The Art of Manliness - December 06, 2016


#258： Honor, Courage, Thumos and Plato's Idea of Greek Manliness


Episode Stats

Length

53 minutes

Words per Minute

128.96164

Word Count

6,912

Sentence Count

230

Misogynist Sentences

8

Hate Speech Sentences

17


Summary

In her book, Plato and the Hero: Courage, Manliness, and the Impersonal Good, Professor Angela Hobbes goes into detail clarifying Greek concepts related to manliness, including the wild Homeric virtues of courage, thaumos, spiritedness, and honor. And today on the show, Professor Hobbes and I discuss these ancient notions of masculinity in detail, as well as why the philosopher Plato felt uneasy about them.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. So I'm a
00:00:18.880 classics guy. It's what I studied in college. So the ancient Greeks and Romans informed a
00:00:22.640 lot of my ideas about what manliness means, particularly in regards to the way they equated
00:00:27.140 manliness with living a life of virtue. And one of the best books that I've come across
00:00:31.020 on how the Greeks saw manliness as intertwined with virtue is by Professor Philosophy Angela
00:00:35.560 Hobbes. In her book, Plato and the Hero, Courage, Manliness, and the Impersonal Good, Hobbes goes
00:00:40.720 into detail, clarifying Greek concepts related to manliness, including the wild Homeric virtues
00:00:45.700 of Andrea, that's courage, thumos, spiritedness, and timei, that's honor. And today on the show,
00:00:51.400 Professor Hobbes and I discuss these ancient notions of masculinity in detail, as well as
00:00:55.340 why the philosopher Plato felt uneasy about them. We then talk about how a lot of what
00:00:59.620 Plato's philosophy was trying to accomplish was tempering these virtues so they can be
00:01:03.920 harnessed for the greater good of society and how that's influenced our notions of masculinity
00:01:07.680 today. A really fascinating show. After the show's over, check out the show notes at aom.is
00:01:12.720 slash Hobbes. That's Hobbes with two B's.
00:01:20.300 Professor Angie Hobbes, welcome to the show.
00:01:22.020 Thank you so much for inviting me. It's a great pleasure to be here.
00:01:26.200 So you're a philosopher, and the book of yours that I've read and I've really enjoyed
00:01:29.900 is called Plato and the Hero. And the reason why I liked it, because I'm a classics guy.
00:01:35.160 That's what I studied in college. And sort of the idea of masculinity that we're trying
00:01:39.920 to promote here on The Art of Manliness takes a lot of cues from the ancient Greeks, the ancient
00:01:43.820 Romans. And in the book, you argue that Plato was somewhat ambivalent about the Homeric
00:01:51.660 values that had guided ancient Greece and that all of his works, the Republic, all the dialogues
00:01:57.860 were, those were an attempt to temper or at least accommodate these sort of barbaric values
00:02:04.500 to something more rational and refined. So before we get into the specifics of how we,
00:02:10.040 how he did this, let's talk about these Homeric values. What were they and what do they look
00:02:16.000 like in action?
00:02:18.220 Yes. I'm not sure if barbaric is quite the right word, but certainly they comprised a set of values
00:02:27.620 which Plato thought needed to be interrogated. So the key quality that the Homeric male was striving
00:02:35.260 to achieve was, was, was Arata, excellence, and it combined intellectual, emotional, and physical
00:02:43.480 qualities. And for Homer, and for many of the writers after him, before Plato's time, your excellence
00:02:52.800 was very much geared to your social role. It depended on whether you were male or female, whether you were
00:03:01.820 a master or a slave, young or old, rich or poor, and so on. So gender, class, age are crucial to what
00:03:10.360 kind of qualities and behaviors you should be exhibiting. And a really lovely summing up of this Homeric
00:03:19.460 ethos, we actually find in an early Platonic dialogue called the Mino, where one of the characters whom
00:03:27.460 Socrates is interrogating, Mino himself, who's an aristocratic young man, and Socrates says to him,
00:03:34.200 what is Arata? And he, and Mino gives a Homeric response. And he says, oh, there's no difficulty
00:03:39.740 about saying what Arata is. If it's a man's Arata you're after, that's knowing how to run his affairs
00:03:47.320 capably and to stand up for himself and his family and sort of ward off his enemies and support his
00:03:57.400 friends. And if it's a woman's virtue you're after, that's in terms of running her house well and being
00:04:03.760 obedient to her husband. So very gender and class oriented. As we'll see later, Plato is going to
00:04:12.660 hugely interrogate that. But that's the basic idea in Homer. And if you're a man in Homer then it's
00:04:20.140 really crucial that you fulfill your manly duty of being excellent on a battlefield. What will that
00:04:28.180 involve? It'll involve physical strength, speed, skill at fighting, and of course the kinds of qualities
00:04:37.340 that make up what we would call courage. And some preeminent Homeric heroes who display these
00:04:45.500 qualities. Achilles would be one, Odysseus would be another. And again, we're going to find out how
00:04:52.080 Plato interrogates those role models and incorporates the best of him and discards what he regards as the
00:05:01.200 worst of them. So there is this very strong notion of what it is to be a, quote, real man. And preeminently
00:05:11.400 you're going to be good at fighting. You're going to be strong, you're going to be skilled, and you're
00:05:16.880 going to be brave. You've got the Homeric hero. He's being brave. Homer uses various words for that.
00:05:25.040 And absolutely key to whether you can be brave or not is whether you possess what Homer calls
00:05:34.000 thumos. This is a really interesting word, and it has both physical and spiritual connotations.
00:05:43.300 Initially it appears to have meant the breath. The breath viewed as a warm, moist vapour which
00:05:52.340 rises out of the boiling of the blood around your heart and lungs. But very quickly, this physical
00:06:01.000 breath and this physical boiling of the blood come to be seen as your life force, your metal, your
00:06:10.600 a certain spiritedness, which is absolutely requisite if you're going to be brave. So the Homeric hero,
00:06:21.400 the brave, able, strong Homeric hero, must have a very large quantity of this stuff called thumos, this
00:06:32.400 this breath, this life force, this raw drive or energy which is going to power his effectiveness on the
00:06:42.700 battlefield.
00:06:43.700 And I mean, how related to thumos is this concept of honour, or I think the Greek is time, time.
00:06:53.700 What role did time or time play in the ancient Greek conceptions of Andrea or manliness?
00:07:03.700 So again, in Homer, Tima is absolutely crucial to the hero's sense of himself. What he wants above
00:07:14.700 everything else is honour and glory. He wants to be respected and honoured by those around him, and that is
00:07:25.700 required for his own sense of self-respect. So it's very much about how you, what is your status in the
00:07:34.700 world? How do you feel you count in the world? What do you need to do to get honour? Well, the easiest
00:07:41.700 thing is to do whatever your society already honours. So it can appear that an honour-based ethos at first sight
00:07:51.700 looks as if it might be quite conservative. It might encourage the repetition of established patterns
00:07:58.700 of behaviour which have been proven to win honour from your peer group in the past, your society in the
00:08:06.700 past. And that is one of the things that Plato's going to get to grips with. So we have this society based on
00:08:18.700 on notions of courage, a particular conception of manliness, which is aimed at honour and excellent behaviour
00:08:28.700 preeminently shown on the battlefield.
00:08:31.700 So the thumos was sort of the driving force that propelled a man to seek out.
00:08:37.700 Exactly. Exactly. And sometimes Homer seems to use it to mean something very like boldness or courage itself.
00:08:45.700 Now, later than Homer, but before Plato, so sometime in the middle of the fifth century BC,
00:08:52.700 we get the arrival on the scene of this word Andrea, which literally means manliness.
00:09:00.700 It means the qualities and behaviours suitable, appropriate for a man to display.
00:09:08.700 And what is the most important quality for a man to display at this time?
00:09:16.700 Well, the qualities needed for him to perform his main social duty of defending his society and his family in times of war.
00:09:26.700 So your main manly qualities, again, going to be those which make you effective at fighting back to our physical strength,
00:09:35.700 our skill, our speed, how to use weapons and so on, the knowledge of how to use weapons.
00:09:41.700 But above all your courage. And as we've seen, having courage will require this thumos, this sort of spirited metal,
00:09:53.700 which is the engine force of your courage, which propels you forward.
00:09:58.700 And again, at some point in the fifth century, though Andrea literally means manliness, it came almost to be a shorthand for courage.
00:10:12.700 And it is the most usual word for courage at this time, which, of course, means that if you're trying to describe a courageous woman,
00:10:22.700 it's very difficult to do that without calling her manly.
00:10:28.700 And so we've got this very kind of complicated interweaving of ideas.
00:10:34.700 And a lot of the writers before Plato are aware of this and bring out these ambiguities in this word, Andrea,
00:10:45.700 particularly when they're talking about courageous women,
00:10:49.700 because they can't really do that without making some kind of comment, whether it's favorable.
00:10:55.700 Wow, look, a woman can be as courageous as a man.
00:10:58.700 We seem to get that in in Herodotus, a historian writing in the middle of the fifth century B.C.
00:11:06.700 But we also get critiques of women exhibiting Andrea before Plato.
00:11:14.700 A very famous example would be in the tragic poet Sophocles, writing in the fifth century B.C.
00:11:21.700 in his play Electra, where Electra is trying to avenge the slaughter of her father, Agamemnon,
00:11:31.700 who was slaughtered by her mother's lover, Aegisthus, in league with her mother, Clytemnestra.
00:11:37.700 And Electra is trying to persuade her sister, Chrysothomus, to help her slay Aegisthus to avenge their father, Agamemnon.
00:11:48.700 And Electra says, if we do this, everybody, you know, everybody's going to praise us for our Andrea.
00:11:56.700 And she presumably just means her courage.
00:12:00.700 But Chrysothomus picks up on the root meaning of the word and says, no, no, no.
00:12:05.700 It is not appropriate for women to display Andrea.
00:12:09.700 It's not appropriate for women to pick up arms.
00:12:13.700 And so there you get the playwright, Sophocles, very knowingly and in a very interesting way, exploring the ambiguities of this word Andrea.
00:12:26.700 The best word he's got available for courage, but of course, literally meaning manliness.
00:12:33.700 So all those sort of gendered expectations built in.
00:12:37.700 So that's what Plato has inherited.
00:12:42.700 A notion of virtue and moral excellence, which is very aligned to particular social roles, particularly as determined by gender and class.
00:12:54.700 And the idea that the preeminent male virtue is going to be courage to such an extent that the word for courage is literally this word Andrea, meaning manliness and all the consequent ambiguities for what happens when you want to talk about women being courageous.
00:13:14.700 Is it appropriate for women to be courageous?
00:13:19.700 That's a really complicated mix of ideas that Plato has inherited.
00:13:25.700 And before we get into how Plato explores these ambiguities with his work, particularly in the Republic, let's talk about courage more.
00:13:34.700 Because one of the things I love about Greek culture, ancient Greek cultures, that they have these words like thumos, that it's a very simple word, but it's a very, there's like this complex and very rich meaning.
00:13:46.700 And it's hard to pin down exactly what they're talking about.
00:13:50.700 And I think the same thing goes with courage.
00:13:53.700 As you just explained there, there's a lot of ambiguity with it.
00:13:58.700 I'm curious about the concept of courage, how the Greeks perceived courage.
00:14:04.700 It was an honor-based culture, and usually in honor-based cultures, outward displays are more important than internal motivations.
00:14:13.700 Was that the case with the Greeks?
00:14:16.700 Did internal motivations matter in determining whether one was courageous or had Andrea?
00:14:23.700 That's such an interesting question, and I don't think classical scholars would agree on an answer to that, because certainly at times it looks as if a display of courage in Homer, for instance, is all about the actions, as you say.
00:14:41.700 It's all about the behaviors.
00:14:44.700 And indeed, in the plural, to Andrea, that means your daring exploits on a battlefield.
00:14:53.700 However, the Greeks, way back as far as Homer, were very aware that those kinds of exploits, those kinds of actions, were much more likely to happen if they stemmed from the right kind of emotional drive.
00:15:14.700 So they, I think, my view is that they were very interested in the kinds of inner quality, the kinds of psychological quality that were required to bring about these tough actions which were going to, which either required the endurance of pain or death, or at the very least the risk of enduring pain or death.
00:15:43.700 I would say that they're always aware of the importance of a capacity for endurance, perseverance, this kind of raw spirited metal that we've talked about as being embodied in this concept of thumos.
00:15:57.660 So I thought it was interesting, too, in terms of courage and how the Greeks rated or judged the courage of someone.
00:16:07.180 You talk about this in your book, that this idea of techne or skill.
00:16:12.100 Now, we think of increasing your skill is awesome, like it makes you more powerful, more competent.
00:16:18.180 But the Greeks thought that if you had increased skill, it actually reduced your ability to claim Andrea in the battlefield.
00:16:27.280 Can you explain the sort of the intersection of skill and courage for the ancient Greeks?
00:16:31.920 OK, well, I think it varies very much on the writer because there's no question that some hero like Achilles is highly skilled and is also regarded as very courageous.
00:16:46.640 So I'm not sure if Homer sees there as being a tension between skill and courage.
00:16:52.400 However, you're absolutely right that there was a debate and it's particularly picked up in an early dialogue of Plato's called the Lakeys,
00:17:01.360 in which two generals, two old retired generals, are discussing what kind of education is best for a young man and what kind of training is most likely to result in manly, excellent, courageous behaviour on the part of the young man.
00:17:25.820 And they particularly ask about this notion of skill as a new technique, a new technique of fighting in armour required for the new kind of battle formation,
00:17:38.480 the new kind of hoplite battle formation, where instead of being in a chariot or on foot, dashing around a battlefield,
00:17:46.880 you stand in line and you hold your post and you protect the man on your left and your right.
00:17:55.820 And that's a new way of fighting, a non-Homeric way of fighting, which is requiring new kinds of skills.
00:18:02.640 And the skill of fighting in armour is preeminent.
00:18:07.280 And there is a really interesting debate about whether it's.
00:18:13.380 But if you fight and are very skilled and that reduces the risk, does that mean that you're less courageous?
00:18:20.760 So the question is, what's the relationship between courage and risk?
00:18:26.280 That's what's really at the heart of the question about the relationship between courage and skill.
00:18:32.180 Is it the case that the more risky the enterprise, the more courageous the action?
00:18:38.000 And certainly Plato raises the possibility that that no, there is no direct correlation between risk and courage,
00:18:47.340 because in certain circumstances, a very risky action might be just utterly hopeless and foolhardy and reckless and not likely to achieve anything positive at all.
00:19:01.740 Not even for, you know, the people you're trying to protect, in which case, taking the risk.
00:19:09.040 How can that be seen as courageous rather than just reckless stupidity?
00:19:15.220 So Plato wants to make a distinction between courage, which is always good in his mind, and boldness, which could be good or bad.
00:19:25.820 Now, on the other hand, if you have no risk whatsoever of suffering any kind of pain or harm,
00:19:39.540 then he would agree that action can't be courageous.
00:19:43.880 You've got to be enduring or risking enduring some kind of suffering for an action to count as courageous.
00:19:52.780 And if you're so skilled that it makes the situation completely safe, then that action can't count as courageous.
00:20:03.880 And Plato comes up, I think, with a really interesting solution.
00:20:08.840 I say a solution. It's an idea that's explored in the dialogue.
00:20:12.680 As ever, he never gives us a very clear answer about what he thinks himself,
00:20:17.960 because he wants us to think about these issues for ourselves.
00:20:22.780 And I think he thinks, yes, no risk at all can't be courageous.
00:20:29.320 But if you are skilled, that actually will increase your chances of performing a courageous action in two ways.
00:20:39.580 One, it will make you more likely to enter into the fray in the first place,
00:20:46.220 if you know there is a reasonable chance you could achieve something good.
00:20:49.960 You may not save your own life, but there's a reasonable chance that you can help protect your people.
00:20:56.820 And two, the fact that you're skilled, because it gives you some reasonable hope of achieving some of your aims in the fighting,
00:21:06.820 then that skill is what makes the difference between an act counting as courageous and an act counting as simply reckless folly,
00:21:18.440 which is not going to help you or your people or anybody in the world.
00:21:23.220 So what Plato does, I think, is say we can train for courage.
00:21:31.900 We can train to make to make it more likely that when the challenge comes, when the crisis calls, when our country calls for us,
00:21:43.380 it will be more likely that we'll take up that challenge.
00:21:47.700 I think the notion that a skill in itself doesn't make you courageous,
00:21:51.780 but a skill can make it more likely that you will act courageously when danger occurs,
00:21:58.320 that there is preparatory work you can do in order to be courageous.
00:22:03.780 I think that's a really interesting idea to explore.
00:22:07.600 That is interesting.
00:22:09.840 So, I mean, getting back to, so we've sort of laid out what manliness meant for the ancient Greeks,
00:22:16.720 so the Homeric inheritance.
00:22:19.100 It meant courage.
00:22:20.680 It meant seeking honor or glory.
00:22:23.980 And you had this, you were powered by this thumas, this spiritedness.
00:22:30.700 Why, but at the same time, as we've said earlier, Plato was a little ambivalent about this.
00:22:36.100 And I think you alluded to why, because it was, the concept of Andrea was,
00:22:41.400 it could be applied to women, but how can a woman be manly?
00:22:44.960 I'm sure that kind of confused ancient Greeks.
00:22:47.120 So was that part of the reason why Plato was sort of,
00:22:50.800 he felt like these masculine virtues needed to be interrogated more,
00:22:56.560 or that he was ambivalent about, that he needed to explore further?
00:23:00.020 He's certainly very interested in exploring the gender issues,
00:23:02.560 and I'll come back to that in a few moments.
00:23:05.200 His first issue is this notion of thumas, this raw drive, which is required for courage.
00:23:13.700 It's the engine room of courage, but left unguided by reason, left to its own devices.
00:23:21.140 It's very, very dangerous.
00:23:22.640 It can take people in good or bad directions.
00:23:25.080 It can give rise to enormous anger and rage and bloodthirst in us,
00:23:34.640 which might be useful if directed against the right enemies,
00:23:39.460 but of course can be hugely damaging if directed against your own side,
00:23:46.840 your own friends or your allies.
00:23:49.720 And in some cases, it might even eat you up.
00:23:53.860 It might be self-directed.
00:23:56.920 So Plato has this dilemma on his hands.
00:24:00.580 He's got this thumos, this raw drive, which he needs,
00:24:06.280 but he's got to somehow curb it, harness it,
00:24:12.160 utilise its forces for good.
00:24:14.480 And so that's his main aim in the early education section of the Republic,
00:24:22.460 in books two and three of the Republic,
00:24:24.900 when he's laying out an education system for the young auxiliaries
00:24:31.480 who are going to be the fighting force in his ideally just state.
00:24:36.240 And everything is geared to getting the correct balance in the education of thumos.
00:24:44.500 So it's toned up enough that it can inspire you to be courageous when needed.
00:24:51.380 So it mustn't be slack.
00:24:53.520 But at the same time, it's got to be something that is answerable to reason,
00:25:00.800 that can be guided by reason, and it can select and understand
00:25:06.620 who the true enemies are and who the true friends are,
00:25:10.580 so it doesn't attack the wrong people.
00:25:14.200 And Plato devises a really interesting mix of physical education,
00:25:19.300 but also what he calls musikare, a cultural education,
00:25:24.720 not just music, though music is included,
00:25:27.360 but in literature and the arts generally,
00:25:31.160 to tone down the rougher aspects.
00:25:35.840 And it's at this stage that we get him really interrogating
00:25:41.860 the epics of the Iliad and the Odyssey left by Homer
00:25:46.560 and asking questions about the role models in them
00:25:50.120 and whether censorship is needed
00:25:52.060 and whether these role models need reworking
00:25:55.260 for the kind of ideally just state that he's trying to build.
00:26:03.160 So he's saying,
00:26:05.520 how do we get the energy from thumos
00:26:09.500 without the untrammeled aggression and indiscriminate bloodthirstiness?
00:26:15.540 How do we get the right balance between courage and risk?
00:26:20.400 And he says that his definition of what he calls political Andrea,
00:26:27.240 political manliness, by which he means the kind of manliness
00:26:31.320 and courage appropriate within the polis,
00:26:35.300 within the city-state, within a civilized context.
00:26:39.040 And he says the aim is to dye, D-Y-E, the young trainee soldiers
00:26:47.840 in the correct notions of what is and is not to be feared.
00:26:58.320 As if you're kind of immersing them in like a sort of a fleece,
00:27:04.580 immersing a fleece in a vat of dye to color it.
00:27:07.960 He wants them absolutely impregnated with the correct beliefs
00:27:13.260 about what is and is not to be feared.
00:27:15.780 So they will never think twice.
00:27:18.200 They will just automatically do the right thing.
00:27:21.500 And the only thing that is to be feared
00:27:24.200 is moral shame, moral turpitude,
00:27:29.300 and a dishonorable sort of cowardly death.
00:27:32.840 The only thing that is shameful is moral dishonor.
00:27:38.760 And once you realize that physical death isn't to be feared,
00:27:43.680 that physical pain is not to be feared in itself,
00:27:48.580 the only thing that is to be feared is your moral wrongdoing,
00:27:52.500 then Plato thinks you've got the right basis
00:27:56.100 for exhibiting true courage,
00:28:00.020 courage that will be helpful to your community
00:28:02.320 rather than a wild, rash, boldness
00:28:06.440 that might sometimes help your community,
00:28:09.140 that might often harm it.
00:28:11.300 So it sounds like Plato,
00:28:13.180 it sounds like the Homeric values are very personal, right?
00:28:17.100 It's all about personal glory.
00:28:18.440 I'm doing this for myself.
00:28:19.880 And it sounds like Plato was trying to take that same energy,
00:28:23.100 that same drive and direct it to the greater good.
00:28:25.440 Would that be a correct statement?
00:28:28.180 I think that's, yes, I think that's a very astute comment.
00:28:31.480 It is very clear if you read the Iliad
00:28:34.420 that Achilles is very driven by both personal glory,
00:28:40.880 his quest for glory,
00:28:42.680 and also for his love for particular friends
00:28:48.100 such as his beloved Patroclus,
00:28:51.860 who later is portrayed as his lover,
00:28:55.020 though not in Homer himself.
00:28:57.980 In Homer, they're very close friends,
00:29:00.560 they're not lovers.
00:29:02.240 But Achilles' motivations, as you say,
00:29:04.700 are always personal.
00:29:07.380 And you do get,
00:29:09.480 there are certainly notions, however,
00:29:11.520 I mean, in Homer,
00:29:12.740 that this is one of the things
00:29:14.580 that Achilles should be critiqued for,
00:29:16.640 that he's not a team player.
00:29:19.240 And when he kind of abandons the battlefield
00:29:23.060 and goes off and sulks in his tent
00:29:25.720 because he feels his leader, Agamemnon,
00:29:28.760 has not given him sufficient honour,
00:29:31.580 Agamemnon has taken away Achilles' mistress.
00:29:34.600 And Achilles takes this as a personal slight.
00:29:37.680 He's not being rewarded properly for his courage.
00:29:40.620 And he goes off and sulks
00:29:42.200 and refuses to fight for a bit.
00:29:43.720 And you do get sort of an embassy
00:29:47.120 of the other Greek fighters
00:29:48.820 go to his tent to try to persuade him
00:29:51.180 to rejoin the team.
00:29:53.520 So there, you know,
00:29:54.680 there is certainly a debate in Homer
00:29:56.600 about what your real motivation should be.
00:30:01.880 And Plato certainly expands that debate
00:30:04.160 and says, absolutely,
00:30:06.620 you should regard yourself
00:30:08.320 as a part of a greater whole.
00:30:11.060 And there is a passage in The Republic,
00:30:14.100 a literally totalitarian passage,
00:30:17.400 in which, to summarise,
00:30:20.680 he's sort of trying to get rid of the adjectives
00:30:22.920 I and my
00:30:23.920 and replace them with we and our.
00:30:27.240 And he says that
00:30:28.560 we are all sort of parts of the state
00:30:31.600 as if, you know,
00:30:32.480 we were a finger or a toe
00:30:34.060 as a part of the body.
00:30:36.600 And this is the idea
00:30:38.280 that everything you do
00:30:39.740 should be ultimately motivated
00:30:41.720 by how it serves your community as a whole.
00:30:45.140 That's how you should see your place in the world.
00:30:48.360 So there are roots of that idea
00:30:50.200 in Homer and in other earlier writers.
00:30:54.120 But Plato really develops that.
00:30:57.040 And, you know,
00:30:57.440 you mentioned role models
00:30:58.580 were very important to Plato
00:30:59.820 in making his case.
00:31:02.200 So we just mentioned Achilles.
00:31:03.320 I guess Achilles for Plato
00:31:04.740 would be an example
00:31:06.660 of what not to do, right?
00:31:10.680 To some extent.
00:31:11.780 I mean, he does,
00:31:12.440 he has this interrogation of
00:31:15.700 and fascination with Achilles
00:31:17.440 throughout much of his early
00:31:19.920 and middle work.
00:31:22.280 And he comes back to Achilles
00:31:24.160 again and again,
00:31:25.060 and he clearly finds Achilles
00:31:27.020 very charismatic and glamorous,
00:31:29.440 as indeed he is.
00:31:30.760 He is the most glamorous
00:31:32.420 of the Greek warriors.
00:31:35.860 And Plato certainly doesn't want
00:31:37.020 to dismiss everything about Achilles.
00:31:39.360 You know,
00:31:39.580 that he just,
00:31:40.900 you know,
00:31:41.120 that embodiment of the life force
00:31:43.240 and vital energy
00:31:45.420 that is Achilles.
00:31:46.420 Plato wants to harness that.
00:31:48.400 But he's certainly very critical
00:31:50.380 of his wild blood firstness,
00:31:54.420 of his extremely destructive anger,
00:31:58.020 destructive both to himself
00:31:59.600 and to the other Greek fighters.
00:32:02.800 He's critical of his insubordination,
00:32:06.040 both to his commander Agamemnon
00:32:07.880 and to the gods,
00:32:09.320 because as you remember
00:32:11.480 in the Iliad,
00:32:12.760 Achilles even challenges
00:32:14.100 and lambasts the gods on occasion.
00:32:17.540 He's really a real force of nature.
00:32:20.840 And so Plato wants to harness the energy,
00:32:25.060 but to turn it into much more
00:32:27.240 constructive channels.
00:32:30.140 And what he does with Achilles
00:32:31.980 and also with Odysseus,
00:32:33.500 another very famous Greek fighter,
00:32:36.380 famous for his endurance
00:32:40.080 of all sufferings
00:32:41.860 and his ability finally
00:32:43.220 to make it home to Ithaca,
00:32:45.320 but also cunning,
00:32:46.860 wily,
00:32:47.560 untrustworthy.
00:32:48.300 So again,
00:32:48.980 not a perfect role model.
00:32:51.440 And what Plato does
00:32:52.380 with both of those
00:32:53.760 is to rework them
00:32:56.260 and remodel them
00:32:57.360 and keep the best bits
00:32:58.660 and in a way
00:32:59.660 try to put the best bits together
00:33:02.140 into a new model,
00:33:04.460 which is his version
00:33:06.540 of the historical Socrates,
00:33:09.460 who was Plato's mentor
00:33:11.880 and friend,
00:33:12.820 who didn't write anything himself
00:33:16.620 but tramped around Athens
00:33:18.240 discussing philosophy
00:33:19.720 with anybody would listen
00:33:21.600 and quite a few who wouldn't
00:33:23.100 and was put to death
00:33:26.360 by the Athenian democracy
00:33:27.780 in 399 BC
00:33:29.940 allegedly for corrupting the young
00:33:32.980 and introducing new gods
00:33:34.360 into the city-state,
00:33:35.700 though it was probably more
00:33:36.900 of a political show trial.
00:33:39.240 And Plato knows
00:33:41.960 he doesn't want to just
00:33:42.760 get rid of Homer
00:33:44.380 and the Homeric role models
00:33:45.620 because he can see
00:33:46.920 people's fascination for them.
00:33:49.700 He knows that the young men
00:33:51.220 he's trying to educate
00:33:53.660 are intrigued by them
00:33:57.700 and these heroes.
00:33:59.140 So he wants to utilize that,
00:34:01.060 but he wants to remodel them
00:34:02.560 and rework them.
00:34:03.580 He wants to explore questions
00:34:06.260 about does Andrea,
00:34:08.960 does this manless and courage,
00:34:11.080 can it only be displayed
00:34:12.440 on a battlefield?
00:34:13.640 Can it not be displayed
00:34:14.840 in peacetime,
00:34:16.660 in civilian life?
00:34:18.720 Could not a philosopher,
00:34:20.180 a thinker,
00:34:20.840 a writer
00:34:21.560 be just as courageous
00:34:23.080 as a military warrior?
00:34:25.940 Is not Socrates
00:34:27.800 a paradigm of courage
00:34:31.580 in sticking to his philosophical beliefs
00:34:35.420 all his life,
00:34:37.240 even when eventually
00:34:38.740 he gets put to death
00:34:40.280 for standing up for philosophy?
00:34:43.440 So Plato is trying
00:34:45.740 to extend the field
00:34:48.060 of Andrea,
00:34:50.120 of courage and manliness,
00:34:52.420 into other areas
00:34:54.100 and the military ones.
00:34:56.240 Plato also wants to question
00:34:58.260 whether Andrea courage
00:35:01.280 is specifically male
00:35:03.400 and his answer there
00:35:04.600 I think is quite clear
00:35:05.740 that no it isn't
00:35:06.920 that women and men
00:35:08.580 exhibit virtues
00:35:09.980 in the same way
00:35:11.440 and that in terms of virtue
00:35:13.180 your gender
00:35:13.900 is irrelevant
00:35:14.860 and there is very good evidence
00:35:17.420 that Plato gets this idea
00:35:20.140 from the historical Socrates
00:35:21.920 himself,
00:35:23.020 that the historical Socrates
00:35:24.460 taught that there
00:35:26.380 is no sort of role specificity
00:35:30.600 to virtue,
00:35:32.380 to excellence,
00:35:33.460 that it doesn't depend
00:35:35.180 on gender
00:35:35.980 or class
00:35:37.080 or money
00:35:37.720 or anything else.
00:35:39.000 It depends entirely
00:35:40.700 on your inner qualities
00:35:42.780 of character
00:35:43.500 and the kind of actions
00:35:44.600 that stem from them.
00:35:47.020 So Plato is really engaged
00:35:52.640 in this lifelong interrogation
00:35:56.980 of what does it mean
00:35:58.700 to be a real man?
00:36:00.800 What does it mean
00:36:01.880 to be courageous?
00:36:03.420 Are the two inevitably interlinked?
00:36:06.060 Can women be courageous too?
00:36:08.380 Plato says yes,
00:36:09.180 yes absolutely
00:36:10.200 because in his ideally just state
00:36:12.560 there are going to be brave women auxiliaries
00:36:17.540 or women in the fighting force
00:36:19.400 and there are going to be philosopher queens
00:36:21.800 as well as philosopher kings
00:36:23.940 and they're all to display Andrea.
00:36:28.060 And also as we've seen
00:36:29.780 Andrea depends on Thumos,
00:36:33.600 this life force,
00:36:35.940 this spirited element
00:36:37.320 which in Plato
00:36:39.820 becomes formalized
00:36:42.140 into the third part
00:36:43.700 of his tripartite notion
00:36:45.940 of the psyche.
00:36:47.560 So for Plato,
00:36:48.800 the psyche does not just consist
00:36:50.900 of reason and the appetites
00:36:52.720 but also this third part,
00:36:54.780 the thumos or thumoedes
00:36:56.920 which is a motivational set,
00:37:01.600 if you like,
00:37:02.920 of qualities
00:37:05.120 which are aimed
00:37:06.340 at success,
00:37:09.920 honour,
00:37:10.680 glory.
00:37:11.480 It's everything to do
00:37:13.180 with a sense
00:37:15.500 of ourselves,
00:37:16.520 of how we stand
00:37:17.460 in the world.
00:37:19.660 Do others respect us?
00:37:21.480 Do we respect ourselves?
00:37:23.620 A really important
00:37:25.280 motivational set.
00:37:26.540 In fact,
00:37:27.040 we've seen it
00:37:28.000 raised a lot
00:37:29.440 in international politics
00:37:30.960 in the last two
00:37:31.760 or three years.
00:37:32.700 people's very deep need
00:37:35.960 to feel
00:37:36.600 that they count
00:37:37.600 for something,
00:37:39.200 that they are heard,
00:37:41.040 they're listened to,
00:37:41.900 that they matter,
00:37:42.880 that they count,
00:37:43.840 that they have status
00:37:45.140 within their society.
00:37:48.160 And we may or may not
00:37:49.640 feel that all the ways
00:37:51.120 that desire
00:37:52.400 manifests itself
00:37:54.060 are helpful
00:37:55.580 and Plato would have said
00:37:57.660 exactly the same thing,
00:37:58.860 this desire
00:37:59.840 for respect
00:38:01.140 and honour
00:38:01.640 and to feel
00:38:02.200 you count
00:38:02.680 for something
00:38:03.280 can manifest itself
00:38:04.560 in both helpful
00:38:05.480 and unhelpful ways.
00:38:07.120 He would have agreed.
00:38:08.580 However,
00:38:09.740 he would definitely
00:38:10.840 be saying to us
00:38:11.960 this
00:38:13.060 root
00:38:15.140 of
00:38:15.840 courage,
00:38:18.160 this
00:38:18.360 root of courage
00:38:20.120 is also
00:38:20.700 an absolutely
00:38:21.460 crucial part
00:38:22.600 of human
00:38:23.320 make-up,
00:38:24.260 which,
00:38:25.200 yes,
00:38:25.460 has a vital role
00:38:26.540 to play in courage,
00:38:27.580 but in other things
00:38:28.520 too,
00:38:28.920 it is a vital part
00:38:30.400 of what makes us
00:38:31.380 who we are
00:38:32.040 as human beings
00:38:33.560 and we need
00:38:35.240 to attend
00:38:36.240 to people's
00:38:37.180 deep need
00:38:38.420 for respect
00:38:39.440 and self-respect
00:38:40.540 as well
00:38:41.540 as our
00:38:42.440 yearning
00:38:43.880 for
00:38:44.500 truth
00:38:46.100 and
00:38:47.180 understanding
00:38:49.100 and as well
00:38:49.920 as our
00:38:50.500 desire to satisfy
00:38:51.960 certain
00:38:52.720 physical
00:38:53.820 and material
00:38:54.580 appetites.
00:38:55.440 So all of
00:38:56.540 this
00:38:56.980 Plato
00:38:57.860 is
00:38:58.580 interrogating
00:38:59.720 so it
00:39:00.140 starts
00:39:01.000 with
00:39:01.640 a question
00:39:04.180 about
00:39:04.880 the nature
00:39:06.200 of
00:39:06.900 Andrea
00:39:07.820 and manliness
00:39:09.140 and courage
00:39:09.840 and that's
00:39:10.340 a very important
00:39:11.380 conversation
00:39:12.060 in its own
00:39:12.760 right
00:39:13.140 but that
00:39:14.060 conversation
00:39:14.780 branches out
00:39:15.760 into even
00:39:16.420 broader
00:39:17.880 areas
00:39:18.680 to do
00:39:19.180 with
00:39:19.360 really
00:39:20.140 what is it
00:39:21.180 that makes
00:39:22.020 us human
00:39:23.480 fully human
00:39:24.440 what drives
00:39:25.660 us
00:39:26.160 and
00:39:27.740 Plato
00:39:28.800 is
00:39:29.180 unusual
00:39:30.640 amongst
00:39:31.160 philosophers
00:39:31.720 in putting
00:39:33.140 this need
00:39:34.920 for honour
00:39:35.460 and respect
00:39:36.300 so centrally
00:39:38.220 into the human
00:39:39.120 makeup
00:39:39.680 there
00:39:40.740 haven't
00:39:41.240 been
00:39:41.380 many
00:39:41.740 philosophers
00:39:42.240 who've
00:39:42.600 done
00:39:42.780 that
00:39:42.980 Bishop
00:39:43.300 Butler
00:39:43.780 much
00:39:45.080 later
00:39:45.420 on
00:39:45.660 in
00:39:45.780 the
00:39:45.900 18th
00:39:46.420 century
00:39:46.760 but
00:39:47.000 really
00:39:47.340 it's
00:39:47.660 Freud
00:39:48.160 in the
00:39:49.220 19th
00:39:49.920 century
00:39:50.400 a psychologist
00:39:51.660 rather than
00:39:52.260 a philosopher
00:39:52.800 who
00:39:53.260 works
00:39:54.840 with Plato's
00:39:55.580 psychology
00:39:56.160 and is
00:39:56.640 fascinated
00:39:57.220 by it
00:39:57.880 and to
00:39:58.460 some
00:39:59.080 degree
00:39:59.500 takes
00:40:01.680 Plato's
00:40:02.340 notion
00:40:02.740 of
00:40:03.100 the
00:40:03.420 thumos
00:40:04.000 and
00:40:04.340 reworks
00:40:04.980 it as
00:40:05.400 the
00:40:05.740 superego
00:40:06.680 so
00:40:08.420 how did
00:40:08.980 Plato's
00:40:09.860 interrogation
00:40:10.720 of
00:40:11.100 Andrea
00:40:11.620 how does
00:40:12.360 that
00:40:12.540 influence
00:40:13.260 modern
00:40:13.940 western
00:40:14.520 culture
00:40:15.000 or
00:40:15.280 modern
00:40:15.660 political
00:40:16.180 western
00:40:17.020 culture
00:40:17.440 it
00:40:20.320 well
00:40:20.460 it
00:40:20.600 started
00:40:21.060 influencing
00:40:21.860 debates
00:40:24.580 very
00:40:25.100 very
00:40:25.360 early
00:40:25.660 on
00:40:25.960 so
00:40:26.300 including
00:40:27.200 in the
00:40:27.540 ancient
00:40:27.840 world
00:40:28.280 we get
00:40:28.920 debates
00:40:30.200 about
00:40:32.380 whether
00:40:32.900 this
00:40:34.600 new
00:40:34.940 person
00:40:35.400 called
00:40:35.660 Jesus
00:40:36.140 could be
00:40:36.920 regarded
00:40:37.660 as a
00:40:38.460 hero
00:40:39.160 or not
00:40:40.040 and those
00:40:40.400 kinds
00:40:40.740 of
00:40:40.920 debates
00:40:41.380 I would
00:40:41.900 argue
00:40:42.340 are
00:40:43.200 influenced
00:40:44.160 by
00:40:44.780 Plato's
00:40:46.440 questioning
00:40:47.280 of the
00:40:47.660 whole
00:40:47.920 notion
00:40:48.340 of what
00:40:48.660 it is
00:40:48.960 to be
00:40:49.220 a
00:40:49.380 hero
00:40:49.660 what
00:40:49.960 is it
00:40:50.280 to be
00:40:50.660 a role
00:40:51.520 model
00:40:51.840 what
00:40:52.100 is
00:40:52.280 courage
00:40:52.880 and
00:40:54.580 then
00:40:55.040 we
00:40:55.620 get
00:40:56.580 this
00:40:57.020 sort
00:40:57.240 of
00:40:57.400 resurgence
00:40:58.440 of interest
00:40:59.300 in
00:40:59.740 the
00:41:00.300 19th
00:41:01.500 century
00:41:01.940 I've
00:41:03.000 mentioned
00:41:03.380 Freud
00:41:03.900 and the
00:41:04.460 way
00:41:04.780 he takes
00:41:05.480 Plato's
00:41:05.960 notion
00:41:06.280 of the
00:41:06.600 thumos
00:41:07.060 and
00:41:07.280 reworks
00:41:08.040 it
00:41:08.320 with
00:41:08.700 some
00:41:09.060 significant
00:41:09.540 alterations
00:41:10.400 as the
00:41:11.200 superego
00:41:11.820 and his
00:41:12.300 tripartite
00:41:13.160 ego
00:41:13.580 superego
00:41:14.840 and id
00:41:15.260 we get
00:41:16.280 Nietzsche
00:41:16.960 of course
00:41:17.720 now
00:41:18.020 Nietzsche
00:41:18.560 is a
00:41:18.860 really
00:41:19.160 interesting
00:41:19.900 person
00:41:20.420 in this
00:41:20.980 narrative
00:41:22.860 because
00:41:23.480 Nietzsche
00:41:23.860 kind of
00:41:24.280 says
00:41:24.760 what he
00:41:25.120 ostensibly
00:41:25.680 says
00:41:26.080 is that
00:41:26.420 he
00:41:26.620 despises
00:41:27.380 Socrates
00:41:27.940 and
00:41:28.320 Plato
00:41:28.660 he
00:41:29.060 says
00:41:29.920 their
00:41:30.120 life
00:41:30.480 deniers
00:41:31.180 unlike
00:41:31.820 Homer
00:41:32.240 who's
00:41:32.580 a
00:41:32.740 life
00:41:33.060 affirmer
00:41:33.720 and
00:41:34.000 for
00:41:34.480 Nietzsche
00:41:34.720 it's
00:41:35.000 all
00:41:35.220 about
00:41:35.520 life
00:41:35.900 affirmation
00:41:36.700 but
00:41:37.280 actually
00:41:37.880 Nietzsche
00:41:38.360 is always
00:41:39.640 intrigued
00:41:40.760 by the
00:41:43.460 character
00:41:43.900 of
00:41:44.360 Socrates
00:41:44.820 in
00:41:45.300 particular
00:41:45.940 and
00:41:46.920 Nietzsche
00:41:47.260 is
00:41:47.620 fascinated
00:41:48.560 by
00:41:49.060 Plato's
00:41:49.980 idea
00:41:50.520 that
00:41:50.920 the
00:41:51.220 philosopher
00:41:51.780 the
00:41:52.140 thinker
00:41:52.940 can
00:41:55.060 show
00:41:55.380 courage
00:41:56.000 can
00:41:56.780 be
00:41:57.240 a
00:41:57.580 hero
00:41:57.940 and
00:41:59.000 Nietzsche
00:41:59.440 certainly
00:41:59.860 develops
00:42:00.380 a
00:42:00.660 notion
00:42:01.000 of
00:42:01.220 a
00:42:01.380 philosopher
00:42:01.860 hero
00:42:02.380 in
00:42:03.240 his
00:42:03.700 works
00:42:04.420 and
00:42:04.800 I
00:42:05.040 suspect
00:42:05.540 saw
00:42:06.460 himself
00:42:06.880 in
00:42:07.340 that
00:42:07.520 light
00:42:07.800 to
00:42:08.000 some
00:42:08.200 extent
00:42:08.760 yes
00:42:09.440 I
00:42:09.740 would
00:42:10.060 say
00:42:10.340 that
00:42:10.500 we've
00:42:10.940 certainly
00:42:11.680 remained
00:42:13.820 very
00:42:14.260 influenced
00:42:14.860 by
00:42:15.180 Plato's
00:42:16.100 extension
00:42:16.880 of
00:42:17.400 the
00:42:17.700 sphere
00:42:18.500 of
00:42:19.340 courage
00:42:20.000 into
00:42:20.360 areas
00:42:20.960 other
00:42:21.200 than
00:42:21.420 the
00:42:21.600 battlefield
00:42:22.040 we've
00:42:23.640 at
00:42:24.620 least
00:42:25.000 theoretically
00:42:27.020 remained
00:42:28.100 very
00:42:28.820 much
00:42:30.820 persuaded
00:42:31.460 by his
00:42:32.040 notion
00:42:32.500 that
00:42:33.280 the
00:42:34.820 links
00:42:35.280 between
00:42:35.700 courage
00:42:36.420 and
00:42:36.920 its
00:42:37.220 root
00:42:37.480 meaning
00:42:37.760 of
00:42:37.940 manliness
00:42:38.640 need
00:42:39.080 to be
00:42:39.380 disentangled
00:42:40.320 and that
00:42:40.740 women
00:42:41.000 can be
00:42:41.900 as
00:42:42.380 courageous
00:42:42.840 as
00:42:43.220 men
00:42:43.580 however
00:42:44.660 I
00:42:45.100 would
00:42:45.320 add
00:42:45.500 that
00:42:45.640 we've
00:42:45.840 never
00:42:46.020 quite
00:42:46.920 got
00:42:48.180 over
00:42:48.620 the
00:42:49.180 original
00:42:50.520 initial
00:42:51.140 sort
00:42:51.680 of
00:42:51.820 links
00:42:52.260 between
00:42:53.260 courage
00:42:54.280 and
00:42:54.540 manliness
00:42:55.080 that we
00:42:55.540 saw
00:42:56.000 in
00:42:56.360 Homer
00:42:56.860 and if
00:42:59.680 you think
00:43:00.100 about it
00:43:00.760 even after
00:43:02.100 the Greeks
00:43:02.620 we have
00:43:03.020 the Romans
00:43:03.780 their word
00:43:04.920 for man
00:43:06.660 is
00:43:07.180 vir
00:43:07.720 and our
00:43:09.160 word
00:43:09.420 virtue
00:43:10.200 comes from
00:43:12.180 that word
00:43:13.200 and our
00:43:14.700 adjective
00:43:15.080 virile
00:43:15.840 comes from
00:43:16.540 that word
00:43:17.040 so we're
00:43:17.700 still
00:43:18.220 maybe we
00:43:18.860 don't always
00:43:19.320 realise it
00:43:20.040 we're still
00:43:20.460 influenced
00:43:21.060 I think
00:43:21.800 by the
00:43:22.760 very deep
00:43:23.860 European
00:43:25.720 links
00:43:27.080 between
00:43:27.460 certain
00:43:28.080 kinds
00:43:28.500 of
00:43:28.700 courageous
00:43:29.080 virtue
00:43:29.600 and
00:43:29.920 manliness
00:43:30.960 in our
00:43:31.560 thought
00:43:32.020 not always
00:43:33.620 to
00:43:34.180 our benefit
00:43:36.120 I would
00:43:36.600 say
00:43:37.040 but on
00:43:38.220 the whole
00:43:38.660 Plato
00:43:39.280 has won
00:43:41.300 the debate
00:43:41.860 to some
00:43:42.660 extent
00:43:43.460 however I
00:43:44.540 would say
00:43:45.380 that there
00:43:45.940 is a real
00:43:47.520 danger
00:43:48.480 and it's a
00:43:48.960 danger that
00:43:49.480 Plato is
00:43:50.140 very aware
00:43:51.400 of in
00:43:52.500 his dialogues
00:43:53.260 and I
00:43:53.680 think we're
00:43:54.060 seeing a
00:43:54.660 resurgence
00:43:55.140 of it
00:43:55.560 now
00:43:56.060 so in
00:43:57.260 his critique
00:43:57.980 of different
00:43:58.620 notions of
00:43:59.340 courage and
00:43:59.960 manliness
00:44:00.620 Plato doesn't
00:44:01.940 just interrogate
00:44:03.780 the heroes
00:44:05.080 in Homer
00:44:05.640 he also
00:44:06.860 interrogates
00:44:07.940 popular ideals
00:44:10.060 of manliness
00:44:11.240 in his own
00:44:12.460 day in the
00:44:13.440 fourth century
00:44:14.160 BC when he
00:44:15.100 was writing
00:44:15.760 and there
00:44:17.200 are two
00:44:17.600 characters who
00:44:18.540 appear in his
00:44:19.740 dialogues
00:44:20.440 in particular
00:44:21.700 who I
00:44:22.860 think
00:44:23.180 are unfortunately
00:44:24.400 having a
00:44:25.100 resurgence
00:44:25.660 in popularity
00:44:26.660 now not
00:44:27.580 that people
00:44:28.120 may be aware
00:44:28.940 of the
00:44:29.240 connection
00:44:29.640 but what
00:44:30.880 Plato is
00:44:31.300 talking about
00:44:31.880 is having
00:44:32.260 a resurgence
00:44:32.900 one is the
00:44:34.340 character of
00:44:34.900 Calicles in
00:44:36.040 a dialogue
00:44:36.720 Plato wrote
00:44:37.300 called the
00:44:37.680 Gorgias
00:44:38.300 and Calicles
00:44:39.540 gives them
00:44:40.500 I would say
00:44:41.220 the most
00:44:41.920 powerful
00:44:42.620 eloquent
00:44:43.560 and disturbing
00:44:45.400 speech in
00:44:47.020 praise of the
00:44:48.220 theory that
00:44:48.800 might is
00:44:49.520 right
00:44:50.120 that possibly
00:44:51.520 we have in
00:44:52.140 the whole of
00:44:52.660 western literature
00:44:53.980 that power
00:44:57.180 and strength
00:44:57.900 are magnificent
00:44:58.940 that those
00:45:00.740 who are
00:45:01.520 in his words
00:45:02.460 more manly
00:45:03.540 and he uses
00:45:04.180 that phrase
00:45:05.060 many many
00:45:05.920 times
00:45:06.660 that those
00:45:07.800 who are more
00:45:08.240 manly and
00:45:09.140 more resourceful
00:45:10.300 and stronger
00:45:11.060 than others
00:45:11.720 it is right
00:45:12.980 and proper
00:45:14.240 that they should
00:45:15.260 have more
00:45:15.760 material goods
00:45:16.660 and more power
00:45:18.000 thinks
00:45:18.960 Calicles
00:45:19.660 he thinks
00:45:21.920 there are
00:45:22.200 naturally
00:45:23.000 lion-like
00:45:24.020 men
00:45:24.480 who should
00:45:25.280 by rights
00:45:26.540 rule
00:45:27.200 he also
00:45:28.640 disturbingly
00:45:29.880 sees
00:45:30.580 democracy
00:45:31.440 as
00:45:32.420 a hindrance
00:45:33.940 to these
00:45:34.660 lion-like
00:45:35.340 men
00:45:35.700 taking their
00:45:36.540 rightful
00:45:37.160 position
00:45:37.600 in the
00:45:37.940 world
00:45:38.300 he thinks
00:45:38.960 democracy
00:45:39.520 is a
00:45:39.860 terrible
00:45:40.160 idea
00:45:40.660 which
00:45:41.400 thwarts
00:45:41.980 the ambitions
00:45:42.940 of the
00:45:43.420 naturally
00:45:43.900 strong
00:45:44.880 and he
00:45:45.220 really
00:45:45.700 doesn't
00:45:46.000 want
00:45:46.180 much
00:45:46.460 truck
00:45:46.820 with it
00:45:47.260 and his
00:45:49.200 ideal
00:45:50.040 of the
00:45:50.580 strong
00:45:51.300 resourceful
00:45:52.700 ruthless
00:45:53.800 man of
00:45:54.500 affairs
00:45:54.980 was very
00:45:55.520 admired
00:45:56.340 in
00:45:56.600 Plato's
00:45:57.160 day
00:45:57.500 another
00:45:59.180 proponent
00:45:59.820 of a
00:46:00.520 similar
00:46:01.000 kind
00:46:01.360 of ideal
00:46:01.900 is put
00:46:02.940 forward
00:46:03.320 by the
00:46:03.860 character
00:46:04.260 of
00:46:04.500 Thrasymachus
00:46:05.000 in
00:46:05.880 Plato's
00:46:06.520 Republic
00:46:06.960 and again
00:46:08.540 Thrasymachus
00:46:09.640 also
00:46:10.080 thinks
00:46:11.020 might
00:46:11.800 is right
00:46:12.340 he's got
00:46:12.920 a slightly
00:46:13.320 different
00:46:13.760 ideal
00:46:14.260 from
00:46:14.560 Calicles
00:46:15.040 in that
00:46:15.640 for
00:46:16.220 Thrasymachus
00:46:16.800 the definition
00:46:18.280 of strength
00:46:19.100 is simply
00:46:19.860 whoever does
00:46:20.620 possess
00:46:21.160 political
00:46:21.720 power
00:46:22.180 if you
00:46:22.920 possess
00:46:23.560 political
00:46:24.040 power
00:46:24.560 that shows
00:46:25.880 you are
00:46:26.240 strong
00:46:26.600 whether
00:46:27.840 you're
00:46:28.140 a
00:46:28.280 democrat
00:46:28.620 an
00:46:28.940 oligarch
00:46:29.440 an
00:46:29.660 aristocrat
00:46:30.320 a monarch
00:46:30.740 a tyrant
00:46:31.380 it is
00:46:32.140 simply
00:46:32.460 the possession
00:46:32.980 of power
00:46:33.540 that shows
00:46:34.660 that you're
00:46:35.020 one of the
00:46:35.460 strong
00:46:35.880 but again
00:46:37.560 like
00:46:37.920 Calicles
00:46:38.380 Thrasymachus
00:46:39.300 has this
00:46:40.260 very deep
00:46:41.040 admiration
00:46:41.620 for the
00:46:42.140 ruthless
00:46:42.640 successful
00:46:43.720 man
00:46:44.760 who is
00:46:45.500 able to
00:46:46.160 do
00:46:46.560 whatever
00:46:47.120 he wants
00:46:47.820 by whatever
00:46:48.680 means
00:46:49.640 he wants
00:46:50.320 and get
00:46:51.200 away with
00:46:51.980 it
00:46:52.260 now
00:46:53.840 Plato
00:46:55.220 takes on
00:46:56.400 both these
00:46:57.060 characters
00:46:57.740 in the
00:46:59.120 Gorgias
00:46:59.680 and the
00:47:00.140 Republic
00:47:00.500 respectively
00:47:01.300 he thinks
00:47:02.220 they're his
00:47:02.800 main
00:47:03.500 moral
00:47:04.980 opposition
00:47:05.660 as we've
00:47:08.460 seen
00:47:08.760 with the
00:47:09.100 Homeric
00:47:09.740 heroes
00:47:10.320 he thinks
00:47:11.020 there are
00:47:11.820 strengths
00:47:12.300 and weaknesses
00:47:13.160 and he thinks
00:47:13.860 there are some
00:47:14.440 good things
00:47:15.060 about Achilles
00:47:15.780 and Odysseus
00:47:16.620 that he can
00:47:17.280 remodel
00:47:17.980 and incorporate
00:47:19.220 into his
00:47:19.960 new ideal
00:47:20.760 of Socrates
00:47:22.580 but with
00:47:24.420 the
00:47:24.740 ideals of
00:47:26.740 Calicles
00:47:27.180 and Thrasymachus
00:47:28.040 he thinks
00:47:28.760 it's much
00:47:29.520 more dangerous
00:47:30.200 because he
00:47:30.620 thinks that
00:47:31.260 their heroes
00:47:33.100 really are
00:47:34.260 amoral
00:47:35.440 and are
00:47:36.700 utterly out
00:47:37.640 for themselves
00:47:38.400 utterly ruthless
00:47:39.880 utterly
00:47:40.600 unscrupulous
00:47:41.680 and are also
00:47:44.420 completely happy
00:47:45.540 to lie
00:47:46.580 and deceive
00:47:47.260 others
00:47:48.040 and
00:47:48.640 manipulate
00:47:50.800 people
00:47:51.520 through
00:47:52.200 rhetoric
00:47:53.300 and
00:47:54.120 I think
00:47:55.520 if Plato
00:47:56.000 were alive
00:47:56.680 now
00:47:57.080 he would
00:47:57.420 look around
00:47:57.920 the world
00:47:58.520 and he
00:47:59.640 would say
00:48:00.100 watch out
00:48:01.260 world
00:48:01.960 because
00:48:02.660 the ideals
00:48:04.140 of Thrasymachus
00:48:04.880 and Calicles
00:48:05.720 are on the
00:48:07.080 rise again
00:48:08.080 and it is
00:48:09.160 going to be
00:48:09.620 very bad news
00:48:10.660 for society
00:48:11.380 we need to
00:48:12.380 be very
00:48:12.940 very alert
00:48:14.440 we need
00:48:15.440 philosophy
00:48:16.380 we need to
00:48:17.080 think
00:48:17.580 we need
00:48:18.680 to use
00:48:19.400 our human
00:48:19.960 power of
00:48:20.620 reason
00:48:20.980 and we
00:48:21.460 need to
00:48:21.880 harness
00:48:22.440 our
00:48:23.660 spirited
00:48:25.000 energy
00:48:25.480 and our
00:48:25.940 metal
00:48:26.360 for
00:48:27.500 the
00:48:28.520 greater
00:48:29.020 reflective
00:48:30.320 good
00:48:30.900 I'm curious
00:48:32.740 why do you
00:48:33.360 what would
00:48:33.880 Plato say
00:48:34.460 why
00:48:34.700 why these
00:48:36.740 ideals
00:48:37.480 of
00:48:38.200 that you
00:48:39.660 were just
00:48:39.920 talking about
00:48:40.300 why they're
00:48:40.700 back on the
00:48:41.260 rise
00:48:41.460 what makes
00:48:41.960 them appealing
00:48:42.500 to people
00:48:43.180 in his
00:48:46.200 own time
00:48:46.980 they had
00:48:47.620 found
00:48:49.040 favour
00:48:49.800 that
00:48:50.140 particularly
00:48:50.800 in the
00:48:51.260 last years
00:48:52.300 of the
00:48:52.900 5th century
00:48:53.680 BC
00:48:54.120 which were
00:48:54.900 times of
00:48:55.700 great
00:48:56.360 suffering
00:48:58.500 and stress
00:48:59.220 for Athens
00:48:59.900 there was a
00:49:00.560 very long
00:49:01.400 protracted
00:49:02.340 war with
00:49:02.940 Sparta
00:49:03.580 there was
00:49:05.480 a disastrous
00:49:06.720 expedition
00:49:07.540 against
00:49:08.200 Sicily
00:49:08.840 in which
00:49:09.640 the Athenians
00:49:10.500 lost
00:49:11.080 heavily
00:49:11.680 in terms
00:49:12.400 of both
00:49:12.940 men
00:49:13.440 and
00:49:14.040 money
00:49:15.200 and
00:49:15.820 honour
00:49:16.260 and
00:49:16.560 respect
00:49:17.160 there was
00:49:19.020 a terrible
00:49:19.540 plague
00:49:20.280 in Athens
00:49:20.900 there were
00:49:21.380 food
00:49:21.840 shortages
00:49:22.460 so people
00:49:23.180 were under
00:49:23.720 very very
00:49:24.980 severe
00:49:25.480 stresses
00:49:26.100 and to
00:49:27.500 in Plato's
00:49:28.980 eyes
00:49:29.420 to a large
00:49:30.060 extent
00:49:30.640 moral society
00:49:32.020 cracked
00:49:32.920 under
00:49:33.640 the strain
00:49:34.800 and did
00:49:35.600 not cope
00:49:36.200 well
00:49:36.620 and people
00:49:37.600 were yearning
00:49:38.620 for
00:49:39.800 a strong
00:49:40.700 man
00:49:41.080 to come
00:49:41.580 along
00:49:42.000 and sort
00:49:42.940 of a
00:49:43.240 kind
00:49:43.380 of a
00:49:43.640 fantasy
00:49:44.040 of the
00:49:44.400 strong
00:49:44.680 man
00:49:44.920 to come
00:49:45.280 along
00:49:45.560 and sort
00:49:46.420 out their
00:49:46.840 problems
00:49:47.280 and make
00:49:48.040 everything
00:49:48.620 all right
00:49:49.840 again
00:49:50.100 a kind
00:49:50.480 of magical
00:49:51.080 thinking
00:49:51.700 if you
00:49:52.100 like
00:49:52.520 but
00:49:54.260 Plato's
00:49:55.020 view
00:49:55.380 is that
00:49:56.700 getting
00:49:59.160 getting a
00:49:59.480 lot of
00:49:59.760 bad
00:50:00.020 people
00:50:00.400 together
00:50:00.880 is not
00:50:01.580 going to
00:50:02.060 bring
00:50:02.340 about
00:50:02.620 good
00:50:03.220 outcomes
00:50:04.000 and that
00:50:05.240 the best
00:50:05.760 thing to
00:50:06.160 do to
00:50:06.720 cope
00:50:07.080 with
00:50:07.540 problems
00:50:09.300 in human
00:50:09.900 existence
00:50:10.440 whether
00:50:11.000 they're
00:50:11.560 to do
00:50:12.420 with the
00:50:12.760 natural
00:50:13.120 environment
00:50:13.760 or the
00:50:14.580 economy
00:50:15.020 or whatever
00:50:15.660 is to
00:50:17.380 use
00:50:18.680 our
00:50:19.260 reason
00:50:20.020 to think
00:50:20.820 through
00:50:21.320 our
00:50:21.640 problems
00:50:22.120 to engage
00:50:23.060 in dialogue
00:50:24.020 and calm
00:50:25.940 courteous
00:50:27.500 rational
00:50:28.160 debate
00:50:28.880 to
00:50:29.920 recognize
00:50:30.640 the dark
00:50:31.480 side as
00:50:32.080 well as
00:50:32.400 the good
00:50:32.780 side of
00:50:33.380 human
00:50:33.720 nature
00:50:34.200 and to
00:50:35.080 do what
00:50:35.460 we can
00:50:36.080 to harness
00:50:36.700 the good
00:50:37.300 and to
00:50:38.780 dial down
00:50:40.360 if you
00:50:40.660 like
00:50:41.000 the bad
00:50:41.760 side
00:50:42.280 in humans
00:50:43.780 and for
00:50:45.720 him it
00:50:46.360 would be
00:50:46.700 dialogue
00:50:47.200 it would
00:50:47.700 be formal
00:50:48.280 and informal
00:50:49.100 education
00:50:49.920 it would
00:50:51.080 be surrounding
00:50:51.780 ourselves
00:50:52.380 with
00:50:52.800 a healthy
00:50:54.040 vibrant
00:50:54.980 culture
00:50:55.940 and it
00:50:57.060 would be
00:50:57.620 an ability
00:50:58.780 to see
00:51:00.380 through
00:51:01.080 these
00:51:02.460 allegedly
00:51:03.700 you know
00:51:04.160 these self
00:51:04.860 proclaimed
00:51:05.460 strong
00:51:06.060 leaders
00:51:06.520 and see
00:51:07.680 them for
00:51:08.060 what they
00:51:08.440 are
00:51:08.780 and not
00:51:09.940 be fooled
00:51:11.320 by the
00:51:11.760 very seductive
00:51:12.740 rhetoric
00:51:13.840 because it's
00:51:15.280 not they
00:51:16.380 are not going
00:51:16.840 to solve
00:51:17.420 our problems
00:51:18.180 they're in
00:51:18.640 it for
00:51:19.060 themselves
00:51:19.640 in Plato's
00:51:20.540 view
00:51:20.800 we have
00:51:22.040 to solve
00:51:22.500 our problems
00:51:23.260 ourselves
00:51:24.760 and not
00:51:25.320 look to
00:51:26.120 mythical
00:51:27.000 strong men
00:51:27.680 to sort
00:51:28.120 them out
00:51:28.560 we have
00:51:29.420 to think
00:51:29.940 we have
00:51:31.500 to talk
00:51:32.040 and we
00:51:34.020 have to
00:51:34.660 invest in
00:51:35.360 education
00:51:35.940 well Angie
00:51:36.980 this has been
00:51:37.460 a great
00:51:37.940 conversation
00:51:38.620 where can
00:51:39.100 people learn
00:51:39.600 more about
00:51:40.060 your work
00:51:40.620 so I
00:51:42.660 have a
00:51:44.200 pretty full
00:51:45.120 website
00:51:45.820 Angie
00:51:47.200 Hobbs
00:51:47.700 dot com
00:51:48.540 A-N-G-I-E
00:51:49.920 H-O-B-B-S
00:51:52.020 dot com
00:51:52.740 and that
00:51:54.480 has a lot
00:51:55.380 of links
00:51:55.880 to TV
00:51:57.220 and radio
00:51:57.860 programs
00:51:58.440 that I've
00:51:58.860 made over
00:51:59.360 the years
00:51:59.860 and to a
00:52:00.240 lot of
00:52:00.520 my written
00:52:01.160 material
00:52:01.800 I also
00:52:04.540 tweet a lot
00:52:06.040 about what
00:52:06.500 I'm doing
00:52:07.080 and on
00:52:08.400 at Dr
00:52:09.340 Angie
00:52:09.740 Hobbs
00:52:10.340 so I
00:52:12.040 have a
00:52:12.300 job in
00:52:12.680 the public
00:52:13.080 understanding
00:52:13.780 of philosophy
00:52:14.460 here in
00:52:15.100 the UK
00:52:15.500 so a
00:52:17.300 very great
00:52:17.780 deal of
00:52:18.160 my work
00:52:18.680 is in
00:52:19.260 the public
00:52:19.800 sphere
00:52:20.620 and people
00:52:22.480 can always
00:52:23.000 contact me
00:52:23.700 by Twitter
00:52:24.960 by email
00:52:25.820 and
00:52:27.300 I'm
00:52:29.340 happy to
00:52:30.380 continue the
00:52:31.500 dialogue and
00:52:32.140 the conversation
00:52:32.860 fantastic
00:52:34.060 Angie Hobbs
00:52:34.640 thank you so
00:52:34.960 much for your
00:52:35.260 time it's
00:52:35.640 been a
00:52:35.920 pleasure
00:52:36.240 it's been
00:52:36.940 a huge
00:52:37.320 pleasure
00:52:37.660 thank you
00:52:38.680 so much
00:52:39.180 I've really
00:52:39.680 enjoyed it
00:52:40.360 my guest
00:52:40.920 today was
00:52:41.120 Angie Hobbs
00:52:41.600 she's a
00:52:41.920 professor of
00:52:42.420 philosophy
00:52:42.880 and the
00:52:43.340 author of
00:52:43.820 the book
00:52:44.200 Plato and
00:52:44.800 the Hero
00:52:45.200 it's available
00:52:45.980 on Amazon.com
00:52:47.040 also you can
00:52:47.860 find out more
00:52:48.260 about her
00:52:48.660 work at
00:52:49.520 AngieHobbs.com
00:52:51.160 and also check out
00:52:51.960 our show notes
00:52:52.560 at AOM.IS
00:52:53.680 slash Hobbs
00:52:54.380 where you can
00:52:54.720 find links to
00:52:55.260 resources where
00:52:55.880 you can delve
00:52:56.160 deeper into
00:52:56.660 this topic
00:52:57.200 well that
00:53:10.020 wraps up another
00:53:10.740 edition of the
00:53:11.420 Art of Manliness
00:53:12.140 podcast for
00:53:12.820 more manly
00:53:13.240 tips and
00:53:13.540 advice make
00:53:13.980 sure to check
00:53:14.340 out the
00:53:14.560 Art of
00:53:14.800 Manliness
00:53:15.080 website at
00:53:15.680 artofmanliness.com
00:53:16.780 our show is
00:53:17.640 edited by
00:53:18.100 Creative Audio
00:53:18.600 Lab here in
00:53:19.200 Tulsa, Oklahoma
00:53:19.880 if you have
00:53:20.240 any audio
00:53:20.700 editing needs
00:53:21.300 or audio
00:53:21.660 production needs
00:53:22.420 check them
00:53:22.800 out at
00:53:23.040 creativeaudiolab.com
00:53:24.500 we appreciate
00:53:25.140 your continued
00:53:25.500 support of the
00:53:25.920 podcast reviews
00:53:26.780 really help us
00:53:27.320 out a lot
00:53:27.680 so drop us
00:53:28.160 one on iTunes
00:53:28.760 or wherever
00:53:29.500 else you
00:53:29.840 usually listen
00:53:30.180 to the
00:53:30.380 podcast
00:53:30.660 as always
00:53:31.260 thank you
00:53:31.620 for your
00:53:31.840 continued
00:53:32.000 support
00:53:32.320 and until
00:53:32.740 next time
00:53:33.200 this is
00:53:33.440 Brett McKay
00:53:34.000 telling you to
00:53:34.560 stay
00:53:35.000 manly