The Art of Manliness - #193： F＊ck Feelings

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:19.360 So it's become an article of faith in our modern world that if you're feeling depressed,

00:00:23.500 unmotivated, angry, anxious, well, what you need to do is think about why you're feeling

00:00:30.300 that way or go talk to a therapist and try to figure out why you're having these emotions

00:00:34.120 or these feelings.

00:00:35.320 And then once you do that, it will magically solve things.

00:00:38.760 Well, what if doing that, thinking about your feelings all the time actually makes the problem

00:00:43.800 worse?

00:00:44.880 Well, that's the argument my guests, they make in their book.

00:00:47.680 It's called F Feelings.

00:00:49.480 And yes, that F is what you think it stands for.

00:00:51.980 Uh, it's a father and daughter team.

00:00:54.220 Uh, the father is named Michael Bennett.

00:00:56.020 He's actually a psychiatrist.

00:00:57.260 The daughter is Sarah Bennett and she's a comedian writer and they teamed up to write, uh, you

00:01:02.440 know, despite the title, the, the, the controversial title, um, it's there on purpose.

00:01:06.420 It's one of the most straightforward, practical, no foo-foo books about managing your psychology

00:01:12.800 and your emotional life that I've read.

00:01:14.800 And today on the podcast, Michael and Sarah and I discuss, you know, why you shouldn't think

00:01:19.280 about your feelings so much, why it can be unproductive, what to do about anger, what

00:01:23.320 to do about anxiety, how to approach self-improvement so that it's actually productive and not masturbatory, what to do about

00:01:31.540 addiction and things like that.

00:01:33.060 A really great podcast, a lot of practical information.

00:01:35.600 Uh, so take notes.

00:01:36.720 So I think you're going to like this and after the show's over, make sure to check out the

00:01:39.980 show notes for links to resources, studies that we've mentioned in the podcast.

00:01:44.060 You can find that at aom.is slash F feelings.

00:01:48.060 So just F feelings, all one word.

00:01:50.060 And as always, I'd appreciate it.

00:01:51.800 If you give us review of the podcast on iTunes or Stitcher, if you've enjoyed it and just

00:01:55.940 a heads up, don't worry.

00:01:56.960 Uh, even though the book is called F feelings, we don't swear in this podcast.

00:02:00.880 So, uh, you don't have to bleep it out or anything like that, or not listen to it.

00:02:04.420 If that sort of thing offends you, uh, we keep it pretty straightforward and practical.

00:02:08.440 So without further ado, Michael Bennett, Sarah Bennett, and why you shouldn't really worry

00:02:13.180 about your feelings so much.

00:02:20.060 Okay, Sarah and Michael Bennett, welcome to the show.

00:02:30.300 Thanks for having us.

00:02:31.460 So you all are the, uh, the daughter father team who wrote the book called F feelings.

00:02:39.020 Um, it's about, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a book about, uh, dealing with life's problems,

00:02:44.520 uh, from a, a shrinks perspective.

00:02:47.360 I'm curious, why did you two decide?

00:02:49.800 So Michael, you're the shrink, uh, Sarah, you are a comedy writer.

00:02:54.300 What was the genesis?

00:02:55.400 How did you guys decide?

00:02:56.480 Was it over like Christmas dinner one day, you decided we're going to write a book, uh,

00:03:01.300 about, you know, psychotherapy or psychiatry?

00:03:05.240 Uh, well, it was over many childhood dinners, actually.

00:03:08.120 Both my parents are psychiatrists, um, and they would, you know, bring their work home.

00:03:12.420 They would talk about cases with each other, obviously within the HIPAA guidelines.

00:03:16.580 Um, but they would always ask for advice, you know, what would you do with this patient?

00:03:21.440 What, what do you, do you think I did the right thing, et cetera?

00:03:24.280 So, uh, I was raised around talk of mental illness and problem solving really.

00:03:30.580 Because after my parents worked in a mental hospital, um, they both worked more in, in private

00:03:36.440 facilities.

00:03:37.180 My mother ran an inpatient program.

00:03:38.740 My father was in private practice.

00:03:40.580 So it was more about hearing two professional advice givers sort of talking shop.

00:03:46.420 And this phrase of blank feelings is something my father would say, um, both around the dinner

00:03:53.100 table and to his patients.

00:03:55.380 So at one point as an adult, I was living in LA and trying to work, but there was a big

00:04:00.840 writer's strike.

00:04:01.540 So there was no work for anybody.

00:04:03.400 And I was looking for something to do.

00:04:05.160 And I realized, uh, finally, maybe it's time to help my dad write some of his ideas down.

