The Art of Manliness - #210： Got Grit？

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. So why are some

00:00:14.240 people more successful than others? This is a tough question to answer because it's a mixture

00:00:19.240 of a whole bunch of factors, many of which are out of our control, things like just dumb luck

00:00:23.820 or even our genetics. But there are a few factors that we have a say over and one of them is the

00:00:29.520 ability to persevere even in the face of setbacks. In other words, it's grit. And my guest today has

00:00:35.640 spent her career researching what makes people gritty and how we can develop this trait in

00:00:39.320 ourselves. Her name is Angela Duckworth. She's a professor of psychology at the University of

00:00:43.500 Pennsylvania and the author of the book, Grit, the Power of Passion and Perseverance. And today on

00:00:48.560 the show, Angela and I discuss her research on grit and insights on how we can develop this important

00:00:53.600 trait ourselves based on her visits and interactions with poor inner city students, West Point cadets,

00:00:58.660 and Seattle Seahawks football players. It's a really great show. A lot of actionable steps

00:01:03.680 you can start applying today to become a grittier man. And if you want to check out our show notes

00:01:08.520 after the show for links to resources that we mentioned throughout the show, so you can delve

00:01:12.760 deeper into this topic, visit aom.is slash grit. Angela Duckworth, welcome to the show.

00:01:22.980 Thank you for having me.

00:01:24.180 So I've been a fan of your work for a while now because I've read stuff you've been putting out

00:01:28.420 about grit and the grit scale and your TED talk, of course. And you finally got your book out,

00:01:33.500 Grit, the Power of Passion and Perseverance. Before we talk more about your research into the

00:01:39.340 characteristic of grit, let's define it first. What do you mean by grit or what is grit?

00:01:44.360 I define grit as both perseverance and passion for especially challenging long-term goals.

00:01:54.420 Got you. So it's passion and perseverance. And what got you interested in studying or researching grit?

00:02:02.220 It all started actually being a teacher in the classroom trying to teach kids who were going

00:02:07.120 through puberty, you know, how to solve an algebraic equation. And that normally takes grit,

00:02:13.100 but I think the more important thing was that I was struck by how differently some kids turned out

00:02:20.180 at the end of the year, that, you know, some kids got higher grades than I expected them to,

00:02:24.100 frankly, given how hard it was for them to learn the material. And other kids that I expected to do,

00:02:29.580 you know, straight A work all year ended up doing far from that. And it was largely because they didn't

00:02:35.680 try hard or long enough. I wanted to understand that a little better. I mean, like any well-meaning

00:02:41.320 teacher, I told my kids to work harder and I lectured them about the importance of, you know,

00:02:46.300 their futures. But as a psychologist, I think it's been my mission, my calling to understand why some

00:02:55.360 kids, you know, keep trying and why kids don't, to understand, to unpack the psychology of things

00:03:00.640 like grit.

00:03:01.400 And I think it's interesting. In your book, you talk about that you weren't the first psychologist to

00:03:06.120 research with, you know, something, something similar to grit. You talk about how the U.S. Army,

00:03:11.820 decades before, were trying to figure out why some soldiers did well at West Point or made it all the

00:03:17.860 way through the initial like few weeks of West Point, while others who were on the paper looked

00:03:23.180 extremely talented. They had a lot of potential and they just faltered. So can you tell us a little

00:03:27.340 bit about what the U.S. Army was doing with the sort of grit psychology before you got onto it?

00:03:31.820 Well, what West Point wanted to know was why some of the cadets who had been recruited through this

00:03:38.200 extremely, you know, kind of famously rigorous admissions procedure that requires a congressional

00:03:43.520 nomination and a physical fitness test of, you know, your aptitude in various areas, you know,

00:03:50.180 why is it that all of that, you know, recruiting valedictorians and varsity sports team captains,

00:03:56.180 why is it that so many of these young women and men these days, of course, originally it was just

00:04:01.640 men, you know, why do they drop out? You know, why do they drop out even before they've even begun

00:04:07.400 really seriously? For example, the first summer of training at West Point is called Beast Barracks.

00:04:13.060 Even officially it's called Beast Barracks or sometimes they just call it Beast for short.

