The Art of Manliness - #211： Ask Frances - Difficult Conversations, Small Talk, and Charisma

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:17.980 So a few months ago, we had a guest on the show. Her name is Frances Cole Jones. She's

00:00:22.640 the author of the book, How to Wow, Proven Strategies for Selling Your Brilliant Self

00:00:26.840 in any situation. Great podcast. If you haven't listened to it yet, go check it out. It's

00:00:31.520 podcast number 164. And Frances, she makes her living coaching high-level executives and

00:00:37.400 other media personalities on how to put their best foot forward in business situations or

00:00:43.360 if they're going to be on TV or on the radio. And we got a lot of great feedback on that

00:00:47.340 show because she provided a lot of great tips on job interviews, negotiations, social skills, 0.90

00:00:53.280 small talk, et cetera. She got into that. And at the end of the show, she invited our

00:00:58.260 listeners to go to her website where she has a form where you can ask her any question when

00:01:03.040 it comes to personal presentation in your professional or personal life. So how to make small talk, what

00:01:10.020 should you wear to a job interview, how do you prepare for a job interview, things like

00:01:13.200 that. And she was flooded with questions. And she emailed me back and said, I got a lot

00:01:17.480 of great questions. And I thought it'd be, you know what, this would be a great idea for

00:01:21.100 you bring Frances back onto the show to answer some of these questions that you all asked

00:01:25.340 her. Because I figure if one guy had that question, there's probably, you know, two or

00:01:28.980 three dozen other guys who have that same question. So we're going to make this a regular

00:01:33.020 thing. She got a lot. We were only able to cover a few in this episode. I'm going to call

00:01:37.400 it Ask Frances. And we're going to answer some of the questions you asked her several months

00:01:43.040 ago. So today, the themes we hit on today are how to deal with difficult conversations or

00:01:47.760 power struggles in the workplace, how to deal when you're having small talk and you feel like

00:01:52.840 the conversation is lagging, or maybe you throw something out there and it just sort of bombs and

00:01:57.940 like everyone just is silent. How do you deal with that situation? And then we also talk about how

00:02:01.980 to deal with those things you might be self-conscious about that whenever you're interacting with

00:02:07.080 others. So if you have a stutter, how do you handle that with grace and charm? What do you do if you

00:02:11.960 feel like you're too tall? We also talk about how things, specific things you can do to be

00:02:16.160 more charismatic in both your professional and personal life. Great episode. And again,

00:02:21.240 after the show, check out the show notes. You can find that at aom.is slash jones. And you can also

00:02:28.640 visit her site at franciscolejones.com where you can ask her another question. So we can bring that

00:02:36.080 up the next time we do this. So without further ado, Frances Cole Jones on basically being your best

00:02:41.760 self in whatever situation you find yourself in. Frances Cole Jones, welcome back to the show.

00:02:49.560 Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

00:02:51.920 So we had you on a few months ago to talk about your book, How to Wow. It's all about presentation

00:02:57.380 in the workplace, your personal life. So you give your best possible impression. And at the end of

00:03:03.100 the show, first off, the show is well received. We got a lot of great feedback from it. But at the end of

00:03:07.600 the show, you invited our listeners to go to your website and you have a place where they can submit

00:03:13.960 questions about any topic about presentation, charisma, body language, professional dress,

00:03:21.260 et cetera. And you were just overwhelmed with the amount of questions and awesome questions that AOM

00:03:27.400 podcast listeners had for you. And we thought it'd be fun. You and I discussed this to bring you back

00:03:34.920 every now and then because you had so many questions about a wide variety of topics to bring

00:03:39.600 you back and discuss some of these questions. I think if one or two of these listeners had that

00:03:44.400 question, it's probably thousands or hundreds that have the same question. So that's what we're going

00:03:49.960 to do. I think we'll have you on every quarter or so to discuss about how to wow and the specifics of

00:03:56.200 it. Thank you. Yeah, no, I agree. I loved all the questions that I got and I really do. I put that

00:04:02.340 proposal out all the time, but it's a testament to your listeners that they took me up on it

00:04:08.260 because they did. And all the questions do roll to my phone and I do answer every single one of them.

00:04:16.460 It might take me a little bit, but I do. And I just, I really, it's one of the great,

00:04:20.400 great pleasures and privileges of what I do. That's great. So there was some common themes that

00:04:26.540 came up and we'll hit on a few of them today and some of the specific questions about these common

00:04:31.580 themes. And, uh, one common theme was charisma, um, and how to access charisma. But before we get

00:04:38.800 to the specific questions about charisma, because the one question that happened over and over again

00:04:42.660 was, uh, many people believe you're either born with charisma or you aren't. Um, is this true?

00:04:48.440 No. And if, right, right. No. And then, so it's something you can cultivate it. And if so, how,

00:04:53.680 but before we answer that question, can you, how do you define charisma? Like what are we shooting

00:04:58.840 for? To me, charisma is that, that quality that makes you say, Ooh, I I'm so happy. I'm going to

00:05:07.220 be saying, seeing so-and-so, or wow, I I'm really, you know, I'm completely engrossed in this conversation.