00:04:09.980 He's had a lot of patients over the years.

00:04:11.500 He'd say, tell him, I wish I'd written that down.

00:04:13.660 Um, a lot of them were pretty ADD and wouldn't remember once they left his office or in the

00:04:18.060 heat of an argument with a spouse or a parent, they wouldn't remember his advice.

00:04:21.960 So I just saw this opportunity to help him put that advice down on paper and make sure

00:04:26.460 that his sense of humor remained intact.

00:04:28.720 Because if you don't know that he's trying to be funny, um, you might just think he's 1.00

00:04:33.060 a massive jerk. 0.99

00:04:33.880 So that's my job is to make sure you know that he's being funny. 1.00

00:04:37.120 He's not really saying, you know, that he's the smartest person in the world because

00:04:41.340 he went to Harvard.

00:04:41.980 He's just trying to make you laugh and make you think to knock you out of the rut that

00:04:46.420 you're probably in.

00:04:47.540 That's sending you to talk to a shrink in the first place.

00:04:50.660 Right.

00:04:51.420 I mean, let's, let's talk about the, the title, you know, or that catchphrase that your, your

00:04:55.840 dad would say at the dinner table, you know, blank feelings, F feelings.

00:04:59.500 Cause it's an interesting take because it flies in the face of traditional psychotherapy,

00:05:05.520 you know, self-help literature that says, you know, no feelings are the most important

00:05:09.880 thing.

00:05:12.240 Like you should work on managing your feelings, work on being positive, work on being happy.

00:05:16.840 Uh, so why should we give up on worrying about our feelings so much?

00:05:21.900 Well, the expectation that you could make yourself happy or that you could work out your feelings.

00:05:29.700 I mean, sometimes you can, but usually by the time people came to see me, it was very

00:05:36.180 clear that they couldn't, that there was something about their lives at that time or their personalities

00:05:43.140 or the people they were living with, maybe people they had to live with that wasn't going

00:05:48.480 to get better.

00:05:49.720 And the expectation that they should be able to control that was making them worse.

00:05:55.140 So shocking them into the idea that maybe as painful as their situation, uh, is, was that

00:06:03.960 it wasn't going to be controlled.

00:06:05.500 Um, they would have to think more about making the best of it, um, would often be, uh, lead

00:06:13.200 to a very good, if both a funny and a sad conversation.

00:06:18.320 And, uh, when those conversations took place, I, and, and usually the patient felt they'd been

00:06:25.120 very helpful.

00:06:26.400 And that's what, uh, Sarah and I were trying to capture.

00:06:30.100 It was more a segment of conversation, including a lot of what patients brought to the table.

00:06:36.260 Right.

00:06:36.760 And I, I've noticed that in my own life too.

00:06:38.800 Uh, whenever I start focusing on my, like when I'm down, I'm feeling kind of in the dumps,

00:06:43.740 like an Eeyore, uh, and I start focusing on like, why, why do I feel like this?

00:06:48.560 Uh, I just end up feeling worse instead of better, which is so weird because I think, yeah,

00:06:54.900 we're, we've been conditioned in our culture to be like little Freuds to ourselves and, and

00:06:59.960 try to figure out the cause of these feelings, but it might not be that productive is what

00:07:04.280 you're arguing.

00:07:05.160 Maybe it's worth trying once or twice because sometimes it is productive, but what we don't

00:07:10.680 seem to have is an off switch that says, no, this is not working.

00:07:15.520 This is one of those mysteries that goes beyond what I'm going to figure out or what my shrink

00:07:21.360 is going to figure out.

00:07:22.720 I need to turn this off and figure out what I'm going to do about it.

00:07:27.660 Now people seem to confuse, oh, sorry.

00:07:30.780 People seem to get this notion that if I can get to the root of why I do something, I can

00:07:35.200 stop it.

00:07:36.480 Um, cause that's sort of how we're conditioned to solve problems.

00:07:39.600 But just if you, you know, if you are someone who had trouble being faithful in relationships

00:07:44.720 and you, you figure out, well, it's because my father was unfaithful.

00:07:48.660 That was easy.

00:07:49.560 That doesn't then flip a switch and make you somebody who is now faithful in relationships.

00:07:53.400 Um, maybe then ruminating on that problem will kind of give you an excuse almost to be unfaithful

00:08:00.900 from here on.

00:08:01.880 Maybe now you're going to get frustrated because you feel like, but I figured it out.

00:08:05.280 I should have control over this, but it's not that simple.

00:08:08.380 So getting to the root of problems feels like then you could find the solution there, but

00:08:12.620 that's not always the case when it comes to bad habits.

