The Art of Manliness - #264： How to Coach People in Business, Sports, and Life

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. So whether

00:00:18.160 you're a parent, a manager or a mentor, we all have to coach people at some point in

00:00:22.060 our life. But how do you coach in a way that makes the recipient receptive to your feedback

00:00:26.680 but doesn't take up too much of your time and energy? Well, my guest today has spent his

00:00:30.500 career coaching managers on how to be better leaders at work and he's distilled his knowledge

00:00:34.560 on how to coach effectively in his latest book. His name is Michael Bungay Stanger and

00:00:38.040 his book is The Coaching Habit. And today on the show, Michael and I discuss how effective

00:00:41.820 coaching requires you to talk less and ask more questions. And then Michael walks us through

00:00:47.180 the exact questions you should ask when coaching someone that will guide them to the answer

00:00:52.100 they need to make their needed improvement. This works across domains, whether you're a

00:00:55.300 parent, a business, even if you're a sports coach, this stuff will work. A lot of actionable

00:00:59.140 advice. Make sure to check out the show notes at aom.is slash coaching habit after the show's

00:01:03.420 over where you can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:01:11.280 Michael Bungay Stanger, welcome to the show.

00:01:14.140 It is very good to be here. Thanks for having me, Brett.

00:01:17.160 So you've written several books. Your latest book is called The Coaching Habit and it's all

00:01:21.860 about providing coaching in a work setting, but I think it could apply in other ways too in your

00:01:27.680 personal life or if you're a coach of a sports team. But let's focus on the business aspect

00:01:33.760 because I think people who are listening, they're either a manager or they're a leader of some sort

00:01:39.340 of their job where they have to provide coaching or training to their employees.

00:01:43.640 Sure.

00:01:44.920 And you highlight research in your book that shows that leaders and managers who regularly take part

00:01:49.880 in coaching create a markedly positive impact on the company's performance and profitability.

00:01:55.820 Yet at the same time, most leaders and managers don't make time for coaching.

00:02:01.740 So why is it that disconnect there? Like they know it's good, but they don't.

00:02:05.360 Exactly. So you've seen that research that says most people have found that if you do exercise,

00:02:11.020 you're markedly better in your life. And yet, if you eat well, you have a markedly improved life.

00:02:16.940 And yet, so partly we're just dealing with that, that human nature piece, which is around,

00:02:22.420 we have habits. It's hard to shift out of habits, even when we know we're good. I mean,

00:02:27.600 one of the most telling pieces of research I saw about just how hard it is to shift out of old ways

00:02:33.560 of behaving. I think I read this in the Fast Company magazine some years ago. Look, people with 1.00

00:02:39.340 serious heart disease, not chronic, actually critical heart disease. And they have this kind of

00:02:45.600 operation that effectively saves their lives. And the doctor says, look, operation, it stopped you

00:02:51.080 dying immediately, but it's not going to stop you dying unless you actually change the way you live

00:02:55.440 your life. And I think that the number was only one in eight was able to change their lifestyle

00:03:03.480 so as to live a healthier life. And so, I mean, this is literally a matter of life and death,

00:03:08.880 and people find it really hard to shift out of the way that they're working.

00:03:12.560 So the first thing I'd say, Brett, is this, that, you know, you're right, that the person I had in

00:03:19.100 mind when I wrote this was a busy manager, probably keen to do their job, trying to do their best,

00:03:25.620 feeling a bit overwhelmed, feeling that the team isn't perhaps hitting their peak, and maybe they're

00:03:29.680 not hitting their peak. How do you help people be more coach-like? But truthfully, this is the stuff

00:03:36.420 in the book and the stuff we're going to talk about is just useful if you interact with other human

00:03:40.680 beings. If you deal with other human beings, this is going to help you. But why is it so hard

00:03:46.580 to be more coach-like? And I'm trying to distinguish the difference between being a coach,

00:03:52.720 which, you know, lots of people just don't want to do, and being more coach-like, which could

00:03:56.940 actually help pretty much everybody. And when I define this, it's pretty simple stuff. You know,

00:04:02.700 I would say being more coach-like is simply, how do you stay curious just a little bit longer?

00:04:09.600 How do you rush to action and advice just a little bit slower? Because the truth of the matter is,

00:04:15.700 most of us are advice-giving maniacs. I mean, we love it. You know, it's like, I don't even know what

00:04:23.040 the problem is, Brett, but I've already got some initial ideas about how you should be doing things

00:04:26.840 differently. It's really just a deep habit in terms of the way we show up. Because honestly,

00:04:33.360 for most of our life, we've been praised and paid and promoted to have the answers, to know what's

00:04:40.280 going on, to stay in control. And that shift from curiosity, which is, you know, if you have a few

00:04:46.020 good questions, and you have the way and means to make them into asking them into a habit, that shift

00:04:51.960 sounds simple, but it's actually trickier than you'd think. Yeah. I mean, that's a long answer

00:04:57.000 to your question, but does that give you a sense of what we're talking about? Yeah, it does. And I

00:05:00.560 like the distinction between being a coach and being coach-like. Because I think when most people

00:05:04.000 think being a coach, I think like this guy barking orders, doing this, but coach-like is more of a

00:05:10.320 mindset where you're looking at people where there are and trying to help them find answers or

00:05:17.020 solutions themselves. Yeah. Working with them. Well, what I love is that when you say people

00:05:21.580 think, you know, be coach, be a coach, they go to two different paths. One is the classic sports

00:05:27.620 coach, you know, with the whistle, drop and give me 20, sort of shouting orders. The other is kind

00:05:32.580 of vanishing into the kind of Californian hippie therapy incest. Life coach. Pastel colored life

00:05:40.000 coaching stuff. And honestly, people can look at both of those options and go, I am not the least bit

00:05:45.360 interested in either of those two stereotypes. Obviously the truth is there are plenty of sports

00:05:51.500 coaches that are fantastic. There are plenty of life coaches that are fantastic. But it is a

00:05:55.900 distinction to say, look, just forget being a coach, just be more coach-like, just stay curious

00:06:00.680 just a little bit longer. Even if there's coaching or mentorship programs in place at an office,

00:06:07.900 most employees report that it's not very good. They'd rather like not have it. So what's wrong with

00:06:14.640 the way, the way most companies or managers go about coaching?

