The Art of Manliness - #218： The Lost Arts of Modern Civilization

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast hosting letter

00:00:20.060 writing and going out on real dates are often seen as old-fashioned practices that no longer

00:00:24.440 needed in an age when guests can book an airbnb instead of crashing at your pad you can communicate

00:00:29.420 instantaneously via email or text or your next girlfriend is just a tinder swipe away but my

00:00:35.100 guest today argues that the refinement of civilization requires that we still continue

00:00:38.380 these supposedly old-fashioned practices his name is mitchell kalpakian and he's the author of the

00:00:43.080 lost arts of civilization and today on the show we discuss what homer the guy with the iliad and

00:00:48.080 the odyssey can teach us about being a good host why writing letters by hand will always beat email

00:00:52.860 and why you might consider resurrecting the forgotten art of courtship great podcast after the show check

00:00:59.180 out the show notes at aom.is civilization where you can find links to resources we mentioned

00:01:05.480 throughout the show so you can delve deeper into this topic

00:01:07.640 mitchell kalpakian welcome to the show well thank you very much uh i appreciate the invitation to talk

00:01:19.120 about subjects that are on my mind subjects that appear in my teaching and subjects that i write about

00:01:26.920 because i find them very important uh very timely and uh uh very very rich in wisdom well i agree so

00:01:39.180 you've written um several books um but the one book that i came across of yours that i'd like to focus on

00:01:44.800 today uh is the uh the book the lost arts of modern civilization sure and in this book you make the case

00:01:54.000 for reviving what a lot of people today would think of as old-fashioned practices like yes writing

00:02:01.940 letters by hand um or courtship um sure so i'm curious why what do you think people stand to benefit

00:02:10.440 and by people and since this is the art of manliness podcast particularly men what do they stand from

00:02:14.940 benefit to benefit from taking part in these um antiquated practices in our modern technological age

00:02:21.520 well yeah yes well that's a very probing question and a very practical question

00:02:28.960 uh first of all uh i think the word antiquated perhaps is a little extreme and a little exaggerated

00:02:38.500 uh these are practices that are familiar to the many of us in my generation i'm in my 70s

00:02:47.960 people in their 60s perhaps 50s can identify with all of these things uh uh but you're quite right

00:02:57.980 these have become somewhat obsolescent less customary uh and they have been more or less relegated to the

00:03:06.480 past as old-fashioned or as you said antiquated uh but they're not you know some things some things

00:03:16.900 that are old are worth preserving and cherishing because they are timeless and they are very human

00:03:26.040 they're very personal they're very enriching so uh things like all those topics in the book the lost

00:03:36.140 arts of modern civilization uh are things that will beautify and enrich human beings lives

00:03:45.640 in other words uh in other words uh i can sense myself because i lived i've lived in both worlds i've lived

00:03:56.080 in the pre-technological revolution the digital revolution and i now live in the post-digital

00:04:04.100 technological age and i i see this a profound difference uh and the profound difference is that

00:04:13.800 the world that i try to recover in the lost arts modern civilization is far more personal far more

00:04:23.300 joy-filled uh it's somehow makes life so much more enjoyable and delightful uh that it's worth

00:04:32.820 remembering and recalling it's it shouldn't just be put on the shelf or put in the museum

00:04:38.320 or just be considered quaint uh so that's my that's my apologia my defense of those uh old-fashioned

00:04:49.660 customs or antiquated ideas they're not antiquated some things like like the habit of reading for

00:04:56.260 example i mean how can that ever become antiquated you see that can't become antiquated

00:05:02.660 uh i know people are absorbed by video culture but that that can't possibly translate into the

00:05:09.860 elimination of the importance and value of reading so um i think all men can benefit from these uh lost

00:05:20.080 arts uh all human beings can benefit all men can benefit uh for example uh you take for example uh you

00:05:30.940 could take any one of those lost arts like the the lost art of hospitality for example uh i have found

00:05:38.720 uh my whole my whole history of my life uh from the time i was a child through my married life

00:05:46.180 my now in my uh 70s i have found that people appreciate an invitation for dinner for a social occasion

00:05:58.740 or a party they they uh uh men more than i mean women more than men uh men somehow have to be coaxed

00:06:09.160 coerced or made to feel guilty but many men do relish these occasions as much as women and children

00:06:18.860 why uh because it enlarges people's worlds we all have circles of family members we have

00:06:28.740 circles of friendships but part of the pleasure of life is to expand our relationships to enjoy more

00:06:37.740 people to extend our friendships uh and you never know what will happen that is you could have one

