't, you know, which is why one of the first things they say

00:06:32.600 to the, you know, alleged criminal is put your hands where I can see them. So, you know, if

00:06:39.260 you're sitting again in a meeting where you're asking for money, or if you're in a job interview

00:06:44.700 and you wish to appear trustworthy, just keep your hands on the table. Okay. And what about just

00:06:49.920 talking, you know, in just daily interactions, whether you're at a cocktail party, a networking

00:06:54.280 event, a date, what are things you can do with your body language to, I don't know, put your best

00:07:01.180 foot forward and maybe make people feel more comfortable and at ease around you?

00:07:05.380 You know, it's a really seemingly small thing, but how many times have you met somebody at

00:07:10.300 anything and they say, I'm really happy to meet you. And I'm like, okay, well, you don't sound happy.

00:07:16.880 So you haven't even gotten through how do you do, and you've already come across as insincere.

00:07:22.620 So really and truly, when you meet somebody, take that time and connect. And, you know,

00:07:28.700 if you're going to say you're happy about something, please sound happy about it.

00:07:32.840 Gotcha. And here's a question I have. Maybe you have the answer to this. I think you do.

00:07:38.000 Whenever I'm doing public speaking or I'm in a meeting doing a presentation, I never know what

00:07:43.140 to do with my hands, right? Like, should I keep them in front of me? Should I move them around a lot,

00:07:49.160 gesticulate? Should I hold something? If I'm at a party, like, what do I do with my hands if I don't

00:07:53.220 have a drink? And I know I'm probably being overly self-conscious, but there's probably some things

00:07:59.220 you can do to ease that amount of self-consciousness, right?

00:08:03.880 Yes. What it is, is you just want to get really committed to what it is that you are talking about.

00:08:10.220 So, I mean, if you're completely caught up in the story that you're telling, you're not thinking about

00:08:17.620 your hands. And, you know, it's the same way. A lot of people hire me to get rid of the ums and

00:08:24.920 things like that in their speech. But the same thing will happen if you're totally committed to

00:08:29.800 what you're saying. Those drop away naturally. So, I guess what I would say is think less about

00:08:36.580 your hands and more, again, just about really connecting both to the person or the audience

00:08:41.920 that you're speaking to and to what it is that you're saying. And then, again, it's just,

00:08:46.780 it's effortless. It drops away. You know, I mean, I'm sure if you're, if you're talking to your wife

00:08:51.620 and you're telling a story about something that's made you crazy and then this happened and then

00:08:54.940 that happened and then you are not thinking about what your hands are doing. No, not.

00:09:00.160 So, you want to get that committed. So, that's the key. It seems like storytelling

00:09:04.220 is a key in your communication.

00:09:06.580 Storytelling is critical. Storytelling keeps you away from what's known in my business as useless

00:09:13.380 modifiers. Like, you know, it's great. It's amazing. It's incredible. It's awesome. And

00:09:18.440 nothing happens in my brain when you say that. You know, are you talking about your cell phone?

00:09:24.060 Are you talking about your sandwich? Nothing. So, but if you tell me a story about why something

00:09:30.220 is, then automatically it's more memorable and more interesting. You know, and again, this works,

00:09:36.720 you know, if I have a client who's talking about their product or if you're in a job interview,

00:09:41.600 you know, a common job interview question is, you know, tell me about your greatest strength

00:09:47.540 and, you know, nobody's going to remember, well, I'm just a really great leader. I'm just a really

00:09:52.420 awesome leader. I really love to lead. Nothing. No. You know, it has to be, there was this time and

00:09:57.860 this occurred and this was the situation and this is how I took charge of it and this was the outcome

00:10:01.900 and yay for me. And that's, you know, that's a story that your listener can repeat. So, you really,

00:10:08.440 you just have to have, you know, they don't, I don't want them to be long. Please don't make

00:10:13.220 them long, very short, but, um, but stories will help you. Okay. So yeah, not even, don't even use

00:10:20.160 stories for, uh, job things, but also like have a, some stories lined up that you could tell in just

00:10:26.460 casual social encounters as well. Absolutely. You know, one of my things is if you're in a casual

00:10:31.520 social, a lot of times people will introduce, you'll introduce two people and you'll say,

00:10:35.720 oh my God, you guys are going to love each other. Okay. Now the two people are just looking at you

00:10:42.400 like they have nowhere to go with that. Right. Because maybe, maybe they're not feeling it.