00:06:19.280 Yeah, it's, it's a bit of a dilemma. I mean, the, the research pointed out that I think as close to

00:06:24.620 75% of managers said that they had some form of training. Now, who knows what that means? It could

00:06:31.000 be, you know, he's had to be an active listener. He's, he's my theory on coaching, whatever it might be.

00:06:36.080 But it really didn't seem to translate into impact in the workplace. Um, in fact, in that study,

00:06:43.800 10% of people said that the coaching was actually having a negative effect on their impact and on

00:06:50.220 their enthusiasm for the job. And I was just like, man, there must be, there must be a tough

00:06:55.720 conversation to be part of, you know, come into my office, Brett, because my plan is to demotivate

00:07:01.000 you by coaching you some. Um, so what, why doesn't it work? Well, I think part of it is

00:07:07.700 potentially a way that people are taught coaching and, you know, I, I'm, I have a bias in saying this

00:07:15.220 because, you know, my company box of crayons, we make our money by training people to be more coach

00:07:20.340 like. So, you know, I, I have a, I have a biased opinion about why coach training doesn't work.

00:07:26.780 Um, but often there's not a great deal of translation from theory and models and abstractness

00:07:34.920 to practical tools. And I think that's probably one of the biggest gaps, which is people just find it

00:07:40.500 hard to, to move from the classroom and go back into their day-to-day work to be more coach-like.

00:07:48.300 Um, and I just think that, you know, in many organizations, what coaching is set up to be

00:07:53.820 is an occasional intervention. Like, okay, Brett, it's the, it's the first of the month,

00:08:01.300 first Monday of the month, come into my office. We're going to have our coaching session.

00:08:06.000 And honestly, you know, your heart drops when you hear that you're like, Oh God. Okay. So what's

00:08:11.560 this going to be about this time? And if you're the manager, if you're on the other side of the

00:08:15.200 table, your heart drops, which is like, ah, you know, I'm doing a fine job at managing them, but

00:08:19.760 I'm working with them and supporting them and encouraging them. But apparently I don't have to

00:08:23.440 coach them, whatever that means. And so you have this kind of awkward monthly conversation

00:08:28.960 and both of you are delighted when it's finished. And both of you are delighted that it's a month

00:08:33.560 until you have to go through that a second time. So I think that's the other key thing, which is

00:08:38.740 for us, coaching isn't about the occasional event. It's about understanding that every interaction

00:08:46.440 can be a bit more coach-like. So whether I'm having a meeting with you, whether I'm just

00:08:51.440 bumping into you in the corridor, whether I'm managing by walking about, whether we're even

00:08:55.840 trading emails, I can actually bring a kind of coaching mentality, being more coach-like

00:09:00.600 into that. And in doing so kind of strip back some of that kind of anxiety and formality

00:09:07.080 that sometimes comes with coaching. You know, the metaphor that we like to talk about is saying,

00:09:11.680 look, what we're after is drip irrigation, not the occasional flash flood. And that's really the

00:09:17.740 heart of it. And I think the fact that coaching can feel like the occasional flash flood in many

00:09:22.340 organizations is part of where it goes wrong. Right. And so that hence the name of your book,

00:09:26.500 The Coaching Habit, like coaching for you isn't just a one-time event. It is something you do on a

00:09:31.720 continual basis. You got it. I mean, the first chapter of the book is actually all about the science of

00:09:36.960 habit building because, and you know, honestly, whether you're interested in coaching or not,

00:09:43.340 if you're interested in living a better life, you got to know how habits work because habits are the

00:09:49.680 building blocks of behavior change. So, you know, if not the Coaching Habit book, you know,

00:09:55.560 Charles Duhigg's book called The Power of Habit. If not Duhigg, go to BJ Fogg's website,

00:10:01.300 which is tinyhabits.com. And there's a ton of great resources there. If not BJ Fogg, go to

00:10:07.680 Leo Babauter and Zen Habits and look up stuff there about building new habits. If not Leo Babauter,

00:10:14.320 then Gretchen Rubin. There's a lot of people out there who've written some smart stuff about

00:10:18.240 habit building. And it's really useful if you're looking to live a life which has

00:10:23.460 more impact and more meaning to actually understand how the science of habits work.

00:10:28.140 Right. So, and so basically the coaching habit is developed like any other habit. You just make

00:10:32.280 small changes on a regular basis and the change is going to come slowly, but it will come as you

00:10:37.900 keep digging at it. Right. I mean, it's one of those pernicious things that's out there in the

00:10:43.700 world about, you know, how to build a habit, which is like, just do it for 21 days and you've got a

00:10:47.540 habit. And, you know, sad to say that somebody just made that up and now, and now it's out there

00:10:53.700 on the internet and on the front of magazines and stuff. Um, it takes longer than that typically

00:10:58.440 to build a habit. Um, but you know, there's actually not a set number of days. It depends

00:11:03.360 on the habit. It depends on the person. It depends on the context. Also, all those things play a big

00:11:08.660 role, but yeah, the way you do habit is repeated acts. That's how you build it. You know, in the brain,

00:11:16.440 you know, the, the, the saying in neuroscience is what fires together, wires together. And what

00:11:22.480 they're talking about is they're kind of links between the different neural in the creating new

00:11:27.040 neural pathways in your brain. And the more you walk a certain pathway, the more you repeat a

00:11:31.960 behavior, the more that connection in your brain strengthens. And the more that happens, the more

00:11:38.100 likely it is to become a habit. And in the process you're, you change your, your character changes,

00:11:43.600 is your, I wouldn't say your personality changes, but like, yeah, there's something about your

00:11:47.600 character that changes. That's a great, I mean, that's a, that's a really interesting,

00:11:52.100 elusive question, which is, you know, what are we as human beings? What are we? And you know,

00:11:57.240 are we a collection of our behaviors? Well, you know, the, the, the proof of the pudding is in what we do

00:12:03.740 often, you know, you ask people what they stand for in this world and they can give you an answer

00:12:09.340 or you can look at how they show up in the world and you can figure out what matters to them,

00:12:15.700 what's important to them, what their values are. And you, you can make the comment, you can have the

00:12:21.960 conversation about what matters to me, but really it's like, how are you living your life? What does

00:12:26.180 that tell you about who you are as a man, as a woman, who are you in this world? What does that tell

00:12:31.960 you about what you stand for? And, uh, there's often a pretty big gap between how we see ourselves and

00:12:38.380 what we actually end up doing. Right. It's very Aristotelian. Aristotle thought, you know, we are

00:12:42.540 our actions. Right. We are what we repeatedly do. Right. Yeah. So let's, let's get into the specifics

00:12:48.220 of how to develop this coaching habit. So the whole, just starting a quote unquote coaching

00:12:55.640 conversation can be awkward because I mean, basically you're insinuating to the person,

00:13:00.780 Hey, look, you're not very good at this and you need some help. And a lot of folks, I mean,

00:13:06.620 they can resent that it's natural. Of course you're a bit crappy. Let me, who loves that 0.99

00:13:12.600 conversation? Yes. Not many people. So how can you start off a coaching conversation that's both

00:13:17.220 tactful and will lead to a productive conversation? Well, the first thing I want to do is just reframe

00:13:23.040 your question a little bit, because I don't think a coaching conversation, particularly the way we think

00:13:27.460 about it as a kind of just a daily way of showing up a mindset means that you're implying that somebody's

00:13:34.000 not very good or somebody's failing or somebody's wandered off the path, whatever it might be.

00:13:39.180 Really what you're doing is you're saying, my goal is to help this person move towards fulfilling and

00:13:47.080 expressing their full potential. So how do I do that? And so much around helping them unlock what's

00:13:54.840 already there, helping them. And this is the quote from one of the kind of real influences in the world

00:14:00.400 of coaching. A guy who said John Whitmore, John Whitmore says, you're helping people to learn

00:14:05.500 rather than teaching them. And that's really powerful. Um, because what that gives you is the

00:14:12.120 distinction is it's like, okay, if I want this, if my job as a, as a manager, as a leader, as a parent,

00:14:20.040 as a teacher, as a friend, as a human being, if my job is to help those around me

00:14:25.840 get to the best version of themselves, how do I do that? And often it's about how can you ask the

00:14:33.740 question that helps them have their own aha moment that helps them kind of step up and become the

00:14:40.900 better version of themselves. So all of that just to say, it's not about necessarily the person's

00:14:47.740 somehow screwed up or going wrong or, you know, they're just not very good. It's more about, it's more

00:14:53.700 a self-management tool to say, how do you slow down your desire to tell them what to do? How do

00:14:58.920 you, how do you help them get going on this? And again, another long answer to your question. If

00:15:05.820 anybody's forgotten the question, because it was so long ago, it's like, how do you get going

00:15:09.640 on this conversation? And you're right in the book, we, we talk about seven essential questions.

00:15:17.040 And the very first question of the seven is the kickstart question, because we say it's a great way to

00:15:21.680 start lots of different conversations. And the question is this, what's on your mind? And the

00:15:29.360 reason why that question can be powerful is that it is open, you know, it's an invitation to the

00:15:36.700 other person to kind of talk about what's there. But it's not, so you're giving them autonomy, and

00:15:43.040 you're giving them status, and you're giving them stuff that neuroscience proves keeps people more

00:15:47.700 engaged, and more honest in this conversation. But you're not saying to them, so just tell me

00:15:53.760 anything you want. You're actually saying, tell me the thing that's exciting you, or worrying you,

00:16:00.760 or kind of consuming you at the moment. Let's go there. Let's talk about something real. Because

00:16:07.880 in the context of organizational life, we say this, if you can't coach in 10 minutes or less,

00:16:13.280 you do not have time to coach. And what that means is you have to get into the real conversation fast.

00:16:20.340 And that kickstart question, what's on your mind is a really powerful way to do just that.

00:16:24.820 So would you say like, I mean, what's on your mind is, it's pretty open. I mean, they could just say,

00:16:28.960 well, I got this going on at home, blah, blah, blah. I mean, would you, could you just kind of

00:16:33.800 funnel in the direction, like what's on your mind about X project? Or is that something you could do to

00:16:38.660 sort of guide the conversation? Because I can see people who were asked, what's on your mind,

00:16:41.840 they just vomit out a whole bunch of stuff that's hard to suss out.

00:16:46.300 Yeah, that's true. So I think often if you're meeting somebody, the context often arrives with

00:16:53.360 it. You know, somebody comes into a meeting, I mean, I had a call the other day with somebody I'd

00:16:57.980 never met before. And she's like, she just said in her email, I just want to talk about this book I'm

00:17:02.840 writing. I'm having some difficulty with it. Can we have a quick chat? I was like, sure. I don't know

00:17:08.760 who you are, but let's have a quick chat about it. And so she calls me up, we do two minutes,

00:17:13.380 more talk. Hey, we know each other through Laurel. Isn't she awesome? She is awesome. 0.98

00:17:19.840 I tell her I've read her previous book. It was awesome. So it's lots of nice sort of kind of

00:17:24.440 connection. But then I'm like, okay, so you're talking about your current book. So what's on your

00:17:29.900 mind? And even though she told me some of the stuff that was going on for her, I didn't presume

00:17:37.700 that that was it. I didn't presume that that's what she wanted to talk about. I opened the floor

00:17:41.660 to her and I said, what's going on, what's on your mind? And that was what got us from the surface into

00:17:47.700 a deeper conversation almost immediately. Okay. So it's, again, you're staying curious. You're not,

00:17:53.940 you're not going in with any assumptions. You got it.

00:17:56.280 But then also in that section about asking what's on your mind, you wrote about, you know,

00:18:01.860 sometimes it can be useful to distinguish between projects, people, and patterns when you're going

00:18:08.700 through that. I mean, so how, what do you mean by projects, people, and patterns and how can that be

00:18:13.500 useful? Yeah. So I created this as a little model just to help people go, these may be doorways into

00:18:22.260 a conversation because let's take the friend I was talking to about the book. And I said, so what's

00:18:29.800 on your mind? And she goes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And what I'm holding in

00:18:34.740 my head is going, look, there are three different things that she could hit upon. One is the project

00:18:40.300 itself. And in this case, it's how do I write a damn book? It's the thing that needs to be get done. 0.99

00:18:46.220 It's the task. It's the collection of tasks. It's the outcome that you're working towards.

00:18:52.040 And often if you ask what's on your mind, that's the easiest place for people to start because it's

00:18:56.680 kind of external to them. It's like, here it is. Let me point you. Let me point you at the folder

00:19:00.880 that is the source of my frustration and pain and annoyance right now. So that's useful.

00:19:07.400 But in my head, I'm going, you know, there's often stuff about the people involved as well.

00:19:12.640 So I could ask this friend, okay, so got that about the project and why that's frustrating,

00:19:18.120 writing the book. How about the people? What's in your mind around what's going on with the people

00:19:23.120 involved in this? And she could be going, oh, my editor, my designer, my roommate, my this, my that,

00:19:31.740 all of that gets entangled. And that is pretty interesting as well. In fact, it often goes a

00:19:36.380 little deeper because now we're talking about relationships.

00:19:39.300 And then the third and final one, Brett, is about patterns. And it's about your own patterns

00:19:45.620 of behavior that might be getting in the way. So if we wanted to go deeper into that conversation

00:19:51.120 about so, you know, in terms of your own patterns, what's showing up here? She's like, oh, I've had,

00:19:58.220 I'm a lifetime procrastinator. Oh, I don't like confrontation. Oh, I avoid that. I avoid the hard,

00:20:05.520 great work if I'm trying to do it. Who knows? I mean, I'm just making all this stuff up.

00:20:10.040 So it's a way of potentially deepening or expanding the conversation just to make sure that you're

00:20:16.460 getting into the real stuff. Okay. And then does that work as a model for you?

00:20:21.140 No, that, yeah, that's perfect. I love it. And, but even then, so you got this information. I think

00:20:25.760 most people would be like, okay, thanks for telling me that here's what you need to do. Um, but you say

00:20:32.120 that that shouldn't be the next thing that comes out of your mouth. Um, you should follow up with

00:20:36.520 another question. What is that question? That's right. Well, you could follow up with any number

00:20:41.560 of questions, but I think that one of the questions that can be really helpful for you

00:20:45.960 is first of all, to do what Brett's beautifully articulated, which is to notice the surge within

00:20:53.440 that says you should tell this person what to do because we all have it. It's a natural reaction.

00:20:58.820 And you're like, Oh man, well now I understand what the real chat. Now I know what's going

00:21:02.740 on for you. Okay. Well, let me give you some advice. But the truth is you don't really know

00:21:08.120 what's going on yet. You've heard the kind of the opening lines, but the key inside to

00:21:13.100 remember is that the first challenge is almost never the real challenge. So this is exactly

00:21:19.060 what happened with this conversation with his author. I said, so what's on your mind? And

00:21:23.540 she kind of went blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was like, wow,

00:21:27.060 there's a lot going on here. And then I asked this next question, the one question you're

00:21:31.340 asking about, which we call the focus question. And the focus question is this. So what's the

00:21:37.340 real challenge here for you? What's the real challenge here for you? And the way that question

00:21:44.800 is written or spoken really does matter because I could have said, so what's the challenge here?

00:21:51.020 And I would have got an answer. It would have been an okay answer, but can we kind of firing

00:21:55.140 from the hip? This is what the challenge is. I could upgrade that question and say, what's

00:22:01.180 the real challenge here? And can you see how that already makes people have to work a little

00:22:07.620 bit harder to figure out what's really going on for them? What's the real challenge here?

00:22:12.540 But actually the way I, the final version of this question, what's the real challenge here

00:22:17.380 for you? Adding for you is when the spotlight kind of swings from the challenge at hand to the person

00:22:26.680 who's dealing with the challenge. And that's when the conversation can get a little deeper,

00:22:32.320 a little more personal, a little more profound. So that can be a great question to follow up.

00:22:36.380 What's the real challenge here for you?

00:22:38.060 Right. Because that forces them to think about what, well, what can they do about, I mean,

00:22:43.340 maybe I would start thinking like, what can I do about these problems? A lot of the stuff when

00:22:47.360 you're writing a book, you really don't have much control over. But when you think about, okay,

00:22:51.720 what's the challenge for me, that kind of puts things back in the locus of your control.

00:22:56.600 Right. Exactly. And it also helps you move away from thinking about how do I blame others?

00:23:05.980 Because it's like easy to go, okay, I'm just going to blame Brett now for an hour and a half

00:23:10.620 to go. And what's the real challenge here for you? Well, it's not about

00:23:14.240 Brett or whoever else the other person is. It's actually about how do you deal with that person?

00:23:19.520 So it does, just as you perfectly said, swing the locus of the conversation back to the locus of

00:23:26.380 control. What are you up against? Not what's going on over there, but what are you up against right

00:23:31.680 now? What's the real challenge here for you? And now we can actually tackle

00:23:35.800 something that's real and tangible. Right. And even then, after the person has

00:23:40.300 begun to untangle what the real challenge is for them, you argue that you should follow up with the

00:23:46.700 question, and what else? Right. Because again, now they've told you what the real challenge is.

00:23:53.420 Now, the advice monster within that desperate need to tell people what to do, now it's alive.

00:23:59.960 You're like, oh, look how awesome I was. I asked them what's on their mind. Now I asked

00:24:04.580 them what's the real challenge here. Wow. Now I know what the real challenge is. Wow. My advice

00:24:09.260 is going to be fantastic. But actually, again, you probably haven't really heard what the real

00:24:13.840 challenge is. You probably heard a version of it or their first guess or sometimes something

00:24:19.420 completely different. So then you go, great. Okay. I got that. What else is a real challenge?

00:24:24.440 What else is a real challenge here for you? And then whatever the answer to that, you could follow

00:24:29.520 it up again by going, okay, so what else? What else is a real challenge here for you?

00:24:35.280 And then if you lean in one final time and go, okay, Brett, a lot going on here. Now you see all of

00:24:41.960 that. What's the real challenge here for you? I can promise you that almost nine times out of 10,

00:24:48.960 the answer to that second question, what's the real challenge here for you? It's going to be

00:24:53.520 different from their answer to the first time. What's the real challenge here for you? Different

00:24:59.560 and deeper and more personal. And that has a double impact. The first impact is this. It tells you that

00:25:06.680 if you were trying to solve the first problem, you'd be solving the wrong problem. Secondly, you need to

00:25:12.540 know that your advice actually isn't nearly as good as you actually think it is. So not only are you

00:25:18.140 solving the wrong problem, but you're trying to do so by offering up slightly useless advice.

00:25:23.300 So this is not a great way to show up in the world, the person who solves the wrong problem with not

00:25:28.200 very good advice. And just staying that little bit curious for a little bit longer just allows the

00:25:34.160 real challenge to actually evolve and show up. Yeah, I love that. It reminds me, I have a professor

00:25:40.160 friend who says, you have to ask a question three times to get a good answer from somebody.

00:25:45.720 I reckon there's some truth in that. Yeah. And he'll do that with his students. He won't say

00:25:50.640 the same thing over and over again, but he'll phrase it differently. And he says it every time

00:25:54.780 I do that. The first, the last answer I get is always better and always different from the first

00:26:00.480 answer they gave. I'm just hoping you're not going to apply that to us in this, this interview

00:26:04.920 right now. Right. I'm going to do it right now. And what else? Yeah, exactly. Michael. But I think

00:26:11.460 it's interesting too, that when you're asking these questions or when you're asking about the

00:26:16.740 problems of what's on their mind, you're not asking why, why is that a problem for you? You're

00:26:21.800 asking what is the problem? So I mean, why is it important to, I'm asking a why question. So why should

00:26:28.880 you stick to what questions and not do the why questions? How does that, how does that give you

00:26:33.820 different results? Yeah. Well, it could, you could ask me what's the trap in asking why questions?

00:26:40.100 There you go. So you're a pro at this. I'm a pro at it. Exactly. So I love that you brought this up

00:26:45.200 because it's something I bang on about in the book a little bit. And the first thing to say is there

00:26:50.440 are times when the why question can be really powerful. Lots of people have heard of the, the practice

00:26:56.540 known as the five whys. You know, somebody goes, I want to do this. And you go, well, why? And they 0.75

00:27:02.980 go, well, because of this. And you go, well, why? And then they go, well, okay, because of this. And

00:27:07.540 they go, well, why? And it's a way of quite powerfully getting to kind of some deep rooted

00:27:12.740 motivation. Perfect in certain circumstances. But for most of us, normal, normally in everyday

00:27:19.720 interactions, everyday conversations, the why question can be a bit of a trap. And I think it's got

00:27:26.360 two things about it that can lead people astray, make them less effective in their conversation.

00:27:32.380 And the first is this, simply to say, it is really hard to ask the why question without

00:27:38.240 it sounding slightly judgmental. You know, because why, why are you doing this? So often

00:27:44.700 comes across as, why the hell are you doing this?

00:27:48.320 Yeah. I do that with my kids a lot. And when I do it, I kind of like, that was a dumb question

00:27:53.000 to ask. Right. Well, you see what, what they're often, what you're actually asking people to 0.93

00:27:58.540 do is often justify. And now they're defensive. And now they're actually in the kind of lizard

00:28:04.840 brain, amygdala, fight or flight thing. And you've kind of lost the good heart of the conversation.

00:28:11.780 So that's the first reason. The second reason is more subtle. And it's this, when you ask

00:28:18.880 why, too often you're asking that not for your, not for the other person's sake, but for your

00:28:27.420 sake. Because here's what's going on in your head, kind of consciously or not. If I just find

00:28:33.580 out more details about what's going on with this issue, I'll be able to tell them what to

00:28:39.540 do. So the why question is about you gathering data rather than actually helping the other person

00:28:48.100 explore what's really going on. And if you, if you agree with the principle of the book and part of

00:28:54.640 one of the principles of the book is become a lazy coach, you know, stop working so hard. So you can

00:29:00.560 let the other person find their own path. You realize that actually asking why it just makes you work

00:29:06.660 harder because you're trying to solve the problem for them. And actually you might want to shift out

00:29:11.940 of that to say, what if I help you solve your own problem?

00:29:14.640 So I mean, what kind of other, what questions could you ask to help that process along? So,

00:29:19.960 you know, we've asked what's on your mind? What's the real challenge for you? What else? I mean,

00:29:25.480 are there other, what questions that could be helpful along this process? Like questions,

00:29:30.180 like what questions you would ask instead of saying, asking why?

00:29:32.920 Yeah. So I would, I would ask questions like, um, so what's at the heart of that? Um,

00:29:41.000 what's your best guess at why you took that path? Um, what was your thinking that made you react like

00:29:52.280 that? Um, and you know, they're, they're just subtle variations on that, but I do think that the,

00:29:59.360 by asking them, what was your, what was your thinking in working through that path? It's

00:30:05.720 actually valuable for the other person to figure out their thinking. So that's actually in service

00:30:09.960 of the other person. Right. I think it's better than why, because why will kind of muddle things

00:30:14.560 up and what forces the person to get kind of analytical about their thinking process?

00:30:19.740 Right. Yeah. So, you know, with everything I say on this podcast and in the book,

00:30:26.100 none of it is a definitive hard and fast that thou shalt not, because you can always find a reason

00:30:32.540 when, you know, asking why, for instance, might be a really smart thing to do. But, um, as a

00:30:38.200 principle, I certainly have gone, look, the simpler I can make this whole idea of coaching,

00:30:44.440 the better, you know, that's the goal of the book. The book was to go, what's the shortest book I

00:30:48.200 could write that would still be useful? What's the simplest way I can frame coaching that would

00:30:52.760 be useful? You know, it boils down to here's a habit, here's an understanding of a habit and a

00:30:57.440 habit formula. Here's seven great questions that will take you solidly down the path nine times out

00:31:03.800 of 10. And in doing that, you know, there's a quote from Einstein. He's like, things should be as

00:31:09.740 simple as possible and no simpler. So what I'm trying to do is go, look, here's something else you

00:31:15.560 might be able to eliminate from your regular conversation that will make it more powerful

00:31:19.740 and less effortful. Um, so we've been trying to, we've been trying to stave off the, the advice

00:31:28.440 monster as much as we can by asking these questions, but is there any, is there ever a moment, uh, when

00:31:33.740 you should step in and be like, here's what you need to do? Here's some advice, straightforward advice.

