#264： How to Coach People in Business, Sports, and Life
Episode Stats
Summary
In this episode of the Art of Manliness podcast, Brett McKay talks to Michael Bungay Stanger, the author of The Coaching Habit, about how to be more coach-like in your work and in your personal life. They discuss how to coach in a way that makes the recipient receptive to your feedback but doesn't take up too much of your time and energy.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. So whether
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you're a parent, a manager or a mentor, we all have to coach people at some point in
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our life. But how do you coach in a way that makes the recipient receptive to your feedback
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but doesn't take up too much of your time and energy? Well, my guest today has spent his
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career coaching managers on how to be better leaders at work and he's distilled his knowledge
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on how to coach effectively in his latest book. His name is Michael Bungay Stanger and
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his book is The Coaching Habit. And today on the show, Michael and I discuss how effective
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coaching requires you to talk less and ask more questions. And then Michael walks us through
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the exact questions you should ask when coaching someone that will guide them to the answer
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they need to make their needed improvement. This works across domains, whether you're a
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parent, a business, even if you're a sports coach, this stuff will work. A lot of actionable
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advice. Make sure to check out the show notes at aom.is slash coaching habit after the show's
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over where you can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic.
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It is very good to be here. Thanks for having me, Brett.
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So you've written several books. Your latest book is called The Coaching Habit and it's all
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about providing coaching in a work setting, but I think it could apply in other ways too in your
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personal life or if you're a coach of a sports team. But let's focus on the business aspect
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because I think people who are listening, they're either a manager or they're a leader of some sort
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of their job where they have to provide coaching or training to their employees.
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And you highlight research in your book that shows that leaders and managers who regularly take part
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in coaching create a markedly positive impact on the company's performance and profitability.
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Yet at the same time, most leaders and managers don't make time for coaching.
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So why is it that disconnect there? Like they know it's good, but they don't.
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Exactly. So you've seen that research that says most people have found that if you do exercise,
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you're markedly better in your life. And yet, if you eat well, you have a markedly improved life.
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And yet, so partly we're just dealing with that, that human nature piece, which is around,
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we have habits. It's hard to shift out of habits, even when we know we're good. I mean,
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one of the most telling pieces of research I saw about just how hard it is to shift out of old ways
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of behaving. I think I read this in the Fast Company magazine some years ago. Look, people with
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serious heart disease, not chronic, actually critical heart disease. And they have this kind of
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operation that effectively saves their lives. And the doctor says, look, operation, it stopped you
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dying immediately, but it's not going to stop you dying unless you actually change the way you live
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your life. And I think that the number was only one in eight was able to change their lifestyle
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so as to live a healthier life. And so, I mean, this is literally a matter of life and death,
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and people find it really hard to shift out of the way that they're working.
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So the first thing I'd say, Brett, is this, that, you know, you're right, that the person I had in
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mind when I wrote this was a busy manager, probably keen to do their job, trying to do their best,
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feeling a bit overwhelmed, feeling that the team isn't perhaps hitting their peak, and maybe they're
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not hitting their peak. How do you help people be more coach-like? But truthfully, this is the stuff
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in the book and the stuff we're going to talk about is just useful if you interact with other human
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beings. If you deal with other human beings, this is going to help you. But why is it so hard
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to be more coach-like? And I'm trying to distinguish the difference between being a coach,
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which, you know, lots of people just don't want to do, and being more coach-like, which could
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actually help pretty much everybody. And when I define this, it's pretty simple stuff. You know,
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I would say being more coach-like is simply, how do you stay curious just a little bit longer?