00:04:17.360 And in those first two months, you know, many young men and women who everyone would have thought would

00:04:22.260 have been there at the end. They're not there anymore. So for decades, West Point had been

00:04:27.100 trying to figure this out, you know, doing various kinds of tests. And in 2004, when I came along with

00:04:34.600 the Grit Scale, which is just a questionnaire that captures the qualities of passion and perseverance

00:04:40.840 I was talking about, Grit Scale ended up being astoundingly predictive. The higher your grit score,

00:04:46.180 the more likely you are to make it through Beast.

00:04:48.840 And so what you found too was interesting is that, you know, I think before they go in, I mean,

00:04:53.620 people need to understand when people are accepted at West Point, they've gone through

00:04:57.760 this filtering process, this winnowing process. This is the best of the best. It's not just academic.

00:05:02.540 It has to have extracurriculars, fitness. And I guess some of the students are given a rating,

00:05:08.240 right? And they thought that this rating on paper would be the, would predict how well people would do

00:05:14.200 at West Point. But when you applied the Grit Scale or the Grit Test to these students, you found that

00:05:18.500 some of the students who looked good on this other assessment didn't do well, while others who

00:05:23.720 performed on the, like the Grit Scale is what predicted success getting past Beast Week.

00:05:30.200 Exactly. So the whole candidate score, which is the official term that West Point uses for this

00:05:35.780 composite of your, your SAT score, your high school rank, your leadership potential, as evidenced by

00:05:43.160 your extracurricular activities. And finally, your physical aptitude measured by objective tests,

00:05:48.620 like the two mile run, you roll all that into the whole candidate score. I'll tell you what it does

00:05:53.140 predict, but it's true that it doesn't predict finishing Beast. What it does predict is this,

00:05:59.180 if you stay at West Point, if you do hang around for those four years of training, and you graduate,

00:06:04.380 your whole candidate score is a tremendously reliable predictor of how well you'll do.

00:06:09.720 But as Woody Allen, the great philosopher, also, you know, comedian, said, 80% of success in life

00:06:18.300 is showing up. And talent is no guarantee that you'll be the person who continues to show up.

00:06:25.680 Yeah. And you talk about that in your book that I think everyone, we have this appreciation for grit

00:06:30.300 in our heads. Like we tell our kids, you got to work hard, stick to it, do it even if you don't feel

00:06:36.900 like it, because you'll get better at it. But then you argue in our book that when it comes to how we

00:06:41.440 actually behave, like we prefer talent, like we want to go with the natural. Why is it? Why is

00:06:47.160 there this disconnect where we tell, say one thing, but do another?

00:06:51.940 Such a great question. I think there really is a deep ambivalence. You know, I mean, I love naturals

00:06:56.720 too, in a sense, you know, I love to be dazzled. There's something very romantic about the idea of

00:07:02.160 somebody just having a special it factor. And, you know, we've all experienced this. Maybe it

00:07:07.700 depends on what you like to watch. But, you know, if you watch certain athletes perform or certain

00:07:12.900 musicians, and you just, they really do have this otherworldly magical quality, or it seems like we

00:07:18.160 like to think about that about them. On the other hand, you know, we really value effort and hard work

00:07:23.780 and, you know, being resilient and earning your achievements, you know, being a striver.

00:07:29.560 So I think that ambivalence is what is at the heart of experiments. For example, my colleague

00:07:35.020 and my friend, Chia Jung-se, she has run experiments where, you know, you get to see two performers.

00:07:42.600 They're actually equal in performance. I mean, she can even play you the same music, for example,

00:07:47.920 and have you judge, you know, how able they are, how skilled they are, you know, how good of a musician.

00:07:54.300 If she describes that musician to you as somebody who's a natural, who's gifted,

00:07:59.720 then you're more likely to think that person is going to be successful and accomplished later on

00:08:03.720 than if she gives you the same exact music, but she describes that person as a hardworking striver.

00:08:10.020 So she's kind of uncovered a bias, a maybe slightly unconscious bias, that is nevertheless real,

00:08:17.420 that in some ways, it's like when you go dating, and you're like, oh, really, I want to,

00:08:21.160 you know, I want to date the nice guy, but you end up picking the cute one.

00:08:25.400 Right, right, right. And I guess you talk about, you quote Nietzsche. Nietzsche, you know,

00:08:30.280 100 years ago, over 100 years, had that insight that we prefer natural talent, but like, you should

00:08:35.460 ignore that because it's, if you just sort of focus on talent, you do so to your detriment.

