The Art of Manliness - #165： Better Conversations on Money and Marriage

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:18.920 One of the biggest causes of contention in a marriage is money. 0.74

00:00:23.620 And the reason why that is, is because when people come into a marriage, they come in 0.99

00:00:28.260 with often very different ideas of how money should be managed or the role it should play

00:00:34.860 in your life.

00:00:35.420 So, you know, you might have someone who's a spendthrift who likes to get much circulate

00:00:40.140 money into the system while you have others who are, they're frugal and they want to, they're

00:00:44.000 a tightwad and that can really cause contention. 1.00

00:00:47.100 Or you might have individuals who they want to spend their money on different things, right?

00:00:53.120 And you have to figure out how to reconcile those two things.

00:00:56.700 So if you're married, you understand, you probably have had those arguments or discussions

00:01:00.260 with your significant other about money.

00:01:02.640 If you are about to get married, this is a conversation you need to have with your prospective

00:01:06.420 spouse so that you guys are on the same page when it comes to finances so you can hit the

00:01:11.080 ground running with your marriage and avoid some of those really big blow up arguments

00:01:15.560 that often happen about money.

00:01:17.180 Anyways, my guests today on the podcast are a couple who had one of those big financial

00:01:22.220 catastrophes right at the beginning of the relationship.

00:01:24.500 And they had to figure out a way to navigate through it.

00:01:27.100 And in the process, they learned a lot along the way.

00:01:29.900 And they wrote a book sharing what they learned.

00:01:31.640 Their names are Derek and Carrie Olson.

00:01:33.220 They're a married couple.

00:01:34.260 And they're the authors of the book, One Bed, One Bank Account, Better Conversations on Money

00:01:39.100 and Marriage.

00:01:40.120 And today's podcast, we discuss tips on how to avoid the big brawls about money in a marriage

00:01:47.640 or a relationship.

00:01:48.320 And what it all comes down to is conversations.

00:01:52.080 And in the process of discussing money, what we'll find out is that it can actually, you'll

00:01:56.440 be discussing other aspects of your relationship that aren't directly related to money or related

00:02:00.640 to money, but are bigger picture.

00:02:03.220 Really great podcast, a lot of great takeaways.

00:02:05.280 So without further ado, Derek and Carrie Olson, One Bed, One Bank Account.

00:02:09.160 All right, Derek and Carrie Olson, welcome to the show.

00:02:20.420 Thank you so much.

00:02:21.260 Thanks for having us.

00:02:22.060 All right.

00:02:22.240 So you are a husband-wife team who started a podcast or a book about marriage and money.

00:02:28.620 And this is possibly a tense subject for a lot of our listeners out there.

00:02:32.900 There's probably a lot of guys out there who've had a lot of fights with their wives or arguments 0.61

00:02:37.160 or maybe just tense, awkward silence about money.

00:02:41.560 Couldn't you tell us why you two wrote this book?

00:02:43.660 I'm sure like you're like most people who, the reason you write this book, there was a

00:02:46.400 moment in your relationship where you're like, we had a problem.

00:02:49.120 We solved it.

00:02:50.240 Here's how we did it.

00:02:50.900 Is that what happened?

00:02:52.480 Right.

00:02:52.640 I don't know about solving it, but we definitely had a problem that we addressed.

00:02:57.720 And I'll tell the short story, the short version.

00:03:00.900 Whenever we were engaged to be married, Carrie owned a house that was in danger of being foreclosed on. 1.00

00:03:09.920 And it was like literally within a month of our wedding date, it was going to be foreclosed on.

00:03:14.360 And so here she is bringing that into the marriage.

00:03:17.660 And I'm on the receiving end going, holy cow, like that's crazy.

00:03:22.340 I never imagined that I would have a foreclosure on my hands and sort of inheriting that through marriage.

00:03:31.900 So as we were engaged in planning our wedding and all of that, we were also fighting this enormous financial battle.

00:03:40.920 And the cool thing about fighting that together was that we learned so much about each other and about our history, our family history, our past, and just the way we handled conflicts and our views on money and all that kind of stuff.

00:03:59.380 And ultimately, what we ended up doing was a short sale, which is still terrible financially, but not quite as bad as a foreclosure.

00:04:08.480 And through that whole process, the surprising thing was that it actually turned out really good for our relationship, which I was not really expecting.

00:04:17.200 But luckily enough, we approached this problem as a team and we worked together to handle this situation.

00:04:27.540 And I just couldn't believe how much of a positive impact it had on our relationship.

00:04:33.920 And so going from that, we started coaching some other couples and we helped other couples through similar situations.

00:04:42.640 And then we've had more couples since then reach out to us and share their story with us.

00:04:49.060 And so that's where the book came from.

00:04:52.400 And that's basically why we wrote the book, to help other couples.

00:04:55.980 Awesome.

00:04:56.300 So that's intense.

00:04:57.060 Like a short sale, people get divorced over that sort of thing.

00:05:01.940 And you guys are doing it while you're getting married.

00:05:05.340 So, I mean, what was the key?

00:05:06.740 Was it just an attitude adjustment or was it communication?

00:05:11.560 Was that like the key to this whole entire process?

00:05:15.260 Yeah.

00:05:15.620 So it definitely didn't start off perfect.

00:05:18.400 You know, Derek told the short story of how in the end it ended up being really great for us.

00:05:23.700 But there were definitely those awkward moments, those feelings of, you know, insecurity and shame, even embarrassment.

00:05:31.300 And, you know, I'm sure Derek felt very, you know, it was just very unfair for him, you know, to have to, you know, he had no debt whatsoever.

00:05:39.600 And, you know, by marrying me, he was, like he said, inheriting that.