00:10:48.620 They're not feeling the love. So, but if you say this is so-and-so he and I met when X occurred and

00:10:54.440 this is so-and-so and she and I met when, you know, Y occurred and both of you, you know, did the

00:11:01.440 following and now they have common ground. So it's just a much better way to make an introduction.

00:11:08.440 Okay. And you kind of hit on this a little bit about the words we say. So according to the UCLA

00:11:13.220 study, 7% of what we say, uh, contributes to overall persuasion, but there are some things we

00:11:18.500 should avoid saying. So you mentioned the ums and the uhs, try to reduce that. And then we talked

00:11:23.640 about these useless modifiers. If those are words we should avoid to be persuasive, what are some words

00:11:29.100 we should include to build rapport and be more persuasive with the people we interact with?

00:11:34.940 Well, Yale university did a study of the 12 most persuasive words in the English language

00:11:39.520 and the most persuasive word in the English language is you. So the more that you can,

00:11:46.340 when you're talking to people, be like, as I'm sure, you know, as I'm sure you've heard when I was

00:11:49.320 talking about you today and just putting everything in that context, because at the end of the day,

00:11:53.620 it really doesn't matter who you are. And it is, you know, part of my job to tell, you know,

00:11:58.580 people who think they're incredibly important, that no one cares about them. Nobody cares about

00:12:03.320 you. What they care about is themselves and how you are going to make their life better.

00:12:08.080 So if you're walking in and saying, I wanted to talk to you today, well, because this and this and

00:12:13.840 this, then all of a sudden people's ears, you know, they perk up. The other study that I talk about a

00:12:20.520 lot is Ellen Langer, who's a social psychologist out of Harvard, did a study that showed that there's

00:12:26.460 one word that increases the possibility of cooperation from 60 to 94%. And that word is

00:12:36.680 because. So I wanted to talk to you today because. Giving people, again, the because behind any

00:12:43.280 request that you're making. Why are you making me sit through this? You need to articulate that.

00:12:48.600 I think I've seen that study about the because. And it was kind of bizarre because it was,

00:12:54.420 the experiment was, if I'm correct, if I'm remembering correctly, it was, they asked someone

00:12:59.880 to cut in front of a copy line, like get into the front and say, the one person said, I need to,

00:13:07.080 can I cut in front of you? And everyone said, no, of course you can't like wait in line. But if people

00:13:11.820 just said, because, and like some random reason, didn't even be connected to anything, like people

00:13:16.080 complied. Like you can say, because I need to, can I cut in front of you? Because I have to make tea

00:13:20.700 in five minutes. People are like, okay. This is what I always, you know, again, I tell my clients,

00:13:25.360 if someone cuts the line at the grocery store, you're pissed off. But if they say, do you mind

00:13:29.960 if I cut the line because I'm late to pick up my kids at school, you're going to let the line cut go.

00:13:35.800 You'll still be pissed about it, but you'll let it go. So yeah. So yeah. Have a reason. So use you.

00:13:41.540 Yeah. You and because are very important. So I think one thing that people often feel

00:13:48.840 self-conscious about is introducing themselves, whether it's their first day at the job or at a

00:13:55.460 networking event or a conference, what's the best way to introduce yourself that will leave a lasting

00:14:01.620 impression yet at the same time doesn't feel like, you know, the, the stereotypical elevator pitch

00:14:07.620 where you, you know, it sounds like you memorize this and you're just trying to get your pitch into

00:14:13.340 me. Um, how can you introduce yourself, but be more memorable? Again, it's about telling a story

00:14:19.900 about why, why is what you're talking about going to make the other person's life better?

00:14:28.660 So if I were to say to you, Oh my God, I have the most amazing book. It's just, it's such a wonderful

00:14:34.720 book. I wrote it. It took me this amount of months to write it. And you know, this is my agent said

00:14:39.640 this about it. And my nanny said this about it. And you're thinking to yourself, I don't care.

