#243： Becoming a Barbarian
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Summary
On this episode of the Art of Manliness podcast, my guest, Jack Donovan, joins me to discuss why masculinity is often tragic, why today s modern world makes it hard for men to form male honor groups, the difference between a club and a tribe, and what it means to start the world.
Transcript
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brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast so seven years
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ago my guest today published what has become an underground hit on masculinity his name is jack
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donovan and that book was the way of men i had jack on the podcast a few years ago to discuss
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that book check it out if you haven't listened to it yet anyways in the way of men donovan argued
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that for men to really live what he calls the tactical virtues of masculinity they needed to
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form an all-male honor group or what he calls a gang in his latest book becoming a barbarian donovan
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lays out what creating these honor groups would look like and on today's show jack and i discuss
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why masculinity is often tragic why today's modern world makes it hard for men to form male honor
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groups the difference between a club and a tribe and what it means to start the world
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after the show is over check out the show notes at aom.is slash barbarian where you can get
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links and resources to delve deeper into this topic
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jack donovan welcome back to the show thanks for having me man all right so uh your last book was
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the way of men which has kind of become this underground cult classic among men um so what
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what's been the reaction to that book and um what kind of guys are reading it and what are the responses
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you're getting from them well uh the reaction of the book i mean i never imagined when i wrote it that
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you know i end up selling i think i've probably sold about 50 000 copies uh worldwide that's insane
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dude yeah yeah yeah i mean it's been translated into portuguese and french uh it just came out in
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deutschland uh this uh this uh past month and uh yeah i mean it's it's it's blown me away and uh
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and i think the reaction that i get is that the way of men put something you know in a way that uh a lot
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of men had always felt but couldn't articulate and uh i get that over and over again it's like i get these
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guys who uh you know they're like like oh i thought i was the only one who was who's seeing
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things this way or who thought it this way and uh you know this is the first time i've actually read
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it uh you know i've always just assumed that you know people who are writing were saying one thing
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and i was thinking a different thing and so a lot of people have really uh latched into it i have you
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know guys and i think the most thing that honors me the most is is you know when guys uh buy copies
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for their sons that were just born and i'm gonna give this to him when he's 13 you know and uh that's
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that's pretty amazing that that blows me away and uh you know i've i've also had a lot of interest
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you know i mean there's some guys who you know obviously the people who react negative to negatively
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to it um you know they a lot of a lot of them will think that i'm some kind of uh that i think i'm
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the ultimate man that i'm trying to uh uh you know tell them how how to be men and and you know
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and i i haven't gotten a lot of that but the people who think that obviously haven't read the
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introduction because i kind of say right away uh that that's not what i'm about but the guys who get
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it um it's really cool i i have a lot of guys that i always say my readers are better than me
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and not all of them but uh i have a lot of readers who are really accomplished guys you know
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special forces guys um a lot of them uh you know people who have you know been successful in
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business and and uh and you know we're lifting or whatever and they they contact me and they realize
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that i'm just a guy who was trying to figure something out and they contact me and they want
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to share their skills with me and and uh hang out and that's that's really cool uh that's really
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exciting yeah so you've been doing a lot of like tactical training and things like that right
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yeah yeah yeah yeah i have uh i did some some long-range shooting uh with leopold optics uh
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last last weekend and uh that was that was i didn't think i would like that and i uh it was really
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fun so uh you know that was pretty exciting and uh you know doing some gun stuff with my guy greg up
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in seattle uh insights and uh you know there have been more and more opportunities like that opening
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up so that's really exciting that's really cool and have you know do you know if your book's been
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picked up by like by any gender studies programs like your book like ranks high in that that segment
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on amazon it's kind of funny which means that they know who i am but uh and i think that it actually
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has been uh part of some curriculums i mean i every once in a while i hear that someone's teaching
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in a class i know it's in some libraries and and stuff like that but uh uh you know i don't get a lot of
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notification about stuff like that right so yeah i was curious i mean because it is sort of i mean
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it is uh uh like i mean it's up there with some of those you know books about masculinity that
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because there aren't really a lot of books about masculinity in the gender studies area or if there
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are they're coming from like a feminist standpoint it's like you and me and iron john it's like the
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only amazon ranking thing right it's like you and me and iron john and uh maybe harvey manfield's
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manliness every once in a while yeah i mean that you know it's something like that and then you
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know it's then it's you know more like uh you know like feminist books so it's it's just like
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we're up at the top there and weirdly uh hunter s thompson's uh uh book on the hell's angels is in
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there for some reason but uh yeah i guess it kind of makes sense it's a gang right yeah yeah no it
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makes it makes sense it's just kind of funny that it was categorized that way right yeah yeah sometimes
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you see style like sometimes i see how my book is categorized and it's it's bizarre so you find my
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books in like the like the trivia section which but um all right so let's talk about your new book
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uh how it's called becoming a barbarian how is this a continuation of your work in the way of men
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all right well you know obviously at the end of the way of men uh it says that men should uh you know
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start a gang or start a tribe and uh you know a lot obviously the response that i was getting from
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that was how what do i do you know like uh you know they want to they want to you know this kind
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of perfect guaranteed plan and and i'm like well to begin with if you you know from what i've learned
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actually you know kind of joining a tribe on my own is that you know if you want a perfect plan
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that's guaranteed to work you probably aren't the guy who should be running the tribe uh because
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you know it's a it's a creative enterprise so you you you know you have to make it up as you go
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along and uh you know obviously there's some basic rules you know we we borrowed a lot of
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structures for our tribe from from motorcycle clubs uh just because they've been working for
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years and years and years uh but you know what i also found is that people said they wanted to join a
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join a uh you know tribe or a gang but they weren't ready like psychologically they weren't ready
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and i thought that was more important for me to talk about because i you know i i i have no
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experience running a tribe for like 20 years i mean that's the guy who should write a book on how
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to run a tribe uh but uh in terms of the i the changes of the mind that have to happen to become
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part of a tribe instead of just a club you know i mean i think people were confusing tribe and gang
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and club you know but i think when it comes to being part of a tribe uh it means that you have a shared
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fate and you have this honor group that you can't turn away from when you don't like what they're
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saying you know you still have to deal with them and you still have to live up to their expectations
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and and that's the kind of tribe i was or the kind of gang that i was suggesting that people start
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uh this one that you can't just be like uh this isn't working out you know and walk away you know
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and so i i don't think that the men were ready to really uh break away from from modern life
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to the extent that they could really give themselves a hundred percent to a group
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right we'll talk about that mindset shift change that needs to take place we've written a lot about
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it on our site about uh you know this community mindset that i think a lot of people uh particularly
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in america have lost um let's start off with this you start off the chapter um in your book
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becoming a barbarian uh that masculinity is tragic which i thought was interesting
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what do you mean by that and um why does masculinity require conflict
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well you know i i had a young guy write me and uh he said that that chapter was really depressing
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and uh i'm like well you know life is kind of depressing if you if you look at it in a certain
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way uh you know i mean we're born and we get all these skills and we get better at everything
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and then we all start to fall apart and die and that's pretty depressing but uh and the same
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thing is true of masculinity i mean life is tragic in that way and masculinity is also tragic uh but
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you know because you know you strive to become a man and eventually you're not going to be as good
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at all these things that you you know these skills that you acquired i mean you become a great fighter
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and eventually you're not going to be a great fighter you become a great race car driver and
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eventually you're going to crash one too many times and uh you know so i mean there's an end to
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it and that's what i think is depressing to a lot of people because you know you do all this work and
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eventually it all falls apart or it's also depressing because maybe you don't get to be the top guy
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and most people never will most guys will never be at the top of the uh the food chain as in any group
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of men and uh so that's kind of depressing as well and so you know just as as in with life i mean
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obviously you're here for you know a short period of time and it becomes what you make of it and so
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you you know you want to be the best man that you can be and without conflict you know you're i always
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say your your life is a story where nothing happened um because you know every you can't have a plot
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without conflict that's we it's a show that would no one would watch and uh you know and conflict
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allows men you know that's how that's how we test each other and without that testing if we're always
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safe uh if we're always you know protected from each other then uh you know we can't really grow
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as men i mean that's that's that's how we become the kind of men that we're all saying you know are
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are you know gone from this earth or they're they're fewer of them or you know masculinity is is is uh
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you know our our generations are weaker than the ones that came before and and you know there's a
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because we've eliminated conflict and uh you know i actually i think you may have even
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recommended it to me but uh i just got around to listening to some of the audiobook of that uh book
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uh by taleb anti-fragile yeah and uh you know that again it's it's it's a lot of the same ideas uh you
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know you know if you deal with conflict all the time and you learn how to you know operate within
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some kind of chaos then you're going to become maybe more resilient maybe more robust and possibly
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even more anti-fragile but if you were constantly protected you were you were reliant on that
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protection right and also i mean you've written about this too we've written about it too and sort
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of this is based in you know uh sociology psychology evolutionary biology that one of the defining traits
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of males across species particularly you know our close primate relatives is that the way the males
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differentiate themselves is conflict like they within the the group right there's sort of this
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inter intra-tribal or intra-group uh competition but then there's also competition or conflict
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between competing groups and that's like how you create an individual or at least for males that's
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what that's what they sort of create their psyche around absolutely yeah and then um i think there's
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this great book if you haven't read it yet check it out is um fighting for life uh it's written by
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this jesuit priest who's like a philosopher philosophy professor and it's all about like this male
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competitive drive and he he has made this really interesting point he gets kind of freudian which
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can get goofy sometimes but like the male men males at least or boys have like they're in conflict from
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the day they're born like they're inside a woman and they have to like battle the estrogen that might
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be you know trying to make them more woman-like and then once they're outside of the womb they have
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to like differentiate themselves and separate themselves from their mother and like girls don't have to do
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that right like they can identify yeah i mean they always say like women are always you're always a
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woman you know like a man manhood is something that you have to earn like women just kind of
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womanhood kind of happens and no one says you're not a woman because you don't do this or this i mean
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i mean there are some reasons why you might not be but uh uh that you know mostly chemical in nature
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but uh yeah i mean it it's that that definitely does sound uh uh pretty freudian but and i i actually
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used freud in this book as well i mean he he it's just a model and if you don't get crazy where
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everything's about your mother then then then it's all right right yeah nothing about your mother your
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dad yeah yeah yeah yeah no but uh you know i mean uh i use him for the model of uh you know yeah this
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you know the self uh schema or whatever you know the uh there's a great model called the iceberg i think
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about like you know superego and and ego and id and and i think that you know what's so below the
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consciousness and what's above it and uh you know what makes you you and i think some of he was right
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about a lot of that right so uh you know you you argue in the way of men and this is what becoming
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a barbarian is about is that manliness you know to fully express masculinity requires a group of guys
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a tribe gang platoon posse whatever you want to call it um but i think you know us modern americans
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take pride in our hyper individualism i think there's a tendency in a lot of men today saying
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that you know joining a group is for suckers it's for sheeple and like a real man is like the lone
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alpha wolf who does his thing um so why is it not possible to like fully experience masculinity
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by yourself and you need to be embedded in in a group of men
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well i mean i guess you could you know i was i was gonna say you could experience but no i actually
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don't think you can uh i mean i think that uh you know like i said uh we need that competition that
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feedback from other men i mean uh if you're the the lone guy off on your own forever um i mean
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there's part of your experience that's missing because humans are not solitary animals uh we are social
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animals and masculinity is a social phenomenon to a certain degree and uh you know but uh and as far
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as americans and individualism goes i mean man that that was my favorite chapter in that book
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uh that's the one that i got most excited about uh that belonging is becoming uh just because there's
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so many guys who think they're so special and they're not yeah and they think that their their
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their opinion is so important and you see them arguing on the internet and you know like uh you
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know their their individual opinion is is you know they'll live and die by it and they cannot join a
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group because there's some little detail that they can find uh that that that they you know wouldn't
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want to agree with or they want to reserve their right to disagree and so they're alone is is the
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the consequence of that is that they're just alone and uh you know yeah i was talking to a guy the
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other day obviously i'm not gonna mention his name but he uh he uh said that we were talking about
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our you know a lot of guys talk about your barrier body buddy you know like who are you gonna call
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when you have to do something that maybe involves breaking the law or that you maybe you know that
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involves something that uh it was way beyond what you can handle by yourself and uh you know he was
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like you know this guy who was i was talking about with he he was pretty squared away uh you know he was
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uh you know pretty advanced in the military and probably had killed a lot of people and had a lot
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of a lot of survival skills but uh at the end of the day i mean he's still concerned about who am i
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gonna call and a lot of guys you know they think you know they're far less skilled than him think oh
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well i could handle anything that comes my way but at the end of the day you can't and so when you
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can't you depend on the government uh and that's why you know we you know again comes back to the
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anti-fragile thing like people try and create more and more and more and more and more security
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for themselves uh but it's it's a security that's a dependent security and they you know they're
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they're relying on the state to jump in and be their best friend uh when something goes wrong and i
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think that uh you know so you know as individualist as these guys think that they are and you know maybe
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if you're you're a billionaire you just hire a lot of people to do that work for you
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but most of us aren't and uh so we need friends and i think that uh having relationships with other
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men is a rich part of our lives that that uh we're missing you know i mean men understand each other
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in way that in ways that men and women don't and uh you know and in many ways i think a lot of those
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guys who end up loners end up having themselves defined by women uh because you know that's the
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most ends up being the most important person in their life and they're in their best friend
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and their only best friend and so you know their masculinity becomes defined by her
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and so you know i i think that's a very hollywood idea it's just kind of you know this rolling
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tumbleweed of of violence and judgment you know that comes from clint eastwood movies that
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you know the real man is a loner all by himself but in reality the real man gets picked off really
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easily right right and like yeah you know i remember people like i'm the alpha or in the lone wolf it's
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like you do know the lone wolves are the ones who got kicked out of the pack like they were like
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they were the runts that no one want like the wolves didn't want yeah yeah you're like this guy that
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can't get along with anyone it's not 90 of the time that's that's the case it's like the the lone wolf
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is the guy who just can't get along with anyone he's kind of a jerk you know yeah and then i mean so
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this idea of belonging is becoming i mean so how can group affiliation you know belonging to
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a tightly knit community or tribe whatever you want to call it um can make you a more interesting
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individual well i just think it fills out you know yourself more because you've been tested in
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different ways and people have demanded things from you because you know if you're just demanding
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things of yourself i mean you know i i try and push myself all the time i mean there's a lot of
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you know ways that i'm only i'm the only one driving myself uh no one really cares what i do
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but uh you know having these other guys uh you know to answer to i think uh you know really kind
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of enriches your life uh you know i uh say obviously you know i'm oathed into a tribe and you know i have
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to think about what you know how my actions are going to affect all those guys and what they would
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think what i'm doing and that's kind of the basis of where honor comes from and uh you know if i if i
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can't answer to them maybe i shouldn't do it and uh you know that people call that group think but
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you know let's i think that's again human nature and i i think that people who think they don't engage
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in group think i can see them online engaging in group think all the time right right right yeah i
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mean no no one's really that you know immune from that they just kind of like flatter themselves by
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saying that they are yeah yeah i think it's interesting too um i came across like right
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before the interview i came across this study about you know everyone trying to be an individual
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right they did a sociological study everyone who tries to be individual unique butterfly whatever
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like it actually ends up creating this like just monoculture of just uniqueness they're like there's
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like no really nothing different between anybody because everyone's trying to be unique
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so everyone is the same well it's and it's very it becomes very consumer based as well like uh you're
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not really separate from this monoculture because you're all in it and you're all alone so how do
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you differentiate yourself well you buy things you know you buy you know like what uh you know what
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the hat is the best hat for me what is you know what uh band it's it's always bands it's people it's
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but you know people it's like what kind of music your life you know you know says something about you
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as a person uh and uh you know they define themselves in these you know kind of superficial
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ways that uh you know that are easy to change you know if they come up against resistance then you
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know like i don't like that anymore or i was i was just kidding that's kind of like the modern kind
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of hipster way of looking everything you know like uh you know if if you like something that other
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people don't like then you can always fall back on the idea that you were just kidding and you
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weren't really serious and uh you know it's just a cowardly way of living it's a coward yeah i mean
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i think like like amish people like an amish person be more interesting to me than some just regular
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guy you know who's just you know buying consumer stuff trying to differentiate himself like i would
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like be more interested like sitting down talking to an amish guy about his life oh yeah i mean because
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they have a distinct and different culture they just they didn't just make different consumer choices
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you know that they have a whole life that is different so let's talk about this i mean so
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tribe is the gold but it seems like and this is what a lot of what you write about in the book
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is that modernity makes it difficult for men women i mean everyone to be a part of a tribe or community
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so what is it about modernity that makes that difficult well i mean uh to begin with we're very
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separate from each other i mean uh in the way that it's the way we make money is organized i mean
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we're not uh 10 farmers living within like a few miles of each other uh because that the community
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kind of forms itself you know at that point uh but uh you know we're a bunch of people who
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you know you're together until your career takes you to this place your career takes you to that place
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or you know and you all spend more time at work than you spend with anyone else and uh so it makes
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it hard i mean it's it's hard to have friends in modern life let alone a tribe uh you know it's hard
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to make time for the people you really like in your life uh and uh you know that's that's that's a
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you actually have to go out of your way to do it and uh you know that's one of the things that we
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look for in our group it's like are you willing to like give up something so that you can be here
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because if you're not then we we're not going to waste your time but uh you know and then there's
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so many distractions uh another another reader actually sent me a book called deep work and it
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talked a lot about the distractions of you know social media and everything everybody's constantly in
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a state of distraction and they don't know how to focus or or you know you know lock down on
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anything anymore but uh you know yeah just and the world is very anti-tribal as well i mean uh you
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know everything you know if you google the word tribalism it's basically negative it's kind of like
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masculinity it's mostly about toxic tribalism and bad bad tribalism and they don't use the word that
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much in america they're using it a little bit more in terms of politics you know the way that
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americans are divided but uh and just rabidly divided and you know i think that that's just
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human nature and that's normal but uh you know they think that you know no matter how big the group is
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we're all supposed to learn to love each other and uh you know people who think tribally don't think
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that way they think my group is my group and your group is your group and we can get along until we
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don't and uh you know that's i think globalism makes that that uh that's something that really
00:23:31.800
people who are in favor of globalism and big business and so forth uh don't want because it's
00:23:38.480
a problem you know it creates disruption in the system if you have groups that cannot work together
00:23:43.020
um you can't you have problems you know with your government with your uh you know employee relations
00:23:49.840
you have problems with your entire system is you know you have people within it that are kind of at
00:23:55.340
odds with each other and uh it would be much better for everybody if we were all just kind of loners who
00:24:00.380
think we're individualists and uh you know then we can just buy things and then that'll be much
00:24:05.320
easier for everyone i mean uh you know like the united nations is is against tribalism it's it's a big
00:24:10.080
thing you know i mean every the the goal has been for a long time to turn everything into these bigger and
00:24:15.840
bigger and bigger groups and that really to my mind is not as idealistic as as it is to facilitate
00:24:21.400
commerce right right i mean like yeah whenever you make people everyone think like they're the same
00:24:27.240
like it makes it easier to sell to right like you're actually you're yeah you're like more
00:24:31.640
i actually had a guy uh matthew crawford who right he got his new book he did his shop class of soul
00:24:38.040
craft and but he got a new book about the world beyond your head and he talks about that like
00:24:41.320
sort of these things that make us feel like we have more control right like companies want us to
00:24:46.040
make us feel like we're individuals like it allows them to control us easier absolutely yeah right
00:24:52.080
because they're just dealing with the individual who yeah is not connected with anyone else and they
00:24:57.000
don't have really a culture or like a identity um and so they can like hey i can sell you this i can
00:25:02.820
sell you your identity and here you go oh yeah that's that's most of what they do you know so i mean
00:25:09.560
like how do you so how do you counter that i mean that i mean it basically does it it takes
00:25:14.220
relearning how to live in a way that you know humans have lived for most of humanity like how do you go
00:25:21.500
about learning and overcoming that um sort of culture that we have that says no that's not that's not the
00:25:28.080
best way to do it well obviously to begin with you have to want to and uh you know most people don't
00:25:34.620
because it's hard you know and nobody wants to be different and they want to be different in a way
00:25:39.200
that's like cute and like you know like i said they can back away from but i mean that's that's
00:25:43.780
why the book was really called becoming a barbarian is because you have to understand that you're doing
00:25:50.860
something that society doesn't want and you have to make peace with it uh you know this is civilization
00:25:57.420
means civilization is anti-tribal like the civilization we have right now it is anti-tribal and so by
00:26:04.380
becoming more tribal you're going to say things and live in a way that makes people uncomfortable
00:26:10.740
and they may even hate you for it and you have to be wearing a you know the the slogan for the book
00:26:16.460
is uh caput gerat lupinum which is uh you know with the head of a wolf uh you have to realize that
00:26:21.300
you're an outsider to them you're an insider to your own tribe but you're going to be an outsider to
00:26:25.620
them and uh so that's you know something people have to make peace with uh to do that uh but
00:26:31.120
you know in order to do it i mean that's kind of what the whole book is about going through this
00:26:35.360
thought process of of uh of breaking away and thinking about things in in a group sense instead
00:26:42.280
of the global group uh we're all taught to you know that we're supposed to care about everything
00:26:47.600
that happens everywhere and humans really can't so i i feel like it's very media directed and very fake
00:26:53.400
uh you know say you know like they do you really care about this disaster that happened to these
00:26:59.880
strangers 40 you know 50 miles away or 50 you know 5 000 miles away uh probably not uh but you
00:27:09.600
know we're kind of trained to feel bad about that in the way that we feel bad for you know in watching
00:27:14.740
a movie but uh you know people you know worse things are probably happening next door to you to
00:27:19.760
people that you don't you know that you don't know or care about because you don't know it's like
00:27:24.600
the media tells you to care so you care yeah and i think that's one of the first things is kind of
00:27:28.540
breaking away from that cycle of like what everyone is caring about today i have to care about
00:27:34.020
and it's actually made it hard for me to write anymore because uh i have done that and uh like
00:27:40.560
i actually took a six month break from facebook where i kind of gave my password and everything to
00:27:45.000
one of my buddies and uh he kind of acted as my assistant for a while and uh you know when i came
00:27:51.840
back to it uh it was amazing to me you know like because i had been in that cycle i mean in my
00:27:57.260
entire writing career of of looking at what everybody's talking about today and that's what
00:28:01.480
we're going to get angry about and that's what we're going to comment on and all that and uh you
00:28:05.920
know now that i've just been thinking about my friends and my tribe and my people uh when i come
00:28:10.980
back and look at them i see guys who are really smart and really accomplished and and i'm just watching
00:28:16.140
them sucked up in that same cycle like this is what we're going to talk about today and they're
00:28:20.360
they're you know that they're emotionally angry about this thing that someone told them to be
00:28:24.820
angry about and uh things that they have no control over and uh you know i think that's one of the
00:28:31.460
biggest challenges is to to separate yourself from that and uh bring it back and you know care more about
00:28:37.540
the people who are close to you and the people who are in your tribe and you know say you know i don't
00:28:43.860
really care about that avalanche you know for strangers and a lot of people that that makes you sound
00:28:48.800
like a bad person um but you know they don't care about lots of things they don't know about
00:28:53.340
you know but they you know they if you don't care about the thing of the day then you're a bad person
00:28:59.060
and uh so i mean i think that's you know that you're going to face resistance when you when you
00:29:04.000
talk about things with people or you know you can just kind of you know nod your head i think that's
00:29:07.760
what i do a lot of the time right in those kind of situations but okay yeah sure uh but uh i think
00:29:14.120
that's you know one of the biggest parts is to separate yourself from that that cycle where you
00:29:18.620
are reacting constantly to all these messages right and uh you know react to your own world
00:29:25.160
and that's that's that's hard for people to do but it's it's kind of the most important thing and
00:29:30.340
you have to really another thing i talk about the book is is you have to figure out who your we is
00:29:36.020
like who your group is because most people you know they say we they speak really broadly in
00:29:42.100
these broad democratic american terms of well we should do this and we should do that but those
00:29:47.120
we's don't care about you uh you know they care about you only in the most superficial way
00:29:51.800
and uh you know like so you know your we should be people who actually care about your opinion and
00:29:58.280
what and care about your survival and care about what happens to you uh you know and you need to if
00:30:03.260
you don't know who those people are uh you know you need to find some friends yeah right yeah i think
00:30:09.960
the insidious thing like especially with social media is like people do this they see these things
00:30:13.620
happen they get outraged and like they they're commenting they feel like they're doing something
00:30:18.300
right it's like they're commenting i'm leaving this comment i'm you know erasing it but like
00:30:23.240
they're not i mean if you think like they're not really doing anything no no no they're just
00:30:27.040
they're literally emoting like they're emoting on command because they aren't changing anything
00:30:32.540
no one cares what they say and uh i mean you know it's like they'll get someone else to react to
00:30:38.080
what they said but you know even if that's like five thousand people it's still kind of a drop in
00:30:44.020
the bucket you know it doesn't really matter it's not going to change the world um so just you know
00:30:49.340
stop reacting to those things yeah and it's like wasted energy like you're getting angry and it's
00:30:54.340
like you're wasting like emotions are like what drives us to like actually take action and you're
00:30:58.640
wasting that uh that energy on nothing yeah i mean that's the point i make in the book is actually
00:31:05.340
like caring is a resource you can only care about so much so you really need to be selective about
00:31:10.900
what you care about because you you know you're just you should be caring about other things you
00:31:16.400
know and that's you know the time you spent caring about that thing that doesn't matter
00:31:19.360
it's time that you could be giving to people who are going to give something back to you
00:31:23.320
right yeah there was a great essay we republished on the site and it said like when these sort of
00:31:28.260
things happen you read in the newspaper it was published by the guy who was like the founder of
00:31:32.060
psychology james william james you know if you see these events in the newspaper like a ship sinks
00:31:38.120
or this travesty like it's okay to feel like sad or upset right because that's human but like go do
00:31:45.740
something with that like find someone nearby like that you know and actually take that and like do
00:31:50.140
something there like in your your locus of control so you don't waste that emotion and i was i thought
00:31:56.300
that was a really good idea so now whenever like something i see something happens that kind of
00:31:59.220
tinges me and like makes me feel bad like i'll try to do something constructive where i'm at it might
00:32:03.860
not even be related to the tragedy but like it might be i'm gonna go check in on my neighbor i'm
00:32:08.780
gonna go call you know someone who needs to be called or whatever yeah no absolutely i think that's a
00:32:13.660
that's a good uh good way to go um so with this idea of tribe um you know online you see people
00:32:19.900
saying hey join my online tribe is is tribe possible online or do you need to be face to face
00:32:27.660
join my secret tribe what are you a cop right right right but uh yeah no uh it's you know
00:32:37.500
because you can't you don't know those people you can't trust them i mean uh you know if you
00:32:41.040
are really going to be tribe with somebody i mean they know you they know who you are they they know
00:32:46.160
uh you know that's what friendship is right i mean you it's a certain level of vulnerability
00:32:51.120
that uh you know they've they've you know seen you in the good times and the bad times and
00:32:55.760
and uh you guys have history and uh you know well you they can see your good and bad you know
00:33:01.440
facebook status updates and you could have deep conversations about things i mean there's a
00:33:06.760
difference between a person-to-person relationship and a and a uh uh you know an online relationship
00:33:13.240
because we can kind of be whoever we want to be online you know i mean i know a lot of guys a lot
00:33:19.720
of guys actually a lot younger guys are brilliantly funny online they are great they are on point they
00:33:27.420
make me laugh and they're funny and then they're much quieter in person you know and i'm the same
00:33:31.780
way to a certain extent i mean uh i've spent a lot of time online i'm a writer but yeah i'm a little
00:33:37.120
bit more you know calm and reserved in person and uh you know it's so you know your friend knows that
00:33:43.920
you know they know that there's more than one side of you but uh you know online people only know
00:33:48.340
that one side of you um and you know you can start you know obviously like the people that i some of
00:33:55.940
the people that i'm oath to i only have know about because i've been online and uh you know and met them
00:34:02.620
online and contacted them because you know the online world is a great way to find people who have
00:34:07.760
similar interests to you and uh and to get you know kind of put a flag out there and say but you know
00:34:14.620
you can't really consider them a tribe they're not really your friends until you actually know them
00:34:18.300
in person i mean a good example that i've seen uh there's uh it used to be arthur's hall of viking
00:34:25.040
uh manliness i remember that site yeah yeah and then and then there's a group of uh guys that
00:34:30.460
kind of kept it going uh it's called the hall of manly excellence and those guys mean they've been
00:34:35.200
on forums together for so long that they actually have their own culture you know they have their own
00:34:41.120
jokes they have you know they they i've hung out with them in person because they eventually they do
00:34:46.060
get together in person you know and a lot of those guys you know met up and hung out in person
00:34:50.020
and they they they have you know in the way that you with your old friend you'll be like remember
00:34:55.480
this time that blah blah blah blah blah well they're talking about something that happened online
00:34:59.300
but uh you know it's like the shared experience that they all have to talk about and they have this
00:35:04.220
kind of shared culture and these you know almost like you know shared words and slangs and
00:35:08.740
and things and and you know that's really cool that that you know that that's you know
00:35:12.680
the level to which culture can be created and you know online is pretty amazing but
00:35:16.700
it i i think it until it really reaches the in-person level it's you know all it kind of
00:35:24.860
subject to to that real life interaction because you know again like i said you can meet a guy who's
00:35:30.740
really really cool um you know online and you know you find out he's a jerk in real life or or he
00:35:36.840
he's a mess his life isn't together at all and you know he's you know he's got all these other
00:35:41.460
issues that you know he's kind of hidden in the background online uh you know so you know i think
00:35:47.140
that uh to really know someone i think you have to spend time with them in person and that takes a
00:35:52.020
lot of hard work and the online thing like it's easy to step out right you can say i belong to this
00:35:56.040
group but like you can just go silent for a week two weeks and oh yeah no one's yeah and again i
00:36:02.380
think you know that's that's the thing with tribes it all comes back to a shared fate
00:36:05.480
and if you know if you can't step out if you really have to answer to that person
00:36:10.280
and that's why i'll probably write something about this at some point if one of my my guys from my
00:36:15.240
tribe doesn't beat me to it he's my buddy paul wagner has been putting out a lot of great
00:36:20.080
youtube videos about the tribe and he's been running our tribe for 10 years you know with it with his
00:36:25.700
brother so uh you know he he knows a lot about it and he's had to deal with a lot of this stuff
00:36:31.060
and uh you know i think uh one of the things that really made a difference for me personally
00:36:35.920
is the oath uh you know if you take an oath to something you have to deal with that and in many
00:36:42.580
ways my writing has been a series of oaths uh because you know i have to kind of stand by my
00:36:47.440
words i can't be you know i'm like well i said this is what people should do so now i actually have
00:36:52.380
to do it and uh sometimes that sucks and i so i kind of hold myself accountable to things that i've
00:36:57.560
written and in the same way like an oath is uh you know you have men are men are pretty good at
00:37:02.900
realizing that yeah i said this thing so i kind of have to stand by it or figure out a way that i
00:37:07.760
don't have to and uh uh you know i think uh there's a bunch if there's a bunch of guys who are going to
00:37:13.540
hold you accountable to that oath that's a big difference from kind of this kind of uh
00:37:18.420
superficial transient relationship that a lot of people have where they're just kind of they
00:37:23.380
go in and out of social circles whether online or in real life people always
00:37:27.540
say oh i have my mom boys i have my buddies and whatever it's like you you know are they really
00:37:33.160
going to be there for you i mean yeah you're that's your drinking buddy or that's your watching
00:37:37.620
sports buddy or whatever but uh you know they can back out because they don't have a reason why they
00:37:42.920
can't yeah and i think the oath is a is a good reason why they can't i mean i've i've already been
00:37:48.700
called into some situations that i was like i would not be in by choice but uh you know it's like well
00:37:54.220
i said i was going to be there so i'm there you're there yeah that's some heavy stuff um so
00:37:59.880
you know throughout the book you call uh modern culture the empire of nothing which sounds
00:38:05.560
completely i guess is why the the guy who said this book is depressing one of the reasons why
00:38:10.880
he probably says depressing so why do you call modern culture an empire of nothing uh because
00:38:16.840
there's a there's a lack of positive identity uh as much as anything uh uh because we don't have
00:38:23.520
that tribalism there is no they talk about modern modern culture i'm like well what is that uh there
00:38:27.880
is no culture really uh it's just a series of kind of products you know whether entertainment products
00:38:33.140
or whatever that we string together and and and that's kind of you know tv shows and so forth or what
00:38:38.860
we all have in common but we don't have a a shared identity uh you know we have a bunch of
00:38:43.840
many identities that are you know flexible and you can do away with and so you know like
00:38:48.680
that's what i mean by an empire of nothing like it's an empire without identity uh you know in the
00:38:54.100
way the roman empire you know started in rome it's a it's a roman culture and even though they
00:39:00.540
assimilated a lot of different groups of people they maintained that central culture you knew you were
00:39:06.920
a subject of rome and what what it meant to be roman and uh there was a roman culture that went with
00:39:12.680
that package and uh i feel like america to a certain extent i mean that's what we what we share
00:39:18.280
with the world and that's that's that's you know the wrong use of we for me but uh you know what
00:39:24.320
what americans share with the world is that uh they you know it's just a consumer culture in many ways
00:39:31.980
and it's yeah i always say that it's a lot of negative negative rights like well we don't do this
00:39:39.040
and we don't do that and we don't do that but uh and so it's like there is no one religion there is
00:39:44.540
no one culture there is no one single thing that can define it uh and so it just becomes kind of this
00:39:51.540
uh things it's very very malleable and very subject to consumer interest as we talked about identity
00:39:57.240
earlier um you know this culture that's spreading really isn't everything anything it just tries to be
00:40:04.460
everything to everyone and uh to actually have an identity to say like you know like the the italians
00:40:10.280
or the the french uh you know to have a culture like that you need to be separate because it can't
00:40:16.600
just be everything in the way that a word to have a definition it you know to have a definition a word
00:40:23.120
has to be not something else you know it has to have a boundary like a word can't mean everything or
00:40:29.040
anything that you want it to mean it's just it means one thing and uh you know it that's why i mean
00:40:36.460
that's why i'm getting at is nothing you're like we if you can't say these people are in and these
00:40:41.820
people are out then you don't actually have a culture you have just this growing kind of
00:40:48.040
mass of you know human flesh the monoculture so i mean like exactly when you when you read your
00:40:56.140
stuff jackson you get someone can get the impression that like you're like against modern
00:41:01.080
civilization completely right but like you know modern civilization is allowing us to create do
00:41:06.960
skype do this conversation um it's allowed both of us to get our writings out to people in a very
00:41:11.760
unrestricted way and so on so i mean is civilization all bad or like so i mean what's the approach of a
00:41:17.900
guy like who wants to sort of take this you know tribal mentality like they want to have a group where
00:41:22.780
they're not they create a a group culture that that means something but while still living in
00:41:29.920
modern society and enjoying its benefits well yeah i mean that's the point i mean you can't escape
00:41:36.420
modern society uh they'll find you with a drone it's it's uh there is nowhere to go uh we have drones
00:41:43.500
and satellites and and uh i think i said in the book at some point like if you run off into the wilderness
00:41:49.080
somewhere there's really no guarantee that they're not going to set up condos you know a mile from
00:41:54.740
where you set up your little shangri-la where you hide from the world uh there there's no way to escape
00:42:00.320
modernity and that's what a lot of people you know then say it's hypocritical oh well you use technology
00:42:06.380
uh or this and that i'm not against technology i mean a bow and arrow is technology uh we've always
00:42:12.360
had technology and i and i wrote about this in the way of men a little bit uh you know masculinity has
00:42:16.200
always been kind of in conflict with how much technology is too much uh how much technology
00:42:20.840
makes us weak and uh you know how how to become too reliant on it um and that's always a you know
00:42:28.080
debate that men have had but uh in terms of how much civilization is too much i feel like uh you know
00:42:35.680
there's a sweet spot and i think we're far past it i think most people are far far uh past that sweet
00:42:42.200
spot uh you know i think the the government governments are far too intrusive and so forth
00:42:46.380
um and and in order for that to change it'll have to switch the other way and uh you know that'll be
00:42:53.260
uncomfortable uh but uh in terms of you know you know civilization itself isn't isn't always bad
00:43:01.200
like i said there's a sweet spot um but uh in terms of technology i feel like you have to use
00:43:07.220
the tools that you have to create the world that you want and uh you know so you don't you can't be
00:43:14.960
one of these guys who like well that's part of the modern world so i won't touch that because it's
00:43:19.100
always going to be very cherry-picked anyway i mean everything you have comes to you from the modern
00:43:24.360
world unless you live on some homestead somewhere and even that you bought all the stuff that you
00:43:29.140
started the homestead with from the modern world there's no way to not do that so it's it's kind of
00:43:33.720
ridiculous so what you need to do is choose what is important to you and what what you know has the
00:43:39.200
values of your group and then use these other tools that modernity offers and realize the way
00:43:43.920
the world actually works and use them to your advantage rather than to your disadvantage you
00:43:49.540
know rather than uh allowing you know people want to be pure of the the contagion of modernity and
00:43:57.240
you know that that puts them at a disadvantage and then they just kind of like become hermits
00:44:01.960
right and uh you know then they're just going to be another you know hermit that's forgotten and no
00:44:06.920
one cares about uh so if you want to actually make an impact on the world and and you know do something
00:44:12.200
make your make your tribe glorious uh as as we would say uh you know you you have to use the tools that
00:44:18.760
are available to you i mean yeah i mean i i'm my skill set is very modern in some ways i mean i am
00:44:24.760
really good at the adobe suite and and uh you know i mean that's stuff that i i can nerd out on a
00:44:30.540
computer all day long but uh you know at the end of the day i mean that's how i make my t-shirts i
00:44:35.400
mean i haven't even like you know i'm against globalism and people would say that this is
00:44:39.760
hypocritical but uh you know i'm i'm for my tribe and uh you know because my tribe is what matters to
00:44:45.940
me um you know i i don't care where my products come from you know like i'm gonna get the best deal
00:44:52.040
so i can put the most money back into my tribe and uh that's at the end of the day i think that's
00:44:56.840
what's most important to me uh is uh is uh helping those you know i tried to to create the world that
00:45:03.140
we want to live in and you know use the money to buy property and and hang out right i mean this
00:45:09.300
sounds like very like a very amish approach i think you know a lot of people have this misconception
00:45:13.000
about the amish like they're completely anti-technology they're not like they've
00:45:16.660
incorporated modern technology into their their culture but like they're just very intentional
00:45:21.360
about like they'll think about it a lot and say will this negatively affect our way of life
00:45:28.320
if not we'll use it um and if it you know if there's a chance it could negatively affect our
00:45:33.740
way of life like they'll put like serious rules about how you use i mean you don't have to get
00:45:38.000
bonkers like it like that but like i think just being intentional right about that's that's a great
00:45:42.780
way to think about it yeah i mean uh you know it's like is this is this harming us or hurting us
00:45:47.820
you know and and and so many i mean that's that's you know discussion about facebook i mean uh facebook
00:45:53.180
and social media is this is this good uh is this you know is this making me a better person or that's
00:45:59.920
why i like instagram better but they're all by the same people so it's not like i'm you know you're
00:46:05.240
not escaping them i'm not escaping them i just like this group this this particular platform is you know
00:46:12.380
better for me right now and you know it kind of highlights the the things that are you know
00:46:16.880
fun and important to me that you know the culture that i'm kind of trying to spread in the world
00:46:21.340
yeah and so you know you just make choices about what's what's working for you and what's you know
00:46:26.180
you know what's working from a business perspective what's working from for a personal
00:46:30.460
perspective what makes you a better person and you know what's dragging you down into cycles of
00:46:35.740
emoting about things that don't matter and and or you know like just hurting you in other ways
00:46:40.660
right be intentional because i think most people just don't even think about it they're just like
00:46:43.580
oh everyone else is doing so i'll i'll do it too yeah yeah yeah like i was intentional about
00:46:48.620
snapchat i i i looked at it and i tried it yeah i tried i'm like how can i make this work for me and
00:46:53.360
i'm like i got nothing yeah i i no uh i'm like this is stupid i hate it that's dude that's that's
00:46:59.000
how i felt like i tried it too everyone's like yeah get on snapchat snapchat so like i got it and
00:47:02.320
like i i just i feel weird like just like talking into the camera i was like this now i can't do this
00:47:08.880
yeah yeah yeah i mean occasionally i could see a purpose for it and instagram just stole their
00:47:13.060
features anyway so right uh you know what i guess i i i'll use it in that way whenever
00:47:18.040
possible whenever you're possible yeah i tried that out and i still i'm like this is this kind
00:47:22.000
of weird i don't know something about it's weird i can't i can't put my finger on anyways that's
00:47:26.040
that's a little too reality tv for me but yeah right there i like to know what i'm saying or why i'm
00:47:30.900
doing it when i do it but uh i guess i guess you know i should be more anti-fragile and
00:47:34.760
embrace the chaos embrace it um so i mean there's if there's a guy listening to this and they're like
00:47:41.300
yeah you know i have this itch for camaraderie community tribe you know having a gang i mean
00:47:48.260
how do they go about it i mean like what do they build a tribe around i mean is it an activity is it
00:47:54.300
or is it a set of ideals faith um you know what do you build the tribe around well i i think i think
00:48:02.800
all those things a lot of people you know and it's getting a very american way of thinking is
00:48:07.700
that uh you know it you know all those things don't matter it's just whether we like each other
00:48:11.940
and we're friends well they kind of does i mean because when you talk about you know philosophy
00:48:16.580
or religion all those things have to they determine what your idea of good is and how you're going to
00:48:21.780
make decisions and what's important to you so i think that you really have to find people
00:48:25.640
who share those values or who are willing to say okay that that's fine that's close enough
00:48:31.400
and and that's a lot of what joining a tribe involves i mean you're going to have to say
00:48:35.280
that's fine that's close enough it's not going to be perfect nothing's perfect uh you know you're
00:48:40.200
just going to have to you know get involved and you know you know if there's things that are slightly
00:48:44.960
off you either you adjust to them or you know try and you know like uh you know adapt to them in
00:48:50.620
any way that you can but uh you know yeah you got to look for people who have similar values and and a lot
00:48:57.140
people also you got to avoid the little you know the mini kind of hitler thing you know where you
00:49:03.320
always have the guy who wants to be the leader real bad and that's why he wants to have a tribe
00:49:07.140
is to be the leader and uh you know that's kind of the that's always going to be a bad leader
00:49:12.160
right right and uh and uh so i mean you have to you know find people with the right skills to do the
00:49:18.040
right job and uh you know you know the people who want to be part of something and they want to
00:49:23.740
create something they have to commit to this kind of this similar vision of what this tribe
00:49:27.940
could be and uh the other thing that the problem that they they run into is that they try to
00:49:32.620
um over plan like what what is our great society gonna look like and uh you know you're gonna hit a
00:49:39.600
lot of bumps along the road until you get to your magical society where everything is perfect so
00:49:45.300
you know you just have to kind of have a shared vision and uh you know kind of like the same things
00:49:49.840
and you know as important as anything it's like when we're looking at prospects uh you know in my
00:49:55.000
chapter out here uh we uh you know it's like do i like hanging out with this guy that's also hugely
00:50:01.800
important it's like there are a lot of people that maybe share our values but you know if you don't
00:50:06.460
like them then you know you're just gonna not like them even more when they're when you're oath to
00:50:14.200
them forever right uh so uh you know you have to actually you know like you know surround yourself
00:50:19.780
with people whose company you enjoy as well which is a big point i think a lot of people trying to
00:50:23.860
force it too quick and uh you know you can't you don't make friends overnight and uh so you know
00:50:30.680
maybe you just have two or three friends that you just start your thing with and you don't try to
00:50:34.780
start a group but you know that's a dunbar's number yet you know you don't go out to 150 or whatever
00:50:40.120
uh you know you just have to slowly build and build those friendships and and uh decide what
00:50:45.940
you want together uh and you know it's it's everybody wants to like how can i you know sign
00:50:50.880
up tomorrow or how can i uh you know start this you know and have a tribe by next week you know
00:50:56.180
it's a lot of work i can tell you like i i think we we talked earlier and i said uh you know it takes
00:51:01.820
i i about five full days a month uh is probably what i put in right now to you know
00:51:09.880
run and to you know and and talk you know and deal with the tribe and the logistics and what
00:51:15.300
everybody needs and where everybody's going to be and so-and-so lost their job and so-and-so just
00:51:19.560
got a job and so-and-so just moved and you know we have to help this guy and you know there's a lot
00:51:24.560
of work that is involved in being part of a tribe so you have to be willing to do that work and and uh
00:51:29.700
it takes a lot of time it doesn't happen overnight and uh most people aren't going to have that kind
00:51:33.920
of commitment and if you find the people who do um you're lucky yeah yeah that's that's cool
00:51:39.640
um and it's like what do you like what do they do when they get together it's just like they i mean
00:51:43.860
you said like don't base around just an activity but like guys like when they get together they like
00:51:47.380
to do stuff oh yeah i mean that's that's super important uh yeah i mean uh i you know i think
00:51:54.840
we've probably both read most of the same books uh you know you know men bond you know when they're
00:52:00.000
aggressing against something or you know creating something or building something uh you know shoulder
00:52:04.800
to shoulder and uh i think that uh you know creating a project like that i mean it's you
00:52:10.160
know it's it's easy you know if you have some kind of training thing like obviously like i've done a
00:52:13.340
lot of tactical training and and uh and so forth although you don't want to say you're starting
00:52:17.620
militia because that's kind of bad but uh that's kind of creates trouble but uh you know you know you
00:52:24.700
get together you know with your guys and and work on some training things uh you work on uh you know
00:52:29.380
like you know learning some some fighting skills maybe um i mean a lot of what we've been doing
00:52:34.820
because we've had you know opportunity to to construct some things on on land and make the
00:52:39.440
land better a lot of us you know we're just i get guys who'll just show up and we'll work all day
00:52:44.460
you know you know putting down mulch or moving we need a path over here we need this we need to
00:52:49.320
create this so that when people come they have somewhere to sit you know stuff like that uh you know
00:52:53.760
that brings people together because they're all working together constantly and you know funny stuff
00:52:57.180
if things happen when you work together and you react to each other in a certain way and i think
00:53:00.920
that that that definitely helps helps people bond so you know it's not going to be the same like i
00:53:06.120
said that there is no template but uh you know if based on what your values are what do you want to
00:53:11.500
create and uh you know the more i i know paul wagner always says you know you need you need land you
00:53:18.320
need a space you need somewhere to go that isn't uh uh that doesn't belong to somebody else you know and
00:53:23.860
everything really belongs to something else they belongs to the bank of the government really
00:53:26.920
but uh you know as much as you can possibly own something in this world um you know you need
00:53:32.860
you need to find a space and and organize your resources in order to do that and that's a project
00:53:37.180
in itself all right so uh you know you know it's for everybody's going to be different obviously a
00:53:41.420
religious group's going to try and build something at church uh you know we we kind of have something
00:53:45.540
similar going on with ours but we also want a place where we can train and and and all kinds of
00:53:49.540
things so you have to you find out what the priorities of your group are and you know start the
00:53:55.360
project and in many ways that's going to be uh the way you bond what you don't want and i think that
00:54:00.280
this is a big pitfall with a lot of people is that uh it's really easy to start a drinking club
00:54:04.880
right and uh you know and that can be part of it i mean that's men have been doing that for
00:54:10.300
all of history and that's cool but uh it has to be more than that otherwise you just have a drinking
00:54:16.100
club you know you just have the guys that you get drunk with and that's not really um you know
00:54:21.040
terribly productive in and of itself uh so you need to have something beyond that uh to do you
00:54:29.160
know together gotcha all right so i guess things to kind of summarize like get started just do
00:54:33.340
something little steps expect it to be hard you don't have to have the plan the grand plan from the
00:54:40.540
get-go it sort of develops organically right yes yes absolutely okay so i mean okay let's talk
00:54:46.160
about this so i i think i mean i had sebastian younger on the podcast came out this new book
00:54:50.720
tribe and he talks about all these psychological sociological benefits that come from being
00:54:56.120
embedded in a tightly knit community like people are less crazy uh you're happier etc etc but i think
00:55:03.340
it's often easy too to overlook some of the downsides of being in a community you kind of hit on this a
00:55:07.960
little bit you know there's friction there's going to be conflict people annoy you it's like family
00:55:12.760
right oh yeah it's absolutely like family so i mean how do uh what's the best way i mean how do
00:55:18.480
i mean how do you guys manage or like how should guys manage this friction effectively because like
00:55:22.820
in most if you belong to like some sort of group like you can if you don't like it you just
00:55:26.720
you bounce out like there's no commitment so you just stop going um so how do you what do you do
00:55:32.540
to ensure that doesn't happen well you know i mean it's like a relationship you have to want to be
00:55:37.080
there you know i and uh you know if you if you all have the commitment that we're doing this thing
00:55:43.120
then you have to work out your problems you know you have to actually you know and then some you know
00:55:49.420
some something will come up and uh someone does leave i mean it happens but uh you know we've you
00:55:57.700
know we've have guys that you know a lot a lot of that that's what i've done kind of a lot as a
00:56:03.240
leader in our group is is uh is kind of deal with conflicts you know like what are you like try and
00:56:10.860
you know make everybody understand each other like these guys are getting kind of you know this this
00:56:15.560
guy is getting mad at this guy and i can see it and uh so they're going to need to find some common
00:56:20.720
ground here pretty quick or that's they're going to have a problem uh and and that's a lot of what
00:56:25.420
you have to do is uh kind of figure out manage those conflicts and and and uh you know find a way
00:56:33.260
to be in it together and like you said it's the same as a family i mean you know any family you're
00:56:39.600
going to have like well you know uncle bob's doing his thing again right but so we're just going to
00:56:46.800
wait this out because it'll be done in a little while and uh you know everybody everybody has their
00:56:51.880
thing you know everybody has something that they do that's going to annoy other people or something
00:56:55.840
that you know that people don't like about them and so you know you just have to accept that not
00:56:59.860
everyone's perfect and they're all going to have their own little quirks and and kind of put it in
00:57:03.400
in a bigger perspective as long as that commitment's there uh you know you make it work like i said it's
00:57:08.840
like a relationship or like a marriage i mean you have to have that commitment uh to to the final
00:57:13.740
you know the goal uh to belonging to that that relationship or that marriage or that that tribe
00:57:19.880
and uh when you do then you have to just find ways to work it out and it's going to be different for
00:57:24.940
everybody but uh you know you have to be wary of you know conflicts before they get to the worst
00:57:30.880
possible point right all right so take again it takes work this is not this is not for the faint of
00:57:36.000
heart no no no i mean it's like i said it's it's at least a part-time job yeah well cool hey jack
00:57:42.860
this has been a great conversation where can people uh get the book oh the new book uh just uh on amazon
00:57:48.420
and uh you know i have uh occasionally i put up signed copies and and so forth through my uh
00:57:54.180
my new uh company it's called brutal co uh brutal company so brutalco.com and uh you know obviously
00:58:01.720
jack-johnovan.com is where you know you find all kinds of news about what i'm doing and since we
00:58:06.560
talked about instagram uh uh it's it's uh at start the world at start the world yeah and you can see
00:58:12.420
jack's luscious garden backyard farm it's like punching things shooting things gardening gardening
00:58:20.260
and then you were telling earlier you were canning earlier today yes yeah yeah yeah maybe i'll put
00:58:24.980
some pictures of canning up today i don't know i just did a bunch of that i mean uh you know it's
00:58:29.140
all part of the you know learning you know how the world really works right being self-sufficient
00:58:33.660
well hey jack thanks so much for your time it's been a pleasure all right man thanks my guest
00:58:37.500
is jack donovan he's the author of the books the way of men and becoming a barbarian they're
00:58:41.260
available on amazon.com also check out the show notes at aom.is slash barbarian for links to
00:58:47.780
well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice
00:59:00.480
make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com our show is edited
00:59:04.660
by creative audio lab here in tulsa oklahoma if your needs audio editing needs or audio production
00:59:09.360
needs check them out at creativeaudiolab.com as always i appreciate your continued support and
00:59:14.320
until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay manly