#185： Forces of Character
Episode Stats
Summary
In this episode of the Art of Manliness Podcast, I interview former NFL Quarterback Chad Neenings about his new book, "Fights of character" and what character means to him, why it matters, and how to develop it.
Transcript
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right mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast so
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what is character right we always talk about we want to develop good character what what exactly
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does that mean and once you figure out what good character is how do we go about developing it well
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that's the questions or those are the questions my guest tries to answer in his book forces of
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character his name's chad hennings and if you're a dallas cowboys fan you probably know who he is
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uh you guys had an amazing career went to the the air force academy served in the persian gulf
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as an a-10 pilot uh came back from the persian gulf war and played for the dallas cowboys for
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several seasons and won four super bowl or excuse me three super bowl championships in four years
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and in his book forces of character chad interviews and talks to different people that he's
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interacted throughout his life high profile individuals supreme court justices football
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coaches uh you name it he's talked to them and he asked them like what character means to them
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and how they went about developing character themselves as well as in their own family or
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with the individuals that they led either on a sports team or in business etc really great discussion
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um i think you're gonna like it so without further ado chad hennings and forces of character
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chad hennings welcome to the show hey pleasure to be on thanks for having me on so your new book is
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called forces of character where you interview friends associates mentors that have been involved
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in your life in some way or another about what character means and what it means to live a life
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of character what was the impetus behind this book was there something that happened in your life
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that you felt like you needed to write this you know i think it's all the things that we are
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consistently bombarded with day in day out whether that be through the media through relationships
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through whatever where i just see character lacking whether that's you know watching political debates
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you know in this political season approaching the presidential election to you know athletes on the field
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uh hurting their teams with certain unsportsmanlike conduct to uh things you read about in the business
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section day in day out that i really wanted to start a conversation about the importance of character
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and and why it matters to us as individuals as well as to us collectively in our culture
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you start with the book talking about what you mean by character and i think everyone has a different
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definition of what it means to live a life of character but how do you define it
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you know character in essence it's you know doing the right thing and i know that's a very broad
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definition but to me it's certain is defined by certain traits whether that be functional moral character
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about selflessness self-discipline perseverance resilience how you treat others you know following
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that golden rule of do unto others as you'd have them do unto you um you know for me i define
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being an individual of character or being a force of character as someone who lives to be their best
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self every day who encourages others to do the same as well as lifting those organization or those
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entities that they're affiliated with whether that be a family a business a team encouraging those around
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them to live to a higher noble purpose and cause so it's you know it's it's taking in all those
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different things and bottom line if you had to boil it down to just one statement it's it's following
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that golden rule of of servant leadership and doing unto others as you know you want them to do unto you
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so it seems like there's an emphasis on action is that what you mean by when you say in your book
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character is kinetic very much so character is can be made as an analogy just like when you exercise
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your workout you're exercising a muscle group if you're doing a bench you're doing a squat
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character is made up of of those small decisions that you make day in day out that that they matter
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that you don't just wake up and decide as i write about the book to hey i'm gonna rob a bank today or
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um hey i want to go start a homeless shelter no those things decisions who you are first of all it's a
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choice and those decisions that you make impact you know your actions and whether you can achieve
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to be the person that you want to be for your tomorrows so so character has to be active it's
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just not a light switch that you turn on and turn off it's an identity and and that's why i talk about
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it's it's it's kinetic that it really takes in all your thoughts your words and your actions
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who you are as an individual going forward in your life now i know many of our listeners are likely
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familiar with you and your career with the dallas cowboys and in professional football
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how much did football influence how you perceive character you know what lessons you take from the
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football field that you're able to apply to just regular everyday life you know i look back i would say
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not much from playing professionally because who i was as an individual is already ingrained
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in my identity but going back i'll go going back playing football in elementary school where
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you're on the playground where you're just out there with your friends that's where i learned
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the importance of of character because it's those lessons i talk about athletics you know particularly
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football being one of the best leadership laboratories you know that that there is where you learn life's
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lessons on character on again those things how do you play with others you know how do you define
