The Art of Manliness - #258： Honor, Courage, Thumos and Plato's Idea of Greek Manliness

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. So I'm a

00:00:18.880 classics guy. It's what I studied in college. So the ancient Greeks and Romans informed a

00:00:22.640 lot of my ideas about what manliness means, particularly in regards to the way they equated

00:00:27.140 manliness with living a life of virtue. And one of the best books that I've come across

00:00:31.020 on how the Greeks saw manliness as intertwined with virtue is by Professor Philosophy Angela

00:00:35.560 Hobbes. In her book, Plato and the Hero, Courage, Manliness, and the Impersonal Good, Hobbes goes

00:00:40.720 into detail, clarifying Greek concepts related to manliness, including the wild Homeric virtues

00:00:45.700 of Andrea, that's courage, thumos, spiritedness, and timei, that's honor. And today on the show,

00:00:51.400 Professor Hobbes and I discuss these ancient notions of masculinity in detail, as well as

00:00:55.340 why the philosopher Plato felt uneasy about them. We then talk about how a lot of what

00:00:59.620 Plato's philosophy was trying to accomplish was tempering these virtues so they can be

00:01:03.920 harnessed for the greater good of society and how that's influenced our notions of masculinity

00:01:07.680 today. A really fascinating show. After the show's over, check out the show notes at aom.is

00:01:12.720 slash Hobbes. That's Hobbes with two B's.

00:01:20.300 Professor Angie Hobbes, welcome to the show.

00:01:22.020 Thank you so much for inviting me. It's a great pleasure to be here.

00:01:26.200 So you're a philosopher, and the book of yours that I've read and I've really enjoyed

00:01:29.900 is called Plato and the Hero. And the reason why I liked it, because I'm a classics guy.

00:01:35.160 That's what I studied in college. And sort of the idea of masculinity that we're trying

00:01:39.920 to promote here on The Art of Manliness takes a lot of cues from the ancient Greeks, the ancient

00:01:43.820 Romans. And in the book, you argue that Plato was somewhat ambivalent about the Homeric

00:01:51.660 values that had guided ancient Greece and that all of his works, the Republic, all the dialogues

00:01:57.860 were, those were an attempt to temper or at least accommodate these sort of barbaric values

00:02:04.500 to something more rational and refined. So before we get into the specifics of how we,

00:02:10.040 how he did this, let's talk about these Homeric values. What were they and what do they look

00:02:16.000 like in action?

00:02:18.220 Yes. I'm not sure if barbaric is quite the right word, but certainly they comprised a set of values

00:02:27.620 which Plato thought needed to be interrogated. So the key quality that the Homeric male was striving

00:02:35.260 to achieve was, was, was Arata, excellence, and it combined intellectual, emotional, and physical

00:02:43.480 qualities. And for Homer, and for many of the writers after him, before Plato's time, your excellence

00:02:52.800 was very much geared to your social role. It depended on whether you were male or female, whether you were

00:03:01.820 a master or a slave, young or old, rich or poor, and so on. So gender, class, age are crucial to what

00:03:10.360 kind of qualities and behaviors you should be exhibiting. And a really lovely summing up of this Homeric

00:03:19.460 ethos, we actually find in an early Platonic dialogue called the Mino, where one of the characters whom

00:03:27.460 Socrates is interrogating, Mino himself, who's an aristocratic young man, and Socrates says to him,

00:03:34.200 what is Arata? And he, and Mino gives a Homeric response. And he says, oh, there's no difficulty

00:03:39.740 about saying what Arata is. If it's a man's Arata you're after, that's knowing how to run his affairs

00:03:47.320 capably and to stand up for himself and his family and sort of ward off his enemies and support his

00:03:57.400 friends. And if it's a woman's virtue you're after, that's in terms of running her house well and being 0.96

00:04:03.760 obedient to her husband. So very gender and class oriented. As we'll see later, Plato is going to 0.71

00:04:12.660 hugely interrogate that. But that's the basic idea in Homer. And if you're a man in Homer then it's

00:04:20.140 really crucial that you fulfill your manly duty of being excellent on a battlefield. What will that

00:04:28.180 involve? It'll involve physical strength, speed, skill at fighting, and of course the kinds of qualities

00:04:37.340 that make up what we would call courage. And some preeminent Homeric heroes who display these

00:04:45.500 qualities. Achilles would be one, Odysseus would be another. And again, we're going to find out how

00:04:52.080 Plato interrogates those role models and incorporates the best of him and discards what he regards as the

00:05:01.200 worst of them. So there is this very strong notion of what it is to be a, quote, real man. And preeminently

00:05:11.400 you're going to be good at fighting. You're going to be strong, you're going to be skilled, and you're

00:05:16.880 going to be brave. You've got the Homeric hero. He's being brave. Homer uses various words for that.

00:05:25.040 And absolutely key to whether you can be brave or not is whether you possess what Homer calls

00:05:34.000 thumos. This is a really interesting word, and it has both physical and spiritual connotations.

00:05:43.300 Initially it appears to have meant the breath. The breath viewed as a warm, moist vapour which

00:05:52.340 rises out of the boiling of the blood around your heart and lungs. But very quickly, this physical

00:06:01.000 breath and this physical boiling of the blood come to be seen as your life force, your metal, your

00:06:10.600 a certain spiritedness, which is absolutely requisite if you're going to be brave. So the Homeric hero,

00:06:21.400 the brave, able, strong Homeric hero, must have a very large quantity of this stuff called thumos, this

00:06:32.400 this breath, this life force, this raw drive or energy which is going to power his effectiveness on the

00:06:42.700 battlefield.

00:06:43.700 And I mean, how related to thumos is this concept of honour, or I think the Greek is time, time.

00:06:53.700 What role did time or time play in the ancient Greek conceptions of Andrea or manliness?

00:07:03.700 So again, in Homer, Tima is absolutely crucial to the hero's sense of himself. What he wants above

00:07:14.700 everything else is honour and glory. He wants to be respected and honoured by those around him, and that is

00:07:25.700 required for his own sense of self-respect. So it's very much about how you, what is your status in the

00:07:34.700 world? How do you feel you count in the world? What do you need to do to get honour? Well, the easiest

00:07:41.700 thing is to do whatever your society already honours. So it can appear that an honour-based ethos at first sight

00:07:51.700 looks as if it might be quite conservative. It might encourage the repetition of established patterns

00:07:58.700 of behaviour which have been proven to win honour from your peer group in the past, your society in the

00:08:06.700 past. And that is one of the things that Plato's going to get to grips with. So we have this society based on

00:08:18.700 on notions of courage, a particular conception of manliness, which is aimed at honour and excellent behaviour

00:08:28.700 preeminently shown on the battlefield.

00:08:31.700 So the thumos was sort of the driving force that propelled a man to seek out. 0.98

00:08:37.700 Exactly. Exactly. And sometimes Homer seems to use it to mean something very like boldness or courage itself.

00:08:45.700 Now, later than Homer, but before Plato, so sometime in the middle of the fifth century BC,

00:08:52.700 we get the arrival on the scene of this word Andrea, which literally means manliness.

00:09:00.700 It means the qualities and behaviours suitable, appropriate for a man to display.

00:09:08.700 And what is the most important quality for a man to display at this time?

00:09:16.700 Well, the qualities needed for him to perform his main social duty of defending his society and his family in times of war.

00:09:26.700 So your main manly qualities, again, going to be those which make you effective at fighting back to our physical strength,

00:09:35.700 our skill, our speed, how to use weapons and so on, the knowledge of how to use weapons.

00:09:41.700 But above all your courage. And as we've seen, having courage will require this thumos, this sort of spirited metal,

00:09:53.700 which is the engine force of your courage, which propels you forward.

00:09:58.700 And again, at some point in the fifth century, though Andrea literally means manliness, it came almost to be a shorthand for courage.

00:10:12.700 And it is the most usual word for courage at this time, which, of course, means that if you're trying to describe a courageous woman,

00:10:22.700 it's very difficult to do that without calling her manly.

00:10:28.700 And so we've got this very kind of complicated interweaving of ideas.

00:10:34.700 And a lot of the writers before Plato are aware of this and bring out these ambiguities in this word, Andrea,

00:10:45.700 particularly when they're talking about courageous women,

00:10:49.700 because they can't really do that without making some kind of comment, whether it's favorable.

00:10:55.700 Wow, look, a woman can be as courageous as a man.

00:10:58.700 We seem to get that in in Herodotus, a historian writing in the middle of the fifth century B.C.

00:11:06.700 But we also get critiques of women exhibiting Andrea before Plato.

00:11:14.700 A very famous example would be in the tragic poet Sophocles, writing in the fifth century B.C.

00:11:21.700 in his play Electra, where Electra is trying to avenge the slaughter of her father, Agamemnon,

00:11:31.700 who was slaughtered by her mother's lover, Aegisthus, in league with her mother, Clytemnestra.

00:11:37.700 And Electra is trying to persuade her sister, Chrysothomus, to help her slay Aegisthus to avenge their father, Agamemnon.

00:11:48.700 And Electra says, if we do this, everybody, you know, everybody's going to praise us for our Andrea.

00:11:56.700 And she presumably just means her courage.

00:12:00.700 But Chrysothomus picks up on the root meaning of the word and says, no, no, no.

00:12:05.700 It is not appropriate for women to display Andrea. 1.00

00:12:09.700 It's not appropriate for women to pick up arms. 1.00

00:12:13.700 And so there you get the playwright, Sophocles, very knowingly and in a very interesting way, exploring the ambiguities of this word Andrea.

00:12:26.700 The best word he's got available for courage, but of course, literally meaning manliness.

00:12:33.700 So all those sort of gendered expectations built in. 1.00

00:12:37.700 So that's what Plato has inherited.

00:12:42.700 A notion of virtue and moral excellence, which is very aligned to particular social roles, particularly as determined by gender and class.

00:12:54.700 And the idea that the preeminent male virtue is going to be courage to such an extent that the word for courage is literally this word Andrea, meaning manliness and all the consequent ambiguities for what happens when you want to talk about women being courageous.

00:13:14.700 Is it appropriate for women to be courageous? 0.98

00:13:19.700 That's a really complicated mix of ideas that Plato has inherited.

00:13:25.700 And before we get into how Plato explores these ambiguities with his work, particularly in the Republic, let's talk about courage more.

00:13:34.700 Because one of the things I love about Greek culture, ancient Greek cultures, that they have these words like thumos, that it's a very simple word, but it's a very, there's like this complex and very rich meaning.

00:13:46.700 And it's hard to pin down exactly what they're talking about.

00:13:50.700 And I think the same thing goes with courage.

00:13:53.700 As you just explained there, there's a lot of ambiguity with it.

00:13:58.700 I'm curious about the concept of courage, how the Greeks perceived courage.

00:14:04.700 It was an honor-based culture, and usually in honor-based cultures, outward displays are more important than internal motivations.

00:14:13.700 Was that the case with the Greeks?

00:14:16.700 Did internal motivations matter in determining whether one was courageous or had Andrea?

00:14:23.700 That's such an interesting question, and I don't think classical scholars would agree on an answer to that, because certainly at times it looks as if a display of courage in Homer, for instance, is all about the actions, as you say.

00:14:41.700 It's all about the behaviors.

00:14:44.700 And indeed, in the plural, to Andrea, that means your daring exploits on a battlefield.

00:14:53.700 However, the Greeks, way back as far as Homer, were very aware that those kinds of exploits, those kinds of actions, were much more likely to happen if they stemmed from the right kind of emotional drive.

00:15:14.700 So they, I think, my view is that they were very interested in the kinds of inner quality, the kinds of psychological quality that were required to bring about these tough actions which were going to, which either required the endurance of pain or death, or at the very least the risk of enduring pain or death.

00:15:43.700 I would say that they're always aware of the importance of a capacity for endurance, perseverance, this kind of raw spirited metal that we've talked about as being embodied in this concept of thumos.

00:15:57.660 So I thought it was interesting, too, in terms of courage and how the Greeks rated or judged the courage of someone.

00:16:07.180 You talk about this in your book, that this idea of techne or skill.

00:16:12.100 Now, we think of increasing your skill is awesome, like it makes you more powerful, more competent.

00:16:18.180 But the Greeks thought that if you had increased skill, it actually reduced your ability to claim Andrea in the battlefield.

00:16:27.280 Can you explain the sort of the intersection of skill and courage for the ancient Greeks?

00:16:31.920 OK, well, I think it varies very much on the writer because there's no question that some hero like Achilles is highly skilled and is also regarded as very courageous.

00:16:46.640 So I'm not sure if Homer sees there as being a tension between skill and courage.

00:16:52.400 However, you're absolutely right that there was a debate and it's particularly picked up in an early dialogue of Plato's called the Lakeys,

00:17:01.360 in which two generals, two old retired generals, are discussing what kind of education is best for a young man and what kind of training is most likely to result in manly, excellent, courageous behaviour on the part of the young man.

00:17:25.820 And they particularly ask about this notion of skill as a new technique, a new technique of fighting in armour required for the new kind of battle formation,

00:17:38.480 the new kind of hoplite battle formation, where instead of being in a chariot or on foot, dashing around a battlefield,

00:17:46.880 you stand in line and you hold your post and you protect the man on your left and your right.

00:17:55.820 And that's a new way of fighting, a non-Homeric way of fighting, which is requiring new kinds of skills.

00:18:02.640 And the skill of fighting in armour is preeminent.

00:18:07.280 And there is a really interesting debate about whether it's.

00:18:13.380 But if you fight and are very skilled and that reduces the risk, does that mean that you're less courageous?

00:18:20.760 So the question is, what's the relationship between courage and risk?

00:18:26.280 That's what's really at the heart of the question about the relationship between courage and skill.

00:18:32.180 Is it the case that the more risky the enterprise, the more courageous the action?

00:18:38.000 And certainly Plato raises the possibility that that no, there is no direct correlation between risk and courage,

00:18:47.340 because in certain circumstances, a very risky action might be just utterly hopeless and foolhardy and reckless and not likely to achieve anything positive at all.

00:19:01.740 Not even for, you know, the people you're trying to protect, in which case, taking the risk. 0.98

00:19:09.040 How can that be seen as courageous rather than just reckless stupidity? 0.92

00:19:15.220 So Plato wants to make a distinction between courage, which is always good in his mind, and boldness, which could be good or bad. 0.97

00:19:25.820 Now, on the other hand, if you have no risk whatsoever of suffering any kind of pain or harm,

00:19:39.540 then he would agree that action can't be courageous.

00:19:43.880 You've got to be enduring or risking enduring some kind of suffering for an action to count as courageous.

00:19:52.780 And if you're so skilled that it makes the situation completely safe, then that action can't count as courageous.

00:20:03.880 And Plato comes up, I think, with a really interesting solution.

00:20:08.840 I say a solution. It's an idea that's explored in the dialogue.

00:20:12.680 As ever, he never gives us a very clear answer about what he thinks himself,

00:20:17.960 because he wants us to think about these issues for ourselves.

00:20:22.780 And I think he thinks, yes, no risk at all can't be courageous.

00:20:29.320 But if you are skilled, that actually will increase your chances of performing a courageous action in two ways.

00:20:39.580 One, it will make you more likely to enter into the fray in the first place,

00:20:46.220 if you know there is a reasonable chance you could achieve something good.

00:20:49.960 You may not save your own life, but there's a reasonable chance that you can help protect your people.

00:20:56.820 And two, the fact that you're skilled, because it gives you some reasonable hope of achieving some of your aims in the fighting,

00:21:06.820 then that skill is what makes the difference between an act counting as courageous and an act counting as simply reckless folly,

00:21:18.440 which is not going to help you or your people or anybody in the world.

00:21:23.220 So what Plato does, I think, is say we can train for courage.

00:21:31.900 We can train to make to make it more likely that when the challenge comes, when the crisis calls, when our country calls for us,

00:21:43.380 it will be more likely that we'll take up that challenge.

00:21:47.700 I think the notion that a skill in itself doesn't make you courageous,

00:21:51.780 but a skill can make it more likely that you will act courageously when danger occurs,

00:21:58.320 that there is preparatory work you can do in order to be courageous.

00:22:03.780 I think that's a really interesting idea to explore.

00:22:07.600 That is interesting.

00:22:09.840 So, I mean, getting back to, so we've sort of laid out what manliness meant for the ancient Greeks,

00:22:16.720 so the Homeric inheritance.

00:22:19.100 It meant courage.

00:22:20.680 It meant seeking honor or glory.

00:22:23.980 And you had this, you were powered by this thumas, this spiritedness.

00:22:30.700 Why, but at the same time, as we've said earlier, Plato was a little ambivalent about this.

00:22:36.100 And I think you alluded to why, because it was, the concept of Andrea was,

00:22:41.400 it could be applied to women, but how can a woman be manly? 1.00

00:22:44.960 I'm sure that kind of confused ancient Greeks.

00:22:47.120 So was that part of the reason why Plato was sort of,

00:22:50.800 he felt like these masculine virtues needed to be interrogated more,

00:22:56.560 or that he was ambivalent about, that he needed to explore further?

00:23:00.020 He's certainly very interested in exploring the gender issues,

00:23:02.560 and I'll come back to that in a few moments.

00:23:05.200 His first issue is this notion of thumas, this raw drive, which is required for courage.

00:23:13.700 It's the engine room of courage, but left unguided by reason, left to its own devices.

00:23:21.140 It's very, very dangerous.

00:23:22.640 It can take people in good or bad directions.

00:23:25.080 It can give rise to enormous anger and rage and bloodthirst in us,

00:23:34.640 which might be useful if directed against the right enemies,

00:23:39.460 but of course can be hugely damaging if directed against your own side,

00:23:46.840 your own friends or your allies.

00:23:49.720 And in some cases, it might even eat you up.

00:23:53.860 It might be self-directed.

00:23:56.920 So Plato has this dilemma on his hands.

00:24:00.580 He's got this thumos, this raw drive, which he needs,

00:24:06.280 but he's got to somehow curb it, harness it,

00:24:12.160 utilise its forces for good.

00:24:14.480 And so that's his main aim in the early education section of the Republic,

00:24:22.460 in books two and three of the Republic,

00:24:24.900 when he's laying out an education system for the young auxiliaries 0.88

00:24:31.480 who are going to be the fighting force in his ideally just state.

00:24:36.240 And everything is geared to getting the correct balance in the education of thumos. 0.94

00:24:44.500 So it's toned up enough that it can inspire you to be courageous when needed.

00:24:51.380 So it mustn't be slack.

00:24:53.520 But at the same time, it's got to be something that is answerable to reason,

00:25:00.800 that can be guided by reason, and it can select and understand

00:25:06.620 who the true enemies are and who the true friends are,

00:25:10.580 so it doesn't attack the wrong people.

00:25:14.200 And Plato devises a really interesting mix of physical education,

00:25:19.300 but also what he calls musikare, a cultural education,

00:25:24.720 not just music, though music is included,

00:25:27.360 but in literature and the arts generally,

00:25:31.160 to tone down the rougher aspects.

00:25:35.840 And it's at this stage that we get him really interrogating

00:25:41.860 the epics of the Iliad and the Odyssey left by Homer

00:25:46.560 and asking questions about the role models in them

00:25:50.120 and whether censorship is needed

00:25:52.060 and whether these role models need reworking

00:25:55.260 for the kind of ideally just state that he's trying to build.

00:26:03.160 So he's saying,

00:26:05.520 how do we get the energy from thumos

00:26:09.500 without the untrammeled aggression and indiscriminate bloodthirstiness?

00:26:15.540 How do we get the right balance between courage and risk?

00:26:20.400 And he says that his definition of what he calls political Andrea,

00:26:27.240 political manliness, by which he means the kind of manliness

00:26:31.320 and courage appropriate within the polis,

00:26:35.300 within the city-state, within a civilized context.

00:26:39.040 And he says the aim is to dye, D-Y-E, the young trainee soldiers 0.98

00:26:47.840 in the correct notions of what is and is not to be feared.

00:26:58.320 As if you're kind of immersing them in like a sort of a fleece,

00:27:04.580 immersing a fleece in a vat of dye to color it.

00:27:07.960 He wants them absolutely impregnated with the correct beliefs 0.99

00:27:13.260 about what is and is not to be feared.

00:27:15.780 So they will never think twice.

00:27:18.200 They will just automatically do the right thing.

00:27:21.500 And the only thing that is to be feared

00:27:24.200 is moral shame, moral turpitude,

00:27:29.300 and a dishonorable sort of cowardly death.

00:27:32.840 The only thing that is shameful is moral dishonor.

00:27:38.760 And once you realize that physical death isn't to be feared,

00:27:43.680 that physical pain is not to be feared in itself,

00:27:48.580 the only thing that is to be feared is your moral wrongdoing,

00:27:52.500 then Plato thinks you've got the right basis

00:27:56.100 for exhibiting true courage,

00:28:00.020 courage that will be helpful to your community

00:28:02.320 rather than a wild, rash, boldness

00:28:06.440 that might sometimes help your community,

00:28:09.140 that might often harm it.

00:28:11.300 So it sounds like Plato,

00:28:13.180 it sounds like the Homeric values are very personal, right?

00:28:17.100 It's all about personal glory.

00:28:18.440 I'm doing this for myself.

00:28:19.880 And it sounds like Plato was trying to take that same energy,

00:28:23.100 that same drive and direct it to the greater good.

00:28:25.440 Would that be a correct statement?

00:28:28.180 I think that's, yes, I think that's a very astute comment.

00:28:31.480 It is very clear if you read the Iliad

00:28:34.420 that Achilles is very driven by both personal glory,

00:28:40.880 his quest for glory,

00:28:42.680 and also for his love for particular friends

00:28:48.100 such as his beloved Patroclus,

00:28:51.860 who later is portrayed as his lover,

00:28:55.020 though not in Homer himself.

00:28:57.980 In Homer, they're very close friends,

00:29:00.560 they're not lovers.

00:29:02.240 But Achilles' motivations, as you say,

00:29:04.700 are always personal.

00:29:07.380 And you do get,

00:29:09.480 there are certainly notions, however,

00:29:11.520 I mean, in Homer,

00:29:12.740 that this is one of the things

00:29:14.580 that Achilles should be critiqued for,

00:29:16.640 that he's not a team player.

00:29:19.240 And when he kind of abandons the battlefield

00:29:23.060 and goes off and sulks in his tent

00:29:25.720 because he feels his leader, Agamemnon,

00:29:28.760 has not given him sufficient honour,

00:29:31.580 Agamemnon has taken away Achilles' mistress.

00:29:34.600 And Achilles takes this as a personal slight.

00:29:37.680 He's not being rewarded properly for his courage.

00:29:40.620 And he goes off and sulks

00:29:42.200 and refuses to fight for a bit.

00:29:43.720 And you do get sort of an embassy

00:29:47.120 of the other Greek fighters

00:29:48.820 go to his tent to try to persuade him

00:29:51.180 to rejoin the team.

00:29:53.520 So there, you know,

00:29:54.680 there is certainly a debate in Homer

00:29:56.600 about what your real motivation should be.

00:30:01.880 And Plato certainly expands that debate

00:30:04.160 and says, absolutely,

00:30:06.620 you should regard yourself

00:30:08.320 as a part of a greater whole.

00:30:11.060 And there is a passage in The Republic,

00:30:14.100 a literally totalitarian passage,

00:30:17.400 in which, to summarise,

00:30:20.680 he's sort of trying to get rid of the adjectives

00:30:22.920 I and my

00:30:23.920 and replace them with we and our.

00:30:27.240 And he says that

00:30:28.560 we are all sort of parts of the state

00:30:31.600 as if, you know,

00:30:32.480 we were a finger or a toe

00:30:34.060 as a part of the body.

00:30:36.600 And this is the idea

00:30:38.280 that everything you do

00:30:39.740 should be ultimately motivated

00:30:41.720 by how it serves your community as a whole.

00:30:45.140 That's how you should see your place in the world.

00:30:48.360 So there are roots of that idea

00:30:50.200 in Homer and in other earlier writers.

00:30:54.120 But Plato really develops that.

00:30:57.040 And, you know,

00:30:57.440 you mentioned role models

00:30:58.580 were very important to Plato

00:30:59.820 in making his case.

00:31:02.200 So we just mentioned Achilles.

00:31:03.320 I guess Achilles for Plato

00:31:04.740 would be an example

00:31:06.660 of what not to do, right?

00:31:10.680 To some extent.

00:31:11.780 I mean, he does,

00:31:12.440 he has this interrogation of

00:31:15.700 and fascination with Achilles

00:31:17.440 throughout much of his early

00:31:19.920 and middle work.

00:31:22.280 And he comes back to Achilles

00:31:24.160 again and again,

00:31:25.060 and he clearly finds Achilles

00:31:27.020 very charismatic and glamorous,

00:31:29.440 as indeed he is.

00:31:30.760 He is the most glamorous

00:31:32.420 of the Greek warriors.

00:31:35.860 And Plato certainly doesn't want

00:31:37.020 to dismiss everything about Achilles.

00:31:39.360 You know,

00:31:39.580 that he just,

00:31:40.900 you know,

00:31:41.120 that embodiment of the life force

00:31:43.240 and vital energy

00:31:45.420 that is Achilles.

00:31:46.420 Plato wants to harness that.

00:31:48.400 But he's certainly very critical

00:31:50.380 of his wild blood firstness,

00:31:54.420 of his extremely destructive anger,

00:31:58.020 destructive both to himself

00:31:59.600 and to the other Greek fighters.

00:32:02.800 He's critical of his insubordination,

00:32:06.040 both to his commander Agamemnon

00:32:07.880 and to the gods,

00:32:09.320 because as you remember

00:32:11.480 in the Iliad,

00:32:12.760 Achilles even challenges 0.74

00:32:14.100 and lambasts the gods on occasion.

00:32:17.540 He's really a real force of nature.

00:32:20.840 And so Plato wants to harness the energy,

00:32:25.060 but to turn it into much more

00:32:27.240 constructive channels.

00:32:30.140 And what he does with Achilles

00:32:31.980 and also with Odysseus,

00:32:33.500 another very famous Greek fighter,

00:32:36.380 famous for his endurance

00:32:40.080 of all sufferings

00:32:41.860 and his ability finally

00:32:43.220 to make it home to Ithaca,

00:32:45.320 but also cunning,

00:32:46.860 wily,

00:32:47.560 untrustworthy.

00:32:48.300 So again,

00:32:48.980 not a perfect role model.

00:32:51.440 And what Plato does

00:32:52.380 with both of those

00:32:53.760 is to rework them

00:32:56.260 and remodel them

00:32:57.360 and keep the best bits

00:32:58.660 and in a way

00:32:59.660 try to put the best bits together

00:33:02.140 into a new model,

00:33:04.460 which is his version

00:33:06.540 of the historical Socrates,

00:33:09.460 who was Plato's mentor

00:33:11.880 and friend,

00:33:12.820 who didn't write anything himself

00:33:16.620 but tramped around Athens

00:33:18.240 discussing philosophy

00:33:19.720 with anybody would listen

00:33:21.600 and quite a few who wouldn't

00:33:23.100 and was put to death

00:33:26.360 by the Athenian democracy

00:33:27.780 in 399 BC

00:33:29.940 allegedly for corrupting the young

00:33:32.980 and introducing new gods

00:33:34.360 into the city-state,

00:33:35.700 though it was probably more

00:33:36.900 of a political show trial.

00:33:39.240 And Plato knows

00:33:41.960 he doesn't want to just

00:33:42.760 get rid of Homer

00:33:44.380 and the Homeric role models

00:33:45.620 because he can see

00:33:46.920 people's fascination for them.

00:33:49.700 He knows that the young men

00:33:51.220 he's trying to educate

00:33:53.660 are intrigued by them

00:33:57.700 and these heroes.

00:33:59.140 So he wants to utilize that,

00:34:01.060 but he wants to remodel them

00:34:02.560 and rework them.

00:34:03.580 He wants to explore questions

00:34:06.260 about does Andrea,

00:34:08.960 does this manless and courage,

00:34:11.080 can it only be displayed

00:34:12.440 on a battlefield?

00:34:13.640 Can it not be displayed

00:34:14.840 in peacetime,

00:34:16.660 in civilian life?

00:34:18.720 Could not a philosopher,

00:34:20.180 a thinker,

00:34:20.840 a writer

00:34:21.560 be just as courageous

00:34:23.080 as a military warrior?

00:34:25.940 Is not Socrates

00:34:27.800 a paradigm of courage

00:34:31.580 in sticking to his philosophical beliefs

00:34:35.420 all his life,

00:34:37.240 even when eventually 0.94

00:34:38.740 he gets put to death

00:34:40.280 for standing up for philosophy?

00:34:43.440 So Plato is trying

00:34:45.740 to extend the field

00:34:48.060 of Andrea,

00:34:50.120 of courage and manliness,

00:34:52.420 into other areas

00:34:54.100 and the military ones.

00:34:56.240 Plato also wants to question

00:34:58.260 whether Andrea courage

00:35:01.280 is specifically male

00:35:03.400 and his answer there

00:35:04.600 I think is quite clear

00:35:05.740 that no it isn't

00:35:06.920 that women and men 0.58

00:35:08.580 exhibit virtues

00:35:09.980 in the same way

00:35:11.440 and that in terms of virtue

00:35:13.180 your gender

00:35:13.900 is irrelevant

00:35:14.860 and there is very good evidence

00:35:17.420 that Plato gets this idea

00:35:20.140 from the historical Socrates

00:35:21.920 himself,

00:35:23.020 that the historical Socrates

00:35:24.460 taught that there

00:35:26.380 is no sort of role specificity

00:35:30.600 to virtue,

00:35:32.380 to excellence,

00:35:33.460 that it doesn't depend

00:35:35.180 on gender

00:35:35.980 or class

00:35:37.080 or money

00:35:37.720 or anything else.

00:35:39.000 It depends entirely

00:35:40.700 on your inner qualities

00:35:42.780 of character

00:35:43.500 and the kind of actions

00:35:44.600 that stem from them.

00:35:47.020 So Plato is really engaged

00:35:52.640 in this lifelong interrogation

00:35:56.980 of what does it mean

00:35:58.700 to be a real man?

00:36:00.800 What does it mean

00:36:01.880 to be courageous?

00:36:03.420 Are the two inevitably interlinked?

00:36:06.060 Can women be courageous too? 1.00

00:36:08.380 Plato says yes,

00:36:09.180 yes absolutely

00:36:10.200 because in his ideally just state

00:36:12.560 there are going to be brave women auxiliaries

00:36:17.540 or women in the fighting force

00:36:19.400 and there are going to be philosopher queens

00:36:21.800 as well as philosopher kings

00:36:23.940 and they're all to display Andrea.

00:36:28.060 And also as we've seen

00:36:29.780 Andrea depends on Thumos,

00:36:33.600 this life force,

00:36:35.940 this spirited element

00:36:37.320 which in Plato

00:36:39.820 becomes formalized

00:36:42.140 into the third part

00:36:43.700 of his tripartite notion

00:36:45.940 of the psyche.

00:36:47.560 So for Plato,

00:36:48.800 the psyche does not just consist

00:36:50.900 of reason and the appetites

00:36:52.720 but also this third part,

00:36:54.780 the thumos or thumoedes

00:36:56.920 which is a motivational set,

00:37:01.600 if you like,

00:37:02.920 of qualities

00:37:05.120 which are aimed

00:37:06.340 at success,

00:37:09.920 honour,

00:37:10.680 glory.

00:37:11.480 It's everything to do

00:37:13.180 with a sense

00:37:15.500 of ourselves,

00:37:16.520 of how we stand

00:37:17.460 in the world.

00:37:19.660 Do others respect us?

00:37:21.480 Do we respect ourselves?

00:37:23.620 A really important

00:37:25.280 motivational set.

00:37:26.540 In fact,

00:37:27.040 we've seen it

00:37:28.000 raised a lot

00:37:29.440 in international politics

00:37:30.960 in the last two

00:37:31.760 or three years.

00:37:32.700 people's very deep need

00:37:35.960 to feel

00:37:36.600 that they count

00:37:37.600 for something,

00:37:39.200 that they are heard,

00:37:41.040 they're listened to,

00:37:41.900 that they matter,

00:37:42.880 that they count,

00:37:43.840 that they have status

00:37:45.140 within their society.

00:37:48.160 And we may or may not

00:37:49.640 feel that all the ways

00:37:51.120 that desire

00:37:52.400 manifests itself

00:37:54.060 are helpful

00:37:55.580 and Plato would have said

00:37:57.660 exactly the same thing,

00:37:58.860 this desire

00:37:59.840 for respect

00:38:01.140 and honour

00:38:01.640 and to feel

00:38:02.200 you count

00:38:02.680 for something

00:38:03.280 can manifest itself

00:38:04.560 in both helpful

00:38:05.480 and unhelpful ways.

00:38:07.120 He would have agreed.

00:38:08.580 However,

00:38:09.740 he would definitely

00:38:10.840 be saying to us

00:38:11.960 this

00:38:13.060 root

00:38:15.140 of

00:38:15.840 courage,

00:38:18.160 this

00:38:18.360 root of courage

00:38:20.120 is also

00:38:20.700 an absolutely

00:38:21.460 crucial part

00:38:22.600 of human

00:38:23.320 make-up,

00:38:24.260 which,

00:38:25.200 yes,

00:38:25.460 has a vital role

00:38:26.540 to play in courage,

00:38:27.580 but in other things

00:38:28.520 too,

00:38:28.920 it is a vital part

00:38:30.400 of what makes us

00:38:31.380 who we are

00:38:32.040 as human beings

00:38:33.560 and we need

00:38:35.240 to attend

00:38:36.240 to people's

00:38:37.180 deep need

00:38:38.420 for respect

00:38:39.440 and self-respect

00:38:40.540 as well

00:38:41.540 as our

00:38:42.440 yearning

00:38:43.880 for

00:38:44.500 truth

00:38:46.100 and

00:38:47.180 understanding

00:38:49.100 and as well

00:38:49.920 as our

00:38:50.500 desire to satisfy

00:38:51.960 certain

00:38:52.720 physical

00:38:53.820 and material

00:38:54.580 appetites.

00:38:55.440 So all of

00:38:56.540 this

00:38:56.980 Plato

00:38:57.860 is

00:38:58.580 interrogating

00:38:59.720 so it

00:39:00.140 starts

00:39:01.000 with

00:39:01.640 a question

00:39:04.180 about

00:39:04.880 the nature

00:39:06.200 of

00:39:06.900 Andrea

00:39:07.820 and manliness

00:39:09.140 and courage

00:39:09.840 and that's

00:39:10.340 a very important

00:39:11.380 conversation

00:39:12.060 in its own

00:39:12.760 right

00:39:13.140 but that

00:39:14.060 conversation

00:39:14.780 branches out

00:39:15.760 into even

00:39:16.420 broader

00:39:17.880 areas

00:39:18.680 to do

00:39:19.180 with

00:39:19.360 really

00:39:20.140 what is it

00:39:21.180 that makes

00:39:22.020 us human

00:39:23.480 fully human

00:39:24.440 what drives

00:39:25.660 us

00:39:26.160 and

00:39:27.740 Plato

00:39:28.800 is

00:39:29.180 unusual

00:39:30.640 amongst

00:39:31.160 philosophers

00:39:31.720 in putting

00:39:33.140 this need

00:39:34.920 for honour

00:39:35.460 and respect

00:39:36.300 so centrally

00:39:38.220 into the human

00:39:39.120 makeup

00:39:39.680 there

00:39:40.740 haven't

00:39:41.240 been

00:39:41.380 many

00:39:41.740 philosophers

00:39:42.240 who've

00:39:42.600 done

00:39:42.780 that

00:39:42.980 Bishop

00:39:43.300 Butler

00:39:43.780 much

00:39:45.080 later

00:39:45.420 on

00:39:45.660 in

00:39:45.780 the

00:39:45.900 18th

00:39:46.420 century

00:39:46.760 but

00:39:47.000 really

00:39:47.340 it's

00:39:47.660 Freud

00:39:48.160 in the

00:39:49.220 19th

00:39:49.920 century

00:39:50.400 a psychologist

00:39:51.660 rather than

00:39:52.260 a philosopher

00:39:52.800 who

00:39:53.260 works

00:39:54.840 with Plato's

00:39:55.580 psychology

00:39:56.160 and is

00:39:56.640 fascinated

00:39:57.220 by it

00:39:57.880 and to

00:39:58.460 some

00:39:59.080 degree

00:39:59.500 takes

00:40:01.680 Plato's

00:40:02.340 notion

00:40:02.740 of

00:40:03.100 the

00:40:03.420 thumos

00:40:04.000 and

00:40:04.340 reworks

00:40:04.980 it as

00:40:05.400 the

00:40:05.740 superego

00:40:06.680 so

00:40:08.420 how did

00:40:08.980 Plato's

00:40:09.860 interrogation

00:40:10.720 of

00:40:11.100 Andrea

00:40:11.620 how does

00:40:12.360 that

00:40:12.540 influence

00:40:13.260 modern

00:40:13.940 western

00:40:14.520 culture

00:40:15.000 or

00:40:15.280 modern

00:40:15.660 political

00:40:16.180 western

00:40:17.020 culture

00:40:17.440 it

00:40:20.320 well

00:40:20.460 it

00:40:20.600 started

00:40:21.060 influencing

00:40:21.860 debates

00:40:24.580 very

00:40:25.100 very

00:40:25.360 early

00:40:25.660 on

00:40:25.960 so

00:40:26.300 including

00:40:27.200 in the

00:40:27.540 ancient

00:40:27.840 world

00:40:28.280 we get

00:40:28.920 debates

00:40:30.200 about

00:40:32.380 whether

00:40:32.900 this

00:40:34.600 new

00:40:34.940 person

00:40:35.400 called

00:40:35.660 Jesus

00:40:36.140 could be

00:40:36.920 regarded

00:40:37.660 as a

00:40:38.460 hero

00:40:39.160 or not

00:40:40.040 and those

00:40:40.400 kinds

00:40:40.740 of

00:40:40.920 debates

00:40:41.380 I would

00:40:41.900 argue

00:40:42.340 are

00:40:43.200 influenced

00:40:44.160 by

00:40:44.780 Plato's

00:40:46.440 questioning

00:40:47.280 of the

00:40:47.660 whole

00:40:47.920 notion

00:40:48.340 of what

00:40:48.660 it is

00:40:48.960 to be

00:40:49.220 a

00:40:49.380 hero

00:40:49.660 what

00:40:49.960 is it

00:40:50.280 to be

00:40:50.660 a role

00:40:51.520 model

00:40:51.840 what

00:40:52.100 is

00:40:52.280 courage

00:40:52.880 and

00:40:54.580 then

00:40:55.040 we

00:40:55.620 get

00:40:56.580 this

00:40:57.020 sort

00:40:57.240 of

00:40:57.400 resurgence

00:40:58.440 of interest

00:40:59.300 in

00:40:59.740 the

00:41:00.300 19th

00:41:01.500 century

00:41:01.940 I've

00:41:03.000 mentioned

00:41:03.380 Freud

00:41:03.900 and the

00:41:04.460 way

00:41:04.780 he takes

00:41:05.480 Plato's

00:41:05.960 notion

00:41:06.280 of the

00:41:06.600 thumos

00:41:07.060 and

00:41:07.280 reworks

00:41:08.040 it

00:41:08.320 with

00:41:08.700 some

00:41:09.060 significant

00:41:09.540 alterations

00:41:10.400 as the

00:41:11.200 superego

00:41:11.820 and his

00:41:12.300 tripartite

00:41:13.160 ego

00:41:13.580 superego

00:41:14.840 and id

00:41:15.260 we get

00:41:16.280 Nietzsche

00:41:16.960 of course

00:41:17.720 now

00:41:18.020 Nietzsche

00:41:18.560 is a

00:41:18.860 really

00:41:19.160 interesting

00:41:19.900 person

00:41:20.420 in this

00:41:20.980 narrative

00:41:22.860 because

00:41:23.480 Nietzsche

00:41:23.860 kind of

00:41:24.280 says

00:41:24.760 what he

00:41:25.120 ostensibly

00:41:25.680 says

00:41:26.080 is that

00:41:26.420 he

00:41:26.620 despises

00:41:27.380 Socrates

00:41:27.940 and

00:41:28.320 Plato

00:41:28.660 he

00:41:29.060 says

00:41:29.920 their

00:41:30.120 life

00:41:30.480 deniers

00:41:31.180 unlike

00:41:31.820 Homer

00:41:32.240 who's

00:41:32.580 a

00:41:32.740 life

00:41:33.060 affirmer

00:41:33.720 and

00:41:34.000 for

00:41:34.480 Nietzsche

00:41:34.720 it's

00:41:35.000 all

00:41:35.220 about

00:41:35.520 life

00:41:35.900 affirmation

00:41:36.700 but

00:41:37.280 actually

00:41:37.880 Nietzsche

00:41:38.360 is always

00:41:39.640 intrigued

00:41:40.760 by the

00:41:43.460 character

00:41:43.900 of

00:41:44.360 Socrates

00:41:44.820 in

00:41:45.300 particular

00:41:45.940 and

00:41:46.920 Nietzsche

00:41:47.260 is

00:41:47.620 fascinated

00:41:48.560 by

00:41:49.060 Plato's

00:41:49.980 idea

00:41:50.520 that

00:41:50.920 the

00:41:51.220 philosopher

00:41:51.780 the

00:41:52.140 thinker

00:41:52.940 can

00:41:55.060 show

00:41:55.380 courage

00:41:56.000 can

00:41:56.780 be

00:41:57.240 a

00:41:57.580 hero

00:41:57.940 and

00:41:59.000 Nietzsche

00:41:59.440 certainly

00:41:59.860 develops

00:42:00.380 a

00:42:00.660 notion

00:42:01.000 of

00:42:01.220 a

00:42:01.380 philosopher

00:42:01.860 hero

00:42:02.380 in

00:42:03.240 his

00:42:03.700 works

00:42:04.420 and

00:42:04.800 I

00:42:05.040 suspect

00:42:05.540 saw

00:42:06.460 himself

00:42:06.880 in

00:42:07.340 that

00:42:07.520 light

00:42:07.800 to

00:42:08.000 some

00:42:08.200 extent

00:42:08.760 yes

00:42:09.440 I

00:42:09.740 would

00:42:10.060 say

00:42:10.340 that

00:42:10.500 we've

00:42:10.940 certainly

00:42:11.680 remained

00:42:13.820 very

00:42:14.260 influenced

00:42:14.860 by

00:42:15.180 Plato's

00:42:16.100 extension

00:42:16.880 of

00:42:17.400 the

00:42:17.700 sphere

00:42:18.500 of

00:42:19.340 courage

00:42:20.000 into

00:42:20.360 areas

00:42:20.960 other

00:42:21.200 than

00:42:21.420 the

00:42:21.600 battlefield

00:42:22.040 we've

00:42:23.640 at

00:42:24.620 least

00:42:25.000 theoretically

00:42:27.020 remained

00:42:28.100 very

00:42:28.820 much

00:42:30.820 persuaded

00:42:31.460 by his

00:42:32.040 notion

00:42:32.500 that

00:42:33.280 the

00:42:34.820 links

00:42:35.280 between

00:42:35.700 courage

00:42:36.420 and

00:42:36.920 its

00:42:37.220 root

00:42:37.480 meaning

00:42:37.760 of

00:42:37.940 manliness

00:42:38.640 need

00:42:39.080 to be

00:42:39.380 disentangled

00:42:40.320 and that

00:42:40.740 women 1.00

00:42:41.000 can be

00:42:41.900 as

00:42:42.380 courageous

00:42:42.840 as

00:42:43.220 men

00:42:43.580 however

00:42:44.660 I

00:42:45.100 would

00:42:45.320 add

00:42:45.500 that

00:42:45.640 we've

00:42:45.840 never

00:42:46.020 quite

00:42:46.920 got

00:42:48.180 over

00:42:48.620 the

00:42:49.180 original

00:42:50.520 initial

00:42:51.140 sort

00:42:51.680 of

00:42:51.820 links

00:42:52.260 between

00:42:53.260 courage

00:42:54.280 and

00:42:54.540 manliness

00:42:55.080 that we

00:42:55.540 saw

00:42:56.000 in

00:42:56.360 Homer

00:42:56.860 and if

00:42:59.680 you think

00:43:00.100 about it

00:43:00.760 even after

00:43:02.100 the Greeks

00:43:02.620 we have

00:43:03.020 the Romans

00:43:03.780 their word

00:43:04.920 for man

00:43:06.660 is

00:43:07.180 vir

00:43:07.720 and our

00:43:09.160 word

00:43:09.420 virtue

00:43:10.200 comes from

00:43:12.180 that word

00:43:13.200 and our

00:43:14.700 adjective

00:43:15.080 virile

00:43:15.840 comes from

00:43:16.540 that word

00:43:17.040 so we're

00:43:17.700 still

00:43:18.220 maybe we

00:43:18.860 don't always

00:43:19.320 realise it

00:43:20.040 we're still

00:43:20.460 influenced

00:43:21.060 I think

00:43:21.800 by the

00:43:22.760 very deep

00:43:23.860 European

00:43:25.720 links

00:43:27.080 between

00:43:27.460 certain

00:43:28.080 kinds

00:43:28.500 of

00:43:28.700 courageous

00:43:29.080 virtue

00:43:29.600 and

00:43:29.920 manliness

00:43:30.960 in our

00:43:31.560 thought

00:43:32.020 not always

00:43:33.620 to

00:43:34.180 our benefit

00:43:36.120 I would

00:43:36.600 say

00:43:37.040 but on

00:43:38.220 the whole

00:43:38.660 Plato

00:43:39.280 has won

00:43:41.300 the debate

00:43:41.860 to some

00:43:42.660 extent

00:43:43.460 however I

00:43:44.540 would say

00:43:45.380 that there

00:43:45.940 is a real

00:43:47.520 danger

00:43:48.480 and it's a

00:43:48.960 danger that

00:43:49.480 Plato is

00:43:50.140 very aware

00:43:51.400 of in

00:43:52.500 his dialogues

00:43:53.260 and I

00:43:53.680 think we're

00:43:54.060 seeing a

00:43:54.660 resurgence

00:43:55.140 of it

00:43:55.560 now

00:43:56.060 so in

00:43:57.260 his critique

00:43:57.980 of different

00:43:58.620 notions of

00:43:59.340 courage and

00:43:59.960 manliness

00:44:00.620 Plato doesn't

00:44:01.940 just interrogate

00:44:03.780 the heroes

00:44:05.080 in Homer

00:44:05.640 he also

00:44:06.860 interrogates

00:44:07.940 popular ideals

00:44:10.060 of manliness

00:44:11.240 in his own

00:44:12.460 day in the

00:44:13.440 fourth century

00:44:14.160 BC when he

00:44:15.100 was writing

00:44:15.760 and there

00:44:17.200 are two

00:44:17.600 characters who

00:44:18.540 appear in his

00:44:19.740 dialogues

00:44:20.440 in particular

00:44:21.700 who I

00:44:22.860 think

00:44:23.180 are unfortunately

00:44:24.400 having a

00:44:25.100 resurgence

00:44:25.660 in popularity

00:44:26.660 now not

00:44:27.580 that people

00:44:28.120 may be aware

00:44:28.940 of the

00:44:29.240 connection

00:44:29.640 but what

00:44:30.880 Plato is

00:44:31.300 talking about

00:44:31.880 is having

00:44:32.260 a resurgence

00:44:32.900 one is the

00:44:34.340 character of

00:44:34.900 Calicles in

00:44:36.040 a dialogue

00:44:36.720 Plato wrote

00:44:37.300 called the

00:44:37.680 Gorgias

00:44:38.300 and Calicles

00:44:39.540 gives them

00:44:40.500 I would say

00:44:41.220 the most

00:44:41.920 powerful

00:44:42.620 eloquent

00:44:43.560 and disturbing

00:44:45.400 speech in

00:44:47.020 praise of the

00:44:48.220 theory that

00:44:48.800 might is

00:44:49.520 right

00:44:50.120 that possibly

00:44:51.520 we have in

00:44:52.140 the whole of

00:44:52.660 western literature

00:44:53.980 that power

00:44:57.180 and strength

00:44:57.900 are magnificent

00:44:58.940 that those

00:45:00.740 who are

00:45:01.520 in his words

00:45:02.460 more manly

00:45:03.540 and he uses

00:45:04.180 that phrase

00:45:05.060 many many

00:45:05.920 times

00:45:06.660 that those

00:45:07.800 who are more

00:45:08.240 manly and

00:45:09.140 more resourceful

00:45:10.300 and stronger

00:45:11.060 than others

00:45:11.720 it is right

00:45:12.980 and proper

00:45:14.240 that they should

00:45:15.260 have more

00:45:15.760 material goods

00:45:16.660 and more power

00:45:18.000 thinks

00:45:18.960 Calicles

00:45:19.660 he thinks

00:45:21.920 there are

00:45:22.200 naturally

00:45:23.000 lion-like

00:45:24.020 men

00:45:24.480 who should

00:45:25.280 by rights

00:45:26.540 rule

00:45:27.200 he also

00:45:28.640 disturbingly

00:45:29.880 sees

00:45:30.580 democracy

00:45:31.440 as

00:45:32.420 a hindrance

00:45:33.940 to these

00:45:34.660 lion-like

00:45:35.340 men

00:45:35.700 taking their

00:45:36.540 rightful

00:45:37.160 position

00:45:37.600 in the

00:45:37.940 world

00:45:38.300 he thinks

00:45:38.960 democracy

00:45:39.520 is a 0.98

00:45:39.860 terrible

00:45:40.160 idea

00:45:40.660 which

00:45:41.400 thwarts

00:45:41.980 the ambitions

00:45:42.940 of the

00:45:43.420 naturally

00:45:43.900 strong

00:45:44.880 and he

00:45:45.220 really

00:45:45.700 doesn't

00:45:46.000 want

00:45:46.180 much

00:45:46.460 truck

00:45:46.820 with it

00:45:47.260 and his

00:45:49.200 ideal

00:45:50.040 of the

00:45:50.580 strong

00:45:51.300 resourceful

00:45:52.700 ruthless

00:45:53.800 man of

00:45:54.500 affairs

00:45:54.980 was very

00:45:55.520 admired

00:45:56.340 in

00:45:56.600 Plato's

00:45:57.160 day

00:45:57.500 another

00:45:59.180 proponent

00:45:59.820 of a

00:46:00.520 similar

00:46:01.000 kind

00:46:01.360 of ideal

00:46:01.900 is put

00:46:02.940 forward

00:46:03.320 by the

00:46:03.860 character

00:46:04.260 of

00:46:04.500 Thrasymachus 1.00

00:46:05.000 in

00:46:05.880 Plato's

00:46:06.520 Republic

00:46:06.960 and again

00:46:08.540 Thrasymachus 1.00

00:46:09.640 also

00:46:10.080 thinks

00:46:11.020 might

00:46:11.800 is right

00:46:12.340 he's got

00:46:12.920 a slightly

00:46:13.320 different

00:46:13.760 ideal

00:46:14.260 from

00:46:14.560 Calicles

00:46:15.040 in that

00:46:15.640 for

00:46:16.220 Thrasymachus 1.00

00:46:16.800 the definition

00:46:18.280 of strength

00:46:19.100 is simply

00:46:19.860 whoever does

00:46:20.620 possess

00:46:21.160 political

00:46:21.720 power

00:46:22.180 if you

00:46:22.920 possess

00:46:23.560 political

00:46:24.040 power

00:46:24.560 that shows

00:46:25.880 you are

00:46:26.240 strong

00:46:26.600 whether

00:46:27.840 you're

00:46:28.140 a

00:46:28.280 democrat

00:46:28.620 an

00:46:28.940 oligarch

00:46:29.440 an

00:46:29.660 aristocrat

00:46:30.320 a monarch 0.68

00:46:30.740 a tyrant

00:46:31.380 it is

00:46:32.140 simply

00:46:32.460 the possession

00:46:32.980 of power

00:46:33.540 that shows

00:46:34.660 that you're

00:46:35.020 one of the

00:46:35.460 strong

00:46:35.880 but again

00:46:37.560 like

00:46:37.920 Calicles

00:46:38.380 Thrasymachus 1.00

00:46:39.300 has this

00:46:40.260 very deep

00:46:41.040 admiration

00:46:41.620 for the

00:46:42.140 ruthless

00:46:42.640 successful 0.96

00:46:43.720 man

00:46:44.760 who is

00:46:45.500 able to

00:46:46.160 do

00:46:46.560 whatever

00:46:47.120 he wants

00:46:47.820 by whatever

00:46:48.680 means

00:46:49.640 he wants

00:46:50.320 and get

00:46:51.200 away with

00:46:51.980 it

00:46:52.260 now

00:46:53.840 Plato

00:46:55.220 takes on

00:46:56.400 both these

00:46:57.060 characters

00:46:57.740 in the

00:46:59.120 Gorgias

00:46:59.680 and the

00:47:00.140 Republic

00:47:00.500 respectively

00:47:01.300 he thinks

00:47:02.220 they're his

00:47:02.800 main

00:47:03.500 moral

00:47:04.980 opposition

00:47:05.660 as we've

00:47:08.460 seen

00:47:08.760 with the

00:47:09.100 Homeric

00:47:09.740 heroes

00:47:10.320 he thinks

00:47:11.020 there are

00:47:11.820 strengths

00:47:12.300 and weaknesses

00:47:13.160 and he thinks

00:47:13.860 there are some

00:47:14.440 good things

00:47:15.060 about Achilles

00:47:15.780 and Odysseus

00:47:16.620 that he can

00:47:17.280 remodel

00:47:17.980 and incorporate

00:47:19.220 into his

00:47:19.960 new ideal

00:47:20.760 of Socrates

00:47:22.580 but with

00:47:24.420 the

00:47:24.740 ideals of

00:47:26.740 Calicles

00:47:27.180 and Thrasymachus

00:47:28.040 he thinks

00:47:28.760 it's much

00:47:29.520 more dangerous

00:47:30.200 because he

00:47:30.620 thinks that

00:47:31.260 their heroes

00:47:33.100 really are

00:47:34.260 amoral

00:47:35.440 and are

00:47:36.700 utterly out

00:47:37.640 for themselves

00:47:38.400 utterly ruthless

00:47:39.880 utterly

00:47:40.600 unscrupulous

00:47:41.680 and are also

00:47:44.420 completely happy

00:47:45.540 to lie

00:47:46.580 and deceive

00:47:47.260 others

00:47:48.040 and

00:47:48.640 manipulate

00:47:50.800 people

00:47:51.520 through

00:47:52.200 rhetoric

00:47:53.300 and

00:47:54.120 I think

00:47:55.520 if Plato

00:47:56.000 were alive

00:47:56.680 now

00:47:57.080 he would

00:47:57.420 look around

00:47:57.920 the world

00:47:58.520 and he

00:47:59.640 would say

00:48:00.100 watch out

00:48:01.260 world

00:48:01.960 because

00:48:02.660 the ideals

00:48:04.140 of Thrasymachus 0.97

00:48:04.880 and Calicles

00:48:05.720 are on the

00:48:07.080 rise again

00:48:08.080 and it is

00:48:09.160 going to be

00:48:09.620 very bad news

00:48:10.660 for society

00:48:11.380 we need to

00:48:12.380 be very

00:48:12.940 very alert

00:48:14.440 we need

00:48:15.440 philosophy

00:48:16.380 we need to

00:48:17.080 think

00:48:17.580 we need

00:48:18.680 to use

00:48:19.400 our human

00:48:19.960 power of

00:48:20.620 reason

00:48:20.980 and we

00:48:21.460 need to

00:48:21.880 harness

00:48:22.440 our

00:48:23.660 spirited

00:48:25.000 energy

00:48:25.480 and our

00:48:25.940 metal

00:48:26.360 for

00:48:27.500 the

00:48:28.520 greater

00:48:29.020 reflective

00:48:30.320 good

00:48:30.900 I'm curious

00:48:32.740 why do you

00:48:33.360 what would

00:48:33.880 Plato say

00:48:34.460 why

00:48:34.700 why these

00:48:36.740 ideals

00:48:37.480 of

00:48:38.200 that you

00:48:39.660 were just

00:48:39.920 talking about

00:48:40.300 why they're

00:48:40.700 back on the

00:48:41.260 rise

00:48:41.460 what makes

00:48:41.960 them appealing

00:48:42.500 to people

00:48:43.180 in his

00:48:46.200 own time

00:48:46.980 they had

00:48:47.620 found

00:48:49.040 favour

00:48:49.800 that

00:48:50.140 particularly

00:48:50.800 in the

00:48:51.260 last years

00:48:52.300 of the

00:48:52.900 5th century

00:48:53.680 BC

00:48:54.120 which were

00:48:54.900 times of

00:48:55.700 great

00:48:56.360 suffering

00:48:58.500 and stress

00:48:59.220 for Athens

00:48:59.900 there was a

00:49:00.560 very long

00:49:01.400 protracted

00:49:02.340 war with

00:49:02.940 Sparta

00:49:03.580 there was

00:49:05.480 a disastrous

00:49:06.720 expedition

00:49:07.540 against

00:49:08.200 Sicily

00:49:08.840 in which

00:49:09.640 the Athenians

00:49:10.500 lost

00:49:11.080 heavily

00:49:11.680 in terms

00:49:12.400 of both

00:49:12.940 men

00:49:13.440 and

00:49:14.040 money

00:49:15.200 and

00:49:15.820 honour

00:49:16.260 and

00:49:16.560 respect

00:49:17.160 there was

00:49:19.020 a terrible

00:49:19.540 plague

00:49:20.280 in Athens

00:49:20.900 there were

00:49:21.380 food

00:49:21.840 shortages

00:49:22.460 so people

00:49:23.180 were under

00:49:23.720 very very

00:49:24.980 severe

00:49:25.480 stresses

00:49:26.100 and to

00:49:27.500 in Plato's

00:49:28.980 eyes

00:49:29.420 to a large

00:49:30.060 extent

00:49:30.640 moral society

00:49:32.020 cracked

00:49:32.920 under

00:49:33.640 the strain

00:49:34.800 and did

00:49:35.600 not cope

00:49:36.200 well

00:49:36.620 and people

00:49:37.600 were yearning

00:49:38.620 for

00:49:39.800 a strong

00:49:40.700 man

00:49:41.080 to come

00:49:41.580 along

00:49:42.000 and sort

00:49:42.940 of a

00:49:43.240 kind

00:49:43.380 of a

00:49:43.640 fantasy

00:49:44.040 of the

00:49:44.400 strong

00:49:44.680 man

00:49:44.920 to come

00:49:45.280 along

00:49:45.560 and sort

00:49:46.420 out their

00:49:46.840 problems

00:49:47.280 and make

00:49:48.040 everything

00:49:48.620 all right

00:49:49.840 again

00:49:50.100 a kind

00:49:50.480 of magical

00:49:51.080 thinking

00:49:51.700 if you

00:49:52.100 like

00:49:52.520 but

00:49:54.260 Plato's

00:49:55.020 view

00:49:55.380 is that

00:49:56.700 getting

00:49:59.160 getting a

00:49:59.480 lot of

00:49:59.760 bad

00:50:00.020 people

00:50:00.400 together

00:50:00.880 is not

00:50:01.580 going to

00:50:02.060 bring

00:50:02.340 about

00:50:02.620 good

00:50:03.220 outcomes

00:50:04.000 and that

00:50:05.240 the best

00:50:05.760 thing to

00:50:06.160 do to

00:50:06.720 cope

00:50:07.080 with

00:50:07.540 problems

00:50:09.300 in human

00:50:09.900 existence

00:50:10.440 whether

00:50:11.000 they're

00:50:11.560 to do

00:50:12.420 with the

00:50:12.760 natural

00:50:13.120 environment

00:50:13.760 or the

00:50:14.580 economy

00:50:15.020 or whatever

00:50:15.660 is to

00:50:17.380 use

00:50:18.680 our

00:50:19.260 reason

00:50:20.020 to think

00:50:20.820 through

00:50:21.320 our

00:50:21.640 problems

00:50:22.120 to engage

00:50:23.060 in dialogue

00:50:24.020 and calm

00:50:25.940 courteous

00:50:27.500 rational

00:50:28.160 debate

00:50:28.880 to

00:50:29.920 recognize

00:50:30.640 the dark

00:50:31.480 side as

00:50:32.080 well as

00:50:32.400 the good

00:50:32.780 side of

00:50:33.380 human

00:50:33.720 nature

00:50:34.200 and to

00:50:35.080 do what

00:50:35.460 we can

00:50:36.080 to harness

00:50:36.700 the good

00:50:37.300 and to

00:50:38.780 dial down

00:50:40.360 if you

00:50:40.660 like

00:50:41.000 the bad

00:50:41.760 side

00:50:42.280 in humans

00:50:43.780 and for

00:50:45.720 him it

00:50:46.360 would be

00:50:46.700 dialogue

00:50:47.200 it would

00:50:47.700 be formal

00:50:48.280 and informal

00:50:49.100 education

00:50:49.920 it would

00:50:51.080 be surrounding

00:50:51.780 ourselves

00:50:52.380 with

00:50:52.800 a healthy

00:50:54.040 vibrant

00:50:54.980 culture

00:50:55.940 and it

00:50:57.060 would be

00:50:57.620 an ability

00:50:58.780 to see

00:51:00.380 through

00:51:01.080 these

00:51:02.460 allegedly

00:51:03.700 you know

00:51:04.160 these self

00:51:04.860 proclaimed

00:51:05.460 strong

00:51:06.060 leaders

00:51:06.520 and see

00:51:07.680 them for

00:51:08.060 what they

00:51:08.440 are

00:51:08.780 and not

00:51:09.940 be fooled

00:51:11.320 by the

00:51:11.760 very seductive

00:51:12.740 rhetoric

00:51:13.840 because it's

00:51:15.280 not they

00:51:16.380 are not going

00:51:16.840 to solve

00:51:17.420 our problems

00:51:18.180 they're in

00:51:18.640 it for

00:51:19.060 themselves

00:51:19.640 in Plato's

00:51:20.540 view

00:51:20.800 we have

00:51:22.040 to solve

00:51:22.500 our problems

00:51:23.260 ourselves

00:51:24.760 and not

00:51:25.320 look to

00:51:26.120 mythical

00:51:27.000 strong men

00:51:27.680 to sort

00:51:28.120 them out

00:51:28.560 we have

00:51:29.420 to think

00:51:29.940 we have

00:51:31.500 to talk

00:51:32.040 and we

00:51:34.020 have to

00:51:34.660 invest in

00:51:35.360 education

00:51:35.940 well Angie

00:51:36.980 this has been

00:51:37.460 a great

00:51:37.940 conversation

00:51:38.620 where can

00:51:39.100 people learn

00:51:39.600 more about

00:51:40.060 your work

00:51:40.620 so I

00:51:42.660 have a

00:51:44.200 pretty full

00:51:45.120 website

00:51:45.820 Angie

00:51:47.200 Hobbs

00:51:47.700 dot com

00:51:48.540 A-N-G-I-E 1.00

00:51:49.920 H-O-B-B-S 1.00

00:51:52.020 dot com

00:51:52.740 and that

00:51:54.480 has a lot

00:51:55.380 of links

00:51:55.880 to TV

00:51:57.220 and radio

00:51:57.860 programs

00:51:58.440 that I've

00:51:58.860 made over

00:51:59.360 the years

00:51:59.860 and to a

00:52:00.240 lot of

00:52:00.520 my written

00:52:01.160 material

00:52:01.800 I also

00:52:04.540 tweet a lot

00:52:06.040 about what

00:52:06.500 I'm doing

00:52:07.080 and on

00:52:08.400 at Dr

00:52:09.340 Angie

00:52:09.740 Hobbs

00:52:10.340 so I

00:52:12.040 have a

00:52:12.300 job in

00:52:12.680 the public

00:52:13.080 understanding

00:52:13.780 of philosophy

00:52:14.460 here in

00:52:15.100 the UK

00:52:15.500 so a

00:52:17.300 very great

00:52:17.780 deal of

00:52:18.160 my work

00:52:18.680 is in

00:52:19.260 the public

00:52:19.800 sphere

00:52:20.620 and people

00:52:22.480 can always

00:52:23.000 contact me

00:52:23.700 by Twitter

00:52:24.960 by email

00:52:25.820 and

00:52:27.300 I'm

00:52:29.340 happy to

00:52:30.380 continue the

00:52:31.500 dialogue and

00:52:32.140 the conversation

00:52:32.860 fantastic

00:52:34.060 Angie Hobbs

00:52:34.640 thank you so

00:52:34.960 much for your

00:52:35.260 time it's

00:52:35.640 been a

00:52:35.920 pleasure

00:52:36.240 it's been

00:52:36.940 a huge

00:52:37.320 pleasure

00:52:37.660 thank you

00:52:38.680 so much

00:52:39.180 I've really

00:52:39.680 enjoyed it

00:52:40.360 my guest

00:52:40.920 today was

00:52:41.120 Angie Hobbs

00:52:41.600 she's a

00:52:41.920 professor of

00:52:42.420 philosophy

00:52:42.880 and the

00:52:43.340 author of

00:52:43.820 the book

00:52:44.200 Plato and

00:52:44.800 the Hero

00:52:45.200 it's available

00:52:45.980 on Amazon.com

00:52:47.040 also you can

00:52:47.860 find out more

00:52:48.260 about her

00:52:48.660 work at

00:52:49.520 AngieHobbs.com

00:52:51.160 and also check out

00:52:51.960 our show notes

00:52:52.560 at AOM.IS

00:52:53.680 slash Hobbs

00:52:54.380 where you can

00:52:54.720 find links to

00:52:55.260 resources where

00:52:55.880 you can delve

00:52:56.160 deeper into

00:52:56.660 this topic

00:52:57.200 well that

00:53:10.020 wraps up another

00:53:10.740 edition of the

00:53:11.420 Art of Manliness

00:53:12.140 podcast for

00:53:12.820 more manly

00:53:13.240 tips and

00:53:13.540 advice make

00:53:13.980 sure to check

00:53:14.340 out the

00:53:14.560 Art of

00:53:14.800 Manliness

00:53:15.080 website at

00:53:15.680 artofmanliness.com

00:53:16.780 our show is

00:53:17.640 edited by

00:53:18.100 Creative Audio

00:53:18.600 Lab here in

00:53:19.200 Tulsa, Oklahoma

00:53:19.880 if you have

00:53:20.240 any audio

00:53:20.700 editing needs

00:53:21.300 or audio

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00:53:22.420 check them

00:53:22.800 out at

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00:53:24.500 we appreciate

00:53:25.140 your continued

00:53:25.500 support of the

00:53:25.920 podcast reviews

00:53:26.780 really help us

00:53:27.320 out a lot

00:53:27.680 so drop us

00:53:28.160 one on iTunes

00:53:28.760 or wherever

00:53:29.500 else you

00:53:29.840 usually listen

00:53:30.180 to the

00:53:30.380 podcast

00:53:30.660 as always

00:53:31.260 thank you

00:53:31.620 for your

00:53:31.840 continued

00:53:32.000 support

00:53:32.320 and until

00:53:32.740 next time

00:53:33.200 this is

00:53:33.440 Brett McKay

00:53:34.000 telling you to

00:53:34.560 stay

00:53:35.000 manly

The Art of Manliness - December 06, 2016

#258： Honor, Courage, Thumos and Plato's Idea of Greek Manliness

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