00:08:39.680 Yeah, and Nietzsche's insight here comes from a debate that he was having with his, you know,

00:08:47.000 sometime, you know, thought partner, Wagner, right? And they were talking about great accomplishment,

00:08:52.380 and Nietzsche says, you know, speak not to me of genius, and speak not to me of inborn talents.

00:08:57.720 And then he describes what he saw as the reality of excellence, which is, you know, a dedication to

00:09:03.260 your craft, a relentless, a relentless commitment to self-improvement, you know, never being satisfied

00:09:09.980 with where you are. And he said, you know, the patience to work on all the little small things

00:09:14.440 that do end up to being, you know, someone who we can laud now as, you know, a great artist,

00:09:21.300 as a great performer. And, you know, Wagner took the opposite view, which is that, you know,

00:09:25.640 some people are born in a certain way, and some people aren't. But I take the Nietzschean view.

00:09:30.340 And I think Nietzsche was also right when he tried to understand the psychology of like,

00:09:33.700 why do we keep doing this? Like, why do we love to call someone a genius and somebody

00:09:37.700 else not a genius? And he said that, you know, when we don't believe that we are in the same class as

00:09:44.180 someone, when we feel like there are different species in us, then here, we do not have to compete.

00:09:49.480 It lets us off the hook, you know, why try to run really hard when you're never going to be Usain Bolt,

00:09:54.120 you know, like, it's a way of just relaxing into this comfortable identity as somebody who

00:10:01.180 will never achieve the kind of greatness that we really admire, and therefore can accept the status

00:10:07.320 quo. So you argue in the book that there are four factors of developing grit. Can you share what those

00:10:13.540 factors are? Yeah, when I study paragons of grit, you know, people who really exemplify passion and

00:10:20.820 perseverance for something that they deeply care about, I find that they have four psychological

00:10:26.760 assets, as it were. And I think they're each acquirable, really. The first one is they have

00:10:32.740 deep interest. You know, they have figured out how to stay interested in one thing. And to make that one

00:10:38.420 thing new again, right? You know, you do anything for a while, the natural thing is to get bored. But what

00:10:43.780 happens with experts is that they find differences to still attend to, they find nuances. You know,

00:10:49.700 my guess is about you is that, you know, in some ways, you've been interviewing people about similar

00:10:54.180 topics for a long, long time. And yet, I think there's always a newness, like something yet to

00:10:59.200 be discovered, a nuance or a depth that you haven't yet reached. At least that's the way I feel about my

00:11:04.000 work. Second, it's a capacity for practice, a capacity to practice your weaknesses, to get feedback

00:11:10.560 from a coach, from a peer, to really reflect on that feedback and make a refinement and to start

00:11:18.520 all over again in that continuous improvement cycle that I mentioned earlier. Third, a sense of purpose.

00:11:26.060 And in here, I really mean other-centered purpose. You know, a sense of what you do is not just for

00:11:31.300 yourself, but for your team, for your company, for your country, for your family, for the sport. You know,

00:11:38.300 I've not interviewed a paragon of grit who doesn't have a sense that, to some extent, they're on a

00:11:42.960 mission, and the mission involves the well-being of other people. And fourth and finally, there's

00:11:47.640 hope. You know, learning to focus on what you can control and what you can change when things are

00:11:54.060 not going well. Okay, there's a lot to unpack there. But before we get there, you said that these traits

00:11:58.120 are, you can develop these psychological traits. But I'm curious, what does the research say? There's all

00:12:02.600 this research coming out about genetics and even influencing temperament and things like that.

00:12:07.340 Is there any research about whether grit is inborn or if it's a mixture of social upbringing or your

00:12:14.120 environment? There was actually recently a study of twins in the United Kingdom. I think it was

00:12:20.600 2,000 pairs of twins. And these studies basically go like this. You know, you have twins by knowing

00:12:27.500 their relatedness to each other. And, you know, oftentimes, you know, twins raised apart. So they're in

00:12:32.520 different families, twins raised together. You can kind of back into how much is nature and how much

00:12:37.500 is nurture in traits like grit. And in this recent study, there was an estimate for how heritable,

00:12:44.160 how genetic grit is. And the estimates came in as about 20% or so for passion and about 40% or so

