The Art of Manliness - #206： Extreme Ownership - Leadership Lessons from a Navy SEAL

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast we live in a time

00:00:19.040 of uncertainty complexity things are constantly changing whether it's in business politics just

00:00:24.800 life in general you're always having to constantly adapt you're having to make decisions when you

00:00:28.460 don't have all the information but the place where this complexity uncertainty is at its peak is during

00:00:33.400 combat things happen fast and you have to make decisions that are life or death when you don't

00:00:37.920 have all the information so how do you do that there's possibly insights we can get from the men

00:00:42.440 who make these sorts of decisions and lead other individuals in these sorts of situations and how

00:00:46.940 we can apply to our own lives well my guest today has done that his name is jocko wilnick he is a

00:00:51.420 retired navy seal officer served in ramadi and during his time there he developed a leadership

00:00:56.600 training protocol or program to train other navy seal officers and he taught men how to lead others

00:01:03.640 during times of intense complexity and uncertainty and he's written a book on how we can apply those

00:01:09.540 principles from the battlefield to our daily lives in business or just in our personal lives

00:01:14.780 so today on the show jocko and i discuss some of the principles one of them is extreme ownership

00:01:19.620 what that is why every leader needs to develop that we discuss how to make decisions when you don't have

00:01:25.000 all the information available to you and at the end you're gonna like you're gonna love this part

00:01:29.920 we talk about self-discipline and why it's a vital trait for every leader to develop himself but also

00:01:35.320 be able to develop in the individuals that he is following great podcast if you are a leader in any sort

00:01:41.720 of capacity you're gonna get a lot of information make sure you take notes and after the show make sure

00:01:47.020 you check out our show notes at aom.is slash jocko that's j-o-c-k-o where you can find links to

00:01:54.540 resources and information that we talked about during the show where you can dig deeper into this topic

00:01:59.340 so without further ado jocko willink and extreme ownership

00:02:02.980 jocko willink welcome to the show glad to be here so you have an impressive resume you're a successful

00:02:14.140 businessman run a business consulting firm also own an mma gym but you're also a retired navy seal

00:02:22.700 officer can we talk a bit about your curriculum vitae because i think it's going to put a lot of

00:02:28.700 our conversation today in context about your book extreme ownership sure as you said i was in the seal

00:02:37.340 teams i did 20 years in the navy i joined the navy right out of high school and went to went through

00:02:44.860 navy boot camp went to seal training got done with that and then showed up at a seal team where i did 20

00:02:51.500 years so that was pretty much my whole adult life yeah and then you you had you served an interesting time

00:02:57.100 you served before 9 11 so the dead years right yeah the dry years no war going on and you know it was

00:03:07.020 we trained hard and we we were motivated but um yeah there was no war going on so it was you you

00:03:13.980 didn't get that experience from combat you know so i didn't i didn't shoot my gun at the enemy until

00:03:20.620 i'd been in the seal teams for 13 years which is a pretty long time to be training yeah and then

00:03:26.460 the afghanistan iraq happened uh you were part of a unit called task unit bruiser um and you were a

00:03:33.340 ramadi um what was your involvement there because that was that was one of the big you know you know

00:03:39.020 flash points in the the wars yeah definitely it was a it was a tipping point as well and i was the uh

00:03:45.500 i was the commander of task unit bruiser which is basically two seal platoons and then a bunch of

00:03:52.220 support personnel that support the seal platoon so you know people that do intelligence people that

00:03:57.500 repair the radios people that repair the humvees people that take care of our weapons just basic

00:04:02.860 support like that and it ends up being about 100 people total in the task unit and then we were there

00:04:09.180 helping out the the conventional units that were actually in control of ramadi or trying to fight

00:04:14.220 for control ramadi those were uh the 228 which was a reserve unit out of pennsylvania and then they

00:04:20.140 got relieved by the 11 ad the ready first brigade which is an armored armored brigade of soldiers and

00:04:27.340 there were some marines as well and while you were there while you were a seal i thought it was

00:04:32.540 interesting you talk about in the book um you uh helped develop leadership training for navy seal

00:04:37.900 officers i'm curious what was leadership training like in the seals before you and i guess leaf

00:04:44.060 leaf leaf leaf develop your training protocols yeah so when i grew up in the seal teams the the

00:04:51.980 leadership training was really basically ojt you know on the job training and guys would show up and

00:04:59.260 if you were an enlisted guy as you went through the ranks you'd learn and you'd watch and you'd get the

00:05:04.220 job and then you'd get the next senior job and then you get the next senior job and so by the time that

00:05:08.700 you got to a real leadership position you you know you should know what you're doing and with the

00:05:15.020 officers they would get counseled and mentored by other officers and by the senior enlisted guys

00:05:23.100 and while that sometimes works amazingly if you have a super mentor that's really knows what they're doing

00:05:31.340 but that's not always the case and so you end up with some folks that don't really

00:05:35.900 know how to lead and they're teaching other people their improper leadership techniques and

00:05:42.380 so it ends up to be very bad and and so we end up with some seal platoons that would have great

00:05:47.180 leadership and some seal platoons that would have not so great leadership and so when i came back from

00:05:53.180 that deployment to ramadi which was a a very challenging deployment it was a tough fight it was

00:05:57.820 very violent and we had a lot of combat action when i got back from that deployment you know i was

00:06:05.740 really focused on making sure that people knew how to lead because what we saw on the what we saw on

00:06:10.700 the battlefield was that leadership is the most important thing and i'm not just talking about the

00:06:15.020 guys that were in the leadership positions like myself as a task unit commander or leif who is a platoon

00:06:20.460 commander but the squad commanders and the fire team leaders and even even the new guys that were just

00:06:26.460 leading their little piece of the mission that's what we're talking about when we're talking about

00:06:29.580 leadership it goes throughout the chain of command and so we wanted to make sure when i got back

00:06:33.900 we wanted to make sure that the the seals that were getting ready to deploy into that hell hole had the

00:06:40.460 same leadership capability and so that's what we did we really focused on when i took over so i took over

00:06:46.380 the training for the west coast seal teams and this is not the training that you see on tv where guys are

