The Art of Manliness - #234： Haggling and Deal Making Advice From a FBI Hostage Negotiator

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast so negotiation

00:00:19.880 feel like most people who grew up in the west particularly america negotiation might make you

00:00:25.140 uncomfortable because it's really not part of the culture you know the price someone asked is

00:00:30.200 usually the price we pay but negotiation is something all of us will have to do at one time

00:00:34.960 or another a job salary a car price are two obvious examples that come to mind the problem is the way

00:00:41.560 most folks go about haggling when they do have to negotiate is that they often do it in a very

00:00:45.800 counterproductive way for example it's typically typically assumed the best way to negotiate is to

00:00:51.240 quickly get to yes and make compromises but what if the better approach is to make no your goal

00:00:57.080 and never split the difference well that's what my guest on the show today argues and his insights

00:01:01.560 have been field tested in truly critical situations his name is chris voss and he's a former lead

00:01:06.700 international kidnapping negotiator and the author of never split the difference negotiating as if

00:01:11.860 your life depended on it and today on the show chris shares tactics and strategies he developed

00:01:17.000 to better negotiate with kidnappers that can work in the civilian world and many of his tips were

00:01:22.180 encountered what you've probably been taught so if you're looking to become a better haggler you're

00:01:27.320 going to love this episode it's packed with tons of actionable advice make sure to check out the show

00:01:32.280 notes at aom.is negotiate for links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic

00:01:38.960 chris voss welcome to the show thank you man my pleasure to be here i'm honored to be here

00:01:47.940 all right so you're a negotiation expert uh right now you own your own company that consults business

00:01:53.080 businesses or business clients on how to negotiate before that you were the lead international kidnapping

00:01:59.760 negotiator for the fbi so first question how did you get involved with high stakes hostage negotiation

00:02:07.300 in your career well you know i'm happy to get into that but i want to add a little qualifier on the

00:02:12.920 what i am um and what i really think of myself as um is a person who's great at negotiation coaching

00:02:22.040 and consulting and i was just thinking earlier i i i will flatter myself to compare myself to phil jackson

00:02:29.060 phil jackson i don't think he even started for the new york knicks as a player but he's probably

00:02:36.660 arguably the best coach ever and he coached people so there can be you could be a much better

00:02:43.900 negotiator than me and i can still help you get better at negotiations so how i got started at this

00:02:51.200 was uh you know i was your typical i'm allowed to say i was a knuckle dragon swat guy

00:02:57.780 i was on a i was on a swat team in the fbi and i had always wanted to be in swat uh and i studied

00:03:08.060 some martial arts in college and ripped up my knee the knee injury was actually a blessing in disguise

00:03:14.040 how could that be that that something that bad is good but uh i was trying out for the fbi's

00:03:20.480 equivalent of the seals which is the hostage rescue team and i hurt my knee again and i got put back

00:03:26.080 together again and then i decided i needed to maybe take uh uh a job in crisis response

00:03:32.320 that ultimately wouldn't have repetitive injuries to it you know why they could still put my knee

00:03:37.820 back together so i want to be a hostage negotiator and i went to uh the woman who was in charge of

00:03:44.500 the hostage negotiation team in new york and she told me to go away

00:03:47.320 um and so i asked her advice on how to get in and followed it much to her shock

00:03:55.100 and it ended up getting in and started as a hostage negotiate with the fbi right i thought

00:04:00.320 that was interesting what she told you to do is go uh sign up volunteer for suicide hotlines

00:04:05.960 yeah yeah you know um and to me it seems obvious you know that you ask the right person what to do and

00:04:16.060 then actually do it but when i talked to her and told her i was going to put that story in the book

00:04:21.960 she said you know i must have told a thousand people to do that and two people did and you were one of

00:04:29.660 people and it was great i mean i learned about how to really listen and read between the lines with

00:04:36.360 people and not just read between the lines because a lot of people i think a lot of people are good

00:04:41.160 that are good actually good at that you know when you gut instinct when somebody does something and

00:04:46.180 you say to yourself you know don and i knew they were going to do that i mean i think that's us

00:04:51.280 telling ourselves that you know our instincts are good we can't read between the lines and on the

00:04:56.040 hotline i just learned how to read between the lines and then what to say to make a difference in

00:05:00.360 what people are going to do gotcha and and during your time on um the hostage negotiation team for

00:05:06.820 the fbi what sorts of cases did you work on well um we kept a lot of cases out of the media because

00:05:14.280 we were successful but i worked on you know my my first real deal case for the bureau was a bank

00:05:22.680 robbery with hostages in brooklyn and even though that uh bank robberies with hostages happen in the

00:05:29.320 movies and like every other movie every other action film in real life they happen in the whole

00:05:34.820 country about once every 20 years so it's a it's a black swan event if you will and so uh that that

00:05:42.640 went well negotiated one of the bad guys out he surrendered to me personally and then we got

00:05:48.760 everybody out we got all the hostages out and so i worked uh and i worked a couple of really small

00:05:54.520 things in new york that were great experience it was there was a teacher that was accused of an

00:05:59.680 inappropriate relationship with a student and he barricaded himself because he didn't do anything

00:06:04.320 wrong but the mere fact that it was a 13 year old girl he was horrified that his his life and his

00:06:09.720 career was over and uh we taught we helped uh dobbs ferry police department uh dobbs ferry new york

00:06:16.940 talk him out saved his life and so then worked a couple of major major sieges worked the dc sniper

00:06:23.700 case in washington dc and uh there was another case in dc a guy referred to as tractor man who shut down

00:06:31.480 the nation's capital just before the beginning of the second iraq war which is kind of like um

00:06:39.580 it was a hallmark if we did a good job you didn't know about it like very few people knew