00:12:52.660 for perseverance. When I read that study, I actually was a little bit surprised not to find that there was

00:12:58.420 a genetic component to how gritty we might end up being, but actually that the estimates weren't

00:13:03.100 higher than that. Because in many studies, traits like grit end up being more heritable, you know,

00:13:08.280 40, 50% of the variation attributable to our DNA. So the bottom line, I think, is this. Like any other

00:13:17.140 thing that you might care about, you know, how shy you are, how tall you are, how smart you are,

00:13:22.040 whether you're going to get skin cancer, how likely you are to be overweight or not overweight,

00:13:27.960 there is definitely a genetic component, but it's not 100%. It's a fraction of that. So for all of the

00:13:35.340 things that I mentioned, including grit, your experiences and your environment really matter.

00:13:41.300 Okay. So work with what you got, basically.

00:13:44.340 I think so. I mean, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about my genes because I can't do anything

00:13:49.180 about them. Right. Exactly. So let's go back to this idea of this factor of interest. And it seems

00:13:55.420 that this is where passion is connected. If you're interested in something, you're passionate in it.

00:14:00.580 So how do you, we have a lot of young guys who listen to this podcast. They're in their late teens,

00:14:05.140 early twenties, they're trying to figure out what they're going to do with their lives.

00:14:08.000 And you often hear this refrain that you should follow your passion, but how do you figure out what

00:14:13.260 your passion is or your interest is if you don't have one at the moment?

00:14:18.900 I have always wondered why commencement speakers keep exhorting everyone to follow their passion when

00:14:24.360 most people in the audience don't have one yet. Just like you said, you know, I would follow it if

00:14:29.640 someone could tell me what it was. So, you know, maybe it's a little more helpful to think about

00:14:34.340 fostering a passion because it really is an active process. When people become interested in things,

00:14:40.340 it happens, you know, not necessarily all in a moment in time. You know, if you, if you,

00:14:45.180 if you try to date back your interest in something like a particular sport or, you know, something

00:14:49.380 that'll eventually become your job, your profession, it's, it's true that there are, you know,

00:14:53.700 sometimes these memorable experiences, like the first time I got to, you know, work with a great

00:14:57.860 coach or, you know, the first time that, you know, I realized that like writing could be something

00:15:02.060 that I could do for a living, but invariably there are subsequent experiences. Sometimes interest

00:15:08.700 researchers like to call this triggering and re-triggering where that interest gets deeper

00:15:13.080 and deeper. And that requires typically, you know, supportive people around you, like, you know,

00:15:18.400 other athletes on your team who make it an overall positive experience. One paragon of grit that I've

00:15:24.700 closely studied is Mark Vetteri. He's a world-class chef. He's, you know, my favorite chef in Philadelphia.

00:15:31.180 And, you know, when he remembers his boyhood, it's not that he knew when he was a kid that he was going

00:15:37.040 to grow up to be a chef. He actually thought he'd become a musician. But if you look at his

00:15:41.680 trajectory, he started cooking a little bit with his grandmother. You know, that was a very positive

00:15:46.720 emotional experience. You know, he started hanging around in restaurants. He just, he washed dishes

00:15:51.500 to make money because teenage boys like making money for, for, for good reason as well. And the people

00:15:57.700 in the kitchen were nice to him. He had a stutter and he was a little bit of an outcast in high school.

00:16:02.920 And when he went to the kitchen, he, you know, washed dishes. I gave him food to eat and it was

00:16:06.900 delicious. People are nice. And he started going to kitchens more and more. So it's, it's a messy

00:16:11.580 process. It, it doesn't happen in a moment in time. It often takes years to really grow into an

00:16:18.020 interest. And I think for the young people who are worried that they don't have a passion,

00:16:23.040 it's absolutely normal when you are exploring things to not yet have a passion. But what I would urge

00:16:29.400 them to do is to keep, keep trying to, to foster one because, uh, if you don't look for it, if you

00:16:35.940 don't try, you're certainly less likely to cultivate one than if you do. I think your story is also a

00:16:42.740 great example of how you find your interest or your passion. Cause I mean, you started off as a

00:16:48.360 business consultant and then you went to go teach at a, you know, lower income school. And this is this,

00:16:54.300 then you found out, okay, I want to figure out why some kids stick with it and some kids don't.

