#220： Tyrants-- A History of Power, Injustice, & Terror
Episode Stats
Summary
Since the days of ancient Greece, a battle between two political forces have been going on in the west: democracy versus tyranny. But what makes a tyrant a tyrant? How has tyranny changed throughout western history, and what is its connection to masculinity? Well, my guest today has recently published a book that explores these questions. His name is Waller Newell, and he's a professor of political science and philosophy at Carleton University in Canada.
Transcript
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brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast since the days
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of ancient greece a battle between two political forces have been going on in the west democracy
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versus tyranny but what makes a tyrant a tyrant how has tyranny changed throughout western history
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and what is its connection to masculinity well my guest today has recently published a book that
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explores these questions his name is waller newell he's a professor of political science and
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philosophy at carleton university in canada i've had waller on the podcast before discuss his great
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book the code of man if you haven't listened to that episode go check it out but today on the show
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we discuss his latest book tyrants a history of power injustice and terror waller and i talk about
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the three types of tyranny that pop up in world history what we can learn about tyranny masculinity
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from the ancient greeks and romans how some tyrants paved the way for liberal democracies
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how isis is a form of modern tyranny and what the antidote to tyranny is this is a fascinating
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podcast with lots of implications on today's geopolitical environment after the show make
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sure to check out the show notes at aom.is slash tyranny all right waller newell welcome back to the show
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nice to be with you brett well so last time we we had you on we were talking about your books on
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manhood the code of man what is a man uh you got a new book out about the history of tyranny
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i'm curious how does how is this book the history of tyranny sort of continue your work about manhood
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and masculinity throughout the west um yeah how is that how is it a continuation of what you've been
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doing for the past couple years well i've always stressed that the traditional conception of
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manliness has quite a bit to do with an interest in public affairs if if you go back to the classical
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notion of the callous kagathos the gentleman um aristotle for example says that prudence the hallmark of great
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statesman is is the highest virtue short of philosophical contemplation and in cicero's dream
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of scipio for example you have this model of a balance of civic virtue and the life of the mind
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and that civic virtue is higher than battlefield courage and this whole notion of an interest in
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public affairs continues throughout the renaissance with civic humanism um if you think of the american
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founders uh they read classics like cicero polybius and sallust in in college they emphasize that you
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must always prefer cato to caesar as alexander hamilton said you must always prefer the servant of the
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republic to the republic to the dictator so these lessons i think became very real and and very
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formative for uh the american political tradition as well and i'd also note mention the notion of the
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tremor the notion of tactical flexibility for a long-term goal in politics churchill for example said
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that abraham lincoln was the classic trimmer so i think that whole notion of an involvement in public
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affairs as a part of what it means to be a man but at the same time avoiding extremes and and trying
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to plot a kind of moderate course gotcha so your your new book uh the history of tyranny it's called
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tyranny um talks about the history of tyranny and so i'm curious uh how do you define tyranny and why
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why write a history of this form of government well tyranny is both a form of rule and a kind of
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psychology at bottom tyranny is lawless rule by by an individual or by a group it it treats people as if
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they were objects for manipulation with no rights of their own and no right to say in how society is
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governed why did i write it well i would point out that the history of tyranny is also the history of
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its eventual defeat by free self-governing society so it's not a pessimistic account in a in a way it's a
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hopeful one you can go all the way all the way back to the greeks think of their 3 000 tiny city
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states uh versus the huge multinational persian empire the battles of marathon thermopolis salamis
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this confrontation or struggle between free societies and tyranny has been repeated many times think of
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waterloo dunkirk the defeat of hitler the defeat of the soviet empire so uh tyranny has always been
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with us and we have to be alive to that danger but at the same time so far uh tyranny has never
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succeeded in prevailing and what do you think most modern western democrats right democracy people
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live in democracy what do you think they get wrong about tyranny i would say to some extent that
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we're victims of our own success in other words because we do live in comparatively peaceful
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uh historically unprecedentedly wealthy societies where the rule of law is the norm maybe we don't
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always live up to it but it is the norm i think that can lull us into a kind of amnesia whereby