00:05:44.560 So it didn't start off easy.

00:05:46.840 I think the commitment to, you know, looking at each other and saying we're going to fight this together, that was key.

00:05:53.980 Because when we realized that the enemy wasn't each other, but the enemy was the situation, it was the, you know, we could kind of focus our energy on the, you know, the short sell and the process instead of each other.

00:06:05.620 And that was a huge thing for us was when we realized, okay, this wall doesn't have to be between us.

00:06:10.360 We can be both on the same side of the wall and put the situation on the other side and focus our energy there.

00:06:16.440 So I think that was really the kind of the turning point for us when we stopped kind of like blaming each other or even, you know, being totally defensive.

00:06:24.140 And we were able to focus on the problem and put our energy there.

00:06:28.800 Okay.

00:06:29.020 Well, we're going to talk more about how you do that.

00:06:30.920 It's easy to say, like, that's what we got to do.

00:06:32.620 But then it's like, that's really hard to put into practice.

00:06:35.660 But I'm curious, in your experience, like in your own experience, but also in the experience of coaching other couples,

00:06:41.460 what are the biggest conflicts about money that you see pop up over and over and over again?

00:06:48.040 Well, I think it just all kind of stems from a lack of communication and a bit of, you know, what's mine is mine.

00:06:55.880 And don't try to tell me what to do with my money, which is understandable.

00:07:00.780 Nobody really wants to be told what to do or with money.

00:07:04.340 A lot of times it's told what not to do, you know, what you can't do.

00:07:07.540 But like we've seen time and time again, when you get in there and start talking about it and create a budget and get on a plan and start communicating,

00:07:17.520 it's not as scary as it might sound and it's not as just, you know, restrictive as it might sound.

00:07:24.900 Do you want to tell the story about that one couple?

00:07:28.500 Well, sure.

00:07:29.280 Yeah, because, you know, and I can speak from my own personal experience, too.

00:07:32.640 I think one of the hugest issues is not feeling like you can be honest with each other or feeling like you're going to be judged.

00:07:39.420 So you feel like you have to hide, which is never a good thing to bring into a relationship at any point.

00:07:45.860 So, yeah, I don't know if we necessarily need to tell the story.

00:07:50.700 Right.

00:07:51.060 And what I think is interesting, you've kind of hinted to this as well, is that, you know, money, money is this controversial.

00:07:58.520 And the reason I think money is so controversial is because that it's so tied up, even though we say, you know, we talk about, oh, money is not that important.

00:08:04.520 But like it really is.

00:08:05.500 It's tied up into our aspirations.

00:08:07.800 It's tied into our values.

00:08:09.380 It's tied into memories.

00:08:11.720 Emotions.

00:08:12.180 Yeah, emotions.

00:08:12.900 And so, like, you know, you guys talked about this a little bit about the Christmas gifting, right, in your family, Carrie, as opposed to Derek's family.

00:08:22.000 And, like, you were newly married and, like, Carrie wanted to set aside this giant budget for Christmas gifts, right?

00:08:28.360 And you were like, wait a minute, we don't have that much money.

00:08:31.480 Why are we doing this?

00:08:32.020 So talk a little bit about that.

00:08:33.000 What was the emotion for you, Carrie, that you were invested in, why you thought it was so important to, you know, spend some money on Christmas?

00:08:39.940 Because even if you didn't have that much at the time in your relationship.

00:08:42.900 Yeah, I think this is one of the beautiful things about money.

00:08:46.660 One of the things that we love so much is that when you start talking about money, you always end up talking about something else.

00:08:52.760 So, you know, you come into it with, we're budgeting, but then you go into all of these weird, you know, history background places.

00:08:59.060 And so for me and my family, what we did at Christmas was we splurged.

00:09:04.500 And even though we should not have, it was not a wise thing to do.

00:09:08.160 This wasn't, like, you know, well thought out.

00:09:11.480 But that's just what we did.

00:09:12.460 That's how I was raised.

00:09:13.600 And so for me, there was a lot of worth that I, for me, that was tied up in gift giving and gift receiving.

00:09:22.280 So, you know, kind of if you've heard of love languages, I felt loved by receiving gifts and being able to give gifts to others simply because that's the way I was raised.

00:09:31.020 And Derek's family wasn't like that.

00:09:33.300 And even now, you know, we're going back home to Oklahoma for his Christmas soon.

00:09:38.760 And we got an email recently that said, everyone buy a $20 Dirty Santa gift and that's what we're doing.

00:09:44.780 And that's how they do Christmas.

00:09:46.980 So just merging those two ideas was really, really hard.

00:09:52.820 And so we just had to have that conversation.

00:09:55.680 And you have to take it beyond, like, oh, it's not personal.

00:09:59.640 He's not trying to hurt me by not buying me gifts all the time.

00:10:03.020 That's just the way that he was raised and being okay with that.

00:10:08.920 Yeah, and so to add to that, I think that what we're getting at here is not the difference between, well, my family, we get everyone a gift.

00:10:17.360 And so it ends up being, like, you know, hundreds of dollars or whatever.

00:10:21.680 And then in my family, we just do one gift and it's only $20.

00:10:25.900 It goes beyond that.

00:10:27.560 So you can argue about that, which way is right and, you know, I don't want to do that.

00:10:32.340 That's too expensive and all that.

00:10:34.580 But once you uncover the reason and the history behind why you do those things, then you can have a greater understanding of each other.

00:10:44.940 And once you go a little bit deeper into that conversation, that's where this kind of stuff can really be beneficial for your relationship.

00:10:53.140 Right.

00:10:53.340 You learn more about it because when you're talking about money, you're not talking about money, right?