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your role as an individual on the confines of the team how do you overcome adversity how do you act
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how do you act when you win when you lose uh what's the commitment your practice in the off you know
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quote-unquote off season or your preparation how do you think strategically how do you think tactically
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all these different lessons i learned as a kid growing up that were solidified as to who the person that i
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you know i wanted to be and chose to be because we all played with those kids that were selfish that were
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ball hogs you know you don't want to be around those guys because it's all about them and you
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learn early on that to win a game that's a team sport you need others around you and you need to
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encourage everybody to be doing their role to the utmost in order to win the game so i mean all kids
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see that so that's where it's important to have these conversations with your kids at an early age even
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when you're watching on television when you're watching say the super bowl you know how those players
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yeah they're great athletes tremendous athletes but more importantly talk to your kids about
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you know how do they act on the field when something gets a call against them or do they
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pick up their the opponent after they tackle them you know and slap them on the butt you know and say
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good job those are all great lessons to learn that we all can learn through athletics either by
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participating or by being a uh a fan just watching him from afar yeah i i think that's interesting i
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love the analogy between athletics training for sport and using that as a now as an analogy to
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train your character you know i've been listening to these lectures about stoic philosophers and they
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often use the analogy of the olympic games and training physically uh to training your soul and i think
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that's what we would call character i just love that analogy um you in the book you interview
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several people ranging from roger staubach to supreme court justice clarence thomas how did you go about
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selecting the individuals you included in the book first of all my whole goal was to to show that
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character is ubiquitous you don't have to be from a certain economic level or you don't have to come
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from a particular background to exemplify characters so i picked individuals from a broad breadth of
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background from different races uh gender to you know experience and and they all to me were as i
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defined earlier what a force of character was and you named a few from clarence thomas to roger
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staubach troitman greg popovich coach for the spurs a space shuttle commander uh ceo for the national
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center on fathering an auschwitz survivor uh international human rights attorney out of
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communist romania to uh a homelessness expert you know all these people very wide background but they
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all have impacted others by being a force of character and and that's why i wanted to get it
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out and that was the intent of having you know as broad of audience as i can because anybody can read
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this book and take something out of it because they're going to relate to one of the individuals in
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one of the chapters uh that i wrote about we'll get into the specifics of some of the folks you
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interviewed but as you interviewed them was there one thing or a few things they all had in common
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when it came to living a life of character you know ultimately they all had that transformational
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moment where they realized that character mattered you know a lot of them we talked uh i wrote about i
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think all the cowboy players for those people that are cowboy haters out there can emphasize with this
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but you know as young kids they all stole something whether it was roger stallback a little virgin
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mary icon troy eggman was a pocket knife i took a football card jason garrett stole a um a pack of gum
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from a neighborhood store but it was all those things where they felt guilt they felt remorse
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and they were held accountable for that after you know they went to our parents you know we're
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punished appropriately but we had to go face it up and return those items and um you know that's
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where for everybody across the board had that transformational moment where they realized that
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the difference between right and wrong that your decisions every day matter and they then transform
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that that experience into being that again that force of character being your best self every day
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encourage others to do the same and then lifting those around you to a higher noble purpose or cause
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i thought the story about uh you stealing the football card was was pretty funny you made a
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little girl cry yeah it's a great way to open a book i you know i stole a football card from a little
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girl yeah yeah there there was a learning moment right there i thought it was interesting too that a lot
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of the people you interviewed grew up on farms they came from a rural lifestyle what is it about a
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what is it about farm living that helps people develop character well you know one of the aspects
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i mentioned earlier too about functional characters is work ethic um and that's where growing up on a
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farm i grew up on a farm in iowa and i watched by watching my father my grandfather my brother you
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know work the land because as a farmer if you don't get up there there's no days off if you don't go out
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and take care of your livestock you don't go out and till the soil or plant the soil or harvest this
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or harvest the um the crops that you plant nobody's there to do it for you it's up to you so it's that
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aspect of personal responsibility because if you don't take care of your family you know there's
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nobody there to do that so it's you know those are you know that great american work ethic whatever
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that i think has been in our national psyche for years was based on that agarian society of
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people working the land and that translates over you know it carried over for me and my my career is
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both either as a fighter pilot or as a football player you know i took those same lessons in life
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about work ethic and worked as hard as i could to to be the man that i am today i think there's
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something about farm work too that it helps you become resilient you know farming you're dependent
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upon the weather for example and you have no control over that well that's where i laugh at
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my dad and i said man i don't know how you can deal with the stress because in other businesses you can
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control certain inputs into your business to control margins of the cost of your goods or cost of goods sold
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etc our production timing but as a farmer you have no control over the commodity prices of your grain or
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your livestock that you sell you can't control the weather you can't control the cost of your inputs it
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it is what it is and there's really only thing that you can do is control who you are as a person work your
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hardest getting the crops in and you know praying to god that that you get a crop that you don't get
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drought or uh too much rain and overabundance of rain where you get flooded out
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to your point that these farmers are probably the most resilient people that i know yeah whenever
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i read these stories uh yeah i grew up in the suburbs of oklahoma playing super nintendo and i feel like i
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missed out on something in life by not growing up on a farm i didn't get that whole school of hard
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knocks and i guess sports helped me with that but um yeah i feel like i missed out so let's get into
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specifics here uh one of the people you interviewed was the famous dallas cowboys quarterback roger
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staubach and i love the story about duty and consistency when it comes to building character
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what did he have to say about those two ideals about living a life of character
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uh roger being very similar and this is one of the reasons i want to interview him because we had a
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came from a common background he went to the naval academy and i graduated from the air force academy
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and ultimately served our commitment and went on to play for the cowboys
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you know of course he's a hall of fame quarterback super bowl champion you know the great and been a
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huge mentor to me but what he talked about was that aspect of character kinetic that it's it's not so
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much the words you say it's it's your actions and and today if for those parents that are out there
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listening or for anybody that is mentoring a young person you know just to go off on a quick side note
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here is that kids today they have a pretty good filter pretty good radar of you know are they going
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to trust you just based on because kids today are bombarded with media that they they can determine
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you know pretty much who they trust and who they who they don't so if you're not exemplifying those
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lessons that you're trying to teach your kids or those individuals that you're mentoring you might as
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well give up on it because they're not going to listen to you it's going to go in one ear and out the
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other you got to walk the walk and that's what roger talked about doing his duty you know he talked
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about a story i don't want to take anything from those of you that want to read the book but when
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he was in vietnam as a supply officer had some issues with certain aspects of corruption going on and how
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he had to confront that and he had a choice where he could have turned you know turned his eye
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turned his head the other way and forgot about it just allowed the stuff to go on and write wrote his
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time out but he confronted that and then also on the football field he talked about certain
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individuals that you know he had to pull aside or how he had to motivate them on the field and again
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it was living the life that he did the choices the decisions the thoughts the actions all the things
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that he the things that he said mattered because he knew that people were watching them so to live
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that life of character you have to you have to walk it walk the walk much more so than than than talk
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the talk it's a daily thing too i think most people approach self-improvement you know they
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get on the bandwagon you know they say this is the time i'm going to change and they have like this big
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effort at the beginning and they make some some progress and when they don't make any progress they
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just stop it's not consistent and i guess light a life of character requires you know just daily
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workaday actions it's boring it's unsexy but that's how you develop a life of character just
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doing the little things on a regular basis and and that's what matters the most it's not the
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spectacular the magnanimous things we do in life it's those little things to your point day in day
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out that matter most that truly define who we are as individuals another person you talked to is a
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gentleman by the name of bob sweeney he's part of an organization that works with the homeless in
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dallas and what i thought was fascinating about him was that he and his organization have a 20 you know
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they have 25 times higher success rate with getting folks off the streets you know that's not 25 percent
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higher it's 25 times higher i'm curious what's the secret sauce what is he doing different from a lot
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of the other agencies organizations that work with the homeless well he works on the aspect of identity
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and again not to take away all this the stories but from a high level here he deal with people that
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are homeless typically come from a varied background it doesn't matter your you know your race your
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gender whatever but a lot of people fall into these cycles these downward spirals whether that be