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we forget that this way of life has been successful mainly in the west we have a tendency however to
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project it on the rest of the world and to convince ourselves that everybody is that way or is on the
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verge of becoming that way i think it's reflected in what is sometimes called the rational actor theory
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of political behavior which is that people are motivated primarily by material self-interest
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and that if you can provide them with material prosperity their aggressive impulses will fade away
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that might work in the west it took us 400 years to cultivate those values of individualism
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but i think history shows that it's at least doubtful that people everywhere in the world
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are are motivated solely by a desire for economic prosperity yeah and we're going to talk about
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that later on because you you make the case uh that what we're seeing with islamist jihad and isis
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it's a it's a form of tyranny we'll talk a little bit more about that later on um so let's talk about
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the types of tyranny that you you argue exist uh the first one you describe in the book is garden
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variety tyrants uh so what are the traits of garden variety tyrants well i would say that uh this is
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this is at once the oldest form of tyranny and one that is still everywhere around us today garden
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variety tyrants rule an entire society you might say as if it were their own private
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property uh to exploit for themselves their families their cronies sometimes this involves immense
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personal hedonism and luxury think of these notorious uh roman emperors like nero caligula
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it's really something that stretches back from hero of syracuse to the samosas of nicaragua
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or bashar al-assad today who and by the way plato would have instantly recognized assad uh as this
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kind of tyrant now these figures can do some good the greeks sometimes gave power to tyrants sort of like
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a shogun uh someone more effective than a traditional monarchy at winning wars improving the city's economy and
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and defenses but of course they always had to be on guard because at the end of the day these people
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really do treat an entire society as if it were their personal property to exploit and that is going
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back to the ancient greece the ancient greeks and kind of exploring the idea of garden variety tyrants you
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there was a great section of my favorite sections that was in the book kind of exploring the connection
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between greek ideas of masculinity or manliness and politics and it seemed like there was this
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this tension in greece so on the one hand they had this heroic ideal from homer where it seemed like
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the garden variety tyrant was sort of uh set out as an ideal you had this chieftain who had his his
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kingdom and he treated his his kingdom as if it was like the people were like he's part of his family
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but then you had thinkers like plato and aristotle who were saying they were trying to put a check
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on that that compulsion so can you talk a little bit about that tension that existed within greek
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culture itself about the role of i mean tyrants and how masculinity uh affected it yeah it it is quite
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fascinating because in a way homer's achilles was the ideal of greek manhood and he was a kind of bronze
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age chieftain uh a king in his own right almost like a viking chieftain in a way he would you know
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lead his men into battle personally but it was also a lesson in the danger of supreme personal ambition
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and how it could go awry it's his rage over a perceived insult from his commander-in-chief
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that sparks the entire trojan war uh and and and it's terrible uh bloodshed everything is about
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him he's a kind of narcissistic figure uh he's magnificent but but he's flawed and yet even when
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the greeks themselves sort of left the you know went went beyond their bronze age heritage and and
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became self-governing city states they no longer had bronze age hero kings like achilles but they
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still idolized achilles so that's the tension right that that they were living as free societies where in
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fact an achilles could never really be part of the constitution and yet a lot of young men still
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looked up to achilles is this ideal so plato's answer is to try and redirect achilles kind of
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ambition from personal power and glory to the honor that you derive from serving the common good in
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cooperation with your fellow citizens and for this you need a new education in moderation and self-control
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something that is very unlike homer's depiction of heroism in a certain sense plato's republic is all
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about how to forestall achilles from from emerging okay and besides oh go ahead i i should correct
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myself i i shouldn't have said by the way that the achilles rage sparked the trojan war that was
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because of the abduction of helen but it was certainly his rage that prolonged the war because he
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withdrew in a huff from the fighting uh and and that made victory for the greeks uh take a long time
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to come gotcha um so so you had this tension in greek within greek culture itself where that is ideal of
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personal ambition um at the you know with the homeric uh poems but then trying to control that ambition to
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serve the greater good to serve the polis but besides that tension there was a tension between