00:10:58.600 Exactly.

00:10:59.420 Right.

00:11:00.700 Let's talk about this.

00:11:01.400 Okay, you know, this is for couples who are married, but it seems like you should be having some conversations about money before you get married.

00:11:09.620 Yeah.

00:11:10.880 Because it seems like, because, like, yeah, I mean, you're basically, you're colliding, not only, you know, you're not colliding possibly bank accounts and all that, right?

00:11:19.100 Retirement accounts and debt and things like that.

00:11:20.860 But you're also bringing together different ideas about money, different values about money.

00:11:26.680 And it'd be nice to get on, like, you know, start the relationship on a nice pace, right?

00:11:33.060 So you're all on the same page.

00:11:34.400 So what kind of conversations about money should couples have before they get married?

00:11:39.840 Yeah.

00:11:40.040 It's a really, really important question.

00:11:44.040 And, like, you know, when you start dating somebody, you have conversations, like, what's your favorite movie?

00:11:49.460 And what kind of music do you listen to, you know?

00:11:51.860 And those are small, but those are important.

00:11:55.980 You learn about each other's personalities.

00:11:57.760 And if we're going to talk about stuff like that, I really think that we need to be talking about important stuff, like how much debt do you have and how much, you know, what do you think about savings and what do you think about retirement?

00:12:10.600 And so I think that that stuff is so incredibly important that it really needs to be discussed.

00:12:15.480 But if not before you get engaged, then definitely before you get married because if you don't – I mean, my gosh, if you're just unaware of not even, like, a specific amount of debt but your attitude towards it.

00:12:32.020 So, for example, I have $60,000 in student loans and I'm paying it off as fast as I can.

00:12:37.780 That's one thing.

00:12:38.700 But if you have $60,000 in student loans and you don't care and you're not paying it off and you don't care if it goes into default, you know, that's a whole other thing.

00:12:47.800 And it's all about your attitude towards the financial situation.

00:12:52.300 So my suggestion is the more you talk about money and the more that you disclose before you get married, the better.

00:13:01.440 And, again, it's not necessarily about the numbers.

00:13:03.660 It's about the attitude.

00:13:05.480 Right.

00:13:05.920 And, like, well, I mean, what point in your relationship before – like, pre-marriage should you bring this up, right?

00:13:10.980 Like, you don't want to do it, like, on the fourth date when things are getting kind of serious, right?

00:13:15.760 And, like, okay, let's talk because that's just going to creep people out.

00:13:18.820 And then, you know, so, I mean, what point in the relationship should you bring it up?

00:13:23.140 So I think one of the most important things is to be observing each other constantly.

00:13:28.880 So from date one to whenever it actually comes up formally, you watch and see, like, what kind of things that you're – the person you're dating is spending money on so that it's always, you know, in your mind.

00:13:41.400 And then we kind of draw the lines between, you know, engagement.

00:13:45.420 So pre-engagement, I think that it should come up.

00:13:48.140 But everybody's dating, you know, timeline is different.

00:13:52.080 So maybe you dated for a year.

00:13:53.300 So I can't give you an actual timeline of, you know, fourth date or eighth date.

00:13:58.000 But when that feels right to you, you can bring it up specifically.

00:14:00.980 And I think before engagement, you can talk about it in general, you know, yes, I have debt.

00:14:06.640 Yes, I have a lot of debt.

00:14:07.520 This is what I'm doing about it.

00:14:08.640 These are my goals and that kind of thing.

00:14:10.500 But you don't need to break out the laptop and pull up your bank accounts yet.

00:14:13.940 But we would say that after you're engaged, absolutely pull up the numbers and you can even start working through that, you know, as you're definitely intending to get married.

00:14:24.240 So those are kind of the lines that we draw.

00:14:25.940 That's actually a great idea.

00:14:26.780 So you're like, you know, start working through the numbers together on a, you know, to sort out any financial problems before – or just like at least get something – a plan in place so that when you get married, you guys are hitting the ground running.

00:14:37.220 Yeah.

00:14:37.440 Yeah.

00:14:38.140 At the very least, at the very least, be aware of what you're going into.

00:14:42.520 Because the thing is – this is where it doesn't make sense to me.

00:14:45.760 This is such an important part of a relationship.

00:14:49.040 And if you're planning on being with somebody for the rest of your life, it doesn't make sense to hold something that's so important back until after you're married.

00:15:00.820 These things are so important.

00:15:01.980 They need to be disclosed earlier.

00:15:04.340 I mean, not the earlier the better, not on, like you said, the first date or the fourth date.

00:15:09.220 But I think sooner rather than later because they're so important.

00:15:13.340 And if it's going to come up anyway, we'll just go ahead and bring it up so that you can see if this is something that we can get past and we can both be okay with.

00:15:21.380 Or is this going to be such a stumbling block that we don't need to – one or both of us isn't even comfortable with moving forward with the relationship?

00:15:30.320 Eventually, you're going to have to figure that out.

00:15:33.020 We've got to talk about money.

00:15:34.340 That's easier said than done.

00:15:35.640 But for a lot of people, they don't like to talk about money because it was a taboo subject for them growing up.

00:15:41.880 Like the parents didn't talk to them about money.

00:15:44.680 If it was, it was like in hushed tones.

00:15:48.080 So how do you start that conversation with someone who is reluctant to have that conversation?

00:15:54.300 So I think that it's really important to – for someone like that, it's important to start with either emotions or feelings or with goals.

00:16:03.560 So you can say instead of, hey, let's look at our budget, it's where do we – what do we want in life?

00:16:08.720 Where do we want to be in five years?

00:16:10.220 What sort of house do we want to have?