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How do you rush to action and advice just a little bit slower? Because the truth of the matter is,
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most of us are advice-giving maniacs. I mean, we love it. You know, it's like, I don't even know what
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the problem is, Brett, but I've already got some initial ideas about how you should be doing things
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differently. It's really just a deep habit in terms of the way we show up. Because honestly,
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for most of our life, we've been praised and paid and promoted to have the answers, to know what's
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going on, to stay in control. And that shift from curiosity, which is, you know, if you have a few
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good questions, and you have the way and means to make them into asking them into a habit, that shift
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sounds simple, but it's actually trickier than you'd think. Yeah. I mean, that's a long answer
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to your question, but does that give you a sense of what we're talking about? Yeah, it does. And I
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like the distinction between being a coach and being coach-like. Because I think when most people
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think being a coach, I think like this guy barking orders, doing this, but coach-like is more of a
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mindset where you're looking at people where there are and trying to help them find answers or
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solutions themselves. Yeah. Working with them. Well, what I love is that when you say people
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think, you know, be coach, be a coach, they go to two different paths. One is the classic sports
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coach, you know, with the whistle, drop and give me 20, sort of shouting orders. The other is kind
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of vanishing into the kind of Californian hippie therapy incest. Life coach. Pastel colored life
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coaching stuff. And honestly, people can look at both of those options and go, I am not the least bit
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interested in either of those two stereotypes. Obviously the truth is there are plenty of sports
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coaches that are fantastic. There are plenty of life coaches that are fantastic. But it is a
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distinction to say, look, just forget being a coach, just be more coach-like, just stay curious
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just a little bit longer. Even if there's coaching or mentorship programs in place at an office,
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most employees report that it's not very good. They'd rather like not have it. So what's wrong with
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the way, the way most companies or managers go about coaching?
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Yeah, it's, it's a bit of a dilemma. I mean, the, the research pointed out that I think as close to
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75% of managers said that they had some form of training. Now, who knows what that means? It could
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be, you know, he's had to be an active listener. He's, he's my theory on coaching, whatever it might be.
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But it really didn't seem to translate into impact in the workplace. Um, in fact, in that study,
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10% of people said that the coaching was actually having a negative effect on their impact and on
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their enthusiasm for the job. And I was just like, man, there must be, there must be a tough
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conversation to be part of, you know, come into my office, Brett, because my plan is to demotivate
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you by coaching you some. Um, so what, why doesn't it work? Well, I think part of it is
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potentially a way that people are taught coaching and, you know, I, I'm, I have a bias in saying this
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because, you know, my company box of crayons, we make our money by training people to be more coach
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like. So, you know, I, I have a, I have a biased opinion about why coach training doesn't work.
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Um, but often there's not a great deal of translation from theory and models and abstractness
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to practical tools. And I think that's probably one of the biggest gaps, which is people just find it
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hard to, to move from the classroom and go back into their day-to-day work to be more coach-like.
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Um, and I just think that, you know, in many organizations, what coaching is set up to be
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is an occasional intervention. Like, okay, Brett, it's the, it's the first of the month,
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first Monday of the month, come into my office. We're going to have our coaching session.
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And honestly, you know, your heart drops when you hear that you're like, Oh God. Okay. So what's
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this going to be about this time? And if you're the manager, if you're on the other side of the
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table, your heart drops, which is like, ah, you know, I'm doing a fine job at managing them, but
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I'm working with them and supporting them and encouraging them. But apparently I don't have to
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coach them, whatever that means. And so you have this kind of awkward monthly conversation
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and both of you are delighted when it's finished. And both of you are delighted that it's a month
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until you have to go through that a second time. So I think that's the other key thing, which is
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for us, coaching isn't about the occasional event. It's about understanding that every interaction
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can be a bit more coach-like. So whether I'm having a meeting with you, whether I'm just
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bumping into you in the corridor, whether I'm managing by walking about, whether we're even
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trading emails, I can actually bring a kind of coaching mentality, being more coach-like
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into that. And in doing so kind of strip back some of that kind of anxiety and formality
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that sometimes comes with coaching. You know, the metaphor that we like to talk about is saying,
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look, what we're after is drip irrigation, not the occasional flash flood. And that's really the
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heart of it. And I think the fact that coaching can feel like the occasional flash flood in many
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organizations is part of where it goes wrong. Right. And so that hence the name of your book,
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The Coaching Habit, like coaching for you isn't just a one-time event. It is something you do on a
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continual basis. You got it. I mean, the first chapter of the book is actually all about the science of
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habit building because, and you know, honestly, whether you're interested in coaching or not,
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if you're interested in living a better life, you got to know how habits work because habits are the
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building blocks of behavior change. So, you know, if not the Coaching Habit book, you know,
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Charles Duhigg's book called The Power of Habit. If not Duhigg, go to BJ Fogg's website,
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which is tinyhabits.com. And there's a ton of great resources there. If not BJ Fogg, go to
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Leo Babauter and Zen Habits and look up stuff there about building new habits. If not Leo Babauter,
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then Gretchen Rubin. There's a lot of people out there who've written some smart stuff about
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habit building. And it's really useful if you're looking to live a life which has
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more impact and more meaning to actually understand how the science of habits work.