00:08:15.680 It's more about learning to manage the problem on a daily basis and trying to find an answer

00:08:20.780 to the problem that will make it go away entirely.

00:08:24.000 So, uh, in the beginning of the book, you talk about, and you just talked a little bit

00:08:27.120 about this, Michael, uh, sort of the, the expectations people have, and you discussed that there's a

00:08:32.420 difference between wishes and goals and that often people make goals that are really wishes,

00:08:38.680 uh, for the lives.

00:08:40.080 Can you give some common examples of goals people set for themselves when it comes to their

00:08:45.460 emotional life or just living that are actually wishes?

00:08:48.700 Well, uh, the, the most common one is that they want to make a relationship happier or

00:08:56.520 smoother without stopping to think of why it's not happy or not smooth and whether it is really

00:09:05.580 in their hands at all.

00:09:07.700 So I'm often saying to people, look, it's understandable that you wish this were better, but it's like

00:09:14.700 your goal is to have good weather.

00:09:18.560 What's the difference?

00:09:20.240 And they say, well, I don't control the weather.

00:09:23.560 That's it.

00:09:24.680 There's an element here you don't control and you need to think about that.

00:09:29.560 So you're, you're basically, you have to be a little stoic, right?

00:09:34.200 Not being perturbed by things that are outside of your control.

00:09:37.920 Well, you can't exactly help the way you feel about it.

00:09:43.120 If it really hurts, it really hurts.

00:09:45.460 And yeah, you have to be stoic, but it also helps to have values so that you really appreciate

00:09:52.380 that when you're being stoic in a good cause, that that really deserves respect.

00:09:59.080 You're not just sitting there and taking it and, and, and, and being passive.

00:10:05.400 You're sitting there and taking it often because you believe in something.

00:10:09.540 You're really trying to make the best of something.

00:10:11.960 And that means sitting still.

00:10:14.420 You know, there was Milton's old line about, they also serve who only stand and wait.

00:10:19.640 Well, a lot of times there's nothing you can do.

00:10:23.780 So your highest moral moment sometimes is just enduring a hard time without making it worse.

00:10:32.480 And so, I mean, what would be, okay, so if wishes, you know, a wish would be like,

00:10:35.880 I wish my relationship was better or smoother.

00:10:40.520 How can we turn that wish into a more productive goal where we actually can do something,

00:10:46.260 you know, recognize what we have control over and don't have control over and focusing

00:10:50.780 on the things we do have control over?

00:10:53.420 Well, especially in family relationships, you know, people often say, I wish I got along

00:10:58.720 with my mother better and think that the way to do that is to have a confrontation or to

00:11:04.260 let her know exactly how she hurt you and, and what you need from her in the future.

00:11:09.620 And odds are if, you know, you've had a parent, the same parent for 30 years and you've never

00:11:14.480 gotten along, you're probably, you just, you're not going to get along now.

00:11:17.900 What you can control is where the conversation goes, what you're willing to talk about, how

00:11:23.100 much time you spend together, whether you're going to take the bait and get into arguments.

00:11:28.480 That's what my father's talking about.

00:11:30.200 And what you were talking about in terms of stoicism, it doesn't feel great to have your

00:11:34.100 mother berate you for something you haven't done.

00:11:36.260 But instead of fighting back, you can calmly change the subject.

00:11:40.040 You can calmly excuse yourself from the room or from the house in general.

00:11:44.740 And it doesn't feel good to have that, to not fight back.

00:11:48.420 But if your goal is to have a peaceable relationship, then there are certain sacrifices that are worth

00:11:55.260 making to keep the peace.

00:11:57.400 And also because you know that if you go to war, if you get into this fight, nobody's going

00:12:02.720 to win.

00:12:03.040 You're never going to change her mind and she's never going to change yours.

00:12:06.840 Your greater goal is just getting along, not trying to change each other, not trying

00:12:11.100 to win each other over to your point of view, because that's never worked in the past.

00:12:14.860 So that means making those sorts of limits, creating those sorts of boundaries and accepting

00:12:20.640 I'm never going to have a lovey-dovey, you know, sitcom parental relationship.

00:12:26.060 But I can have one that isn't World War III every time a holiday rolls around.

00:12:32.520 And if there are ways to do it that aren't excruciating, like just setting limits, setting

00:12:37.260 time limits, whatever you need to do, then it's worth doing what you need to do to make

00:12:41.140 that possible.

00:12:41.700 So we're big ones for inviting people to look for patterns.

00:12:46.880 Usually if somebody is causing you a lot of trouble or even if, you know, you caused a

00:12:52.460 lot of trouble by some personal habit of your own, there's lots of evidence that it's ingrained

00:12:58.680 and that it's not easy to change, that there's good reason not to take it too personally and

00:13:03.840 not to hold yourself too responsible so that you can switch over to, okay, I don't understand

00:13:11.760 it, but it's bigger than I am.

00:13:14.400 How could I manage it so that it will do the least damage?

00:13:18.700 Right.

00:13:18.820 I think this, that understanding that some temperaments are inborn and there's not much

00:13:24.200 you can do about it except for managing.

00:13:26.220 And I know people who have suffered from depression and I feel like they actually beat themselves

00:13:31.660 up even more because they're thinking, why, why can't I be happy?

00:13:34.080 And they do all these things.

00:13:35.560 And I guess a more productive approach would be like, well, yeah, maybe I'm just by nature

00:13:39.200 and Eeyore, but there's some things I can do to manage it and not be like insufferable

00:13:45.320 around people and have a good productive life despite that.

00:13:49.300 Scientifically, that has been almost a revolution in thought over the time of my career.

00:13:55.300 When I started out, we were really thought that the cure to depression was to understand

00:14:02.840 the issues that were bothering you or get you to stop turning your anger inward.

00:14:08.360 Something like that.

00:14:09.620 And that was what a lot of movies were about.

00:14:13.700 But then all this evidence came out that linked it to genetic factors.

00:14:19.060 And the epidemiology of it was that if you had a really bad depression or two, you were

00:14:25.020 almost certain to get another one sooner or later.

00:14:28.120 And it didn't matter whether you got the greatest psychotherapy or had a terrific life.

00:14:33.360 There was still the odds were that you could get another depression.

00:14:39.520 And while that's terribly, you know, that's bad news, we have so little control over something

00:14:46.100 that can cause a lot of pain. 0.75

00:14:48.100 The good news was that we've been taking much too much responsibility on ourselves for depression

00:14:55.320 and its recurrence and that we can fight the negative thoughts of depression by treating

00:15:01.300 it more like it's an attack of lupus or an attack of colitis.

00:15:07.480 So, I mean, are you...

00:15:08.780 I'm wondering if you're suggesting is what you do, Michael, sort of cognitive behavioral

00:15:12.780 therapy?

00:15:13.360 Or do you even say, think that could be problematic for people?

00:15:16.320 Because I guess the underlying assumption is that, you know, you can do something about

00:15:20.820 your thoughts, right, with cognitive behavioral therapy.

00:15:23.760 Well, I think it's cognitive behavioral therapy or cognitive therapy in the sense that I think

00:15:29.280 philosophy is supposed to be or good thinking about ethics or studying Talmud.

00:15:35.880 You're trying to do what's right and gain self-esteem from that.

00:15:40.340 And when you know you're doing the best to be a decent person and live a life while you're

00:15:45.600 suffering from pain and disability and feel humiliated and are having trouble making a

00:15:51.760 living, that deserves so much respect.

00:15:55.360 I've always thought that's at the center of a lot of ethical and religious thinking.

00:16:00.400 And that part of it is very, very therapeutic.

00:16:03.960 It's about how to feel better inside when life really sucks. 0.89

00:16:09.840 Right.

00:16:10.000 So it's very, very Jobian, very Greek tragedy-like.

00:16:13.940 Yes, and the Psalms, too.

00:16:16.940 Right.

00:16:18.240 It's important to not, because there's some confusion over it in terms of people saying,

00:16:23.620 well, if you resign yourself to the fact that you get depressed, are you then being apathetic?

00:16:28.080 And that's not true at all.

00:16:29.600 It's saying that when you accept that you have this disease in your life, that you don't just

00:16:35.500 take it lying down, actually.

00:16:37.220 If the depressive voice tells you you're worthless, you don't then ignore your feelings or hate

00:16:41.720 yourself for having them or try to change them.

00:16:43.940 You just answer back to them.

00:16:45.520 I think that's more of what cognitive behavioral therapy is about in terms of saying back to

00:16:49.800 that voice, I know I'm not useless because today I did get out of bed and I was a good

00:16:54.940 parent or I was a good sibling or I was a good daughter or son to my parents.

00:17:00.880 And then the other important part is taking pride in what you can accomplish when you know

00:17:06.940 that you're dealing with an illness.

00:17:08.000 It's a huge deal sometimes just to put your pants on when you're going through a bad period

00:17:12.260 of depression, to put a brush through your hair and leave the house and go to work.

00:17:16.300 And you deserve to give yourself credit for accomplishing those things.

00:17:19.320 Other people do them every day without thinking about it.

00:17:21.640 But when you're sick, it can feel like it takes all the effort you have down to your bones.

00:17:27.740 And you need to give yourself a pat on the back for being able to accomplish those things.

00:17:31.740 It can define the positivity in all the negativity.

00:17:34.400 So, I mean, it sounds like here then we should be focusing on the process, not so much on the

00:17:41.360 results in terms of feelings, because feelings are fleeting and they can change and you don't

00:17:46.100 have much control over that.

00:17:47.680 I think you put your finger on it, that we tend to focus on results like happiness or wealth

00:17:53.960 or that have a huge amount of good luck in them.

00:17:57.560 And a lot of the essence of pulling back from that, a lot of the essence of cognitive therapy

00:18:04.520 is to ignore the results as much as we want good results and focus on the process and literally

00:18:11.900 doing your best according to your values.

00:18:15.120 So, you have a chapter called Blank Self-Improvement.

00:18:19.240 Very Tyler Durden, Fight Club title there.

00:18:25.540 But I mean, I think it's interesting.

00:18:27.220 I do think that we live in a culture that's very focused on self-improvement.

00:18:32.780 There's self-improvement blogs, self-improvement books, podcasts.

00:18:37.100 I mean, I guess you can kind of say we might be a self-improvement podcast.

00:18:39.620 I'm part of the problem.

00:18:40.180 But is, I mean, does this culture, is this culture actually kind of making us miserable

00:18:45.300 in a way?

00:18:47.020 Well, as you know, we don't care if it makes you miserable. 0.97

00:18:53.520 But we think it makes you sick.

00:18:56.580 That it's natural to want to improve, but you always hit a limit.

00:19:01.300 There's some things you just don't do well.

00:19:03.720 So, I watch my friends at a certain age, whatever their timing in their running or their weights

00:19:12.240 or whatever is going to get worse, not better.

00:19:17.060 And sooner or later, you really need to focus on the process, what you do with what you've

00:19:23.500 got.

00:19:24.020 That's a much deeper moral dimension.

00:19:28.380 So, again, I think it's what you said earlier.

00:19:31.600 We tend to focus, by human nature, on the result.

00:19:36.540 And to really judge ourselves fairly and constructively, we have to continually force ourselves to think

00:19:46.020 about what we've got to contend with.

00:19:48.620 It's just another way, really, of saying the serenity prayer and trying to turn it into a

00:19:54.820 procedure.

00:19:55.300 Also, the problem with so much written self-help seems to be that it puts the onus for improvement

00:20:02.680 squarely on the reader and asks you to take responsibility for so many things you can't

00:20:09.120 control.

00:20:10.140 So that when you're not then happy after reading the advice, it feels like your fault.

00:20:15.040 You know, as we've been saying, happiness isn't something you control entirely.

00:20:18.520 An example we always use is you can wake up early, you know, exercise, work on your aspiration

00:20:25.340 collage or whatever the secret calls it, decide that day you're going to be happy and meet

00:20:29.940 goals, take one step out of the house, and then a bird crafts on your head.

00:20:34.020 You know, now you're not happy, but you didn't tell the bird where to eat breakfast or use

00:20:38.200 the toilet that morning.

00:20:39.240 It's not your responsibility that you don't feel happy anymore.

00:20:42.040 But you can feel like, this is, why can't I be happy?

00:20:45.780 I did all these things today.

00:20:47.200 Why am I letting this bring me down?

00:20:49.240 You're letting it bring you down because it's gross.

00:20:50.680 It's a terrible start to the day.

00:20:52.300 And it seems like so many self-help books make it seem like your happiness is in your

00:20:56.540 own hands.

00:20:57.320 And that's so not fair to people, to readers, to anybody to take that on.

00:21:02.560 Your happiness is mostly linked to luck.

00:21:06.020 And you can be the best person you can and you can do the best you can.

00:21:09.360 But expecting to be happy, to be able to make yourself happy is probably just going to

00:21:14.660 make you miserable.

00:21:15.780 Listening to you two talk about this, I want to go back to you. 0.53

00:21:19.420 Michael, you kind of refer to this.

00:21:20.380 This isn't really so much cognitive behavioral therapy.

00:21:24.520 It's just good philosophy towards life.

00:21:26.220 I mean, when I was hearing you talk, it reminded me of, I guess, those inscriptions on the

00:21:30.880 Temple of Delphi, right?

00:21:32.520 Like, know thyself and then like moderation in all things.

00:21:36.840 It sounds like that's what you're advocating.

00:21:38.560 It's like, know what your limits are.

00:21:40.460 Know that you're not going to be able to get thinner at a certain age or you're not going

00:21:45.880 to be as fast or athletic past a certain age.

00:21:50.020 And then working with what you got.

00:21:52.060 Don't try to exceed beyond what you're capable of doing possibly.

00:21:55.960 Well, we certainly think you need to try to stretch your limits.

00:22:02.880 And that, you know, so many great things in life that younger people achieve are because they have

00:22:13.320 a real interest and talent and take it to the limit.

00:22:16.380 But I think it's equally true that there is always a limit.

00:22:22.120 And again, it's how you shift gears, how you recognize when you reach that limit and shift gears and decide, okay, this isn't my fault.

00:22:33.540 I'd like to take it further.

00:22:35.140 Everybody has told me, you know, it's sort of like what they say about the Red Sox, especially around spring training.

00:22:43.620 And all the sports writers are talking about everybody's potential.

00:22:47.700 It must drive those guys crazy.

00:22:49.720 So going back to this idea of where we, people have a tendency to psychoanalyze themselves and trying to figure out the root of their problems.

00:23:01.660 Like we ask why questions, like why do I cheat?

00:23:04.740 Why do I eat that chocolate cake?

00:23:07.220 Why do I, you know, why do I have an anger problem?

00:23:10.920 You guys argue that we should be asking sort of why we should be asking how, what do you all mean by that?

00:23:16.520 We just mean that you ask, how do you deal with it?

00:23:22.660 If there is some cause that you can manage, you know, somebody discovers a pill that will change your fat metabolism and you gain weight from that cake because of some biochemistry that's no one.

00:23:38.460 Oh, give me that pill. 0.95

00:23:39.860 I'd love it.

00:23:40.520 But until that arrives, some people gain weight and some people don't.

00:23:48.660 At some point or other, it was probably a survival trait that the people who gain weight would get through the winter famine better because their bodies hang on to fat.

00:24:00.220 A lot of it seems to link up to evolutionary things that, I mean, a trait may cause you a lot of misery, but still, if it helps a large number of people survive,

00:24:14.820 it tends to remain in the gene pool, well, whatever it is, it's a mystery and it's usually beyond us at some point, particularly in medicine.

00:24:28.780 Now, doctors, too, and therapists have a lot of trouble with that point.

00:24:33.800 We feel responsible for finding an answer and coming up with answers.

00:24:38.780 And what is harder for us, for everybody, I think, is to recognize when there is no answer and shift to the, so what do you do then?

00:24:51.840 Yeah, also when people, especially people that have problems with addiction and want to ask why, it's usually just a tactic to delay doing anything that's actually constructive.

00:25:02.420 I mean, you can try and figure out why you drink forever.

00:25:06.520 You might not come up with an answer.

00:25:08.380 What's more important is that you figure out how to manage your drinking now.

00:25:12.460 And at a certain point, too, you can try and get to the bottom of why can't I eat as much as other people I know?

00:25:19.760 Why is it that one bite of cake will cause me to gain 25 pounds?

00:25:22.640 And it might be because, like my dad said, you have peasant genes that hold on to weight with a metaphorical white fist. 0.81

00:25:32.840 But if you're someone who has those issues, you have to come to a point where you think, I can either manage my diet better, I can either have a crazy diet where I only eat 500 calories a day so I can be the weight that I want,

00:25:44.940 or I can have a healthy diet that works for me and accept, you know, what is the best I'm going to look, what is the best weight I can achieve that doesn't make my schedule crazy

00:25:56.000 and, you know, make it impossible to spend time with friends because I'm on a cleanse every other day of the week.

00:26:03.020 That's the limits you have to determine for yourself.

00:26:05.980 But at a certain point, it's not worth trying to figure out why anymore because that's probably just letting you procrastinate.

00:26:12.180 You just have to make your own decisions about what's best for you, what will work best for you, and what will help you get your problem to a point that you feel comfortable with.

00:26:21.920 So I imagine there's people who are listening who might be in a funk of some sort, and they know what they need to do, right?

00:26:28.360 They know the processes they should focus on to manage it.

00:26:33.080 But again, like that emotion is very – it's like a motivating factor in our lives, right?

00:26:38.040 If you don't feel like doing something, then it's hard to, like, do something you know you're supposed to do.

00:26:42.180 Even though you don't feel like it.

00:26:44.580 So I'm curious, do you have any, like, advice on bootstrapping yourself, right?

00:26:49.440 Even though you might not feel like getting out of bed, how do you get yourself to do that?

00:26:56.000 You know, because it's the right thing to do or it will help you out and help you have a functional life.

00:27:00.720 Well, what I think we've learned from the behavioral therapist is that you try to do it with other people, that you try to let other people into your life, whether it's a friend or a spouse or a therapist,

00:27:20.800 and work with them to create a schedule and get very, very specific about what you need to do, and then check with them through the day about whether you're doing it.

00:27:32.520 If it's really severe, that's about all they do in day hospital treatment is they walk with you through your day, doing their best to get you up, out, eating, and doing things one after the other.

00:27:49.040 And very often, just having that person at your elbow is just what you need.

00:27:55.480 You really want to do it.

00:27:56.900 You just can't quite get up the energy.

00:27:59.700 And that other person gives you the energy, and then you start to build a habit and do it at the same time with the same person every day.

00:28:08.180 And before you know it, you're moving.

00:28:10.140 It's important, too, not to beat yourself up and say, you know, come on, get yourself out of bed, don't be a loser, you know, let that negativity seep into motivation you might have.

00:28:23.180 It's more thinking of what are the important goals for me?

00:28:26.340 What kind of person do I want my actions to reflect?

00:28:31.200 So if getting out of bed means providing for your family, then that's the motivation that you can use.

00:28:37.860 And by getting out of bed, like I said, you give yourself an enormous amount of credit.

00:28:43.340 But it's acknowledging, yes, I'm very sick right now.

00:28:47.480 I feel really down.

00:28:48.620 This is going to be really hard.

00:28:50.620 But these are really important goals for me to set.

00:28:54.040 It's very important for me to be this kind of person, both for myself or for my family, as an example, for my kids.

00:29:01.220 And if I can't meet those goals, I know that I did my best to meet them.

00:29:04.920 I'm not going to beat myself up, but there's a very good reason for me to meet these goals and to ignore what my mood is telling me and press on either way.

00:29:15.340 So you have a chapter called Blank Fairness.

00:29:19.900 And I think there's this – I think in a lot of people there's this very ingrained idea that, you know, life should be fair.

00:29:26.020 And I think this could be the cause of a lot of frustration, depression, cause of anger.

00:29:32.100 Because even – I think a lot of people make this sort of like hidden bargains with people, like saying, if I did this for you, then like you should do something for me.

00:29:42.880 And then when that person doesn't do something for you, you get upset and angry.

00:29:47.180 But so how do you get rid of that ingrained idea in your head that life should be fair?

00:29:54.500 Because it seems like that's probably the root cause of a lot of angst and anger in people's lives.

00:30:01.320 Well, one thing we all do is we watch a lot of TV and movies where the bad guy really gets it.

00:30:07.920 And one reason I think we do that is because that's the only place we're going to get that satisfaction.

00:30:19.780 The rest, you know, getting philosophical with somebody else who understands why you're angry and why you're outraged.

00:30:31.340 But also understand that if you do anything, it will make things worse.

00:30:39.500 That helps.

00:30:43.220 That's about the only way you can do it.

00:30:45.420 I mean, I think we run the risk every day of our yearning for justice, getting us into trouble.

00:30:52.640 Road rage is the most obvious example.

00:30:56.540 And it builds up.

00:30:58.560 And I guess one of the less constructive things we do is sort of harbor resentment.

00:31:05.720 So we blame whoever the authority is for not giving us a better world, usually the president or the governor or somebody.

00:31:15.080 Which is why even the most popular politician has usually become a goat after 8 or 12 years in office.

00:31:23.080 But it's hard for us to step back.

00:31:27.600 And I think that's one of the reasons it's good to sort of study philosophy or study scripture as a way of contemplating the unfairness of the world

00:31:40.480 and thinking positively what does a good person do with that since we can't often do good by taking arms or even sometimes by speaking up.

00:31:57.080 How can we do good?

00:31:58.860 I think that was something Moynihan raised when he said sometimes helping poor people with money in certain situations won't do any good.

00:32:10.400 It will do more harm than good.

00:32:12.820 How do you do good when you're helpless?

00:32:15.640 Sometimes it's a matter of waiting until the right opportunity.

00:32:19.520 You can't do anything right now, but you don't give up.

00:32:22.780 You're waiting.

00:32:23.280 So going back to this idea of relationships, and I think, Sarah, you mentioned it too, this idea that if you have a bad relationship with your parent,

00:32:35.180 you decide one day this Thanksgiving, like I'm going to have an intervention with them and just like let them know how they've made me feel.

00:32:42.520 And I think that's a very popular idea that this will solve problems, like having that open and frank discussion with folks.

00:32:50.240 But it seems like in the book you all argue that sometimes that might not be productive at all, and maybe you should just not do that.