00:05:15.180 Um, and it has nothing to do with looks and it has nothing to do with your bank account. And it's

00:05:21.060 nothing to do with what you're wearing. It's just that quality of passion and curiosity. Um,

00:05:28.000 it's kind of a mix of the two things. So, okay. If you're not born with it,

00:05:33.780 um, how do you cultivate it? Well, there are a few things that you can do. I mean,

00:05:38.880 one of the things, first of all, I just want to say, you know, cause both people do say,

00:05:42.420 Oh, but I've been told I don't have any charisma. You don't have, maybe you don't have it. Maybe

00:05:45.920 you haven't accessed it yet, but let's definitely say yet. Cause it is possible for everyone.

00:05:51.440 Um, I think that the, you know, if you're doing a, if you're giving a presentation,

00:05:56.040 the way to make yourself charismatic is to say to yourself, why do I have to tell this story?

00:06:02.640 Like what about it do is so desperately important to me, but that needs to be added into why does my

00:06:11.880 audience have to hear this? Why is hearing this going to make their life better? And what happens is,

00:06:21.040 you know, very often when people do presentations, they're very good with the front end. They're

00:06:24.540 very clear on why I have to tell this story, but they're less clear on why their audience has to

00:06:31.520 hear it. That piece of really, truly, this will make your life better. And I'm going to tell you how.

00:06:37.200 So there's that piece of it for presentations. And then I think it's always really good to all,

00:06:44.980 to explain how did it transform my life? You know, because what that does is it gets you into a

00:06:50.920 storytelling mode and storytelling is so much more interesting than what's known in my business

00:06:56.040 as useless modifiers. Like it's just really great. It's amazing. It's incredible. Nothing happens in

00:07:01.160 my brain. So how did it transform your life and how will it transform your listener's life?

00:07:10.760 So those are two things to think about with presentations in terms of just one-on-one

00:07:15.900 encounters. If you're feeling nervous about it, a great trick that I use a lot is imagine that your

00:07:23.220 person you're meeting is a reporter and say to yourself, okay, what three words, if I were going

00:07:29.320 to read an article about myself after this meeting, what three words would I want the reporter to use

00:07:36.260 to describe me? Would I want that person to say that I'm curious or I'm passionate or I'm sympathetic

00:07:43.900 or whatever it might be, but pick three attributes that you really want to embody while you're speaking

00:07:52.180 to them. And what's nice about that is it really does give you a focus for staying present for the

00:07:59.660 person you're speaking to. So yeah, I think you talked about in the last podcast you had is like

00:08:05.440 part of charisma is just being like being fully present with the person.

00:08:09.100 And listening and listening, you know, people listen kind of one of two ways. They listen to either

00:08:15.180 interrupt or they listen to, you know, yes, to interject their own story. So they either want to negate

00:08:26.960 or they want to turn the conversation back to them. But I think when you're really listening to

00:08:33.160 somebody, asking them things like, you know, how did that make you feel? And wow, that sounds like

00:08:40.580 it's something that was really hard for you. And the person you're talking to is like, oh my God,

00:08:45.160 you're right. It was really hard for me. And all of a sudden, again, they leave that encounter and

00:08:51.120 they're like, oh my goodness, so-and-so is so charismatic.

00:08:54.820 Is there anything with your body language that you can convey that you are present? Because,

00:09:02.900 you know, everyone talks about Bill Clinton. He has this sort of magic ability to make that one

00:09:08.900 person in the room feel like they're the only person in the room.

00:09:12.160 I think it comes back to eye communication. And, you know, which again is above and beyond eye

00:09:17.200 contact, which is just, you know, kind of not at all the same thing, but it's really staying with

00:09:22.520 that person and keeping, you know, because, you know, you've been at different parties and had

00:09:27.560 different encounters. Well, the person is kind of talking to you and kind of looking over your

00:09:32.040 shoulder to see if someone more interesting is walking in the room. So it is that person who just

00:09:36.800 stays with you and really, you know, looks, you know, into your eyes. And one of the things that I

00:09:44.060 talk about, there is a school of thought that says that when you really want to persuade somebody

00:09:49.920 about something, then you look into their left eye as you're talking. That is the way that you can

00:09:58.100 persuade them of whatever it is.

00:10:00.000 What's going on there? Why the left eye?

00:10:03.520 Well, you know, it can be people, you might have to, you know, roll with this a little bit, because

00:10:08.640 some people think this is kooky. But, you know, there is a school of thought in that the right side of

00:10:15.580 your body is fire and the left side of your body is water. This is the whole yin yang thing. It's

00:10:21.140 an Ayurvedic thing. So if you're looking into somebody's left eye, you're looking into that

00:10:27.200 softer, more fluid, more accepting and receptive part. The opposite is true. You know, when you're

00:10:36.780 finished being persuasive and you just need them to do whatever it is that you need them to do,

00:10:41.240 if you want to command somebody about something, look into their right eye. Now, you know, there are a

00:10:47.580 lot of people who are listening to this and thinking, you know, she's completely off her rocker.