00:06:45.920 conversation you could learn one thing you could receive one introduction on these social events

00:06:53.920 that could somehow make a difference in your life uh why should we limit our worlds only to a

00:07:02.100 a limited circle or a clique or just you know a few people uh that are in our circle when this

00:07:11.420 there is a larger world for us to enjoy and there's so much to for us to give and receive

00:07:18.500 it's mutual you know we we might contribute something say something uh someone might know uh learn that we

00:07:25.240 have a favorite hobby or a particular interest that someone else also enjoys and something happens

00:07:31.560 uh so this is a way of somehow gaining perspective in other words life is more than work you know or

00:07:41.600 life is more than money life is more than paying bills and purchasing things there's a human dimension

00:07:47.600 to life that we cannot lose sight of you see we are meant human beings are meant by nature

00:07:54.720 uh to somehow uh work to live not live to work but we live we we work to live and we work to play

00:08:06.280 we work to enjoy things and uh uh these lost arts are sources of true enjoyment you don't have to depend

00:08:16.140 on an entertainment industry you don't have to depend on a mobile device this is these are all natural

00:08:24.420 human traditional sources of enjoyment that are filled with mirth and people this people testify to this

00:08:34.040 and uh people uh people recognize that these are inherently good things to pursue and to do

00:08:41.340 and going back to hospitality i mean throughout the the your book um you look to uh great thinkers great

00:08:49.660 literature to um i guess suss out or make your you know kind of make your case build your case right

00:08:56.300 i thought it was interesting with the lost art of hospitality you look to the homeric poems um as

00:09:02.120 as a treatise on hospitality because i think it's interesting for a lot of men they think oh

00:09:05.600 you know the iliad odysseus it's all about achilles rage black blood spewing out of bodies

00:09:13.400 and these great epic battles sure so but what can the homeric epics teach us about hospitality

00:09:19.200 well yes uh uh uh uh even though this is a story about the trojan war which is always in the

00:09:29.720 background um there are in both the iliad and the odyssey these uh there are scenes of hospitality

00:09:41.240 in the iliad there's a very very famous scene uh uh called funeral games of patroclus which is an

00:09:51.020 episode that is in contrast to war that is the greeks are in a state of leisure they're competing for fun

00:09:59.240 they're not fighting uh for glory there's a it's a kind of interlude and homer wants us to see

00:10:06.440 in both the iliad and the odyssey that men have two sides they have a masculine side of course

00:10:13.360 that somehow is demanded of them in fighting evil and going to war and defending their families

00:10:23.080 uh and uh fighting uh fighting whatever difficulties confront them but all of homer's heroes have a

00:10:37.780 mother and a father and they have a wife and they have children and homer reminds us that that is

00:10:45.460 really the center of their life it's really the center of their life now in the odyssey if you ever

00:10:53.300 go you know read the odyssey uh carefully you will notice there are several scenes of hospitality i can't

00:11:02.420 think of any book that spends as much time on the rituals of hospitality that is right at the beginning

00:11:10.180 of the book one of the gods comes in disguise and is received with hospitality by audysius's son

00:11:17.480 and later on uh the son telemachus goes on the journey to find news about his father is he living or is he

00:11:26.020 dead and he's welcomed by the hospitality of menelaus uh and welcomed uh by the hospitality

00:11:38.020 of uh another one of the companions of audysius uh uh in the trojan war and and uh so all through the

00:11:51.560 book he went uh when audysius finally comes home the very first scene that portrays audysius when he's

00:11:59.100 arrived home is that he's received with hospitality by not a king or queen but a swine herd in other words

00:12:06.900 hospitality is an ingrained habit of life it isn't just kings nobles the wealthy all human beings

00:12:18.440 practice hospitality it is considered to be sacred to the gods to violate the rituals and obligations of

00:12:30.080 hospitality hospitality is an offense against zeus in other words this is the most human of all virtues all

00:12:40.340 human beings are travelers all human beings are strangers all human beings are find times in their

00:12:49.060 life where they depend upon the kindness of other human beings therefore they are obligated to practice

00:12:58.460 this virtue that is so essential for a human life uh now the the custom of hospitality in homer also

00:13:08.820 is just a beautiful ritual in other words uh it's a it's a very special occasion uh and it involves

00:13:20.100 different stages that is the travelers first of all welcomed bathed cleansed 0.96

00:13:27.400 given clean garments given a good night's sleep in comfortable uh in a with comfortable blankets

00:13:36.680 in one place and then the following day no and then uh so uh that that the first he's cleansed

00:13:45.840 then he's feasted you know uh and all of the the dainties the mellow wine the roasted meat

00:13:53.740 in great abundance uh in great abundance is uh is offered to the guest uh so first of all the needs of the

00:14:03.020 body are met but that's not enough you see the next day the next day the the traveler uh and the guest is

00:14:11.960 uh uh welcomed for his conversation where in other words where does he come from this is an occasion

00:14:21.080 for learning this is an opportunity to broaden the mind every traveler comes with his own background

00:14:27.360 comes with his own experience and so they spend time in conversation delightful conversation

00:14:34.740 real exchange uh uh audacious when he's the guest tells all these episodes and stories

00:14:44.300 uh from his experience of from his experience in the trojan war and that's that's all that's still not the

00:14:51.540 end of the ritual hospitality then uh all the guests hear the beautiful music of the bard playing the liar

00:15:01.440 and then they are uh uh uh uh entertained by uh by by by by dancers who are so so practiced and skillful

00:15:17.440 in this particular art and then finally uh before the ritual hospitality is completed uh audacious is is asked to

00:15:28.600 participate in the olympic games athletic competitions uh and so you see that the whole whole idea here is

00:15:37.120 hospitality nourishes the body the mind the spirit the heart it acknowledges the humanity of the traveler

00:15:50.080 in all of his different dimensions you honor the guest you see uh you welcome the guest you have

00:15:59.820 conversation with the guest you learn from the guest and when he leaves you give him a gift now could

00:16:06.260 anything be more civilizing and humanizing and heartwarming than the knowledge that a particular culture or

00:16:15.100 society practices this on all the different social levels you see that this there's a great great

00:16:23.940 wisdom here about the art of living and i mean so i guess for us i mean in the modern age we're not

00:16:31.680 ancient greeks but uh we might not do this the whole ritual that they did in ancient greece but i mean for

00:16:38.180 us it could just be as simple as actually setting aside and like being intentional about inviting others into our

00:16:44.280 home and breaking bread with them absolutely it's always it's always a thoughtful kind gracious and

00:16:53.780 social thing to do people appreciate it people appreciate it uh you don't you're right it doesn't

00:17:00.840 have to be elaborate you're absolutely right but it's the intention and the goodwill that counts you

00:17:07.000 know what are you doing tonight well why don't you come over for coffee and dessert uh why don't you what

00:17:12.120 are you doing tonight well just we're having a barbecue why don't you come and join us uh uh you know

00:17:19.580 it's the winter's been long and weary just come over for some wine and cheese in conversation we

00:17:26.160 haven't seen each other in a long time do you see that does that's nourishing that's emotionally

00:17:33.760 nourishing it helps people to uh it helps human beings to appreciate other human beings and

00:17:43.480 recognize that they're not just workers they're not just mothers they're not just fathers you know

00:17:50.420 they're not just specialists that there's a human dimension to them uh that is so inviting but you

00:17:58.400 have you need these occasions in order to uh to to know these people you know and get to know them

00:18:06.740 better uh i mean just simple things even if you've never met before just simple questions like oh you

00:18:14.860 know uh where are you from or you know where did you learn your trade or where did you go to school

00:18:21.180 or where are you i noticed you have a french name uh are you french canadian or you know little things

00:18:27.800 like that somehow open the door and i have found in my lifetime that you know uh that occasions of

00:18:35.880 hospitality are naturally opportunities for conversation everyone has a story everyone has a story

00:18:43.520 you know uh but you have to ask nobody's going to tell you this story nobody's going to delve into

00:18:49.860 their background or relive their childhood or tell you of you know the great adventures

00:18:56.100 the romantic adventures i mean whatever they've done in life it's memorable i mean it's it's all stored

00:19:03.640 away but they need an opportunity to express it and those things come up naturally in uh social

00:19:12.020 occasions of hospitality where people are conversing and learning about each other and

00:19:17.940 and there's that that kind of spontaneous honest exchange and then all those people are there so

00:19:24.860 that yes often some people sometimes someone will come say well let me introduce you to so and so or

00:19:31.380 uh my wife would really like to talk to you or my husband would really like to talk to you

00:19:35.700 you see uh those things happen in such a fortuitous way uh such a spontaneous way that it's uh

00:19:44.560 very very very spirited uh so i i uh you're quite right when you say that hospitality does not have to

00:19:52.880 be elaborate but it's uh it just it can be very simple you see when earlier i said that one of the

00:20:01.560 hosts of the traveler is eumaeus he's a swine herd he doesn't have a palace he doesn't have talented