00:16:58.280 So you got your PhD in psychology. Uh, so this took several years to finally, to the point where

00:17:03.480 you're, you're the grit lady. You know, and I became the grit lady. Yes, exactly. And you know,

00:17:10.520 there was even more skipping around than that because, you know, I was a consultant in my late

00:17:14.680 twenties and, but there was some skipping around that, that, you know, I could tell you about,

00:17:18.660 but the point is, is that there was a lot of exploration before I figured out what I really

00:17:23.300 wanted to do. I, you know, it's a little bit like dating, right? I mean, you know, I'm pretty glad,

00:17:28.500 frankly, that I didn't marry the first guy that I went out with. And each time I broke up with

00:17:34.020 someone or, you know, they broke up with me, I think it was because one of us realized that this

00:17:39.120 isn't, you know, we weren't, we weren't going to do this for life that, you know, for one reason or

00:17:43.220 another, there's somebody else that we could have been with and been happier. It's not that dating is a

00:17:48.600 bad thing. But I think that if you are not at least trying to figure out something that eventually

00:17:54.520 you will stick with, right? Then again, you know, you're not going to likely find that thing. And

00:18:01.500 I'm so much more gratified by my life now that I have an expertise. I, you know, wake up every day

00:18:11.320 thinking about a fairly small set of scientific questions, all related to the psychology of

00:18:17.700 achievement. And I'll never get bored of those questions. And that's something I couldn't say

00:18:23.120 to you when I was 22 or 25, or probably even 31. It was not until my, you know, fourth decade of life

00:18:33.000 that I really started to hone in on what would make me so passionate and persevering in the way that I

00:18:41.780 feel like I am today. And so, so interest, I think a lot of people, it's kind of the fun part,

00:18:46.580 you're exploring, figuring out what you like. But the hard part about grit, and the thing I found

00:18:51.700 hard with it, and when I throw out and I look at my life is the practice part. And it's not just,

00:18:57.440 I think a lot of people have a miss, like a, not a good idea of what practice actually is.

00:19:02.540 You focus a lot on deliberate practice. For our listeners who aren't familiar with this concept,

00:19:06.280 what is deliberate practice?

00:19:07.920 Deliberate practice is very methodically and intentionally working on very specific aspects

00:19:17.080 of your overall performance, then trying with complete effort to remediate those weaknesses,

00:19:24.700 getting feedback, largely on what you're doing wrong, of course, because you're trying to do

00:19:29.100 something you can't yet do. And then reflecting, making a small refinement, and repeating the process

00:19:35.760 all over again. It is complete common sense, you know, what else would you do? Of course,

00:19:40.680 you would do that. But if you ask the question, how many people are really doing that, you know,

00:19:44.700 really honing in on something that they can't yet do, that would make them better, trying with full

00:19:49.820 effort and concentration, seeking out the feedback about what they should do differently,

00:19:54.580 making a refinement and starting all over again. I think a lot of people are frankly going through

00:19:59.320 life without doing any of that. And they're just sort of doing the same thing that they did

00:20:03.040 yesterday in a pretty unthoughtful, or in a way, mechanistic manner. Deliberate practice,

00:20:09.960 most people experience as highly effortful, and not very fun. There are exceptions, and I think those

00:20:17.160 exceptions are interesting. But I think the first lesson is that practice isn't supposed to be

00:20:21.920 like performance, which can be flow-like and delightful. Practice is, for most people,

00:20:29.080 really, really hard. Yeah. And so how do you, in your research and the people you've talked to,

00:20:36.000 what are these individuals who are consistent with their practice? It's very hard. How do they

00:20:41.340 keep themselves motivated to keep practicing the violin? You talk about spelling bee champions and the

00:20:46.060 amount of hours they spend practicing spelling. How do they stay motivated for that? Even when,

00:20:51.540 to do it, even when they're like, man, I don't want to do this anymore.

