The Art of Manliness - #256： Leadership Under Fire

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:18.180 Practicing good leadership is difficult enough in everyday situations. Practicing good leadership

00:00:22.260 when you're literally under fire, whether from bullets or actual flames, truly puts your leadership

00:00:26.280 skills to the test. My guest today has experienced both kinds of fire and not only lived to tell

00:00:30.080 about it, but distilled out the lessons every man can learn from those life or death experiences.

00:00:34.300 His name is Jason Bresler and he's both a Marine combat veteran and a current firefighter for the

00:00:38.100 New York City Fire Department. Bresler not only served in Iraq and Afghanistan and works in the

00:00:41.880 New York Fire Department Special Operations Command, but he's also the owner of a leadership

00:00:45.140 consulting firm called Leadership Under Fire that teaches organizations how to develop leaders that

00:00:49.700 are able to make critical decisions and lead their teams to success when under pressure.

00:00:53.440 Today on the show, Jason and I talk about the experience in Fallujah, what it takes to become

00:00:57.100 a firefighter with the New York City Fire Department, and lessons on leadership and decision-making

00:01:01.000 from battling both human enemies and hot flame. After the show's over, check out the show notes

00:01:04.900 at aom.is slash leadership under fire, where you can find links to resources. We can delve deeper

00:01:09.180 into this topic. Jason Bresler, welcome to the show. Hey Brett, thanks for having me. Well,

00:01:20.140 you got a really interesting resume. You're a combat Marine. You are a firefighter for the New York

00:01:27.420 Fire Department in their Special Operations Command. You also are leading up this organization called

00:01:31.900 Leadership Under Fire, where you teach other organizations, civilians, law enforcement

00:01:36.460 organizations, leadership, tactics, skills, mindsets that you've learned and acquired through

00:01:41.620 your experience as a firefighter and a Marine. And we'll get to Leadership Under Fire, but let's talk

00:01:46.620 about your background first. You served as a U.S. Marine in combat missions in Iraq and Afghanistan

00:01:51.800 and are still currently a major in the Marine Reserves. What lessons in leadership have you

00:01:57.760 learned from being a Marine and from that experience? Well, the leadership lessons I learned

00:02:03.480 in combat are many. And I should probably first mention that the lessons I learned are lessons that

00:02:10.780 I learned from my peers, seasoned commanders who I worked for, and most significantly, the men under my

00:02:18.920 charge who were routinely assuming tremendous personal risk in incredibly lethal settings. And I also

00:02:26.360 learned a great deal from our Afghan and Iraqi counterparts who assumed the greatest amount of risk

00:02:32.660 while having the most at stake. And unfortunately, their contributions sometimes to the campaign

00:02:36.700 receive much less attention. But as it relates to combat leadership lessons, there's generally the four

00:02:42.920 themes or four categories that I kind of connect them to that I think are the most, where I learned the most

00:02:49.460 significant lessons. One would be the art and science of decision making, critical thinking, risk management.

00:02:57.040 Another area would be leadership development and the imperative to continuously develop

00:03:01.440 leaders regardless of rank. Another area would be what we call human factors and the overwhelming role

00:03:08.620 that human factors, most notably the mental aspect, have in both performance and outcomes.

00:03:13.680 And another area would probably be

00:03:16.700 the critical importance of generating tempo in highly competitive, complex, and resource-limited

00:03:22.580 environments. More specifically, there are a few lessons that my Marines and I learned time and time

00:03:28.360 again. And lessons that I think or firmly believe transcend the battlefield. And those would be that

00:03:35.300 technology. Technology is helpful, but it has considerable limitations. And leaders in units that rely too heavily

00:03:43.040 on technology for victory often experience defeat. And as a Marine, and I think this is true for many

00:03:51.820 Marine commanders, we look at the purpose of technology as being to enhance human performance, not necessarily

00:03:57.620 replace it. Another lesson I learned relates to the mental aspect of performance.

00:04:04.560 And I firmly believe that the mental aspect of performance is too often neglected.

00:04:09.500 A combat unit that possesses great technical and tactical skill and superior physical conditioning must

00:04:15.560 still possess mental toughness to achieve success, as well as resilience in the face of loss or even on some

00:04:21.880 occasions, catastrophic loss. Mental toughness is really the product of will.

00:04:27.620 And I like to say skill is great, but Will Trump's skill and mindset certainly matters.

00:04:33.560 And last, another lesson I learned that I think is invaluable is that training is imperative.

00:04:39.500 And it must be three things. It must be responsible in that it must not cause harm or injury to your troops.

00:04:47.560 But at the same time, it must be relevant and realistic. And it must be three dimensional.

00:04:53.500 And what I mean by that is it must include tactical, physical and mental aspects.

00:04:59.440 Nearly everything we do in combat is nothing more than a series of basic actions.

00:05:05.380 But those actions done under tremendous pressure.

00:05:08.380 And one of the things that my team learned, particularly in Fallujah, and we had reaffirmed for us on several occasions,

00:05:15.380 is that regardless of how much you train and how many scenarios you train for, you inevitably find yourselves in situations

00:05:21.320 that you have no SOP for or even a mental model for.

00:05:24.320 And as frustrating as this can be, the bottom line is that a well-trained outfit that possesses unit cohesion

00:05:31.700 will have the skills to mitigate the unanticipated predicaments.

00:05:35.260 So they're just, you know, a few lessons that I learned that were certainly true in combat and I think transcend the battlefield.

00:05:47.080 Right. So it seems like some of the phrases and words you've been saying, it seems like you're highly,

00:05:51.820 you're heavily influenced by John Boyd and his OODA lube. Would that be, if you talk about tempo and complex systems and unit cohesion,

00:06:00.840 that's stuff that John Boyd talked about 50 years ago.

00:06:04.040 I would certainly consider myself a scholar, a Boyd scholar.

00:06:11.080 In recent years, I've had the good fortune of being mentored by a Marine commander, retired Marine colonel by the name of Mike Wiley.

00:06:20.560 Colonel Mike Wiley was one of Boyd's peers in the Marine Corps, and they worked to bring reform to the Marine Corps.

00:06:30.800 So I certainly am, you know, a huge advocate of Boyd and think that his work, you know, the lessons that he learned and sought to share with others.

00:06:46.880 And that aspect, that mental toughness part really interests me.

00:06:51.220 So you said that, you know, will trump skill, but how do you train that?

00:06:54.940 How do you develop that in someone?

00:06:56.220 Or is it something that's innate in somebody and you just have to pull it out of them?

00:06:59.660 Or can you actually develop that?

00:07:01.940 No, I think it can be developed.

00:07:04.580 And, you know, it's kind of a cliche, but it starts with your why and understanding your motivational factors and those motivational forces.

00:07:14.760 And I think any time you're part of a team and you're part of something bigger than yourself,

00:07:19.160 you're going to be more likely to display mental toughness, particularly when you're experiencing some level of suffering,

00:07:27.840 whether it be from fatigue or hunger or sleep deprivation.

00:07:33.020 And I got to borrow, you know, kind of Stu Smith's take on it.

00:07:36.600 Stu is somebody who certainly had a lot of influence on me as a member of the Leadership Under Fire team.

00:07:40.800 But Stu breaks it down to something as simple as mental toughness is learning to be comfortable being uncomfortable.

00:07:46.600 And I think that every day, if you're doing things to make yourself uncomfortable in some form or fashion,

00:07:51.960 you're consistently and continuously developing mental toughness that will pay dividends for you in combat.

00:07:59.080 Yeah, or when you really need it.

00:08:00.920 So you're a firefighter with the New York City Fire Department Special Operations Command.

00:08:05.760 I'm curious, in what ways is the leadership style at the New York Fire Department and the Marines similar or different?

00:08:12.760 A lot of things you picked up in the Marines were you able to transfer over to your career as a firefighter?

00:08:17.880 Sure. Well, there's certainly some differences between leadership in the military and the fire department.

00:08:23.380 But there are probably more similarities than differences.

00:08:26.440 I think the fire department can sit similar to law enforcement.

00:08:29.640 We can consider ourselves paramilitary organizations.

00:08:31.940 And I think most significantly, leaders who are most respected in the fire department are several things.

00:08:37.680 They're tactically competent.

00:08:38.980 They're physically fit.

00:08:40.680 They're calm under fire and equally significant.

00:08:44.460 They're genuinely concerned with not only the capabilities of their firefighters under their charge,

00:08:48.700 but the welfare of their firefighters under their charge.

00:08:52.560 And I think in that regard, the fire department is very similar to the military as it relates to leadership.

00:09:00.040 Gotcha. And kind of speaking about your career with the military,

00:09:07.200 you've actually started another organization called the Patty Brown Program, 0.91

00:09:09.680 which helps military veterans transition to becoming firefighters.

00:09:14.360 What's the hardest part of that adjustment for veterans going from military to fire department?

00:09:22.120 Or is there not a problem with transition?

00:09:25.740 Well, there's certainly some challenges.

00:09:27.020 And I think before we look specifically at or speak specifically to the challenge from going to military,

00:09:33.600 the fight department, we should talk just briefly about the challenge from going from the military to the civilian world.

00:09:38.660 And I think that it's the case that many young warriors risk being disconnected from a mission and the camaraderie

00:09:47.260 as they transition out of the military.

00:09:48.780 The young combat vet who transitions into the civilian world risk losing a sense of purpose.

00:09:55.760 And history shows us that in many instances when that connection to something greater is lost,

00:10:00.480 the mental and emotional health of the vet suffers.

00:10:06.260 But the fire service, both in paid and volunteer aspects,

00:10:09.540 offers somewhat of a natural transition where the combat vet can put his unique skills and experiences to good use.

00:10:15.880 What we've seen and heard is that post-9-11 vets commonly indicate interest in transitioning to the fire department

00:10:23.700 or to law enforcement.

00:10:25.580 And I don't think that's surprising given that the missions are probably more similar than they are different.

00:10:30.800 And the reality is that firefighting, the harsh reality, though, is that firefighting jobs are hard to come by.

00:10:35.600 And getting hired by a fire department requires a certain degree of insider baseball knowledge and navigation.

00:10:41.100 So, all of this said, we thought it appropriate to create a program, a nonprofit,

00:10:49.380 named after the iconic legacy of Captain Patrick Brown,

00:10:53.780 who was a New York City Fire Department captain who made the supreme sacrifice on 9-11 at the Trade Center.

00:10:59.020 And prior to joining the New York City Fire Department in the 70s, Patty was an infantry Marine in Vietnam.

00:11:03.060 And Pat Brown faced a number, an array of obstacles and struggles upon his return to civilian life.

00:11:10.960 And despite the trauma and the challenges, Patty just inevitably found ways to serve, lead, and mentor,

00:11:19.240 displaying great courage and strength and resilience.

00:11:22.260 So, we thought it really fitting to name this program, or a program that strives to assist veterans

00:11:27.400 navigating through the difficult and stressful processes transitioning after someone as iconic as Patty Brown.

00:11:35.620 Right. So, what your program does is just help them navigate through all the hoops and the difficulties

00:11:41.140 that it is to get an acquired job in firefighting.

00:11:44.320 Yeah. Probably one of the more important aspects of the program is that a vet will come to us.

00:11:48.840 Yes. Let's just say he's in the Army, he's at Fort Bragg, he's looking to leave the Army,

00:11:55.740 and he's interested in becoming a professional firefighter somewhere.

00:11:58.240 He'll contact us, and our program manager will work to identify what region he's potentially interested in,

00:12:04.340 and then we'll link him up with a mentor, a Patty Brown mentor.

00:12:07.420 And that mentor is someone who was previously in the military, likely served in combat,

00:12:11.720 and they've already gone through the transition, and they kind of know the ins and outs.

00:12:15.060 And they also understand some of the nuances and intricacies of getting hired by fire departments,

00:12:20.380 because at times it's daunting and pretty challenging.

00:12:22.900 And that mentor will help that young vet or that transitioning vet through that process.

00:12:27.960 And that's probably, the mentoring aspect is by far the most significant, you know,

00:12:33.940 the most critical element of the Patty Brown program.

00:12:36.320 So I know a lot of guys dream of becoming a firefighter, particularly for the New York Fire Department.

00:12:42.160 But it's a tough, tough gig to land.

00:12:45.160 What qualities do successful candidates for the job possess?

00:12:48.660 So I think there's probably a lot of ways to answer this question,

00:12:53.620 because the reality is that there's a lot of qualities that will lead a candidate to success in the fire department.

00:13:00.040 And a lot of these traits, not surprisingly, are probably consistent with what leads someone to be successful in the military.

00:13:08.140 But a person who wants to join the FDNY and be successful absolutely must be a team player.

00:13:14.480 He or she must also be physically fit and possess an aptitude to learn a wide variety of tactical skills

00:13:22.680 and hone them so that they can be executed under pressure in a team setting.

00:13:29.220 And a successful person will be dedicated to lifelong learning, learning and teaching every day,

00:13:34.080 ultimately to continue to strengthen the self and team.

00:13:39.060 There are a number of attributes that we could discuss,

00:13:41.560 but I really think that a resilient, positive attitude is the biggest key.

00:13:44.780 If you want to be a firefighter and have,

00:13:48.420 you just have to have a correct view of service and sacrifice

00:13:52.160 and kind of like what your role is in that organization as it relates to organization.

00:13:56.640 You know, somewhat of an altruistic approach.

00:14:01.680 And you have to have that foundation.

00:14:03.740 And I think coming in an organization, understanding, you know, understanding your why,

00:14:10.220 if you understand your why and you have that foundation,

00:14:12.100 then you're much more likely to be committed to physical fitness,

00:14:15.940 the types of learning and practicing skills over the course of your career that's going to make you successful.

00:14:20.740 Our job, you know, firefighting, New York City and beyond has an operational tempo.

00:14:27.020 And the career has demands that can be really tough sometimes.

00:14:31.640 And some of the emergencies that we respond to and the types of fires and emergency events are only increasing in complexity.

00:14:39.480 But I think having a positive mental attitude and understanding your why really helps an individual to be effective,

00:14:46.640 independent part of the team.

00:14:47.840 And but but ultimately, I would probably conclude by saying that the traits and skills to make us a successful firefighter

00:14:55.140 are generally predicated on on having the right attitude.

00:14:59.280 Right. And even among those who get selected for the department,

00:15:03.180 are there things that younger guys new to the job, new to the job struggle with?

00:15:07.820 Yeah, there's certainly things that guys struggle with.

00:15:11.760 And like I said earlier, similar as it is to the military, there's certainly differences.

00:15:17.840 One of the great things about the fire service is, you know, for starters, is it's it's steeped in tremendous tradition.

00:15:25.600 And one of the best things about the fire service is that junior guys, you know,

00:15:30.940 particularly places like the New York City Fire Department are extremely deferential to senior guys.

00:15:35.140 And, you know, this generally is a good thing.

00:15:38.140 Of course, there's sometimes where this dynamic somewhat parochial is not ideal because departments resist change.

00:15:45.300 Sometimes even when it's in their best interest.

00:15:48.140 But but generally, the tradition is what makes the fire service special and unique.

00:15:51.720 But guys and gals who are entering our X kind of need to know this up front because ultimately it takes time to earn the respect of senior members.

00:16:00.660 And some of the things we communicate to guys in the Patty Brown program or vets that we mentor is, you know, we don't really it doesn't really matter that you what you did prior to joining the fire department.

00:16:09.120 You could have been a Silver Star recipient or Division One All-American.

00:16:13.060 And it doesn't really matter to most guys when you walk into the fire your first day.

00:16:16.720 What matters is your willingness and effort to establish yourself as a capable firefighters, as a as a capable firefighter.

00:16:23.780 And firefighters and fire officers are confident, but they are also equally humble.

00:16:29.340 Even guys, you know, guys with 35 years in the business, some of the guys I work with possess a tremendous amount of humility because they know that firefighting had quickly has a way of humbling you.

00:16:41.420 Yeah.

00:16:41.960 So don't have a chip on your shoulder too much of a one sense of entitlement.

00:16:47.840 Not welcome here.

00:16:48.560 Right.

00:16:49.680 Right.

00:16:51.400 So, you know, in addition to being a firefighter, you also, as we said earlier, you have this leader development course called Leadership Under Fire, where you take the lessons you learned in combat and teach them to organizations like in the areas of business or sports.

00:17:04.820 So, I mean, what is what is the leader development course look like at Leadership Under Fire?

00:17:09.280 Well, much of it's based on things that that I and members of my team and the Marines I served with learned in combat, specifically in Fallujah at the height of the insurgency.

00:17:23.440 And we we came back and we spent a few weeks and months and probably even years reflecting on our experiences there and our lessons learned, many of which were, quite frankly, counterintuitive.

00:17:34.720 And we sat down and we said, you know what?

00:17:37.280 A lot of these have relevance.

00:17:40.000 You know, they transcend just the battlefield and they have a lot of value in all walks of life, business, finance, certainly firefighting, law enforcement, sports.

00:17:49.600 So that's why we we named the concept Leadership Under Fire and it's team based.

00:17:57.240 But in some instances, what we find is that folks in business, sports or even the fire service are uncomfortable with a leadership philosophy that was developed in combat.

00:18:05.940 But here's what we communicate to them.

00:18:07.160 And here's the bottom line, whether you're a leader in business or finance, sports or the fire department, you're managing resources in a time competitive environment where there's a tremendous amount of pervasive amounts of uncertainty, risk, fluidity, friction, competition and most significantly the human factor.

00:18:27.100 And at Leadership Under Fire, we firmly believe that successful leaders are those leaders who are capable of thriving in uncertain and dynamic competitive environments.

00:18:38.220 One of the things that combat reaffirmed for me time and time again was that the best leaders were those who were not just tactically competent, but those who were physically fit, mentally tough and most significantly morally fit.

00:18:52.040 And I think Leadership Under Fire, we really work to continue to prepare leaders and organizations for the moral, physical and mental rigors critical to peak performance and mission oriented leadership in highly competitive settings.

00:19:04.580 And you can make the argument that there's value in this in any trade or industry.

00:19:12.020 Right. So let's talk about this mission oriented leadership.

00:19:15.760 I mean, what does that look like?

00:19:16.760 Is that just like having the why of why you're doing what you're doing?

00:19:19.700 Well, I certainly think that's a key component.

00:19:24.440 I think any leader needs to understand the why.

00:19:27.440 And what we're starting to see now is something that the Marine Corps probably recognized a few years ago, compliments of folks like Colonel Wiley and John Boyd,

00:19:35.400 is that folks will ultimately need to understand the why and the what and how it will naturally follow, particularly in instances where there's a breakdown in communication.

00:19:44.380 But as it relates to mission oriented leadership, what I view mission oriented leadership as ultimately the willingness and desire of leaders on the part of leaders to prioritize mission accomplishment and the welfare of their subordinates over their own self self interest.

00:20:04.120 So most military units, especially the good ones, even in combat, prioritize accomplishing the mission over self preservation.

00:20:12.980 And I think that mission focused leadership is a commitment to ensuring that your priorities as a leader are consistent with the explicit mission of your organization.

00:20:22.280 You know, as being a member of the leadership under fire fire team, I've had the good fortune of speaking to firefighters and fire officers around the country.

00:20:35.040 And one of the first questions that I ask fire officers is, what is your primary responsibility as a fire officer, as a fire lieutenant, as a fire captain?

00:20:42.080 And surprisingly, an overwhelming majority of them tell me that they think they what they think they're supposed to say, ensuring the welfare of my men or my troops or my subordinates.

00:20:51.960 And it's certainly a noble response.

00:20:54.500 But the bottom line is, it's not really consistent with the mission statement of the fire service, which explicitly states that we serve to protect the lives, property of the lives and property of our of our citizenry.

00:21:06.640 And so mission oriented leadership has, I firmly believe that has more influence on performance and outcomes than any other factor.

00:21:15.400 And it, you know, even in whether it be combat or firefighting or law enforcement, that safe and favorable outcomes are not the product of risk aversion or rigid command and control.

00:21:25.400 You know, these types of things, but rather the product of doing mission oriented types of things, the right things at the right times for the right reasons, with mutual trust, you know, between the commander and his subordinates.

00:21:43.220 And so that that to me is what leaders mission oriented leadership is, Brett.

00:21:48.000 Yeah. And how do you convey that mission to your subordinates, right?

00:21:52.900 I mean, I think a lot of people who are in leadership positions, like they will come with some fantastic vision, but the hard part is helping getting others to catch that vision as well.

00:22:02.780 So what do you do to help people get the why, get the mission of what you're trying to do?

00:22:08.120 I mean, honestly, it's not a, you just need to talk about it and you need to talk about it consistently and everything that you do, you need to be able to connect back everything you do organizationally and everything that, you know, your folks are doing individually or in smaller teams.

00:22:24.200 You need to be able to tie it back to the mission.

00:22:26.460 Um, something as simple as I was talking to a mental performance coach reach recently, he was talking about bringing some cultural, um, change or, or seeking to enhance the quality of performance of a particular organization.

00:22:39.120 And he said that he had surveyed his folks and said, sat down with all the individual and said, what does it mean for you to be a, what does it mean for you to be in this organization?

00:22:47.540 What does this organization mean to you?

00:22:49.280 Like when you think of this organization, what, what, what does it convey?

00:22:52.560 And he said, he asked like 50 different folks and he got 50 different responses.

00:22:56.460 Um, you know, that, that's certainly problematic where I think if you, you, you were to come to my files in Brooklyn, you were asked the guys individually, Hey, what does it mean to be a member of this rescue company?

00:23:06.880 What does it mean to be a member of the New York city fire department?

00:23:09.740 By and large, they may use different language.

00:23:12.100 Um, and it may speak semantics, semantics, but, but I think ultimately they're really going to convey the same thing to you.

00:23:19.260 And I think that that, that display or that communication reaffirms that there's, there's a strong commitment to,

00:23:26.400 uh, to mission oriented, um, goals and mission oriented teamwork and mission oriented leadership.

00:23:33.380 And, uh, you talk a lot about thinking critically and making decisions.

00:23:37.300 That's an important aspect of leadership, but doing so in a competitive pressure filled environment where things are constantly changing is hard.

00:23:45.360 So how do you get better at making decisions when the pressure's on, when you're under fire, uh, so to speak?

00:23:51.900 Sure.

00:23:52.940 That's a great question, Brett.

00:23:54.720 And certainly, um, you know, it's high in this question because the fact is even, uh, the military units they've seen combat the most probably spend much more time training than they actually, um, find themselves in combat.

00:24:07.320 But one of the first things that we try to do or try to impart to leaders is a better understanding of how they actually make decisions.

00:24:14.340 And what we find is that many folks think they make decisions in a very rational, methodical fashion, um, in a high pressure situation.

00:24:21.280 And this, however, isn't necessarily the case and science, namely psychology and, and to some extent neuroscience suggested our brain has two modes of decision making, um, which any of your, you know, yourself or any of your readers that have read Kahneman are familiar with.

00:24:35.820 But, you know, the system one and system two models, or what some refer to as hot and cold system one, of course, being the primary mode when we were in a high pressure situation.

00:24:44.260 Um, and the science suggested decisions are based more on intuition, experience, and training than deliberate, uh, analytical process.

00:24:52.880 Um, ideally we, we, we build a large file cabinet experientially.

00:24:58.460 Uh, but the fact is at the end of the day, even the most motivated firefighter or Marine can't really control the quality of real world activity.

00:25:06.060 Um, but he can control how many, how much time he spends physically training and thinking about performing under fire.

00:25:12.980 Um, and, uh, I think like yourself and so much of your audience, uh, consider myself to be an avid reader and what leading scholars are telling us is consistent with what great leaders have all, have always intuitively known, um, that reading and thinking about scenarios, particularly scenarios that we haven't experienced firsthand, but possibly are likely to experience creates a mental model that will be then useful when we're making decisions under, under stress.

00:25:36.540 And, uh, and, uh, I would probably be amiss if I didn't reference a quote from perhaps one of the greatest war fighters, um, in the Marine Corps and certainly modern history.

00:25:46.140 And that's general James Mattis, um, kind of re reaffirms even just the value of, of reading and the influence it has on our decision-making capabilities is that thanks to my reading, general Mattis said, thanks to my reading.

00:25:59.040 Um, I've never been caught flat footed by any situation.

00:26:03.040 It certainly doesn't give me all the answers, but it lights what is often a dark path ahead.

00:26:09.100 And I think that that mindset, um, you know, certainly serves to, to prepare leaders to make decisions in stressful environments.

00:26:18.840 Right.

00:26:19.320 So fill that, that file cabinet with mental models, as many as you can by reading, by doing, et cetera.

00:26:26.600 Absolutely.

00:26:27.280 Yeah.

00:26:27.840 Um, you also talk a lot about tempo and generating tempo, um, and highly competitive, complex resource limited environments.

00:26:35.500 What do you mean by tempo?

00:26:38.080 Is it how fast something's going or is it, I mean, I think Boyd was talking about tempo a bit and he was sort of, I don't know, it wasn't very clear about what he meant by what, what do you mean by tempo?

00:26:48.360 And why is it so important for winning the day?

00:26:50.940 Right.

00:26:51.460 So the challenge sometimes is to take something that Boyd understood and, and first try to understand it.

00:26:57.100 And then the second challenge is to try to be able to integrate it into what we, what we do and make it practical.

00:27:02.180 Um, and then probably the final challenge is then to communicate it to, uh, to others.

00:27:07.280 So this certainly isn't going to be, um, temp, uh, you know, a view of tempo from the 30,000 or probably 40,000 Boyd, Boyd level.

00:27:15.400 But, you know, as it relates to kind of leadership under fire's take on, on tempo and how we view it relative to, to combat and firefighting, um, we view tempo really as being speed, speed relative to a problem set.

00:27:28.540 So not necessarily speed for the sake of speed, but speed relative to the problem set or, or more, uh, probably more accurately.

00:27:35.920 It's the ability to react faster than your opponent.

00:27:38.060 And whether it's sports combat, uh, law enforcement, firefighting, or business, if your team possesses the ability to develop a plan, uh, and execute it faster than your adversary or your competition, you're much more likely to defeat your opponent.

00:27:54.340 Uh, one of the best examples of this in sports is the know how to offense, right?

00:27:59.660 Or in baseball, a catcher calling his, his, uh, his own game, um, that creating that pace that your opponent cannot necessarily keep pace with both physically and mentally, um, you know, has, has tremendous effects.

00:28:15.660 Uh, on the battlefield, uh, the most effective units frequently can employ what we call an implicit command, which is really, uh, to some extent, very similar to a know how to offense where tactical actions are executed with a great deal of, without a great deal of instruction, um, because small leaders, uh, are trained to understand their commander's intent, right?

00:28:36.180 And the, the mission, regardless of the circumstances.

00:28:38.820 Um, and what's significant here is the commanders are willing to sacrifice control for initiative in the same way that a football coach, uh, that's using a know how to offense is willing to, to, to sacrifice some control, but for that greater initiative on the, on the field.

00:28:53.920 And the biggest requirement for generating tempo really is, uh, is mutual trust, a dynamic of trust between a commander, uh, and a, or a coach and a subordance or players that favors rapid, rapid action over, over, uh, deliberate action.

00:29:08.820 But tempo is, um, you know, it's, it's, it's graduate level stuff in terms of actually, uh, not only understanding it, um, and its components, but being able to actually generate it in a highly competitive, uh, environment.

00:29:24.900 One of the obstacles to generating tempo lies in the fact that I think that humans are really uncomfortable with uncertainty and many leaders, uh, would often prefer to, you know, generally collect more information, develop a more ideal plan.

00:29:38.820 Wait for more resources and kind of enable the situation to develop, reducing their level of, um, um, of uncertainty.

00:29:46.500 And there are certainly instances where having the patience to allow the situation to develop is prudent, but in many cases, the best approach is to, is to execute a plan and execute that plan rapidly in such fashion that your opponent cannot, cannot keep peace, uh, cannot keep, uh, pace with you.

00:30:02.020 Right. And it seems like also, uh, mission, mission focused leadership would, would comes back into play here because you want everyone in order to make those moves on their own.

00:30:10.580 They have to know the why of the mission.

00:30:12.240 Right. And if they understand the why, and if they understand the mission, then you're ultimately able to use mission tactics where you're not, you know, the commander or the coach isn't communicating the what and how to his, to his folks.

00:30:24.840 Um, they're doing it without that, without that, that communication transaction that saves tremendous time.

00:30:30.940 And if you're doing that and your opponent isn't, you have a tremendous advantage.

00:30:33.940 And that's why it's, it's not seed speed for the sake of speed, but it's speed relative to the problem set or speed relative to your opponent.

00:30:40.880 You don't need to be fast. You just need to be faster than your opponent.

00:30:43.880 Well, one of the maxims you live by and you talk about on the side is becoming harder to kill.

00:30:48.960 Uh, why should a leader who's not in the military, not a firefighter, why should, why should they focus on being harder to kill and what kinds of things make a man harder to kill?

00:30:59.940 Yeah. Great question, Brett. So I should probably start by, um, mentioning kind of the origins of, uh, this hard to kill cliche or, or mantra, um, and why we use it in leadership under fire, um, why we apply it to the fire department and why I think it has value beyond the fire department.

00:31:18.040 But a few years ago, I returned to the New York city fire department following combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan.

00:31:22.540 And I began to think differently about some of the cliches are very commonplace in, in, in the fire service.

00:31:29.740 Um, one being be, be safe, you know, firefighters often tell their fellow firefighters at the end of a tour, when they're going home, when guys are reporting in for work, Hey, be, have a safe tour, be safe.

00:31:39.300 Or some chiefs like the mantra, everyone goes home, meaning everyone, every firefighter goes home at the end of a tour.

00:31:44.660 And, um, you know, certainly these things come from, from their heart and with noble intentions.

00:31:52.740 Um, but what's happened is in recent decades, the fire service, the American fire service has embraced the culture of safety that at times, um, you know, that seeks to reduce the risk of injury and death to firefighters.

00:32:06.640 And this is obviously certainly noble, um, but the framework subsequently promotes several myths and fallacies at times.

00:32:13.460 And it leaves subordinates, uh, and kind of line officers sometimes confused as to what the mission is.

00:32:19.580 Is the mission the one I'm supposed to accomplish explicitly, or is it a mission me, me putting my, my folks and their welfare and my own interests first?

00:32:27.480 Um, and there's sometimes a little bit of a, of a conflict, a moral conflict that has taken place in the fire service.

00:32:34.640 And the same is probably certain true, certainly true for, for law enforcement.

00:32:38.560 Um, so the leadership under fire team then believed that making yourself hard to kill, which is a mantra we had used, uh, frequently in combat was much more appropriate and scientifically valid.

00:32:50.020 Um, because similar to combat, the hard to kill paradigm promotes mission accomplishment while also seeking to enhance survivability or rather reducing risk to injury and death.

00:33:00.820 And ultimately there, there are five fundamentals of making yourself hard to kill, um, and your troops hard to kill or your teammates hard to kill.

00:33:08.640 Uh, and they are one instilled tactical discipline, all right.

00:33:13.620 And tactical discipline is understanding the consequences of your actions and inactions, um, in an operational environment.

00:33:21.400 Two would be develop brilliance with the basics.

00:33:23.720 Like I mentioned earlier, uh, those, those guys are best, the best firefighters and the best combat operators generally are just very, very good at the basics, but being able to execute them under tremendous pressure.

00:33:35.300 Um, the third fundamental would be understanding the operational environment and seeing the bigger picture.

00:33:40.300 So even at the individual level, when you're executing an action, you understand what the ramifications are as it relates to everyone else in your team or everyone else on the battlefield or else on the fire ground or everyone else in your, uh, you know, in your, in your business.

00:33:52.520 Um, another fundamental is conduct realistic and relevant training.

00:33:56.760 I think I mentioned earlier, but it's this type of training needs to be three dimensional.

00:34:00.340 It needs to be a tactical and technical element, a physical element, an equally significant, a mental element.

00:34:05.380 And number five, the fifth fundamental would be to just develop that, that sense of mental toughness, developmental toughness, learning to be uncomfortable.

00:34:13.100 And I think you put those five things together and you're going to enhance your, your level of survivability, whether it be on the battlefield, um, on the fire ground, it fires in emergencies or, or, or in business.

00:34:25.140 You're going to be, uh, you're going to be, as we like to say, hard to kill.

00:34:28.100 So, so what's the connection between a leader's mental, moral, and physical abilities?

00:34:34.660 I mean, what role does mental toughness play in physical, physically performing well under pressure and vice versa?

00:34:41.280 Well, as far as the connection between a leader's mental and moral and physical abilities, uh, the leadership under fire team, we as a team view performance, uh, about the performance of a leader as a hierarchy comprised of four tiers.

00:34:55.960 And if you look at those four tiers, the bottom tier is your fundamental skills.

00:35:00.760 Those are your, your tactics, your techniques, your procedures.

00:35:03.800 The second tier then is physical conditioning, um, the stamina, the mobility, the agility, um, the endurance.

00:35:11.840 All right.

00:35:11.980 The third tier then represents mental toughness and mental toughness ranges from everything from, from being mentally tough to having, um, developmental skills to being a critical thinker.

00:35:23.200 And then most significantly that the top tier of that hierarchy is, is more obligation.

00:35:29.300 And what we think is that the best leaders, those who really create a legacy and are to be emulated, um, are those leaders who foster an appreciation for every tier of that performance hierarchy, ranging from the fundamentals, uh, to the moral imperative, the moral obligation.

00:35:44.000 Our team believes that using this performance hierarchy to sequence personal and professional development helps create better people and ultimately better people are, are better leaders.

00:35:54.340 And when we talk about better people, you know, leadership on fire, we're not talking in general terms, but specific ones.

00:35:59.900 We want to help build the leader who embodies and can articulate the values of moral and ethics in leadership.

00:36:06.060 A leader is mentally strong, resilient, um, and a reflective, critical thinker.

00:36:12.540 And, uh, you know, the exciting thing about this today is what started in Fallujah 10 years ago has evolved and has evolved beyond the fire department.

00:36:20.460 And we're doing this today with leaders in public safety, sports and business.

00:36:25.160 Let's go back to this, this, this moral aspect.

00:36:27.420 Cause I think, I think people would see how you can develop physical fitness.

00:36:30.800 You can put them on a physical regimen program.

00:36:32.520 There's a, you can teach better mental models and how to think and make decisions better, but how do you, how do you develop a moral compass within a leader?

00:36:42.280 What's the process look like there?

00:36:44.740 Well, let me first start by saying that I believe that leaders who are not morally fit, um, or, or rather unable to analyze the ramifications of their decisions and actions from a moral perspective aren't leaders, but are merely managers.

00:37:00.000 And my father, um, who's a retired fire chief, someone I look up to, uh, immensely likes to say leader, managers do things right, but leaders do the right thing.

00:37:12.560 And I, I believe in the leadership under fire team believes that moral fitness is demonstrated by doing the right things at the right times for the right reasons.

00:37:21.540 All right.

00:37:21.980 And that's certainly not an easy, certainly not an easy, easy, easy task.

00:37:27.480 Um, but similar to the same, you know, to the fashion in which leaders develop, uh, mental toughness and leaders develop technical skill and leaders develop physical fitness.

00:37:38.620 Um, they must also actively develop, uh, moral fitness.

00:37:43.440 And, you know, like I earlier, as it relates to how do you develop, how do you become a better decision maker under stress?

00:37:49.500 You spend a lot of time thinking about it.

00:37:51.300 And the more time you spend thinking about moral and ethical dilemmas in, in great scenarios, in great situations, whether you're a business leader, whether you're a fire chief or whether you're a combat battlefield commander, um, I think you're much better prepared, uh, to make the kind of decisions that are consistent with the leader that the type of leader.

00:38:13.420 That you want to be and are consistent with what your expectation or, or your clients or your citizenry or your constituency expects from you.

00:38:21.900 Well, Jason, this has been a great conversation.

00:38:23.980 Where can people learn more about leadership under fire?

00:38:26.160 Well, Brett, uh, for starters, we have a website, www.leadershipunderfire.com.

00:38:31.720 Um, we also host a national conference each year that features, uh, accomplished leaders with wide ranging operational experiences, uh, from the battlefield, competitive sports, law enforcement, business, the fire service.

00:38:42.200 And, uh, our fifth annual conference is upcoming.

00:38:45.840 It will be held in Columbus, Ohio in March, 2017.

00:38:49.380 And that's a great place to come and familiarize yourself with leadership under fire and find yourself surrounded by, by like-minded folks.

00:38:57.140 Fantastic.

00:38:57.620 Well, Jason Bresler, thank you so much for your time.

00:38:59.280 It's been a pleasure.

00:39:00.460 Hey, Brett, the pleasure is mine.

00:39:01.420 Thank you.

00:39:02.120 My guest today was Jason Bresler.

00:39:03.320 He's the owner of leadership under fire.

00:39:05.060 You can find out more information about what they do there at leadershipunderfire.com.

00:39:08.940 Also, check out our show notes at aom.is slash leadershipunderfire, where you can find links to resources.

00:39:13.960 We can delve deeper into this topic.

00:39:27.200 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:39:30.400 For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com.

00:39:34.560 Our show is edited by Creative Audio Lab here in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

00:39:37.480 If you have any audio editing needs, check them out at creativeaudiolab.com.

00:39:41.220 As always, we appreciate your continued support.

00:39:43.100 Give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher.

00:39:44.480 It helps us out a lot.

00:39:45.360 Thank you again.

00:39:46.200 And until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.

The Art of Manliness - November 29, 2016

#256： Leadership Under Fire

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