00:16:12.140 Because if you're uncomfortable with money, you can probably still say like what kind of car you want to drive.

00:16:16.680 And then from there, you can go into like how do we do that and then start kind of getting into the nuts and bolts of it.

00:16:22.840 But then also, it can be helpful just to appeal to, hey, this is really, really important to me and I know that this is uncomfortable for you.

00:16:30.040 So because you love me, can we set aside some time to talk about this or can we make this a part of our ongoing conversation in our relationship because I don't want this to turn into a disaster later on?

00:16:44.760 So just appealing to those things I think can be helpful.

00:16:48.620 Gotcha.

00:16:49.000 And I imagine this conversation about money, it's not a one and done thing.

00:16:53.400 Like you have to keep that going.

00:16:55.560 So is it something you do informally or do you like – I mean do you guys set aside like here's – it's the third Wednesday of the month.

00:17:03.520 We do our financial check-in as a couple.

00:17:06.440 How do you – what do you guys do to keep the conversation about money going?

00:17:09.320 Yeah, so we basically do it monthly and it just all kind of stems around the monthly budget because when you sit down together and do a monthly budget, you're going to eventually through that process talk about everything.

00:17:21.600 You're going to talk about the kids.

00:17:23.460 If you have kids, you're going to talk about the household bills, any debt that you're trying to pay off, retirement, savings, income.

00:17:30.660 It's all discussed through the budget.

00:17:33.600 And because money changes and life changes, maybe not monthly but certainly every year something happens that's kind of out of the norm, I think it's really important for the conversation to be ongoing just again for the simple fact that things change.

00:17:52.160 And so if you stay on that together – and also another reason that it's important to have it be an ongoing conversation is that it's really good for your relationship.

00:18:05.100 Again, the common theme that's even in our book is that money is not necessarily only about money.

00:18:12.380 It's about your relationship.

00:18:13.460 So having a set time every month where you sit down with your spouse and go over the budget and talk about all those things is just a really good kickstart or sort of a refocusing for your relationship as a whole too.

00:18:28.480 So you guys budget – like do you guys recommend like couples sitting down together and budgeting, like talking – like every through line by line, like here's what we're going to spend?

00:18:35.980 Absolutely.

00:18:36.980 Absolutely.

00:18:37.980 And, you know, for us, we would sit down, both of us together, every single month for, I don't know, three or four years, the first three or four years.

00:18:48.360 And then we had a baby.

00:18:50.920 And since then, as you know, time gets very limited after that.

00:18:55.820 And so since then, it's mostly been me where I will do the recap of the previous month and put it all in the categories and then I'll draw up a – like a basic budget.

00:19:08.760 I'll do all that on my own and then Carrie and I will sit down real quick and I'm basically just updating and informing Carrie and making sure if she has anything that she wants to change or that I, you know, overlooked or something like that.

00:19:22.660 But that's fine because right now with having a one-year-old in the house, it just – it's really hard to find an hour or two a month to sit down together.

00:19:31.300 But as long as you're both being informed and updating each other at the very least, that's what we suggest doing that monthly.

00:19:39.940 Okay.

00:19:40.080 So, yeah.

00:19:40.560 So you're saying it's okay to like delegate financial duties within a marriage, right?

00:19:46.260 Oh, yeah.

00:19:46.720 Absolutely.

00:19:47.080 Yeah, if one of you is better at doing it or just enjoys it more and the other one, you know, isn't as excited, that's fine.

00:19:56.000 But that doesn't mean that you have to completely exclude them from the process.

00:20:00.720 They should be at least informed as to what's going on.

00:20:05.180 Well, and have input.

00:20:06.340 And have input, yeah.

00:20:06.500 Not just like this is what's happening.

00:20:08.500 Yeah, no, not informed like I'm going to tell you how it is.

00:20:11.240 But, you know, yeah.

00:20:12.160 We're buying a boat, right?

00:20:14.700 Exactly.

00:20:15.060 No, I'm informing you.

00:20:17.700 I've informed you that we're buying a boat.

00:20:19.600 My duty here is done.

00:20:20.900 Exactly.

00:20:21.140 You are informed.

00:20:22.900 Well, yeah.

00:20:23.400 I mean, yeah.

00:20:23.780 Like in our family, like Kate, like money just makes her eyes glaze over. 0.98

00:20:28.920 Yeah.

00:20:29.180 And I actually enjoy it.

00:20:30.220 I get like getting into the accounts and like budgeting and doing all that stuff.

00:20:34.460 So that's how we split it up.

00:20:35.980 And yeah, like I'll tell Kate, you know, a few times a month, like, here we are.

00:20:39.060 Here's what the finances, what's, here's what we're doing.

00:20:40.840 And that's it.

00:20:41.860 And it's not, it's not really like a formal thing.

00:20:43.320 We sit down, like, this is our financial meeting.

00:20:44.780 It's just like during this life, here we are.

00:20:47.440 This is what we're doing.

00:20:48.500 So sure.

00:20:49.220 And it works for us.

00:20:50.320 It's worked for us.

00:20:51.240 And that's, what's important is that you're, you're having the conversations, whether or

00:20:56.180 not it's a formal conversation or not.

00:20:57.520 Like you said, find what works for you.

00:20:58.960 But I think that the more that you do it, like Derek and I, we talk about money all the time

00:21:03.440 because we have done it formally so much.

00:21:06.560 So now just in everyday conversation, we just talk about it.

00:21:09.880 So I think, yeah, exactly.

00:21:11.360 That's awesome.

00:21:11.740 So yeah, maybe, maybe start off making it very formal, right?

00:21:15.220 Until it becomes just like a, something you do.