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addiction through substance abuse or uh you know physical abuse relationships or just you know life
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happens health issues where they find themselves homeless but it's the identity of do they take
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personal accountability or responsibility for their actions or do they you know blame the others you
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know it's my ex-wife or it was my my ex-husband or it's you know it was that relationship or that job
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it was only that boss's fault in what he has made his program so successful his he gets people to take
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personal responsibilities to who they are their identity to be that individual of character to then
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take that on where they can go on and become you know who they really choose to be and the big thing
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about it too is he talks about holistically he talks to them about you know the importance of taking
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care of yourself physically of of bettering yourself mentally of of getting that education at least that
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high school education if not taking any continuing education beyond that but also the spiritual component
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he's an unabashed christian and that is what really gets people to find their purpose their meaning
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in life where then they can go out and be that individual of of character and take responsibility
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for who they are and be a productive member of society so it it gets you know bottom line it's it's
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their identity he helps them find out who they are first and foremost and then helps them become
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that person they could be that they that they want we all want to be somebody but a lot of people
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i mean with somebody of of significance well you know bottom line we all want to live a life of
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significance i firmly believe we all want to look back on our lives you know say we made a difference
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some people are willing to pay the price for that some people are willing to to make those tough calls
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those decisions to do those little things day in day out and others it may be too difficult based
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on circumstances again life happens but it's you know that true character is resides in that how you
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respond when quote unquote that life happens to you and and that's where i mean we're all tested
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and that's where you know he gets people to to step up to the plate and realize granted it may not have
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been my fault but the decisions i make from here going forward that is my responsibility helping to
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become farmers right exactly now i never knew who this lady was until i read your book her name is dr
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edger and she was in auschwitz and but what can we learn from her about dealing with hard times in
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life i mean because like being an auschwitz that's like the ultimate hard time um what did you glean
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from her about the character traits you need to develop for the hard times she was probably one of
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my favorite uh interviews or conversations that i had she what a remarkable lady she's probably 88
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years old now but as a 16 year old teenager growing up in in um in hungary where she you know a fairly
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middle-class family uh very affluent uh they were sent put on the cattle car from hungary to poland
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to auschwitz you know along that train ride there her mother pulls her and her daughter her father had
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already been separated from them you know and she tell her mother holds her head her hands and says you
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know edie we're not sure her name's eager her not sure what's going to happen to us we're not sure where
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we're going to go but always remember they can't take away you know what you think what your thoughts
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the choices that you make and when as soon as they got to auschwitz they get off the train they come
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face to face with dr joseph mengele you know the angel of death who is known for you know just standing
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there pointing his finger to the right or to the left his thumb and her mother was sent to the right
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the girls were sent to the left mother goes to the gas chamber you know she is murdered killed
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and edie was a classically trained ballerina where she ended up having to perform for mengele
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before his dinner so here she is she has a choice to make what am i going to do do i choose to forgive
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this guy you know this guy murdered my mother you know what what am i going to do how do i live how do
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i survive this and just a tremendous character on finding meaning and purpose in life and in my
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excuse you know my statement to people okay after hearing a story like that where she made a choice
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she realized that she always had a choice what's your excuse you know and and that's the thing about
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i learned most from her was again resilience and that that life is a choice we have a choice no matter
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what happens to you you go have an experience through a concentration camp which is the ultimate
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extreme where you're left to the bare essence of humanity just to survive and and how you survive
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you can survive with dignity or you can serve i mean we all have a choice no matter what we have a choice
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so we can choose how we respond you know we can't choose what happens to us we can choose how we
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respond that's that that was interesting too you also talk about how humor uh is important to set
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packs and problems like that it's always trying to find the joy you know the true marrow of life
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now greg popovich was one of the individuals you interviewed and i've always been a big fan of san
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antonio spurs it's one of those basketball teams they're they've done consistently well but they're
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not flashy they're very workaday and they've developed this um you know popovich has been able to create
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this atmosphere within the team that's very team first it's not about the individual like you see in the
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free agents out there from your conversation with you had with him what did he do to develop this
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ethos of team first you know i look at the experiences of a greg popovich and i'll make