00:06:50.620 carrying boats on their heads and they're doing a bunch of push-ups and they're climbing ropes at an

00:06:54.940 obstacle course this training is nothing like that that's the basic seal training and it really has no

00:07:00.860 meaning in terms of becoming an actual seal and what what makes you a seal what makes you a seal is

00:07:08.380 being good a good tactician on the battlefield understanding how to shoot move and communicate

00:07:13.580 knowing small unit maneuver warfare that's what makes a good seal and so that is the the course of

00:07:19.420 instruction that i taught was getting seal platoons ready for deployments to iraq and afghanistan

00:07:24.140 so you basically institutionalized this um knowledge that was being passed down yes yes

00:07:32.620 and we took it we you know the the lessons that i had learned from the vietnam veterans back when i was

00:07:37.980 a new guy in the 90s and then i was able to test and confirm in the battle ramadi and really crystallize

00:07:46.460 those lessons learned and then we just took him and and started passing down in a more doctrinalized

00:07:51.740 format so they wouldn't get lost and so that the guys could continue to learn them and pass them

00:07:56.540 on without any hiccups or any loss of knowledge as time goes on so you spent uh 20 years as a seal

00:08:03.740 what did you do after your career as a seal ended so when i i was probably six months from retirement

00:08:11.980 and i had a guy ask me that that i knew that was the ceo of a company say hey can you come and talk to

00:08:16.380 my executives about leadership and i said sure no problem and i went up and i actually took one of

00:08:22.300 the one of the leadership briefs that i would give the young seal leaders i took one of those and i

00:08:29.180 declassified it so i took the classified missions out and i brought it up and i taught these executives

00:08:35.340 the principles that i had been teaching the seal leaders and when i got done with this brief the ceo of

00:08:41.020 the company came up to me and said hey i need you to do this for every every division i have and i

00:08:45.340 said okay well okay i can do that and then at one of those divisional meetings the ceo of the parent

00:08:51.900 company was there and he came up to me and said hey i want you to come and talk to all my ceos of

00:08:56.300 the companies that i own and i said okay great well once i went and did that there was multiple ceos that

00:09:03.340 now said hey can you come talk to my company and as this started to grow it was just word of mouth

00:09:08.060 it took off and at some point during that leif who i wrote the book with who was one of the platoon

00:09:13.660 commanders that worked for me in ramadi he had left the navy and he had started doing similar things

00:09:19.420 with some companies so we just realized that there was a real need out there to get these leadership

00:09:23.900 principles out to the public and that's what we started doing and it grew very quickly and that's

00:09:29.340 a echelon front right yeah that's the company it's called echelon front right and then besides that

00:09:34.860 so besides having that awesome fire iron in the fire you decided to start an mma gym as well i mean

00:09:39.900 what how how did that go about was it just a passion you had you just wanted to make an awesome mma gym

00:09:45.660 you know actually i the mma gym i had before echelon front i had that before i before i retired from the

00:09:50.940 navy and all it was was there was you know i've been training jujitsu and mma for a long time and i was

00:10:00.300 uh good friends and training partners with a guy named dean lister who's you know a former pride

00:10:04.940 fighter and a former ufc fighter and uh multiple time world champion in jujitsu and submission

00:10:10.860 grappling and so we had kind of bounced from gym to gym and you know none of the gyms at that time

00:10:18.300 really had everything that you would want you know there were specific jujitsu gyms there were specific

00:10:23.500 sort of conditioning strength and conditioning gyms and then specific boxing gyms and so i

00:10:31.900 kind of like things to be more efficient than that and so you know with a with another seal

00:10:36.780 buddy of mine and with dean we got together and said let's just open a place that has everything

00:10:40.620 that we need strength and conditioning you know jujitsu boxing wrestling muay thai and so that's what

00:10:46.620 we did we opened this big gym and it's been open for i don't know i think about eight years or so

00:10:51.900 no it looks impressive i went to the site to did the virtual tour and it's it looks awesome

00:10:56.140 it is it's an awesome place it's a little a little place of jujitsu heaven jujitsu heaven okay so all

00:11:03.420 this this career you've had leads up to this uh this book you wrote extreme ownership it's about

00:11:08.700 leadership and you co-authored it with leif and you highlight the principles you taught other seal

00:11:13.740 officers but also what you've been teaching civilian executives in the business world um and yeah

00:11:20.460 really one of the best books on leadership i've read the first chapter is on extreme

00:11:24.780 ownership the title of your book can you explain what extreme ownership is and why a leader needs

00:11:30.540 to develop it well you know we we named the book extreme ownership because we really found that when

00:11:37.580 we looked at not only at leaders but at teams that were the most successful we found that the ones

00:11:43.740 that had this attitude of extreme ownership were the ones that did the best and it's definitely an

00:11:48.300 attitude that i had it's definitely an attitude that our task unit had which is we're not going

00:11:52.940 to make excuses we're not going to cast blame on anybody else we're going to take responsibility

00:11:58.380 and and ownership of everything that's happening in our world and so that's what extreme ownership

00:12:03.100 is i'm not going to blame anybody i'm going to take ownership and i'm going to make things right

00:12:06.620 with all the assets that i have and when you do that instead of saying oh well it wasn't my fault it

00:12:13.820 was because we didn't get the support that we needed or it's because i didn't have the assets

00:12:17.980 that i needed or it's because i didn't get the training that i needed or it's because the enemy

00:12:21.740 did something i didn't expect or i didn't have the right people in place all those excuses that you

00:12:26.300 make no just throw those all out the window take ownership and make things happen the way they're

00:12:31.180 supposed to happen yeah and so i mean are there any examples from your uh career as a seal where you

00:12:36.060 saw extreme ownership in action by yourself or maybe some other platoon leader you had well the most

00:12:40.940 glaring example is the one that i talk about in the book and that's really i think the best example

00:12:46.140 i could possibly come up with and that's why i used it in the book which was where we were on a

00:12:51.260 operation a very complex operation in a in a very bad neighborhood a enemy controlled neighborhood in

00:12:59.180 southeast ramadi and a lot of bad things happened and to make a long story short there was what's called