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greek culture itself and uh the east or persia you know it's people always talk about oh yeah the
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greeks they they're persian was their enemy they thought them the sort of weirdos or whatever but
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they actually got a lot of inspiration from persian borrowed a lot of things so can you talk about
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the tension between greek culture itself and persian culture and how that they combine the two sometimes to
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create tyrannical governments yeah right i mean in the west you had this tradition going back for quite a
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long time of small self-governing city-states in the east by contrast you had huge multinational empires
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uh powerful wealthy huge standing armies in a way it was a form of rational despotism
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if you try and if you think of the pharaohs the babylonians cyrus the great these were prosperous
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powerful societies they were well run and the greeks were impressed they were impressed by the
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persian empire even though they feared that it was trying to extinguish their freedom so you know
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basically when when alexander the great conquered the persian empire it was as if achilles had taken over
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a world state because achilles was one of those many excuse me alexander was one of those many young
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men who admired achilles and alexander then used that captured world state to spread the values of greek
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culture everywhere so so i think um there was this really important synthesis between you might say
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uh the uh the the greek heroic standard of of manliness but at the same time they really learned
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an awful lot from the persian empire and in in a certain sense they took over the legacy of the persian
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world state uh and hellenized it and um how would you describe like the the persian empire i mean was it
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a tyranny because i mean the way you describe it is that yes they they conquered people but then
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it seemed like the the leaders would give their subjects a lot of leeway in terms of the religion
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how they governed themselves so what was what would you call the dynasty is it just despotism what's going
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on there strictly speaking from a greek perspective you would have to call it a tyranny because there was no
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form of representative government the persian king was a master uh the word in greek despotes literally
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means that he had the power of life and death over every single member of his empire from the highest
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lords to the lowest peasant he could dispose of them as he wished yet at the same time the power of that
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state when properly used by people like cyrus created road systems promoted the economy promoted trade and
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cyrus began the persian tradition of extraordinary tolerance of religious diversity uh cyrus famously
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rebuilt the temple in jerusalem he encouraged the subject peoples of his empire to retain their
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religious faith he may no attempt to interfere and he also encouraged people to rise on their merit his
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own elite became multinational so in many ways cyrus the great was the paradox of a liberalizing despot
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uh and by the time the greeks you know encountered his successors the persian empire still had many of
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those qualities and i think that's an interesting point you made throughout the book is that
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i think what a lot of modern individuals who live in the west get wrong about tyranny is that
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a lot of times people prefer tyranny over republicanism because like as you said there's a lot of freedom
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um they they did things to improve the the lot of their subjects um and and so i'm curious um when did the
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idea that tyrants were completely bad like you would never want a tyrant you would you'd prefer
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individual government individual liberty when did that take hold in uh in the psyche of the west
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that's a that's an interesting question i i would say that that
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hatred of tyranny is present from very early on uh in in thucydides for example the the story of
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harmodius and aristogaiton um and later people's profoundly mixed feelings about julius caesar
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some of whom saw him as a tremendous benefactor for the common people of rome but others who absolutely
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loathed and despised him as a tyrant who wanted to crush roman liberty the interesting thing about the
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grico-roman heritage is that it had all of these nuanced judgments uh about tyrannical rule you know
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there there were there were good and bad varieties or or or you know uh there there were there were
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more preferable versions less preferable versions so i mean the the romans at bottom had
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a totally uncompromising intolerance for the notion of even a monarchy let alone a tyrant in fact for the
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romans the word rex king was simply another word for tyrant that's how fiercely resistant they were
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to any form of non-republican authority and yet even they i mean think of how the debate
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to this day about how we think of julius caesar we we're still debating this right i mean there are
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there are people who see him as a as a tremendously beneficial figure and others who just excoriated him
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as the death of roman liberty yeah that's that's interesting i mean and speaking of the romans so how
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going back to the romans how did they go from uh the you know the republic where they just loved individual