00:10:52.520 You know, and I get that. And so I guess the only thing I can do is I can invite you to see if it works

00:10:58.400 for you. Certainly, it's a trick that are a tool, let's say that I use all the time. And it also, it just is

00:11:06.720 really helpful in terms of keeping you focused. If you're looking with both of your eyes at their

00:11:11.260 left eye, you're going to stay with them. You're going to stay present in a very different way.

00:11:16.100 Yeah, I can see that being useful in that way. Like just for that, just like it helps,

00:11:20.860 it gives you something to focus on. Right. Instead of wandering around your eyes. But yeah,

00:11:24.780 so we're gonna challenge AOM listeners right now, like check it out, go out and do the left eye thing

00:11:29.920 and write Francis a note saying this is completely kooky, Francis, or hey, Francis, it worked. And

00:11:36.060 yeah, tweet it out to me because I'd like to hear the responses as well. All right. So yeah,

00:11:40.480 accessing charisma is like getting that passionate why and being able to articulate it.

00:11:46.460 Passion and curiosity.

00:11:48.020 Passion and curiosity and just being fully and completely present with the person, whether

00:11:53.140 you've just one on one or even when you're giving a presentation to a larger group.

00:11:56.820 Yes. Okay. So there you go. Accessing charisma. So another theme that came up with the questions

00:12:05.380 you received was how to have difficult conversations, um, both professionally and, uh, in your personal

00:12:12.620 life, whether it's, uh, your children or spouse, et cetera. So one question was going to the personal

00:12:19.120 life side is how do you stay out of the, he said, she said conversations that often pop up.

00:12:25.720 Right. I think, I mean, again, this is personal life and with friends and in the workplace.

00:12:34.980 First thing I want you to do, um, if it is, is once you finish a conversation,

00:12:41.480 you know, write that person a note. I know it sounds crazy, but the minute you get it in an email and say,

00:12:47.580 you know, as we discussed this afternoon, X is going to be happening. You know, I will be handling Y,

00:12:53.600 you will be handling Z, whatever it might be. You've got to have a paper trail. It's critical, 0.51

00:13:00.520 um, particularly in your workplace, because if you don't have that paper trail, then everybody,

00:13:07.100 again, can go back to like, no, no, that's not how I remember it. Um, and that doesn't help you at all.

00:13:13.340 The other thing that is really important with, uh, he said, she said is not to get into a feelings

00:13:18.920 based conversation. Um, it really needs to be a fact based conversation. So if someone's, you know,

00:13:27.540 if you're talking to somebody, but when you do that, I feel like this is whatever it might be.

00:13:31.880 Um, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't want any part of that. Um, at that point,

00:13:38.240 what I recommend you say is I think the most important piece for me right now is to get clarity

00:13:44.860 on your expectations, expectations of me. You're not having, you know, you want no part of how they

00:13:52.040 feel about anybody else. It's just, what does this person expect from you in this moment that you can

00:13:59.440 now achieve? Um, the other thing, you know, and again, not so much, um, in a one-on-one encounter,

00:14:06.840 but if you do are in a workplace situation with your boss, um, or at a lunch or anything like that,

00:14:13.700 the minute that you take out a notebook and you start writing down what people are saying,

00:14:20.100 people get very focused on, look, this is actually what I want to say rather than meandering down some

00:14:28.300 kind of crazy feelings based, um, emotional turmoil situation. So a notebook is super useful.

00:14:36.900 Um, and again, one of the other places that I highly recommend having your notebook in hand

00:14:41.920 is anytime you're dealing with a doctor or a doctor's appointment for yourself or anyone else,

00:14:47.400 because it's so very easy to, you know, be overwhelmed with emotion and not be listening

00:14:56.100 and not be present. So just make sure you have that. Okay. And I mean, let's, let's say you're

00:15:01.380 doing a phone call and you want to, uh, make the person aware. I think you don't want to say I'm

00:15:07.100 recording this conversation, uh, cause that just like puts them, right. You know, like they get

00:15:11.360 defensive, but you still want to let them understand that you're going to follow up with them. Right.

00:15:16.040 So you can avoid those. Like how, what would be sort of a clean way of doing that?

00:15:19.420 A lot of it's going to come down to tone. So you have to, in the most upbeat way imaginable, say,

00:15:23.920 I love what you're saying. And I think it's so important. So what I'm going to do is I'm going

00:15:27.680 to take notes while we're talking and then I'm going to type up my understanding of what we

00:15:33.440 discussed. And I'm going to send that on over to you. Perfect. I like that. So you can avoid that

00:15:39.840 whole thing. Well, you said this on the phone and then it also takes out, you know, uh, reduces the

00:15:44.560 risk of being like misunderstanding that can happen over the telephone. Right. Someone says

00:15:48.900 something with a tone and it might not actually mean what they, the tone conveyed. Um, so it allows

00:15:55.560 them to correct themselves or clarify. Yeah. And people, again, people do the minute you say,

00:16:00.360 you know, I just, I'm going to be, I'm going, it's not may I, you're not asking permission.

00:16:04.380 I'm going to be taking some notes while we talk because this is really important. You want to give

00:16:09.540 them the because behind why you're doing it? Um, you know, not because I don't trust you or because

00:16:15.520 or because you always say one thing and do another, because this is so important. I want to be,

00:16:22.480 I'm going to be taking some notes while we're talking. Awesome. Well, let's say, um, you have this

00:16:28.380 conversation and there's some misunderstanding and you need to go back and clean up that, that

00:16:36.120 misunderstood conversation. So how do you double back to an earlier conversation that you might

00:16:42.420 have had and say, look, I thought there was some static here. Uh, can we revisit this without

00:16:48.060 it being awkward, I guess? I mean, I think that you want to always say, you know, I feel like

00:16:56.020 take the onus on yourself. I feel like I, um, there was some misunderstanding around our earlier

00:17:01.680 conversation. I'm just not completely clear. So what I'd like to do is double back into it and

00:17:08.620 make sure that I, again, really understand your expectations of me and, and, and also know that

00:17:14.900 you have clarity on what I'm going to be doing going forward. But yeah, but always take the onus

00:17:22.000 for any kind of mishmash on yourself. Yeah. Don't say, well, you were unclear. Yeah. That always

00:17:27.180 sound. That ends poorly. Right. So I think one of the things that makes difficult conversations

00:17:33.420 difficult is the emotion that's in the situation or perceived emotion that's in the situation.

00:17:40.920 Because I often, I found with difficult conversations, like I'm the one who's thinking that

00:17:44.380 there's a lot of emotion and tension there. And the other person like is completely oblivious

00:17:49.960 to that tension or emotion. Uh, so what are some good ways of taking out the, the emotion of

00:17:56.680 difficult conversations? I think what usually happens is that people get really focused on

00:18:03.360 what they want and they either don't articulate or you just don't happen to know the why behind why

00:18:13.760 they want it. Cause that, so what you really need to do is get underneath the what. So, and there

00:18:22.380 are a few ways to do that. So someone's like, I have to do this on this day. Um, okay. You know,

00:18:28.500 what I'd like to do is I'd like to, you know, I'd like to hear a little bit more important to you.

00:18:33.380 Um, so, I mean, the few questions that I always ask in that moment is, you know, can we unpack that

00:18:38.760 a little bit? Can you tell me a little bit more about why this is important? Because I want to make

00:18:45.740 sure I understand. Um, or can we dig underneath this? You know, I can hear that it's important.

00:18:52.040 Um, I've taken that in, but I really want to learn a little bit more about why it's important.

00:18:57.120 Um, because what that does is that sometimes underneath the demand, the what, uh, people

00:19:05.160 actually feel much more similarly than you might imagine. So it's getting underneath that initial,

00:19:13.980 like kind of the power struggle or the demand for something. Um, the other thing that I think

00:19:20.060 is, can be really helpful in those moments is to say, you know, I need this or this needs to happen.

00:19:25.600 Okay. Well, what would that look like for you? Because you can think that, you know, like, you know,

00:19:31.420 I mean, it's such a silly example, but you know, someone can say, I need you to do the laundry.

00:19:40.420 Okay. So to one person, that means, you know, you separate the lights and the darks and you put it 0.99

00:19:47.900 on cold or whatever it might be. And the other person was like, I'm just getting it done. I'm

00:19:51.920 heaving everything in the washing machine. Um, so people end up with very different results in those

00:19:59.600 moments. So asking, what was it going to look like for you? Or, you know, having this happen,

00:20:05.360 what that, what is this going to provide for you? Because sometimes when we know what it's going to

00:20:09.600 provide for somebody, we're like, Oh, okay. I get, I get it, but it's important. You don't seem

00:20:14.580 as unreasonable anymore. So those are a couple of good questions.

00:20:20.600 And then what do you do after you get those answers? Let's say you, you've, you know,

00:20:24.400 you ask the why and you understand where they're coming from, but still you're like,

00:20:28.500 but still like, I, I, I can't jive with that. It's just like, cause there's a,

00:20:33.560 there's competing interest or just not congruent. Um, how do you,

00:20:38.420 I think again, you did better saying to them, like I do, I get why this is important to you.

00:20:43.660 And I understand your rationale, the rationale for your request. But what I'm going to do is I'm

00:20:49.560 going to ask you to, you know, show me the same courtesy and understand why I'm coming at it from

00:20:58.840 the place that I'm coming at it and why this, you know, this is as important to me. Um, because again,

00:21:06.520 sometimes they haven't even begun to tune in to the why behind why you're making the quest and,

00:21:14.600 or maybe you didn't spell it out that clearly. Okay. So that makes sense. Um, so another common

00:21:22.020 theme was, uh, social anxiety, um, just being uncomfortable in social situations, whether it's

00:21:28.880 one-on-one conversation that say at a party or on a date or doing a job interview. Um, cause I mean,

00:21:34.560 that's a social situation that, that can produce a peak anxiety cause you're on the spotlight. Um,

00:21:41.120 so let's talk about just general conversation. Um, one, one question an AOM listener, uh,

00:21:46.940 asked you, or what are three ways to stay in a conversation you feel is flagging?