00:32:57.800 Yeah, my favorite joke in the book, and it's not mine, it's my dad, is in the context of describing couples therapy, which is a little crass, but nothing describes it better.

00:33:09.440 Where he says that people often go to couples therapy because they feel basically having a fight with a referee where you get to unload everything about your spouse that bothers you.

00:33:18.920 But that doing so and venting like that is a lot like venting intestinal gas, in that it provides you with a moment of intense catharsis, but then poisons the air for you and everyone around you.

00:33:31.240 So in having venting to a parent is a lot, is exactly the same.

00:33:37.120 You can feel this amazing catharsis of I finally let him or her know what he did to me, how he made me feel.

00:33:45.200 But it's just going to make that person defensive and angry.

00:33:49.520 If it's the kind of parent who feels like a victim all the time, you're reinforcing that narrative of my child is always attacking me and doesn't appreciate me.

00:34:00.180 It's not going to further anyone, your goal, certainly, of creating peace.

00:34:04.680 It's not going to, I don't think ever in the history of time has a parent said, oh my goodness, I realized I've been wrong this whole time.

00:34:11.680 I'm a terrible human being.

00:34:13.360 That's not what occurs. 0.67

00:34:15.160 It's more, I realize that you're a terrible human being because you're so cruel to me and you would say these things to me.

00:34:20.980 And it just, it sends things off of a cliff.

00:34:23.940 So people would like to believe that the airing of feelings makes for a more peaceful relationship.

00:34:30.100 But it's, again, like the airing of gas, it just makes for a poisonous atmosphere.

00:34:35.260 What Al-Anon helps people to do is, if they can control the negative feelings, is to share more positive observations.

00:34:52.140 You can have a fairly even-tempered and more pleasant discussion about somebody's alcoholism.

00:35:02.560 If you're really raising it as an issue that you're asking them about, you're asking them to define their own standards, to look at it themselves.

00:35:16.620 You're not trying to, you're not using phrases like bad choices or how do you think that makes people feel.

00:35:28.540 You're trying to stay away from negative emotions and run a sort of forceful seminar on how you think about this so that you can take proper care of yourself.

00:35:42.660 That a good intervention can be fairly punchy if it's not angry.

00:35:52.120 I like that.

00:35:56.200 Well, Michael and Sarah, this has been a great conversation.

00:35:58.900 We can get into more because you guys, I love how, I mean, the brash, irreverent humor of the book is just, it's funny, but I love the practical tips in it.

00:36:08.120 Where can people find out more about your work and the book?

00:36:11.260 Well, we have a website that is fxckfeelings.com where we answer reader questions for advice, not as frequently as we'd like to because we've been first working on the first book and now working on another book.

00:36:26.960 But people can, through the website, contact us and we will answer your questions eventually, I promise.

00:36:34.120 Yes. We're also on Facebook, which is fxckfeelings and Twitter and somebody more savvy than me is probably running an Instagram or a Tumblr.

00:36:43.000 I always say that if there was such a thing as anti-social networking, I'd be all over it.

00:36:48.140 Right.

00:36:48.480 Basically a hermit.

00:36:49.320 But we do have people that help us out with these things, so we should be all over the place.

00:36:53.620 Great. Well, Sarah and Michael Bennett, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:36:57.500 Thank you for the questions. We really enjoyed them.

00:37:00.400 Yeah.

00:37:00.660 My guests, they were Michael and Sarah Bennett. They're the authors of the book F Feelings, and you can find that on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.

00:37:07.640 And you can find out more information about their website at fxckfeelings.com.

00:37:13.460 As I said earlier, if you want to check the show notes out, you can find that at aom.is slash ffeelings, all one word.

00:37:22.060 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:37:25.220 For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com.

00:37:29.680 And if you enjoy this podcast, I'd appreciate it if you'd give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher.

00:37:33.580 That helps spread the word about the show.

00:37:35.380 As always, I appreciate your continued support.

00:37:37.880 And until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.

00:37:41.060 Bye-bye.

00:37:42.120 Bye-bye.

00:37:50.320 Bye-bye.

00:37:53.880 Bye-bye.

00:37:53.920 Bye.

00:37:55.040 Bye-bye.

00:37:58.140 Bye-bye.

00:37:59.220 Bye-bye.

00:38:00.580 Bye-bye.

00:38:01.320 Bye-bye.

00:38:03.260 Bye-bye.

00:38:03.940 Bye-bye.

00:38:09.460 Bye-bye.

The Art of Manliness - April 18, 2016

#193： F＊ck Feelings

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