The Art of Manliness - #253： Why Men Hate Going to Church

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast earlier this year

00:00:18.900 we published an in-depth series about masculinity in the christian religion in particular why it is

00:00:24.160 nearly all christian churches the world over women outnumber men and one of the sources for

00:00:29.100 that series was a book called why men hate going to church and today on the show i talk with the

00:00:33.360 author of that book david murrow david and i talk about the significant disparity in the sex ratio

00:00:37.740 of christian churches the factors that led to that gender gap why fewer men in the pews typically

00:00:42.500 leads to an overall decline in congregation attendance what some churches are doing to

00:00:46.860 make the church more man-friendly and why newer mega churches have been more successful at

00:00:51.160 attracting men than older mainline churches and why one branch of christianity eastern orthodoxy

00:00:56.360 hasn't suffered the same decline in male attendance that's plagued other traditional denominations

00:01:00.720 whether you enjoyed our series on christianity and manhood have wondered why you find going to

00:01:04.820 church so unbearable or simply enjoy discussions on the intersection of faith culture and masculinity

00:01:09.400 you're gonna love this podcast after the show's over check out the show notes at aom.is slash murrow

00:01:14.980 david murrow welcome to the show thanks brett good to be with you uh so you wrote a book called why men

00:01:26.240 hate going to church um and we used it as a source on a series about christianity and manhood about a

00:01:32.900 month ago and sort of the muscular christianity movement that happened the 19th late 19th and early

00:01:37.720 20th century and i want to get you on the show to discuss more about the research you've done about

00:01:42.320 men in the christian church today uh so your book's called why men hate going to church so the

00:01:47.300 underlying assumption is that men don't really go to church uh so start off can you give us a big

00:01:52.180 picture view of the engagement of men within christian churches and you know what does the

00:01:56.360 ratio of men to women look like in most congregations well the average church in north america draws an

00:02:02.120 adult crowd that's 61 female and 39 male that's sort of the average um there are certain subsets of

00:02:10.220 christianity where the ratio might be three to one four to one african american churches tend to be

00:02:14.980 very heavily uh female and then overseas we uh i get emails from pastors all the time who are asking

00:02:22.060 me how do i get any men involved in my church you know we had a leadership conference in nicaragua and

00:02:27.680 you know 90 of the leaders who showed up were women so there's definitely a disengagement among men

00:02:34.780 from institutional religion in the west and in christianity in particular and uh i mean i think

00:02:40.900 many people the common explanation for this is that well the gender gap exists because women are

00:02:46.400 just more inherently spiritual religious across the board uh does this gender gap exist in all religions

00:02:52.440 then well the statement you made is slightly true uh there was a pew study that came out in early 2016

00:02:57.860 that confirmed that women are slightly more spiritual in their attitudes but when it comes to

00:03:02.680 religious practice in most religions uh women and men have roughly equal participation the two outliers

00:03:09.040 are islam where men are much more involved in participating in religion than women and then

00:03:15.840 christianity where women are way more involved than men so um christianity is really the only major

00:03:22.380 world religion that has the size of gender gap that we see all the other religions are either

00:03:27.240 uh slightly more male or uh quite closely balanced with a slight uh preference with females so i mean

00:03:34.700 when did this disparity begin because i think a lot of people say well this is just a recent phenomenon

00:03:38.720 right is this a long term problem that christian christianity has had um when did this disparity

00:03:44.860 between men and women in the pews start well according to a catholic scholar by the name of lee pottles the

00:03:50.560 uh the disparity really began shortly after the eastern church and the western catholic church

00:03:56.760 uh uh separated around the year 12 1300 it's when a period of bridal mysticism kind of took over the

00:04:04.120 monasteries the catholic monasteries during the middle ages and we began to see the withdrawal of men

00:04:10.280 from churches men took a more passive role they weren't even allowed to go up and accept communion had

00:04:15.440 to be put on their tongues um there was really only work for the priests and the layman had nothing to do

00:04:21.360 with the reformation the protestant reformation we saw a fresh awakening among men we saw much higher

00:04:28.180 men male participation in religion around the colonial times but then in the victorian era we began to see

00:04:34.780 men uh withdrawing from the church again uh men left homes to find work in mines mills and factories

00:04:41.880 and the people left behind were women children and aged men too old to work in the mines and that is

00:04:48.800 that has been the uh the predominant demographic in the western church for 200 years there are lots of

00:04:55.900 women lots of children lots of aged men older men but the young virile man the working man the blue

00:05:01.960 collar man has been conspicuously absent uh with the the sole exception being the 1950s uh we after world

00:05:09.120 war ii we saw the the joiner builder generation came back to church in force the church grew it set the

00:05:15.620 stage for the uh the growth of the mega church and and some of the phenomena we see today but if you're

00:05:21.000 asking about the long-term trends yes christianity has always had a gender gap and uh revivals and

00:05:26.760 awakenings have brought men back for a little while but then the churches tend to re-feminize over time

00:05:31.420 what was it about bridal mysticism that turned men off back in the 1200s oh there was lots of talk

00:05:39.860 about uh you know jesus uh suckling at his breast a lot of imagining him as as female it was a very

00:05:45.900 cultish time in the church the monasteries uh there was a lot of homosexuality in the monasteries

00:05:52.060 and uh it just it really the the the the kind of the straight guy of the year 1300 there really wasn't

00:06:00.340 much for him to do in the church the clergy definitely professionalized evangelism and church

00:06:05.480 growth was de-emphasized and with this very institutional structure that was controlled

00:06:10.400 by eggheads and uh it there just wasn't much for the layman to do and so we see a withdrawal of men

00:06:16.760 and a pouring of more feminine sentiments out of the church right and you still see those sentiments

00:06:21.200 today and like you talk about we'll talk about this later but like praise and worship music

00:06:24.900 sort of jesus is your you know a lover that you're supposed to embrace well that's driven more my

00:06:29.560 market forces uh women buy about 75 percent of the christian music a lot of these women are either

00:06:35.700 single or they're trapped in loveless marriages so the the image of jesus as a lover a protector someone

00:06:42.540 who's right there by your side a comforter these images are very very comforting to women who do not

00:06:48.200 experience the love of a man in their in their daily life jesus kind of is portrayed as this um

00:06:54.840 cryptic sort of uh substitute lover for the man you don't have and and that that so the reason we

00:07:01.120 see so much feminine imagery and praise and worship today is because that's who buys the cds that's who

00:07:05.460 downloads the songs are these women who are looking for love right and i mean why does that i mean i guess

00:07:12.580 i can see why that would turn guys off you guys don't want uh jesus as a boyfriend uh quote unquote but

00:07:18.300 like what what are men looking for like in a god to worship i mean it seems like women are more

00:07:24.020 relational what is it that men are looking for well and aren't getting um well we just uh the united

00:07:31.060 states just elected a strong man president and with with uh heavy heavy support from men and i think

00:07:38.060 that's a window into the type of leader that men are looking for um we we tend to gravitate toward a

00:07:45.040 leader who is leading us onto the battlefield rather than into the bedroom and a lot of the sentiment and

00:07:49.920 praise and worship today definitely feels like jesus is our lover rather than our leader

00:07:53.820 so you know we used to have very militant battle-oriented hymns you know the battle hymn

00:07:58.700 of the republic or a mighty fortress is our god or onward christian soldiers and what's interesting is

00:08:03.900 in the most feminized denominations the more liberal mainline denominations we see those songs have been

00:08:09.180 banned you know they're politically incorrect you can't sing a song with any battle imagery in it

00:08:13.420 because it's considered warlike and too violent and so this maternalism in these churches is

00:08:19.420 definitely driving men away because there's just nothing to interest them well i mean and what's

00:08:24.060 what's interesting you know this you know christianity was founded by a man and he had 12 of his male

00:08:28.820 comrades helping him out and much of the leadership in most christian churches remains male so i mean

00:08:36.300 it is odd that more women than men are attending and often you know christianity gets criticized as being

00:08:41.100 patriarchal but at the same time there's more women attending so we've talked about some of the

00:08:46.380 historical factors but what are some of the other factors sort of um you know micro factors that are

00:08:51.820 influencing uh male attendance and engagement in christian churches well let me let me clarify a

00:08:57.580 comment that you just made you you had said that there's a perception that churches are male dominated

00:09:02.380 if you're talking about that relatively thin stratum of paid professional clergy then yes by all means

00:09:08.380 churches are male dominated but really when you get beyond that stratum if you talk about people who

00:09:14.700 volunteer in church people who work on the church payroll uh people who run the ministries

00:09:20.540 overwhelmingly female um 70 about 75 of paid christian workers are women um that's talking

00:09:28.300 about the church secretary missionary support personnel etc and they bring their feminine sensibilities

00:09:34.140 to their ministries you know we we had a balance in the church for hundreds of years uh the clergy and

00:09:40.300 the elders the ruling elders of a church were all men but the lay leaders in the church were women and so

00:09:46.940 you had a strong masculine sensibility directionally with the church from the pulpit and from the decision

00:09:52.940 making process but then the day-to-day ministries had the characteristic feminine relational uh feel to

00:10:00.860 it you had a yin and a yang you had a masculine and a feminine you had a lion and a lamb today especially in

00:10:07.740 those mainline churches as men have withdrawn from the formal leadership posts and women have taken

00:10:12.300 those over there's no countervailing masculine spirit in those churches everything is about

00:10:17.420 nurture everything is about relationships everything is about it's not about doctrine anymore or great

00:10:22.140 truths it's about how can we comfort these oppressed people and although that would resonate with some

00:10:27.340 men a lot of men simply see that as weakness and they choose to withdraw and i mean so that kind of

00:10:33.580 goes one of the points you made that one reason that men say they don't go to church is that uh

00:10:38.380 it's it's too safe there's no risk taking or innovation going on a lot of meetings talking

00:10:44.780 about relationships and like they feel like the meetings are unproductive i mean what other ways

00:10:48.860 do churches squander you know a man's general tendency again we're talking generalities here

00:10:54.220 for innovation and risk taking well maybe i could answer your question this way um we find that church

00:11:00.540 plants have no problem attracting man a church plant being a new church that's founded in a new

00:11:06.700 area of town or a new building usually those tend to be 50 50 and i think the reason why is because

00:11:12.620 a man's natural gifting is very valued in a church plant you have to there's a first of all there's a

00:11:18.220 heavy pressure to bring new people in evangelism confronting people with the truths of the bible

00:11:23.420 you you have to get out there or the church is going to close its doors yeah strategic planning

00:11:29.260 uh strategizing uh these sorts of things that that men you know men love to play stratego and

00:11:35.100 you know war games and these from the time their children strategy is definitely a very tends to be

00:11:40.140 a more masculine trait men love to strategize um you got to build a building you got to buy a building

00:11:45.580 you got to remodel a building you got to paint the building you got to do the things that men tend to do

00:11:49.660 once a church institutionalizes once the building is bought once the programs are running now the the

00:11:56.140 masculine gifts that were so valuable during the planting phase become liabilities um what you need

00:12:01.900 at that point is a steady gentle ministry that keeps the children happy that keeps the women

00:12:07.340 volunteering that keeps the building maintained and the number of things for men to do declines

00:12:12.460 rapidly so what we're seeing is young churches do very well attracting men but over time the men become

00:12:20.220 disinterested and disengaged because their natural gifting is not only seen as unnecessary but it's often

00:12:25.980 seen as harmful uh because you know when you're talking about disruptive change and culture change

00:12:31.180 and these sorts of things upset people uh and and that's that is antithetical to a maintenance mode

00:12:37.980 which is where most churches are today particularly uh you talk about the book mainline protestant

00:12:43.100 churches that are the struggling the most because they've they're established they've been around for

00:12:46.860 decades centuries but uh on the other hand these mega churches that are popping up these are the ones

00:12:52.380 that are really doing well with men and also just and they're doing better than the mainline protestant

00:12:57.340 churches well the mainline is fighting a lot of headwinds a it's the feminization the withdrawal of

00:13:02.220 men b the way they're administered their minister their uh administrative structures were created in the 17

00:13:08.940 and 1800s when there was no internet there was no telephone uh and the biggest problem then was heresy

00:13:15.180 you had to control individual congregations out on the prairie to keep some pastor from going off and

00:13:20.380 preaching that jesus was a unicorn or some crazy nutty thing like that so what they did is they

00:13:26.060 created all these committees and subcommittees and levels of control every presbyterian church is

00:13:30.860 under the under the governance of a session a synod a presbytery a synod and a general assembly

00:13:36.540 four levels of control on every congregation so what that leads to is a very slow deliberative decision

00:13:43.340 process drives men up the wall you know men are used to the business the the fields of business

00:13:49.260 sports these sorts of places where they predominate where decisions are made quickly

00:13:53.420 where people's feelings get hurt and we move on in churches it doesn't work that way because there are

00:13:58.460 so many levels of control and so many ways that innovation can be stopped in order to preserve

00:14:03.100 relationships the men who lead in church get extremely frustrated because things move so slowly

00:14:09.740 and every decision is looked at through the lens of who is this going to hurt and how do we keep

00:14:14.140 built people you know happy and nurtured and these sorts of things so it the the main line is really

00:14:19.900 struggling with a culture that was built for an agrarian age and that um that with a a governance

00:14:26.460 structure that it that really really frustrates men so uh going back to the mega mega church thing so

00:14:32.060 the so the mega church does have a very uh business ethos like you walk into one there's mission

00:14:37.420 statements everywhere uh they've got uh you can take courses on leadership they have courses on

00:14:42.860 finances and then you get like a very dynamic uh lesson right or sermon from a very dynamic minister

00:14:51.020 um but you also talk about in the book one of the things that might appeal to men that mega churches

00:14:55.820 do is that they they separate their vertical and horizontal worship uh can you describe what that means and

00:15:02.780 why do you think smaller churches stumble by trying to combine the two together well yeah let me set

00:15:08.140 that up by saying that the mega churches all the disadvantages we talked about the main line the

00:15:12.860 mega churches have dispensed with those they tend to be very very short but first of all there's no

00:15:17.980 denominational structure over most of them decisions are made all on the local level they're usually led

00:15:23.420 by a ceo type person who really could have made an impression in the business world you know usually more

00:15:28.940 aggressive a good communicator good looking good baritone voice uh you know great communicator uh

00:15:35.420 that that type of guy is almost always at the head of a mega church you know you don't have casper

00:15:39.580 milk toast as the pastor of the local mega church it's always a guy with some charisma and he has a very

00:15:45.420 free hand to move quickly and to adapt and innovate when opportunities or problems arise in the church as they

00:15:52.140 inevitably do uh that's one of the reasons mega churches are you know just killing the traditional

00:15:57.420 churches because their government structure and the people that they have in charge now back to

00:16:02.140 answer your question though you restate it again i lost it a little bit it was about vertical and

00:16:08.780 horizontal right so then in the actual worship services the the mega churches are very very aware

00:16:13.740 of men's needs uh the two most famous mega churches of the 1980s and 90s are willow creek and saddleback

00:16:20.540 and both of those churches were founded by very charismatic men who recognized that if a

00:16:27.100 guy would come to church they would get the family in the deal so what's interesting is bill hybels the

00:16:32.780 founder of willow creek started off his church with a mythical parishioner called unchurched harry

00:16:38.860 and he built the entire church around that man's sensibilities and needs he created a church that

00:16:43.900 that man would come to and feel comfortable enough to stay near the gospel brooke warren did the exact

00:16:49.500 same thing five years later in southern california he had a mythical parishioner called saddleback sam

00:16:54.220 again neither of these mega church innovators targeted women at all that's not to say they

00:16:59.500 didn't care about women but they realized that men were the first domino that had to fall if you got

00:17:04.620 the man you got the family in the deal and so they targeted their church they built their church around

00:17:09.740 men the way the church is decorated you won't see a lace doily you're not going to see a flower or a

00:17:14.300 ribbon you're not going to see these school style construction paper bulletin boards that you often see in

00:17:21.180 family churches they dispensed with all the froufou and childlike decor and they made their churches

00:17:28.140 gender neutral and then they separated the horizontal worship from the vertical worship if and what i mean

00:17:35.820 by that is if you go to a small traditional church you'll often have people stand up and share prayer

00:17:40.620 requests or the church at some point during the worship service the church will kind of devolve into a

00:17:45.660 very large support group you know 80 people standing up sharing their prayers and praises

00:17:51.180 definitely family oriented horizontally focused on one another if you go to a mega church it's impossible

00:17:57.260 for 3 000 people to share prayer needs on sunday morning so what the brilliance of the mega church

00:18:02.140 model is you focus exclusively vertically on sunday morning it's all upward toward god there's very

00:18:07.900 little interaction among the congregation however these churches realize you need a horizontal

00:18:13.020 component to faith practice as well so they push small groups relentlessly every week you go to a

00:18:19.180 mega church you will be invited hectored bothered they are going to get after you about being in a small

00:18:25.660 group because they realize sunday morning is completely vertical that's the way it has to be in such a

00:18:30.220 large congregation but they realize that people need horizontal fellowship as well they have to have human

00:18:35.420 touch and that's true for men and women so they push these small groups relentlessly and their

00:18:41.580 model is working very well now they have a worship service on sunday morning that is focused upward

00:18:46.060 toward god which men appreciate they don't necessarily want to support group on sunday morning and then

00:18:51.500 they have a vehicle of midweek small groups which allows men to let their hair down a little bit more

00:18:55.820 be a little more intimate and real with one another get to know people on a closer basis and this model

00:19:02.620 seems to be working very very well in the mega churches these days well in going back so in the worship

00:19:08.060 service right the it's presented by a very dynamic uh pastor like i've i'm i'm from oklahoma life

00:19:14.620 church is craig rochelle yeah craig rochelle and i've been to it uh i go to you know every now and

00:19:20.140 then and the guy is like he's impressive like he's charismatic dynamic he's buff like he works out he

00:19:26.140 talks about working out so i can see how a lot of men uh are are drawn to that right um but then whenever

00:19:31.660 the the music comes on you don't see a lot of guys singing the songs because they're still

00:19:36.700 doing the sort of the praise and worship kind of romance stuff yes they are although things are

00:19:42.700 getting better um one of the one of the i think our ministry church for men was really the first

00:19:48.220 one to get out there and call worship uh leaders out on this issue and heard from quite a few um and

00:19:56.140 we've kind of started a quiet revolution in worship music to reconnect the militant side of our faith

00:20:03.740 to our music and we are slowly seeing the love songs to jesus get put on the shelf and we're

00:20:10.220 seeing more songs about god's majesty his power uh his ability to do miracles uh we're actually even

00:20:17.100 seeing some mild battle imagery coming back into some of the songs and the other thing that drive

00:20:22.780 used to drive men crazy was what was called the 7-11 song you sang seven words eleven times and it

00:20:28.380 just repeated over and over again and you'd slowly work your way into a worship coma that that is

00:20:34.460 starting to go away but the big challenge for men is familiarity uh one thing that's i'm sure you

00:20:40.460 understand about men is if we feel incompetent of something we simply don't do it we stop doing it

00:20:46.220 and uh one of the big challenges with praise and worship today is uh is that we've abandoned the

00:20:52.300 hymnal in favor of the big screen in the front the projection screen when we had a hymnal we had a

00:20:58.140 canon of about 250 songs that everybody knew we knew how to sing them we could sing them without

00:21:03.740 the work the lyrics the notes on the page we basically knew the lyrics you know amazing grace

00:21:09.340 and these sorts of songs we all knew them when the computer control projection screen came into the

00:21:15.260 sanctuary about 20 years ago we went from 200 songs everybody knows to 200 000 songs nobody knows i mean

00:21:21.820 you can put anything on that screen and so what we're seeing is worship leaders around the country

00:21:26.060 are putting unknown songs up every week in an effort to be cool and hip and so the congregation

00:21:31.980 doesn't sing these songs and men in particular don't because they don't know the lyrics they don't

00:21:36.300 know the tune it's probably keyed too high because the worship leader is a high tenor and he's up there

00:21:42.940 doing a private rock show for us while the men stand there with their hands in their pockets

00:21:47.340 thinking i wish this was over let's get to the sermon

00:21:49.900 so we're seeing a real participation gap in the church not only among men but women as well

00:21:55.900 because worship is becoming such a performance driven uh thing we've almost returned to medieval

00:22:02.060 catholicism which is which was a time when the laity was not even allowed they were prohibited from

00:22:07.740 participating in the worship service they had to stand mute while professional cantors performed at the

00:22:12.780 altar and we're kind of returning to that now with this professionalizing of worship we say hey everybody

00:22:18.780 stand up and sing but nobody's doing it and it's becoming a real issue with men right no one knows

00:22:24.540 the word so innovate but not too much don't innovate with the music well you know you one of the things

00:22:29.260 that i really appreciate about my church here in anchorage uh is our worship leader always includes a

00:22:34.700 couple of old hymns and the young people really like the hymns uh they're looking for something a little

00:22:40.140 more rooted a little less you know a little more pithy you know who cares if we can't understand a few

00:22:45.020 of the words or you know there might be a couple of archaic phrases or these or those what what it

00:22:50.140 does is gives us a sense of of majesty majesty and grandeur of god rather than songs that solely

00:22:56.220 talk about how my emotions are oh god i love you so much you're so beautiful um uh you know a lot of

00:23:01.820 these songs with their very romantic lyrics or uh emotion laden lyrics really just don't connect to

00:23:07.820 the masculine heart men are really more about the mission women are more about the relationship and so

00:23:13.660 you know our music has to reflect that so i mean i think you alluded to this a bit but i mean why

00:23:19.180 is it important for congregations to have more men in the pews i mean can't they get along without them

00:23:24.540 well what we're finding is that the congregations with the largest gender gaps tend to be the ones

00:23:29.980 that are growing the slowest or actually in decline uh the biggest gender gap to domination we have right

00:23:35.900 now in the united states is the episcopal church which lost 23 of its members in the last decade

00:23:41.500 uh the episcopal church will if current trends continue the episcopal church in the usa will cease

00:23:48.140 to exist by about the year 2060 so the gender gap goes hand in hand with church decline meanwhile if we

00:23:55.980 look at the profile of growing churches we tend to see near gender parity men bring a certain vitality

00:24:03.100 uh a wise texas preacher once told me that when the woman comes you get the tithe off the grocery

00:24:08.380 money when the man comes you get the tithe off the paycheck so men tend to bring money with them

00:24:14.860 they bring resources that um that women often don't possess and just from a from a perspective

00:24:23.100 of boys growing up in the church uh they love to see their fathers involved uh if dad is not involved

00:24:29.660 boys tend to drop out of the church in much higher numbers so if you want a healthy church that attracts

00:24:35.580 all kinds of people you have to work very hard to attract and then engage the men

00:24:42.860 and what do men stand to benefit from going to church regularly i mean a lot of guys it's a waste

00:24:47.500 of time but i mean there are some benefits to it right oh the benefits are huge study after study

00:24:51.740 has shown a very positive correlation between mental health and church attendance and this is true in

00:24:57.660 both men and women across the globe also a very exhaustive study from the heritage foundation

00:25:03.900 found a very strong correlation between church attendance and the avoidance of many social

00:25:09.580 pathologies drug use drunkenness um violence incarceration uh men who go to church are something

00:25:18.620 like four and five times less likely to engage in these behaviors than men who avoid it uh one other

00:25:25.260 study that came out of the university of chicago a few years ago was entitled soft patriarchs

00:25:29.980 it uh studied the the familial ties of irreligious men religious men catholic men protestant men etc

00:25:40.700 and it found that evangelical protestant men were far and away the best fathers and husbands as pulled

00:25:46.540 by their wives and by their children and by their their habits uh again much less likely to drink to excess

00:25:53.500 much more likely to provide for their families um there's just a very very strong correlation between church

00:25:59.420 involvement and a host of good outcomes for men and for society so what can congregations do to make

00:26:05.820 church more male friendly because like not every church is going to be a mega church right no i mean

00:26:10.780 is it a matter of i mean i've seen some churches do like these things like when it's super bowl sunday

00:26:15.340 they'll have like super bowl sunday sermon or like harley sunday where like where you're is is it is it make

00:26:21.580 doing that or is that too superficial does it need to be something more uh rooted well let me let me start by

00:26:26.780 saying that we tend to welcome uh we we see as normal uh things that are female oriented whereas

00:26:34.540 we tend to see things that are male oriented in the church as pandering or superficial i'll give you an

00:26:39.660 example if a church were to announce a women's scrapbooking night or a women's quilting night or

00:26:46.540 whatever we wouldn't bat an eye we wouldn't think twice we would see that as a perfectly appropriate

00:26:51.020 recreational activity for the women of the church now if we had a men's cigar night i can tell you

00:26:56.940 most churches would be up in arms now because now neither smoking or quilting is mentioned in the bible

00:27:03.900 however we tend to see the masculine uh activity as un-christ-like whereas the feminine one is very

00:27:10.700 christ-like uh going back to quilts if we decorated our church with quilts we say oh that's normal i mean

00:27:16.780 probably half the churches in america have a quilt hanging somewhere you know we see that as normal

00:27:22.300 church decor if a church were to take down the quilts and put up mounted animal heads like a

00:27:27.820 hunter would bring from the hunt there would be tons of opposition to that now again how many quilts are

00:27:34.460 there in the bible zero how many dead animals are there there's a dead animal on practically every page

00:27:38.780 of the old testament so but we just we tend to react negatively to anything that sort of appeals to

00:27:45.820 masculine sensibilities whereas we see those things that appeal to feminine sensibilities as perfectly

00:27:50.780 normal and acceptable so now back to your original question do we need to have a men's uh truck night

00:27:58.220 or you know whatever however you phrased it um you know a harley night or a harley event or a car show or

00:28:04.460 whatever you know i'm i'm all about those things if you'll attract men with those things that's fine

00:28:10.140 but it's really not about painting a macho veneer on a feminized church what you have to do is you've

00:28:16.380 got to look down at the way you're governor governed you have to look at the way the church is decorated

00:28:20.300 you have to look at the way you're presenting the gospel are you speaking of it as a passionate intimate

00:28:24.940 relationship with a man who loves you or are you talking about it as a dangerous mission

00:28:30.460 um you know the the metaphors the pastor uses the type of things the pastor speaks of from the pulpit

00:28:35.660 you mentioned craig gochelle is very good about talking about working out about the adventures he

00:28:39.340 goes on men love to hear men love to have a pastor they can relate to as a man and so he's very

00:28:45.260 intentional about talking about guys stuff from the pulpit many pastors are not so there's just a host

00:28:50.220 of things and you know on my website churchformen.com i've got a lot you know a lot of resources for

00:28:54.540 churches that want to start to begin this process of of making the church a more welcoming space to men and

00:29:00.460 boys and i've also got 60 pages in my book but you know that's just a few of them and the nice thing

00:29:05.900 like you said you don't have to be a mega church to attract men any congregation a congregation of 50

00:29:10.540 people can start to do little things that will attract more men and these things do work so in

00:29:17.100 throughout particularly in america um there have been these movements to proactively go after men and

00:29:23.340 we talked about in our series a month ago about the muscular christianity movement um for those who are

00:29:29.660 familiar can you talk a little about what the muscular christianity movement was about and was it even

00:29:33.500 successful uh my feeling is it was very successful um muscular christianity was a reaction to uh

00:29:40.860 industrialization uh you have to understand that uh the entire world was agrarian and organic before

00:29:48.300 1800 and then with the invention of the steam engine and the rise of machines in the 1850s and 60s

00:29:56.540 we began to see a retreat of men from physical labor as machines began to take over more of the labor

00:30:03.260 and there was a real panic in our country about you know men being inside all the time uh bookish men

00:30:10.540 uh the traditional masculine virtues that had opened up the frontier were being forgotten and lost and that

00:30:17.420 situation was particularly acute in the church because as i alluded to earlier during the victorian era men

00:30:23.020 began to withdraw from the church in huge numbers uh pastors got the reputation as being bookish sickly

00:30:31.660 girly type men and um so there was this movement called the muscular christianity movement which

00:30:39.020 attempted to return or restore a healthy masculinity to the church to make the church welcoming to men

00:30:45.180 once again and probably the crown jewel of that moment movement was the young men's christian

00:30:50.300 association or ymca as we know it and they took the radical steps of bringing gymnasiums into churches

00:30:59.100 and at the time this was considered extremely controversial the whole idea that that exercise

00:31:05.020 and physicality was somehow could be linked to faith that was completely beyond the pale you know coming

00:31:13.900 as we did from a puritan and congregationalist and uh tradition where the the body was suspect

00:31:19.980 the whole idea that bodybuilding could be part of our christian faith what was was completely beyond

00:31:25.980 the pale but and then another movement was the christian camp movement the first christian camp

00:31:30.700 was founded in the 1880s as a way of getting young boys who had been civilized and sissified in the

00:31:37.260 cities out into the country uh getting them doing guy stuff out in the country uh in 1905 a fellow in

00:31:44.860 england founded the boy scouts and there was the boys brigade christian service brigade and some of

00:31:50.380 those are still with us today and these were organizations that were designed to get these

00:31:54.780 sissified boys out into the country and introduce them to christ through this masculine in this more

00:32:00.700 masculine milieu than they were getting in their city life with their mothers so and in 1912 sort of

00:32:07.180 the peak of the muscular christianity movement was the men in religion forward movement was a short-lived

00:32:12.140 about it what about a year but it was a series of revival meetings all around the country billy

00:32:16.460 sunday was among the speakers and it was kind of a prototype a forerunner to the promise keepers

00:32:21.340 movement large gatherings of men in different cities listening to speakers singing robust and roaring

00:32:27.420 songs of the church and revival uh actually small revival broke out in many of these cities

00:32:33.340 as men came to uh accept christ and religion the world war the world wars of world war one and world

00:32:40.220 war ii um really kind of uh put church growth on hold we began to see men going off to war women

00:32:47.100 stayed home and and kept the hearth and the church going but then when we saw the return of men from

00:32:53.020 world war ii we saw a robust return to the church and guess what the churches that men found acceptable

00:32:59.020 to return to were the mainline churches presbyterian methodist lutheran etc my own father defected from

00:33:05.980 his catholicism and became a lutheran during that time and the reason men found these mainline

00:33:12.220 protestant churches so attractive is because they had been the exponents of muscular christianity

00:33:17.500 it was the presbyterians that started church gyms it was the methodists who were doing ymca and boy

00:33:24.140 scouts these uh mainline churches that we see as so feminized today were actually the largest proponents

00:33:29.900 of muscular christianity this linking of manhood and christianity so what your back to your original

00:33:36.540 question was the muscular christianity movement ultimately successful i believe it was i believe

00:33:41.580 it was responsible for the huge growth in the mainline church in post-world war ii america

00:33:46.300 but that when when the mainline churches began turning away from masculine values toward anti-war activism

00:33:53.420 feminism gay rights this constellation of more female issues we began to see the withdrawal of men

00:33:59.580 and the implosion of those churches so yeah there's that feminization cycle that you talk about

00:34:05.900 things start off robust and then as things get established it becomes more feminized or more

00:34:11.500 nurturing yeah it's more about in the early stages of a church it's more about you know it's a blazing the

00:34:16.620 trail it's pioneering it's it's you know it it just it's more risky once the institutional structure

00:34:22.860 is in place the building is built the paint is up the carpet's down really what is there for a man

00:34:27.340 to do all you have to do at that point is is maintain the institution and if you bring those

00:34:32.220 trailblazing values into an established church you just upset people you know you don't you start

00:34:37.340 overturning the fundraising table in the uh in the narthex so it's it's a it's a definitely a battle

00:34:44.380 for an established church to maintain a connection with men and the way that mega churches have done

00:34:49.180 that is through just continually sponsoring these big initiatives you know rick warren 15 years ago

00:34:55.660 had this peace initiative in rwanda and he sent hundreds of his people over to africa to try to

00:35:00.620 restore that country and they've done tremendous yeoman's work over there in re-establishing an

00:35:06.140 economy in in rwanda and bringing reconciliation between the hutus and the tutsis people don't know

00:35:11.660 it but it's his church saddleback church that has been at the epicenter of those reconciliation efforts

00:35:16.860 and so he's got rick warren has got this big story he tells every sunday about what they're doing this

00:35:21.900 dangerous work they're doing all over the world and men say hey here's a church that's doing

00:35:26.300 something dangerous we're not just caring for the sick locally we are changing the world globally

00:35:31.420 and that sort of big big picture tends to attract and retain men yeah and i've noticed too the um

00:35:38.780 the new abolitionist movement with the sex trade uh a lot of churches are using that you see these guys

00:35:44.940 are going in doing investigations with and like it is kind of dangerous like they're happening to like

00:35:49.340 kind of be do undercover work to bust these sex ring operations in other countries tremendously

00:35:56.700 helpful because as you know every man has a natural uh an inborn or trained uh instinct to

00:36:03.820 protect the women around him it's one of the core aspects of masculinity is protect the women it's one of

00:36:09.580 the first things we learn when we're little boys protect the women so as churches have embraced this uh

00:36:15.100 ministry to uh hurting women around the world men have stepped up and done a tremendously uh courageous

00:36:22.460 work in response to the needs of these women and can you talk a little about the about the promise

00:36:29.500 keepers movements i remember as a kid back in the 90s like you would see these things on the news all

00:36:33.660 the time they're filling giant sports reading arenas stadiums tens of thousands of men were going

00:36:39.500 any of these things and then nowadays like they can barely fill a venue so what was it about the

00:36:44.780 promise keepers um movement that resonated with men for a moment but no longer is as effective well

00:36:51.260 like anything um there's a tendency for the new to be exciting if you've been to a promise keepers rally

00:36:57.020 uh the first one i went to was in seattle in 1996 flew down from anchorage it was the nearest one

00:37:03.500 uh flew down from anchorage with my father-in-law and a good friend of his and we attended i was

00:37:09.820 absolutely amazed you know i had been a christian at that point for 20 years and i had never worshiped

00:37:16.060 in the presence of so many men every time i had ever been in a worship service there was always more

00:37:21.420 women than men the women participated more enthusiastically than the men but going to a

00:37:26.860 promise keepers rally was absolutely transformational for me and actually planted the seeds for my book

00:37:31.660 because i i began asking the question why is promise keepers so different than my local church

00:37:36.380 why are men so enthusiastic in this stadium and so passive back in the church um but like any movement

00:37:42.940 you know it has its heyday it has its peak and then people have done it and it's been there done that

00:37:47.740 um promise keepers also came of age right before the internet really took off um and so it i predicted it

00:37:55.980 it's probably the last mass movement of men that we're going to see the last mass gathering of men that

00:38:00.620 we're going to see because men are gathering in virtual tribes now online tribes and it's very

00:38:05.740 very hard to get men to gather men can get great bible teaching now just by clicking on their smartphones

00:38:11.260 or their computers they can hear preachers who are way better than the guy down the street and you know

00:38:17.820 men are reinventing the church around non-traditional uh structures and although that works well for the

00:38:24.220 tech savvy we're seeing a lot of men who are simply giving up on the church so uh so back to

00:38:29.340 your original question though why was promise keepers so big it was a it was a fresh movement

00:38:33.660 men had been been ignored in the church for quite a long time it was something new and exciting and

00:38:38.540 quite exhilarating the speakers were quite good the music was great and it was just great to be with

00:38:42.540 that many men uh but i fear that that may be the last large gathering of men ever because technology

00:38:47.740 is making gathering less and less attractive to men well you get going on that line i mean it seems like

00:38:54.220 men are using technology to innovate they're having virtual congress you can watch you know

00:38:59.020 life church you can watch life church from your laptop if you wanted to and i can see the benefit

00:39:04.540 right like you're getting something um but i mean it seems like you're missing out on something when

00:39:09.580 you don't have that face-to-face you know meet space interaction absolutely yeah i mean just watching

00:39:15.500 sermons on a screen is not going to get it done but there are virtual gathering spaces where men actually

00:39:20.700 interact and those are quite positive um i know there are military there are groups of military

00:39:25.420 men who continue to meet with their home group you know they'll be deployed to afghanistan or baghdad or

00:39:31.660 iraq or something or africa and they are continue to meet with their men's group back in houston or

00:39:38.220 columbus ohio or wherever that was through by means of technology so you know yeah just sitting down

00:39:44.540 and watching a sermon isolates but technology can also draw men together and that's been one of the more

00:39:49.820 positive uh things that technology has done yeah one group i've seen online that has been having

00:39:55.580 success getting men together in real real life is uh the f3 i think is what they're called faith family

00:40:03.500 front fellowship and basically they have these like uh workouts in the morning it's like a boot

00:40:07.820 camp style workout and they end with a prayer or something like that guy's last name is dot i've

00:40:13.420 been wanting to get on the podcast for a while but that's kind of interesting they're kind of combining

00:40:16.860 the two it's very uh um it's not centralized it's just you can start one up and they use the internet

00:40:23.420 to facilitate sort of like crossfit there's no real central organization there it's very uh

00:40:30.940 it's very networked just kind of yes very much so but but you're right if you if you don't regularly

00:40:36.620 connect with other guys that's that's where you're that's really the secret sauce of the church and it

00:40:40.940 has been for 2000 years is not really what happens from the from the chancel from the pulpit it's

00:40:47.740 really what happens in the pews among among the men if you have strong fellowship and a strong

00:40:52.300 honeycomb of relationships in the church the men you won't be able to pry men out of the church you

00:40:57.340 won't be able to blast them out with dynamite but if the men don't know each other and they just kind

00:41:02.540 of go and sing the songs and listen to the sermon and drop their 20 in the plate

00:41:05.980 uh that that's not a that's not a recipe for success and you know to their credit most churches

00:41:11.660 are working very hard to get people beyond that that model of just passively watching

00:41:17.820 but a lot of the trends in the church today are militating against that so when we wrote our series

00:41:22.460 about uh christianity's manhood problem we had lots and lots of readers chime in who were

00:41:27.660 eastern orthodox and they said hey wait a minute you need to check out the eastern orthodox church like

00:41:32.540 we don't have that problem um why is that i mean it seems like men are doing well within the eastern

00:41:38.220 orthodox church you mentioned way back to be in the podcast when the the the problem in the western

00:41:43.020 church began when there was the schism between the eastern and the the western um so what what's the

00:41:48.780 eastern orthodox church doing differently than western churches that have been able to maintain a more

00:41:53.340 parity amongst the sexes and the pews well i mean you're right the eastern church never did feminize there

00:41:57.420 was never the bridal mysticism and the monastic monastic problems of the 12s and 1300s um though

00:42:04.860 so and they've always allowed married priests which has cut down on the the incidence of homosexuality

00:42:10.860 among their leaders so um there hasn't been this this wall between the priesthood and laity that there

00:42:16.620 was during catholicism that you know pope francis is working very hard to break that wall down but it's still there

00:42:21.820 um so back to the eastern orthodox though uh there have been significant uh pockets of that religion

00:42:29.900 here in america i've attended some eastern orthodox worship services they're very long they're very

00:42:35.020 rigorous they often take two hours or more um you stand most of the time there's chair there are chairs

00:42:42.460 and you're allowed to sit only during the homily which is usually a just a short part of the service uh

00:42:48.060 the uh there's incense and candles and bells and it's just very ancient feeling so um it's a rigorous

00:42:54.940 type of worship and um but i would say eastern orthodoxy as strong as it is with men is not really

00:43:02.060 catching fire with men uh we're not seeing a huge growth evangelistically we're not seeing a lot of men

00:43:08.060 converting to eastern orthodox doxy so i'm not sure that's a model that a lot of modern men are going to

00:43:15.500 go for but um i think within their structures and within their their priesthood and and the way they

00:43:21.500 operate there is there are the seeds of lots of good ideas um it's just it's only going to attract

00:43:26.940 a man who's looking for a very ancient and traditional form of worship and in our modern

00:43:31.420 society that that population of men is relatively small i also think beards they have awesome beards

00:43:37.180 i think that's the secret too well but you know what i mean go to any church planters conference and

00:43:41.500 you're going to see some really righteous facial hair you know what i'm saying no my favorite i had

00:43:47.740 this um there's a eastern orthodox priest that reads the site and he sent us a picture of him he's like

00:43:52.140 this older guy had this awesome gray beard he had this giant kettlebell like it was the it's the

00:43:57.340 coolest picture i'll have to post it on the the show notes for you guys to see it it's a great great

00:44:01.900 picture sort of showing the showcasing the the the masculine vitality of the eastern orthodox church

00:44:07.180 well dave this has been a great conversation where can people learn more about your book and

00:44:11.660 your work um i have a website churchformen.com um i'm also on the board of the national coalition

00:44:17.180 of ministries for men which is ncmm.org if you want to learn more about the the full constellation of

00:44:22.700 what's going on in men's ministry i'd highly recommend that you go visit ncmm and uh you know it's

00:44:27.740 just a it's a we're over 200 organizations and individuals who are uh pushing the men's ministry

00:44:32.860 movement forward in the church and um yeah so there's just there are a growing number of

00:44:38.620 resources out there that are designed to help churches become more welcoming and friendly to

00:44:42.460 men uh my theory is has always been this is i'm not out there to call men back to the church i'm

00:44:48.380 here to call churches back to men and it's it's interesting you know just the smallest things that

00:44:53.340 your church does to make churches uh that make it more welcoming to men will pay huge dividends down

00:45:00.380 the road um in my book i tell the story of a of a pastor's conference every uh spring i do this

00:45:07.180 pastor's conference down in illinois and one time i was speaking to this group of about 80 pastors

00:45:11.980 and i always throw out this junk question at the beginning i say um any of you pastors

00:45:17.100 ever do any of you pastors have more active men than women in your church

00:45:22.380 and uh nobody ever raises their hands well this one particular time this one teeny little hand

00:45:26.940 rose up in the back and this particular hand had nail polish on it and so i kind of looked and it's

00:45:33.420 this petite woman five foot two who is she's a female pastor in a methodist church in the middle

00:45:39.420 of a cornfield in a little town in illinois and i said perhaps you didn't hear my question right i

00:45:44.460 asked if you have more active men than women in your church she goes oh yes i do and i said well how on

00:45:50.380 earth is that possible i said what's your name she goes oh my name is reverend jennifer wilson i'm the

00:45:55.180 pastor of of uh grace united methodist church and i said you know how is this possible how do you have

00:46:00.060 more men than women and she goes well i read your book and i did everything you said so um i later

00:46:06.460 interviewed her actually did a documentary about her a 13-minute documentary called amazing grace a

00:46:11.660 church a church for men you can see it on youtube you can see it on my website but what she did is she

00:46:16.940 just began to make very man-friendly changes to her church she repainted she redecorated she got the

00:46:23.100 guys together on a regular basis she designated a very strong guy as the men's ministry leader

00:46:28.780 started leading more dangerous missions into the urban areas around chicago and illinois

00:46:35.580 bigger vision type things put tvs up in the sanctuary uh just you know for projecting images always plays

00:46:42.300 videos off youtube on sunday kept her sermons short i mean she basically created a more

00:46:47.180 man-friendly environment and in three years her church doubled in size she saw a huge growth among

00:46:53.420 the young men um so just these little cultural changes reaped huge benefits even with a woman in

00:46:59.500 the pulpit so i would say that any church out there no matter what your size no matter what your polity

00:47:04.940 no matter what you preach you have the you have a very strong avenue for growth if you'll simply

00:47:10.700 create an environment where men will sit and stay long enough to hear the gospel and have their lives

00:47:15.580 transformed and that's what churches around the country and around the world are doing by focusing

00:47:19.900 more on their men and boys fantastic well david murrow thank you so much for your time it's been a

00:47:23.740 pleasure thank you for having me on the show my guest today was david murrow he's the author of the

00:47:28.060 book why men hate going to church is available on amazon.com you can also find more information about

00:47:32.300 david's work at church for men.com also check out the show notes at aom.is slash murrow where you can

00:47:38.460 find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic

00:47:54.060 well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice

00:47:58.060 make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com our show is edited by creative

00:48:03.020 audio lab here in tulsa oklahoma if you need any audio production needs or any audio editing needs check

00:48:07.660 them out at creativeaudiolab.com as always we appreciate your continued support one way you

00:48:11.900 can do that is to give us a review on itunes or stitcher really helps out a lot thank you so much

00:48:15.580 and until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay manly

The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

#253： Why Men Hate Going to Church

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