00:21:55.300 Well, there are a couple of different things that I always like to do. I think that you can

00:21:59.440 always say, you know, I'd love to get your opinion on this. Um, because I don't know anybody who

00:22:08.260 doesn't love to get their, give their opinion about something. So if, you know, if you feel

00:22:13.720 like a conversation is flagging, say, you know, this has been so interesting so far, but I really,

00:22:18.060 I'd like to, I'd like to little know a little bit more. I'd like to get your opinion. Um, the other

00:22:22.220 thing is, is that when they're in the middle of their story, um, if you just keep saying, frankly,

00:22:27.080 and then what happened and then what happened, or the other, my favorite is, can you tell me more

00:22:33.140 about that? You know, because people will follow that lead in an almost, it's almost, it's, it's,

00:22:42.240 it's a fascinating thing to do. Um, what I hear more often than that though, is that people will say,

00:22:49.660 Oh my God, you know, this morning I was having such a nervous breakdown about blah, blah, blah.

00:22:53.780 And the person listening will be like, Oh my God, me too. I was having the worst morning. Okay. Well,

00:23:00.420 this is not a conversation. So, wow. Can you tell me more about that? And then what happened?

00:23:07.760 Um, what did that look like? And all of those kinds of things, just leave them on a little bit

00:23:11.840 and really try and get into some of the nitty gritty will be more interesting for you.

00:23:16.160 Yeah. And any other ways? I mean, that's, I like, I think it's a great one. Um, let's say like,

00:23:22.680 it's feeling like, how do you interject, like, besides asking what's your opinion? Like,

00:23:26.360 let's say you want to bring up a new topic. How do you, what's a good way of transitioning

00:23:29.920 to a new topic? Well, I think that you want to pick a topic that hopefully again is as interesting

00:23:36.020 to them as it is to you. Um, so, I mean, I understand it's always way more fun to talk

00:23:43.280 about ourselves. I get that, but it doesn't make for a great conversation. So I think that

00:23:50.600 it's one of those moments that you can say, you know, tell me a little bit about what you

00:23:55.040 do, you know, in your free time. Um, because, you know, here's some of the things I like to

00:23:59.860 do, but I'd love to learn more about, you know, you look like you're very fit. Um, you

00:24:06.180 obviously work at whatever that might be. What? So it's just, it's really take again, taking

00:24:12.000 clues from where you are, how you know them, who introduced the two of you. That's always

00:24:18.160 like when people are introducing, you know, we are being introduced to someone. Um, so how

00:24:23.080 you, or if you meet people at a party, so how do you know, how do you know the host? I promise

00:24:28.560 you they will go on for half an hour about the very first time they met.

00:24:32.140 Yeah. No. And I love the question, like what you do in your free time, because, you know,

00:24:36.840 typically the, the go-to thing that I go to is like, so what do you do? And by that, I

00:24:40.540 mean, like, what do you do for a living? And it's kind of boring. I think a lot of people

00:24:45.400 when they're at a party, they're like, okay, last thing I want to talk about is work. Um,

00:24:49.680 but I love that question. Like, what do you do in your free time? Right. That's a great

00:24:52.120 one. Very cool. All right. So, so there's some ways to keep the conversation going is, uh, ask

00:24:57.940 their opinion on something and then keep asking and then what, and then what, and then ask

00:25:02.460 them questions about how they might know the host or what they do in the free time.

00:25:06.460 Right. And the other thing that I think of just another note about introduction, introducing

00:25:11.120 people to each other, because I don't know if you've ever had this experience, but very

00:25:15.540 often I'll, I'll, I'll know someone who is introducing me to someone else and they'll

00:25:20.080 say, Oh my God, Francis, this is Brett. You're going to love him. All right. I don't,

00:25:25.940 go with that. Like, I'm sure I will love you, but don't, you know, that's tough. Um, cause

00:25:35.760 it sets the two people up with a lot of pressure for nothing. Um, so again, I think it's always

00:25:42.940 really helpful if you're introducing people to each other to say, you know, this is so

00:25:47.060 and so, this is so, so, and this is why I think the two of you are going to have a great

00:25:50.940 time talking. So what do you do? You're in a conversation with someone and you put

00:25:56.280 out a thought, uh, a fact or a conversation starter that goes over like a lead balloon.

00:26:03.140 I think we've all had that happen. We throw something out there and they're just sort

00:26:05.620 of like, man, it's like the uncomfortable silence. So what, what do you do in those

00:26:10.760 situations?

00:26:11.340 I think the most important thing is to keep a sense of humor about it because what you

00:26:16.940 don't want to do is end up a, you know, killing the conversation and then be making other people

00:26:26.540 do the cleanup for you. So I think it's one of these moments that you can say, Oh, you

00:26:32.240 know what? I guess that really wasn't as interesting as I thought it was going to be. Um, which is

00:26:38.720 very different than saying, well, I guess I'm the only one who finds that interesting.