00:06:44.220 why we're getting ready to go with to war with iraq this guy who claimed that four bombs shut down

00:06:48.980 the center of washington dc but we kept him from getting killed too we talked him out and then i

00:06:53.880 worked a bunch of kidnappings around the world which are really just commodities deals as horrifying as

00:06:59.720 that sounds i worked a lot of kidnappings okay yeah i didn't i had no idea about the tractor guy

00:07:05.740 like that was in 2013 and i don't even remember that happening well i'm talking about um actually

00:07:14.000 2000 it was 2003 okay 2003 excuse me right yeah and and uh i was talking to my son about this the

00:07:22.160 other day because you know he still lives in the dc area and he knows tons of people in dc that grew

00:07:27.460 up and lived in dc through the whole time that have no memory of it because we we kept it contained we

00:07:33.540 kept it under control under news and uh and we talked about nobody died you know the the media

00:07:39.700 if it if it if it bleeds it leads and that's why the vast majority of the stuff that were my successes

00:07:46.160 uh didn't get a lot of publicity because nobody died that's good that's a success um so you got a

00:07:52.880 new book out where you take your years of experience as a high stakes negotiator working on teams where

00:07:59.680 you're dealing with these high stakes negotiations um and you show civilians how they can apply these

00:08:05.740 these tactics or these skills in their regular life whether in business or their personal life

00:08:10.780 it's called never split the difference negotiating as if your life depended on it um before we get to

00:08:16.580 the nitty-gritty of some of these tactics and skills i want to talk about because i thought it was

00:08:20.440 interesting you discussed sort of the evolution of negotiation at the fbi um and how it changed during

00:08:28.420 your tenure there let's talk about what were the standard protocols that case agents had followed

00:08:34.740 um before you got there and how did those change um as you were involved there and uh and just things

00:08:42.040 evolved at the fbi well yeah all we really did really was just stall for time and then try to

00:08:50.260 patiently outpower the other side and you know there's there's some success to that because

00:09:00.600 patiently outpowering or having a stronger will

00:09:07.740 in a patient fashion at least keeps you from open conflict which is never productive and even if you

00:09:16.240 get what you want an open conflict it's like nuclear war it leaves toxic waste behind and even very

00:09:24.860 successful negotiators and you know i use donald trump as an example mr trump he has such a tendency in all

00:09:33.700 the uh the negotiation wars that he's won that after a while people in the environment there's enough

00:09:42.020 enough toxic waste i can't remember the last time he put up a building in new york city he put up some

00:09:46.820 of the most phenomenal buildings you've ever seen in your entire life in new york city but it's been 30

00:09:52.020 years since he's done that and so at least getting out of that open conflict because it just leaves it

00:09:58.820 leaves toxic waste you know when when you beat the other side you know they never forget it and so they

00:10:05.020 don't want to cooperate in the future and that was kind of what we were doing in in the fbi we'd gotten out of

00:10:11.140 open conflict in negotiation but very definitely trying to just bull our way through with a

00:10:17.940 relentless approach and and by and large it was you know it wasn't horrible um it was the success rate

00:10:25.520 was higher but we had a uh you know i had a kidnapping go bad in the philippines um the kidnappers

00:10:32.920 didn't kill the our our hostages our hostages in a dying uh in a botched rescue attempt and shot by

00:10:40.060 friendly fire but the bottom line is they still didn't get out and you know that was for me that

00:10:46.320 was the most difficult professional moment of my life i have a very distinct memory at 5 30 in the

00:10:52.960 morning getting a call from the philippines being told that martin burnham was dead and it was for me

00:10:59.440 it was it was horrible and i think it's selfish of me to say that it was horrible because it wasn't my

00:11:04.520 family member that died as bad as it was for any of us in the fbi who tried very hard to save

00:11:10.780 martin burnham's life you know it wasn't our family member that died it was nothing compared to what

00:11:15.940 the burnham family went through but then you know we had to get better we did everything we could at

00:11:21.440 that time we had to get better had to had to had to get better it's either get better or quit

00:11:26.120 i wasn't going to quit so uh that's when i went back to uh started looking outside of hostage

00:11:33.260 negotiation and collaborated with the harvard people and and saw jim camp's book start with no

00:11:39.820 uh which was the seed of a lot of our ideas i think we very he had there's brilliance in that book and

00:11:45.620 i think we evolved this thinking and we we came to a new approach that was much more

00:11:51.540 it was actually a lot trickier a lot sneakier you know uh but it was more effective we instead of

00:12:00.220 trying to bull our way through we came up with some great psychological nuances you know you and

00:12:06.180 i were talking earlier the effectiveness of the how question how am i supposed to do that

00:12:09.840 which i actually heard a version of that from a drug dealer in pittsburgh you gotta you gotta go

00:12:16.320 where you know wherever whatever works yeah you gotta take it yeah yeah so what am i to go

00:12:21.520 negotiated negotiation mentors is a someone i never met a drug dealer in pittsburgh whose

00:12:26.320 girlfriend was kidnapped you know the famous line that he said was hey dog how do i even know she's

00:12:31.660 all right and that flipped the entire dynamic of that kidnapping and i was looking for the answer

00:12:37.620 at that time and i realized it was right in front of us and stuff we already knew about

00:12:41.760 it was something we knew about but we just changed how to apply it

00:12:45.780 and you know the a new approach to a lot of different ideas that you know nobody ever thought

00:12:53.440 to themselves how do i you know can i can i put up a boundary in a negotiation and stop the other

00:13:00.800 side in their tracks just by asking them how because it stops people dead in their tracks right

00:13:06.180 yeah i thought it was interesting with that before the uh you know instead of asking how you know how

00:13:11.920 how do i know if the person's still alive like you got fbi would be like ask these questions like

00:13:16.360 what's her grandma's maiden name or what's the name of her first pet like sort of like the bank

00:13:21.840 security questions and that's how you'd figure out if the person's okay yeah yeah and we did that and

00:13:28.780 in the kidnapping and all the previous kidnappings and the one that went bad the one that really bothered

00:13:35.080 me about that was you know that wouldn't get us anywhere it would prove somebody was alive it

00:13:40.360 wouldn't get us anywhere and in the midst of that case in the philippines then it comes to my

00:13:45.860 attention that uh you know the hostages have been overheard on the phone but not our phone

00:13:51.860 and i remember kind of freaking out over that i'm like what in the world and why is this going on and

00:13:59.320 how does this happen i mean and i talked to my boss at the time gary nester a great guy and he said

00:14:06.420 well you know a hostage is never on a phone unless it's for proof of life and we never got anybody on

00:14:12.400 the phone i mean we didn't even bother asking because we knew if we asked the bad guys would

00:14:17.440 say no so don't ask because they're going to say no which is another assumption that i now realize is

00:14:24.080 wrong and a fallacy of the approach and there's you know asking for non-starters can be a very smart

00:14:29.860 thing to do which most people are horrified at doing and we were horrified at asking for a non-starter

00:14:34.880 but then when when i found out somebody else who was not this enormously sophisticated smart fbi

00:14:42.920 hostage and goes to the way i was was doing stuff that i couldn't do i mean that blew me away that

00:14:47.720 that's why when i heard the the drug dealer in pittsburgh do it i knew that was the answer right

00:14:53.900 just ask ask straight up how how okay we'll get more into the detail about how and other calibrated

00:14:59.500 questions but let's start off with this because i think uh a lot of people are uncomfortable

00:15:04.700 with negotiation uh whether it's in business or you know even life's just a negotiation or you're

00:15:10.360 talking to your kids um and i think part of the problem is that people have assumptions about

00:15:17.580 negotiation or when they go into a negotiation what are some of these assumptions that people have that

00:15:23.480 make negotiations go sour or south or just not work or break down

00:15:28.260 well first of all everybody imagines they're going to face donald trump like when you expect to get

00:15:35.420 into a negotiation you're expect to be faced by a guy who's going to attack you guy a gal is going to

00:15:41.260 attack or that you know that they're going to try to get the best of you and so that two-thirds of us

00:15:50.040 makes us very defensive there's there's a there's a portion of the population actually likes that

00:15:56.520 and it'd be like and they'll say yeah when i negotiate it's like getting in the ring with the best and

00:16:01.540 i'm going to go toe-to-toe and you can see that when they even talk about that they kind of move their

00:16:06.440 arms like they're getting ready to box and they get very excited but the first assumption is that's

00:16:11.300 always going to be the case and if the other person on the other side of the table is always going to

00:16:15.440 cut our cut our throat when in fact they're a minority of the time 75 percent of the people

00:16:21.500 we come across are actually trying to work with us to make good deals but we don't we treat everybody

00:16:28.780 as if there's a throat cutter that they're going to kill us and so that's the first problem the next

00:16:35.540 the second problem is that we become the hostage of yes i mean we're so desperate to hear yes

00:16:43.220 yes and yes has been cited as one of the most beautiful words in the english language

00:16:47.280 if not any language that if we don't hear yes we're horrified we're desperate for it

00:16:53.220 and then that becomes and anything that sounds like yes we want to go they said yes

00:17:00.020 and we have a deal and then we want to run away before we figure out how

00:17:04.980 and i i really try to reaffirm to people over and over again yes is nothing without how the real key

00:17:12.720 to the negotiation what's the key here yes is nothing without how if you haven't got how you

00:17:17.760 haven't got a deal but many people stop it yes because they're in love with yes they're seduced by

00:17:23.940 it and they become the hostage of it and then they then they don't cut a deal and i had uh i was doing

00:17:32.220 a talk one time ceo brings in his uh his chief corporate counsel and they say i want you to teach

00:17:38.880 my chief corporate counsel how to negotiate penalty causes into deals and my thought was

00:17:45.960 you are in love with yes and you get a deal and you think you got to deal with yes and then it

00:17:52.540 always goes sideways so now you want to know how to punish people because you can't negotiate a good

00:17:58.800 deal and they and that's all a result of becoming a hostage of yes and i think those are the biggest

00:18:04.500 things yeah well yeah going let's continue off this this hostage of yes thing i mean you argue in the

00:18:10.660 book that oftentimes when people do get a yes it's a deceptive yes um right yeah so what are some of the

00:18:18.740 ways that counterparts in a negotiation process use yes as sort of a throw-off or sort of a yeah a

00:18:26.040 deceptive yes yeah um well there's three kinds of yeses there's commitment confirmation and counterfeit

00:18:32.960 and so many people try this and there's actually an academic term for it's called mere agreement and

00:18:39.620 if you get somebody to say yes several times said a little yeses they'll say yes then a big yes and

00:18:44.360 it's such nonsense but everybody does it they try to trap us with yes and so since we're used to that

00:18:51.480 you know the shrewd business person a shrewd negotiator wants to suck all the intelligence possible out

00:18:57.360 of you they'll bring you in under the illusion that you're going to get the business so that you can

00:19:03.920 pitch all this competitive information and market information which they'll take from you and they'll

00:19:09.880 use it to drive down a price with somebody else they want to actually do business with so they make

00:19:14.760 it sound like they're interested they'll make it sound like yeah you know we'd love to hear what you

00:19:18.760 have to say and they'll and they know that they committed to listen to you and since you're in

00:19:26.380 love with yes you think they committed to making a deal and so you will put yourself in a position

00:19:34.000 where you're highly vulnerable to them because you thought they were dealing with you in good faith

00:19:38.400 and they'll lead you down this path and they get very good at it and then at the end they'll either

00:19:43.740 just flat out say well things have changed they come up these people are great with the excuses

00:19:48.640 of well things have changed and i can no longer do this and it's not my fault but it's beyond my

00:19:53.200 control but they've sucked they've sucked up your time which is the most valuable commodity

00:19:58.460 by giving the illusion of yes the counterfeit yes and i think this happens to a lot of people

00:20:04.680 or that the the other way they'll take they'll they'll get you they'll make you the hostage of the

00:20:09.820 future and that happens a lot being taken hostage by the future of the business community

00:20:15.400 if you come do this for us at the cut rate you will be exposed to all this potential business

00:20:22.360 and if you do a good job you'll get all this business and so you come and do something for

00:20:27.780 them for free and then if you didn't get the follow-on business which never happens anyway then it was

00:20:34.000 your fault but you then you didn't work for them for free and that's the hostage of the future or the

00:20:40.440 the vision of yes in the future and people get people kill themselves and kill their resources

00:20:47.060 under this illusion of yes yeah and you argue instead of aiming for yes um i mean first off

00:20:54.880 you should instead of going for yes you should go for that's right and what do you mean by that yes

00:20:59.280 yeah well you know and the distinguishing that's right from your right is the first critical step in

00:21:06.200 that understanding that when someone looks us in the eye and says you're right this is in fact

00:21:12.320 what we do with people we're trying to preserve the relationship with we really like them but we

00:21:17.480 want them to get off our case we want them to shut up and maybe we want them to shut up smile and go

00:21:23.280 away and you know there's one particular type of person around the world that is the leading

00:21:31.500 practitioner of using yet your right in order to get the other side to to leave them alone and go

00:21:37.740 away and you know what the world's preeminent practitioner of your right is i'm gonna guess

00:21:42.240 kids husbands husbands okay right yes dear you're right dear you're right you know because we say you're

00:21:53.860 right to somebody and they get this really happy look on their face and they and they and they leave us

00:21:59.680 alone they stop they change the subject so they go away and they're so happy they forget it takes

00:22:05.380 about 24 hours to catch on that we're not going along and i think this is actually this is the great um

00:22:13.360 uh this is this thing that sucks up more time and energy within businesses these days our colleagues

00:22:20.680 saying you're right to each other and not getting anywhere and we found that just the subtle change

00:22:28.000 getting someone to say that's right to us there's this there's there's a different change there's

00:22:34.000 something else that happens here because when somebody says that's right you know they pronounce

00:22:38.140 something as the complete truth what they just heard is the truth and that's when they can embrace it when

00:22:44.620 someone is saying you're right they say okay your solution what they're really saying is i can't argue

00:22:49.220 with you right now but it's not my solution it's not not true it's your truth and so i can i'm figuratively

00:22:56.620 putting the hand up in your face and i'm not accepting it but when they say that's right

00:23:02.140 bang i mean crazy things happen uh triggers an epiphany in the person that says it they feel bonded to us

00:23:10.640 at the moment excuse me they feel bonded to us in that moment and every single time and and this is

00:23:19.500 across culture this is this has happened in uh i've seen it in asia i've seen in africa

00:23:25.360 uh korean and a korean company was negotiating with his boss and got a that's right out of him

00:23:30.720 and his boss admitted some deeply personal things to him right after he said that's right and this guy

00:23:38.380 was a student in one of my classes and he said thank god we're on the phone because my mouth was open

00:23:42.960 no one in my culture never ever does a superior admit those sort of personal things to a subordinate

00:23:50.220 and when he admitted all these personal things after saying that's right he then turned around

00:23:56.040 supporter and first promotion so there's something that makes people step towards us when we and you

00:24:03.040 have to say it in a way that almost sounds like you're trying to talk them into their position

00:24:07.840 you know you feel this way because and and it's if you said almost counter to your interests how they

00:24:17.100 feel about it that's when the big steps take place and so you said to get to that's right you have to

00:24:23.940 do this you know what you call active listening or tactical empathy right yeah it's a very tactical i

00:24:30.460 mean we've taken active listening you know this is not this is not your grandfather's active listening

00:24:34.940 you know this is not uh the 70s uh feel good give everybody a hug stuff this is actually a very

00:24:42.960 mercenary approach because in the hostage negotiation i you know i learned enough about the specific

00:24:48.680 emotions to look for and how to take a tactical approach to empathy to reinforce what works for you and to

00:24:56.240 diminish what doesn't work for you and you want to you want to nurture the positives in the relationship

00:25:02.480 that positively move you towards an agreement and you want to diminish and diffuse and and uh preempt the

00:25:11.520 negatives in a in a very counterintuitive way and you do it by observing it which sounds like what good is

00:25:20.480 that going to do that sounds stupid but there's actually um brain science uh data and experiments now that show

00:25:28.240 that when you observe a negative the part of the brain that magnifies negative thoughts the electrical

00:25:34.180 activity that part of the brain diminishes and it's the difference between you know a person saying

00:25:42.720 uh i know i seem like a jerk or i know i seem like i've been a fair for you i know it seems like this

00:25:49.540 proposition is very self-centered as opposed to i don't want you to think i've been a jerk i don't want

00:25:56.180 you to think i've been self-centered i don't want you to think this proposition is unfair to you

00:26:01.460 because those are denials and denials magnify negatives but just flat out observing it which

00:26:07.820 is a very tactical approach has it makes them diminish every single time and we we this is so

00:26:17.180 effective it deals like if you and i are in a negotiation i've got some i'm going to pitch you

00:26:21.580 on something that i know you're not going to like the first thing i'm going to say to you is

00:26:25.980 i've got a lousy proposition for you and i'm going to shut up and i'm going to wait for you to respond

00:26:33.360 and every time i've used that the other person has hesitated and said well

00:26:38.220 a lousy proposition is better than no proposition what have you got

00:26:42.700 and when somebody says that to you they're completely open to hearing what you have to say

00:26:48.120 and they've already said they're willing to consider it right so you're sort of you're doing

00:26:52.580 some anchoring there a bit kind of low lowering their expectations in a way you know that's a

00:26:58.880 really good point you know it it's you know it's exactly it you're throwing an anchor of low

00:27:03.900 expectations out there and since in a vague sort of way i've allowed them to create those low

00:27:10.480 expectations what we do to ourselves is always worse than what happens in real life so the expectations

00:27:16.840 that they've created are always lower than what i'm going to throw out so they're actually relieved

00:27:22.840 when i come back with something it's not as bad as they brace themselves for

00:27:28.100 and so i've used a person's inner

00:27:34.220 voice that makes things worse than they really are to my advantage i've never had anybody say

00:27:41.700 that was worse than i expected every single time they take their expectations they anchor themselves

00:27:51.560 much lower than anything i've ever come at them with so let's let's get into some specific tactics

00:27:56.700 of active listening um so you can use tactical empathy and i guess yeah you you're kind of defining

00:28:03.220 tactical empathy you said um this is not your grandpa's empathy i think a lot of people have a

00:28:08.580 misunderstanding of empathy that you feel the same way as the person if they're sad you feel sad if

00:28:13.840 you're dealing with a drug dealer like you feel like their sense of injustice but like it's not that

00:28:19.720 it's you just understand it like you're inside their head you can see where they're coming from

00:28:24.340 um right so how what are some tactics and one of the tactics you mentioned is mirroring

00:28:29.980 uh what is mirroring mirroring and how do you do that yeah what is mirroring it mirroring is different

00:28:36.180 than what most people think most people think it's you know i'm gonna i'm gonna mirror your affect i'm

00:28:41.600 gonna mirror your energy level i'm gonna be a reflection of you and what mirroring is as a

00:28:46.860 hostage negotiator as a business negotiator it's not that at all it starts which is simply repeating

00:28:53.000 the last one to three words of what someone has just said now that sounds ridiculously stupid

00:29:00.860 and mechanical and ineffective and inauthentic and it is none of those things and it is enormously

00:29:12.380 effective it's very easy to do and the other side always likes it and it connects their thoughts

00:29:23.640 and it keeps them going and i've seen it used effectively in hostage negotiations

00:29:31.120 you know i haven't talked about this example for a long time but i remember a long time ago

00:29:35.580 when howard stern was still on public radio and i think howard stern is one of the great communicators

00:29:42.560 and one of the great negotiators because he gets people to talk

00:29:46.460 and he always has and so they've got a listener on the phone and it's one of those guys the guys kind

00:29:53.840 of you know they like they used to like to put listeners on the phone and then just ignore them

00:29:57.480 but this person kept mirroring everything that howard stern was saying and the great communicator

00:30:04.080 couldn't pull himself away from this person and finally howard stern says stop repeating everything i

00:30:10.400 say and the person said everything i say he said yeah you repeat everything i say it's driving me crazy

00:30:15.780 and the person said driving you crazy he said yeah you know you drive me crazy you repeat everything

00:30:21.140 i say you got to stop doing it and by simply mirroring him he couldn't let go and every time

00:30:27.000 he answered he'd say more and he'd expand and he'd go on and on and on and i thought if you could do this

00:30:33.380 to a guy who's used to turning the tables on others that makes a living doing that

00:30:37.780 you can do it to anybody and it it's it's ridiculous how effective it is right so you just

00:30:44.060 repeat the last few words they say and the goal of that is just to keep them talking to you and

00:30:49.020 revealing more information it's to keep them talking in many places in many cases it actually

00:30:55.860 replaces what do you mean by that and you know like i'm a very assertive guy so if you ask me what i mean

00:31:04.240 by that i'm going to repeat exactly the same thing that i just said only louder kind of like an american

00:31:09.080 overseas you know say it again only louder and they'll understand and i was and i'm working uh

00:31:15.200 with my director of operations once and i kept asking him uh if he prepared the notebooks for this

00:31:21.200 training and he and he said to me what do you mean by notebooks because he knew the way i was asking

00:31:26.220 what i had in my head was different than what he had in his head and he just asked me a legitimate

00:31:31.560 question what do you mean by that and every time he said what do you mean by notebooks i'd go

00:31:34.940 notebooks notebooks and finally he just he just mirrored to me notebooks and i said yeah three

00:31:42.140 ring binders and that that caused me to reword what i was saying and connect the thoughts in my head

00:31:50.140 and instead of repeating the exact same three same thing i expanded on it and illustrated it in other

00:31:57.300 words and that's what happens when you mirror someone the last one to three words or if you're

00:32:04.920 if you want to be when you really get good at it you'll pick out one to three words in the middle

00:32:09.340 of what they've said and you'll pick that it's just one to three words word for word and the other

00:32:16.700 person will expand and give you more information on that concept every time okay that's a great great

00:32:24.660 tactic there well let's let's go back to this this hostage of yes thing uh we talked about you know

00:32:31.240 instead of trying to get to yes our first goal should be to get to that's right and we can do

00:32:36.580 that by um you know through these you know active listening tactical empathy but you know earlier

00:32:43.200 said um that people are hostage yes when they actually should also be going i mean they should

00:32:47.720 be going for no um i when i was in law school we were talking about this earlier i when i was in law

00:32:52.480 school i took a negotiation class and the textbook we use was getting to yes i'm sure anyone who's

00:32:57.460 listening to this and they've done research negotiation or taking a class on negotiating

00:33:01.340 they probably read this book um but you argue that the goal shouldn't be getting to yes it should

00:33:08.120 be getting to no why is no so powerful and propelling to negotiation forward all right and and i'll make

00:33:15.800 a side comment on getting to yes because i own getting to yes and almost everybody does but i don't know

00:33:23.780 anybody that sat down and has ever said i read it cover to cover because it's like reading the

00:33:30.120 dictionary it's completely accurate it's brilliant intellectually but it's it's a tough read i think

00:33:38.740 you should have it in your library it's a great resource but it's a tough read and so there's something

00:33:46.400 crazy when you get somebody to say no i mean first of all the whole idea behind the book by

00:33:53.600 jim camp start with no is as soon as you let somebody feel free that it's okay to say no

00:33:59.020 they feel their autonomy is respected they're less defensive and they're collaborating with you

00:34:04.160 just by making them feel it's okay to say no so we started to experiment with what happens

00:34:10.460 when you actually get somebody to say no and you'll be stunned at what people are willing to say no to

00:34:17.800 because it's all it's protection and it started with marty eversizer who was a negotiator in pittsburgh

00:34:22.980 her boss was getting ready to fire from the negotiation team and she she was a phenomenal

00:34:28.580 representative of the fbi pittsburgh as a negotiator and she knew that if she was removed it would be

00:34:34.440 embarrassing for the office and this guy didn't care and she says she says do you want the fbi to be

00:34:41.840 embarrassed the answer is no and it's a manipulative question but since the answer was no it was okay to

00:34:50.080 say no because when you say no you protect yourself you don't let yourself in for anything

00:34:54.260 it's a psychological process that happens when people when they say no when my son was 17 he would

00:35:02.060 say dad can i and i would say no before he was finished and as soon as i said no then i would say

00:35:09.900 all right so what was it that you wanted to talk to me about because i i'd already said no now i was

00:35:14.980 willing to listen and so we use this and i was actually uh uh on a phone with a consulting with

00:35:22.980 a client just a little while ago and i said you know this guy is making it so hard on you ask him

00:35:29.480 if he wants you to not be able to pay your bills because if you can't pay your bills you can't pay him

00:35:36.840 the answer to that is no people will say no to that because they haven't let themselves in for

00:35:42.240 anything i've had i was consulting with a client who was working on um they were creating a job

00:35:49.800 for him in beverly hills and the job description was off and i said sit down and ask them if they

00:35:56.160 want you to fail do you want the person in this job to fail because he needed them to see what they

00:36:02.440 had constructed was out of place but they would love with the description they came up with and he

00:36:08.280 needed to shock them in a way that would make them feel protected and that's what when you trigger

00:36:13.460 somebody into saying no i mean it it shocks them and they feel protected at the same time and it moved

00:36:21.520 to action there was a student in my class was working on a republican fundraising committee where

00:36:27.400 they call people at night they ask them the three standard yes questions and then they ask for a

00:36:32.300 donation you know the first yes question was would you like to take the white house back in uh

00:36:38.140 would you like to see the republicans take the white house back in november and they just flipped it

00:36:43.700 to have you given up on taking the white house back in november and they took each one of those questions

00:36:50.180 that used to be a yes and flip them to no's and that night they got a 23 percent higher donation rate

00:36:57.320 under no questions no spurs people forward in a way where they feel tremendously protected at the

00:37:03.560 same time it's ridiculous how effective it is yeah i can from my own experience so i get a lot of

00:37:09.400 business pitches right um they want to people want to write for me advertising deals and the ones that

00:37:14.720 i'm more likely to say yes to or when they end with you know hey i understand if you can't do this or

00:37:19.400 don't want to do this and like i'm like wow that that i feel free there's like some protection i'm more

00:37:26.200 willing to like listen to them it's kind of silly i've even implemented this on my emails when i make

00:37:30.740 a pitch to someone i just said here's my pitch understand if you have to say no no hard feelings

00:37:36.020 don't worry about it and that's it and i usually get a better response when i leave that gateway open

00:37:41.580 uh surprisingly which is interesting because the counterintuitive because you're always told like

00:37:45.000 don't leave a gateway like just you got to funnel into the way you want but that actually just puts

00:37:49.460 people off right right that once you respect somebody's autonomy it changes the dynamic

00:37:54.220 instantly doesn't it all right let me let me tell you my jack welts can i tell you my jack welts

00:38:00.180 yeah i'd love to hear the jack welts story all right so uh about a year ago jack and susie welts

00:38:06.320 are out um you know doing book signings on the real life mba and i'm at a book signing and a book

00:38:12.500 signing for any celebrity and jack welts by is absolutely a subtle celebrity he's a rock star of

00:38:18.340 american ceos and so book signings are dangerous places for celebrities people walk up they come

00:38:24.660 within arm's length you don't know what this person is trying to get his book signing is going to do

00:38:28.640 you know you know jane finally she got spit in her face at a book signing so they don't know i come up

00:38:35.360 to jack welts i'm within arm's length they don't like i'm going to kiss jack welts on the lips they

00:38:39.160 don't know what i'm going to do this guy right so they're very defensive they could be more defensive

00:38:43.900 and they're trying to let you only be there for long enough for jack to sign your book smile for

00:38:49.680 a photo and move on and i'm sure in these instances that people are constantly this is my

00:38:55.940 opportunity to pitch jack welts ask him to do something ask him to do something where the answer

00:39:00.100 is yes right so i want jack welts to come speak see if he's even willing to speak at the course i teach

00:39:06.760 at usc so i get in front of him and i say mr welts is it a ridiculous idea

00:39:13.220 for you to come to speak at the class i teach at usc now i'm driving for a no

00:39:18.580 and he looks up and to the left and he gets this extremely intense look on his face i mean he

00:39:25.620 actually he to me i don't know him you know i'm told that he you know he has this incredible when

00:39:31.400 he's focused and he has this almost frightening gaze but he almost looks furious to me and he doesn't

00:39:37.400 and he freezes he doesn't move for what to me seems like an eternity and my first thought

00:39:43.160 is i just killed jack welts he's had a stroke he's gonna die right in front of me he's getting

00:39:48.440 ready to fall over and i'm gonna go to go to jail for giving him a stroke but then his face softens

00:39:55.040 a little bit he looks back at me and he says this is my personal assistant's name this is how to get a

00:40:01.360 hold of her i will let her know you're going to be in touch with her and we'll see if the calendars

00:40:06.020 can sync up all because i triggered him now yeah go for now all right uh that's that's a great

00:40:14.380 tactic to use in negotiation or just you just daily life um to help persuade people um so let's talk

00:40:22.040 about this we talked about this before the show before we got on recording uh about calibrated

00:40:27.480 questions this is uh i've never heard of this technique but i've been implementing it and i've seen

00:40:33.020 it work um so what are calibrated questions and how do they help draw you closer to negotiating

00:40:39.620 successfully well we use the term i use the term calibrated because every question you ask is going

00:40:46.040 to trigger an emotional response on the other side every single question so if it's going to trigger

00:40:52.560 response are they predictable and can we then calibrate the emotional response that we want

00:40:58.260 and that's why the questions are calibrated it's an intended impact and on our level one you know

00:41:05.900 our basics are the how and what questions because they create a feeling of empowerment in the other

00:41:14.280 side while you have limited their responses and they have no idea that you've limited how they could

00:41:21.560 respond because you've created this empowerment and how is beautiful for what we call this uh process

00:41:27.980 of forced empathy you're forcing the other side to take a look at you and so how and what questions

00:41:33.840 are critical in that you know they say most people say the open-ended questions are the interrogatives

00:41:39.460 which are the reporters questions who what when why how and where and we eliminate almost all those

00:41:47.460 especially eliminating why and focus on how and what and when you say to someone you know the great how

00:41:56.060 question that substitutes for no is how am i supposed to do that and people you before people learn to use

00:42:07.040 that question they think oh my god i've let myself open i'm so vulnerable at this point in time

00:42:11.980 and you're not uh but you have to try it to find out it forces the other side to take a look at you

00:42:19.960 and the client that i was talking on the phone earlier he's in a in a business deal where he signed a

00:42:27.340 personal guarantee for a significant amount of money and until he can pay that personal guarantee the

00:42:34.240 interest rate the compounds on it is very high and the guy's trying to get him to sign the documents

00:42:40.340 again or be sued and he doesn't and he says how am i supposed to do that

00:42:45.060 and it stopped the other guy in his tracks the other guy has all the advantages in the world

00:42:51.260 and it stopped him in his tracks and and if they're going to propose there's any softness

00:42:58.160 in in their position which is the point of negotiation you know how do i push the other side

00:43:03.740 to get all the value out of this to get every option without making them so angry that they storm out

00:43:10.600 and they threaten to sue me and and the how question is calibrated to push the other side to

00:43:16.920 the maximum and the worst thing they'll ever say is because you have to and somebody's saying because

00:43:25.400 you have to that means you're still in the conversation they haven't slammed their hands down

00:43:30.620 on the table and walked out they haven't threatened to sue you they want you to comply and they're and

00:43:36.400 they're being still civil in in their reaction to you and how the how question and versions of it

00:43:43.800 are calibrated to create that response right yeah it's it's extremely powerful and the other thing

00:43:49.160 too like you mentioned earlier there's no deal unless there's a how right so that how question

00:43:54.240 exactly helps you get closer to a deal like someone could say yes but if they don't have a how that's

00:43:58.980 going to happen then you don't have a deal exactly right exactly right and then that's actually the

00:44:04.200 way to tell the liar from the guy who just hasn't thought things through either person that you're

00:44:11.900 dealing with you got the same problem they can't answer how and so you use how to deal with a liar

00:44:18.640 and then either the liar is going to stop lying or he's going to go away and you use the how question

00:44:27.160 with the person who hasn't thought things through and they think yes is enough because you got the

00:44:32.620 exact same problem without how you got no deal right i mean you can i mean this is not just a

00:44:38.740 negotiation like you know business negotiations but just sort of negotiations of life if you have

00:44:42.140 your boss that comes to you and says i need this project done by tomorrow and you've got a full plate

00:44:49.080 i mean you could just ask him how am i supposed to do this and that will force him to empathize with

00:44:53.420 you right exactly right and and it's a deferential question because we used it in kidnapping

00:44:58.840 and we found that there was great there's you know we had to be deferential in kidnappings because

00:45:04.780 they're going to kill the victim you know we can't be assertive we can't be demanding we have

00:45:08.660 to be deferential we found it was great power in deference and that's why you could use it with

00:45:13.780 your boss because you don't say it to your boss like you think he's an idiot you know you don't say

00:45:18.520 how am i supposed to do that you dope you know is what your tone of voice says you know you look at

00:45:24.000 the boss you say how am i supposed to do that in a deferential tone and your boss boss will feel

00:45:30.440 wonderful because you feel you're being deferential and you're asking them for help which makes him

00:45:35.060 feel large and in charge which is what boss is like right that's awesome well your your company now

00:45:42.820 chris is called black swan um and you argue in the book within negotiation you have to be on the

00:45:49.820 lookout for black swans um what is a black swan in the context of negotiation right right right and if

00:45:57.980 i may the company is the black swan group and you know um and that's the full name of the company and

00:46:04.180 uh you know a black swan it you have to think two steps to see them but they're always there a black swan

00:46:13.720 is a piece of information that neither side could predict that if it gets out of the open it's going to

00:46:19.180 change everything and the reason they're always there is because every negotiation you're in

00:46:24.520 you will have information that you are holding back from the other side you know you've got cards

00:46:29.920 you're hiding that they don't know about every negotiation which means that's also true for the

00:46:37.100 other side so now the question is where do these cards overlap and what happens on the overlap of the

00:46:46.600 hidden information that's where the unknowns are and if we can dig that out through good calibrated

00:46:54.800 questions through triggering those through triggering that's rights suddenly crazy stuff happens that

00:47:01.900 either i triggered a black swan in a negotiation not long ago where i questioned whether or not the

00:47:07.560 deal on the table was a good deal and when i triggered the black swan i knew i had a good deal

00:47:12.280 and you and so it will simply reaffirm that you negotiated a good deal or it may show you a new idea of

00:47:22.860 something you never thought of because neither side thought it was valuable and i got another

00:47:27.940 negotiation where we start brainstorming non-monetary terms and they threw out the possibility of

00:47:37.160 introductions to business people that would be enormously valuable for me and i didn't even

00:47:42.880 know they knew these people but because we brainstormed we started showing each other

00:47:49.380 information that the other either one of us had any reason to know the other side held

00:47:53.440 and those are always worth taking the time to try to find they're always worth the extra 15 minutes

00:48:01.440 to come up with something that could take the deal in a whole new trajectory right i guess the other

00:48:08.060 challenge of that too is just being open like being open to that right being aware that there could be

00:48:13.900 something out there that you don't like those unknown unknowns right as what's his rumsfeld said

00:48:19.860 be aware that they're there and be ready to find spot them when you do see them

00:48:23.560 right and if you haven't taken yourself hostage on yes either way and we like to live by the phrase

00:48:31.640 no deal is better than a bad deal you can't make me say yes i am not the hostage of yes in either

00:48:37.320 direction if you can't make me say yes then that makes me it's easier for me to be fearless and

00:48:44.980 looking for black swans because i'm not afraid i'm not scared of what's going to come up

00:48:49.380 that's awesome well chris it sounds like negotiation is a skill that people can develop with practice

00:48:56.340 how can people who are listening to this this podcast right now how can they negotiate or

00:49:01.660 practice negotiation on a regular basis well you know um buy my book

00:49:07.380 but then you know start to try these ideas in your everyday conversations you know this is an

00:49:17.680 aspect of emotional intelligence and once we start working on emotional intelligence the great

00:49:23.880 thing about eq is you can grow it and you can grow it quickly it's not your iq is fixed no matter how

00:49:32.420 many times you sit down and take chess lessons and work logic puzzles and do you know i don't know jenga

00:49:40.660 work a rubik's cube you know you're you you've got a limit on how smart you can get on iq it's like

00:49:47.660 your height you drink all the milk in the world that you want you're only going to get but so tall

00:49:51.980 eq on the other hand is a growable thing up to and through our 80s

00:50:00.980 and so you take these skills like this that are counterintuitive and you start practicing in your in

00:50:08.680 your everyday conversations you know you you learn you learn the tool that we refer to as a label

00:50:14.260 or you learn mirroring and then when you talk to somebody about where you're going to go to lunch

00:50:20.800 you mirror them a couple times to see what happens and the more that you practice in preseason the more

00:50:28.160 you can perform in the super bowl you can't you can't do a negotiation skill you can't go to negotiate

00:50:34.640 by only using the skills in your big negotiations you got to use them in your everyday conversations

00:50:40.500 and you'll be stunned at how quickly this stuff will come to you right so yeah talking to your kids

00:50:45.560 talking to your wife talking to the boss use those skills right right right exactly well hey chris this

00:50:54.720 has been a great conversation and we literally scratched the surface there's so many other tactics

00:50:58.780 and techniques that you go you go into detail in the book where can people find out more information

00:51:03.400 about never split the difference black swan ltd.com is the website b-l-a-c-k s-w-a-n ltd like limited

00:51:14.020 black swan ltd.com and you can learn about the book um we've got we've got a free a complimentary

00:51:23.400 negotiation newsletter comes out twice a month that's got small little digestible ideas in different ways

00:51:31.180 you know we've got some free downloadable pdfs besides the book we've got some other ways to

00:51:38.060 get better at negotiation you want to invest a little bit in your in your future and in your

00:51:42.480 success we try to help people as much as we possibly can and uh our website is a is is the best first

00:51:50.840 place to go awesome well chris voss thank you so much for your time it's been a pleasure

00:51:54.640 thank you for having me on this has been a real pleasure i really enjoyed the conversation

00:52:00.740 thank you very much my guest today was chris voss he's the author of the book never split the

00:52:05.380 difference he's also the owner of the company black swan group and you can find that information

00:52:10.220 on google just search black swan group and find more information about chris's work

00:52:13.640 also check out the show notes at aom.is slash negotiate for links to resources where you can

00:52:20.160 delve deeper into this topic well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast

00:52:32.820 for more manly tips and advice make sure to check out the art of manliness website at

00:52:36.540 artofmanliness.com and if you enjoy the show and have gotten something out of it i'd appreciate it if

00:52:40.740 you give us a review on itunes or stitcher helps us out a lot as always thank you for your continued

00:52:45.740 support until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay manly

00:52:49.920 you

The Art of Manliness - September 14, 2016

#234： Haggling and Deal Making Advice From a FBI Hostage Negotiator

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