00:20:54.120 Well, you know, we should forgive ourselves for having those thoughts. I interviewed Rowdy Gaines,

00:21:00.120 who was the 1984 gold medalist in the 100-meter freestyle. And he also, I think, set the world

00:21:06.140 record in that same event. And, you know, he said that he hated getting up at, what, 4.30 in the

00:21:12.720 morning in the middle of, you know, the darkness of night, getting into a bathing suit, you know,

00:21:17.160 walking to the pool, jumping in, and not taking a leisurely, you know, lap or two. I mean,

00:21:21.800 like pushing his body to its very limits, you know, sometimes painful, often tedious. He didn't

00:21:28.000 love practice. And so, you know, we shouldn't beat ourselves up too much about the fact that,

00:21:32.100 you know, we can sometimes get that feeling of like, God, this is, you know, what am I even doing

00:21:37.800 here? Because everybody does occasionally, at least, experience that. I think one thing that

00:21:42.860 makes it easier is to make it a habit. You know, something happens when we do something at the

00:21:46.860 same time and in the same place in a ritualistic, routine way. And one of the things that happens is

00:21:53.620 that, you know, to some extent, it becomes a little more automatic. I mean, many people have

00:21:57.600 an exercise routine that, look, it's not that it doesn't take any effort, but it makes it a little

00:22:02.180 easier that, oh, it's just what I do. I'm going to get up at 6 o'clock in the morning and I put on my

00:22:06.580 sneakers and I'm out the door. So routine and habit are one recommendation. The other recommendation

00:22:12.900 is to go and hang out with a lot of people who are doing the same thing. So if you're going to try

00:22:17.160 to, you know, do something like begin running as part of your life, can you join another group of

00:22:23.580 people who are all going to be doing the same thing? Because really, human beings are, by their

00:22:28.140 nature, conformist to a logic. So, you know, we do what the herd does and it makes it easier if the

00:22:34.240 herd is, you know, doing something gritty if, of course, being gritty is something that we aspire to

00:22:38.700 ourselves. Right. And I guess imagine like having a purpose helps in that too, because you can

00:22:42.820 always connect the tedium to that higher purpose. Exactly. And, you know, it's not always easy to

00:22:49.580 see, but when you ask Rowdy Gaines, well, why did you swim, you know, so hard in practice? You know,

00:22:55.100 he laughed a little and he said, you know, I think I actually swim around the globe, you know, the

00:22:59.220 equivalent of it, right? If you add up all the, you know, each in 50 meter increments, right? But he

00:23:05.260 knew even when he was doing it, and it's not just in retrospect, right? Because he's, of course,

00:23:09.640 older now, he knew even at that moment that he had an overall passion for the sport that, you know,

00:23:15.980 the, the hours of practice put into the pool, we're, we're part of something larger. And so I

00:23:20.340 think that perspective of like, you know, this is not just sitting here, it is, it is part of a

00:23:25.800 bigger picture. I think that really does help. So I'm a parent and I'm sure that a lot of people

00:23:29.780 who are listening are parents. And this is like a trait I want to instill in my kid, like to keep

00:23:33.960 working at it, even if they don't succeed the first time, um, and persevere. Are there any tips

00:23:40.140 or in from your research that what parents can do to help encourage or foster grit in their own

00:23:45.220 children? One of the parents that I interviewed, because he himself is a paragon of grit, but you

00:23:51.240 know, like you has a, has a really deep desire to instill grit in his kids is Joe DeSena, who founded

00:23:58.940 the Spartan race. And, um, you know, he told me a story about a day where, where he lives, you know,

00:24:04.620 they live near mountains and, um, his son was on the ski team. And one day Joe was surprised because

00:24:10.740 he knew because of the time of day that it was the middle of ski practice. And his son comes in,

00:24:15.140 he's like, take it off his gloves. And, and Joe says, you know, what's up? Uh, aren't you supposed

00:24:19.660 to be out there? And his son said, it's too cold. Um, and Joe said, you better put your gloves

00:24:25.580 back on because, you know, we're going back up that mountain and we're going to ski down it.

00:24:30.520 And I think they, I think they walked up the mountain actually, um, uh, and, and they skied

00:24:35.580 down it. And I asked him, you know, what was the, what was the lesson you were trying to teach your

00:24:39.840 son? And he said, you know, I think kids are always learning and, uh, it's not just when we

00:24:45.900 think they're learning. And I didn't want my son to learn to quit. So I, you know, took him up there

00:24:51.680 and I showed him that he could do it. Uh, I showed him that it wasn't as bad as he thought,

00:24:56.420 right. That it wasn't impossible to do something like that. Um, and I also made him realize that

00:25:01.600 like he should keep going to ski practice because if he comes in before it's over, his dad's going

00:25:06.740 to take him out and make it even harder. Um, so, so, you know, I think the lesson is that,

00:25:11.780 that the kids really are learning at all the time. And we do have an opportunity as parents

00:25:18.480 to show them what they won't come to on their own. You know, I'm a parent of a 13 and 14 year

00:25:23.740 old girl. Both of them are girls. And, um, I thought when they were younger, I, I model grit

00:25:30.520 for them. They'll just, you know, do what I do. I don't think that's enough. I think that's helpful,

00:25:35.300 but, you know, to expect kids to, you know, practice their piano when they'd rather go out

00:25:39.440 on a play date or, you know, to always be resilient when they, you know, lose a race or, you know,

00:25:44.440 to know what to do when, um, when they screw up and they do badly in a, in a class, you know,

00:25:49.760 they really need parents to, to say things to them. Like, you know, it's, it's natural to want

00:25:54.360 to quit on a hard day, but I'm not going to let you. Right. So you got to be intentional about it.

00:25:59.320 I think so. I think so. And it is very hard, isn't it? I mean, you know, parenting is so hard.

00:26:04.240 You don't want to think about it, right? Cause you're, you have other things to think about.

00:26:08.520 Yeah. Yeah. But you know, you know, but yes, I think it being intentional. Absolutely.

00:26:12.720 Yeah. One of the things I like the suggestions that you do in your own family is like the hard

00:26:16.060 thing rule where I can say more about that. Yeah. I mean, I would, I would love to hear more about

00:26:21.200 that. You know, as a parent, I, and as a psychologist, I was trying to navigate, um,

00:26:27.740 you know, in the sense that I, I knew that on the one hand, my kids needed me to help discipline

00:26:33.300 them. Right. You know, kids are five, six, seven. Again, you know, they, they, they, they invariably

00:26:38.260 need a parent to, to tell them occasionally that like, no, you absolutely have to do

00:26:42.680 your practice before you can, you know, go out and do this other fun thing outside or

00:26:46.560 whatever. Um, so on the other hand, I knew that they needed autonomy because human beings

00:26:52.160 do not pursue things with passion that they have not chosen for themselves to do. So here's

00:26:57.480 how we manage that in our family, even since our kids were very little, five years old, I

00:27:03.400 think, uh, my husband and I said that in the Duckworth family, everyone has to do a hard

00:27:08.620 thing. That's the first part of the hard thing rule that you have to have a hard

00:27:11.800 thing for my daughters. Um, you know, piano for one, um, and the other, um, was eventually,

00:27:19.720 you know, viola. But the point was, is that by heart, I meant requiring that deliberate

00:27:25.920 practice where you are intentionally trying to remediate some kind of weakness, problem

00:27:31.620 solve, uh, and get feedback and get better and better. Secondly, they have to finish what

00:27:37.860 they begin. And it was very important to my husband and myself that just like Joe DeSino,

00:27:42.820 we, we didn't want our kids to, to learn to quit in the middle of things. So they were

00:27:47.360 not allowed to quit in track when they weren't doing well and told me they wanted to quit.

00:27:51.960 They, they weren't allowed to, you know, quit in the middle of ballet before the tuition

00:27:56.060 payment was, was up. They weren't allowed to quit their instrument, you know, what, cause

00:28:00.320 they didn't feel like practicing for recital. You know, they were allowed to quit, but not

00:28:04.720 until they finished the commitment that they had already made. So, uh, so that was the

00:28:10.620 second part of the hard thing rule that they had to finish the, to the natural end point,

00:28:15.060 the natural interval. And then they could pick another hard thing, but this brings me to the

00:28:20.500 third part of the hard thing rule. And it's the last part and just as important as the first

00:28:24.860 two. And that is that nobody gets to pick your hard thing, but you, you know, I didn't tell

00:28:30.960 my kids, you know, you have to play viola and you have to play piano. Like they, they

00:28:35.460 chose these things on their own. And I think we don't have to give kids every choice, but

00:28:40.760 we do have to give them some choice because that autonomy is crucial for fostering passion.

00:28:46.540 Yeah. I love that. Love creating that culture of, uh, of grit in your family. And speaking of,

00:28:51.320 you know, culture, like I, since your initial research has come out, uh, it seems like there's

00:28:55.660 a lot of business organizations that have been implementing some of these ideas of trying

00:28:59.260 to develop a culture of grit in their business or their organization. And you talk about, uh,

00:29:05.080 the Seattle Seahawks, uh, head coach, Pete Carroll. Um, what is Pete doing with his team to develop

00:29:11.680 this idea of grit there? You know, Pete Carroll was working on grit long before he watched my Ted

00:29:18.460 talk and called me up. I don't know whether he used the word grit, but, you know, it really captures,

00:29:24.100 I think for him, the quality of competitor that he's looking for, you know, every coach is trying

00:29:30.960 to select for the qualities that he wants. You know, that's why they care so much about scouting

00:29:35.220 and, uh, recruitment, but every coach is also interested in cultivating those same qualities

00:29:41.320 once those players get there. And, and Pete's no exception. So for Pete, I think what he's trying

00:29:46.840 to do is, you know, model commitment that, you know, I would describe as passion and perseverance.

00:29:52.060 Um, he has what I find is true of paragons of grit, which is a top level goal. You know,

00:29:58.300 really, really gritty people are usually able to articulate in a single sentence that ends with

00:30:04.620 a period, the top level goal that motivates everything that they do for Pete. It's only two

00:30:11.740 words, always compete. You have to unpack that. He, he means compete in a very pretty, basically he

00:30:18.020 means always striving to be your best. Um, he left out the part that, you know, obviously he's doing

00:30:23.800 that through coaching and football, but nevertheless, it's a, it's kind of a, a compass for him, you

00:30:29.240 know, that everything in his life is in service to that top level goal. And he's trying to get his

00:30:35.880 players to realize that, you know, that is possible for them as well. He, he does it in part through

00:30:41.980 modeling, but in part through rituals. So, uh, there's a tell your, you know, tell the truth

00:30:46.980 Monday tradition at the Seahawks where, you know, we talked about deliberate practice is working on,

00:30:52.160 you know, your relative weaknesses and getting feedback. Well, the tell your truth Monday

00:30:56.860 tradition is that the guys watch their film and they watch the things that they did right.

00:31:01.560 And they watch the things that they did wrong. And in a, in a dispassionate way, you know,

00:31:05.960 analyze it's like, okay, I should do this differently. Okay. Let me try it again.

00:31:09.260 And I think that kind of ritualizing is, is crucial to culture. And the last thing I'll just say is

00:31:15.420 that language is really important. You know, the words that we use, I think are symbolic of the

00:31:21.460 values that we hold. And, you know, when I was at the Seahawks, it was almost like, uh, being in a

00:31:26.640 foreign country, you know, somebody said to me while I was there, I speak fluent Carol. And I think what

00:31:32.280 he meant was that these phrases that are very much part of being a Seahawk, you know, finish strong.

00:31:39.700 Be early, no whining, no excuses, always compete. I mean, you know, you talk to anybody in a Seahawks

00:31:46.820 organization, they know exactly what you mean. You talk to people outside the organization and they

00:31:52.400 may or may not know because of course outside you're not a Seahawk. Right. Well, Angela, we, we

00:31:57.940 scratch, literally scratched the surface, uh, about your research and your book. Uh, where can people go

00:32:02.500 to learn more about your work as well as the book? I guess they can learn about my work primarily

00:32:09.120 through the book, but also at my website, which is AngelaDuckworth.com. All right. Well, Angela

00:32:14.420 Duckworth, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. I've really enjoyed it.

00:32:19.260 My guest today was Angela Duckworth. She's the author of Grit, The Power of Passion and

00:32:23.180 Perseverance. And it's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find more information

00:32:27.940 about her, uh, book at AngelaDuckworth.com. And while you're there, you can even take the

00:32:32.560 grit scale test to see how gritty you are. And also, uh, make sure to check out the show

00:32:37.040 notes at AOM.IS slash grit for more information about the topic we discussed today.

00:32:42.200 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,

00:32:59.680 make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And if you enjoy

00:33:03.840 the show and have gotten something out of it, I'd appreciate it if you give us a review on iTunes.

00:33:07.460 That'd really help us out a lot in spreading the word about the show. As always, I appreciate your

00:33:11.720 support. And until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.

The Art of Manliness - June 16, 2016

#210： Got Grit？

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