00:26:44.300 Okay. Now you've alienated everybody. Um, so, you know, or you could say, wow, you know,

00:26:52.000 now that I'm, I heard that out loud, it's really not as funny as it was when it was inside my brain.

00:26:57.140 Um, again, which is, it's a lighthearted way of letting everybody off the hook.

00:27:03.440 Gotcha. So you use some self-deprecating humor a bit, have some humility. Okay. Um,

00:27:08.680 so going back to job interviews, um, one listener asked, how can people cope with anxiety in job

00:27:15.280 interviews? One of the things, and it sounds incredibly pedantic, but one of the things I

00:27:21.220 want everybody to do is to pick three small talk topics before an interview, because I mean,

00:27:28.920 there are, there are all these, you know, we prepare for the, I hope we prepare,

00:27:33.840 please prepare for the hard questions. Um, but what we don't, you know, what we don't prepare

00:27:39.860 for is that, you know, space of time while you're walking down the hall with somebody or while we've

00:27:46.680 just had a great interview and you're standing by the elevator waiting and you pick a topic out of

00:27:52.940 thin air and the whole thing blows up in your face. So I really want you to have three small talk

00:27:59.000 topics in your back pocket, um, before any kind of interview. And, uh, they can be as small as well.

00:28:08.860 Are there any restaurants nearby that you would recommend? You know, that kind of thing.

00:28:13.880 Right. You want, you want to stay away from things like politics probably.

00:28:17.220 Yeah. And, and, and don't, I mean, if they've hung their diploma, um, on the wall of their office,

00:28:22.660 by all means, feel free to comment on that. But I do, I don't recommend getting anywhere near like

00:28:29.120 family photos or anything because people don't tend to update those as frequently and, or they might've

00:28:36.560 had a terrible fight with their spouse that morning or with their kid. And then they like tell you the

00:28:43.080 entire story. And then they're horrified afterward that they overshared. Okay. So yeah, stay away

00:28:48.760 from the family. Stay away from the family, but sort of keep it on pleasantries, restaurant, food,

00:28:54.920 sports, maybe movies. Okay. Three things there. Okay. That'll help with the anxiety. I mean,

00:29:01.520 anything else besides that? I mean, is there any things right before you go into the interview? Is

00:29:05.780 there any sort of, I don't know, mindset things you can do to help prepare yourself to kind of take off

00:29:11.140 the edge? I mean, I think that there's, I want you to have done an obscene amount of research ahead

00:29:17.940 of time, not in a creepy way. Um, you know, not like, wow, I was looking at the pictures of you

00:29:22.840 in seventh grade. That's going to, you know, depress everybody and make you seem like a stalker. Um,

00:29:27.800 but to say, you know, you went to X school, that is incredibly impressive. I saw that. Or wow,

00:29:34.620 I really, I saw that your company does, you know, the, the, this philanthropic outreach. And I was so

00:29:39.880 impressed by that. So again, it's just, it's really letting them know that you have done more

00:29:47.160 than prepared to talk about yourself. It's demonstrating that you're prepared to talk

00:29:52.840 about them. Right. Cause yeah, a lot of part of the job interview, it's not so much to suss out

00:29:57.840 your qualifications. They usually do that through the resume. They can see your GPA, your curriculum

00:30:01.820 vitae. I just want to know, like, are they going to get along with you? They do. When they, cause

00:30:06.480 they're going to spend like, cause you, you spend most of your time, uh, with the people

00:30:10.020 you work with. I mean, you probably spend more time with them than your family. Um,

00:30:13.760 so they want to make sure. Yeah. For those of you who've like, I don't know if anybody's

00:30:17.060 read the Tina Fey book, bossy pounds, but one of the things she, when she was talking about 1.00

00:30:20.620 being the head writer at Saturday night life, one of the things they talked about is, is this

00:30:24.820 somebody that I want to see in the break room at three o'clock in the morning? Cause we're

00:30:28.400 going to be there together. Right. So, so yeah, it's, it's about, if you're gonna get along,

00:30:33.140 I remember I read, I was reading this book by this one guy, he was interviewing for a job at

00:30:37.200 like a high, you know, high end, um, investment firm. And there were a ton of other like qualified

00:30:42.880 people. Like it was hyper competitive. Um, but he happened to see that the interviewing manager

00:30:49.320 or executive had a, uh, Washington Redskins trash can in his office. And he just says, Oh,

00:30:57.100 you're a Redskins fan. And like the entire interview was about the Washington Redskins and

00:31:01.700 how they've done poorly. And they're hoping that, you know, this season will turn it around.

00:31:06.540 And, uh, he ended up getting the job out, you know, beating out these other more qualified

00:31:11.000 individuals. And it came down to, he's like, I think the guy just, he liked me better.

00:31:15.000 Right. And what's so great about the way that he phrased that is I see that you're a Washington

00:31:20.640 Redskins fan. Cause sometimes people say, but I don't care about sports. So how am I going to be

00:31:25.040 able to know? Well, again, I'm going to go back to it. Nobody cares about what you care about.