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Right. So, and so basically the coaching habit is developed like any other habit. You just make
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small changes on a regular basis and the change is going to come slowly, but it will come as you
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keep digging at it. Right. I mean, it's one of those pernicious things that's out there in the
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world about, you know, how to build a habit, which is like, just do it for 21 days and you've got a
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habit. And, you know, sad to say that somebody just made that up and now, and now it's out there
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on the internet and on the front of magazines and stuff. Um, it takes longer than that typically
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to build a habit. Um, but you know, there's actually not a set number of days. It depends
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on the habit. It depends on the person. It depends on the context. Also, all those things play a big
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role, but yeah, the way you do habit is repeated acts. That's how you build it. You know, in the brain,
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you know, the, the, the saying in neuroscience is what fires together, wires together. And what
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they're talking about is they're kind of links between the different neural in the creating new
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neural pathways in your brain. And the more you walk a certain pathway, the more you repeat a
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behavior, the more that connection in your brain strengthens. And the more that happens, the more
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likely it is to become a habit. And in the process you're, you change your, your character changes,
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is your, I wouldn't say your personality changes, but like, yeah, there's something about your
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character that changes. That's a great, I mean, that's a, that's a really interesting,
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elusive question, which is, you know, what are we as human beings? What are we? And you know,
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are we a collection of our behaviors? Well, you know, the, the, the proof of the pudding is in what we do
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often, you know, you ask people what they stand for in this world and they can give you an answer
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or you can look at how they show up in the world and you can figure out what matters to them,
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what's important to them, what their values are. And you, you can make the comment, you can have the
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conversation about what matters to me, but really it's like, how are you living your life? What does
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that tell you about who you are as a man, as a woman, who are you in this world? What does that tell
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you about what you stand for? And, uh, there's often a pretty big gap between how we see ourselves and
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what we actually end up doing. Right. It's very Aristotelian. Aristotle thought, you know, we are
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our actions. Right. We are what we repeatedly do. Right. Yeah. So let's, let's get into the specifics
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of how to develop this coaching habit. So the whole, just starting a quote unquote coaching
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conversation can be awkward because I mean, basically you're insinuating to the person,
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Hey, look, you're not very good at this and you need some help. And a lot of folks, I mean,
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they can resent that it's natural. Of course you're a bit crappy. Let me, who loves that
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conversation? Yes. Not many people. So how can you start off a coaching conversation that's both
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tactful and will lead to a productive conversation? Well, the first thing I want to do is just reframe
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your question a little bit, because I don't think a coaching conversation, particularly the way we think
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about it as a kind of just a daily way of showing up a mindset means that you're implying that somebody's
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not very good or somebody's failing or somebody's wandered off the path, whatever it might be.
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Really what you're doing is you're saying, my goal is to help this person move towards fulfilling and
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expressing their full potential. So how do I do that? And so much around helping them unlock what's
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already there, helping them. And this is the quote from one of the kind of real influences in the world
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of coaching. A guy who said John Whitmore, John Whitmore says, you're helping people to learn
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rather than teaching them. And that's really powerful. Um, because what that gives you is the
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distinction is it's like, okay, if I want this, if my job as a, as a manager, as a leader, as a parent,
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as a teacher, as a friend, as a human being, if my job is to help those around me
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get to the best version of themselves, how do I do that? And often it's about how can you ask the
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question that helps them have their own aha moment that helps them kind of step up and become the
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better version of themselves. So all of that just to say, it's not about necessarily the person's
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somehow screwed up or going wrong or, you know, they're just not very good. It's more about, it's more
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a self-management tool to say, how do you slow down your desire to tell them what to do? How do
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you, how do you help them get going on this? And again, another long answer to your question. If
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anybody's forgotten the question, because it was so long ago, it's like, how do you get going
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on this conversation? And you're right in the book, we, we talk about seven essential questions.
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And the very first question of the seven is the kickstart question, because we say it's a great way to
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start lots of different conversations. And the question is this, what's on your mind? And the
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reason why that question can be powerful is that it is open, you know, it's an invitation to the
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other person to kind of talk about what's there. But it's not, so you're giving them autonomy, and
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you're giving them status, and you're giving them stuff that neuroscience proves keeps people more
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engaged, and more honest in this conversation. But you're not saying to them, so just tell me
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anything you want. You're actually saying, tell me the thing that's exciting you, or worrying you,
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or kind of consuming you at the moment. Let's go there. Let's talk about something real. Because
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in the context of organizational life, we say this, if you can't coach in 10 minutes or less,
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you do not have time to coach. And what that means is you have to get into the real conversation fast.
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And that kickstart question, what's on your mind is a really powerful way to do just that.
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So would you say like, I mean, what's on your mind is, it's pretty open. I mean, they could just say,
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well, I got this going on at home, blah, blah, blah. I mean, would you, could you just kind of
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funnel in the direction, like what's on your mind about X project? Or is that something you could do to
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sort of guide the conversation? Because I can see people who were asked, what's on your mind,
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they just vomit out a whole bunch of stuff that's hard to suss out.
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Yeah, that's true. So I think often if you're meeting somebody, the context often arrives with
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it. You know, somebody comes into a meeting, I mean, I had a call the other day with somebody I'd
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never met before. And she's like, she just said in her email, I just want to talk about this book I'm
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writing. I'm having some difficulty with it. Can we have a quick chat? I was like, sure. I don't know
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who you are, but let's have a quick chat about it. And so she calls me up, we do two minutes,
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more talk. Hey, we know each other through Laurel. Isn't she awesome? She is awesome.
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I tell her I've read her previous book. It was awesome. So it's lots of nice sort of kind of
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connection. But then I'm like, okay, so you're talking about your current book. So what's on your
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mind? And even though she told me some of the stuff that was going on for her, I didn't presume
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that that was it. I didn't presume that that's what she wanted to talk about. I opened the floor
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to her and I said, what's going on, what's on your mind? And that was what got us from the surface into
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a deeper conversation almost immediately. Okay. So it's, again, you're staying curious. You're not,
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you're not going in with any assumptions. You got it.
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But then also in that section about asking what's on your mind, you wrote about, you know,
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sometimes it can be useful to distinguish between projects, people, and patterns when you're going
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through that. I mean, so how, what do you mean by projects, people, and patterns and how can that be
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useful? Yeah. So I created this as a little model just to help people go, these may be doorways into
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a conversation because let's take the friend I was talking to about the book. And I said, so what's
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on your mind? And she goes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And what I'm holding in
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my head is going, look, there are three different things that she could hit upon. One is the project
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itself. And in this case, it's how do I write a damn book? It's the thing that needs to be get done.
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It's the task. It's the collection of tasks. It's the outcome that you're working towards.
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And often if you ask what's on your mind, that's the easiest place for people to start because it's
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kind of external to them. It's like, here it is. Let me point you. Let me point you at the folder
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that is the source of my frustration and pain and annoyance right now. So that's useful.
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But in my head, I'm going, you know, there's often stuff about the people involved as well.
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So I could ask this friend, okay, so got that about the project and why that's frustrating,
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writing the book. How about the people? What's in your mind around what's going on with the people
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involved in this? And she could be going, oh, my editor, my designer, my roommate, my this, my that,
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all of that gets entangled. And that is pretty interesting as well. In fact, it often goes a
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little deeper because now we're talking about relationships.
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And then the third and final one, Brett, is about patterns. And it's about your own patterns
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of behavior that might be getting in the way. So if we wanted to go deeper into that conversation
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about so, you know, in terms of your own patterns, what's showing up here? She's like, oh, I've had,
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I'm a lifetime procrastinator. Oh, I don't like confrontation. Oh, I avoid that. I avoid the hard,
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great work if I'm trying to do it. Who knows? I mean, I'm just making all this stuff up.
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So it's a way of potentially deepening or expanding the conversation just to make sure that you're
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getting into the real stuff. Okay. And then does that work as a model for you?
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No, that, yeah, that's perfect. I love it. And, but even then, so you got this information. I think
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most people would be like, okay, thanks for telling me that here's what you need to do. Um, but you say
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that that shouldn't be the next thing that comes out of your mouth. Um, you should follow up with
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another question. What is that question? That's right. Well, you could follow up with any number
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of questions, but I think that one of the questions that can be really helpful for you
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is first of all, to do what Brett's beautifully articulated, which is to notice the surge within
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that says you should tell this person what to do because we all have it. It's a natural reaction.
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And you're like, Oh man, well now I understand what the real chat. Now I know what's going
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on for you. Okay. Well, let me give you some advice. But the truth is you don't really know
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what's going on yet. You've heard the kind of the opening lines, but the key inside to
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remember is that the first challenge is almost never the real challenge. So this is exactly
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what happened with this conversation with his author. I said, so what's on your mind? And
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she kind of went blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was like, wow,
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there's a lot going on here. And then I asked this next question, the one question you're
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asking about, which we call the focus question. And the focus question is this. So what's the
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real challenge here for you? What's the real challenge here for you? And the way that question
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is written or spoken really does matter because I could have said, so what's the challenge here?
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And I would have got an answer. It would have been an okay answer, but can we kind of firing
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from the hip? This is what the challenge is. I could upgrade that question and say, what's
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the real challenge here? And can you see how that already makes people have to work a little
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bit harder to figure out what's really going on for them? What's the real challenge here?
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But actually the way I, the final version of this question, what's the real challenge here
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for you? Adding for you is when the spotlight kind of swings from the challenge at hand to the person
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who's dealing with the challenge. And that's when the conversation can get a little deeper,
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a little more personal, a little more profound. So that can be a great question to follow up.
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Right. Because that forces them to think about what, well, what can they do about, I mean,
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maybe I would start thinking like, what can I do about these problems? A lot of the stuff when
00:22:47.360
you're writing a book, you really don't have much control over. But when you think about, okay,
00:22:51.720
what's the challenge for me, that kind of puts things back in the locus of your control.
00:22:56.600
Right. Exactly. And it also helps you move away from thinking about how do I blame others?
00:23:05.980
Because it's like easy to go, okay, I'm just going to blame Brett now for an hour and a half
00:23:10.620
to go. And what's the real challenge here for you? Well, it's not about
00:23:14.240
Brett or whoever else the other person is. It's actually about how do you deal with that person?
00:23:19.520
So it does, just as you perfectly said, swing the locus of the conversation back to the locus of
00:23:26.380
control. What are you up against? Not what's going on over there, but what are you up against right
00:23:31.680
now? What's the real challenge here for you? And now we can actually tackle
00:23:35.800
something that's real and tangible. Right. And even then, after the person has
00:23:40.300
begun to untangle what the real challenge is for them, you argue that you should follow up with the
00:23:46.700
question, and what else? Right. Because again, now they've told you what the real challenge is.