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uh liberty um they aboard kings or any type of monarchy or or a tyrant how did they transition
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to an empire that was led by a tyrant this is one of the most fascinating stories i think in political
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history right really you can say after the defeat of carthage rome woke up one day and found itself the
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master of the world and yet it was still in effect a small greek city state it was a self-governing
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city state in possession of an empire and the way that they got around this was because they had such
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a fierce aversion to monarchy they pretended that the emperors beginning with augustus were merely the
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first citizens in what was supposedly still a free republic a city state so it was a hellenistic
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monarchy outwardly garbed in the traditional forms and rituals of a republic and that was you can say
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sheer genius in a certain way that they managed to contain that contradiction by that kind of
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constitutional fiction in in a sense so that we just talked about garden variety tyrants tyranny uh
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the second class of tyrants you look at are what you call reforming tyrants uh what are their traits
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and what are some notable examples of reforming tyrants in western history well i think some of the ones
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i mentioned like alexander julius caesar augustus these are people who want complete power and glory for
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themselves but they want it at least in part to do good things for their people right they build roads
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they build sewers they they beautify their cities they distribute land to the poor uh and unlike a lot
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of garden variety tyrants these sort of you know uh hedonists like like nero uh they often have a very
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strong degree of self-control that they they are able to master their passions for the sake of this
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long-term goal and then if you turn to the modern age you you can look at these modern state building
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despots as i call them uh who aim to uh crush the church centralized authority under the secular state
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the tutors louis the 16th frederick the great peter the great napoleon i think they all fit into this
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category yeah and speaking of i mean i thought it was really interesting is that you make the case that
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these enlightenment ideals of individual liberty the consent of the governed uh were actually made possible
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by reforming tyrants like the tutors and henry like so can you explain how did tyrants make the make
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pave the way for uh individual liberty and sort of self-governance right it it's it's an interesting
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story it's full of paradoxes but you can basically say that europe followed two paths to modernity
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following i would say machiavelli's script machiavelli said the state could be ruled effectively
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either by people's meaning republics or by princes the goal of either was to maximize the security and
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well-being of all now in england and america self-government evolved more or less peacefully not not
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entirely so there were civil wars but compared to europe more or less peacefully because by the time the
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constitutional governments were formed the values of individualism and commercial self-interest were
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already very deeply rooted now in europe by contrast the forces opposed to modernity the aristocracy the
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church remained very much stronger and more formidable so that their societies had to be modernized from the top
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down but with the same ultimate goals in mind you think of napoleon napoleon exported liberal values
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through his conquests self-government religious toleration more rights for women meritocracy and so
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by the 19th century i would say that having taken these two very different paths europe and america met in the
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same place gotcha uh and then also you talk about how the top down um reforms took place in russia as well
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with frederick the great and the like absolutely yeah um but they saw them they saw themselves as
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creating societies where the individual would be liberated they they sincerely saw themselves as
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wielding power to bring about modern societies in which the lot of the average person would be improved
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but did they still want to maintain power oh absolutely absolutely you can't take the tyrant out of the
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tyrant they they were often supremely ambitious people or very militaristic like like frederick the
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great i mean he spent half his life in the saddle they they often wanted to in enlarge their domains
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they wanted bigger countries to modernize and and that was a part of the paradox they they
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they certainly did not believe in democracy or self-government they might have wanted to help
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improve a lot of the average person but they were definitely going to remain in the driver's seat
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and i mean did they i mean here's another question i think is important so is it possible to be i mean
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are these classes of tyrants are they mutually exclusive or is it possible to have shades of all
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three so you can be a reforming tyrant but still be a garden variety tyrant as well i think it's possible
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to have shades of all three they're not uh they're not fixed distinctions they they kind of
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blur into each other on occasion i mean i would say somebody today like vladimir putin
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is a combination of of all three i i i would describe them as uh as a as a kleptocrat and a reformer
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with a side dish of millenarianism okay well let's speak of speaking of millenarianism the the third type
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of tyrant third class is called millenarian tyrants and you argue this is actually this type of tyranny
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is a modern development um so what sets it apart from the other two types of tyranny and how did it
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develop what i think sets it apart starting with the jacob and terror of the french revolution
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in 1792 was the attempt to return to what the jacobins called the year one
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uh a golden age of of alleged complete equality no property no classes and the individual submerged in
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the collective of a totalitarian state in other words it was an attempt to create utopia on earth
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overnight it begins as i said with robespierre robespierre thought he was bringing about
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john jacques rousseau's golden age the state of nature when we all lived in bliss and equality
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and i think starting here as well is that there's always a group some race or class that stands in
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the way and has to be exterminated so that all mankind can live in bliss forever for the jacobins
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it was the bourgeoisie and the aristos for lenin and stalin it was the kulak or so-called rich peasant
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for hitler it was the jews so i'm arguing that this line of descent runs from the jacobins to the
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bolsheviks the nazis chairman mao the khmer rouge and jihadist groups today like isis
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so i mean that's interesting uh yeah that rousseau was kind of the guy i mean what did did rousseau
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like did he advocate for this sort of thing like this sort of return or did individuals read his work
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and they were like you know we're just gonna actually make that happen i think it's more the
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latter a fair reading of rousseau probably would would make you conclude that he didn't intend
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that sort of outcome but on the other hand his rhetoric was very inflammatory right property is
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theft man must be forced to be free when someone like robespierre came along he could cherry pick
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those inflammatory phrases and convince himself that he was bringing about
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jean-jacques dream of the state of nature in in the here and now gotcha um so
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part of the the millenarian tyrants uh tactic is to to cleanse the earth right use mass killing
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to cleanse the earth so they can get back to this what you call history behind the history
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um but you know garden variety tyrants and reforming tyrants would also kill thousands or hundreds of
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thousands of people to further their agenda how does the violence of millenarian um tyrants differ
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from you know garden variety tyrants and uh reforming tyrants it's it's a fair point um i would first
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point i guess to the sheer scale of the violence in other words in a mere year and a half during
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the jacobin terror in france something like a quarter of a million people were killed uh and of course later
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on uh with full-blown totalitarianism that became millions and tens of millions of people the the
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methodical slaughter of entire races and classes what what is sometimes referred to as the industrialized
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murder of the holocaust i would say this began with the jacobins too because the jacobins did not kill
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randomly they liquidated entire groups of people they began the whole litany of horrors of mass firing
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squads and pits they sometimes just opened fire with cannons on people uh it it was really the kickoff to
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what became all too familiar in in the 20th century and i'd also say that it's different
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from other kinds of tyrannical violence because of this genocidal component in other words if you're a
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member of the designated race or class standing in the way of utopia you're going to be killed whether
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you oppose the regime or not even if you support it and that's not true of ordinary tyranny i think
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assad kills people because they threaten his monopoly on power if you give in you won't be killed
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if you were a jew willing to give in to hitler you'd still be killed just as isis will kill you if you are
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a christian so i think i think that's an important difference okay so yeah you make the provocative
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argument that islamist jihadism uh that with we're seeing with al-qaeda isis etc get most of its
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inspiration from rousseau heidegger and sartre and these like you know french philosophy existential
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philosophers rather than islam um you know islam is a component of it but the the inspiration of what
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they're doing um comes from these existential philosophers and rousseau so can you explain that
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a bit that argument you have yeah um i'm basically arguing that the notion of an authentic people of
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destiny which heidegger identified with national socialism makes a migration from the far right to the far
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left left under neo-marxist thinkers like fanon and sartre so that
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the proletariat of classic marxist theory is now replaced with this notion of the people
00:31:55.820
and the destiny of the people now as to its connection with jihadist ideology
00:32:03.660
first of all i'd say that it's pretty well documented and and i try to show it in the book
00:32:11.260
other scholars like bernard lewis have made the same sorts of connections just to take one example
00:32:17.340
the intellectual godfather of the iranian revolution ali shariati studied in paris and was influenced we
00:32:25.820
know by sartre fanon and heidegger just like paul pop by the way uh at roughly the same time
00:32:34.300
so uh i i think that it's important that um we understand the extent to which
00:32:43.100
jihadist ideology is really in my opinion a totalitarian ideology that is masquerading as a
00:32:51.100
religious movement and i mean why is it important that you know western democracies understand
00:32:58.940
that jihadism is a strand of millenarian tyranny i think it's important because we need to
00:33:06.700
bear in mind that islam traditionally doesn't believe that man can create a perfect society on earth
00:33:15.500
through his own efforts especially not through secular revolution any more than do christianity or
00:33:23.980
judaism shariati said repeatedly he wanted to create a classless society in iran that's that's marxism
00:33:33.340
and not only that but all of these jihadist groups have no interest in the history of their own
00:33:40.140
religion they simply erase the history of islam with its centuries-long experience of statecraft
00:33:49.580
and its high culture so i think it's important to encourage moderate muslims by signaling that we
00:33:59.580
non-muslims understand that jihadism is a perversion of their true faith and i think that precisely by
00:34:07.820
refusing to discuss it or name it we actually allow the perception to grow that islam is indistinguishable
00:34:16.380
from islamism and going going bring the connection back to masculinity so you know a common argument
00:34:22.700
that i've read in the past 10 years about why young men are drawn to jihadism uh and it usually the the
00:34:32.300
rational actor theory is thrown out they don't have money there's no jobs the economy is terrible but
00:34:37.420
you met you argue and you point out it's true that most of the people most of the young men who
00:34:42.300
join jihad like they come from middle class or well-to-do families um so what's drawing these young
00:34:49.980
men to jihadism when they you know they they're middle class they're going to schools they can have
00:34:55.740
they enjoy comforts what's the draw what's the appeal yeah in many cases they're already enjoying all of
00:35:02.700
the benefits of western society so so what what's the problem well i i think that we have a chronic
00:35:10.940
tendency to underestimate the power of conviction we still go on believing that somehow if people have
00:35:21.020
more prospects for jobs if they have more prospects for economic affluence that the sources of their
00:35:29.980
aggression will melt away but unfortunately i think it's possible for people to have a principled
00:35:39.100
conviction that the west is despicable and needs to be brought down now you can say do they always have
00:35:48.060
that sincere conviction no some of them are just nihilists right they just enjoy mayhem and violence but
00:35:56.060
some of them really do have that uh that righteous zeal and and the belief that they are serving a
00:36:02.940
higher cause and i i think we just have to realize that even if the vast majority of potential uh terrorists
00:36:12.620
could be won over by economic progress there's still going to be a significant rump of people who are
00:36:21.500
motivated by conviction and so i mean what's the best way to approach millenarian millenarian tyrants
00:36:29.260
who are convicted who are convinced that their cause is righteous and that is i'm gonna put you on the
00:36:34.220
spot here while you're going to solve this problem right now um what's the best way to defeat isis
00:36:41.020
um you know in addition to what i said about encouraging moderate muslims
00:36:47.020
uh uh by the way something like 50 percent of american muslims do not believe that their own
00:36:54.780
leaders are forceful enough in criticizing extremism but unfortunately in the case of isis i think it's
00:37:04.380
got to be military defeat in the first instance and and here's why all jihadist movements want to control
00:37:12.540
a state where they can create their utopia right jihadism is always a two-pronged enterprise it's
00:37:20.460
bring down the west but it's also build a truly muslim state now before isis only the iranian revolution
00:37:29.020
had achieved this and isis's allure today has a lot to do with its claim to have established such
00:37:38.300
a theocratic theocratic state the stepping stone to a worldwide caliphate and i'm afraid that that
00:37:45.100
allure really has to be removed at its source all right and that's done militarily militarily yeah and
00:37:53.580
and of course you know i i don't have the expertise to say how precisely but because a lot of isis's
00:38:02.620
revolutionary a law comes from this claim that this is the stepping stone toward the worldwide
00:38:10.300
caliphate i i think until you can sort of shatter that claim that the appeal of it is going to be
00:38:18.620
very hard to eradicate okay so at the end of the book you argue that one of the antidotes to tyranny
00:38:25.100
is reading the great books so how does reading the iliad or the city of god or the prince how does
00:38:32.380
that prevent tyranny what i'm trying to say is that people have to have what i call a homeopathic
00:38:40.460
cure for the temptation to tyrannize in other words you have to know something about tyranny
00:38:48.140
both as a form of government and as a psychological category before you can spot it coming and that
00:38:57.340
means studying the history of statesmanship great literature wherever we can find depictions of the
00:39:08.300
varieties of tyranny the personality types and their struggle uh with the forces of of freedom
00:39:17.900
people have to immerse themselves into this in a way they have to enter the imagination of the tyrant to
00:39:25.020
an extent uh before they're going to spot this danger either abroad or or or in our in in our own midst
00:39:34.140
okay and so in the book you you provide a great reading list at the very end with a bibliography
00:39:39.340
of uh books that hit on this topic right yeah i i call them the next best books uh we need we need the
00:39:49.500
great books but we also need history to to kind of fill the gap in people's experiences especially young
00:39:56.860
people um and so i've got i've got about 300 of what i consider to be really great histories and
00:40:05.740
biographies some novels uh about statesmanship and tyranny to supplement the great books well waller
00:40:15.020
this has been a great conversation um before we go i mean is there any where people can go to check
00:40:19.340
out more about your work and learn more about your book tyranny uh well the book uh is available from
00:40:26.380
amazon and barnes and noble it was just published in the uk and europe there may soon be italian and
00:40:33.740
portuguese translations and my website wallernewel.com uh contains information about all my publications and
00:40:45.020
appearances and pretty much everything i've done great well waller newell thank you so much for
00:40:49.500
your time it's been a pleasure my pleasure brett thank you for having me my guest today was waller
00:40:55.100
newell he's the author of the book tyranny you can find that on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere
00:40:59.420
also make sure to check out the show notes at aom.is slash tyranny for more links to resources
00:41:19.420
well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice
00:41:23.500
make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com and if you enjoy this show i
00:41:27.820
would really appreciate if you give us a review on itunes or stitcher or recommend us to a friend
00:41:32.540
it goes a long way as always thank you for your continued support until next time this is brett mckay