00:31:28.360 People care about what they care about. So demonstrating that you're paying attention

00:31:33.400 is honestly really most of the time, all that anybody needs to find you charismatic.

00:31:41.040 Right. Yeah. I did. I remember when I was in law school, I had this interview for a summer

00:31:46.200 internship at a big firm here in downtown Tulsa. And, uh, the guy saw that I speak Spanish fluently

00:31:52.740 and he, we just had a conversation in Spanish. Like that was it. And just about where we were

00:31:57.880 from, like, where'd you learn Spanish? And I ended up getting the job. Um, but it was like,

00:32:03.500 I didn't, we didn't talk about the law at all because I think he saw that I was qualified. I

00:32:07.580 had the grades or whatever, but he just wanted to see, can this guy, can I get along with this

00:32:12.300 guy? Can I have fun with him? Yeah. Can I, again, is this someone I want to see at two o'clock

00:32:16.560 in the morning? All right. That's the thing. So yeah, remember you're going in there to see

00:32:21.120 if they want to spend two o'clock in the morning with you. So, um, so another common theme and this

00:32:27.280 is the last one we'll hit for today. Um, but just people dealing with perceived and with insecurities

00:32:34.340 about maybe a physical insecurity they might have, or perhaps just their background insecurity they

00:32:42.260 might have and how to deal with these. So one question was, is how can someone cope with a

00:32:48.360 stutter? Yes. Um, that was a question that I got. And, you know, it's so interesting that I

00:32:56.100 have a very close friend who is an author, um, and he has a stutter and yet he does book readings

00:33:04.680 all the time. And one of the ways that he handles it, that I think is so graceful is before he starts

00:33:12.200 to read, he just says, as you can hear, I have a stutter. I've had it since I was a child.

00:33:20.760 I just want you to know that, you know, it resolves itself. So if you wait patiently,

00:33:26.700 um, everything will move along, but it's just about, he brings it up and he lets them know how they can

00:33:35.060 participate in making things comfortable. So it's, it's, it's beautifully done. And at the end of the

00:33:42.820 day, again, everybody's, you know, anything that they might have around it just falls away because

00:33:47.580 he is just handled it. So that to me is the most graceful thing that I've seen anybody do. Um, it's,

00:33:55.900 you know, it comes back to one of the things I talk about a lot is if you can't fix it, feature it,

00:34:00.180 you know, if bring it up, don't pretend it's not happening. Um, it's happening. So let me talk

00:34:08.400 about it. Right. Okay. That's great. Yeah. Don't, don't try to, don't try to hide the elephant in

00:34:13.260 the room. Right. Basically. Okay. And that can go with like any other type of, um, you know,

00:34:19.000 perceived, uh, insecurity, right. Or that that's obvious to other people and just putting people at

00:34:24.660 ease to say, okay, here's this thing and there it is. And that's, that's that. Right. Okay.

00:34:31.080 Well, another, go ahead. They'll be comfortable with it. Right. Yeah. Right. Um, and so another,

00:34:37.240 uh, perceived, uh, physical problem or insecurity that people have is, um, what to do about feeling

00:34:43.020 too tall. And I guess the color to this would be like what to do if you feel like you're too short.

00:34:46.740 Yes. Um, so I think, you know, one of the two tall, um, it's just, you know, some people,

00:34:54.820 people struggle with this. Um, and I think it's just a matter of, if you feel like you're looming,

00:34:59.880 just take a half step back or, you know, is just to give people, you know, particularly if you're a

00:35:07.640 larger man, uh, to give, you know, women a little bit more personal space only because we are like, 0.92

00:35:15.760 we're smaller and it can be, you know, like it can feel a little bit threatening. So just that

00:35:23.540 half step back or to lean forward, to lean in, to shake your hand, and then you can come, you know,

00:35:28.780 quite, quite tall. Um, and, but that said, there's a school of thought and I, you know, I find tallness

00:35:38.200 incredibly reassuring and attractive. So I think that I didn't know in this instance,

00:35:45.000 if this was just something this gentleman was bringing to the party or if he had actually had

00:35:51.800 people, you know, comment on how tall he was. Um, so it is, it's that two way street of, I need you

00:35:58.920 to be comfortable with it. And if you sense others aren't just, you know, mention what's happening.

00:36:05.920 Wow. I feel like I'm really, you know, looming over the gathering. Um, so yes.

00:36:12.000 So yeah, if you show that you're comfortable with it, other people are going to be comfortable

00:36:15.440 with it as well. Yes. Um, what about like, if you feel like you're too short?

00:36:22.660 Again, I think it's one of these moments where you need to look at what you are bringing into the room.

00:36:27.940 Um, because it's possible that, you know, no one else is thinking about your height. Um, but if you walk

00:36:36.760 in with all of that stuff, I mean, and there's a reason why, um, they call it the Napoleonic complex.

00:36:43.460 If then now, again, everyone is, is, is having to make you feel comfortable.

