#164： How to Wow in Relationships & Business
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Summary
Frances Cole Jones is the author of the book, "How to Wow" and is a self-development coach and public speaker. She teaches and coaches executives and media personalities on how to put their best foot forward so they are more influential.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. So I know
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a lot of people think it's superficial, particularly guys, but the way we present ourselves to
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the world affects the influence that we have on others. It's not just the words that we
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say, but things like our body language, the clothes that we wear, the tone of our voice,
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all work together in personal influence. And so with that in mind, I mean, it would be in our
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interest to just put our best foot forward and present our best selves to the people we interact
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with for business pitches, speeches, lunch meetings, et cetera. I mean, we want to make sure that the
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message we have actually gets across to people because people give us a chance because we're
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presenting ourselves in the best way possible. Well, my guests say that's what she does for a
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living. She teaches and coaches executives, media personalities on how to put their best
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foot forward. So they're more influential. Her name is Frances Cole Jones. She's the author of
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the book, How to Wow. And today on the podcast, we're going to talk about a bunch of tips, tactics,
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things you can do to present your best self to the world. So you can be more influential in speeches,
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business meetings, job interviews, even first dates, right? So without further ado,
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Frances Cole Jones and how to wow. Frances Cole Jones, welcome to the show.
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Thank you so much. So you've written a lot of books, content about self-presentation, public
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speaking, persuasion. But before we get into some of the things you've written about in your book,
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one of them we're going to talk about today is how to wow, which I absolutely love.
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Let's talk a bit about your career and what you do because it's interesting. I was trying to figure
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out how to describe what you do, your job description. How would you describe what you do
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as far as consulting and teaching people how to present their best selves?
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It really depends on the day, but that is it in a nutshell is presenting your best self no matter what
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the situation. So some of my clients are going on television and they're talking about whatever it is
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that they're talking about their product or their stock price. Some of my clients are, you know,
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people who are trying to get back into the workforce after having been out of the workforce for a few
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years. So it really depends. Every day is different, but what's really nice is that the principles are
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always the same. So no matter who you are or what you're doing, you can use this information.
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Gotcha. And how do you answer the question? I, I'm a big believer in presenting your best self,
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but I'm sure there's some naysayers out there saying, this is all inauthentic. It's phony. You
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should just be yourself. Um, and you know, all this, these little tactics you should do that you
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shouldn't really worry about it. How do you respond to people who, who make those sort of, uh,
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arguments? I absolutely want you to be authentic. And if you're not, of course, people are going to pick
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up on that. But I think that even the naysayers will agree that they have days when they feel
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super articulate and powerful, and then they have days where they have trouble stringing a sentence
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together. Um, so my goal is, you know, really that you would have a few tools on the days when perhaps
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you're not your best self, um, that you can pull these out and say, okay, I know that this is more
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helpful. I think it's, you know, it's really the verbal equivalent in many cases of just putting on
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a clean shirt. I like that. I like that example. Great analogy. Cause you don't want to go into any
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type of presentation with mustard or ketchup. No, you know, just spruce yourself up a little bit.
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Okay. So in your book, how to wow, you start off the book talking about the three elements of
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influence in face-to-face contact. What are those three elements and what's their respective amount
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of importance and overall persuasion and presentation to other people?
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Well, there is some controversy around this study. Nonetheless, I love it. Uh, it comes out of UCLA
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and they said that there's, there are three components of your message, verbal, vocal, and visual.
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The people actually only remember about 7% of what is said. 38% of your impact is your tonal quality
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and 55% is what your body's doing while you're speaking. So with that in mind, what I do is,
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okay, let's make what you're going to be saying as memorable as possible. And let's organize your
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tonality and your physicality so that nothing detracts from what you're trying to get done.
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Gotcha. So with that in mind, uh, what are, what are things we can do with our tonality and
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our body language, uh, to improve our influence on other people?
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Well, in terms of tonality, you know, one of the easiest things that I'm doing right now is
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stand when you're speaking. If it's an important phone call, stand when you're talking. Um, you're
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automatically going to have so much more energy and animation in your voice. And the other thing
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that I love is do important phone calls while you are looking in a mirror, because it is impossible
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to look at yourself in the mirror and not amuse yourself. Right. And you're going to smile at
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yourself and you're so funny and you're so charming. So, and your voice is going to follow along with
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all of that. Those are some great tips because I, I have a problem with phone calls personally. I,
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I don't know, I've always treated phone calls like it's a, it's a medium of communication. Just say
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what you got to say and get it done. And my wife's always reminding me, you need to like smile when
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you're talking and don't have such as this, this, this grouch face on, on you. Cause like it reflects
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in your voice. You don't think it would, but it does. It does. And I mean, I really do recommend
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for a lot of my clients, not because they're all indescribably narcissistic, but because it's helpful
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is to have a mirror in your office. And if it's an important call, shut the door and, you know,
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talk to the mirror. So. Okay. So yeah, this is great. If you're doing a job interview or on the
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phone, stand up and look in a mirror. Yeah. In terms of the other things in terms of physicality
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that you can do, it's a very small thing, but it's powerful as we trust you when we can see your
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hands and we don't trust you when we can't, you know, which is why one of the first things they say
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to the, you know, alleged criminal is put your hands where I can see them. So, you know, if
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you're sitting again in a meeting where you're asking for money, or if you're in a job interview
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and you wish to appear trustworthy, just keep your hands on the table. Okay. And what about just
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talking, you know, in just daily interactions, whether you're at a cocktail party, a networking
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event, a date, what are things you can do with your body language to, I don't know, put your best
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foot forward and maybe make people feel more comfortable and at ease around you?
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You know, it's a really seemingly small thing, but how many times have you met somebody at
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anything and they say, I'm really happy to meet you. And I'm like, okay, well, you don't sound happy.
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So you haven't even gotten through how do you do, and you've already come across as insincere.
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So really and truly, when you meet somebody, take that time and connect. And, you know,
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if you're going to say you're happy about something, please sound happy about it.
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Gotcha. And here's a question I have. Maybe you have the answer to this. I think you do.
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Whenever I'm doing public speaking or I'm in a meeting doing a presentation, I never know what
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to do with my hands, right? Like, should I keep them in front of me? Should I move them around a lot,
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gesticulate? Should I hold something? If I'm at a party, like, what do I do with my hands if I don't
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have a drink? And I know I'm probably being overly self-conscious, but there's probably some things
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you can do to ease that amount of self-consciousness, right?
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Yes. What it is, is you just want to get really committed to what it is that you are talking about.
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So, I mean, if you're completely caught up in the story that you're telling, you're not thinking about
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your hands. And, you know, it's the same way. A lot of people hire me to get rid of the ums and
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things like that in their speech. But the same thing will happen if you're totally committed to
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what you're saying. Those drop away naturally. So, I guess what I would say is think less about
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your hands and more, again, just about really connecting both to the person or the audience
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that you're speaking to and to what it is that you're saying. And then, again, it's just,
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it's effortless. It drops away. You know, I mean, I'm sure if you're, if you're talking to your wife
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and you're telling a story about something that's made you crazy and then this happened and then
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that happened and then you are not thinking about what your hands are doing. No, not.
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So, you want to get that committed. So, that's the key. It seems like storytelling
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Storytelling is critical. Storytelling keeps you away from what's known in my business as useless
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modifiers. Like, you know, it's great. It's amazing. It's incredible. It's awesome. And
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nothing happens in my brain when you say that. You know, are you talking about your cell phone?
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Are you talking about your sandwich? Nothing. So, but if you tell me a story about why something
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is, then automatically it's more memorable and more interesting. You know, and again, this works,
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you know, if I have a client who's talking about their product or if you're in a job interview,
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you know, a common job interview question is, you know, tell me about your greatest strength
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and, you know, nobody's going to remember, well, I'm just a really great leader. I'm just a really
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awesome leader. I really love to lead. Nothing. No. You know, it has to be, there was this time and
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this occurred and this was the situation and this is how I took charge of it and this was the outcome
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and yay for me. And that's, you know, that's a story that your listener can repeat. So, you really,
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you just have to have, you know, they don't, I don't want them to be long. Please don't make
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them long, very short, but, um, but stories will help you. Okay. So yeah, not even, don't even use
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stories for, uh, job things, but also like have a, some stories lined up that you could tell in just
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casual social encounters as well. Absolutely. You know, one of my things is if you're in a casual
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social, a lot of times people will introduce, you'll introduce two people and you'll say,
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oh my God, you guys are going to love each other. Okay. Now the two people are just looking at you
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like they have nowhere to go with that. Right. Because maybe, maybe they're not feeling it.
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They're not feeling the love. So, but if you say this is so-and-so he and I met when X occurred and
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this is so-and-so and she and I met when, you know, Y occurred and both of you, you know, did the
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following and now they have common ground. So it's just a much better way to make an introduction.
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Okay. And you kind of hit on this a little bit about the words we say. So according to the UCLA
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study, 7% of what we say, uh, contributes to overall persuasion, but there are some things we
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should avoid saying. So you mentioned the ums and the uhs, try to reduce that. And then we talked
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about these useless modifiers. If those are words we should avoid to be persuasive, what are some words
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we should include to build rapport and be more persuasive with the people we interact with?
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Well, Yale university did a study of the 12 most persuasive words in the English language
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and the most persuasive word in the English language is you. So the more that you can,
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when you're talking to people, be like, as I'm sure, you know, as I'm sure you've heard when I was
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talking about you today and just putting everything in that context, because at the end of the day,
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it really doesn't matter who you are. And it is, you know, part of my job to tell, you know,
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people who think they're incredibly important, that no one cares about them. Nobody cares about
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you. What they care about is themselves and how you are going to make their life better.
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So if you're walking in and saying, I wanted to talk to you today, well, because this and this and
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this, then all of a sudden people's ears, you know, they perk up. The other study that I talk about a
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lot is Ellen Langer, who's a social psychologist out of Harvard, did a study that showed that there's
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one word that increases the possibility of cooperation from 60 to 94%. And that word is
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because. So I wanted to talk to you today because. Giving people, again, the because behind any
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request that you're making. Why are you making me sit through this? You need to articulate that.
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I think I've seen that study about the because. And it was kind of bizarre because it was,
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the experiment was, if I'm correct, if I'm remembering correctly, it was, they asked someone
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to cut in front of a copy line, like get into the front and say, the one person said, I need to,
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can I cut in front of you? And everyone said, no, of course you can't like wait in line. But if people
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just said, because, and like some random reason, didn't even be connected to anything, like people
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complied. Like you can say, because I need to, can I cut in front of you? Because I have to make tea
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in five minutes. People are like, okay. This is what I always, you know, again, I tell my clients,
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if someone cuts the line at the grocery store, you're pissed off. But if they say, do you mind
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if I cut the line because I'm late to pick up my kids at school, you're going to let the line cut go.
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You'll still be pissed about it, but you'll let it go. So yeah. So yeah. Have a reason. So use you.
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Yeah. You and because are very important. So I think one thing that people often feel
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self-conscious about is introducing themselves, whether it's their first day at the job or at a
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networking event or a conference, what's the best way to introduce yourself that will leave a lasting
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impression yet at the same time doesn't feel like, you know, the, the stereotypical elevator pitch
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where you, you know, it sounds like you memorize this and you're just trying to get your pitch into
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me. Um, how can you introduce yourself, but be more memorable? Again, it's about telling a story
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about why, why is what you're talking about going to make the other person's life better?
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So if I were to say to you, Oh my God, I have the most amazing book. It's just, it's such a wonderful
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book. I wrote it. It took me this amount of months to write it. And you know, this is my agent said
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this about it. And my nanny said this about it. And you're thinking to yourself, I don't care.
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Right. But if I say to you, you know what? I wrote a book and I know that right now you have a new
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business and part of the work of your new business is finding new clients. So what I'm hoping is that
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I have a few techniques up my sleeve that might be useful to you. And I wrote them down in a book.
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So, you know, you want to back end it with what's important to you and you want to front load it with
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why the other person should care. Okay. And couched in a story. It sounds like you're telling a story.
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Yes. And the story is about the person you're talking to. The story is not about yourself.
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Yeah. You had this great, yeah, you had this great line. I've been thinking about it more and more
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is that everyone's a hero in their own world. Right. Right. And so you got to think about that
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when you're talking to people. It's like, let them try to figure out how is what I have to offer
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going to help them advance in their own hero's journey. Right. Yeah. I actually pulled that from
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Mike Myers during an actor inside the actor's studio interview. He said, every villain is the hero of his
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own story. So even if what someone is doing is completely incomprehensible to you, if you can just
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try to figure out, okay, as crazy as it seems, they think they're on the side of right and order
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and speak into that a little bit. Yeah. That's a good reminder because I often think,
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I do this too, whenever someone does something just absolutely nuts, you think, well, they're just
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doing this because they know it's wrong, but they're still doing it. Right. But no, they think
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what they're absolutely doing is right, correct, et cetera. Yes. Well, here's the question. This leads
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to another question. How do you un-awkwardly correct people? They might be wrong. They may have
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misspoken or they're doing something that might be incorrect. This probably comes up at work all the
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time. Someone doesn't follow protocol or they're just being unintentionally annoying or whatever.
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How can you un-awkwardly correct them without making hard feelings a thing? I think the first
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thing to do is double check your own hearing and your own perception. So that's a really easy way to
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do it. So if somebody says something preposterous to say, okay, hang on a sec. I just want to make
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sure that I'm understanding you correctly. What I thought I heard you say is X. And sometimes
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when they hear you say it out loud, they realize that's not right. So that's an easy way to do it.
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And they're like, no, no, you misunderstood me. If you say it again and they say, oh, yes,
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that's exactly what I want you to do. You always want to take the onus on yourself. You want to say,
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okay, so I'm going to, it sounds a little bit like I'm quibbling with you, but it was my understanding
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that the goal today was X. And I'm unclear on how this is going to help us accomplish that.
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So again, you know, it's not because you're difficult or argumentative, you're just confused
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and you're trying to arrive at a solution. But just to keep circling back and trying to get the
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other person, if they can, to dig a little bit deeper into, okay, but what is the intention for
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the day? Because sometimes people do have the same goal. They just have very, very different ways of
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getting there. Another super useful, incredibly useful question is if someone's doing something
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that just makes your head explode, before you correct them, you can say, can you tell me why
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you're doing it that way? Because they might have a reason that you haven't thought of, you know,
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so that's yay. Or they might not understand what it is you're trying to achieve. And then that's,
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you've, but you've at least honored their process by inquiring first, if they have a process.
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Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. I actually, that, after I read that, that could have come in
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handy before, a couple of weeks ago, I have one of my editors works for me and he did something and
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I just completely was like, why, why did he do that? And I didn't ask him that. I was like, that's wrong.
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You need to do it this way. And he very tactfully responded, you know, this is why I did it. He
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explained what his reasoning, it was like completely valid. And I was like, that makes perfect sense.
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I think I could have avoided that whole awkward, it's kind of awkward, not too awkward, we're over
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it now, you know, we're not holding grudges. But if I just said, can you tell me like why you did it
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this way? And that would have solved a lot of this.
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The other, the other thing that I like people to keep in their back pocket is what I refer to as
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the Apollo 13 theory, which is, if you've seen the movie, one of the first questions that's asked
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after they've realized that, you know, something has occurred is, okay, what's working? What have we
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got to work with? What do I like? So if someone is doing something and you need it to change,
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very often, if you begin with, all right, so here's what I love about what what's happened in
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the past, you do this really well, you do that really well, I love this, this is great. Here's one
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thing that's going to need to change. And but because again, you front loaded it with all the
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things that are working and that make you happy, they can hear your request very differently.
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Gotcha. And that's, this sounds very similar to the improvisation rule of yes, and
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yes. And yes, I love that. Everybody should go take an improvisation class, even if it's like
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the most hideously awkward hour or two of your life, you're going to walk out with so much good
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information. Yeah, I've heard that. I want to do it. Every time I read about improvisation,
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like I need to do that, but I never follow through. It's really, again, it's not something I loved,
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but I'm glad I put myself through it. Yeah. So with the yes and rule, for those who aren't familiar
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with it, it's instead of an improvisation, instead of denying what someone's done, right? You're like,
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we're not going to follow along with this. You say, you take what they've done, and then you add your
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own spin to it. And that's also very helpful. It's something that I want people to think about. If
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you're in a meeting with a fellow team member, and he or she says something that is like, somehow not
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exactly correct, but you don't want to be seen as contradicting them or arguing with them.
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So because you're presenting to other people. So if you could say, if I could add to what Joe just
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said, and even if what you say directly contradicts what Joe just said, energetically, it comes across
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for other people as if you and Joe are one big happy family. So there you go. Well, on a related
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topic, um, it's related, similar to awkward conversations, but how are you supposed to handle
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what's the best way? And I'm sure you deal with this all the time because you're prepping people
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for television appearances, but this can happen to people in the job, job interviews, but how do you
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deal with awkward questions, tough questions that you don't, if you answer it in a certain way,
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it's going to come off really, really bad. Um, how do you deal with those really hard questions
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like that? The first thing to do is you, okay, before any meeting or job interview, you have to
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consider what are the worst three questions I'm going to get. All right, let's think of what is,
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if everything goes down the tubes, um, you've got to think, think through those three questions.
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You know, what I always tell my clients is hope is not a strategy, right? It's not like,
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Oh God, I hope that doesn't come up. It's coming up. So think them through ahead of time.
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Then when you get the hideously awkward question, you know, what happens is that sometimes we're so
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nervous that we jump into answering it without taking a breath. So inhale and speak on an exhalation,
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speaking on an exhalation automatically gives your voice so much more resonance and authority.
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You know, if you ask me something hideous or, and I go, well, and all of a sudden I sound a little
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crazy, but if I pause and I say, well, and then, and now all of a sudden I seem like I'm in control.
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And then the other thing is that, um, I recommend if someone asks you something and your mind goes
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blank to just say, I'd like to think about that for a second because I want to be sure to give you
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the best answer possible. Nobody leaves a meeting or a job interview thinking, Oh, I can't believe that
00:23:55.880
guy that wanted to give me the best answer possible. What a jerk, you know? So, so that's your out and
00:24:04.000
then take that moment and think about it. So, but take your time, take your time. All right. Don't
00:24:09.520
get flustered. Yeah. Okay. Well, related to the job interview, one of the tough questions that often
00:24:15.680
comes up for folks is that say, for example, they've been out of, out of work for a while,
00:24:20.220
or maybe they've jumped jobs several times and that always raises red flags for potential employers.
00:24:27.200
How do you answer those questions when they do come up about employment history?
00:24:32.120
Well, there are a couple of things. If, you know, if you sit down with your interviewer and, you know,
00:24:37.780
very often they say to you, okay, well, where shall we start? My recommendation is if you have a
00:24:44.300
resume, that's a little bit quirky, then you say, you know what? I think that if you look at my
00:24:49.460
resume, you'll see that I've moved around a lot in the past few years. So why don't we start there?
00:24:55.340
So take control of it and go to the, go to that. Okay.
00:24:57.880
You want to be on offense rather than on defense. Okay.
00:25:02.180
Because right there, it doesn't matter what you do after that. Your interviewer's like,
00:25:05.960
wow, hang on. This guy's got nerves of steel. So, and then from there, you want to have actually
00:25:15.180
a pretty, you know, a good story about what happened. Maybe you jumped around because you
00:25:21.940
wanted to be challenged and the jobs that you had in the past weren't asking you to grow.
00:25:29.820
So that's one way to, to tell that story. Maybe, you know, you were downsized. That certainly occurs.
00:25:39.780
Yes. What you talk about at that point is I use the time to brush up on skill sets that I'm going
00:25:46.440
to need once you hire me. So there always is a way to talk about your past.
00:25:55.160
And it's about you sounding confident with the way you're going to talk about it and you feeling
00:26:01.320
in control of that story. And what I always tell people is if you can't figure it out, honestly,
00:26:05.980
just give me a call and I will figure it out because I'm really, I'm really good at this.
00:26:11.540
So, but I guess you'd never want to say I jumped job because all my bosses were jerks. That probably
00:26:18.500
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You weren't challenged because, you know, you really wanted to,
00:26:25.300
you know, you have X skill set and you didn't feel it was being utilized. And by the way,
00:26:31.420
I noticed it's something that you require at this new job for which I am now interviewing.
00:26:38.160
So you just present that as, you know, this is a gift with purchase. That's going to make me even
00:26:43.480
more desirable to you. But no, you can never, ever, ever, ever, ever bad mouth your past employer.
00:26:50.700
It's like going on a date and hearing them bitch about their, I'm sorry, tell him.
00:26:54.020
You can say that. No, we're not, we're not on the public airwaves.
00:26:57.180
So hearing them speak about badly about their last relationship, you're the only one who ends
00:27:05.560
Terrible. They're probably thinking in their head. It's like this, it's probably, it's not the
00:27:10.160
boss. It's like this person's actually got the problem. Okay. Well, anything else that people can
00:27:15.460
do to prep for a job interview? So they really wow the interviewer. So yeah, come up with those
00:27:19.860
three questions that are really difficult prep for them. What else should they do to prep for their job
00:27:25.420
interview? A couple of things. You need to be aware of the trick questions, one of the, or the
00:27:30.580
trick statements. One of those, it seems so innocuous, is so tell me about yourself.
00:27:38.840
Right? This is not an opportunity to talk about yourself. All right. No one wants to know, like,
00:27:45.580
I'm the youngest of six and I grew up in Rhode Island. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. All right.
00:27:50.700
This is about your job description states that you're looking for somebody who can do,
00:27:57.080
you know, X. Not only can I do X, but I can also do Y and Z. So again, this is about how you are
00:28:06.200
going to add value once you're hired. That's the answer to that one. Okay. The other thing I'm
00:28:12.040
warning people about right now is a lot of HR people are stopping interviews halfway through
00:28:18.240
and saying to the interviewee, you know what? I just don't think you're the right fit for this
00:28:24.480
job. Whether they think so or not, they're doing this and they're doing it to see how you handle
00:28:31.740
pressure and if you crack. Because what the HR people are telling me is it's amazing how many
00:28:39.540
people will say at that moment, well, I didn't really think I was a good fit, but I just thought
00:28:44.040
like, okay, no. So you really need to, if somebody says that, be like, well, oh, okay. I, you know
00:28:50.940
what? I guess I'm not making it clear how passionate I am about getting this position. So let me take
00:28:56.860
you through my thinking one more time. But, but yeah, so there, there's another number of pitfalls
00:29:03.600
that, uh, that people should be aware of right now. The thing I heard from a guy who hires all the time
00:29:10.660
for sales jobs is he doesn't call you back until you called him three times. Because if you can't
00:29:19.160
take rejection in the interview process, you're not going to do well as a salesperson.
00:29:27.180
All right. This is, this is, this is like some like crazy, like mind, like psychological.
00:29:34.000
Mind stuff going on. All right. So keep that in mind. Don't, don't crack and don't, uh,
00:29:38.320
don't succumb to the pressure. Okay. Great stuff. Well, let's, let's shift back to
00:29:42.780
presenting yourself and you had a section on clothing and I know, you know, clothes don't,
00:29:49.060
don't make the man. Right. But they do play a part in how persuasive or influential we are.
00:29:55.260
So what should people be aware of on how they should change their wardrobe maybe, or their,
00:30:01.320
what they wear depending on the audience that they're presenting to?
00:30:04.760
I think, I mean, I think that's the critical piece is you really need to think about the audience
00:30:11.720
you're speaking to, you know, I completely costume change depending on who my client is.
00:30:20.040
Some of my clients, um, really need to see me in a suit and high heels with a, like, you know,
00:30:28.500
a pocketbook that costs as much as a used car that makes them feel so much better.
00:30:33.540
And then some of my clients that makes them feel very tense and they think that all the money that
00:30:38.300
they pay me is going to subsidize my wardrobe. So I have to, you know, do these kind of Superman
00:30:44.360
changes as I move through the day. So it's, it's thinking through, um, who it is that you're talking
00:30:53.300
to. What is their value? What are their values? And how can you read, you know, visually as though,
00:31:00.220
you know, you're already a member of the team, but just as a general rule of thumb, you know,
00:31:06.080
blue is the color that we trust the most and it photographs best. So I have a lot of clothes and,
00:31:14.220
and, and, and different shades of blue. Um, and of those that kind of a cornflower or a French blue
00:31:20.400
is the one that really, really looks well. And, uh, again, traffic court or television,
00:31:25.960
it's going to serve you well. And then, you know, really thanks to, I, you know, all the
00:31:31.720
kinds of ability to videotape yourself ahead of time. If it's an important meeting,
00:31:38.100
take a picture of yourself, um, and, and take a look at what you look like, because sometimes you
00:31:43.860
just have no idea. Uh, so, so get, get that organized. Um, and I also always prefer tailored
00:31:51.820
things. I think people are rarely upset if you're overdressed and they're somewhat upset if you're
00:31:59.060
underdressed. So. Yeah. And the tailored clothing, particularly for men, uh, well tailored suit will
00:32:06.400
really accentuate features that, I don't know, exude dominance in a powerful, and I'm not talking
00:32:12.480
like in a mean way, but like. Well, it just, it shows, it shows an attention to detail. Yeah. You
00:32:19.020
know, if you come in and you look like you slept in your clothes, that that's disquieting to the
00:32:24.040
people, you know, that, that are sitting across from you. Um, but I think, you know, even for,
00:32:30.480
for women as well, I have one client who is a financial wizard and that's great, but she kept
00:32:37.560
going on TV wearing like a scooped neck t-shirt underneath her blazer. But on television,
00:32:43.880
it looked like she was wearing a leotard and no one wants to take financial advice from somebody
00:32:49.080
wearing a leotard. Um, so that was, you know, we had, we had to get that organized. So yeah,
00:32:55.760
there's that, there's that commercial I've seen about the power of like how you present yourself.
00:33:00.060
Like it's like for like personal, it's like a investment commercial where they took like this DJ
00:33:04.320
that had dreadlocks and he had goggles and he's wearing like, you know, the typical DJ
00:33:09.000
outfit and they cleaned them up, put a suit on and people, he knew nothing about investments,
00:33:14.540
but like he sat down with people who were interested in investing and he gave the presentation and
00:33:19.000
people like, Oh yeah, I really trust this guy. And he, it was just because he put on a suit and he
00:33:22.600
got a haircut. It's, it's an astonishing thing. Um, and you know, a lot of people will say,
00:33:28.800
well, that's so sad and that's awful. And I'm, you're asking me not to be my authentic
00:33:34.200
self. You know, what I always say is you can be yourself. You can let your freak flag fly
00:33:40.400
once you have the job or once you've made the deal, but the, at the moment, let's stay focused
00:33:48.240
on the objective, get the job, sign the deal. And then, you know, you can do what it is that you
00:33:55.080
want or need to do to express your authentic self. Okay. I like that. Um, so this day and age,
00:34:03.720
I get this request a lot and I've done it too before is requesting to meet people for coffee
00:34:08.580
or for lunch, uh, to either discuss, do an informational interview or even maybe make
00:34:14.540
a pitch. What can people do to make these? They're informal. They seem very informal because
00:34:19.860
it's just, you know, we're going to get coffee, but you make the case that you should do a lot
00:34:23.780
of prep work even for these very informal meetings. So what can people do to make a coffee
00:34:28.600
meetings or lunch meetings more effective? You're never off duty. So yes, don't be,
00:34:33.920
don't be fooled by thinking, you know, it's just coffee or it's just lunch. No, no, no, no, no, no.
00:34:39.220
Um, frankly, honestly, if you want to get someone's attention and get in to see them,
00:34:43.820
I never suggest coffee or lunch. The first thing I say is, can I come in for 15 minutes at the
00:34:50.540
beginning or end of your day? Cause the minute you put an estimated running time on it of 15 minutes,
00:34:56.680
the person's like, Oh, okay. That doesn't sound too onerous. But if you say to somebody,
00:35:02.740
let me take you up for lunch and they're busy. Now that just sounds exhausting. And like,
00:35:07.240
it's going to suck away my afternoon. So honestly, you'll get in to see people a lot more quickly.
00:35:13.680
And then, you know, frankly, they're going to let you talk longer than 15 minutes.
00:35:17.620
But, um, but that's honestly my first way to get past a gatekeeper.
00:35:21.920
However, if, if you are in a social situation, if you are, you know, having coffee or lunch with
00:35:29.260
someone, you know, we all know at this point that you're not supposed to pick up your handheld
00:35:36.700
device during the course of what's occurring. Um, although, you know, you'd be surprised how many
00:35:44.300
people do. Uh, but my rule of thumb is you are presenting from three blocks away because you
00:35:54.260
simply don't know if the other person is watching you. Um, you know, if I've had, uh, people tell me
00:36:02.940
a CEO, CEO, tell me that he was sitting in his office. He looked out the window. He watched a
00:36:09.100
woman get out of her car, brush her hair in the parking lot, and then proceed into the meeting.
00:36:14.760
And he thought, I can't hire her because I can't have her representing my company if she does her
00:36:20.740
purple personal grooming in a public place. So that's rule one is you're presenting from three
00:36:27.080
blocks away or three miles away, or from the time you step out of your car.
00:36:33.040
After that, it's really just a matter of following those, you know, those kind of kooky rules of
00:36:38.260
etiquette that, that your mother and father, you know, may be brought up once or twice over the
00:36:44.420
dinner table, you know, napkin in your lap, uh, sit up straight, say, please. And thank you.
00:36:50.780
Let the other person order first. Um, you know, my own personal rule of thumb is don't order food.
00:36:59.000
That's difficult to manage. You know, nobody wants to see you playing cat's cradle with the cheese on
00:37:05.620
the onion soup that makes people tense. So, so pick things that you aren't going to, you're going
00:37:11.600
to be able to focus on the conversation. Um, unless, you know, the other thing that I'm a little bit
00:37:17.140
uptight about is unless you're eating habits are the focus of the meal, like don't talk about your
00:37:25.820
paleo. Don't talk about your sugar fears. Don't talk about your gluten intolerant. No,
00:37:32.940
no, no, no, no, no. Let the other person talk about it all they want, but yeah, don't bring
00:37:39.660
that, but people love bringing that stuff up. It's amazing. How many people? Yes. How do you
00:37:45.800
know if there's like, that's an old joke. How do you know if someone's a paleo guy or a vegan guy?
00:37:49.560
It's like, they'll tell you. I believe that. I believe it. All right. Um, well, let's listen
00:37:57.040
on this question and I'm sure there's a lot of people who are listening to this and this is great.
00:37:59.860
These are some great bits of advice, but what do I do if I'm shy, right? And I have a hard time
00:38:07.380
asserting myself, even in a job interview in the workplace or being socially engaging at a cocktail
00:38:14.160
party. Any advice for people who have that sort of that social anxiety that just prevents them from
00:38:19.640
even putting these tips into practice? Again, it sounds incredibly simplistic slash mundane,
00:38:28.900
but you really do have to pick three small talk topics and, you know, it just anything
00:38:37.740
to get the ball rolling. So say you're walking into a networking event, you know, it's as simple
00:38:48.180
as saying to somebody, gosh, how did you hear about this organization? Well, now they get to talk about
00:38:53.320
themselves for the next few minutes. So they're going to like you better. Right. So, so figure out
00:38:59.520
those kinds of things. And, you know, with meetings, it's the same thing. You really do have to pick
00:39:06.580
three small talk topics ahead of time because you can have a great meeting or job interview and then
00:39:11.720
be standing by the elevator and just pick a topic out of thin air. And you're a little bit tired and,
00:39:17.720
and, and what you can just watch the whole thing blow up in your face. So you've got to have that
00:39:25.180
in your back pocket. So it's as small as, gosh, do you recommend any restaurants around here? I'm
00:39:30.460
thinking about going out for dinner afterward. Again, give other people the chance to be the
00:39:35.560
authority and give other people the chance to talk about themselves and they are going to like you
00:39:41.220
without you doing, having to do very much at all. So make it about, again, it's going,
00:39:44.900
make it about the person. Yeah. And it takes the onus off of you. Fantastic. Well,
00:39:50.460
friends, it's been a great conversation. Where can people learn more about your work and what you do?
00:39:55.660
I have a website, which is my name, franciscolejones.com. And on the website,
00:40:02.840
they there's, you know, all kinds of information. I've written three books and I write a weekly blog.
00:40:09.240
So come on over. And then the other thing that's there is I put an ask a question button on my site
00:40:16.100
and it rolls honestly, all the questions I get roll directly to my phone and I will respond. So,
00:40:24.080
you know, if you have a meeting or a job interview or anything coming up and you feel like I might be
00:40:28.240
able to be helpful, please send me a note about it. Um, because this is what I love to do. And, uh,
00:40:35.100
and I'm happy to get back to you and help you figure things out. That's awesome. Well,
00:40:39.720
Francis Cole Jones, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.
00:40:43.760
My guest today was Francis Cole Jones. She's the author of the book, How to Wow. And you can find
00:40:47.160
that on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. And for more information about Francis' work,
00:40:51.240
go to franciscolejones.com, all one word. And like she said, you can actually ask her a question
00:40:56.360
about any aspect of personal influence on her site. So you can check that as well.
00:41:00.520
Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,
00:41:08.140
make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And if you enjoy
00:41:12.400
this podcast, I'd really appreciate it if you give us review on iTunes or Stitcher. Also tell
00:41:16.500
all your friends about us. I'd really appreciate that. Always, always, I thank you. Thank you for
00:41:20.760
your support. And until the next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.