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another example of uh coach k and duke you know both were service academy graduates greg popovich was
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from the air force academy and coach k being from west point but they're both have dynasties duke has
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been a you know consistently this i think this is the first time in i don't know how many seasons
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that they've actually dropped out of the top 25 as a ranked team but over the years you know national
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champions uh last year and then you look at coach pop how many you know nba titles has he won in the
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last he's they've established dynasties and why is that it's because they take the importance it's more
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than just basketball in the culture that they're they're nurturing it's it's about coaching the
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individual the man coach pop cares about one the individual guys that he's recruiting or that they're
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wanting to bring on to play for the spurs matters he's not going to get a guy who can't laugh at
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himself who has that self-deprecating humor or he can't he won't recruit a guy who always blames
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somebody else that you know i should have made all american but if it wasn't for my coach to give
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me that extra playing time he he just won't take him because it's it's about the me more so than
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about the we as as a team and then he also it's important for him to you know get to know the
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individual's families to know who they are as a holistic person again i use the phrase coaching the
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man because they'll do different exercises you know before team meetings about word vocabulary or hey
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we're going to name can you how many capitals of each state can you can you name little things that
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kind of break the ice but give these guys an experience beyond just you know running different
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offense or defensive sets and getting up and down down the court and how's your three-pointer or how's
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your you know free throw form it's it's about coaching the man and that's why his success is he has a
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lot of his former players come back and want to coach for him or want to be a part of the organization
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he's just establishing a culture that that matters and and and it uh it goes deeper than just what
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you're doing for an occupation or a job and this means he's probably turned down some really great
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talent you know he's not banking on it right he's thinking something long term here he's not putting
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success all in just one player exactly it is it's a long-term vision you're not going to get there
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overnight he didn't get there overnight but once you get you know you get people to buy into that
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vision as as your players and understand the importance of it you have that connectivity and
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that call it the skin in the game where you're wanting you want to be a part of that and he like
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his tim duncan's and um several of the other players could have gone off to free agency or taking
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more money but they chose to stay there to take less because they want to they realize the importance of
00:25:35.640
being around that that culture and those core values that coach pop has said you know there's
00:25:40.840
lots of other individuals we could talk about in your book but there's one i want to talk about
00:25:44.400
because i think it's important a fellow by the name of carrie casey uh he devoted his life to being a
00:25:50.420
role model and being a mentor and i think for the folks who are listening to this all of us here are
00:25:54.540
well well not all of us are some of us are fathers and some of us just have young men in our lives that
00:26:00.280
we could be mentoring i think it's an important aspect of passing on character the next generation
00:26:04.600
what did you learn from casey about the best way of going about mentoring the next generation of
00:26:10.780
young men young people to have good strong character you know i what i learned for him is
00:26:15.760
you know carrie is the ceo for the national center on fathering is that fathers matter you know it does
00:26:21.920
take a family a mother and a father you know to raise children because from dads a child gets that
00:26:30.940
sense of identity and that sense of values from the mother you know from the father from the mother
00:26:36.200
they'll get empathy and and feeling and and the nurturing aspect it's because male and female but
00:26:43.420
what i learned from him is that it takes time it's not something that you have yeah you want to provide a
00:26:51.340
good material uh upbringing for your kids you know to do your best but what matters the most what your
00:26:57.580
kids want the most is your time your attention and i and i'll admit i was i've been guilty of that in
00:27:04.220
you know when i was playing for the cowboys i had young children and there was so much
00:27:07.900
stress and you know and being a dallas cowboy at times when you're trying to get that team position
00:27:14.280
you're either trying to make the team or maintain your starting position or preparation for a game
00:27:18.840
that many times i can looking back that i was home physically but home i wasn't home mentally i was
00:27:25.500
thinking about other things and i just wasn't there and i did not give my kids the time and when i
00:27:31.160
realized that that it that it matters it's just not it's both quality as well as quantity of time
00:27:37.600
and carrie has done this so much that he he mentors a lot of you know whether they're black white athletes
00:27:44.780
um non-athletes that it matters because you got to let them know that you care and how do you let
00:27:52.160
them know that you care is by spending time with them and and that's the thing that for those of
00:27:58.540
you guys who are out there listening right now that are dads you need to spend the time and it's not
00:28:03.360
just five minutes here ten minutes there get that one-on-one time find something to do common with your
00:28:08.520
kids where you can talk because again the kids if you're not exemplifying it if you're just talking
00:28:14.900
about well this is a lesson on character today son they're thinking they're in a classroom and they
00:28:19.660
don't want that they want to spend time with you where it's a natural part of the conversation
00:28:24.080
love that well chad this has been a great conversation where can people learn more about
00:28:27.960
you and your work you can go to uh forces of character.com or you can go to chad hennings.com
00:28:34.140
either one of those you can um learn more about what i'm doing as well as um learn about the book
00:28:41.400
chad hennings thank you so much for your time it's been a pleasure hey thank you brett my guest
00:28:45.940
today was chad hennings he's the author of the book forces of character and you can find that
00:28:49.740
on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere or find out more information about the book at forces of
00:28:53.840
character.com well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips
00:29:01.060
and advice make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com and if
00:29:04.640
you enjoy the podcast i'd really appreciate it if you give us a review on itunes or stitcher
00:29:08.100
as always i appreciate the support and until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay