#245： The Workout the World Forgot
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 3 minutes
Words per Minute
162.19814
Summary
MoveNap is a fitness program inspired by the same sort of physical training the ancient Greeks and Romans used and revitalized in the 19th century by physical culturists like george hebert with his book The Natural Method. The philosophy behind MoveNap is simple: humans intrinsically know how to physically move their bodies and have an itch to do so in a variety of ways, but our sedentary lifestyle and even the way we exercise today has caused us to forget how to move efficiently and proficiently.
Transcript
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brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast so back in 2013
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i got an email from a french guy named erwan liqueur he said he was the founder of something
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called move nap and wanted to write an article for us about how to do things like lift and carry
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a log efficiently what move nap is is a fitness program inspired by the same sort of physical
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training the ancient greeks and romans used and revitalized in the 19th century by physical
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culturists like george arbert with his book the natural method and the philosophy behind move
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nap is simple humans intrinsically know how to physically move their bodies and have an itch
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to do so in a variety of ways but our sedentary lifestyle and even the way we exercise today
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has caused us to forget how to move efficiently and proficiently move nap can help you solve that
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and relearn these basic movements so today on the show i talked to the founder of move nap erwan
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liqueur and move nap performance director danny clark about what move nap is the sort of things
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you're going to do in move nap the classical inspiration behind it and how it can help you
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to become strong to be useful after the show is over check out the show notes at aom.is
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slash move nap where you find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic
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erwan liqueur and danny clark welcome to the show thanks for having us good morning brett
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all right so erwan you are the founder of move nap and danny you're the performance director there
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helping develop curriculum for move nap and we've uh erwan you've actually written a few articles for
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the art of manliness about natural movement the history of physical fitness so i'm sure a lot of
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our listeners are familiar with your work and what move nap is but uh for those who aren't familiar
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with move nap um can you give us sort of the history of it like how did you create this system
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of physical fitness what's the inspiration behind it it's a mix uh it's a mix of my personal experience
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and and training and it's uh also inspired by ancient um physical culture physical uh training
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systems in europe uh but namely and and especially uh what's called the natural method
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precisely it's it was called a physical virile and moral education by the natural method and this
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system was founded officially in 1905 by a french navy officer called george hebert and um
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his idea was that uh people had to be physically and mentally ready for the demands of the the real
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world um so the training was based on practical natural movements that that are necessary to respond
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physically in the real world and the motto of this method was to be strong to be useful
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um so that's my main influence though with the move that method we've made a number of substantial
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improvements to those ancient ancient methods and that's interesting i mean we you've written about
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george hebert uh on the site before he's a really fascinating character um in the the the system of
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cultural or physical culture that he developed i mean why did he feel it was necessary to like develop
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this and promote it um was there some sort of what was going on in the history at at the time
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in france and around the world where he said like yeah we need to teach people how to walk how to run
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because not too surprisingly um back then that's uh more than a hundred years ago
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people were already uh dealing with the some of the same issues that modern populations
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deal with which is a lack of physical uh like a physical training like of movement and all the
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the consequences on health um on fitness that this implies uh back then you know um it was after the
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industrial revolution so people already were massively transitioning from um living in in on farms in the rural
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world to living in cities with much less movement with and and the pollution already and uh
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food started to become different and so altogether there was already a movement uh towards somewhat
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returning back to nature already back then and returning to nature was also about returning to more
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natural uh behaviors so natural movement so that's that's what that was one of these um
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uh main preoccupation but also he had a very uh important event in his life where he had to rescue
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uh hundreds of people with this with his team with his crew when he was in the navy after the
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eruption of a volcano and what what he noticed is that a lot of people were unable to help themselves
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they could not run uh they they they were not fit enough and then his crew was trained by him
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and they were able to save a number of people so that idea of being strong to be useful
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uh was very important so uh to wrap that up his mission was to educate people to make sure that
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that populations back then uh were physically fit and ready for the demands of the real world
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and so to that end what sort of skills was he trying to impart with his natural method
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all the movement skills that are necessary when well when shit hits the fan basically that's
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that's when you uh that's when difficult circumstances arise that you realize how vital it becomes to be
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able to run fast or run for distance or to climb something high or to lift and carry something or somebody
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heavy um and then jump and balance and do all those movements that are they're natural but that are
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for the most part forgotten in um in people's daily life all right so uh you you took that sort of idea
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that georgia i was gonna say jorge i was about to say do the spanish georgias um um did with the
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natural method and created the move nat system and adapted it um so we'll go to danny on this one so
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danny what are what are the the big philosophical and practical principles of move now what are you trying to
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do with this system um well move nat is about developing the lost art of physical competence
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through these natural patterns that erwan's mentioning um you know in our modern day
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environments of just cars and stairs and chairs we've sort of eliminated the need to be physically
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capable but the thing is our bodies need stimulation for ultimately for uh to thrive and that's what
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this is about um we restore natural movements in a you know a more progressive systematic way um but
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we still can't deny that movements essentially and fundamentally is our interaction with our
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environment so um when we think about um you know our culture now we're taught to specialize so early
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um you know either through sports or academics or we're taught to be basically sedentary
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um so people never really get the chance to develop these broad-based like unspecialized move
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unspecialized movement skill sets that we from evolutionary perspective um used to develop it was
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essential for our survival so through this practice um we try to help we work on helping people escape
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this you know this vicious cycle of sedentary living that we're seeing in modern day um by learning
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skills that also have direct practical application to their their modern day lives so um you know it's not
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just about these big um survival situations i think that we the most important thing is to create a base
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of movement skills um that set us up to be able to do these high level skills but also directly impact
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our everyday lives so building efficiency um in in movements so that we can instead of avoiding and
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being afraid of movements um we can actually become very efficient to movement so that we're actually
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expending less energy to do the things that we do every day whether it even just be getting up off
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the ground um running upstairs um carrying things lifting things playing with our children if we can
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expend half the effort or even less doing this um you know moving becomes less of a intimidating prospect
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and um helps we can help penetrate people's lives a little bit um better so overall you know move
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that is about developing sort of these timeless classical skills um that's again directly relate
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to survival situations but also um really adding meaning to fitness um and exercise for for anybody um
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not just 20 year olds but anybody from anybody that's human right and it's not just in what i love
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about moving out too it's you focus on these really basic skills we'll talk about what these basic skills
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are but it's also getting people back into the wild and like encountering their environment in a more
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thoughtful way like you want to get out there and see that tree and be like if that's not just a tree
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it's like a tree i could climb in a certain way and let's see how efficient i can be at climbing that tree
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sure and i mean it's just remembering that you know uh our ability to climb for example uh isn't
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something that we're just born with it's something that's that's learned we have to have a reason
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um you know our body is a system of overlapping systems um strength conditioning perceptual abilities
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all this this um these dozens of systems that occur and our system has to interact with our outside
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environment which is a bigger system um and in that interaction movement emerges um these patterns
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like crawling like climbing um happen but in our modern day environment without the stimulus to
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the or any reasons to actually use these patterns they they degrade over time uh when we were young
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we used to do this stuff all the time um but we that doesn't necessarily mean we developed it very well
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um maybe enough to uh you know get get by in our environment um at a fundamental level
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but now you know we we enter school and um we're never really given the stimulus to really
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to really build our ability to move well so um yeah i think it's about it's certainly about being
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able to climb a tree but i think it's also about all the whole spectrum of movement that that we're not
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really doing right now um that includes lifting but it's not exclusive to just lifting weights or
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running it's really everything right right it's those things we take for granted um so erwan in the
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article you wrote for us a couple years ago about introducing people to uh move nat you made the
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argument that uh physical fitness kind of got off track so you know uh the natural method this this
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was part of a larger uh sort of emergence of physical culture in the west right this is when uh barbell
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training started got it start kettlebell training bodybuilding got it start and um you know indian clubs all
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that stuff and that's kind of where it's led to this physical this physical fitness industry that
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we have today but you argue that the physical fitness industry got off track at what at one point
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the physical uh industry at some point got off track in the sense that it forgot what the body the
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human body is naturally capable of and actually the fundamental what i believe is a fundamental and
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universal reason for physical training which is again um real uh real competency physical competency and
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preparedness for the real world that's the foundation to us and um all the rest is great but it's um
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it's on top of that it's it's optional it's accessory what is not accessory is your ability to operate your
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body in useful ways and when i say useful um like danny said we are talking about the day-to-day movements and
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we are also talking about your ability to respond to more challenging situations to help yourself and to
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potentially help others and to at least never be helpless to yourself and others so that's
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that's a principle that's a fundamental principle now so we when you look at the evolution of physical
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training in history and this used to be the the rule that's what people were looking for primarily it's
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it's it's that physical competency and preparedness for the real world uh but then it became
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a lot about what you look like looking fit not making sure that you are fit in the sense of again
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being able to respond efficiently and effectively to the demands of the real life but to just look
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fit which is very different so from the primary goal of being physically ready for the real life
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um the whole industry of fitness has developed towards looking fit but not having any preoccupation about
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making sure that you are fit that you are physically competent and ready for the real life which is very
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different and it's not just a change in in goals uh and in expectations because the change in in goals
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induced a complete change in methodologies used to reach these goals so when you want to train to be ready
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for the real life you realize that you must be able to jump you must be able to lift and carry and throw
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and catch you must be able to run and to climb uh and even to to defend yourself you must be able to
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to perform all these fundamental universal natural movement skills but when you train for looking fit
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um the methodologies that are you are going to employ to reach uh the the cosmetic standards that you are
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looking for a certain way of the the body to look like then again the methods you're going to employ
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they they they tend towards that goal and that's when you end up with muscle isolation and
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a whole lot of of machines uh designed to shape your movement and shape your body in a certain way
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and that's when we indeed have completely completely lost track with the original intent of movement which is
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and the original intent of the body which is uh practical movement and um and this is not to say that
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move that is not interested in the beauty uh the appeal of an athletic looking uh body um it's just that
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this is the outcome of how we move and train uh it's a natural movement is going to sculpt natural bodies
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um and natural looking bodies that are much more balanced than that when you try to isolate
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the body in parts as if it was made up of of parts the body is not made up of parts the body is a whole
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unit and it's supposed supposed to function as a unit as as well so um we are trying to bring the
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industry back towards the fundamental of of movement in the body right and so any uh oh go ahead danny
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oh i was just going to say to add to that um you know i've been a trainer for a very long time and i
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i think i've seen overall a shift maybe not in the total mainstream but um it's sort of the um
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the more you know some some segmented communities in the fitness industry a shift away from purely
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aesthetic and a little bit more to functional you know than this whole functional fitness
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sort of craze that came about with kettlebells and crossfit and all these other tools so
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um and even just strength training and i think i think all that that's part of the industry has
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evolved a little bit um although again i don't think it's fully penetrated uh the masses but um
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i still see a lot of isolation in that so okay we're not isolating our biceps anymore but we're
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still just trying to isolate systems now we're isolating strength okay and now well i have strength
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but now i don't have mobility so now i need to isolate mobility oh well now i need to isolate
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conditioning or now i need to isolate my brain and figure out how to piece that all into the puzzle
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so we have this really compartmentalized view of fitness and this sort of stems from um you know
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the the therapeutic end of it so trying to restore function like so it makes sense for a physical
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therapist to isolate um a particular body part or a system um or an athletic setting and definitely
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trying to isolate a particular system to play it up um but the people that get lost in that are the
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ones you know the average people the people that are really really movement deficient so none of these
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systems are functioning optimally or really to any respectable level um or any level that would
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represent thriving in this world so um trying to compartmentalize and just isolate systems becomes
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okay now i do strength i do yoga i do this and we're trying to just throw it all together but really
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there's dozens of systems involved in the in the physiology of your body so what move that is is
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decompartmentalizing um functional fitness and turning it into something practical something
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natural something where strength conditioning mobility all these things are in a nice organic
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balance um and uh it becomes much more efficient so that the people who need it the most especially
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those that are past their 30s can really reap the benefits of all these benefits of our entire system
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improving um without the need to become a master of really anything um again that that specialization
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layer can be added and there's nothing wrong with it but moving that really represents the base of
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movement that we all should have and um that's that's really what it's about so yeah let's go back to this
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idea of of looking fit and being fit so i'm sure you all in your teaching have encountered um people
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from all walks of life and fitness levels and i'm sure you've encountered people who looked like super
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ripped like they're jacked had chiseled abs like they just they looked like they were fit but any of
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those people you've encountered like when you actually put them you know to the test like they
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actually didn't have fitness as as a martial artist i could say i see that all the time um i've been a
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wrestler and a jiu-jitsu um fighter for a very long time and that's sort of the classic joke is when the
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the uh bodybuilder or the crossfitter steps into the jiu-jitsu mats and is actually asked to perform
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a task that's outside their their training and that high level of fitness or the look of fitness
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they've achieved really means absolutely nothing and when when asked to do something and i would say uh
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erwan has probably seen lots of this um i witnessed it when i met him and we had an entire group of
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people uh some of them looked incredibly fit and we you know struggled to do very very basic tasks
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i've seen this over and over um and i remember my very first uh workshops in the woods of uh west
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virginia in 2009 and uh uh groups made of diverse people some didn't do any kind of training others were
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uh back then already into crossfit or or other fitness modalities but everybody had their challenges
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everybody and including those who did look very fit and that's um
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again it's a beautiful thing to look to look great to look fit to look athletic and there's really
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nothing wrong about it but you don't want to uh get lost into self-flattery and also a false sense of
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physical competency just because you can do a number of pull-ups or you can sprint those are that's great
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these are our aspects of physical competency that are very important but for instance just because you can do
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say 20 pull-ups in a row doesn't mean that you know the diverse techniques to climb on top of the bar
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where you hang from and that's just one example if you apply that to say jumping you can jump up and
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down a box forever for time for stamina awesome but can you do can you perform that single
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that single shot that single jump between those two rocks with be able to cross the distance and land with
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accuracy and and with balance because that's also part of physical competency and this is also jumping
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and there are many other ways that you can jump that are that are not just jumping up and down a box
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um that idea that you are able to jump anything because you can do those 100 jumps on the box on the box or
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you can climb anything because you can do those 20 pull-ups in a row on a bar
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this again is can easily give you a false sense of physical competency but it's only a limited competency
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that you have and you need to open your mind and open your your training to many more uh aspects of of
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competency and the the necessary adaptability to varied um environmental or situational demands
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so let's talk about the specific skill we kind of we've been talking high level here what are some
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of what are the specific skills that you're trying to impart or reteach people with move net
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i think that it starts with with the basics um you know it's it's the very simple things that we again
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don't really our environment doesn't really dictate that we do very much anymore um but simple things
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like being able to sit on the ground and hold a position for you know 30 seconds or 10 minutes or
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whatever without your back cramping and without your neck aching um or having to switch positions
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a million times uh being able to get up off the ground very smoothly and easily um being able to
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crawl so a lot of the stuff that we start with um are things that um again you did when you were
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you know it's sort of your original um physical competence quest when you're a baby um but you know
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just because again you did it back then doesn't mean that you can do it now so much has been degraded
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over time that that really is the starting point the foundation um and then again it starts to move up
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uh in domains to some more advanced things um that's like balancing um and all the way to
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super high level things like again like vaulting and climbing you know a lot of people today have
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issues simply squatting uh squatting up uh and down and also uh just holding a deep squat for instance
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that's just one example of some of the limitations that most modern people face today um they would have
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problem hip hinging um which is also a fundamental movement patterns so when people have those two issues
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to begin with how are they going to be able to jump and land um properly efficiently and safely there's
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no way uh it's gonna be it's gonna be challenging so working on the fundamental movements uh is is
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essential to eventually be able to to be ready for the more explosive more demanding movements and also
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the more challenging environments so if i'll take the example of jumping for instance uh we're not
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going to ask you to jump right away uh between you know like clear an obstacle with the real elevation and
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no you you're going to start learning the technique at ground level on a short distance where it is uh easy and
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where you will uh first learn efficient and efficient pattern efficient technique then we will increase the
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intensity then we will increase the complexity or of the environment where you jump so there are progressions
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that are that are necessary uh so that people can learn actually faster than just uh trying the hard stuff
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right away and uh they also can do it um in a way that is safe for their body right and so it's not
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just crawling it's not just jumping i mean when i did the um seminar a few months ago like we dedicated
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a section to just how to hold things like heavy things efficiently which is something you don't you
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take for granted but like if you think about it's amazing if you actually take some time to think about it how
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you can position your body or your hands or your arms in a way where you can take this heavy odd object
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and make it actually comfortable to carry um it was amazing how much of a change that can happen
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have in your life that's the that's the beauty of technique and movement efficiency uh you know in
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the fitness industry or at least the what i like to call the old school fitness industry bodybuilding type
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and and and so on uh they make simple movement look complex and difficult like a biceps curls for
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instance like it looks like it you need a whole whole technique and a certain way to to do it which
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is in part true but come on that's a bicep curl right um but we make movement that are actually
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complex complex complex complex movement we make them look easy because of practicing efficiency
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which means to be really agile and and light and and accurate and smooth um but the truth is that
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those movements to look like this and feel like that um it requires practice and that's the difference
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between what i call primary nature the primary nature of movement which is that natural movement
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is innate in all of us and that's for sure we all have a certain ability to perform these movements
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that does not need to be taught however efficiency in these natural movements that what needs to be taught
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and learned or and trained uh consistently because this is not for granted and this is what surprises
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people when they're asked to do the simplest movements a simple get up you get up and get down from ground
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to standing standing to ground and then they realize that they are off balance they realize that they need
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their hands they realize that they are stiff all over they realize that they are holding their breath
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they realize that those movements they took for granted actually they haven't practiced them in years
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and they're not that good at it and those movements nonetheless are um essential to life
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they are your basic function actually uh there's a study that was uh done in brazil
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where um the ability to get down and get up from the ground without using your uh your knees and without
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using your hands especially was a predictor of life expectancy uh so if you were able uh to
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get up and get down without using your hands uh you had a longer life expectancy that people who had to
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use their hands and had trouble basically doing the movement and in fact it makes sense because from a
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biological standpoint why on earth would would you want to have a long life expectancy if your body is
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dysfunctional and the same is true with grip strength uh if you don't have the people who have greater
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grip strength the people who are in the hospital will get out of the hospital faster than the people who have
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weaker grip strength why on earth would you have greater health and and life expectancy if you don't have basic
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strength in your hands right so that's that it's all you know mobility balance coordination strength
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all of that is necessary for a body to be healthy to be truly functional and uh and to live long and to live
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with high quality so through those natural movements you restore that potential and then you maintain
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it for as long as you can right going on that study about mortality rates and be able to get off the
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ground i read another study or an article it's just talking about um one reason why people in japan might
00:31:29.460
live longer um than people say in america is that in japan the bed is usually on the floor right in
00:31:36.260
in the retirement homes like these old people in retirement homes homes are constantly having to
00:31:40.020
get up off the floor and they can do it because they they do it all the time and they have that
00:31:44.340
strength that coordination to do it but here in america it's like not like you might be in a bed that
00:31:49.700
sort of lifts you up you lift yourself out of the beds you don't use any of those muscles and so
00:31:53.780
the mortality rate increases because we've lost that ability to get off the ground exactly so it means that
00:32:00.260
your environment dictates your movement behavior so you have two choices here and actually they are
00:32:09.540
complementary one is that you can change your environment so you can go for less furniture or
00:32:16.660
different furniture so that at least your your day-to-day movements are changed they are they require
00:32:23.300
more range of motion they require more attention and effort on your part that's one way um but the
00:32:30.740
other way is to simply realize this okay um there's nothing in my in my life that demands that i run and
00:32:39.940
sprint that demand that i balance and jump that demand that i crawl low on the ground zero no i don't need it for food
00:32:47.300
to get my food to get my food i don't need it because there's no uh actual danger in my life or or
00:32:53.540
necessity like that and i don't make a living because uh i have to move in all these these ways however
00:33:04.180
i can devise a strategy um so that i make those movements um possible again and that's the idea is that
00:33:14.580
you want to have a vision of yourself of a person who has who possesses these skills that strength
00:33:23.380
those physical qualities and you need to to practice and even when the necessity to perform
00:33:31.780
these movements and these efforts is not there you are going to create uh even if it's just in your mind
00:33:39.620
the conditions so that you can have your body behave in the way it's supposed to behave and
00:33:47.860
that's natural movement and that's movement yeah i think this is super powerful for um you know again
00:33:53.620
i work with um an older population often and adding meaning to movements um that directly carry over to
00:34:01.780
their life such as getting up off the ground crawling um you know practicing these movements is life
00:34:08.740
changing um for them um you know uh and it's it can be and it's it's a base for anybody so actually we
00:34:16.580
have a uh of our uh team instructors uh cameron um he's based in houston and he he's been working with
00:34:24.420
a group of uh war veterans uh who are disabled who lost a limp um who served the country but uh then they
00:34:34.180
come back and their day-to-day life is completely changed because they their body is has changed and
00:34:41.220
um uh using the the move not uh methods and principles and techniques he's been able to teach these
00:34:50.980
these guys to be able to for instance get back to get down to the ground and back up on their own
00:34:59.060
um without uh assistance and that was again another life-changing uh experience or event in their lives
00:35:10.420
uh because that's autonomy and that's um that's a beautiful thing to see so um it doesn't matter
00:35:18.180
uh what are the conditions in your life that uh led you to uh to be either you know of a way or or
00:35:27.140
or dysfunctional um i mean life is not easy and it can really be harsh but what i want to express here
00:35:34.900
is that there are methods out there that exist that are going to re-empower you to support your
00:35:41.700
self-empowerment through movement through movement that is useful does not aim at making you look good
00:35:48.980
in the mirror but that that is designed to make you perform again and be empowered through sometimes
00:35:57.940
performing again the simplest movements yeah the uh getting up off the floor without using your hands
00:36:04.260
or knees that's not a joke like that is hard and you probably remember like it took me a while to get
00:36:10.340
that and it hurt like it was like because i hadn't done that in years but once i was able to do it it's
00:36:16.260
actually pretty cool it's like hey i don't i don't need a a chair i don't need a bed to get off the
00:36:21.700
ground i can just use my own two feet and make that make that get up i mean it's awesome yeah absolutely
00:36:29.700
and that's that's how it should be because when you can get up and off the ground more easily you're
00:36:34.740
more likely to get on the ground and you know again uh for some people being able to get on the ground
00:36:41.060
feel comfortable there is going to have them interact with their kids their grandkids more often
00:36:46.260
um and then for the young bucks who aren't really that motivated by these like sort of simple or um
00:36:54.260
what they would consider probably like old people stuff or whatever uh you know there's this whole
00:36:58.660
other layer and this is what is incredible about move net of these high level skills that are about
00:37:04.180
being helpful and useful um for survival situations and that's sort of what resonated with me
00:37:10.020
was okay i can use this professionally um and then i can i can benefit from this practice
00:37:15.140
personally there's this compelling um meaning to to my fitness it's not just about uh vanity it's not
00:37:22.820
just about a certain quantifying my fitness and hitting a certain number and now is about something
00:37:28.180
a little bit bigger than me um and and and for me that that gives me a lot of personal personal
00:37:33.700
satisfaction um it's very intuitive and it's uh it's it's a pretty cool thing it's an incredible movement
00:37:39.780
right right yeah but i love about go go ahead erwan did you have something oh brett uh sorry to
00:37:44.260
interrupt but uh uh so i love what danny said and and actually uh i wanted to express something that
00:37:50.020
uh the you know the people whoever is in is into the art of manliness is i believe going to really
00:37:57.540
relate with is that idea that um so there's no rite of passage uh in our modern societies anymore
00:38:04.420
um or practically none and um that idea that you can embrace physical training not just to look good
00:38:16.420
which will happen by the way but not for that reason not even just for yourself but for yourself and
00:38:24.740
others it's your you turn it you turn your physical training into a constant rite of passage where
00:38:31.860
with every progress you make your ability to to help others uh if needed to serve others in that in
00:38:40.660
that way uh is um is greater uh with your personal physical accomplishments and progress you become more
00:38:50.820
potentially more helpful to yourself but also your neighborhood your community or even perfect strangers
00:38:56.980
um and that is a very important psychological asset not only to grow that self-confidence when you walk
00:39:07.540
the streets and you know that you can do pretty much anything um if anything happens but you know that you
00:39:15.860
won't be helpless to yourself of others because you have learned to be helpful helpful or useful to yourself and
00:39:24.180
others through your physical practice and this is relating back to that idea of moral uh
00:39:33.860
moral education that was so uh dear to george hebert uh he talked about this physical
00:39:41.380
viral and moral education by the natural method uh it's that idea that it's not just physical
00:39:47.540
it's also about mental fortitude uh whenever whenever it's needed and ultimately it's about the intention
00:39:57.060
that guides you which is which is the difference between right and wrong that idea that um you can do
00:40:04.260
something good in your life and that you can be useful to others um it's a moral component that is that
00:40:11.460
that never goes old never gets old it's it's timeless it's universal and um and move that training
00:40:23.620
also embraces that approach that philosophy it's not just physical and even though the physical part is
00:40:31.140
uh obviously the foundation and the main focus ultimately we want to to equip people with the
00:40:39.460
the the physical skills the physical qualities but also the the mental and moral qualities and values
00:40:46.980
that make them better people in this world i mean that's one thing i loved about moving out at the
00:40:52.020
seminar when we were learning these skills like for example when we were learning how to throw right
00:40:56.420
you learn how to throw and moving that um with heavy medicine balls but like you're always trying to
00:41:01.140
bring it back to like okay when would you use this well you might use this when you're throwing sandbags in
00:41:05.460
a chain to stop a flood or you're carrying heavy odd shaped objects and like well this is something
00:41:12.500
you probably do if you're helping you know your old neighbor move mulch bags in her yard um to clean
00:41:18.660
things up it's always bringing it back to how is how can this be useful to others and it's not just
00:41:24.660
a sort of a self-gratifying aesthetic thing it's all about be fit to be useful right it's true
00:41:31.380
some movements uh some movement skills some techniques they are it's not about intensity it's not about
00:41:36.580
strength it's not about explosiveness it can be just as simple as the accuracy you need in uh
00:41:45.060
eye hand coordination to throw and catch a shovel an axe a piece of equipment that's uh
00:41:52.820
uh or or tool that's going to be uh important in a given situation and i think it's an incredible
00:42:01.220
concept too because you know for me i've been i started wrestling competitively when i was four
00:42:06.020
years old and um to be able to find a philosophy and an entire movement system that has a biological
00:42:15.300
basis but also is not about competition inherently against others um is really interesting to me
00:42:21.940
um and it has implications for my own life and that i can i can truly make my practice not about
00:42:30.820
this alpha i'm gonna go beat someone thing it's truly for me and it's truly for others um with a
00:42:36.340
young son of two years old you know i think that that's pretty powerful um and i think that a little
00:42:44.020
there's nothing wrong with competition but if that if that sort of philosophy can rub off um i think it
00:42:49.620
can help balance out our competitive nature a little bit i think there'd be some positive
00:42:53.460
implications for for society and for individuals who are bogged down by everything being about
00:42:58.980
competition uh you can certainly use this to be an extremely powerful competitor as uh you know mma
00:43:06.740
fighter carlos conda did and many others um or even myself have but uh to be able to do something
00:43:13.780
that's not always about competition is is um is is powerful right and i think it's an important
00:43:21.140
point to make is that move now isn't supposed move that doesn't have to replace your current uh
00:43:25.940
fitness modality if you have an area of focus like strength training or running or brazilian jujitsu or
00:43:32.260
whatever um move that can be a supplement to that so i mean talk about how can you know working on your
00:43:37.780
crawling or working on your climbing make you a better say power lifter for example um i think in
00:43:45.940
in many ways um first of all uh any any specialized sport or practice um has trade-offs associated with it
00:43:55.540
so um you know in in a way you're extending the longevity of your practice um of your particular
00:44:04.420
sports so you know someone like a power lifter uh like i i was into that for a little bit um
00:44:10.340
you know there's there's going to be certain injuries that come about with overuse um and by by
00:44:17.940
practicing um natural movements or a broader spectrum of movements um you can negate some of
00:44:24.100
those effects i think that's what cross training essentially is all about um but instead of doing
00:44:29.300
something else that's also more strength to try and negate that or very extreme that needs a lot
00:44:34.100
of recovery you're doing something that um could be restorative like crawling um i think that
00:44:40.740
crawling and climbing both build a tremendous amount of structural integrity that um lifting can but not
00:44:47.460
always does uh can do so again relating it back to myself um i don't really max deadlift very much
00:44:55.380
anymore um i just i focus on adding more complexity to my deadlifting um but so but i went and
00:45:04.100
deadlifted the other day for the first time and was pulling over 400 for multiple reps um and it
00:45:10.020
wasn't because i was on a power lifting cycle it was because the quality of my joints my overall
00:45:17.700
uh function of my body um how it's tied together has improved through doing these other patterns um
00:45:25.540
so i think that it can benefit you know you in a lot of different ways i think too from um for sports
00:45:32.420
sports that require a ton of perceptual abilities uh like mixed martial arts or any any combat sports
00:45:39.780
um even any sort of like ball sports um or some sport that requires a lot of jumping or skiing
00:45:47.140
working on your general ability to uh to be able to perceive your environment um i think carries over to
00:45:56.180
your specific um tasks so i think a great example was erwan's work with carlos condit where um
00:46:04.980
you know he carlos has a very specific strategy to be able to um beat high level opponents um but by
00:46:13.540
working on his specific footwork um and his perceptual abilities and jumping um he was able to
00:46:20.580
make some changes to his strategy to just put himself in better positions um so putting your
00:46:26.340
any generally anytime you put yourself outside of the same patterns you do all the time there's a lot
00:46:31.380
of opportunity for growth yeah i can i can attest the fact that moving that can help your strength
00:46:37.060
training um you know i primarily do barbell training but you know one issue i've had uh just from i think
00:46:43.620
it's just from sitting down all the time that's what i do most of the time is i got really tight in
00:46:48.420
places like my chest or my hip abductors um and doing some of the movement progressions and move
00:46:54.420
nat has helped open those things up so that i can get a little bit lower or i can get the bar in
00:46:59.940
position on a low bar squat easier before i mean i was so tight in my chest i couldn't even do it at
00:47:06.020
the beginning but doing some of the opening movements with move nat has completely increased
00:47:11.620
that flexibility so i can get in that position comfortably and there's there's a lot of benefits from
00:47:17.380
adding you know a heavy loads and you know we view in move nat that lifting isn't something separate
00:47:23.060
from natural movement lifting is just a part of natural movements um so when you're lifting you're
00:47:29.300
still practicing natural movements um but uh there's a lot of you know because of the the movement deficit
00:47:38.580
that happens when we stop playing when we stop um growing in our environment as as youngsters um we start
00:47:45.940
sitting a lot in school a lot of the the function of our torso whether it be your pelvic floor all
00:47:52.500
these uh whether it be your posture um just your general positioning they they can degrade and just
00:47:58.820
lifting heavy isn't necessarily gonna activate your full potential so by more movement variety more
00:48:05.140
stimulation of your body and a lot of different planes of motion that lifting sort of ignores or doesn't get
00:48:10.340
a chance to um stimulate you absolutely can improve your your lifting um i think the more your general
00:48:16.820
movement ability increases the more any specific movement ability is going to increase as well
00:48:23.220
there's also uh uh that culture of uh muscular tightness muscular hardness um especially in the the
00:48:32.820
the strength circles um even that idea of irradiation where you want every muscle possible in your body to
00:48:41.460
contribute um and to to create some tension but the problem is that uh movement efficiency doesn't
00:48:49.060
work that way and uh you need that that selectivity intention selective tension and that also means the art of
00:48:57.460
of relaxation in movement and we know that the uh elite athletes are amazing at relaxation actually and
00:49:06.660
when we talk about relaxation i'm not talking about relaxing by the pool and drinking hotels all day
00:49:12.340
or stretching all day i'm talking about relaxation in movement um and so we we don't have that culture of
00:49:20.580
muscular tightness actually it's the opposite we want the body to be uh more relaxed um we want the
00:49:28.260
muscles to be more relaxed because when they are more relaxed then it means that your patterns are more
00:49:32.740
fluid and uh and accurate but it also means that you can produce force better and so it's not a surprise
00:49:41.780
that the people who are saying to uh strength but also who have that mentality of constant you know
00:49:50.020
maximum tension and tightness are going to actually see uh strength um i mean uh gains in strength by
00:49:59.460
simply learning to relax yeah relax that's hard to do um to learn how to relax muscles and to breathe
00:50:08.420
and to breathe right it's one of those things you take for granted so let's talk about this so people
00:50:14.100
we talked about move now there's some basic skills there's crawling there's balancing there's throwing
00:50:18.980
there's hanging from a bar um and moving out there's this thing called progressions um where you kind
00:50:25.460
of progress from one movement to to another you know for those who are listening to the podcast like i
00:50:29.780
want to give this a try what would like a typical movement progression look like for a beginner who's
00:50:35.380
just starting um so if we look at like one movement domain or aptitude such as balancing
00:50:42.580
it would be as simple as starting on a two by four at ground level so being able to walk forward and
00:50:49.620
backwards or maybe even turn yourself around on um a fairly wide object that's still for most people
00:50:56.980
will still be a challenge to be able to spend a couple minutes on there um and be able to you know learn how
00:51:02.660
to effectively counterbalance um to be able to be able to relax and breathe and not be overly tense um or flailing their
00:51:09.940
arms all over the place so that would be like the starting point and then to progress from there
00:51:14.740
we can change either volume intensity or complexity and for those that are in the strength industry
00:51:21.220
volume and intensity are very familiar so volume would be just doing more of that same exact thing
00:51:27.300
um intensity would be we could add a load um to that um while you're doing it so we can add a carry
00:51:34.660
now so you're holding something while doing that uh that balancing sequence um or we can add complexity
00:51:42.340
and that's sort of the forgotten training variable in in classical training which is we can change the
00:51:47.940
object itself uh we can make it a more narrow surface like a rail we can elevate that surface um
00:51:55.220
and you'll find that as that that complexity increases you have to sort of relearn the pattern
00:52:01.380
uh standing on a two by four is much different than standing on a rail and standing at ground level
00:52:07.540
is much different than standing each feet above the ground um so it's not always about new shiny
00:52:14.820
movements you know flashy stuff it's just about adding that complexity as well as the volume and
00:52:19.700
intensity to progress um in a very systematic and safe way um if you just if we just had somebody um
00:52:26.500
starts by balancing at heights could you imagine the the second they stop breathing they're going
00:52:32.020
to fall um and they're probably not going to be breathing because of how afraid they are
00:52:36.260
so in move now we make these skills very very attainable but we use incremental steps so that
00:52:42.580
uh you know anyone from a from a youngster to a um senior can can move through these progressions
00:52:50.580
to the level that they feel comfortable with and what they what they want to achieve
00:52:53.860
yeah i love that the uh two by four is a great i mean i just if you if any of you are interested
00:52:59.220
in the move net like that's it cost a few bucks i have one in my living room and every time i walk
00:53:04.740
by it i'll occasionally balance across it or i'll stand on it for a while and try to crouch down
00:53:11.460
um and just i've been able to incorporate that into my just my daily routine it's not that hard to
00:53:16.660
do i don't have to set aside time for move now it just becomes a part of my day it sounds so simple
00:53:22.820
um and you can't tell someone it's one of those things you have to try it to really understand
00:53:29.300
how profound it is how interesting it is how engaging it is um to be able to do this type of
00:53:34.820
stuff uh if you're just used to the classical just lifting and calorie burning type of fitness um it
00:53:41.460
might sound boring um i certainly didn't try it until i just kind of forced myself into a retreat with
00:53:47.300
erwan and from there i'll just it opened up my entire world of new possibilities of uh viewing
00:53:53.220
movement as a skill um and feeling the benefits of that skill improvements it's to me just as rewarding
00:53:59.300
as a max deadlift if not more i'd say it's more in line with being able to uh win a win against a
00:54:06.420
high-level jiu-jitsu competitor that sort of gratification as you feel your skill level increase
00:54:11.620
right your trust and and belief come through practice um i know that danny could talk about
00:54:19.860
the science between all these movements um in a very precise way and uh but but the truth is that
00:54:29.380
ultimately really boils down to practice and and then observe and feel because it's going to happen
00:54:37.220
it's going to take place in your body more than it takes place in your mind uh you'll have an
00:54:43.140
experience of of what it is and what it brings to your body to what it can do um and it's um it's
00:54:51.700
to whoever has practiced move that they are they are really often shocked by how much difference it makes
00:55:00.180
um and including in their specialty training in their what is whatever is their forte that they are
00:55:08.340
into lifting into running into uh grappling into whatever because they get to be exposed uh physically
00:55:17.220
to all those different patterns and and physiological and physical adaptations that they are not exposed to
00:55:24.900
when they only practice their specialized sports so let's talk about this we've we've
00:55:30.100
been very basic and i'm sure there's people who are listening to this like oh okay crawling okay
00:55:34.900
balancing on a two by four it sounds like kids stuff or old people stuff but to give us an idea of
00:55:40.420
how you know where move nat can go um as far as complexity in in the the yeah just the complexity
00:55:47.380
of it and the the skill required to do it can you talk about some of the feats of strength and agility
00:55:53.060
that an instructor needs to accomplish in order to become i guess the highest is level three certification
00:55:59.060
in the move nat system right now i mean what are some of the stuff they have to do in order to get
00:56:02.900
that certification because i think it's it's pretty insane with some of the stuff they have to do
00:56:08.340
yeah sure um it's it's it's an extension of the basics but it requires again more volume intensity
00:56:15.860
and complexity with a higher emphasis on adaptability um through complexity through moving through complex
00:56:22.020
environments so um instead of again just testing um well first of all we test the full spectrum so
00:56:30.180
we're not we don't expect just competency and just being able to jump or just be able to balance you have
00:56:36.820
to be able to lift as well um for example in the last level three we did um we were outside um for the final test
00:56:45.460
we did an entire outdoor portion and um we had people uh all of our candidates pick somebody up
00:56:55.380
over their shoulders and like a fireman's carry position so uh the person's you know like you're
00:56:59.860
carrying them like a fireman would most people are familiar with that it's a skill we do go over
00:57:04.900
in level two and then you're walking across a muddy stream and then we were doing uh like a squat
00:57:13.300
to where they had to squat down to hips below their knees uh five times with the person on their back
00:57:21.140
so it's not just testing the strength of course there's a huge strength component to that you're
00:57:25.620
you're squatting your own body weights but you're also testing their ability to uh successfully actually
00:57:31.860
pick someone up and do something to be able to carry someone to be able to deal with the the slippery
00:57:37.620
surface and this isn't something that we expect somebody this is why we have prerequisites well
00:57:44.100
someone has to have earned their level two already to do this so if i just had someone off the street
00:57:49.140
do that uh expecting to earn a level three certification they would probably drop the person
00:57:53.780
but these people have earned that uh that's that ability to do that and if they haven't then they
00:57:59.780
don't do it and they have to come back and earn that adaptability that's just one example um
00:58:04.820
um you know uh we have precision landings which involve stepping up onto a rail at elevation jumping
00:58:13.220
to another narrow surface six or seven feet away and being able to we call stick your landing um meaning
00:58:20.260
your feet make contact uh and you don't just fall off you're able to actually gain control over your
00:58:26.420
landing stand up and step off uh and these are just examples um we require again in level three
00:58:34.740
instead of just a basic uh pull up even in level two we require the ability to get over an object
00:58:40.980
like over a bar instead of just being able to do a pull up through various techniques that uh we have
00:58:46.980
in the movement system um but in you know in level three we require even more power so it's not just
00:58:53.620
your um your technique it's your technique and your ability to generate power to be able to do a
00:58:59.940
power up um which is like a muscle up and get on top of a bar and then balance for a distance over
00:59:07.380
a complex surface so it's really kind of the apex of um bringing in the volume intensity and complexity
00:59:14.580
to the patterns we learn but i tell uh the student you know the students that this is like learning
00:59:20.340
your black belt and you know in natural movements but just like in jujitsu a black belt doesn't really
00:59:26.020
mean that you're very good yet just means you've achieved a baseline level of mastery of the
00:59:31.380
movements the ability to um perform the movements with control with a level of technique it's still
00:59:38.740
just the starting point it's just the entry point into what it can become and that's why i like to
00:59:43.460
think about uh move net as really the martial arts of movement it's an ongoing evolution that really
00:59:50.420
never stops right so there's a lot of room for growth so it's not just crawling you know army crawl
00:59:55.780
like there's a possibility where you can get really advanced so you're never going to stop learning
00:59:59.700
you're never going to stop progressing and move net um and the point isn't to make these positions
01:00:05.220
hard it's to make it so that they're effortless that's the long-term goal uh you know for me as a
01:00:10.660
power someone who is into power lifting and even martial arts i used to be afraid to i would hate to
01:00:16.100
admit it but to go on like long hikes because i would fatigue out faster to go jumping on rocks all the
01:00:21.300
time as much as i enjoyed that type of stuff i just didn't really have the efficiency so it was
01:00:26.660
sort of something i wouldn't do and move that we developed such a high level of efficiency that
01:00:32.340
you know these type of things aren't taxing they're actually easy and that's what we're looking for
01:00:37.460
you're not passed just by doing them they have to look absolutely effortless
01:00:43.300
well guys this has been a great conversation where can people like if they wanted to start moving
01:00:47.140
at right where can they go is it the best way to go to a seminar if there's not a seminar nearby are
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there videos online or courses they can take online to start with moving at i think the most important
01:00:58.740
thing um if possible is to attend either a workshop or a certification we're trying we're working on
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making that more available to more diverse regions um so keep an eye out on that if you go to the website
01:01:10.980
and you don't see one in your area stay tuned because we're going to have them all over the place very
01:01:16.020
soon uh nothing really substitutes that coaching experience you know to be able to have someone
01:01:21.220
look at your movement level and uh progress and be able to figure out what can help you improve uh so
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mentors and coaches are so important with this type of stuff that said uh as an introduction to natural
01:01:34.420
movement if you sort of want to get started um everyone has a book coming out uh very shortly um
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um that is about the practice of natural movement and um we have videos on um on youtube and um i have
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an entire instructional series called from the ground up on our website that can uh that's in our journal
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section that you can start to see some of these movements uh there's some instruction in it um so you
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can start to play around with it uh so there's there's a variety of resources it's really easy to get
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involved but i really think nothing substitutes attending a workshop or a certification
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we're one of the core danny clark thanks so much for your time it's been a pleasure
01:02:14.820
thanks so much brett thank you brett it's been a pleasure too my guests today were erwan
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the core he's the founder of move nat as well as danny clark the performance director at move nat
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you can find more information about move nat and how to get started at move nat.com
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and also check out the show notes at aom.is slash move nat where you find links to resources
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well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice
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check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com our show is edited by creative
01:02:55.300
audio lab here in tulsa oklahoma if you have any audio editing needs or music production needs
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check them out at creative audio lab dot com as always i appreciate your continued support
01:03:03.540
and until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay manly