00:21:18.060 Exactly.

00:21:18.460 And let me sort of like back that up because that's right.

00:21:21.800 I really do think that, especially at the beginning, let's just say for six months or

00:21:26.980 maybe even a year, even if, you know, the one or the other doesn't really enjoy it and

00:21:32.520 would rather not.

00:21:33.240 I still think it's important for that person to see what goes on to create a budget and to

00:21:41.160 actually be involved and maybe actually do it themselves, even if they only, it's only like

00:21:46.180 that for like six months, just so that person has the awareness of what goes into it, you know,

00:21:51.800 so that when you do, you know, convert to a more casual, just conversation, you know,

00:21:58.360 updating every, every, every once in a while, at least they have a frame of reference for what

00:22:03.920 you're talking about.

00:22:05.500 Even though, you know, from then on for the rest of your marriage, it might just be one or the

00:22:09.920 other who's, who's actually doing the budget.

00:22:12.600 Gotcha.

00:22:13.220 So in the midst of these conversations, besides budgeting, I'm sure there is goal setting

00:22:17.660 involved, right?

00:22:19.300 So what kind of, and I think it's interesting whenever you read like personal finance blogs

00:22:23.640 and like personal finance books, they usually talk about like a single person's making

00:22:27.920 these personal finance goals.

00:22:29.360 But when you stop and think about it, a lot of people, like they're attached to another

00:22:33.180 person, right?

00:22:33.880 So they have like, when they're making a goal, like they're making a goal for more than just

00:22:37.880 them.

00:22:39.340 So taking that into account, what sort of goals should a married couple be making that maybe

00:22:45.040 perhaps someone who's single might not make?

00:22:50.320 That's, that's a good question because that's where it gets really complicated.

00:22:54.180 It's, it's a lot more straightforward when it's just one person making a decision for

00:22:58.860 themselves.

00:22:59.740 But when it's one or two people making decisions for, for the both of them, that that's obviously

00:23:06.560 where this gets more complicated.

00:23:08.800 And I think in a lot of ways, it makes it a lot more fun to, to have two people involved.

00:23:14.520 But when you set those goals, you can set big picture goals, maybe once a year.

00:23:19.080 For example, how much do we want to grow our net worth?

00:23:23.720 What kind of retirement do we want to have in 30 years from now?

00:23:26.920 And all that kind of stuff really informs your monthly budget.

00:23:32.560 And, and from there, it really informs your day-to-day purchases and your day-to-day decision

00:23:38.540 making.

00:23:38.920 And so I think that big picture stuff, if you, if you visit it once a year and talk about

00:23:46.620 when you have those conversations, you can talk, go back to talking about feelings and

00:23:51.820 what are your wants and desires for the future when you talk about big picture goals like that.

00:23:58.560 And those can be really fun conversations to talk about stuff like that way off in the

00:24:02.840 future, big picture goals.

00:24:04.120 Um, and so I think that also having those big picture goals together, keeping them in

00:24:13.560 mind actually makes the day-to-day stuff easier or, or more enjoyable at least when you realize,

00:24:20.160 Hey, we're, we're on the same team and we've got the same goals and we, that we've agreed

00:24:26.360 to and that we're excited about.

00:24:27.880 It makes the day-to-day budgeting or the month to month budgeting, you know, a lot, it makes

00:24:33.760 it more meaningful.

00:24:34.500 So it makes it a bit more enjoyable.

00:24:36.820 Oh yeah, we're not just crunching numbers here and creating this boring budget.

00:24:41.400 This is actually some, a, a foundational thing that's going to lead towards, um, us having

00:24:48.020 this kind of lifestyle that we want together for our entire marriage and our entire life.

00:24:53.560 Right, right.

00:24:54.080 Yeah.

00:24:54.260 Cause I mean, when you're, when you have those conversations, like you're, you're probably

00:24:56.780 having some really big picture conversations about your financial goals.

00:24:59.520 Like for example, you might have the conversation, well, uh, do we want, do we want one of us

00:25:04.660 to stay home to take care of the kids?

00:25:07.300 Right.

00:25:07.680 If that's, if that's the case, then we're going to, you know, have to, you know, cut

00:25:11.660 back on things so we can afford that.

00:25:14.220 Right.

00:25:14.520 Yeah.

00:25:14.860 And see, that's huge.

00:25:15.760 And, and I'm glad you kind of brought up that scenario.

00:25:17.820 Cause that's something that's not so far off like retirement.

00:25:21.200 That's something that's like today or, or, or, or less than five years for a lot of

00:25:25.820 people, if you're getting, if you're just now starting out or you're just now newly

00:25:29.700 wed, um, that's something that's going to be on your plate immediately.

00:25:34.640 And, and that whole, um, you know, one spouse staying home to take care of the kids full

00:25:40.340 time, man, you're right.

00:25:41.420 I mean, that, that changes everything drastically.

00:25:44.840 I mean, like, it's like slamming on the brakes, you know, that, that's a pretty, um, scary

00:25:51.240 thing to do to just slam on the brakes on a car because it's really immediate and it really

00:25:56.700 gets your attention.

00:25:57.440 So something like that, having a goal like that is something that we, we talk about in

00:26:01.960 the book specifically, um, about whether, whether one of you is going to stay home or

00:26:08.160 not and how that affects that, that affects all kinds of things.

00:26:11.500 Right, right.

00:26:12.220 And then there's other goals, like, you know, if one of you might have a goal, like we're

00:26:15.240 going to pay off our house as soon as possible.

00:26:17.460 Yeah.

00:26:17.860 That sounds pretty awesome.

00:26:19.500 Um, but the other cup, the other person in the relationship might be thinking, whoa,

00:26:22.500 whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, like I want to have some money that like we can spend.

00:26:26.300 Yeah.

00:26:26.720 That's not tied up in our house.

00:26:28.040 Right.

00:26:28.380 And so you have to have that conversation, right?

00:26:30.860 Sure.

00:26:31.280 That's going to affect a lot of other decisions you make on a day-to-day basis.

00:26:35.220 Absolutely.

00:26:36.060 Right.

00:26:36.420 Okay.

00:26:36.700 Um, your book is called one bed, one make account.

00:26:41.500 All right.

00:26:41.640 So we're going to bring up this question, which is, I think it's so funny.

00:26:44.120 It's like one of the most controversial personal finance questions.

00:26:46.640 Yeah.

00:26:47.020 Uh, that's out there.

00:26:47.940 Whenever I've, whenever I've seen it brought up on the interwebs or it's just, it's amazing.

00:26:53.080 It's amazing how much people love talking about this.

00:26:55.400 Yeah.

00:26:55.800 All right.

00:26:56.040 So one bank account or separate accounts, what's your guys' verdict?

00:27:00.900 One.

00:27:01.580 Yeah.

00:27:02.520 Yeah.

00:27:03.100 Answer that in one word.

00:27:04.100 The book title kind of gives it away there.

00:27:06.640 So why, why is that?

00:27:07.780 Why one bank account?

00:27:08.660 Why, what are the benefits of that for a marriage?

00:27:12.120 Yeah.

00:27:12.320 So we, we are aware of the controversy.

00:27:15.980 And, um, so for us, we're, our focus on the book, we're not, um, we, we are focusing

00:27:23.080 on relationship.

00:27:23.980 And so for us, it's, it's best to have more transparency.

00:27:28.800 Um, we think that unity is best being on the same page as best.

00:27:32.040 And for us, we just think that one bank account facilitates all of those things better.

00:27:36.000 So it's not necessarily that the, you know, that, that two is bad, but it's easier to

00:27:42.760 get into your own world with two bank accounts.

00:27:44.640 It's easier to, you know, be spending without your spouse knowing about it.

00:27:48.760 Um, it's easier for things to be hidden.

00:27:51.720 It's easier to not feel like you need to bring things up.

00:27:53.700 Whereas with one, it's, you know, we go through our bank account and Derek sees that I, that

00:27:58.640 I spent, you know, $30 at Panera and, you know, that comes up and we talk about it.

00:28:04.100 And, and for us, that transparency and that being on the same page and us being able,

00:28:09.420 being comfortable enough to talk to those things, talk about each other, talk to each

00:28:13.720 other about those things is important.

00:28:16.100 Um, cause if, if I feel like I can't bring things up, I can't bring up my desires.

00:28:20.200 I can't bring up, um, you know, the fact that I'm, uh, flawed and that sometimes I go

00:28:25.940 over budget and, uh, you know, I'm afraid that Derek's going to go off the handle.

00:28:28.460 That's, that's a bad sign, not just for our finances, but for our relationship.

00:28:32.100 And so for us, we, it just facilitates oneness better.

00:28:35.880 Um, of course there are pros to having two, there are pros, you know, to having one, but,

00:28:40.660 um, for us, the relational aspect is, is more important.

00:28:45.160 Yeah.

00:28:45.520 Gotcha.

00:28:45.940 I mean, what are the pros?

00:28:47.100 Let's, let's, let's, we'll be, uh, in the, in the, in the, in all fairness, let's look

00:28:51.420 at, we're going to be a neutral here, but what are the, uh, the benefits of two or the,

00:28:55.480 of two separate bank accounts?

00:28:56.520 Sure.

00:28:57.260 So, so some would say that the benefits of two bank accounts are, it sort of eliminates

00:29:02.560 a lot of, uh, conversations.

00:29:04.420 You don't have to say, Hey, can I spend this amount of money on, um, clothing this month

00:29:09.540 or this amount of money on going out to eat and all that kind of stuff.

00:29:13.300 It, it, some would argue that it does make things more simple.

00:29:17.300 I've got my money.

00:29:18.700 You've got your money.

00:29:19.740 You take care of yours the way you want to, and I'll take care of mine the way, the way

00:29:23.500 I want to.

00:29:24.100 And that's certainly understandable.

00:29:26.440 Um, but I, I, I would say that that leaves out the, the fact that you don't have to have

00:29:32.800 those conversations might sound enticing, but I would say that you're missing out on

00:29:36.520 some stuff whenever you don't have to have those conversations because you're keeping your,

00:29:41.380 your, um, bank accounts separate.

00:29:43.260 Right, right.

00:29:43.560 Yeah.

00:29:43.800 When you're talking about money, you're not talking about money.

00:29:47.100 Exactly.

00:29:47.700 Yep.

00:29:47.940 Right.

00:29:48.300 Okay.

00:29:48.500 Yeah.

00:29:48.860 Yeah.

00:29:49.280 Yeah.

00:29:49.460 So yeah, Kate and I, we have one bank account and you're right.

00:29:51.580 Like you have those conversations.

00:29:53.000 You're like, you know, for the most part, we kind of give ourselves like each, like a

00:29:55.880 discretionary amount that we can spend each month.

00:29:57.760 But whenever we are going to go over that, like we have the conversation, like, okay,

00:30:01.240 Hey, I'm going to spend a big chunk, uh, on this.

00:30:05.180 Here's why I need to do this.

00:30:06.860 Uh, is that okay?

00:30:08.080 We have the conversation about it.

00:30:09.860 Um, so, well, okay.

00:30:11.080 But here's the question, but what's one bank account that a lot of people have?

00:30:13.660 And like, I've, I have this problem.

00:30:15.180 I don't know what to do about it either.

00:30:16.340 Like gift giving, right?

00:30:17.720 Like what do you, it's Christmas time.

00:30:19.460 Like, you know, if you're, you're, if you're, you guys are on the same, same team or the

00:30:23.200 same page with finances, you're looking, Oh, here's this thing from Amazon.

00:30:27.280 What did you buy at Amazon?

00:30:29.460 Oh, how do you handle that?

00:30:32.180 Okay.

00:30:32.560 We, we actually get that question a lot.

00:30:34.600 Like everyone brings that up and I got, I got kind of maybe two answers to that.

00:30:39.120 One, here's, here's the quick and easy answer.

00:30:41.180 Or you just go to your spouse and you say, Hey, just, you know, you kind of give it away.

00:30:47.120 You say, don't check the bank account until next Thursday.

00:30:51.920 I got, I bought something and you'll see what it is.

00:30:56.040 You know, it's a surprise.

00:30:57.320 You're just going to have to give it away unless, unless you can somehow pay cash for

00:31:01.220 it, but there, there's no avoiding that.

00:31:03.700 So you just straight up say it, you know, but, and that can, you can even turn that into

00:31:07.920 a positive because then they know that you, you've got them something and it's a surprise

00:31:11.960 and they, you know, you can kind of have fun with it.

00:31:14.180 Right.

00:31:14.580 Sure.

00:31:15.240 Okay.

00:31:15.900 So that, that's like one easy way to answer it.

00:31:20.340 But the other thing is like that, that happens so that happens so in infrequently, you know,

00:31:26.760 maybe it's once a year or whatever, but it just happens.

00:31:29.340 It doesn't happen often enough and there are so many other benefits, um, to the, to

00:31:36.360 having one bank account that the fact that you might get discovered for buying a special

00:31:41.480 present as a surprise to me, it just, it, that's just not enough, not even close to enough

00:31:47.260 to like, you know, blow up the whole, um, or, or abandon the entire, you know, budgeting

00:31:54.540 process, your entire financial life, you know, together.

00:31:56.920 Well, I want to buy you a surprise every now and then.

00:31:59.600 So we're going to keep separate accounts and, and forget everything else.

00:32:02.660 It's just not enough to, um, you know, carry enough weight to, to convince me that having

00:32:09.480 two bank accounts is worth it.

00:32:10.940 Right, right, right.

00:32:11.500 Then again, gift giving isn't your love language.

00:32:13.540 Right.

00:32:13.940 Well, yeah, I never give gifts, so I don't ever have to worry about that.

00:32:17.060 Easy for you to say, Derek.

00:32:19.000 Easy for you to say.

00:32:20.160 But a few practical things that we give in the book too, um, you talked about having discretionary

00:32:24.540 funds, Brett, and we do the same thing.

00:32:26.060 And so one thing that you can do is just to build, build that up secretly.

00:32:30.280 So if you, if you give each other a hundred dollars a month discretionary or 200, whatever

00:32:34.420 it is, 50 bucks, you can build that up, uh, you know, cash secretly and then, um, buy your

00:32:39.640 gift that way.

00:32:40.360 And then you can also enlist the help of a friend and then you can also get Amazon gift

00:32:44.900 cards.

00:32:45.240 So if you don't want them to see exactly what the thing was, maybe you're buying, you

00:32:48.400 know, a spa treatment, you can get an Amazon gift card that spends just like a credit

00:32:52.720 card.

00:32:53.160 So then they'll see that you spent money on a, the gift card, but they won't know what

00:32:58.180 the actual thing is.

00:32:59.040 So the actual gift is a surprise.

00:33:00.580 So you can use the Amazon gift card, um, or Visa gift card rather, sorry, and go and,

00:33:05.340 and actually buy the gift with that as opposed to something that's going to show up on your

00:33:08.960 bank account.

00:33:09.680 Oh, I see.

00:33:10.240 I've never even thought of that.

00:33:11.540 That's very sneaky.

00:33:12.620 Yeah.

00:33:13.060 That's like some spy stuff right there.

00:33:15.080 See, and that's, you know, okay.

00:33:17.320 So that's for people who are in a healthy relationship.

00:33:19.080 That's not to give people who are in an unhealthy relationship advice on how to work around their

00:33:23.960 spouse.

00:33:23.980 Work around their finances.

00:33:25.600 Yeah.

00:33:26.020 Yeah.

00:33:26.820 Could be used for good and for bad.

00:33:29.000 That is right.

00:33:29.880 It is like, yeah.

00:33:30.620 Okay.

00:33:31.120 You want to be the good spy.

00:33:32.520 Exactly.

00:33:33.260 Um, so how do you, here's a problem.

00:33:35.600 Okay.

00:33:35.780 So you, you, you're on the same page financially, but there's going to be mistakes.

00:33:38.920 One person in the couple might make a, just a huge boneheaded financial mistake.

00:33:44.580 How should the couple manage that, right? 0.95

00:33:47.700 What's the best way to approach when one person in the relationship has just made a boneheaded

00:33:52.720 financial move?

00:33:53.820 Right.

00:33:54.200 Yeah.

00:33:54.700 That's a very good question.

00:33:55.880 Cause that's going to happen.

00:33:57.280 We're all human.

00:33:58.080 We all make mistakes.

00:33:58.980 It's just going to happen.

00:34:00.040 So I've actually got an answer and then, and then Carrie's got something to add afterwards.

00:34:04.260 Um, the first thing, um, cause it, cause it kind of depends on what you're saying.

00:34:08.540 So let's say, for example, um, you, you set a monthly budget and then throughout the

00:34:14.480 month, um, let's say that I go over my restaurant, um, spending allowance by $50 or whatever,

00:34:21.480 you know, and then at the end of the month it comes out and I'm like, ah, and, um, it's

00:34:27.540 discovered that I've went over by $50.

00:34:29.240 Well, one way to, to address that is for Carrie just to point me to the budget and say, Hey, 1.00

00:34:35.880 and instead of getting mad, that that's what I'm trying to say, instead of getting upset 1.00

00:34:39.220 and saying, you idiot, you know, you went over by $50. 1.00

00:34:42.160 I'm so upset with you. 1.00

00:34:43.460 I'm really pissed off, you know, all that kind of stuff that I might not respond well

00:34:49.600 to that because I feel like I'm being personally attacked.

00:34:51.760 Even, even though I made a mistake, you know, making mistakes isn't fun.

00:34:55.460 And then being attacked for it isn't fun either, but one, one thing that you can do is just

00:34:59.980 point each other back to the budget and say, Hey, we agreed to this budget, you remember?

00:35:05.100 And, and you, you agreed to this.

00:35:07.480 We both agreed to this and then you blew it off and, and overspent.

00:35:14.060 And what it does is it sort of turns the situation back on yourself.

00:35:18.720 So you're, you can't really get mad at your spouse when you're the one that made a mistake.

00:35:24.120 And then you can use the budget as sort of like an intermeri, sort of like a, um, what's

00:35:29.260 the word I'm trying to, intermediary, intermediary, intermediary.

00:35:34.600 You can, you can use the budget kind of like that, um, in that way.

00:35:39.000 And then Carrie has got another, um, approach. 1.00

00:35:41.800 Well, I was just going to, I think that's, that's great.

00:35:44.180 But, um, Brett, you did say a boneheaded mistake, which is different from ongoing, you

00:35:49.980 know, um, just, Hey, I don't care and I'm going to spend what I want.

00:35:53.780 So that's different.

00:35:54.740 And if that's happening, again, there are deeper issues than just a budget problem.

00:35:58.900 So if that's happening, um, depending on what the situation is, um, maybe you even need to

00:36:03.980 seek out counseling.

00:36:04.640 Cause if, if it's an issue where, um, one spouse is just disregarding the wellbeing of

00:36:09.860 the couple and of the relationship and of the desires of the other, uh, then, you know,

00:36:14.200 again, of course there, there are more deep seated issues than what can be solved by simply

00:36:18.140 fixing your budget.

00:36:19.220 Right.

00:36:20.300 Well, great.

00:36:20.680 This is all great information.

00:36:22.460 Where can, uh, folks find out more about your guys' work and about the book?

00:36:26.620 Yeah.

00:36:27.100 So our website is just Derek and Carrie.com and it's spelled D E R E K.

00:36:32.740 And C A R R I E. 1.00

00:36:34.860 Yeah.

00:36:35.260 And so that, and that's where you can find out more about us and our podcast too, and the

00:36:39.700 book as well.

00:36:40.560 And the book is available on Amazon as well.

00:36:43.140 And I'll mention, I'll mention too, uh, you mentioned a couple of times, you know, it's

00:36:47.120 hard to start talking about money.

00:36:48.820 We do have a free ebook that we give away called four and a half conversation starters.

00:36:52.800 It's kind of just a, uh, low stress, non-threatening, uh, four, four and a half questions that you

00:36:58.680 can, uh, get in and start that conversation.

00:37:01.280 If it's been something that's been hard for you to do or that you're both uncomfortable

00:37:04.260 with, it kind of gives you a little guide and they're, they're easy, uh, just getting

00:37:07.860 started questions just to get those conversations started.

00:37:10.460 And those are on our website.

00:37:12.180 Um, if you sign up for our newsletter.

00:37:13.920 Great.

00:37:14.400 Derek and Carrie Olson, thank you so much for your time.

00:37:16.160 It's been a pleasure.

00:37:17.380 Thanks a lot, Brett.

00:37:18.440 My guests today were Derek and Carrie Olson.

00:37:20.160 They're the authors of the book, one bed, one bank account.

00:37:22.440 And you can find that on amazon.com and actually they have it right now.

00:37:25.740 It's three 99 on Kindle there.

00:37:26.980 So pick it up.

00:37:27.520 Great deal.

00:37:28.060 They also have it available in paperback and for more information about their work,

00:37:30.900 check out their website, Derek and Carrie Olson.com.

00:37:36.740 Well, that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips

00:37:40.820 and advice.

00:37:41.280 Make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com and want to give

00:37:45.400 you guys a heads up.

00:37:46.200 I'm taking a break from the podcast until the new year.

00:37:49.160 I'm going to spend some time with my family over the holidays as well as I get some much

00:37:52.960 needed R and R and, uh, prepare another year of great podcast for you.

00:37:57.560 I want to take this time to, uh, thank you all for your continued support of the art of

00:38:01.000 manliness podcast.

00:38:01.580 I really do appreciate the letters, the emails, the tweets you all, you all send offering your

00:38:06.980 support for the podcast.

00:38:07.820 Thank you so much.

00:38:08.820 My goal for next year is to continue adding value to you through the podcast, as well as

00:38:13.360 finding ways I can improve the podcast so I can add even more value to you.

00:38:16.600 So I'm going to do all I can to deliver on that.

00:38:19.900 So thanks again.

00:38:21.000 And until next time, this is Brett McKay wishing you a very Merry Christmas and to stay manly.

00:38:27.900 Merry Christmas.

The Art of Manliness - December 22, 2015

#165： Better Conversations on Money and Marriage

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