00:20:10.020 musicians and dancers but the welcome he gives the stranger he doesn't know it's on dishes he just

00:20:15.920 thinks it's a vagabond but he treats him with regal hospitality he offers him his best makes him

00:20:24.660 comfortable he roasts the best meat for him he spends time conversing with him they exchange stories

00:20:31.820 you see uh that's a very important you know storytelling is a very important part of this

00:20:38.360 ritual uh there is so much human wisdom to be learned by way of conversation you don't have to

00:20:46.240 read books about it you know you don't have to read experts about many things that somehow can be

00:20:54.060 easily learned by confront conversations with people who have life experience and who have

00:21:01.800 things to say and have real convictions so another area or another practice you argue for is the

00:21:08.680 the art of letter writing and i'm curious you know in a world in a world where we can communicate

00:21:13.920 to any with anyone around the world instantly via email or text message why should we make make time

00:21:21.500 for handwritten letters i mean what are we able to convey via handwritten letter that we can't through

00:21:26.020 an email yes well again it's a very very thoughtful and very practical question

00:21:31.780 and that uh and that uh and that is uh the uh the difference between electronic correspondence

00:21:41.660 and letter writing is that some uh some occasions require letter writing some there's certain occasions

00:21:53.840 where uh you can uh compliment someone congratulate someone sympathize with someone offer your good wishes to someone

00:22:12.100 in the form of a written letter

00:22:15.780 because when you write a letter first of all you have to be in a state of leisure

00:22:23.540 you know like most electronic communication is in the form of business you know we yes we want dispatch

00:22:32.860 you know we want instant communication uh when we're purchasing things ordering things

00:22:39.160 doing online uh business uh yes that has its purpose but that we shouldn't limit correspondence only to emails

00:22:49.580 uh so when you're writing a letter and just notice now i i mean i mean this has been said to me

00:22:56.400 over and over again by several people

00:22:58.240 people uh will do not throw away your personal letters they don't throw them away

00:23:07.240 um i remember myself uh when i was a college student i would uh i would call my parents

00:23:16.540 once a week or twice a week and then i would also write letters

00:23:20.840 but i remember my mother saying to me please write letters she said i can re-read the letters

00:23:29.300 i like seeing your handwriting your handwriting reminds me of who you are

00:23:36.380 when i receive a letter um i can then put it away and re-read it when i miss you

00:23:45.140 when i have a letter from you and other relatives ask i can read them your letter or set show them

00:23:54.700 your letter in other words sometimes we can express the deepest emotions of our hearts and souls

00:24:03.820 in the form of letters

00:24:05.940 yes letter writing uh takes time you have to somehow imagine the person

00:24:17.180 in front of you in other words you have to see that person you have to remember that person

00:24:24.000 you have to keep in mind that person's character personality sense of humor likes interests

00:24:31.260 and it makes a demand upon you what can you say in a letter that would be meaningful what could you say

00:24:40.680 in a letter that would be enjoyable what can you say in a letter that would make someone say

00:24:46.780 that letter made my day that's what people tell me that's what people say you said getting your letter

00:24:55.180 made my day what did it communicate it communicated to me that you found the time

00:25:03.600 you found the time to write to me and you somehow organized your day to collect your thoughts and say

00:25:16.580 something to me in a letter that was friendly that was delightful that

00:25:24.740 gave me advice that recommended something for me to read or to see or to do

00:25:32.080 um that's the power of letter writing you see in other words the business of letter writing is not

00:25:41.440 to suck it's not instant communication but how it's a form of pleasing someone 0.85

00:25:48.220 you see it's a form of pleasing someone how do you keep friendships how do you keep them active

00:25:56.500 you see well you yeah you can you can do emails and keep them active but uh i have found in my lifetime

00:26:05.600 that the friendships that thrive are the ones that somehow exchange letters doesn't have to be every

00:26:13.700 week but regularly like even if it's three four times a year uh they're beautiful things to receive

00:26:22.760 and you read them and you reread them and what happens when you read a letter is it motivates you to write

00:26:29.660 a letter and yes i know people say well i you know at least i'm not a good letter writer that's not the

00:26:36.100 point you know you know how to talk you know how to express yourself that that's all that people want

00:26:42.320 to just express yourself in the best way you can you know my mother was uh was an immigrant she

00:26:49.200 she uh didn't know english very well and she just she she knew uh a few languages uh she knew 0.55

00:26:57.180 armenians and she grew up in uh france she would write mean letters in french

00:27:02.800 ma chère fisse i lost i still love that beginning my my dearest son ma chère fisse you know