00:14:45.020 Right. But if I say to you, you know what? I wrote a book and I know that right now you have a new

00:14:52.680 business and part of the work of your new business is finding new clients. So what I'm hoping is that

00:15:01.080 I have a few techniques up my sleeve that might be useful to you. And I wrote them down in a book.

00:15:07.880 So, you know, you want to back end it with what's important to you and you want to front load it with

00:15:14.720 why the other person should care. Okay. And couched in a story. It sounds like you're telling a story.

00:15:21.000 Yes. And the story is about the person you're talking to. The story is not about yourself.

00:15:25.160 Yeah. You had this great, yeah, you had this great line. I've been thinking about it more and more

00:15:28.900 is that everyone's a hero in their own world. Right. Right. And so you got to think about that

00:15:34.840 when you're talking to people. It's like, let them try to figure out how is what I have to offer

00:15:39.440 going to help them advance in their own hero's journey. Right. Yeah. I actually pulled that from

00:15:45.840 Mike Myers during an actor inside the actor's studio interview. He said, every villain is the hero of his

00:15:51.460 own story. So even if what someone is doing is completely incomprehensible to you, if you can just

00:16:00.340 try to figure out, okay, as crazy as it seems, they think they're on the side of right and order

00:16:08.140 and speak into that a little bit. Yeah. That's a good reminder because I often think,

00:16:17.380 I do this too, whenever someone does something just absolutely nuts, you think, well, they're just

00:16:22.560 doing this because they know it's wrong, but they're still doing it. Right. But no, they think

00:16:26.620 what they're absolutely doing is right, correct, et cetera. Yes. Well, here's the question. This leads

00:16:32.640 to another question. How do you un-awkwardly correct people? They might be wrong. They may have

00:16:39.700 misspoken or they're doing something that might be incorrect. This probably comes up at work all the

00:16:46.740 time. Someone doesn't follow protocol or they're just being unintentionally annoying or whatever.

00:16:53.960 How can you un-awkwardly correct them without making hard feelings a thing? I think the first

00:17:01.760 thing to do is double check your own hearing and your own perception. So that's a really easy way to

00:17:08.360 do it. So if somebody says something preposterous to say, okay, hang on a sec. I just want to make

00:17:13.720 sure that I'm understanding you correctly. What I thought I heard you say is X. And sometimes

00:17:21.620 when they hear you say it out loud, they realize that's not right. So that's an easy way to do it.

00:17:28.720 And they're like, no, no, you misunderstood me. If you say it again and they say, oh, yes,

00:17:37.340 that's exactly what I want you to do. You always want to take the onus on yourself. You want to say,

00:17:42.000 okay, so I'm going to, it sounds a little bit like I'm quibbling with you, but it was my understanding

00:17:48.980 that the goal today was X. And I'm unclear on how this is going to help us accomplish that.

00:17:59.680 So again, you know, it's not because you're difficult or argumentative, you're just confused

00:18:04.660 and you're trying to arrive at a solution. But just to keep circling back and trying to get the

00:18:13.640 other person, if they can, to dig a little bit deeper into, okay, but what is the intention for

00:18:20.220 the day? Because sometimes people do have the same goal. They just have very, very different ways of

00:18:26.460 getting there. Another super useful, incredibly useful question is if someone's doing something

00:18:32.760 that just makes your head explode, before you correct them, you can say, can you tell me why

00:18:38.900 you're doing it that way? Because they might have a reason that you haven't thought of, you know,

00:18:47.220 so that's yay. Or they might not understand what it is you're trying to achieve. And then that's,

00:18:53.120 you've, but you've at least honored their process by inquiring first, if they have a process.

00:19:01.400 Does that make sense?

00:19:02.500 Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. I actually, that, after I read that, that could have come in

00:19:06.900 handy before, a couple of weeks ago, I have one of my editors works for me and he did something and

00:19:13.420 I just completely was like, why, why did he do that? And I didn't ask him that. I was like, that's wrong.

00:19:17.960 You need to do it this way. And he very tactfully responded, you know, this is why I did it. He

00:19:23.900 explained what his reasoning, it was like completely valid. And I was like, that makes perfect sense.

