#211： Ask Frances - Difficult Conversations, Small Talk, and Charisma
Episode Stats
Summary
Frances Cole Jones is the author of the book, "How to Wow: Proven Strategies for Selling Your Brilliant Self in Any Situation" and is a frequent guest on The Art of Manliness Podcast. She makes her living coaching high-level executives and other media personalities on how to put their best foot forward in business and personal situations. In this episode, we discuss how to deal with difficult conversations in the workplace, dealing with power struggles, and dealing with awkwardness.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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So a few months ago, we had a guest on the show. Her name is Frances Cole Jones. She's
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the author of the book, How to Wow, Proven Strategies for Selling Your Brilliant Self
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in any situation. Great podcast. If you haven't listened to it yet, go check it out. It's
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podcast number 164. And Frances, she makes her living coaching high-level executives and
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other media personalities on how to put their best foot forward in business situations or
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if they're going to be on TV or on the radio. And we got a lot of great feedback on that
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show because she provided a lot of great tips on job interviews, negotiations, social skills,
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small talk, et cetera. She got into that. And at the end of the show, she invited our
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listeners to go to her website where she has a form where you can ask her any question when
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it comes to personal presentation in your professional or personal life. So how to make small talk, what
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should you wear to a job interview, how do you prepare for a job interview, things like
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that. And she was flooded with questions. And she emailed me back and said, I got a lot
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of great questions. And I thought it'd be, you know what, this would be a great idea for
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you bring Frances back onto the show to answer some of these questions that you all asked
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her. Because I figure if one guy had that question, there's probably, you know, two or
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three dozen other guys who have that same question. So we're going to make this a regular
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thing. She got a lot. We were only able to cover a few in this episode. I'm going to call
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it Ask Frances. And we're going to answer some of the questions you asked her several months
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ago. So today, the themes we hit on today are how to deal with difficult conversations or
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power struggles in the workplace, how to deal when you're having small talk and you feel like
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the conversation is lagging, or maybe you throw something out there and it just sort of bombs and
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like everyone just is silent. How do you deal with that situation? And then we also talk about how
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to deal with those things you might be self-conscious about that whenever you're interacting with
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others. So if you have a stutter, how do you handle that with grace and charm? What do you do if you
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feel like you're too tall? We also talk about how things, specific things you can do to be
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more charismatic in both your professional and personal life. Great episode. And again,
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after the show, check out the show notes. You can find that at aom.is slash jones. And you can also
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visit her site at franciscolejones.com where you can ask her another question. So we can bring that
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up the next time we do this. So without further ado, Frances Cole Jones on basically being your best
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self in whatever situation you find yourself in. Frances Cole Jones, welcome back to the show.
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So we had you on a few months ago to talk about your book, How to Wow. It's all about presentation
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in the workplace, your personal life. So you give your best possible impression. And at the end of
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the show, first off, the show is well received. We got a lot of great feedback from it. But at the end of
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the show, you invited our listeners to go to your website and you have a place where they can submit
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questions about any topic about presentation, charisma, body language, professional dress,
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et cetera. And you were just overwhelmed with the amount of questions and awesome questions that AOM
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podcast listeners had for you. And we thought it'd be fun. You and I discussed this to bring you back
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every now and then because you had so many questions about a wide variety of topics to bring
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you back and discuss some of these questions. I think if one or two of these listeners had that
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question, it's probably thousands or hundreds that have the same question. So that's what we're going
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to do. I think we'll have you on every quarter or so to discuss about how to wow and the specifics of
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it. Thank you. Yeah, no, I agree. I loved all the questions that I got and I really do. I put that
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proposal out all the time, but it's a testament to your listeners that they took me up on it
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because they did. And all the questions do roll to my phone and I do answer every single one of them.
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It might take me a little bit, but I do. And I just, I really, it's one of the great,
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great pleasures and privileges of what I do. That's great. So there was some common themes that
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came up and we'll hit on a few of them today and some of the specific questions about these common
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themes. And, uh, one common theme was charisma, um, and how to access charisma. But before we get
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to the specific questions about charisma, because the one question that happened over and over again
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was, uh, many people believe you're either born with charisma or you aren't. Um, is this true?
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No. And if, right, right. No. And then, so it's something you can cultivate it. And if so, how,
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but before we answer that question, can you, how do you define charisma? Like what are we shooting
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for? To me, charisma is that, that quality that makes you say, Ooh, I I'm so happy. I'm going to
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be saying, seeing so-and-so, or wow, I I'm really, you know, I'm completely engrossed in this conversation.