00:36:49.780 So that's not fun for them. So it's a matter of doing the work yourself. Okay. I recognize that

00:36:57.260 often I feel like I'm far shorter than everybody else. Um, you know, again, for women, you can just

00:37:03.600 put on some higher heels, um, for men, it's harder. So I think it's just a matter of

00:37:10.220 working through that, you know, talking to people, you know, and feel comfortable mentioning it to

00:37:18.220 you about like, how do I read for you? Like when you first met me, was it the first thing that you

00:37:22.820 thought? Because often, you know, people, other people aren't as aware of it as you might be.

00:37:29.640 And frankly, most people aren't thinking as much about you as you are. So it can be really helpful

00:37:35.100 to, to say to people, you know, was it one of the first things you thought about with me?

00:37:40.160 Right. So yeah. Um, oftentimes people aren't even thinking about the thing that you think they're

00:37:44.460 thinking about when we're enemies. And you know, you're going, going back to that idea about it's

00:37:50.040 hard for men if you're shorter and like kind of altering your appearance, right? Women can put on 1.00

00:37:54.680 high heels. There's a great website that I'd recommend people go check out. It's called the

00:37:58.960 modest man. Um, it's written by this guy named Brock. Um, he has style tips and advice for shorter

00:38:04.640 men out there. And it's all about, uh, dressing in a way that it makes you appear taller and just,

00:38:10.740 you know, and also he just has a lot of great advice on dealing with some of those

00:38:13.860 insecurities that shorter men might have. What is it? What a great resource.

00:38:17.600 Yeah. It's called the modest man. So go check that out. If you are, if that's a,

00:38:22.020 if that's an insecurity or perceived problem you have. So the other, uh, I thought this was

00:38:28.200 kind of funny, the question, cause I'm sure this has happened because I've seen it happen like in

00:38:32.900 school on the first day of school when the teacher's going through the role. Um, and it's one of the

00:38:39.040 questions was, how can I put people at ease with my unpronounceable last name?

00:38:43.860 Right. Um, I think again, it's one of these moments where if you demonstrate that you're aware

00:38:50.880 that your last name is kind of kooky, um, you're going to put them at ease. So, you know,

00:38:59.740 it really depends on, on, on the people that you're with. Um, if it's a kind of a fun loving group

00:39:08.000 and you want to say, you know, my last name is blah, blah, blah, and maybe we can all say it

00:39:12.060 together, you know, that can work. But if these are people that like to feel smart or superior to

00:39:17.080 you, then they're not going to go for that one. So, um, I think in those moments, what I recommend

00:39:23.080 is, you know, I know my last name is a bear to pronounce. Um, and it's pronounced, say your name

00:39:29.840 and then say the origin of it is X. Because what you've done here is you've made them feel

00:39:37.780 comfortable because you've told them how to pronounce your last name. And by telling them

00:39:42.220 the origin, you've made them feel smarter. So now they can go out in the world and they can either

00:39:47.380 inform or reprimand depending on their personality, other people who don't know how to pronounce it.

00:39:53.580 And you, in the process, you've been charismatic because you made the person feel better about

00:39:58.920 themselves, which is the thing about charisma. Okay. That's some great advice there. Well,

00:40:04.240 well, Francis, uh, these are the big themes we hit today. Um, and some of the questions we got,

00:40:09.000 but where can people go and ask more questions so we can do this again sometime? Uh, my website is

00:40:15.660 my name, Francis Cole Jones.com. And Francis is with an E and not an I. Um, and

00:40:23.560 there is when you get there and ask a question button. Um, and as I mentioned, yeah, all the

00:40:29.200 questions roll to my phone. So please, you know, feel free to ask me about anything and everything.

00:40:35.940 Um, I am happy to handle work thing. Work things is really my, my wheelhouse. Um, so anything that's

00:40:44.100 going on with your boss or with your coworkers and job interviews, I love a good job interview question.

00:40:50.300 And, uh, just, you know, the day-to-day encounter can be fun.

00:40:54.780 Great. Well, Francis Cole Jones, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:40:58.160 Thank you.

00:40:59.320 My guest today was Francis Cole Jones. She's the author of the book, How to Wow. You can find that

00:41:03.400 on amazon.com. Also check out our website, franciscolejones.com and go to her, ask a question

00:41:09.580 tab where you can send her a question. It goes right to her, uh, her iPhone, ask her anything about

00:41:14.920 personal, you know, just your personal or professional, uh, presentation, whether you have a job interview

00:41:19.900 question, whether you have a question about small talk or how you should dress for certain

00:41:24.760 situations, ask it to her, and maybe we'll bring it up in a future episode.

00:41:39.520 Well, that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,

00:41:44.120 make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And if you enjoy this podcast,

00:41:48.460 I'd appreciate it if you give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher, as that helps spread the word about

00:41:52.420 the show. As always, I appreciate your continued support. And until next time, this is Brett McKay

00:41:56.720 telling you to stay manly.

The Art of Manliness - June 20, 2016

#211： Ask Frances - Difficult Conversations, Small Talk, and Charisma

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript