#264： How to Coach People in Business, Sports, and Life
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Summary
In this episode of the Art of Manliness podcast, Brett McKay talks to Michael Bungay Stanger, the author of The Coaching Habit, about how to be more coach-like in your work and in your personal life. They discuss how to coach in a way that makes the recipient receptive to your feedback but doesn't take up too much of your time and energy.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. So whether
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you're a parent, a manager or a mentor, we all have to coach people at some point in
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our life. But how do you coach in a way that makes the recipient receptive to your feedback
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but doesn't take up too much of your time and energy? Well, my guest today has spent his
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career coaching managers on how to be better leaders at work and he's distilled his knowledge
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on how to coach effectively in his latest book. His name is Michael Bungay Stanger and
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his book is The Coaching Habit. And today on the show, Michael and I discuss how effective
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coaching requires you to talk less and ask more questions. And then Michael walks us through
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the exact questions you should ask when coaching someone that will guide them to the answer
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they need to make their needed improvement. This works across domains, whether you're a
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parent, a business, even if you're a sports coach, this stuff will work. A lot of actionable
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advice. Make sure to check out the show notes at aom.is slash coaching habit after the show's
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over where you can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic.
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It is very good to be here. Thanks for having me, Brett.
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So you've written several books. Your latest book is called The Coaching Habit and it's all
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about providing coaching in a work setting, but I think it could apply in other ways too in your
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personal life or if you're a coach of a sports team. But let's focus on the business aspect
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because I think people who are listening, they're either a manager or they're a leader of some sort
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of their job where they have to provide coaching or training to their employees.
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And you highlight research in your book that shows that leaders and managers who regularly take part
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in coaching create a markedly positive impact on the company's performance and profitability.
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Yet at the same time, most leaders and managers don't make time for coaching.
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So why is it that disconnect there? Like they know it's good, but they don't.
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Exactly. So you've seen that research that says most people have found that if you do exercise,
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you're markedly better in your life. And yet, if you eat well, you have a markedly improved life.
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And yet, so partly we're just dealing with that, that human nature piece, which is around,
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we have habits. It's hard to shift out of habits, even when we know we're good. I mean,
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one of the most telling pieces of research I saw about just how hard it is to shift out of old ways
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of behaving. I think I read this in the Fast Company magazine some years ago. Look, people with
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serious heart disease, not chronic, actually critical heart disease. And they have this kind of
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operation that effectively saves their lives. And the doctor says, look, operation, it stopped you
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dying immediately, but it's not going to stop you dying unless you actually change the way you live
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your life. And I think that the number was only one in eight was able to change their lifestyle
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so as to live a healthier life. And so, I mean, this is literally a matter of life and death,
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and people find it really hard to shift out of the way that they're working.
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So the first thing I'd say, Brett, is this, that, you know, you're right, that the person I had in
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mind when I wrote this was a busy manager, probably keen to do their job, trying to do their best,
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feeling a bit overwhelmed, feeling that the team isn't perhaps hitting their peak, and maybe they're
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not hitting their peak. How do you help people be more coach-like? But truthfully, this is the stuff
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in the book and the stuff we're going to talk about is just useful if you interact with other human
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beings. If you deal with other human beings, this is going to help you. But why is it so hard
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to be more coach-like? And I'm trying to distinguish the difference between being a coach,
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which, you know, lots of people just don't want to do, and being more coach-like, which could
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actually help pretty much everybody. And when I define this, it's pretty simple stuff. You know,
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I would say being more coach-like is simply, how do you stay curious just a little bit longer?
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How do you rush to action and advice just a little bit slower? Because the truth of the matter is,
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most of us are advice-giving maniacs. I mean, we love it. You know, it's like, I don't even know what
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the problem is, Brett, but I've already got some initial ideas about how you should be doing things
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differently. It's really just a deep habit in terms of the way we show up. Because honestly,
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for most of our life, we've been praised and paid and promoted to have the answers, to know what's
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going on, to stay in control. And that shift from curiosity, which is, you know, if you have a few
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good questions, and you have the way and means to make them into asking them into a habit, that shift
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sounds simple, but it's actually trickier than you'd think. Yeah. I mean, that's a long answer
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to your question, but does that give you a sense of what we're talking about? Yeah, it does. And I
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like the distinction between being a coach and being coach-like. Because I think when most people
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think being a coach, I think like this guy barking orders, doing this, but coach-like is more of a
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mindset where you're looking at people where there are and trying to help them find answers or
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solutions themselves. Yeah. Working with them. Well, what I love is that when you say people
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think, you know, be coach, be a coach, they go to two different paths. One is the classic sports
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coach, you know, with the whistle, drop and give me 20, sort of shouting orders. The other is kind
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of vanishing into the kind of Californian hippie therapy incest. Life coach. Pastel colored life
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coaching stuff. And honestly, people can look at both of those options and go, I am not the least bit
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interested in either of those two stereotypes. Obviously the truth is there are plenty of sports
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coaches that are fantastic. There are plenty of life coaches that are fantastic. But it is a
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distinction to say, look, just forget being a coach, just be more coach-like, just stay curious
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just a little bit longer. Even if there's coaching or mentorship programs in place at an office,
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most employees report that it's not very good. They'd rather like not have it. So what's wrong with
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the way, the way most companies or managers go about coaching?
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Yeah, it's, it's a bit of a dilemma. I mean, the, the research pointed out that I think as close to
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75% of managers said that they had some form of training. Now, who knows what that means? It could
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be, you know, he's had to be an active listener. He's, he's my theory on coaching, whatever it might be.
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But it really didn't seem to translate into impact in the workplace. Um, in fact, in that study,
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10% of people said that the coaching was actually having a negative effect on their impact and on
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their enthusiasm for the job. And I was just like, man, there must be, there must be a tough
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conversation to be part of, you know, come into my office, Brett, because my plan is to demotivate
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you by coaching you some. Um, so what, why doesn't it work? Well, I think part of it is
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potentially a way that people are taught coaching and, you know, I, I'm, I have a bias in saying this
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because, you know, my company box of crayons, we make our money by training people to be more coach
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like. So, you know, I, I have a, I have a biased opinion about why coach training doesn't work.
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Um, but often there's not a great deal of translation from theory and models and abstractness
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to practical tools. And I think that's probably one of the biggest gaps, which is people just find it
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hard to, to move from the classroom and go back into their day-to-day work to be more coach-like.
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Um, and I just think that, you know, in many organizations, what coaching is set up to be
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is an occasional intervention. Like, okay, Brett, it's the, it's the first of the month,
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first Monday of the month, come into my office. We're going to have our coaching session.
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And honestly, you know, your heart drops when you hear that you're like, Oh God. Okay. So what's
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this going to be about this time? And if you're the manager, if you're on the other side of the
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table, your heart drops, which is like, ah, you know, I'm doing a fine job at managing them, but
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I'm working with them and supporting them and encouraging them. But apparently I don't have to
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coach them, whatever that means. And so you have this kind of awkward monthly conversation
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and both of you are delighted when it's finished. And both of you are delighted that it's a month
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until you have to go through that a second time. So I think that's the other key thing, which is
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for us, coaching isn't about the occasional event. It's about understanding that every interaction
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can be a bit more coach-like. So whether I'm having a meeting with you, whether I'm just
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bumping into you in the corridor, whether I'm managing by walking about, whether we're even
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trading emails, I can actually bring a kind of coaching mentality, being more coach-like
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into that. And in doing so kind of strip back some of that kind of anxiety and formality
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that sometimes comes with coaching. You know, the metaphor that we like to talk about is saying,
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look, what we're after is drip irrigation, not the occasional flash flood. And that's really the
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heart of it. And I think the fact that coaching can feel like the occasional flash flood in many
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organizations is part of where it goes wrong. Right. And so that hence the name of your book,
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The Coaching Habit, like coaching for you isn't just a one-time event. It is something you do on a
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continual basis. You got it. I mean, the first chapter of the book is actually all about the science of
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habit building because, and you know, honestly, whether you're interested in coaching or not,
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if you're interested in living a better life, you got to know how habits work because habits are the
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building blocks of behavior change. So, you know, if not the Coaching Habit book, you know,
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Charles Duhigg's book called The Power of Habit. If not Duhigg, go to BJ Fogg's website,
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which is tinyhabits.com. And there's a ton of great resources there. If not BJ Fogg, go to
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Leo Babauter and Zen Habits and look up stuff there about building new habits. If not Leo Babauter,
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then Gretchen Rubin. There's a lot of people out there who've written some smart stuff about
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habit building. And it's really useful if you're looking to live a life which has
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more impact and more meaning to actually understand how the science of habits work.
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Right. So, and so basically the coaching habit is developed like any other habit. You just make
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small changes on a regular basis and the change is going to come slowly, but it will come as you
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keep digging at it. Right. I mean, it's one of those pernicious things that's out there in the
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world about, you know, how to build a habit, which is like, just do it for 21 days and you've got a
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habit. And, you know, sad to say that somebody just made that up and now, and now it's out there
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on the internet and on the front of magazines and stuff. Um, it takes longer than that typically
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to build a habit. Um, but you know, there's actually not a set number of days. It depends
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on the habit. It depends on the person. It depends on the context. Also, all those things play a big
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role, but yeah, the way you do habit is repeated acts. That's how you build it. You know, in the brain,
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you know, the, the, the saying in neuroscience is what fires together, wires together. And what
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they're talking about is they're kind of links between the different neural in the creating new
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neural pathways in your brain. And the more you walk a certain pathway, the more you repeat a
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behavior, the more that connection in your brain strengthens. And the more that happens, the more
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likely it is to become a habit. And in the process you're, you change your, your character changes,
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is your, I wouldn't say your personality changes, but like, yeah, there's something about your
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character that changes. That's a great, I mean, that's a, that's a really interesting,
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elusive question, which is, you know, what are we as human beings? What are we? And you know,
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are we a collection of our behaviors? Well, you know, the, the, the proof of the pudding is in what we do
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often, you know, you ask people what they stand for in this world and they can give you an answer
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or you can look at how they show up in the world and you can figure out what matters to them,
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what's important to them, what their values are. And you, you can make the comment, you can have the
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conversation about what matters to me, but really it's like, how are you living your life? What does
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that tell you about who you are as a man, as a woman, who are you in this world? What does that tell
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you about what you stand for? And, uh, there's often a pretty big gap between how we see ourselves and
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what we actually end up doing. Right. It's very Aristotelian. Aristotle thought, you know, we are
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our actions. Right. We are what we repeatedly do. Right. Yeah. So let's, let's get into the specifics
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of how to develop this coaching habit. So the whole, just starting a quote unquote coaching
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conversation can be awkward because I mean, basically you're insinuating to the person,
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Hey, look, you're not very good at this and you need some help. And a lot of folks, I mean,
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they can resent that it's natural. Of course you're a bit crappy. Let me, who loves that
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conversation? Yes. Not many people. So how can you start off a coaching conversation that's both
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tactful and will lead to a productive conversation? Well, the first thing I want to do is just reframe
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your question a little bit, because I don't think a coaching conversation, particularly the way we think
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about it as a kind of just a daily way of showing up a mindset means that you're implying that somebody's
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not very good or somebody's failing or somebody's wandered off the path, whatever it might be.
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Really what you're doing is you're saying, my goal is to help this person move towards fulfilling and
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expressing their full potential. So how do I do that? And so much around helping them unlock what's
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already there, helping them. And this is the quote from one of the kind of real influences in the world
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of coaching. A guy who said John Whitmore, John Whitmore says, you're helping people to learn
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rather than teaching them. And that's really powerful. Um, because what that gives you is the
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distinction is it's like, okay, if I want this, if my job as a, as a manager, as a leader, as a parent,
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as a teacher, as a friend, as a human being, if my job is to help those around me
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get to the best version of themselves, how do I do that? And often it's about how can you ask the
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question that helps them have their own aha moment that helps them kind of step up and become the
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better version of themselves. So all of that just to say, it's not about necessarily the person's
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somehow screwed up or going wrong or, you know, they're just not very good. It's more about, it's more
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a self-management tool to say, how do you slow down your desire to tell them what to do? How do
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you, how do you help them get going on this? And again, another long answer to your question. If
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anybody's forgotten the question, because it was so long ago, it's like, how do you get going
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on this conversation? And you're right in the book, we, we talk about seven essential questions.
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And the very first question of the seven is the kickstart question, because we say it's a great way to
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start lots of different conversations. And the question is this, what's on your mind? And the
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reason why that question can be powerful is that it is open, you know, it's an invitation to the
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other person to kind of talk about what's there. But it's not, so you're giving them autonomy, and
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you're giving them status, and you're giving them stuff that neuroscience proves keeps people more
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engaged, and more honest in this conversation. But you're not saying to them, so just tell me
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anything you want. You're actually saying, tell me the thing that's exciting you, or worrying you,
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or kind of consuming you at the moment. Let's go there. Let's talk about something real. Because
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in the context of organizational life, we say this, if you can't coach in 10 minutes or less,
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you do not have time to coach. And what that means is you have to get into the real conversation fast.
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And that kickstart question, what's on your mind is a really powerful way to do just that.
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So would you say like, I mean, what's on your mind is, it's pretty open. I mean, they could just say,
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well, I got this going on at home, blah, blah, blah. I mean, would you, could you just kind of
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funnel in the direction, like what's on your mind about X project? Or is that something you could do to
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sort of guide the conversation? Because I can see people who were asked, what's on your mind,
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they just vomit out a whole bunch of stuff that's hard to suss out.
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Yeah, that's true. So I think often if you're meeting somebody, the context often arrives with
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it. You know, somebody comes into a meeting, I mean, I had a call the other day with somebody I'd
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never met before. And she's like, she just said in her email, I just want to talk about this book I'm
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writing. I'm having some difficulty with it. Can we have a quick chat? I was like, sure. I don't know
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who you are, but let's have a quick chat about it. And so she calls me up, we do two minutes,
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more talk. Hey, we know each other through Laurel. Isn't she awesome? She is awesome.
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I tell her I've read her previous book. It was awesome. So it's lots of nice sort of kind of
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connection. But then I'm like, okay, so you're talking about your current book. So what's on your
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mind? And even though she told me some of the stuff that was going on for her, I didn't presume
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that that was it. I didn't presume that that's what she wanted to talk about. I opened the floor
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to her and I said, what's going on, what's on your mind? And that was what got us from the surface into
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a deeper conversation almost immediately. Okay. So it's, again, you're staying curious. You're not,
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you're not going in with any assumptions. You got it.
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But then also in that section about asking what's on your mind, you wrote about, you know,
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sometimes it can be useful to distinguish between projects, people, and patterns when you're going
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through that. I mean, so how, what do you mean by projects, people, and patterns and how can that be
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useful? Yeah. So I created this as a little model just to help people go, these may be doorways into
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a conversation because let's take the friend I was talking to about the book. And I said, so what's
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on your mind? And she goes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And what I'm holding in
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my head is going, look, there are three different things that she could hit upon. One is the project
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itself. And in this case, it's how do I write a damn book? It's the thing that needs to be get done.
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It's the task. It's the collection of tasks. It's the outcome that you're working towards.
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And often if you ask what's on your mind, that's the easiest place for people to start because it's
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kind of external to them. It's like, here it is. Let me point you. Let me point you at the folder
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that is the source of my frustration and pain and annoyance right now. So that's useful.
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But in my head, I'm going, you know, there's often stuff about the people involved as well.
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So I could ask this friend, okay, so got that about the project and why that's frustrating,
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writing the book. How about the people? What's in your mind around what's going on with the people
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involved in this? And she could be going, oh, my editor, my designer, my roommate, my this, my that,
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all of that gets entangled. And that is pretty interesting as well. In fact, it often goes a
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little deeper because now we're talking about relationships.
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And then the third and final one, Brett, is about patterns. And it's about your own patterns
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of behavior that might be getting in the way. So if we wanted to go deeper into that conversation
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about so, you know, in terms of your own patterns, what's showing up here? She's like, oh, I've had,
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I'm a lifetime procrastinator. Oh, I don't like confrontation. Oh, I avoid that. I avoid the hard,
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great work if I'm trying to do it. Who knows? I mean, I'm just making all this stuff up.
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So it's a way of potentially deepening or expanding the conversation just to make sure that you're
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getting into the real stuff. Okay. And then does that work as a model for you?
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No, that, yeah, that's perfect. I love it. And, but even then, so you got this information. I think
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most people would be like, okay, thanks for telling me that here's what you need to do. Um, but you say
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that that shouldn't be the next thing that comes out of your mouth. Um, you should follow up with
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another question. What is that question? That's right. Well, you could follow up with any number
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of questions, but I think that one of the questions that can be really helpful for you
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is first of all, to do what Brett's beautifully articulated, which is to notice the surge within
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that says you should tell this person what to do because we all have it. It's a natural reaction.
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And you're like, Oh man, well now I understand what the real chat. Now I know what's going
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on for you. Okay. Well, let me give you some advice. But the truth is you don't really know
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what's going on yet. You've heard the kind of the opening lines, but the key inside to
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remember is that the first challenge is almost never the real challenge. So this is exactly
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what happened with this conversation with his author. I said, so what's on your mind? And
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she kind of went blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was like, wow,
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there's a lot going on here. And then I asked this next question, the one question you're
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asking about, which we call the focus question. And the focus question is this. So what's the
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real challenge here for you? What's the real challenge here for you? And the way that question
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is written or spoken really does matter because I could have said, so what's the challenge here?
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And I would have got an answer. It would have been an okay answer, but can we kind of firing
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from the hip? This is what the challenge is. I could upgrade that question and say, what's
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the real challenge here? And can you see how that already makes people have to work a little
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bit harder to figure out what's really going on for them? What's the real challenge here?
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But actually the way I, the final version of this question, what's the real challenge here
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for you? Adding for you is when the spotlight kind of swings from the challenge at hand to the person
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who's dealing with the challenge. And that's when the conversation can get a little deeper,
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a little more personal, a little more profound. So that can be a great question to follow up.
00:22:38.060
Right. Because that forces them to think about what, well, what can they do about, I mean,
00:22:43.340
maybe I would start thinking like, what can I do about these problems? A lot of the stuff when
00:22:47.360
you're writing a book, you really don't have much control over. But when you think about, okay,
00:22:51.720
what's the challenge for me, that kind of puts things back in the locus of your control.
00:22:56.600
Right. Exactly. And it also helps you move away from thinking about how do I blame others?
00:23:05.980
Because it's like easy to go, okay, I'm just going to blame Brett now for an hour and a half
00:23:10.620
to go. And what's the real challenge here for you? Well, it's not about
00:23:14.240
Brett or whoever else the other person is. It's actually about how do you deal with that person?
00:23:19.520
So it does, just as you perfectly said, swing the locus of the conversation back to the locus of
00:23:26.380
control. What are you up against? Not what's going on over there, but what are you up against right
00:23:31.680
now? What's the real challenge here for you? And now we can actually tackle
00:23:35.800
something that's real and tangible. Right. And even then, after the person has
00:23:40.300
begun to untangle what the real challenge is for them, you argue that you should follow up with the
00:23:46.700
question, and what else? Right. Because again, now they've told you what the real challenge is.
00:23:53.420
Now, the advice monster within that desperate need to tell people what to do, now it's alive.
00:23:59.960
You're like, oh, look how awesome I was. I asked them what's on their mind. Now I asked
00:24:04.580
them what's the real challenge here. Wow. Now I know what the real challenge is. Wow. My advice
00:24:09.260
is going to be fantastic. But actually, again, you probably haven't really heard what the real
00:24:13.840
challenge is. You probably heard a version of it or their first guess or sometimes something
00:24:19.420
completely different. So then you go, great. Okay. I got that. What else is a real challenge?
00:24:24.440
What else is a real challenge here for you? And then whatever the answer to that, you could follow
00:24:29.520
it up again by going, okay, so what else? What else is a real challenge here for you?
00:24:35.280
And then if you lean in one final time and go, okay, Brett, a lot going on here. Now you see all of
00:24:41.960
that. What's the real challenge here for you? I can promise you that almost nine times out of 10,
00:24:48.960
the answer to that second question, what's the real challenge here for you? It's going to be
00:24:53.520
different from their answer to the first time. What's the real challenge here for you? Different
00:24:59.560
and deeper and more personal. And that has a double impact. The first impact is this. It tells you that
00:25:06.680
if you were trying to solve the first problem, you'd be solving the wrong problem. Secondly, you need to
00:25:12.540
know that your advice actually isn't nearly as good as you actually think it is. So not only are you
00:25:18.140
solving the wrong problem, but you're trying to do so by offering up slightly useless advice.
00:25:23.300
So this is not a great way to show up in the world, the person who solves the wrong problem with not
00:25:28.200
very good advice. And just staying that little bit curious for a little bit longer just allows the
00:25:34.160
real challenge to actually evolve and show up. Yeah, I love that. It reminds me, I have a professor
00:25:40.160
friend who says, you have to ask a question three times to get a good answer from somebody.
00:25:45.720
I reckon there's some truth in that. Yeah. And he'll do that with his students. He won't say
00:25:50.640
the same thing over and over again, but he'll phrase it differently. And he says it every time
00:25:54.780
I do that. The first, the last answer I get is always better and always different from the first
00:26:00.480
answer they gave. I'm just hoping you're not going to apply that to us in this, this interview
00:26:04.920
right now. Right. I'm going to do it right now. And what else? Yeah, exactly. Michael. But I think
00:26:11.460
it's interesting too, that when you're asking these questions or when you're asking about the
00:26:16.740
problems of what's on their mind, you're not asking why, why is that a problem for you? You're
00:26:21.800
asking what is the problem? So I mean, why is it important to, I'm asking a why question. So why should
00:26:28.880
you stick to what questions and not do the why questions? How does that, how does that give you
00:26:33.820
different results? Yeah. Well, it could, you could ask me what's the trap in asking why questions?
00:26:40.100
There you go. So you're a pro at this. I'm a pro at it. Exactly. So I love that you brought this up
00:26:45.200
because it's something I bang on about in the book a little bit. And the first thing to say is there
00:26:50.440
are times when the why question can be really powerful. Lots of people have heard of the, the practice
00:26:56.540
known as the five whys. You know, somebody goes, I want to do this. And you go, well, why? And they
0.75
00:27:02.980
go, well, because of this. And you go, well, why? And then they go, well, okay, because of this. And
00:27:07.540
they go, well, why? And it's a way of quite powerfully getting to kind of some deep rooted
00:27:12.740
motivation. Perfect in certain circumstances. But for most of us, normal, normally in everyday
00:27:19.720
interactions, everyday conversations, the why question can be a bit of a trap. And I think it's got
00:27:26.360
two things about it that can lead people astray, make them less effective in their conversation.
00:27:32.380
And the first is this, simply to say, it is really hard to ask the why question without
00:27:38.240
it sounding slightly judgmental. You know, because why, why are you doing this? So often
00:27:44.700
comes across as, why the hell are you doing this?
00:27:48.320
Yeah. I do that with my kids a lot. And when I do it, I kind of like, that was a dumb question
00:27:53.000
to ask. Right. Well, you see what, what they're often, what you're actually asking people to
00:27:58.540
do is often justify. And now they're defensive. And now they're actually in the kind of lizard
00:28:04.840
brain, amygdala, fight or flight thing. And you've kind of lost the good heart of the conversation.
00:28:11.780
So that's the first reason. The second reason is more subtle. And it's this, when you ask
00:28:18.880
why, too often you're asking that not for your, not for the other person's sake, but for your
00:28:27.420
sake. Because here's what's going on in your head, kind of consciously or not. If I just find
00:28:33.580
out more details about what's going on with this issue, I'll be able to tell them what to
00:28:39.540
do. So the why question is about you gathering data rather than actually helping the other person
00:28:48.100
explore what's really going on. And if you, if you agree with the principle of the book and part of
00:28:54.640
one of the principles of the book is become a lazy coach, you know, stop working so hard. So you can
00:29:00.560
let the other person find their own path. You realize that actually asking why it just makes you work
00:29:06.660
harder because you're trying to solve the problem for them. And actually you might want to shift out
00:29:11.940
of that to say, what if I help you solve your own problem?
00:29:14.640
So I mean, what kind of other, what questions could you ask to help that process along? So,
00:29:19.960
you know, we've asked what's on your mind? What's the real challenge for you? What else? I mean,
00:29:25.480
are there other, what questions that could be helpful along this process? Like questions,
00:29:30.180
like what questions you would ask instead of saying, asking why?
00:29:32.920
Yeah. So I would, I would ask questions like, um, so what's at the heart of that? Um,
00:29:41.000
what's your best guess at why you took that path? Um, what was your thinking that made you react like
00:29:52.280
that? Um, and you know, they're, they're just subtle variations on that, but I do think that the,
00:29:59.360
by asking them, what was your, what was your thinking in working through that path? It's
00:30:05.720
actually valuable for the other person to figure out their thinking. So that's actually in service
00:30:09.960
of the other person. Right. I think it's better than why, because why will kind of muddle things
00:30:14.560
up and what forces the person to get kind of analytical about their thinking process?
00:30:19.740
Right. Yeah. So, you know, with everything I say on this podcast and in the book,
00:30:26.100
none of it is a definitive hard and fast that thou shalt not, because you can always find a reason
00:30:32.540
when, you know, asking why, for instance, might be a really smart thing to do. But, um, as a
00:30:38.200
principle, I certainly have gone, look, the simpler I can make this whole idea of coaching,
00:30:44.440
the better, you know, that's the goal of the book. The book was to go, what's the shortest book I
00:30:48.200
could write that would still be useful? What's the simplest way I can frame coaching that would
00:30:52.760
be useful? You know, it boils down to here's a habit, here's an understanding of a habit and a
00:30:57.440
habit formula. Here's seven great questions that will take you solidly down the path nine times out
00:31:03.800
of 10. And in doing that, you know, there's a quote from Einstein. He's like, things should be as
00:31:09.740
simple as possible and no simpler. So what I'm trying to do is go, look, here's something else you
00:31:15.560
might be able to eliminate from your regular conversation that will make it more powerful
00:31:19.740
and less effortful. Um, so we've been trying to, we've been trying to stave off the, the advice
00:31:28.440
monster as much as we can by asking these questions, but is there any, is there ever a moment, uh, when
00:31:33.740
you should step in and be like, here's what you need to do? Here's some advice, straightforward advice.
00:31:38.020
Yeah. Lots of times. Um, you know, there's a, there's a, uh, a Harvard business review by a guy
00:31:46.440
called Daniel Goleman. And Daniel Goleman is the, one of the kind of the guy who popularized emotional
00:31:51.180
intelligence. And he wrote a book based on this article as well, which I can't quite remember the
00:31:56.340
name of, might be primitive leadership or something like that. Anyway, he says, look, there are six
00:32:01.380
different styles of leadership. Um, there's a kind of pace setting one. There's a democratic one.
00:32:07.580
There's coaching. There's a few others as well. And great leaders actually know how to use all six
00:32:14.560
styles at the appropriate time in the appropriate way, because every style has its advantages and its
00:32:20.080
disadvantages. Coaching happens to be the least utilized of those leadership skills, even though it
00:32:27.060
has, you know, a range of great impacts, including on engagement and on the bottom line. But you know,
00:32:33.220
if the, if the building is burning down and Brett goes, Oh my God, Michael, the building's built,
00:32:39.520
burning down. It's not useful for me to go, Brett, how are you feeling about the building burning down?
00:32:46.320
And what else? Yeah. And what else is burning? Exactly. It's like, there's nothing useful about that at
00:32:51.580
all. It is. And part of your job, if you're in an organization is actually to bring your expertise
00:32:58.660
and experience to the forefront and use it in a wise way. And that's why we define coaching, not as
00:33:05.480
uh, never give anybody advice. It is simply, how do you stay curious just a little bit longer?
00:33:12.140
How do you rush to action and advice just a little bit slower? So it's a really specific
00:33:17.840
habit, you know, something that people can take away right away. You know, when somebody comes up
00:33:22.960
to you and goes, Hey, Michael, how do I, how do I do X? Here's my kind of habitual response. I'll go,
00:33:30.960
look, I've got some, I've got some thoughts on how to do that. And I'm going to share them with you for
00:33:35.740
sure. But before I tell you how I'd approach it, let me ask you, what, what are your first thoughts
00:33:40.680
on how to take that on? And whatever they say, I'm going to nod my head and probably agree with
00:33:46.040
them. And I'll go, I love it. What else could you do? And then what else could you do? And this is
00:33:51.560
great. Is there anything else you could do? Fantastic. I don't know. Is there, is there one
00:33:55.700
other thing you could do potentially to approach this? And so now they've actually gone through
00:33:59.880
the hard work of generating their own ideas and their own possibilities. But I may just go, so look,
00:34:05.600
I love all of those ideas. Let me give you one or two that occurred to me as you're saying this,
00:34:09.480
you could also do this and you could also do that. So there you go. You've got like five or six or
00:34:14.380
seven good ideas here. Um, which one do you like here? Which one, which one might you act on? You
00:34:19.060
know, which one do you want to put into play? So use advice, but use it a little slower than you
00:34:27.700
currently do because at the moment you over advise, you advise too quickly. And it means, as we said
00:34:34.140
before, you're, you're so often serving up not very good advice to solve what's probably not the real
00:34:39.840
problem. Right. And also think just giving the advice or making someone work to figure out the
00:34:45.260
problem themselves, they're more likely to act on it. Right. It's like whose advice, whose idea am I
00:34:50.900
likely to follow? The idea that my boss told me to do or the idea I came up for by myself? Well,
00:34:57.600
the actual answer is the idea you came up by yourself. Cause if I came up with it by myself,
00:35:00.940
I'm like, that's gotta be a pretty good idea. I thought of it. And if it was boss, you're like,
00:35:05.980
that's awesome. I don't need to tell him that idea. Cause they thought of it themselves. I get
00:35:09.860
to tell him a few other things and add value that way. Yeah. And cause I've noticed that in my own
00:35:14.560
life, you know, I've had experiences where people will come to me and ask like, Hey, can I have coffee
00:35:19.220
with you? Or I can ask you like how to start a blog. And I've done that in the past. And before I
00:35:23.880
would just kind of like do a dump, like, here's everything I did, yada, yada, yada. And then I would
00:35:28.520
follow up and be like, Hey, so what's going on with it? And they haven't done anything. And I think
00:35:32.700
there's two things going on there. Um, one is that they didn't have to work for it. Right. So
00:35:37.440
they didn't were able to internalize that. And also the advice I gave probably wasn't very useful
00:35:42.580
because when I started, my website was back in 2008 and the whole landscape is completely different
00:35:49.140
from what it is now. And so it's, I probably wasn't offering productive advice.
00:35:54.700
That may be the case. I mean, there may be, um, you know, who knows? Cause I've had,
00:36:02.080
I've had a thousand of those conversations as well. And, you know, honestly, they probably had
00:36:05.960
a similar result. Um, sometime people just don't want to act on, on stuff. They're like talking to
00:36:12.740
people about starting a blog is almost the same as actually starting a blog. And actually now I've
00:36:17.300
spoken to Brett, I realized how hard he works to make that successful. Huh? Now I'm even less
00:36:23.120
interested, but it's interesting. If they're like, so, you know, if they come to you and go, how do you
00:36:27.400
start a blog? And rather than launching into advice, you go, well, let me ask you, uh,
00:36:33.880
what's your objectives for the blog and how committed are you to, to creating a blog and
00:36:40.800
what's the real challenge here for you? Do you think in, in, in creating this blog and what else
00:36:46.060
is a challenge for you and what else? And so what's the real challenge at the heart of,
00:36:50.540
of getting going on a blog for you? Okay. Now you see the real challenge. You know,
00:36:55.860
what are your own ideas about how to actually tackle that and take that on? Great. And so I
00:37:00.640
love what you're thinking. Let me give you one or two pieces of ideas that I've learned from
00:37:04.460
starting a blog that might help you with that particular challenge. And it's actually a faster
00:37:10.000
conversation and it might be more to the point. Yeah. And so, I mean, these conversations can
00:37:14.760
happen quickly. I mean, how long did the conversation that you had with the lady about
00:37:19.080
her book, how long, how long did that take? Yeah. I'm going to say that the, the heart of it
00:37:23.680
was a 10 minutes. I mean, it can't have been very long cause I was sitting in an airport waiting to
00:37:28.420
catch a plane. So I didn't have a whole lot of time for this, but you're able to get something
00:37:32.820
productive for it. She's able to hone in on something and yeah. So we got to what I would
00:37:39.160
say is the heart of her issue. And then I was able to say, you know what? Um, this isn't actually
00:37:47.620
something that I'm that good at working on. I don't have that much information about it,
00:37:52.080
but let me give you the name of one or two or two people. It'd be really great resources for you
00:37:56.480
here. So I got to offer advice, but if we'd started where she wanted to start, I'd have given her
00:38:04.140
advice on something completely different. As it was, the, the conversation deepened and shifted,
00:38:12.220
became a bit more personal. And we got to something that was really kind of the bigger block,
00:38:17.560
the bigger issues she wanted to take on. And, you know, let's go to ending. Like,
00:38:23.360
so we're not going to call these conversations, I'm going to call it conversations, coaching
00:38:26.620
sessions just for a verbal place. Yeah. Shorthand. Yeah. Shorthand. Um, but an important part of
00:38:32.040
coaching is the followup, right? To ensure that, you know, what you've talked about or discussed
00:38:37.180
with your person, it's actually done. So how should, is there something you should, like a question
00:38:42.140
you should ask or something you should say at the end of this to, to ensure there's some
00:38:45.780
followup on what was discussed? Well, again, I'm going to, I'm going to say often followup
00:38:52.020
is an important part of coaching, but not always. Um, so it depends a little on the relationship
00:38:57.320
and the person and the, and what the context and what's going on. So for the woman I spoke to that
00:39:04.380
I've been talking about as I kind of thread through the story, there's no followup. Um, I'm at the end
00:39:11.120
of that. I said, is there anything, any other thing else I can help you with? She's like, no,
00:39:15.520
I've got what I need. I'm like, fantastic. Good luck. Bon voyage. And you know, I sent her
00:39:21.580
introductions to two people who I mentioned on the phone and then my work here was done.
00:39:27.680
Part of the nuance here is, is this. So one of the core principles and in the book and in the
00:39:36.900
programs we have is, you know, we'd say be lazy, which is really meant to be provocative because
00:39:42.780
lots of people aren't lazy. The people who listen to podcasts like yours, Brett, aren't lazy people
00:39:47.120
because they're keen, they're enthusiastic. They're trying to live better lives, but we often overwork
00:39:52.760
that to the detriment of our own lives and to the detriment of those that we run, we lead and we
00:39:57.080
influence. And one of the challenges with saying my job is to hold you accountable is that I've now made
00:40:04.380
it my job to check up on you. And sometimes that's great. Sometimes it turns into this weird policing
00:40:14.140
parental surveillance thing, which doesn't help anybody makes it kind of a burden to me and it
00:40:21.200
makes it a burden to you as well. So one of the things that I'll often ask at the end of a conversation,
00:40:28.800
I'll ask a couple of things. One is I'll often ask what we call in the book, the learning question,
00:40:33.900
where I get to go, hey, what was most useful and most valuable for you from this conversation?
00:40:39.740
So what that does is it forces somebody to kind of extract the value, get the aha moment that they
00:40:44.760
might otherwise miss. But the other thing I'll do is I'll go, so what else do you want from me,
00:40:50.580
if anything? How else can I help, if at all? And sometimes I'll make a request and sometimes I'll say,
00:40:56.840
you know, I've got what I need. And I'm like, that's fantastic. If it's somebody with a more specific
00:41:03.040
kind of relationship with me, like somebody on my team, for instance, I'll still ask them,
00:41:08.620
so what else do you want from me, if anything? And after they've told me, I'll go, okay, great.
00:41:15.060
So here's what I want from you. I'd like to see your first thoughts on this plan by Wednesday next
00:41:21.060
week. So I'll set a kind of objective that I'm looking for. Don't take on the burden of I need to
00:41:27.260
hold everybody else accountable because that can become a very heavy burden very quickly.
00:41:31.940
Definitely. My next question is related to that. You know, the sort of the system you've set up,
00:41:38.440
again, it's not sort of ironclad, but it's a great working system to use and fall back on.
00:41:43.260
It's easy and it can make coaching very easy. And it's so easy that I can see like you wanting to do
00:41:49.340
it all the time, right? And help as many people as you can. But again, that can be a burden. Like
00:41:55.340
you can overextend yourself. So how do you manage wanting to coach, wanting to help without
00:42:01.640
overextending yourself where it's bad for you and bad for the people you're trying to coach?
00:42:07.080
Yeah, it's another great, great question. The first thing to say is often a coach-like approach
00:42:13.620
can actually mean that you can manage more because you're not taking on everybody else's work for them.
00:42:19.340
And one of the burdens lots of people have is I feel like I'm responsible for my work and other
00:42:23.400
people's work as well. And that can be kind of quite crushing. And this frees you from that.
00:42:29.640
So that's the first thing to say, which is sometimes you actually, you can work with a lighter touch,
00:42:34.600
but with greater clarity and greater kind of structure and systems in place.
00:42:40.480
And then the other piece is going, you know, you get a yet another email going,
00:42:46.320
Brett, you're awesome. I love your podcast. Can you tell me how to set up a podcast, please?
00:42:52.280
And you're torn because you're a nice guy. You want to serve the world. Part of you goes,
00:42:58.140
yeah, I'll grab another coffee with you. Part of you goes, man, this is my ninth cup of coffee
00:43:03.220
in the last three days. A, I'm over-caffeinated. B, I seem to be giving a lot. And other people seem
00:43:11.200
to be taking a lot and it doesn't seem to be nourishing me. I'm making that up about you,
00:43:16.280
Brett, but you know, I've just put that out there. Sure. I've been there. Yeah.
00:43:20.140
Yeah. So I am really influenced by a writer called Adam Grant. He wrote a book called Give and Take.
00:43:29.440
He's got a new book out called The Originals, which is good without quite having the same impact on me
00:43:35.680
as that book Give and Take. And he says, look, there are actually three different ways you can
00:43:41.160
show up in the world. You know, it's a model. All models are wrong. Some are useful. He says,
00:43:46.680
look, you can be a giver. You can be a taker. Or you can be a, gosh, I've forgotten the label.
00:43:53.320
Basically, a reciprocity. You scratch my back, I'll scratch your back. And here's what he found.
00:43:59.660
He found that, after doing a ton of research, because his stuff is all research-based,
00:44:05.480
he found that in all sorts of different sectors and different roles and different jobs,
00:44:10.640
the people who failed most spectacularly at those jobs are in the bottom 10, 20 percent,
00:44:16.720
tended to be the givers. Because they tend to be the givers who had poor boundaries. So they would
00:44:23.220
deplete themselves. They'd become overwhelmed. They would give without realizing the price that they
00:44:29.380
were paying. And they wouldn't be able to do their own work or get what they wanted.
00:44:34.080
So actually, it's like, you know, you kind of, you suffer as a giver. But then here's the twist.
00:44:39.120
He also found that the people at the very top performers in those roles and in the sectors or
00:44:43.960
wherever, they too were the givers. But it was a different type of giving. It's a giving that went,
00:44:49.580
look, I will give as much as I can, but not in a way that will deplete me, overwhelm me,
00:44:56.000
ruin me. I'll give in a way that, or I'm not necessarily giving away that goes, I'm only
00:45:02.300
giving this because I'm pretty sure that you're going to give me something back in the next day
00:45:05.720
or week or whatever. It's giving kind of in that I'm putting out good stuff out to the universe.
00:45:12.280
I'm looking after myself and I'm making sure that I take what I need and I look after myself as well.
00:45:19.280
And all of this is a long, long answer to your question about how do you not become overwhelmed
00:45:24.200
if you're wanting to coach and support people? And the answer is you've got to figure out
00:45:27.880
what you want and what that means in terms of what your boundaries are, what you can and can't do.
00:45:34.780
And it comes down to actually, again, one of the questions we mentioned in the book,
00:45:38.040
we call it the strategic question, which is, what are you going to say no to?
00:45:42.500
So you can truly say yes to the stuff that you care most about.
00:45:45.600
Because as an example, again, made up example, but we're just kind of combining fiction with fact.
00:45:53.940
Every time you go out and have a coffee with somebody and spend an hour talking to them about
00:45:58.580
a blog or a podcast is an hour you don't get to do your great work in this world.
00:46:05.440
And sure, you serve somebody and you help somebody out in that coffee.
00:46:09.720
But is that the best way for you to have the impact you want to have in the world?
00:46:19.040
And the answer may be, yeah, it may be, yes, that is.
00:46:22.940
But for me anyway, what I discovered is at a certain point, I was feeling that wasn't.
00:46:28.760
And actually, the price I was paying for having coffee with somebody
00:46:31.860
was that I wasn't getting to write my book or whatever it might be.
00:46:36.340
Right. And that's a tough question to figure to answer.
00:46:41.640
Well, Michael, this has been a great conversation.
00:46:43.760
Where can people find out more about the book and the rest of your work?
00:46:50.320
So look, if you're interested in the book, obviously, it's available on Amazon and all
00:47:00.940
It has information about the book and there's a ton of free resources, videos and downloads
00:47:08.220
So regardless of whether you want to get the book or not, please do go to the website and
00:47:14.480
If you're kind enough to pick up a copy of the book and good enough to even read it, then
00:47:18.960
my request, if I may be bold, is to say a review on Amazon is always really appreciated.
00:47:25.540
I've got an audacious goal to get to a thousand reviews on Amazon.com.
00:47:29.860
And so if you had a chance to read it and are so inclined, a review there would be really
00:47:36.440
And if you're interested in the box of crayons kind of training programs, which we bring into
00:47:40.980
large organizations typically, then boxofcrayons, all one word, .biz, B-I-Z or B-I-Z, depending
00:47:55.700
My guest today was Michael Bungai-Stenger and his book is The Coaching Habits, available
00:48:01.020
You can also find more information about Michael's work at boxofcrayons.biz.
00:48:05.080
Also check out the show notes at aom.is slash coaching habit, where you can find links to
00:48:08.900
resources where you can delve deeper into this topic.
00:48:21.820
Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:48:25.100
For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at
00:48:29.120
Our show is edited by Creative Audio Lab here in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
00:48:32.080
If you have any audio editing needs or audio production needs, check them out at creativeaudiolab.com.
00:48:36.900
As always, we appreciate your continued support.
00:48:38.620
Reviews on iTunes or Stitcher really helps us out.
00:48:42.140
And until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.