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Um, and it has nothing to do with looks and it has nothing to do with your bank account. And it's
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nothing to do with what you're wearing. It's just that quality of passion and curiosity. Um,
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it's kind of a mix of the two things. So, okay. If you're not born with it,
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um, how do you cultivate it? Well, there are a few things that you can do. I mean,
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one of the things, first of all, I just want to say, you know, cause both people do say,
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Oh, but I've been told I don't have any charisma. You don't have, maybe you don't have it. Maybe
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you haven't accessed it yet, but let's definitely say yet. Cause it is possible for everyone.
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Um, I think that the, you know, if you're doing a, if you're giving a presentation,
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the way to make yourself charismatic is to say to yourself, why do I have to tell this story?
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Like what about it do is so desperately important to me, but that needs to be added into why does my
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audience have to hear this? Why is hearing this going to make their life better? And what happens is,
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you know, very often when people do presentations, they're very good with the front end. They're
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very clear on why I have to tell this story, but they're less clear on why their audience has to
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hear it. That piece of really, truly, this will make your life better. And I'm going to tell you how.
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So there's that piece of it for presentations. And then I think it's always really good to all,
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to explain how did it transform my life? You know, because what that does is it gets you into a
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storytelling mode and storytelling is so much more interesting than what's known in my business
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as useless modifiers. Like it's just really great. It's amazing. It's incredible. Nothing happens in
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my brain. So how did it transform your life and how will it transform your listener's life?
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So those are two things to think about with presentations in terms of just one-on-one
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encounters. If you're feeling nervous about it, a great trick that I use a lot is imagine that your
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person you're meeting is a reporter and say to yourself, okay, what three words, if I were going
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to read an article about myself after this meeting, what three words would I want the reporter to use
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to describe me? Would I want that person to say that I'm curious or I'm passionate or I'm sympathetic
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or whatever it might be, but pick three attributes that you really want to embody while you're speaking
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to them. And what's nice about that is it really does give you a focus for staying present for the
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person you're speaking to. So yeah, I think you talked about in the last podcast you had is like
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part of charisma is just being like being fully present with the person.
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And listening and listening, you know, people listen kind of one of two ways. They listen to either
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interrupt or they listen to, you know, yes, to interject their own story. So they either want to negate
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or they want to turn the conversation back to them. But I think when you're really listening to
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somebody, asking them things like, you know, how did that make you feel? And wow, that sounds like
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it's something that was really hard for you. And the person you're talking to is like, oh my God,
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you're right. It was really hard for me. And all of a sudden, again, they leave that encounter and
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they're like, oh my goodness, so-and-so is so charismatic.
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Is there anything with your body language that you can convey that you are present? Because,
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you know, everyone talks about Bill Clinton. He has this sort of magic ability to make that one
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person in the room feel like they're the only person in the room.
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I think it comes back to eye communication. And, you know, which again is above and beyond eye
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contact, which is just, you know, kind of not at all the same thing, but it's really staying with
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that person and keeping, you know, because, you know, you've been at different parties and had
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different encounters. Well, the person is kind of talking to you and kind of looking over your
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shoulder to see if someone more interesting is walking in the room. So it is that person who just
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stays with you and really, you know, looks, you know, into your eyes. And one of the things that I
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talk about, there is a school of thought that says that when you really want to persuade somebody
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about something, then you look into their left eye as you're talking. That is the way that you can
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Well, you know, it can be people, you might have to, you know, roll with this a little bit, because
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some people think this is kooky. But, you know, there is a school of thought in that the right side of
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your body is fire and the left side of your body is water. This is the whole yin yang thing. It's
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an Ayurvedic thing. So if you're looking into somebody's left eye, you're looking into that
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softer, more fluid, more accepting and receptive part. The opposite is true. You know, when you're
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finished being persuasive and you just need them to do whatever it is that you need them to do,
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if you want to command somebody about something, look into their right eye. Now, you know, there are a
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lot of people who are listening to this and thinking, you know, she's completely off her rocker.
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You know, and I get that. And so I guess the only thing I can do is I can invite you to see if it works
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for you. Certainly, it's a trick that are a tool, let's say that I use all the time. And it also, it just is
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really helpful in terms of keeping you focused. If you're looking with both of your eyes at their
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left eye, you're going to stay with them. You're going to stay present in a very different way.
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Yeah, I can see that being useful in that way. Like just for that, just like it helps,
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it gives you something to focus on. Right. Instead of wandering around your eyes. But yeah,
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so we're gonna challenge AOM listeners right now, like check it out, go out and do the left eye thing
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and write Francis a note saying this is completely kooky, Francis, or hey, Francis, it worked. And
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yeah, tweet it out to me because I'd like to hear the responses as well. All right. So yeah,
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accessing charisma is like getting that passionate why and being able to articulate it.
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Passion and curiosity and just being fully and completely present with the person, whether
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you've just one on one or even when you're giving a presentation to a larger group.
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Yes. Okay. So there you go. Accessing charisma. So another theme that came up with the questions
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you received was how to have difficult conversations, um, both professionally and, uh, in your personal
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life, whether it's, uh, your children or spouse, et cetera. So one question was going to the personal
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life side is how do you stay out of the, he said, she said conversations that often pop up.
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Right. I think, I mean, again, this is personal life and with friends and in the workplace.
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First thing I want you to do, um, if it is, is once you finish a conversation,
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you know, write that person a note. I know it sounds crazy, but the minute you get it in an email and say,
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you know, as we discussed this afternoon, X is going to be happening. You know, I will be handling Y,
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you will be handling Z, whatever it might be. You've got to have a paper trail. It's critical,
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um, particularly in your workplace, because if you don't have that paper trail, then everybody,
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again, can go back to like, no, no, that's not how I remember it. Um, and that doesn't help you at all.
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The other thing that is really important with, uh, he said, she said is not to get into a feelings
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based conversation. Um, it really needs to be a fact based conversation. So if someone's, you know,
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if you're talking to somebody, but when you do that, I feel like this is whatever it might be.
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Um, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't want any part of that. Um, at that point,
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what I recommend you say is I think the most important piece for me right now is to get clarity
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on your expectations, expectations of me. You're not having, you know, you want no part of how they
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feel about anybody else. It's just, what does this person expect from you in this moment that you can
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now achieve? Um, the other thing, you know, and again, not so much, um, in a one-on-one encounter,
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but if you do are in a workplace situation with your boss, um, or at a lunch or anything like that,
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the minute that you take out a notebook and you start writing down what people are saying,
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people get very focused on, look, this is actually what I want to say rather than meandering down some
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kind of crazy feelings based, um, emotional turmoil situation. So a notebook is super useful.
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Um, and again, one of the other places that I highly recommend having your notebook in hand
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is anytime you're dealing with a doctor or a doctor's appointment for yourself or anyone else,
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because it's so very easy to, you know, be overwhelmed with emotion and not be listening
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and not be present. So just make sure you have that. Okay. And I mean, let's, let's say you're
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doing a phone call and you want to, uh, make the person aware. I think you don't want to say I'm
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recording this conversation, uh, cause that just like puts them, right. You know, like they get
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defensive, but you still want to let them understand that you're going to follow up with them. Right.
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So you can avoid those. Like how, what would be sort of a clean way of doing that?
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A lot of it's going to come down to tone. So you have to, in the most upbeat way imaginable, say,
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I love what you're saying. And I think it's so important. So what I'm going to do is I'm going
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to take notes while we're talking and then I'm going to type up my understanding of what we
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discussed. And I'm going to send that on over to you. Perfect. I like that. So you can avoid that
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whole thing. Well, you said this on the phone and then it also takes out, you know, uh, reduces the
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risk of being like misunderstanding that can happen over the telephone. Right. Someone says
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something with a tone and it might not actually mean what they, the tone conveyed. Um, so it allows
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them to correct themselves or clarify. Yeah. And people, again, people do the minute you say,
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you know, I just, I'm going to be, I'm going, it's not may I, you're not asking permission.
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I'm going to be taking some notes while we talk because this is really important. You want to give
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them the because behind why you're doing it? Um, you know, not because I don't trust you or because
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or because you always say one thing and do another, because this is so important. I want to be,
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I'm going to be taking some notes while we're talking. Awesome. Well, let's say, um, you have this
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conversation and there's some misunderstanding and you need to go back and clean up that, that
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misunderstood conversation. So how do you double back to an earlier conversation that you might
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have had and say, look, I thought there was some static here. Uh, can we revisit this without
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it being awkward, I guess? I mean, I think that you want to always say, you know, I feel like
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take the onus on yourself. I feel like I, um, there was some misunderstanding around our earlier
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conversation. I'm just not completely clear. So what I'd like to do is double back into it and
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make sure that I, again, really understand your expectations of me and, and, and also know that
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you have clarity on what I'm going to be doing going forward. But yeah, but always take the onus
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for any kind of mishmash on yourself. Yeah. Don't say, well, you were unclear. Yeah. That always
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sound. That ends poorly. Right. So I think one of the things that makes difficult conversations
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difficult is the emotion that's in the situation or perceived emotion that's in the situation.