00:27:09.700 uh uh and that was very touching uh and uh that's how people know us they know us by what we say

00:27:18.980 they know us by what we write they know us by our thoughtfulness we cannot always plead the excuse

00:27:25.880 of busyness you see that is the lamest of excuses people always find time to do the things that are

00:27:36.000 important they always do that is they may have to prioritize but they don't ignore doing the things

00:27:43.980 that are important when you have the moment when you have the weekend when you have vacation

00:27:49.420 you do the things that are really important um you write that letter or you make that phone call

00:27:57.760 you know or you make that invitation uh and that's the secret of living a balanced life you know we

00:28:06.560 cannot let busyness or work somehow consume us to the point where the most important things in our lives

00:28:16.100 our family relationships our bonds our friendships the people that we're most indebted to uh that we have

00:28:25.840 lifelong association with we have to make sure that these things are not neglected or forgotten

00:28:33.980 because then we become less human you see we become less human i think one of the other things i love

00:28:42.580 about letters is that it's tangible right yes when you get a letter you see the person's handwriting

00:28:50.540 uh and through the handwriting you can see their personality and yeah when you hold it you think

00:28:56.200 well he the person who sent me this like he held it too there's something i mean it's something it's

00:29:00.420 bizarre that that can actually convey more connection through an object but like i don't get that same

00:29:06.160 sort of sense whenever i read an email even though it might be heartfelt whenever it's conveyed via

00:29:12.880 letter there's just something the the the because i can heft it um physically it conveys there's a more

00:29:19.520 of a there it there's an emotional heftness to it as well yes it's a very good way of putting it you

00:29:26.720 know i mean can you imagine uh can you imagine uh love letters by email can you imagine writing a letter of

00:29:36.940 condolence by email i mean do you see how inappropriate that is that that that's as as impersonal and as

00:29:45.460 insensitive and as unfeeling as as one could possibly get you know so you're right the if we want to

00:29:55.640 somehow you know we have to remember that human beings uh have many many emotions you know they they

00:30:04.480 have they have sensitivities they have sensibilities they have you know certain refinements um and we

00:30:14.200 never can quite capture that with email you know um uh and uh writing a letter gives you the chance to

00:30:23.580 somehow uh present yourself or write in a way or say some things that you know correspond

00:30:33.340 to that person's sensibilities and feelings and thoughts and interests uh that is uh that's important

00:30:45.100 to them you know that it's important to them i mean uh i mean every human being wants others to take an

00:30:52.640 interest in them you see uh and that's what we neglect in the modern world is we don't take

00:30:59.440 a human interest in other human beings we take an interest in them if you know we work together we're

00:31:08.200 colleagues you know we're on a team uh we work on a project we work on roofs together we work on houses

00:31:16.000 together uh yes that's true uh but there's there is another dimension you see you know we have to

00:31:27.440 always remember that there's a mystery to human being there's a very very deep mystery to human

00:31:33.400 being and yes we see the person with our eyes and you know we recognize that this person is tall this

00:31:39.200 one is short this one is young this one is old this one is attractive this one is plain you know we

00:31:44.960 those are first impressions that we have but we have to realize that there are so many other layers

00:31:51.920 upon layers upon layers upon layers that uh that form a human being don't we want to know those other

00:31:59.760 layers uh don't we want to to get to know the heart of a person the soul of a person the essence of a

00:32:09.040 person uh and so these lost arts of modern civilization are always keeping that keeping that alive

00:32:20.880 you know i mean just think of uh when a person when a person leaves this world what what are they

00:32:28.560 remembered for you know what are they no one they're not going to be receive a eulogy for you know being

00:32:35.600 punctual at work every day although that was certainly an admirable quality but people will say he was a good

00:32:43.220 mother i mean he he was a good father she was a good mother he was a true friend you know she had a pure

00:32:50.120 heart she never said anything unkind about anyone you know she was the most humble person and never

00:32:57.320 complained i mean it's it's these beautiful qualities of human beings that are cherished

00:33:03.480 that somehow uh we will know and appreciate if we have this personal dimension to our life

00:33:12.040 it seems like um these lost arts but they all have in common is that they

00:33:16.120 draw ourselves out of our own head in a way yes yes very good very well put yes i couldn't agree

00:33:25.080 with you more you're thinking about others and not just because yeah modern modern culture is very

00:33:30.280 insular it uh you know everything is made to fit we can get internet content that just you know based

00:33:37.240 on an algorithm that aligns with our taste yes and these lost arts require you to like not just think

00:33:44.680 about yourself yes exactly well you know i i uh one of the chapters in that book uh i really enjoyed

00:33:54.440 writing because i found it sorely lacking all around me was uh it was good the chapter's called the art of

00:34:02.280 pleasing and just think about it i think just think about what you just said that so many human beings

00:34:10.600 in modern culture are most insensitive about pleasing others but most committed to pleasing themselves

00:34:22.280 in others everything i do must somehow enhance my image everything i do must serve my pleasures everything

00:34:31.400 i do must somehow advance my career uh but uh the art of pleasing is the willingness to do the little things

00:34:44.280 that may not be you know grave matters but just to do the little things

00:34:51.480 just because it's pleasing to someone you know how many of us are that sensitive to know what pleases

00:35:00.200 our mother or our father or our spouse or our oldest son or our youngest daughter you know

00:35:07.800 uh that does require just what you said the ability to put ourselves last to put other people first

00:35:15.720 to be aware of other people's uh uh sensitivities to be aware of other people the things that make

00:35:25.000 other people happy and we need to remember that these are proofs of love you see proofs of love are the

00:35:34.200 little things that you do the the the little thoughtful kind things that you do uh where you know you

00:35:41.640 say well whatever you want to do wherever you want to go uh uh rather than having an argument about

00:35:48.200 that you see uh all of us need to learn how to put our own will our own preferences

00:35:57.800 second um and that requires humility that requires great great thoughtfulness

00:36:06.040 um i i remember i think i used this example in in the book but i remember reading this

00:36:13.160 as just such an exquisite example of the art of pleasing uh i was reading something by alice von

00:36:22.520 hildebrand uh married to the eminent theologian dietrich von hildebrand and she remembers asking her

00:36:31.080 husband once she said could you please please please not put a bar of soap in a soap dish with water in 1.00

00:36:38.360 she says i know it's not something that bothers you but it's quite irritating to a woman and could you

00:36:47.400 please not do this and uh the fact that he stopped doing that proved how much he loved her that's how she

00:37:01.240 interprets this you see yeah in other words uh take for example a mother who cooks what her children like to eat

00:37:11.400 rather than rather than what she likes to eat she she cooks what her husband likes to eat or what the children

00:37:19.000 like to eat you see that's the art of pleasing that's the art of pleasing uh and uh we all we all

00:37:29.320 thrive on this you see we we can all be sourced to other people all could be sources of joy to them

00:37:39.080 if we do these little things these simple amenities these these thoughtful acts of courtesy

00:37:47.160 so um mitchell in another chapter you talk about the lost art of courtship um i'm sure our younger

00:37:54.280 listeners uh have heard the word uh have heard the word but because they've grown up in a culture that

00:37:59.240 is pretty much abandoned courtship um what exactly is it and how does courting or courtship strengthen

00:38:08.040 a relationship in the long run yes well again uh that that's um that is a lost art and it needs to be

00:38:17.240 recovered uh for all kinds of reasons and you know courtship it doesn't you know yes i know people will

00:38:26.040 say well that's something they did in jade austin's 18th century world or in the victorian period but no

00:38:32.840 there's a there's a certain logic to it in other words um courtship begins in a social in a social

00:38:43.000 occasion that is a man and a woman will meet you know that they they can meet at school or they can

00:38:49.720 meet at work or they can meet at church or they can meet at a party you know it's a social situation

00:38:57.400 uh and uh they someone will introduce them or they will introduce themselves uh and he will make an

00:39:05.320 impression on her and she will make an impression on him so in other words this person is not just some

00:39:12.840 stranger this is someone that you had a chance to meet this this is someone

00:39:20.520 upon whom you have an impression either favorable or unfavorable or interesting or uninteresting or

00:39:28.040 attractive or not attractive um so it begins uh it begins in a social situation

00:39:36.440 uh and uh if there is you know compatibility and congeniality uh then a man uh should

00:39:47.880 then initiate a courtship by calling asking the person you know to do something uh whether it is to go out

00:39:56.920 to dinner or to go out to some cultural event or go to some athletic event and so in other words

00:40:05.160 um there's a second opportunity a second opportunity to somehow know each other better uh to have more

00:40:15.160 conversation to appreciate uh and understand each other's personality a little bit more

00:40:23.880 um and so in other words you're building a foundation you see it is uh first of all here is someone you've

00:40:32.520 actually met someone that's been introduced to you by someone you respect um and and so now you you

00:40:41.480 spent more time with each other on a date uh and so the second time one of you or both of you will say

00:40:50.120 well i i hope we can do this again you see and so the third layer builds upon the second layer which

00:40:57.560 builds upon the first layer you see and so as this goes on within a period of time uh uh

00:41:05.880 uh then the the whole idea here is that uh you will be falling in love or you will not be falling in love

00:41:17.560 in other words um

00:41:19.240 as this relationship somehow develops and deepens at some point someone will say you know i really

00:41:28.680 miss you i really miss you i feel this kind of emptiness in my life um i really love being with

00:41:35.800 you um uh i love your sense of humor you're you're you're fun to be with you know uh we have so much to

00:41:44.440 talk about you see so in other words you give a courtship is allowing a relationship to grow

00:41:52.760 naturally you see in other words it's like a seed let the seed grow cultivate the seed nurture the seed

00:42:03.400 let it blossom you see and uh and then one of two things will happen uh that is a man will will

00:42:13.480 will realize or a woman will realize well this is not meant to be and i i uh or

00:42:21.160 they will recognize that this is meant to be i uh i this this person is perfect for me

00:42:30.920 but notice that as i'm describing courtship it's chaste all right notice it's chaste notice that the

00:42:39.800 whole idea the whole sexual aspect of love and marriage are guarded and protected

00:42:48.600 there is none of this hookup culture none of this promiscuity none of this this this cohabitation

00:42:59.400 that is a mockery of a romance and a mockery of marriage the whole the whole point of courtship

00:43:07.080 is that a mystery is being unveiled you see it's being unveiled it has to be unveiled slowly it doesn't

00:43:17.720 happen instantly the secret of a person has to come out the beauty of a person needs time to reveal itself

00:43:26.520 and uh uh and uh and that that's what courtship is in other words you fall in love with someone for all

00:43:37.640 kinds of good reasons you don't just fall in love because of physical attraction you fall in love with

00:43:44.600 persons with with someone because there's compatibility because there's mutual attraction

00:43:52.360 because you share similar ideals because you have common values because you realize you can live

00:43:59.240 together because you realize your mother or father would approve of him or her

00:44:06.840 um in marriage you see in other words uh there's a there's there's a mystery that's being unveiled and

00:44:15.640 being revealed stages right i think that's one of the lessons i mean you refer to jane austen i know a

00:44:20.760 lot of guys think jane austen is sort of you know that's for ladies but there's oh no there's a great

00:44:26.120 lesson there i just finished reading uh pride and prejudice oh good good and mr bennett right uh he

00:44:34.040 he's in a terrible relationship he does not does not like his wife he calls her a silly woman and but

00:44:39.000 elizabeth his older daughter you know noted like real you know she notes why her dad doesn't like

00:44:45.480 his marriage with his with her mother is that he married her just for looks like it was just the

00:44:50.440 the sexual attraction and it must have been a quick courtship uh because it wasn't until after

00:44:56.680 he was married to his wife that he realized i do not i have nothing in common with this woman

00:45:02.200 and i don't enjoy being around her well that's right exactly uh yes you see what jane austen

00:45:08.760 shows you in that book and that's why men should read this book because um men should need men should

00:45:16.520 need to uh need to read this book because what jane austen reveals to you is that uh if a woman is

00:45:24.440 uncertain about whether or not she wants to return your love there's one test that you have to pass

00:45:30.360 there's one one test you have to pass and um in other words every woman wants to know 0.99

00:45:37.560 in her heart does he really love me really love me or just say he loves me okay he could say he loves

00:45:46.360 me but uh i'm not convinced he really loves me and what jane austen shows you in that book

00:45:55.240 uh is that yes darcy darcy really loves elizabeth bennett and how many men after being refused

00:46:03.800 when they made a marriage offer would make a second marriage offer to the to a woman who refused

00:46:12.120 him how many men are large enough noble enough to do that forgiving enough overlooking enough to do

00:46:18.920 that you see he did that you see and uh notice that uh there's another episode of that book where

00:46:27.720 remember he proposes to her the first time and she says no you're the last person i would ever marry 0.65

00:46:33.320 on earth she says that to him with great anger because she's offended by his manners offended by

00:46:39.080 his manners by his snobbery uh by the fact that he told his best friend not to court elizabeth bennett's

00:46:47.880 sister jane uh and so they part uh on this note of uh of anger and insult now then they meet again

00:47:02.280 many months later and notice how darcy he he he can he treats her like a gentleman he could have avoided

00:47:10.920 her he could have given her the cold shoulder he could have been slavish he could have pretended she 0.97

00:47:16.280 didn't exist but he was a gentleman and in other words he showed her that he could change his behavior

00:47:25.640 and manners to please her you see in other words that's how much she meant to him he would he admits

00:47:34.120 his faults he corrects his faults um he uh tries again he wants to prove to her that he loves her that

00:47:44.440 much that there's nothing he won't do to please her but within his power so uh what jane austen shows

00:47:53.880 you in that book as you recognize you recognized in your own reading of it is that people marry for

00:48:00.520 different kinds of reasons you know they're all there are all those different romances and matches in

00:48:05.880 that book and you mentioned the one between the mother and the father where he marries her for social

00:48:11.560 reasons uh she's attractive and she's young and she's flirtatious and he married her but but the 0.98

00:48:21.000 all the other dimensions of the other dimensions of missing compatibility is is missing they're not

00:48:29.000 in other words he doesn't respect her mind do you see you the person you marry ultimately is someone

00:48:35.480 you have to respect you have to respect the person's character the person's mind person's moral principles

00:48:43.240 um uh that's a very practical consideration many people in that book they marry just for money you

00:48:50.440 know the old maid charlotte lucas she wants to marry so she's removes the stigma of old maid she doesn't 0.99

00:48:58.120 want to be a financial burden on her family so she marries well that's not a very happy marriage either 1.00

00:49:03.720 you see they're mediocre marriages jane austen shows you many mediocre marriages uh 0.99

00:49:12.120 but she also shows you the beautiful ideal that is embodied in elizabeth and darcy they do everything

00:49:20.040 right in other words they take into account the economic aspect of marriage the social aspect of

00:49:27.160 marriage they both realize they're marrying into each other's families they're not just marrying each other

00:49:33.080 they're marrying each other and his family and her family they have to they're not going to end all

00:49:40.680 family relationships because of their marriage and they're all they're both committed to making the

00:49:47.720 mingling of two families work they're going to extend themselves with their manners with their behavior with

00:49:55.640 their conduct to always be civil and polite even though they may not like someone you see

00:50:02.760 marriage demands that so the economic consideration the social consideration and they are also 0.86

00:50:11.320 attracted to each other you see darcy and elizabeth are he's fascinated by her he keeps saying all

00:50:17.960 through the book he cannot stop looking at those beautiful eyes and uh and likewise elizabeth has to

00:50:24.600 agree as all the women uh at the dance that darcy is indeed a very handsome man that that is there the

00:50:33.960 attractive element is there but even more important than all those considerations is the moral dimension of

00:50:40.840 marriage courtship courtship courtship courtship courtship gives you the opportunity to recognize whether

00:50:48.040 moral dimension of marriage is there as the foundation you can have all the other things you can have

00:50:56.920 the economic and social and attractive aspects of marriage somehow in place but if that other dimension is

00:51:05.560 missing, for example, then there's going, there are going to be some serious divisions and

00:51:12.980 conflicts. But if the moral dimension is present, and you both have the same ideals, same principles,

00:51:19.540 whatever the arguments are, you will reconcile them, because you agree on what is good and right

00:51:25.320 and moral. Very good. Well, Mitchell, this has been a great conversation.

00:51:31.420 Is there, where are your books available? Where can people find more about your work?

00:51:35.560 Well, TAN Books has two of my books, The Lost Arts of Modern Civilization and The Mysteries of Life in

00:51:46.780 Children's Literature. And Crossroad Publishing has The Virtues We Need Again, and I have another book,

00:51:56.740 it's called The Virtues That Build Us Up. It's coming out in July 1st. Crossroad Publishing,

00:52:06.400 so TAN Books and Crossroad Publishing. Very good. Well, Mitchell, thank you so much for your time.

00:52:12.080 It's been a pleasure. Well, thank you for asking such good questions. You're a great interviewer.

00:52:16.700 Well, thank you so much. All right. Bye. Bye-bye.

00:52:19.660 My guest today was Mitchell Kalpakian. He's the author of the book, The Lost Arts of Civilization. It's

00:52:24.660 available on Amazon.com. He's got some other great books. The Virtues We Need Again is another good

00:52:29.080 one where he takes life lessons from the great books. Check that out as well. And also make sure

00:52:33.920 check out the show notes at aom.is slash civilization for links to resources mentioned throughout the

00:52:39.040 show so you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:52:40.360 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and

00:52:56.380 advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And

00:52:59.940 if you enjoy this show and have gotten something out of it, I'd appreciate it if you give us a review

00:53:03.620 on iTunes or Stitcher to help spread the word about the show. As always, I appreciate your continued

00:53:08.320 support. And until next time, this is Brad McKay telling you to stay manly.

The Art of Manliness - July 18, 2016

#218： The Lost Arts of Modern Civilization

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