00:13:07.500 a blue on blue or a fratricide which is when friendly forces kill other friendly forces which

00:13:13.020 as you can imagine is the absolute worst possible thing that can happen in war and it was it was one

00:13:18.220 of my seals that actually shot and killed a friendly iraqi soldier and then there were several more wounded

00:13:25.180 one of my seals were wounded there was army and marine corps involved in this it was a very bad scenario

00:13:31.100 and there were a lot of things that had happened a lot of mistakes that were made that led up to this

00:13:35.340 and as you can imagine when something like this happens it's it's number one it's devastating for

00:13:40.940 morale and it's it's a very serious problem and so when it occurred you know i immediately or or

00:13:49.020 i was out in the field for the rest of the day it happened in the early morning and the rest of the

00:13:53.660 day i went through conducting further operations when i got back we got shut down from operations by my

00:13:59.100 commanding officer and he said hey shut down operations i'm coming out with the investigating officer to

00:14:04.140 see what happened put together a brief so you can tell me what went wrong and and we can settle it

00:14:11.820 and so this is you know i'm basically thinking okay this makes sense that they're going to come out and

00:14:16.780 fire someone for for this happening right someone you know there's a a friendly soldier's been killed

00:14:22.220 uh another seal's been wounded and all other other friendly soldiers have been wounded somebody's got

00:14:28.060 somebody's got to pay for this for lack of a better word and you know to my mind that was just

00:14:33.740 someone's going to get fired so i started putting together the brief and you know listed all the

00:14:39.100 mistakes that had been made and mapped it out and there were people that moved to the wrong position

00:14:43.100 and people that didn't pass radio calls and iraqi soldiers that went where they weren't supposed to

00:14:47.100 go and so there was a whole litany of problems that had occurred and when we got in the you know

00:14:52.700 just as we were getting ready to debrief finally the commanding officer and the investigating officer

00:14:56.300 show up and they're eating lunch and i'm literally finishing up the brief and i still just

00:15:00.460 couldn't come to grips with who was actually to blame in this situation and as i sat there thinking

00:15:06.860 about it it hit me like a bolt of lightning that i needed to treat this like i treated everything else

00:15:12.620 in my career which is i am the person that's ultimately responsible for what happens on the

00:15:17.100 battlefield so we went into the debriefing room and uh as i you know had my whole platoon in there had the

00:15:23.100 investigating officer the commanding officer the the command master chief and i mean i got the guy that's

00:15:27.900 wounded who'd been shot in the face in the back of the room with his face bandaged up and you know i

00:15:33.900 said all right whose fault was this and you know i had one guy raise his hand and say it was my fault

00:15:38.700 i didn't pass the coordinates on the radio and i said no it wasn't your fault and then it was another

00:15:42.940 guy raised his hand he said you know i i didn't positively identify the person that i shot and i should

00:15:47.420 have it's my fault and i said no it wasn't your fault and this went on a couple more guys and finally i

00:15:51.420 said listen this wasn't your fault this wasn't your fault this wasn't your fault there's only one

00:15:55.900 person to blame for this and that's me i'm the commander and i'm responsible for everything

00:16:00.860 that happens out on the battlefield and i will tell you this we will make sure that this never

00:16:05.980 happens again and that ownership of course this this could have been you know my the end of my career

00:16:13.740 this could have been you know my commanding officer said yep okay it's your fault you're fired

00:16:18.780 but instead he realized that i was a guy that was going to take responsibility for what was happening

00:16:23.420 and there was plenty of other people to blame i mean there's plenty of other mistakes to to that

00:16:27.340 were made but i took ownership of their mistakes as well and i don't say just that with you know

00:16:33.420 with lip service i i truly meant you know the guy that didn't pass communications early enough

00:16:39.180 that's my fault i didn't make it clear to him that it was important that he passed the

00:16:42.460 communications of what their location was before they moved there or what location they were going to

00:16:46.860 before they got there i didn't make that clear enough that's my fault and i went right on down

00:16:51.020 the line with that belief and so taking that ownership it meant that not only was i trying

00:16:57.260 to solve the problem but now all these guys that work for me that all felt like hey they had

00:17:02.540 contributed to the problem but they took ownership of their problems and we all took ownership of the

00:17:06.540 problems the various problems the various mistakes that have been made and we made sure that they never

00:17:10.460 happened again but that attitude when you have it it is it is what turns a team into into a high

00:17:18.940 performing a high performing winning team because like i said if i'm blaming everybody else well then

00:17:24.060 they're blaming other people too and if everyone's blaming each other for the things that go wrong

00:17:28.460 then who's taking responsibility for the problems and that the answer is nobody and if no one's taking

00:17:32.940 responsibility for the problems then who's going to solve the problems the answer is nobody whereas if

00:17:37.580 i'm taking ownership and i say to you i say hey brett this was my fault that i didn't make this clear to

00:17:42.940 you you're going to say you know what jocko actually i should have asked the question because i'm

00:17:47.660 responsible when we get out there for that piece of the mission i should have asked the question and

00:17:50.700 made sure it was clear so now you're trying to solve the problem i'm trying to solve the problem

00:17:53.900 and now the problem gets solved and when you end up with a whole team like that that's when you get

00:17:58.220 end up with a team that's going to win every time but it starts with the leader like it's a trickle

00:18:02.700 down effect absolutely yeah so i mean that's really hard to do that i mean what what keeps managers

00:18:09.260 from embracing extreme motorship i mean how do you check your ego because like you said you could

00:18:13.900 have kept you know shifted the blame to someone else to save your career your reputation how do

00:18:18.780 you overcome that fear well like you said i mean it's it's all ego that's the main reason why someone

00:18:24.780 won't say hey this problem in this mission or this situation this is my fault i'm the leader it's my

00:18:33.740 fault if something goes wrong i mean think about if my machine gunner makes a mistake and starts

00:18:38.300 shooting in the wrong direction sure i can blame it on him but why is he doing that he's doing it

00:18:43.500 because i didn't make it clear what direction you're supposed to make shoot i didn't make it clear

00:18:47.500 what his field of fire was i didn't make it clear where his where the limits of his field of fire

00:18:52.620 were so if i failed on all those points it's actually my fault but if all i do is blame and blame and

00:18:59.740 blame like i said no one's going to take ownership for the problems and they're not going to get solved

00:19:04.220 so you got to get rid of your ego and take the heat like a leader does you know you have to maintain

00:19:10.860 your integrity as a leader and the other piece of this is sometimes people feel you know that if i

00:19:18.620 if i take the blame for it if i say hey brett this was my fault you're going to say that's right jocko

00:19:23.180 it was your fault when the reality is that doesn't happen i mean you might get a small percentage of

00:19:27.820 people that that are just basically sociopaths that don't take the blame for anything but most people

00:19:34.540 that are part of a team are going to look at you and say hey you know what no it wasn't your fault it

00:19:38.860 was my fault i could have stepped up i could have done a better job so it you got to have the

00:19:44.220 confidence in yourself from a leadership perspective that that when you step up and take ownership of

00:19:49.580 something people are going to say you know what i respect what he's saying i respect that he's that

00:19:54.540 he's admitting that it was a mistake and i'm going to help him and i'm going to help the team to do

00:19:58.380 better so another part of extreme ownership um i think there's a lot i think it's hard for a lot of

00:20:03.580 managers maybe your experience as an officer and the seals can provide some insights on how to deal with

00:20:08.780 this so let's say you take extreme ownership and you your team suffering they're they're performing

00:20:13.740 not well and you coach them you communicate better you try to solve the problem but there's still

00:20:19.740 members on your team who aren't up to snuff and it's causing the whole team to suffer and you come

00:20:26.060 to that decision like you have to let that person go right you've you've done all you could but they're

00:20:30.620 still not performing the way they need to be um i mean that's that's a scary thing for a lot of

00:20:36.780 managers to say okay i got to fire this individual before the good of the team how do you overcome

00:20:42.780 that fear that a lot of managers might have well first of all you sort of said it when you said

00:20:49.500 you've done everything you can so most of the times when i'm working with executives and it comes time to

00:20:54.460 start firing people one of the reasons that they don't feel comfortable with it is because they

00:20:59.900 realize that they themselves as a leader have failed to invest in that person coach them mentor them get

00:21:07.580 them up to speed lay out clearly what the expectations are explain to them what will happen if they don't

00:21:14.060 meet those expectations so if you're my employee and it's time for me to fire you you should you should

00:21:21.340 know 100 that it's coming you should realize that you failed you should actually step up to me and say

00:21:26.380 hey jocko i realized that i let you down i'm sorry and i know that you're gonna have to let me go

00:21:30.700 that's what you want now the bottom line you're not going to feel like that every time and then you have

00:21:36.220 to get to a point where you realize that loyalty to the team trumps loyalty to an individual and if you

00:21:44.780 continue to keep low performers on your team that are actually dragging the team down you're you're you're

00:21:53.820 failing the whole team and eventually the whole team is going to fail so yes you have to step up

00:21:59.420 you have to learn how to overcome that that loyalty that you have to your individuals

00:22:06.860 has got to be overcome by loyalty to the team and you got to take care of the team as a whole yeah

00:22:10.460 that's probably something you had to deal with a lot as an officer of a of the seal and the seals

00:22:15.260 yeah when we had guys which i had multiple guys throughout my career that wouldn't be able to

00:22:22.140 perform their duties as a seal then i'd let them go now this doesn't mean and i want people to i

00:22:27.900 don't want to perpetuate the stereotype that everybody that's in the military and every seal is

00:22:33.420 this you know high speed terminator robot that just is a a machine that will do whatever you tell it

00:22:41.580 because that's not the case and you end up with people in your it's a bell curve just like any other

00:22:46.540 organization and so you got some guys that are on the low end now there's a difference between a guy

00:22:50.780 that's on the low end and a guy that's going to put the team at risk so when you got a guy at the

00:22:55.100 low low end maybe you have to put them in a specific job that they can handle or maybe you have to have

00:23:00.460 them give them duties that are things that are within their capabilities they're not going to step up and

00:23:05.260 do some of the more challenging tasks but there's jobs for them even in the seal teams we have jobs that

00:23:09.500 can be done by a you know a guy that might not be ready for harder challenges yet i mean that's your job

00:23:15.100 as a leader is to make everybody get the best you can out of every single person but you have to be

00:23:20.620 careful that that idea of taking care of my people and making sure i get the best out of them doesn't

00:23:25.820 cross over into a point where you're keeping a guy along keeping a guy there that doesn't belong

00:23:30.300 yeah you had a great example in the the book about a ceo had a friend that he was just really loyal to

00:23:36.700 him and he finally had to let him go and even his friend knew it was coming like you just said

00:23:41.020 like you usually when you're about to get fired you know it's about to happen because you knew the

00:23:45.180 expectations that were set for you yes and it went off went off without a hitch yeah and in and in

00:23:51.100 fact in that case they actually moved the guy to uh they dis they discontinued the the the division

00:23:58.380 that he was in and moved him into another division where he could actually contribute to the company

00:24:03.900 but yeah he the the boss you know if he did if he did what he wanted to do for the individual

00:24:08.860 relationship he would have kept him around but he realized that they were they were bleeding money

00:24:13.260 and he couldn't do that yeah so there's a principle you talk about in the book throughout the book

00:24:17.660 um from military leadership called commander's intent uh what is that is like is that a mission

00:24:23.340 statement or is it something else it's similar to a mission statement but really the highlight of

00:24:31.180 commander's intent is to make sure that the troops know why they're doing what they're doing

00:24:38.060 what is the end state that they're going for what is the ultimate goal that they're trying for

00:24:43.500 and what's so important about that is that is what allows the frontline leaders to make decisions

00:24:49.660 on the specific situations that they might be in and if they don't have that if they don't understand

00:24:56.380 why if they don't understand what direction they're supposed to be heading and what the end state is supposed

00:25:01.660 to look like they can't make any adjustments out there on the battlefield and so what do they have to do

00:25:06.300 they have to call you as the boss and say hey there's been this thing that i wasn't expecting

00:25:10.540 what should i do now and now we've got lag and we've got slow reaction time and that's when the

00:25:15.740 enemy will get ahead of you so commanders attend is what allows what you call in the book decentralized

00:25:20.220 command yeah it's the most critical piece of decentralized command is to is to make sure that

00:25:25.980 people understand why they're doing what they're doing and one of the examples that i use all the time

00:25:30.060 a very simple example is if you and i were going on a mission and i said hey brett once we get this

00:25:37.820 target secure and we've got the building under control i want you to go to the rooftop and set

00:25:41.820 security and you say okay jocko got it and then we go on the mission we take down the building we got

00:25:48.300 the target secure you take your team up to the rooftop to set security well when you get up there

00:25:53.420 you're expecting there to be some some cover and concealment for your guys but it turns out that

00:25:58.540 this roof is completely flat there's nowhere for you to hide and you're just exposed up there

00:26:03.660 so what do you do well i told you to go up there and set security so you sit there and you got your

00:26:08.460 team up there and you're all exposed to enemy fire and the enemy can see you very clearly it's a horrible

00:26:12.540 situation so now if we rewind that to back to the planning phase and i say hey brett once we get the

00:26:20.780 target secure i want you to go to the rooftop and set security and the reason why i want you to do

00:26:27.100 that is i want you to make sure that there's no there's no enemy coming down this road from the

00:26:31.900 north and you say okay got it jocko now same thing happens we go on the mission you take we take down

00:26:38.460 the building the building secure you go to the rooftop there's nowhere for you to hide on the

00:26:42.220 rooftop nowhere for your team to get cover and concealment on the rooftop you say hey guys come

00:26:47.180 with me you bring them down one floor you bring them to this room that you saw on the way up that

00:26:52.780 has north facing windows you open up the windows you put your machine gunners in place you call me

00:26:57.340 up on the radio and you say hey jocko went to the rooftop there was no cover up there we moved down to

00:27:02.220 the third floor i've got eyes on the road it's covered we're good to go the only reason were you

00:27:09.980 able to make that decision is because you understand understood the intent of what your mission was

00:27:15.580 and so it's a very simple way of explaining it but that's what commander's intent is and that's why

00:27:20.460 commander's intent is the critical component of decentralized command and control and what makes

00:27:25.980 what messes up executives and trying to come up with commander's intent or explaining commander's

00:27:32.220 intent well oftentimes they don't explain it at all oftentimes and it happens in the military and

00:27:37.020 happens in the civilian world people are just telling people what to do and i tell you what to do it only

00:27:43.660 works until what you do has to change a little bit and of course in business in life in combat

00:27:50.060 the the scenario that you plan for is not going to unfold the way you expect i mean there are going

00:27:54.860 to be variables that you aren't going to expect that are going to be different what the plan was

00:27:59.500 and the only way that you can get people to lead in those situations is if they know what the end

00:28:04.380 state is they know what the goal is they know what the commander's intent is that's why it's so

00:28:07.980 critical and so important but i imagine a lot of executives might think oh it's a waste of time

00:28:11.740 right like i had to explain like why they should know why right they i think there's a lot of

00:28:14.940 assuming going on uh well obviously that's that's not a very good idea and one thing that we learned

00:28:22.300 a pretty tough lesson in ramadi was when we when we looked at how much and when we talked to the

00:28:28.700 troops especially even when we got back when we realized how little our own guys understood

00:28:36.940 what had been happening on a strategic level while we were in ramadi it was it was it we we realized we

00:28:43.180 had let them down and that there were often times where we weren't explaining the why good enough to

00:28:48.540 them now we got it to them for maybe a specific mission but they didn't really understand the impact

00:28:53.420 of what we were doing overall and that made it tough you know to go on mission after mission after

00:28:58.060 mission when you know your friends you're under a constant threat of getting wounded or killed and

00:29:02.380 you got your friends getting wounded and killed and you're not 100 sure of the why that's really

00:29:08.140 challenging luckily i just had some some brave brave souls with me that went to the went into the fray

00:29:14.860 day day after day so you know jock of war is extremely complex lots of things going on at the

00:29:20.300 same time unpredictability and you know business to an extent too is also very complex you've got

00:29:26.620 you have different organizations working on the same project working on tasks in parallel

00:29:32.700 and this adds in a lot of uncertainty into the mix as a leader who's expected to make decisive

00:29:39.420 decisions right how do you deal with the uncertainty that exists out there well for one thing i mean

00:29:48.060 obviously you're never going to know everything that is not going to happen you're not going to have

00:29:52.780 all the intelligence that you need and even if you had every ounce of intelligence that you needed

00:29:57.340 there's still variables that no one can predict what the market is going to do what the enemy is going

00:30:02.220 to do what the competitors are going to do what the weather is going to do so with all these variables

00:30:08.140 that you have you have first of all you have to know how to detach from the situation you can't

00:30:12.140 get all emotional you can't get wound up or spun up about what's happening or things that aren't going

00:30:18.860 the way you expect you have to detach from those emotions and be able to step back and look at the broader

00:30:24.140 picture and then obviously uh you know you've got to make a decision now there's a great a great

00:30:33.660 technique and i don't know if you've ever heard of this it's called the ooda loop i don't even think

00:30:36.940 we put it in the book but it's okay i've written about the ooda loop in extent i yeah i love john

00:30:41.580 boyd yeah so john boyd famous air force uh pilot who is pretty much respected and known as the best

00:30:50.780 pilot ever in in modern air force so he he came up with this thing the ooda loop observe orient decide

00:30:59.820 and act and really that's what you need to do when things are complex and things are unfolding in

00:31:05.340 front of you and i always i always say that you know there's there's very few decisions that you

00:31:11.100 need to make a hundred percent at the moment of course they do exist and decisions like that you

00:31:16.620 know what you have to do you have to look at what you have you have to make a decision you have to go

00:31:20.380 that that's that's it but most decisions can be slowed down somewhat you can make it an iterative

00:31:28.860 decision that's smaller to see how it affects the situation and how the situation continues to

00:31:34.700 unfold so you observe what's happening you orient yourself to it you decide what you're going to do

00:31:38.860 you act but then you reboot and you do it again observe how that that worked observe how that

00:31:43.580 happened and then decide what you're going to do and then act again so try and chunk those decisions

00:31:49.660 down a little bit what can you do for instance um we need to attack this building okay do i need to

00:31:57.340 attack the building a hundred percent right now maybe i start off by moving troops in vicinity of

00:32:03.900 the building then maybe i get snipers to move a little bit closer and get eyes on then maybe i stage

00:32:10.220 the assault force in a position where they can assault quickly now i've got everything set but i still

00:32:15.980 haven't pulled the trigger now i can say okay now we've observed the person that we're we're actually

00:32:21.660 looking for in the target building now i can pull the trigger and we can execute so when when i got

00:32:27.340 asked 20 hours ago hey or or i had to make a decision to hit the target i didn't really have to make the

00:32:33.740 decision there what i did do was put my forces in the correct position get more intelligence get stage

00:32:41.180 my people in the right spot let them understand the situation better so that way when the with the

00:32:46.060 actual time for the decision comes up i can pull the trigger and go or by the way we could have

00:32:51.180 observed that place for 48 hours we never see the person that we're actually looking for let the guys

00:32:56.380 fade away we come back and it's no problem we haven't burned the target so i think you sometimes

00:33:01.980 have to gradiate and modulate your decision making process uh to just slow it down a little bit and see

00:33:08.220 what you can do to stage and be ready for an uh an expected or unknown outcome like i said there

00:33:15.900 are times where you just have to make a decision you know oh if we're getting attacked right now

00:33:20.700 we're gonna flank them there my decision's been made punch right and flank them done that's that's

00:33:26.060 very easy um so jock i think a lot of people have this idea of navy seals being the sort of

00:33:32.460 i don't know work off the fly the renegades etc etc but one thing i was surprised in the book

00:33:37.900 is the amount of planning that goes on for these missions uh can you talk about sort of the

00:33:43.820 checklist you went through as an officer when you planned even some of the simplest of missions

00:33:49.020 uh what sort of planning did you do to get ready for that well we absolutely do all the planning

00:33:56.460 that we possibly can and what's interesting is if you ask me how long it takes to plan and how or

00:34:02.540 if you ask me how much time we spent planning there's some missions that we planned for 15 minutes

00:34:07.340 because as i just as we just talked about sometime you get a time sensitive target and you just don't

00:34:12.300 have time to do detailed planning other missions we plan for weeks because we find out where the

00:34:17.820 target is we find out what the mission is and so we have all this time to plan and prepare so we

00:34:24.460 absolutely would in those time period whether it was 15 minutes or 15 days we would still do our best

00:34:31.980 to go through a standard checklist of what we had to assess the intelligence we had to gather the questions

00:34:39.900 that we had then how we were going to execute the mission phase by phase and we could do this

00:34:44.940 in a very rapid manner or we could do it in a very deliberate and slow manner and we basically used one

00:34:50.620 of the oldest uh planning methodologies in in the military which is the smiak and it's an acronym that

00:34:57.820 stands for situation mission enemy admin logistics and command and signal it just kind of covers the

00:35:02.780 the basis of of what you're doing and sorry i said i meant execution but it just kind of covers the

00:35:09.500 what you're going to do you know who you're facing what you're trying to take care of what assets you

00:35:14.780 have who's going to support you how you're going to communicate to each other who's in charge of the

00:35:19.740 various aspects it's a very simple checklist and when we work with when we work with civilian companies

00:35:24.700 what we do is we don't impose this checklist on them but we use it as a baseline for them

00:35:31.180 to formulate how they're going to do their repetitive planning activities for instance you

00:35:36.540 know we have we'll have a let's say a retail company that's going to be putting retail outlets

00:35:44.460 in various places and they're expanding their market okay let's look at how we're going to do that

00:35:48.780 planning you know first you have to identify a location you have to you have to check the demographics

00:35:53.420 of the location we so we go through this whole thing then we have to figure out what the leases

00:35:57.020 are going to be so they come up with their own checklist but once they've done that now when

00:36:01.180 they move and they do multiple areas they've got a baseline to go off of and they don't miss steps

00:36:07.340 and that's the main thing that we do with our checklists it's we put them in place so that we don't

00:36:12.300 miss steps you know eisenhower has that phrase like planning plans are useless but planning is

00:36:17.980 everything i guess is that right that idea that once you meet the enemy like the plans oftentimes

00:36:23.900 go out the door but you know what what is the benefit of planning even if you don't end up

00:36:27.580 following the plan to the t when you actually have contact with the enemy well first of all we would

00:36:33.900 operate much of our plan would be in the form of standard operating procedures so we would have

00:36:40.220 certain standard operating procedures and all we would have to do is link together various standard

00:36:45.260 operating procedures and then there is our plan now what's beautiful about standard operating

00:36:50.060 procedures is if if something that you didn't expect happens you can just quickly alter and go

00:36:55.260 to a different standard operating procedure and then and then adapt from there so the the planning

00:37:02.060 and the rehearsal it allows you to know what you're planning to do it gives you a line to deviate from

00:37:08.220 it gives you an organizational structure and one thing i would always say is make your

00:37:12.860 organizational structure as flexible as possible and that way when you get out on the battlefield

00:37:18.140 and you run into something that you don't expect you can very quickly flex but again it gives you a

00:37:22.540 baseline to deviate from which is very important if you go out there with no starting point with no

00:37:27.500 datum from which to begin you're going to be in a world of hurt once the complexities hit you

00:37:32.060 right i guess that's like the orient phase of the oodle loop you're orienting yourself

00:37:35.740 and allows you to make decisions on the fly afterwards yes right uh so you you have this

00:37:42.540 idea about leading down the chain of command which i think we all understand it's like the hierarchy

00:37:46.700 you do what the boss says but then you say that a leader needs to know how to lead up the chain of

00:37:51.980 command what do you mean by that well first of all that the idea of extreme ownership which i

00:37:58.940 already discussed about how i was taking the blame for mistakes that my guys made and if my machine gunner

00:38:05.660 shot the wrong way it was my fault well it goes the same way up the chain of command so in other

00:38:10.780 words if my boss isn't giving me the support that i need he's not giving me the training that i need

00:38:15.420 he's not giving me the equipment that i need most people just want to blame their boss i don't when

00:38:20.300 that happens i blame myself that means i didn't educate my boss it means i didn't influence my boss

00:38:26.860 it means that i didn't explain to him in a method that he could clearly understand what it was that i needed

00:38:34.140 it and so because you've got to remember that my boss and me in combat or in business we're going to

00:38:40.540 have the same ultimate goal is going to be aligned the same ultimate goal is going to be aligned so

00:38:45.980 you know in war we're going to kill bad guys and and win the war that's the goal and in business you

00:38:50.860 know we're going to we're going to be profitable we're going to have good customer service and we're

00:38:56.220 going to be profitable whatever those goals might be they're going to be aligned and so if i present

00:39:00.540 something to my boss that's going to help us kill bad guys and win the war well then why would my

00:39:05.980 boss not give it to me the only reason he wouldn't give it to me is if i didn't explain it to him well

00:39:10.780 enough or he didn't i didn't make it clear or i didn't jump through the little bureaucratic hoops

00:39:16.380 that i'm supposed to jump through in order to get what i need but for me just to say oh the boss didn't

00:39:20.700 give it to us that's why we failed the mission is wrong now the caveat is of course this doesn't mean

00:39:25.580 that you're always going to get what you want from the boss because you know if i asked my boss for

00:39:30.700 a good example and this this would happen on a fairly regular basis if i say hey boss i need

00:39:37.100 air support for tonight i need a dedicated multiple aircraft overhead to help us out if we get in trouble

00:39:44.220 now that's going to help us kill bad guys and win the war my boss says you can't have it i say well

00:39:50.140 wait a second boss why can't i have it he says here's what's going on you guys are going to be very

00:39:54.860 close to your base tonight i got two other platoons they're going out far away from their base they're

00:39:59.740 actually going into worse areas i'm giving them the aircraft that we had because we have limited

00:40:03.980 limited assets okay now can i argue with that no that actually makes sense and also now when my guys

00:40:10.940 when i go to my guys and i say hey listen guys we have no air support for tonight i asked the boss they

00:40:17.180 couldn't give it to us here's why there's other platoons that are going out into a worse area further

00:40:21.420 away from base they're getting the air support now my guys understand why the boss is making

00:40:26.140 this decision because if all of all i tell my guys is hey we're not getting air support tonight

00:40:30.940 what is what do the troopers think the troops say well they don't understand they're not helping us

00:40:36.860 we're not getting the support that we need the boss doesn't get it and that that starts to formulate

00:40:42.940 a bad team a team that doesn't believe that we're all working together to accomplish the mission

00:40:49.420 so when you ask your boss why and you have that explanation for your troops then your guys go

00:40:55.260 okay got it i didn't realize there was other missions going on tonight that needed the air

00:40:58.300 support more than us we'll deal with it so there's a huge part that that role plays of leading up the

00:41:05.340 chain of command and making sure that you're taking ownership of your boss as well as your troops

00:41:12.620 the whole idea of you know going up the chain of command um was awesome because i think a lot of

00:41:17.740 times particularly in the business world people forget that their boss is on the same side as them

00:41:23.420 and they think if their boss isn't cooperating with him like well they just he doesn't care

00:41:27.100 he doesn't care about the the objectives we're trying to fulfill it's like no he cares he's on

00:41:32.060 the same team as you like you said you just need to do a better job take ownership of it

00:41:36.860 and explain to him why you actually need this thing that's it that's exactly it

00:41:42.460 um so you have this section on discipline and you have this phrase discipline equals freedom

00:41:51.020 um and for a lot of people that's like no discipline is like you have to do stuff you

00:41:54.780 don't want to do means you have to wake up early when you don't want to it means exercising when you

00:42:01.100 don't want to and you'd rather just sit around and watch tv so how does discipline equal freedom

00:42:07.180 let's just start with the example that you just gave uh you have to wake up early even though you

00:42:11.580 don't want to well people want to have more free time right they want to have the freedom of time

00:42:18.220 to do what they want well how are you going to get more free time the answer is very simple you have

00:42:24.620 to have discipline you have to have a discipline time management schedule you have to have the

00:42:29.260 discipline to get up and get out of bed in the morning you gain yourself i tell you what too

00:42:34.780 morning hours are worth extra they're like longer than regular hours that are during the day because

00:42:40.620 no one's bothering you no one's getting in your way no one's talking to you you just do what you

00:42:46.220 need to do so when you get up very early in the morning you can accomplish a lot more and that

00:42:51.660 actually that discipline of waking up early actually gives you more freedom in the rest of the day and

00:42:57.420 the rest of the week because you get more done and that is a perfect example of how discipline

00:43:02.940 equals freedom same thing with working out you know we want to be healthy we want to be free from

00:43:08.940 being sick and and coming down with illnesses and we want to be free from injury well how do you

00:43:14.780 maintain health you have to have the discipline to eat right you have to have the discipline to work

00:43:18.540 out so you stay flexible you stay strong you stay healthy and so those are two really easy

00:43:25.340 examples of how discipline equals freedom so is this yeah waking up early i see this on instagram

00:43:30.700 all the time people showing pictures of their watches at 4 30 in the morning i think i think

00:43:35.580 you're responsible for this i i think i think i might be up before the enemy is that you wake up at

00:43:41.980 4 30 in the morning yes that's nuts and so what do you do with uh and with all your free time that

00:43:47.500 you have in the morning i wake up i have a great workout i do a little bit of work in the morning

00:43:53.100 normally work that takes a certain type of uh thought process i do some of that work in the

00:43:58.540 morning before the world starts and you know by the time the the family's awake i'm i'm way ahead

00:44:08.700 what time do you go to bed at night i go to bed around 11 11 to 4 30 how many hours of sleep that's

00:44:14.700 like five i usually try for five and a half hours five and a half hours is it works for me and i know

00:44:19.820 that doesn't work for everybody and some people need more sleep some people need less sleep and

00:44:23.420 you know i always like to point out that that everyone's all excited because i'm getting up at

00:44:27.500 4 30 but there's there's people that are getting up or there's single moms out there that are working

00:44:33.100 two jobs that are getting up at three o'clock in the morning to go to the diner to open it up and

00:44:38.540 start waiting tables i mean this is just i'm just a guy that that wakes up early and i actually have

00:44:43.980 the luxury of waking up early you know a lot of people aren't in that situation but there's also

00:44:47.980 people that could be waking up early and doing a lot more than they're doing and then instead

00:44:53.740 unfortunately they they let the laziness win out they hit that snooze button and they end up

00:44:59.500 not doing what they should be doing um i mean how do you develop this i can see how it'd be

00:45:05.100 beneficial for a leader to develop self-discipline in his life how do you as a leader help create a

00:45:10.940 culture of discipline in your organization well it comes with the same mindset first of all be

00:45:17.660 disciplined yourself there's nothing sadder than a a boss that you know is good is encouraging people

00:45:24.620 to come in early and they're not showing up early themselves uh but but on top of that you know this

00:45:29.420 idea of standard operating procedures of putting procedures in place of having process in place that

00:45:35.660 they can follow now again as you said early this might make people think that we're going to be more

00:45:42.620 restricted as a team because we've got these standard operating procedures in place that

00:45:47.420 we're going to be constrained by them but actually the opposite is true and if you would see my seal

00:45:54.220 platoons or my seal task units we were very highly disciplined and had standard operating procedures for

00:45:59.340 everything for the way we got into vehicles the way we got out of vehicles the way we got into

00:46:04.380 buildings the way we got out of buildings the way we the way we talked on the radio we had a

00:46:08.060 standard operating procedure for everything and this didn't make us more constrained it gave us

00:46:13.740 all kinds of freedom because we were so disciplined that if i needed a building taken down i could look

00:46:19.740 at you if you were my task unit brett and i'd say brett go take down that building over there and you

00:46:23.580 would just go hit it you didn't have to tell me how you were going to do it you didn't have to tell me

00:46:27.260 who you were going to take with you you didn't have to tell me what methodology you were going to use

00:46:30.940 you'd have to tell me what you were going to do if you got into a firefight you knew all those things

00:46:35.580 and i knew all those things and your troops knew all those things so we had complete freedom to

00:46:41.580 execute execute execute and i could send you in that building you in another building you in another

00:46:46.300 building and it and we could do it very quickly and rapidly because we were highly disciplined so

00:46:51.980 the discipline that we had as an organization actually gives you more freedom this is the paradox

00:46:57.020 of discipline indeed it is gives you more freedom it's all right one of those great paradoxes along

00:47:02.060 with zeno's paradox all right jaco besides um the work you're doing with your business consulting

00:47:08.460 the gym you also got a podcast a new one out it's been out how long has the podcast been out

00:47:13.580 the first one came out uh just before christmas december 2015 but it's super popular it's been

00:47:21.020 well receiving what kind of topics are you hitting on on the podcast and like why did you decide to start

00:47:26.380 a podcast well i i've always been into even pre-podcast i when i was a kid i listened to radio

00:47:34.780 shows and and i was always like that media medium of people just voices coming into your brain i always

00:47:43.900 thought that that was awesome and so when podcasts came out i started listening to podcasts and i was

00:47:50.460 got really into you know a few podcasts that i got really into and then as the book was getting ready

00:47:56.140 to come out i had a friend of a friend who was friends with tim ferris and we got linked up and

00:48:05.660 i ended up going on tim's podcast and when i got when we got done and he pressed stop on the recorder

00:48:11.820 he said you know you need to have your own podcast and i didn't you know i i thought it sounded great

00:48:17.740 but uh the book was about to be released when the book came out that really went pretty richter and so

00:48:22.940 we had to deal with all that and then i did ended up doing another podcast with joe rogan who i kind

00:48:27.820 of knew through the years from being at ufcs and cornering fighters so i i'd seen him around for many

00:48:33.420 years but we never were you know we we would recognize each other but wouldn't be we weren't

00:48:38.700 considered friends or anything but he he liked the tim ferris podcast that i did so i went on his podcast

00:48:44.620 really cool experience and in the middle of that podcast he just said you need to have your own

00:48:49.340 podcast and at the end he said he called me out and said are you gonna do it and i said yeah i'll do

00:48:52.860 it and so then once i said that the the twitter a bunch of people on twitter and social media hit me

00:48:58.700 up and said yeah do a podcast so i had a buddy who knew how to do podcasts from who's a buddy from

00:49:05.260 jujitsu so i asked him hey can we do a podcast and he said yeah that's echo charles the co-host of

00:49:10.220 the podcast and we recorded a podcast and yeah like you said i mean i was uh it was really cool how

00:49:17.260 well it was received and and how much feedback we're getting on it and it's taught as far as what

00:49:22.620 we we talk about i mean it's about it's about leadership it's about fighting it's about business

00:49:29.420 it's about death it's about war it's about good and evil and light and dark and i mean really i think

00:49:37.100 what it's about is it's about life well jaco this has been a great conversation thank you so much for

00:49:41.580 your time it's been a pleasure get after it my guest today was jaco wilnick he's the author of the

00:49:46.540 book extreme ownership and you can find that on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere and really

00:49:50.860 if you're a leader or in a position of leadership go check it out one of the best books on leadership

00:49:54.460 i've come across and also make sure to check out his podcast the jaco podcast just search for it's

00:49:59.260 on itunes and stitcher wherever else you can listen to a podcast a lot of great insights about leadership

00:50:03.580 business fitness discipline life even combat you'll get insights there and also make sure to check out

00:50:10.380 the show notes after you listen to the show at aom.is slash jaco where you'll find links to resources

00:50:16.700 and stuff we mentioned throughout the show

00:50:18.540 well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice

00:50:33.860 make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com and if you enjoy

00:50:37.840 this show and have gotten something out of it i'd really appreciate it if you give us a review on

00:50:40.980 itunes or wherever wherever else you listen to the podcast and help us out a lot as always i

00:50:45.700 appreciate your continued support and until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay manly

00:50:50.420 bye

00:50:57.700 uh

The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

#206： Extreme Ownership - Leadership Lessons from a Navy SEAL

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