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Because I often, I found with difficult conversations, like I'm the one who's thinking that
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there's a lot of emotion and tension there. And the other person like is completely oblivious
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to that tension or emotion. Uh, so what are some good ways of taking out the, the emotion of
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difficult conversations? I think what usually happens is that people get really focused on
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what they want and they either don't articulate or you just don't happen to know the why behind why
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they want it. Cause that, so what you really need to do is get underneath the what. So, and there
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are a few ways to do that. So someone's like, I have to do this on this day. Um, okay. You know,
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what I'd like to do is I'd like to, you know, I'd like to hear a little bit more important to you.
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Um, so, I mean, the few questions that I always ask in that moment is, you know, can we unpack that
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a little bit? Can you tell me a little bit more about why this is important? Because I want to make
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sure I understand. Um, or can we dig underneath this? You know, I can hear that it's important.
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Um, I've taken that in, but I really want to learn a little bit more about why it's important.
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Um, because what that does is that sometimes underneath the demand, the what, uh, people
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actually feel much more similarly than you might imagine. So it's getting underneath that initial,
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like kind of the power struggle or the demand for something. Um, the other thing that I think
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is, can be really helpful in those moments is to say, you know, I need this or this needs to happen.
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Okay. Well, what would that look like for you? Because you can think that, you know, like, you know,
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I mean, it's such a silly example, but you know, someone can say, I need you to do the laundry.
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Okay. So to one person, that means, you know, you separate the lights and the darks and you put it
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on cold or whatever it might be. And the other person was like, I'm just getting it done. I'm
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heaving everything in the washing machine. Um, so people end up with very different results in those
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moments. So asking, what was it going to look like for you? Or, you know, having this happen,
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what that, what is this going to provide for you? Because sometimes when we know what it's going to
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provide for somebody, we're like, Oh, okay. I get, I get it, but it's important. You don't seem
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as unreasonable anymore. So those are a couple of good questions.
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And then what do you do after you get those answers? Let's say you, you've, you know,
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you ask the why and you understand where they're coming from, but still you're like,
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but still like, I, I, I can't jive with that. It's just like, cause there's a,
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there's competing interest or just not congruent. Um, how do you,
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I think again, you did better saying to them, like I do, I get why this is important to you.
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And I understand your rationale, the rationale for your request. But what I'm going to do is I'm
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going to ask you to, you know, show me the same courtesy and understand why I'm coming at it from
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the place that I'm coming at it and why this, you know, this is as important to me. Um, because again,
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sometimes they haven't even begun to tune in to the why behind why you're making the quest and,
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or maybe you didn't spell it out that clearly. Okay. So that makes sense. Um, so another common
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theme was, uh, social anxiety, um, just being uncomfortable in social situations, whether it's
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one-on-one conversation that say at a party or on a date or doing a job interview. Um, cause I mean,
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that's a social situation that, that can produce a peak anxiety cause you're on the spotlight. Um,
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so let's talk about just general conversation. Um, one, one question an AOM listener, uh,
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asked you, or what are three ways to stay in a conversation you feel is flagging?
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Well, there are a couple of different things that I always like to do. I think that you can
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always say, you know, I'd love to get your opinion on this. Um, because I don't know anybody who
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doesn't love to get their, give their opinion about something. So if, you know, if you feel
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like a conversation is flagging, say, you know, this has been so interesting so far, but I really,
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I'd like to, I'd like to little know a little bit more. I'd like to get your opinion. Um, the other
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thing is, is that when they're in the middle of their story, um, if you just keep saying, frankly,
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and then what happened and then what happened, or the other, my favorite is, can you tell me more
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about that? You know, because people will follow that lead in an almost, it's almost, it's, it's,
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it's a fascinating thing to do. Um, what I hear more often than that though, is that people will say,
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Oh my God, you know, this morning I was having such a nervous breakdown about blah, blah, blah.
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And the person listening will be like, Oh my God, me too. I was having the worst morning. Okay. Well,
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this is not a conversation. So, wow. Can you tell me more about that? And then what happened?
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Um, what did that look like? And all of those kinds of things, just leave them on a little bit
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and really try and get into some of the nitty gritty will be more interesting for you.
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Yeah. And any other ways? I mean, that's, I like, I think it's a great one. Um, let's say like,
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it's feeling like, how do you interject, like, besides asking what's your opinion? Like,
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let's say you want to bring up a new topic. How do you, what's a good way of transitioning
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to a new topic? Well, I think that you want to pick a topic that hopefully again is as interesting
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to them as it is to you. Um, so, I mean, I understand it's always way more fun to talk
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about ourselves. I get that, but it doesn't make for a great conversation. So I think that
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it's one of those moments that you can say, you know, tell me a little bit about what you
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do, you know, in your free time. Um, because, you know, here's some of the things I like to
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do, but I'd love to learn more about, you know, you look like you're very fit. Um, you
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obviously work at whatever that might be. What? So it's just, it's really take again, taking
00:24:12.000
clues from where you are, how you know them, who introduced the two of you. That's always
00:24:18.160
like when people are introducing, you know, we are being introduced to someone. Um, so how
00:24:23.080
you, or if you meet people at a party, so how do you know, how do you know the host? I promise
00:24:28.560
you they will go on for half an hour about the very first time they met.
00:24:32.140
Yeah. No. And I love the question, like what you do in your free time, because, you know,
00:24:36.840
typically the, the go-to thing that I go to is like, so what do you do? And by that, I
00:24:40.540
mean, like, what do you do for a living? And it's kind of boring. I think a lot of people
00:24:45.400
when they're at a party, they're like, okay, last thing I want to talk about is work. Um,
00:24:49.680
but I love that question. Like, what do you do in your free time? Right. That's a great
00:24:52.120
one. Very cool. All right. So, so there's some ways to keep the conversation going is, uh, ask
00:24:57.940
their opinion on something and then keep asking and then what, and then what, and then ask
00:25:02.460
them questions about how they might know the host or what they do in the free time.
00:25:06.460
Right. And the other thing that I think of just another note about introduction, introducing
00:25:11.120
people to each other, because I don't know if you've ever had this experience, but very
00:25:15.540
often I'll, I'll, I'll know someone who is introducing me to someone else and they'll
00:25:20.080
say, Oh my God, Francis, this is Brett. You're going to love him. All right. I don't,
00:25:25.940
go with that. Like, I'm sure I will love you, but don't, you know, that's tough. Um, cause
00:25:35.760
it sets the two people up with a lot of pressure for nothing. Um, so again, I think it's always
00:25:42.940
really helpful if you're introducing people to each other to say, you know, this is so
00:25:47.060
and so, this is so, so, and this is why I think the two of you are going to have a great
00:25:50.940
time talking. So what do you do? You're in a conversation with someone and you put
00:25:56.280
out a thought, uh, a fact or a conversation starter that goes over like a lead balloon.
00:26:03.140
I think we've all had that happen. We throw something out there and they're just sort
00:26:05.620
of like, man, it's like the uncomfortable silence. So what, what do you do in those
00:26:11.340
I think the most important thing is to keep a sense of humor about it because what you
00:26:16.940
don't want to do is end up a, you know, killing the conversation and then be making other people
00:26:26.540
do the cleanup for you. So I think it's one of these moments that you can say, Oh, you
00:26:32.240
know what? I guess that really wasn't as interesting as I thought it was going to be. Um, which is
00:26:38.720
very different than saying, well, I guess I'm the only one who finds that interesting.
00:26:44.300
Okay. Now you've alienated everybody. Um, so, you know, or you could say, wow, you know,
00:26:52.000
now that I'm, I heard that out loud, it's really not as funny as it was when it was inside my brain.
00:26:57.140
Um, again, which is, it's a lighthearted way of letting everybody off the hook.
00:27:03.440
Gotcha. So you use some self-deprecating humor a bit, have some humility. Okay. Um,
00:27:08.680
so going back to job interviews, um, one listener asked, how can people cope with anxiety in job
00:27:15.280
interviews? One of the things, and it sounds incredibly pedantic, but one of the things I
00:27:21.220
want everybody to do is to pick three small talk topics before an interview, because I mean,
00:27:28.920
there are, there are all these, you know, we prepare for the, I hope we prepare,
00:27:33.840
please prepare for the hard questions. Um, but what we don't, you know, what we don't prepare
00:27:39.860
for is that, you know, space of time while you're walking down the hall with somebody or while we've
00:27:46.680
just had a great interview and you're standing by the elevator waiting and you pick a topic out of
00:27:52.940
thin air and the whole thing blows up in your face. So I really want you to have three small talk
00:27:59.000
topics in your back pocket, um, before any kind of interview. And, uh, they can be as small as well.
00:28:08.860
Are there any restaurants nearby that you would recommend? You know, that kind of thing.
00:28:13.880
Right. You want, you want to stay away from things like politics probably.
00:28:17.220
Yeah. And, and, and don't, I mean, if they've hung their diploma, um, on the wall of their office,
00:28:22.660
by all means, feel free to comment on that. But I do, I don't recommend getting anywhere near like
00:28:29.120
family photos or anything because people don't tend to update those as frequently and, or they might've
00:28:36.560
had a terrible fight with their spouse that morning or with their kid. And then they like tell you the
00:28:43.080
entire story. And then they're horrified afterward that they overshared. Okay. So yeah, stay away
00:28:48.760
from the family. Stay away from the family, but sort of keep it on pleasantries, restaurant, food,
00:28:54.920
sports, maybe movies. Okay. Three things there. Okay. That'll help with the anxiety. I mean,
00:29:01.520
anything else besides that? I mean, is there any things right before you go into the interview? Is
00:29:05.780
there any sort of, I don't know, mindset things you can do to help prepare yourself to kind of take off
00:29:11.140
the edge? I mean, I think that there's, I want you to have done an obscene amount of research ahead
00:29:17.940
of time, not in a creepy way. Um, you know, not like, wow, I was looking at the pictures of you
00:29:22.840
in seventh grade. That's going to, you know, depress everybody and make you seem like a stalker. Um,
00:29:27.800
but to say, you know, you went to X school, that is incredibly impressive. I saw that. Or wow,
00:29:34.620
I really, I saw that your company does, you know, the, the, this philanthropic outreach. And I was so
00:29:39.880
impressed by that. So again, it's just, it's really letting them know that you have done more
00:29:47.160
than prepared to talk about yourself. It's demonstrating that you're prepared to talk
00:29:52.840
about them. Right. Cause yeah, a lot of part of the job interview, it's not so much to suss out
00:29:57.840
your qualifications. They usually do that through the resume. They can see your GPA, your curriculum
00:30:01.820
vitae. I just want to know, like, are they going to get along with you? They do. When they, cause
00:30:06.480
they're going to spend like, cause you, you spend most of your time, uh, with the people
00:30:10.020
you work with. I mean, you probably spend more time with them than your family. Um,
00:30:13.760
so they want to make sure. Yeah. For those of you who've like, I don't know if anybody's
00:30:17.060
read the Tina Fey book, bossy pounds, but one of the things she, when she was talking about
00:30:20.620
being the head writer at Saturday night life, one of the things they talked about is, is this
00:30:24.820
somebody that I want to see in the break room at three o'clock in the morning? Cause we're
00:30:28.400
going to be there together. Right. So, so yeah, it's, it's about, if you're gonna get along,
00:30:33.140
I remember I read, I was reading this book by this one guy, he was interviewing for a job at
00:30:37.200
like a high, you know, high end, um, investment firm. And there were a ton of other like qualified
00:30:42.880
people. Like it was hyper competitive. Um, but he happened to see that the interviewing manager
00:30:49.320
or executive had a, uh, Washington Redskins trash can in his office. And he just says, Oh,
00:30:57.100
you're a Redskins fan. And like the entire interview was about the Washington Redskins and
00:31:01.700
how they've done poorly. And they're hoping that, you know, this season will turn it around.
00:31:06.540
And, uh, he ended up getting the job out, you know, beating out these other more qualified
00:31:11.000
individuals. And it came down to, he's like, I think the guy just, he liked me better.
00:31:15.000
Right. And what's so great about the way that he phrased that is I see that you're a Washington
00:31:20.640
Redskins fan. Cause sometimes people say, but I don't care about sports. So how am I going to be
00:31:25.040
able to know? Well, again, I'm going to go back to it. Nobody cares about what you care about.
00:31:28.360
People care about what they care about. So demonstrating that you're paying attention
00:31:33.400
is honestly really most of the time, all that anybody needs to find you charismatic.
00:31:41.040
Right. Yeah. I did. I remember when I was in law school, I had this interview for a summer
00:31:46.200
internship at a big firm here in downtown Tulsa. And, uh, the guy saw that I speak Spanish fluently
00:31:52.740
and he, we just had a conversation in Spanish. Like that was it. And just about where we were
00:31:57.880
from, like, where'd you learn Spanish? And I ended up getting the job. Um, but it was like,
00:32:03.500
I didn't, we didn't talk about the law at all because I think he saw that I was qualified. I
00:32:07.580
had the grades or whatever, but he just wanted to see, can this guy, can I get along with this
00:32:12.300
guy? Can I have fun with him? Yeah. Can I, again, is this someone I want to see at two o'clock
00:32:16.560
in the morning? All right. That's the thing. So yeah, remember you're going in there to see
00:32:21.120
if they want to spend two o'clock in the morning with you. So, um, so another common theme and this
00:32:27.280
is the last one we'll hit for today. Um, but just people dealing with perceived and with insecurities
00:32:34.340
about maybe a physical insecurity they might have, or perhaps just their background insecurity they
00:32:42.260
might have and how to deal with these. So one question was, is how can someone cope with a
00:32:48.360
stutter? Yes. Um, that was a question that I got. And, you know, it's so interesting that I
00:32:56.100
have a very close friend who is an author, um, and he has a stutter and yet he does book readings
00:33:04.680
all the time. And one of the ways that he handles it, that I think is so graceful is before he starts
00:33:12.200
to read, he just says, as you can hear, I have a stutter. I've had it since I was a child.
00:33:20.760
I just want you to know that, you know, it resolves itself. So if you wait patiently,
00:33:26.700
um, everything will move along, but it's just about, he brings it up and he lets them know how they can
00:33:35.060
participate in making things comfortable. So it's, it's, it's beautifully done. And at the end of the
00:33:42.820
day, again, everybody's, you know, anything that they might have around it just falls away because
00:33:47.580
he is just handled it. So that to me is the most graceful thing that I've seen anybody do. Um, it's,
00:33:55.900
you know, it comes back to one of the things I talk about a lot is if you can't fix it, feature it,
00:34:00.180
you know, if bring it up, don't pretend it's not happening. Um, it's happening. So let me talk
00:34:08.400
about it. Right. Okay. That's great. Yeah. Don't, don't try to, don't try to hide the elephant in
00:34:13.260
the room. Right. Basically. Okay. And that can go with like any other type of, um, you know,
00:34:19.000
perceived, uh, insecurity, right. Or that that's obvious to other people and just putting people at
00:34:24.660
ease to say, okay, here's this thing and there it is. And that's, that's that. Right. Okay.
00:34:31.080
Well, another, go ahead. They'll be comfortable with it. Right. Yeah. Right. Um, and so another,
00:34:37.240
uh, perceived, uh, physical problem or insecurity that people have is, um, what to do about feeling
00:34:43.020
too tall. And I guess the color to this would be like what to do if you feel like you're too short.
00:34:46.740
Yes. Um, so I think, you know, one of the two tall, um, it's just, you know, some people,
00:34:54.820
people struggle with this. Um, and I think it's just a matter of, if you feel like you're looming,
00:34:59.880
just take a half step back or, you know, is just to give people, you know, particularly if you're a
00:35:07.640
larger man, uh, to give, you know, women a little bit more personal space only because we are like,
00:35:15.760
we're smaller and it can be, you know, like it can feel a little bit threatening. So just that
00:35:23.540
half step back or to lean forward, to lean in, to shake your hand, and then you can come, you know,
00:35:28.780
quite, quite tall. Um, and, but that said, there's a school of thought and I, you know, I find tallness
00:35:38.200
incredibly reassuring and attractive. So I think that I didn't know in this instance,
00:35:45.000
if this was just something this gentleman was bringing to the party or if he had actually had
00:35:51.800
people, you know, comment on how tall he was. Um, so it is, it's that two way street of, I need you
00:35:58.920
to be comfortable with it. And if you sense others aren't just, you know, mention what's happening.
00:36:05.920
Wow. I feel like I'm really, you know, looming over the gathering. Um, so yes.
00:36:12.000
So yeah, if you show that you're comfortable with it, other people are going to be comfortable
00:36:15.440
with it as well. Yes. Um, what about like, if you feel like you're too short?
00:36:22.660
Again, I think it's one of these moments where you need to look at what you are bringing into the room.
00:36:27.940
Um, because it's possible that, you know, no one else is thinking about your height. Um, but if you walk
00:36:36.760
in with all of that stuff, I mean, and there's a reason why, um, they call it the Napoleonic complex.
00:36:43.460
If then now, again, everyone is, is, is having to make you feel comfortable.
00:36:49.780
So that's not fun for them. So it's a matter of doing the work yourself. Okay. I recognize that
00:36:57.260
often I feel like I'm far shorter than everybody else. Um, you know, again, for women, you can just
00:37:03.600
put on some higher heels, um, for men, it's harder. So I think it's just a matter of
00:37:10.220
working through that, you know, talking to people, you know, and feel comfortable mentioning it to
00:37:18.220
you about like, how do I read for you? Like when you first met me, was it the first thing that you
00:37:22.820
thought? Because often, you know, people, other people aren't as aware of it as you might be.