00:19:28.640 I think I could have avoided that whole awkward, it's kind of awkward, not too awkward, we're over

00:19:32.400 it now, you know, we're not holding grudges. But if I just said, can you tell me like why you did it

00:19:36.460 this way? And that would have solved a lot of this.

00:19:38.740 The other, the other thing that I like people to keep in their back pocket is what I refer to as

00:19:46.160 the Apollo 13 theory, which is, if you've seen the movie, one of the first questions that's asked

00:19:52.840 after they've realized that, you know, something has occurred is, okay, what's working? What have we

00:19:59.700 got to work with? What do I like? So if someone is doing something and you need it to change,

00:20:04.220 very often, if you begin with, all right, so here's what I love about what what's happened in

00:20:10.380 the past, you do this really well, you do that really well, I love this, this is great. Here's one

00:20:15.700 thing that's going to need to change. And but because again, you front loaded it with all the

00:20:21.500 things that are working and that make you happy, they can hear your request very differently.

00:20:27.900 Gotcha. And that's, this sounds very similar to the improvisation rule of yes, and

00:20:32.340 yes. And yes, I love that. Everybody should go take an improvisation class, even if it's like

00:20:38.420 the most hideously awkward hour or two of your life, you're going to walk out with so much good

00:20:43.180 information. Yeah, I've heard that. I want to do it. Every time I read about improvisation,

00:20:48.220 like I need to do that, but I never follow through. It's really, again, it's not something I loved,

00:20:52.960 but I'm glad I put myself through it. Yeah. So with the yes and rule, for those who aren't familiar

00:20:58.220 with it, it's instead of an improvisation, instead of denying what someone's done, right? You're like,

00:21:03.880 we're not going to follow along with this. You say, you take what they've done, and then you add your

00:21:08.060 own spin to it. And that's also very helpful. It's something that I want people to think about. If

00:21:14.480 you're in a meeting with a fellow team member, and he or she says something that is like, somehow not

00:21:23.720 exactly correct, but you don't want to be seen as contradicting them or arguing with them.

00:21:30.780 So because you're presenting to other people. So if you could say, if I could add to what Joe just

00:21:39.380 said, and even if what you say directly contradicts what Joe just said, energetically, it comes across

00:21:46.680 for other people as if you and Joe are one big happy family. So there you go. Well, on a related

00:21:53.560 topic, um, it's related, similar to awkward conversations, but how are you supposed to handle

00:21:59.180 what's the best way? And I'm sure you deal with this all the time because you're prepping people

00:22:02.880 for television appearances, but this can happen to people in the job, job interviews, but how do you

00:22:08.300 deal with awkward questions, tough questions that you don't, if you answer it in a certain way,

00:22:15.240 it's going to come off really, really bad. Um, how do you deal with those really hard questions

00:22:19.660 like that? The first thing to do is you, okay, before any meeting or job interview, you have to

00:22:29.160 consider what are the worst three questions I'm going to get. All right, let's think of what is,

00:22:34.540 if everything goes down the tubes, um, you've got to think, think through those three questions.

00:22:41.580 You know, what I always tell my clients is hope is not a strategy, right? It's not like,

00:22:46.460 Oh God, I hope that doesn't come up. It's coming up. So think them through ahead of time.

00:22:52.700 Then when you get the hideously awkward question, you know, what happens is that sometimes we're so

00:22:58.440 nervous that we jump into answering it without taking a breath. So inhale and speak on an exhalation,

00:23:09.400 speaking on an exhalation automatically gives your voice so much more resonance and authority.

00:23:15.760 You know, if you ask me something hideous or, and I go, well, and all of a sudden I sound a little

00:23:21.240 crazy, but if I pause and I say, well, and then, and now all of a sudden I seem like I'm in control.

00:23:31.220 And then the other thing is that, um, I recommend if someone asks you something and your mind goes

00:23:37.980 blank to just say, I'd like to think about that for a second because I want to be sure to give you

00:23:48.040 the best answer possible. Nobody leaves a meeting or a job interview thinking, Oh, I can't believe that

00:23:55.880 guy that wanted to give me the best answer possible. What a jerk, you know? So, so that's your out and

00:24:04.000 then take that moment and think about it. So, but take your time, take your time. All right. Don't

00:24:09.520 get flustered. Yeah. Okay. Well, related to the job interview, one of the tough questions that often

00:24:15.680 comes up for folks is that say, for example, they've been out of, out of work for a while,

00:24:20.220 or maybe they've jumped jobs several times and that always raises red flags for potential employers.

00:24:27.200 How do you answer those questions when they do come up about employment history?

00:24:32.120 Well, there are a couple of things. If, you know, if you sit down with your interviewer and, you know,

00:24:37.780 very often they say to you, okay, well, where shall we start? My recommendation is if you have a

00:24:44.300 resume, that's a little bit quirky, then you say, you know what? I think that if you look at my

00:24:49.460 resume, you'll see that I've moved around a lot in the past few years. So why don't we start there?

00:24:55.340 So take control of it and go to the, go to that. Okay.

00:24:57.880 You want to be on offense rather than on defense. Okay.

00:25:02.180 Because right there, it doesn't matter what you do after that. Your interviewer's like,

00:25:05.960 wow, hang on. This guy's got nerves of steel. So, and then from there, you want to have actually

00:25:15.180 a pretty, you know, a good story about what happened. Maybe you jumped around because you

00:25:21.940 wanted to be challenged and the jobs that you had in the past weren't asking you to grow.

00:25:29.820 So that's one way to, to tell that story. Maybe, you know, you were downsized. That certainly occurs.

00:25:39.780 Yes. What you talk about at that point is I use the time to brush up on skill sets that I'm going

00:25:46.440 to need once you hire me. So there always is a way to talk about your past.

00:25:55.160 And it's about you sounding confident with the way you're going to talk about it and you feeling

00:26:01.320 in control of that story. And what I always tell people is if you can't figure it out, honestly,

00:26:05.980 just give me a call and I will figure it out because I'm really, I'm really good at this.

00:26:10.760 So, yeah.

00:26:11.540 So, but I guess you'd never want to say I jumped job because all my bosses were jerks. That probably

00:26:17.040 would not be it.

00:26:17.780 Okay.

00:26:18.500 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You weren't challenged because, you know, you really wanted to,

00:26:25.300 you know, you have X skill set and you didn't feel it was being utilized. And by the way,

00:26:31.420 I noticed it's something that you require at this new job for which I am now interviewing.

00:26:38.160 So you just present that as, you know, this is a gift with purchase. That's going to make me even

00:26:43.480 more desirable to you. But no, you can never, ever, ever, ever, ever bad mouth your past employer.

00:26:49.500 Okay.

00:26:50.700 It's like going on a date and hearing them bitch about their, I'm sorry, tell him. 1.00

00:26:54.020 You can say that. No, we're not, we're not on the public airwaves.

00:26:57.180 So hearing them speak about badly about their last relationship, you're the only one who ends

00:27:02.600 up sounding, you know, not great.

00:27:05.560 Terrible. They're probably thinking in their head. It's like this, it's probably, it's not the

00:27:10.160 boss. It's like this person's actually got the problem. Okay. Well, anything else that people can

00:27:15.460 do to prep for a job interview? So they really wow the interviewer. So yeah, come up with those

00:27:19.860 three questions that are really difficult prep for them. What else should they do to prep for their job

00:27:25.420 interview? A couple of things. You need to be aware of the trick questions, one of the, or the

00:27:30.580 trick statements. One of those, it seems so innocuous, is so tell me about yourself.

00:27:37.780 I hate that question.

00:27:38.840 Right? This is not an opportunity to talk about yourself. All right. No one wants to know, like,

00:27:45.580 I'm the youngest of six and I grew up in Rhode Island. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. All right.

00:27:50.700 This is about your job description states that you're looking for somebody who can do,

00:27:57.080 you know, X. Not only can I do X, but I can also do Y and Z. So again, this is about how you are

00:28:06.200 going to add value once you're hired. That's the answer to that one. Okay. The other thing I'm

00:28:12.040 warning people about right now is a lot of HR people are stopping interviews halfway through

00:28:18.240 and saying to the interviewee, you know what? I just don't think you're the right fit for this

00:28:24.480 job. Whether they think so or not, they're doing this and they're doing it to see how you handle

00:28:31.740 pressure and if you crack. Because what the HR people are telling me is it's amazing how many

00:28:39.540 people will say at that moment, well, I didn't really think I was a good fit, but I just thought

00:28:44.040 like, okay, no. So you really need to, if somebody says that, be like, well, oh, okay. I, you know

00:28:50.940 what? I guess I'm not making it clear how passionate I am about getting this position. So let me take

00:28:56.860 you through my thinking one more time. But, but yeah, so there, there's another number of pitfalls

00:29:03.600 that, uh, that people should be aware of right now. The thing I heard from a guy who hires all the time

00:29:10.660 for sales jobs is he doesn't call you back until you called him three times. Because if you can't

00:29:19.160 take rejection in the interview process, you're not going to do well as a salesperson.

00:29:25.240 Wow.

00:29:25.880 So yeah.

00:29:27.180 All right. This is, this is, this is like some like crazy, like mind, like psychological.

00:29:31.480 There's so much mind stuff.

00:29:34.000 Mind stuff going on. All right. So keep that in mind. Don't, don't crack and don't, uh,

00:29:38.320 don't succumb to the pressure. Okay. Great stuff. Well, let's, let's shift back to

00:29:42.780 presenting yourself and you had a section on clothing and I know, you know, clothes don't,

00:29:49.060 don't make the man. Right. But they do play a part in how persuasive or influential we are.

00:29:55.260 So what should people be aware of on how they should change their wardrobe maybe, or their,

00:30:01.320 what they wear depending on the audience that they're presenting to?

00:30:04.760 I think, I mean, I think that's the critical piece is you really need to think about the audience

00:30:11.720 you're speaking to, you know, I completely costume change depending on who my client is.

00:30:20.040 Some of my clients, um, really need to see me in a suit and high heels with a, like, you know,

00:30:28.500 a pocketbook that costs as much as a used car that makes them feel so much better.

00:30:33.540 And then some of my clients that makes them feel very tense and they think that all the money that

00:30:38.300 they pay me is going to subsidize my wardrobe. So I have to, you know, do these kind of Superman

00:30:44.360 changes as I move through the day. So it's, it's thinking through, um, who it is that you're talking

00:30:53.300 to. What is their value? What are their values? And how can you read, you know, visually as though,

00:31:00.220 you know, you're already a member of the team, but just as a general rule of thumb, you know,

00:31:06.080 blue is the color that we trust the most and it photographs best. So I have a lot of clothes and,

00:31:14.220 and, and, and different shades of blue. Um, and of those that kind of a cornflower or a French blue

00:31:20.400 is the one that really, really looks well. And, uh, again, traffic court or television,

00:31:25.960 it's going to serve you well. And then, you know, really thanks to, I, you know, all the

00:31:31.720 kinds of ability to videotape yourself ahead of time. If it's an important meeting,

00:31:38.100 take a picture of yourself, um, and, and take a look at what you look like, because sometimes you

00:31:43.860 just have no idea. Uh, so, so get, get that organized. Um, and I also always prefer tailored

00:31:51.820 things. I think people are rarely upset if you're overdressed and they're somewhat upset if you're

00:31:59.060 underdressed. So. Yeah. And the tailored clothing, particularly for men, uh, well tailored suit will

00:32:06.400 really accentuate features that, I don't know, exude dominance in a powerful, and I'm not talking

00:32:12.480 like in a mean way, but like. Well, it just, it shows, it shows an attention to detail. Yeah. You

00:32:19.020 know, if you come in and you look like you slept in your clothes, that that's disquieting to the

00:32:24.040 people, you know, that, that are sitting across from you. Um, but I think, you know, even for,

00:32:30.480 for women as well, I have one client who is a financial wizard and that's great, but she kept 1.00

00:32:37.560 going on TV wearing like a scooped neck t-shirt underneath her blazer. But on television,

00:32:43.880 it looked like she was wearing a leotard and no one wants to take financial advice from somebody 0.99

00:32:49.080 wearing a leotard. Um, so that was, you know, we had, we had to get that organized. So yeah,

00:32:55.760 there's that, there's that commercial I've seen about the power of like how you present yourself.

00:33:00.060 Like it's like for like personal, it's like a investment commercial where they took like this DJ

00:33:04.320 that had dreadlocks and he had goggles and he's wearing like, you know, the typical DJ

00:33:09.000 outfit and they cleaned them up, put a suit on and people, he knew nothing about investments,

00:33:14.540 but like he sat down with people who were interested in investing and he gave the presentation and

00:33:19.000 people like, Oh yeah, I really trust this guy. And he, it was just because he put on a suit and he

00:33:22.600 got a haircut. It's, it's an astonishing thing. Um, and you know, a lot of people will say,

00:33:28.800 well, that's so sad and that's awful. And I'm, you're asking me not to be my authentic

00:33:34.200 self. You know, what I always say is you can be yourself. You can let your freak flag fly

00:33:40.400 once you have the job or once you've made the deal, but the, at the moment, let's stay focused

00:33:48.240 on the objective, get the job, sign the deal. And then, you know, you can do what it is that you

00:33:55.080 want or need to do to express your authentic self. Okay. I like that. Um, so this day and age,

00:34:03.720 I get this request a lot and I've done it too before is requesting to meet people for coffee

00:34:08.580 or for lunch, uh, to either discuss, do an informational interview or even maybe make

00:34:14.540 a pitch. What can people do to make these? They're informal. They seem very informal because

00:34:19.860 it's just, you know, we're going to get coffee, but you make the case that you should do a lot

00:34:23.780 of prep work even for these very informal meetings. So what can people do to make a coffee

00:34:28.600 meetings or lunch meetings more effective? You're never off duty. So yes, don't be,

00:34:33.920 don't be fooled by thinking, you know, it's just coffee or it's just lunch. No, no, no, no, no, no.

00:34:39.220 Um, frankly, honestly, if you want to get someone's attention and get in to see them,

00:34:43.820 I never suggest coffee or lunch. The first thing I say is, can I come in for 15 minutes at the

00:34:50.540 beginning or end of your day? Cause the minute you put an estimated running time on it of 15 minutes,

00:34:56.680 the person's like, Oh, okay. That doesn't sound too onerous. But if you say to somebody,

00:35:02.740 let me take you up for lunch and they're busy. Now that just sounds exhausting. And like,

00:35:07.240 it's going to suck away my afternoon. So honestly, you'll get in to see people a lot more quickly.

00:35:13.680 And then, you know, frankly, they're going to let you talk longer than 15 minutes.

00:35:17.620 But, um, but that's honestly my first way to get past a gatekeeper.

00:35:21.920 However, if, if you are in a social situation, if you are, you know, having coffee or lunch with

00:35:29.260 someone, you know, we all know at this point that you're not supposed to pick up your handheld

00:35:36.700 device during the course of what's occurring. Um, although, you know, you'd be surprised how many

00:35:44.300 people do. Uh, but my rule of thumb is you are presenting from three blocks away because you

00:35:54.260 simply don't know if the other person is watching you. Um, you know, if I've had, uh, people tell me

00:36:02.940 a CEO, CEO, tell me that he was sitting in his office. He looked out the window. He watched a

00:36:09.100 woman get out of her car, brush her hair in the parking lot, and then proceed into the meeting. 1.00

00:36:14.760 And he thought, I can't hire her because I can't have her representing my company if she does her

00:36:20.740 purple personal grooming in a public place. So that's rule one is you're presenting from three

00:36:27.080 blocks away or three miles away, or from the time you step out of your car.

00:36:33.040 After that, it's really just a matter of following those, you know, those kind of kooky rules of

00:36:38.260 etiquette that, that your mother and father, you know, may be brought up once or twice over the

00:36:44.420 dinner table, you know, napkin in your lap, uh, sit up straight, say, please. And thank you.

00:36:50.780 Let the other person order first. Um, you know, my own personal rule of thumb is don't order food.

00:36:59.000 That's difficult to manage. You know, nobody wants to see you playing cat's cradle with the cheese on

00:37:05.620 the onion soup that makes people tense. So, so pick things that you aren't going to, you're going

00:37:11.600 to be able to focus on the conversation. Um, unless, you know, the other thing that I'm a little bit

00:37:17.140 uptight about is unless you're eating habits are the focus of the meal, like don't talk about your

00:37:25.820 paleo. Don't talk about your sugar fears. Don't talk about your gluten intolerant. No,

00:37:32.940 no, no, no, no, no. Let the other person talk about it all they want, but yeah, don't bring

00:37:39.660 that, but people love bringing that stuff up. It's amazing. How many people? Yes. How do you

00:37:45.800 know if there's like, that's an old joke. How do you know if someone's a paleo guy or a vegan guy?

00:37:49.560 It's like, they'll tell you. I believe that. I believe it. All right. Um, well, let's listen

00:37:57.040 on this question and I'm sure there's a lot of people who are listening to this and this is great.

00:37:59.860 These are some great bits of advice, but what do I do if I'm shy, right? And I have a hard time

00:38:07.380 asserting myself, even in a job interview in the workplace or being socially engaging at a cocktail

00:38:14.160 party. Any advice for people who have that sort of that social anxiety that just prevents them from

00:38:19.640 even putting these tips into practice? Again, it sounds incredibly simplistic slash mundane,

00:38:28.900 but you really do have to pick three small talk topics and, you know, it just anything

00:38:37.740 to get the ball rolling. So say you're walking into a networking event, you know, it's as simple

00:38:48.180 as saying to somebody, gosh, how did you hear about this organization? Well, now they get to talk about

00:38:53.320 themselves for the next few minutes. So they're going to like you better. Right. So, so figure out

00:38:59.520 those kinds of things. And, you know, with meetings, it's the same thing. You really do have to pick

00:39:06.580 three small talk topics ahead of time because you can have a great meeting or job interview and then

00:39:11.720 be standing by the elevator and just pick a topic out of thin air. And you're a little bit tired and,

00:39:17.720 and, and what you can just watch the whole thing blow up in your face. So you've got to have that

00:39:25.180 in your back pocket. So it's as small as, gosh, do you recommend any restaurants around here? I'm

00:39:30.460 thinking about going out for dinner afterward. Again, give other people the chance to be the

00:39:35.560 authority and give other people the chance to talk about themselves and they are going to like you

00:39:41.220 without you doing, having to do very much at all. So make it about, again, it's going,

00:39:44.900 make it about the person. Yeah. And it takes the onus off of you. Fantastic. Well,

00:39:50.460 friends, it's been a great conversation. Where can people learn more about your work and what you do?

00:39:55.660 I have a website, which is my name, franciscolejones.com. And on the website,

00:40:02.840 they there's, you know, all kinds of information. I've written three books and I write a weekly blog.

00:40:09.240 So come on over. And then the other thing that's there is I put an ask a question button on my site

00:40:16.100 and it rolls honestly, all the questions I get roll directly to my phone and I will respond. So,

00:40:24.080 you know, if you have a meeting or a job interview or anything coming up and you feel like I might be

00:40:28.240 able to be helpful, please send me a note about it. Um, because this is what I love to do. And, uh,

00:40:35.100 and I'm happy to get back to you and help you figure things out. That's awesome. Well,

00:40:39.720 Francis Cole Jones, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

00:40:43.760 My guest today was Francis Cole Jones. She's the author of the book, How to Wow. And you can find

00:40:47.160 that on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. And for more information about Francis' work,

00:40:51.240 go to franciscolejones.com, all one word. And like she said, you can actually ask her a question

00:40:56.360 about any aspect of personal influence on her site. So you can check that as well.

00:41:00.520 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,

00:41:08.140 make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And if you enjoy

00:41:12.400 this podcast, I'd really appreciate it if you give us review on iTunes or Stitcher. Also tell

00:41:16.500 all your friends about us. I'd really appreciate that. Always, always, I thank you. Thank you for

00:41:20.760 your support. And until the next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.

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The Art of Manliness - December 18, 2015

#164： How to Wow in Relationships & Business

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