00:31:38.020 Yeah. Lots of times. Um, you know, there's a, there's a, uh, a Harvard business review by a guy

00:31:46.440 called Daniel Goleman. And Daniel Goleman is the, one of the kind of the guy who popularized emotional

00:31:51.180 intelligence. And he wrote a book based on this article as well, which I can't quite remember the

00:31:56.340 name of, might be primitive leadership or something like that. Anyway, he says, look, there are six

00:32:01.380 different styles of leadership. Um, there's a kind of pace setting one. There's a democratic one.

00:32:07.580 There's coaching. There's a few others as well. And great leaders actually know how to use all six

00:32:14.560 styles at the appropriate time in the appropriate way, because every style has its advantages and its

00:32:20.080 disadvantages. Coaching happens to be the least utilized of those leadership skills, even though it

00:32:27.060 has, you know, a range of great impacts, including on engagement and on the bottom line. But you know,

00:32:33.220 if the, if the building is burning down and Brett goes, Oh my God, Michael, the building's built,

00:32:39.520 burning down. It's not useful for me to go, Brett, how are you feeling about the building burning down?

00:32:46.320 And what else? Yeah. And what else is burning? Exactly. It's like, there's nothing useful about that at

00:32:51.580 all. It is. And part of your job, if you're in an organization is actually to bring your expertise

00:32:58.660 and experience to the forefront and use it in a wise way. And that's why we define coaching, not as

00:33:05.480 uh, never give anybody advice. It is simply, how do you stay curious just a little bit longer?

00:33:12.140 How do you rush to action and advice just a little bit slower? So it's a really specific

00:33:17.840 habit, you know, something that people can take away right away. You know, when somebody comes up

00:33:22.960 to you and goes, Hey, Michael, how do I, how do I do X? Here's my kind of habitual response. I'll go,

00:33:30.960 look, I've got some, I've got some thoughts on how to do that. And I'm going to share them with you for

00:33:35.740 sure. But before I tell you how I'd approach it, let me ask you, what, what are your first thoughts

00:33:40.680 on how to take that on? And whatever they say, I'm going to nod my head and probably agree with

00:33:46.040 them. And I'll go, I love it. What else could you do? And then what else could you do? And this is

00:33:51.560 great. Is there anything else you could do? Fantastic. I don't know. Is there, is there one

00:33:55.700 other thing you could do potentially to approach this? And so now they've actually gone through

00:33:59.880 the hard work of generating their own ideas and their own possibilities. But I may just go, so look,

00:34:05.600 I love all of those ideas. Let me give you one or two that occurred to me as you're saying this,

00:34:09.480 you could also do this and you could also do that. So there you go. You've got like five or six or

00:34:14.380 seven good ideas here. Um, which one do you like here? Which one, which one might you act on? You

00:34:19.060 know, which one do you want to put into play? So use advice, but use it a little slower than you

00:34:27.700 currently do because at the moment you over advise, you advise too quickly. And it means, as we said

00:34:34.140 before, you're, you're so often serving up not very good advice to solve what's probably not the real

00:34:39.840 problem. Right. And also think just giving the advice or making someone work to figure out the

00:34:45.260 problem themselves, they're more likely to act on it. Right. It's like whose advice, whose idea am I

00:34:50.900 likely to follow? The idea that my boss told me to do or the idea I came up for by myself? Well,

00:34:57.600 the actual answer is the idea you came up by yourself. Cause if I came up with it by myself,

00:35:00.940 I'm like, that's gotta be a pretty good idea. I thought of it. And if it was boss, you're like,

00:35:05.980 that's awesome. I don't need to tell him that idea. Cause they thought of it themselves. I get

00:35:09.860 to tell him a few other things and add value that way. Yeah. And cause I've noticed that in my own

00:35:14.560 life, you know, I've had experiences where people will come to me and ask like, Hey, can I have coffee

00:35:19.220 with you? Or I can ask you like how to start a blog. And I've done that in the past. And before I

00:35:23.880 would just kind of like do a dump, like, here's everything I did, yada, yada, yada. And then I would

00:35:28.520 follow up and be like, Hey, so what's going on with it? And they haven't done anything. And I think

00:35:32.700 there's two things going on there. Um, one is that they didn't have to work for it. Right. So

00:35:37.440 they didn't were able to internalize that. And also the advice I gave probably wasn't very useful

00:35:42.580 because when I started, my website was back in 2008 and the whole landscape is completely different

00:35:49.140 from what it is now. And so it's, I probably wasn't offering productive advice.

00:35:54.700 That may be the case. I mean, there may be, um, you know, who knows? Cause I've had,

00:36:02.080 I've had a thousand of those conversations as well. And, you know, honestly, they probably had

00:36:05.960 a similar result. Um, sometime people just don't want to act on, on stuff. They're like talking to

00:36:12.740 people about starting a blog is almost the same as actually starting a blog. And actually now I've

00:36:17.300 spoken to Brett, I realized how hard he works to make that successful. Huh? Now I'm even less

00:36:23.120 interested, but it's interesting. If they're like, so, you know, if they come to you and go, how do you

00:36:27.400 start a blog? And rather than launching into advice, you go, well, let me ask you, uh,

00:36:33.880 what's your objectives for the blog and how committed are you to, to creating a blog and

00:36:40.800 what's the real challenge here for you? Do you think in, in, in creating this blog and what else

00:36:46.060 is a challenge for you and what else? And so what's the real challenge at the heart of,

00:36:50.540 of getting going on a blog for you? Okay. Now you see the real challenge. You know,

00:36:55.860 what are your own ideas about how to actually tackle that and take that on? Great. And so I

00:37:00.640 love what you're thinking. Let me give you one or two pieces of ideas that I've learned from

00:37:04.460 starting a blog that might help you with that particular challenge. And it's actually a faster

00:37:10.000 conversation and it might be more to the point. Yeah. And so, I mean, these conversations can

00:37:14.760 happen quickly. I mean, how long did the conversation that you had with the lady about

00:37:19.080 her book, how long, how long did that take? Yeah. I'm going to say that the, the heart of it

00:37:23.680 was a 10 minutes. I mean, it can't have been very long cause I was sitting in an airport waiting to

00:37:28.420 catch a plane. So I didn't have a whole lot of time for this, but you're able to get something

00:37:32.820 productive for it. She's able to hone in on something and yeah. So we got to what I would

00:37:39.160 say is the heart of her issue. And then I was able to say, you know what? Um, this isn't actually

00:37:47.620 something that I'm that good at working on. I don't have that much information about it,

00:37:52.080 but let me give you the name of one or two or two people. It'd be really great resources for you

00:37:56.480 here. So I got to offer advice, but if we'd started where she wanted to start, I'd have given her

00:38:04.140 advice on something completely different. As it was, the, the conversation deepened and shifted,

00:38:12.220 became a bit more personal. And we got to something that was really kind of the bigger block,

00:38:17.560 the bigger issues she wanted to take on. And, you know, let's go to ending. Like,

00:38:23.360 so we're not going to call these conversations, I'm going to call it conversations, coaching

00:38:26.620 sessions just for a verbal place. Yeah. Shorthand. Yeah. Shorthand. Um, but an important part of

00:38:32.040 coaching is the followup, right? To ensure that, you know, what you've talked about or discussed

00:38:37.180 with your person, it's actually done. So how should, is there something you should, like a question

00:38:42.140 you should ask or something you should say at the end of this to, to ensure there's some

00:38:45.780 followup on what was discussed? Well, again, I'm going to, I'm going to say often followup

00:38:52.020 is an important part of coaching, but not always. Um, so it depends a little on the relationship

00:38:57.320 and the person and the, and what the context and what's going on. So for the woman I spoke to that

00:39:04.380 I've been talking about as I kind of thread through the story, there's no followup. Um, I'm at the end

00:39:11.120 of that. I said, is there anything, any other thing else I can help you with? She's like, no,

00:39:15.520 I've got what I need. I'm like, fantastic. Good luck. Bon voyage. And you know, I sent her

00:39:21.580 introductions to two people who I mentioned on the phone and then my work here was done.

00:39:27.680 Part of the nuance here is, is this. So one of the core principles and in the book and in the

00:39:36.900 programs we have is, you know, we'd say be lazy, which is really meant to be provocative because

00:39:42.780 lots of people aren't lazy. The people who listen to podcasts like yours, Brett, aren't lazy people

00:39:47.120 because they're keen, they're enthusiastic. They're trying to live better lives, but we often overwork

00:39:52.760 that to the detriment of our own lives and to the detriment of those that we run, we lead and we

00:39:57.080 influence. And one of the challenges with saying my job is to hold you accountable is that I've now made

00:40:04.380 it my job to check up on you. And sometimes that's great. Sometimes it turns into this weird policing

00:40:14.140 parental surveillance thing, which doesn't help anybody makes it kind of a burden to me and it

00:40:21.200 makes it a burden to you as well. So one of the things that I'll often ask at the end of a conversation,

00:40:28.800 I'll ask a couple of things. One is I'll often ask what we call in the book, the learning question,

00:40:33.900 where I get to go, hey, what was most useful and most valuable for you from this conversation?

00:40:39.740 So what that does is it forces somebody to kind of extract the value, get the aha moment that they

00:40:44.760 might otherwise miss. But the other thing I'll do is I'll go, so what else do you want from me,

00:40:50.580 if anything? How else can I help, if at all? And sometimes I'll make a request and sometimes I'll say,

00:40:56.840 you know, I've got what I need. And I'm like, that's fantastic. If it's somebody with a more specific

00:41:03.040 kind of relationship with me, like somebody on my team, for instance, I'll still ask them,

00:41:08.620 so what else do you want from me, if anything? And after they've told me, I'll go, okay, great.

00:41:15.060 So here's what I want from you. I'd like to see your first thoughts on this plan by Wednesday next

00:41:21.060 week. So I'll set a kind of objective that I'm looking for. Don't take on the burden of I need to

00:41:27.260 hold everybody else accountable because that can become a very heavy burden very quickly.

00:41:31.940 Definitely. My next question is related to that. You know, the sort of the system you've set up,

00:41:38.440 again, it's not sort of ironclad, but it's a great working system to use and fall back on.

00:41:43.260 It's easy and it can make coaching very easy. And it's so easy that I can see like you wanting to do

00:41:49.340 it all the time, right? And help as many people as you can. But again, that can be a burden. Like

00:41:55.340 you can overextend yourself. So how do you manage wanting to coach, wanting to help without

00:42:01.640 overextending yourself where it's bad for you and bad for the people you're trying to coach?

00:42:07.080 Yeah, it's another great, great question. The first thing to say is often a coach-like approach

00:42:13.620 can actually mean that you can manage more because you're not taking on everybody else's work for them.

00:42:19.340 And one of the burdens lots of people have is I feel like I'm responsible for my work and other

00:42:23.400 people's work as well. And that can be kind of quite crushing. And this frees you from that.

00:42:29.640 So that's the first thing to say, which is sometimes you actually, you can work with a lighter touch,

00:42:34.600 but with greater clarity and greater kind of structure and systems in place.

00:42:40.480 And then the other piece is going, you know, you get a yet another email going,

00:42:46.320 Brett, you're awesome. I love your podcast. Can you tell me how to set up a podcast, please?

00:42:52.280 And you're torn because you're a nice guy. You want to serve the world. Part of you goes,

00:42:58.140 yeah, I'll grab another coffee with you. Part of you goes, man, this is my ninth cup of coffee

00:43:03.220 in the last three days. A, I'm over-caffeinated. B, I seem to be giving a lot. And other people seem

00:43:11.200 to be taking a lot and it doesn't seem to be nourishing me. I'm making that up about you,

00:43:16.280 Brett, but you know, I've just put that out there. Sure. I've been there. Yeah.

00:43:20.140 Yeah. So I am really influenced by a writer called Adam Grant. He wrote a book called Give and Take.

00:43:29.440 He's got a new book out called The Originals, which is good without quite having the same impact on me

00:43:35.680 as that book Give and Take. And he says, look, there are actually three different ways you can

00:43:41.160 show up in the world. You know, it's a model. All models are wrong. Some are useful. He says,

00:43:46.680 look, you can be a giver. You can be a taker. Or you can be a, gosh, I've forgotten the label.

00:43:53.320 Basically, a reciprocity. You scratch my back, I'll scratch your back. And here's what he found. 0.85

00:43:59.660 He found that, after doing a ton of research, because his stuff is all research-based,

00:44:05.480 he found that in all sorts of different sectors and different roles and different jobs,

00:44:10.640 the people who failed most spectacularly at those jobs are in the bottom 10, 20 percent,

00:44:16.720 tended to be the givers. Because they tend to be the givers who had poor boundaries. So they would

00:44:23.220 deplete themselves. They'd become overwhelmed. They would give without realizing the price that they

00:44:29.380 were paying. And they wouldn't be able to do their own work or get what they wanted.

00:44:34.080 So actually, it's like, you know, you kind of, you suffer as a giver. But then here's the twist.

00:44:39.120 He also found that the people at the very top performers in those roles and in the sectors or

00:44:43.960 wherever, they too were the givers. But it was a different type of giving. It's a giving that went,

00:44:49.580 look, I will give as much as I can, but not in a way that will deplete me, overwhelm me,

00:44:56.000 ruin me. I'll give in a way that, or I'm not necessarily giving away that goes, I'm only

00:45:02.300 giving this because I'm pretty sure that you're going to give me something back in the next day

00:45:05.720 or week or whatever. It's giving kind of in that I'm putting out good stuff out to the universe.

00:45:12.280 I'm looking after myself and I'm making sure that I take what I need and I look after myself as well.

00:45:19.280 And all of this is a long, long answer to your question about how do you not become overwhelmed

00:45:24.200 if you're wanting to coach and support people? And the answer is you've got to figure out

00:45:27.880 what you want and what that means in terms of what your boundaries are, what you can and can't do.

00:45:34.780 And it comes down to actually, again, one of the questions we mentioned in the book,

00:45:38.040 we call it the strategic question, which is, what are you going to say no to?

00:45:42.500 So you can truly say yes to the stuff that you care most about.

00:45:45.600 Because as an example, again, made up example, but we're just kind of combining fiction with fact.

00:45:53.940 Every time you go out and have a coffee with somebody and spend an hour talking to them about

00:45:58.580 a blog or a podcast is an hour you don't get to do your great work in this world.

00:46:05.440 And sure, you serve somebody and you help somebody out in that coffee.

00:46:09.720 But is that the best way for you to have the impact you want to have in the world?

00:46:16.060 Is that the work that most lights you up?

00:46:19.040 And the answer may be, yeah, it may be, yes, that is.

00:46:22.940 But for me anyway, what I discovered is at a certain point, I was feeling that wasn't.

00:46:28.760 And actually, the price I was paying for having coffee with somebody

00:46:31.860 was that I wasn't getting to write my book or whatever it might be.

00:46:36.340 Right. And that's a tough question to figure to answer.

00:46:38.220 What are you willing to say no to?

00:46:39.240 Yeah, it is.

00:46:40.480 It's a hard one.

00:46:41.640 Well, Michael, this has been a great conversation.

00:46:43.760 Where can people find out more about the book and the rest of your work?

00:46:48.120 I appreciate you saying that.

00:46:50.320 So look, if you're interested in the book, obviously, it's available on Amazon and all

00:46:54.720 those other places.

00:46:57.360 Thecoachinghabit.com.

00:46:58.620 So the name of the book, thecoachinghabit.com.

00:47:00.940 It has information about the book and there's a ton of free resources, videos and downloads

00:47:05.640 and reports and all that stuff there.

00:47:08.220 So regardless of whether you want to get the book or not, please do go to the website and

00:47:12.940 kind of pillage it.

00:47:14.480 If you're kind enough to pick up a copy of the book and good enough to even read it, then

00:47:18.960 my request, if I may be bold, is to say a review on Amazon is always really appreciated.

00:47:25.540 I've got an audacious goal to get to a thousand reviews on Amazon.com.

00:47:29.860 And so if you had a chance to read it and are so inclined, a review there would be really

00:47:35.340 appreciated.

00:47:36.440 And if you're interested in the box of crayons kind of training programs, which we bring into

00:47:40.980 large organizations typically, then boxofcrayons, all one word, .biz, B-I-Z or B-I-Z, depending

00:47:49.120 on where you live in the world.

00:47:50.060 All right.

00:47:51.180 Well, Michael, thanks so much for your time.

00:47:52.820 It's been a pleasure.

00:47:54.080 It has.

00:47:54.500 Thanks for your help, Brian.

00:47:55.700 My guest today was Michael Bungai-Stenger and his book is The Coaching Habits, available

00:47:59.020 on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.

00:48:01.020 You can also find more information about Michael's work at boxofcrayons.biz.

00:48:05.080 Also check out the show notes at aom.is slash coaching habit, where you can find links to

00:48:08.900 resources where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:48:21.820 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:48:25.100 For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at

00:48:28.040 artofmanliness.com.

00:48:29.120 Our show is edited by Creative Audio Lab here in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

00:48:32.080 If you have any audio editing needs or audio production needs, check them out at creativeaudiolab.com.

00:48:36.900 As always, we appreciate your continued support.

00:48:38.620 Reviews on iTunes or Stitcher really helps us out.

00:48:40.840 Really appreciate that.

00:48:42.140 And until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.

The Art of Manliness - December 28, 2016

#264： How to Coach People in Business, Sports, and Life

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