00:37:29.640
And frankly, most people aren't thinking as much about you as you are. So it can be really helpful
00:37:35.100
to, to say to people, you know, was it one of the first things you thought about with me?
00:37:40.160
Right. So yeah. Um, oftentimes people aren't even thinking about the thing that you think they're
00:37:44.460
thinking about when we're enemies. And you know, you're going, going back to that idea about it's
00:37:50.040
hard for men if you're shorter and like kind of altering your appearance, right? Women can put on
00:37:54.680
high heels. There's a great website that I'd recommend people go check out. It's called the
00:37:58.960
modest man. Um, it's written by this guy named Brock. Um, he has style tips and advice for shorter
00:38:04.640
men out there. And it's all about, uh, dressing in a way that it makes you appear taller and just,
00:38:10.740
you know, and also he just has a lot of great advice on dealing with some of those
00:38:13.860
insecurities that shorter men might have. What is it? What a great resource.
00:38:17.600
Yeah. It's called the modest man. So go check that out. If you are, if that's a,
00:38:22.020
if that's an insecurity or perceived problem you have. So the other, uh, I thought this was
00:38:28.200
kind of funny, the question, cause I'm sure this has happened because I've seen it happen like in
00:38:32.900
school on the first day of school when the teacher's going through the role. Um, and it's one of the
00:38:39.040
questions was, how can I put people at ease with my unpronounceable last name?
00:38:43.860
Right. Um, I think again, it's one of these moments where if you demonstrate that you're aware
00:38:50.880
that your last name is kind of kooky, um, you're going to put them at ease. So, you know,
00:38:59.740
it really depends on, on, on the people that you're with. Um, if it's a kind of a fun loving group
00:39:08.000
and you want to say, you know, my last name is blah, blah, blah, and maybe we can all say it
00:39:12.060
together, you know, that can work. But if these are people that like to feel smart or superior to
00:39:17.080
you, then they're not going to go for that one. So, um, I think in those moments, what I recommend
00:39:23.080
is, you know, I know my last name is a bear to pronounce. Um, and it's pronounced, say your name
00:39:29.840
and then say the origin of it is X. Because what you've done here is you've made them feel
00:39:37.780
comfortable because you've told them how to pronounce your last name. And by telling them
00:39:42.220
the origin, you've made them feel smarter. So now they can go out in the world and they can either
00:39:47.380
inform or reprimand depending on their personality, other people who don't know how to pronounce it.
00:39:53.580
And you, in the process, you've been charismatic because you made the person feel better about
00:39:58.920
themselves, which is the thing about charisma. Okay. That's some great advice there. Well,
00:40:04.240
well, Francis, uh, these are the big themes we hit today. Um, and some of the questions we got,
00:40:09.000
but where can people go and ask more questions so we can do this again sometime? Uh, my website is
00:40:15.660
my name, Francis Cole Jones.com. And Francis is with an E and not an I. Um, and
00:40:23.560
there is when you get there and ask a question button. Um, and as I mentioned, yeah, all the
00:40:29.200
questions roll to my phone. So please, you know, feel free to ask me about anything and everything.
00:40:35.940
Um, I am happy to handle work thing. Work things is really my, my wheelhouse. Um, so anything that's
00:40:44.100
going on with your boss or with your coworkers and job interviews, I love a good job interview question.
00:40:50.300
And, uh, just, you know, the day-to-day encounter can be fun.
00:40:54.780
Great. Well, Francis Cole Jones, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.
00:40:59.320
My guest today was Francis Cole Jones. She's the author of the book, How to Wow. You can find that
00:41:03.400
on amazon.com. Also check out our website, franciscolejones.com and go to her, ask a question
00:41:09.580
tab where you can send her a question. It goes right to her, uh, her iPhone, ask her anything about
00:41:14.920
personal, you know, just your personal or professional, uh, presentation, whether you have a job interview
00:41:19.900
question, whether you have a question about small talk or how you should dress for certain
00:41:24.760
situations, ask it to her, and maybe we'll bring it up in a future episode.
00:41:39.520
Well, that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,
00:41:44.120
make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And if you enjoy this podcast,
00:41:48.460
I'd appreciate it if you give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher, as that helps spread the word about
00:41:52.420
the show. As always, I appreciate your continued support. And until next time, this is Brett McKay