00:23:53.420
Now, the advice monster within that desperate need to tell people what to do, now it's alive.
00:23:59.960
You're like, oh, look how awesome I was. I asked them what's on their mind. Now I asked
00:24:04.580
them what's the real challenge here. Wow. Now I know what the real challenge is. Wow. My advice
00:24:09.260
is going to be fantastic. But actually, again, you probably haven't really heard what the real
00:24:13.840
challenge is. You probably heard a version of it or their first guess or sometimes something
00:24:19.420
completely different. So then you go, great. Okay. I got that. What else is a real challenge?
00:24:24.440
What else is a real challenge here for you? And then whatever the answer to that, you could follow
00:24:29.520
it up again by going, okay, so what else? What else is a real challenge here for you?
00:24:35.280
And then if you lean in one final time and go, okay, Brett, a lot going on here. Now you see all of
00:24:41.960
that. What's the real challenge here for you? I can promise you that almost nine times out of 10,
00:24:48.960
the answer to that second question, what's the real challenge here for you? It's going to be
00:24:53.520
different from their answer to the first time. What's the real challenge here for you? Different
00:24:59.560
and deeper and more personal. And that has a double impact. The first impact is this. It tells you that
00:25:06.680
if you were trying to solve the first problem, you'd be solving the wrong problem. Secondly, you need to
00:25:12.540
know that your advice actually isn't nearly as good as you actually think it is. So not only are you
00:25:18.140
solving the wrong problem, but you're trying to do so by offering up slightly useless advice.
00:25:23.300
So this is not a great way to show up in the world, the person who solves the wrong problem with not
00:25:28.200
very good advice. And just staying that little bit curious for a little bit longer just allows the
00:25:34.160
real challenge to actually evolve and show up. Yeah, I love that. It reminds me, I have a professor
00:25:40.160
friend who says, you have to ask a question three times to get a good answer from somebody.
00:25:45.720
I reckon there's some truth in that. Yeah. And he'll do that with his students. He won't say
00:25:50.640
the same thing over and over again, but he'll phrase it differently. And he says it every time
00:25:54.780
I do that. The first, the last answer I get is always better and always different from the first
00:26:00.480
answer they gave. I'm just hoping you're not going to apply that to us in this, this interview
00:26:04.920
right now. Right. I'm going to do it right now. And what else? Yeah, exactly. Michael. But I think
00:26:11.460
it's interesting too, that when you're asking these questions or when you're asking about the
00:26:16.740
problems of what's on their mind, you're not asking why, why is that a problem for you? You're
00:26:21.800
asking what is the problem? So I mean, why is it important to, I'm asking a why question. So why should
00:26:28.880
you stick to what questions and not do the why questions? How does that, how does that give you
00:26:33.820
different results? Yeah. Well, it could, you could ask me what's the trap in asking why questions?
00:26:40.100
There you go. So you're a pro at this. I'm a pro at it. Exactly. So I love that you brought this up
00:26:45.200
because it's something I bang on about in the book a little bit. And the first thing to say is there
00:26:50.440
are times when the why question can be really powerful. Lots of people have heard of the, the practice
00:26:56.540
known as the five whys. You know, somebody goes, I want to do this. And you go, well, why? And they
00:27:02.980
go, well, because of this. And you go, well, why? And then they go, well, okay, because of this. And
00:27:07.540
they go, well, why? And it's a way of quite powerfully getting to kind of some deep rooted
00:27:12.740
motivation. Perfect in certain circumstances. But for most of us, normal, normally in everyday
00:27:19.720
interactions, everyday conversations, the why question can be a bit of a trap. And I think it's got
00:27:26.360
two things about it that can lead people astray, make them less effective in their conversation.
00:27:32.380
And the first is this, simply to say, it is really hard to ask the why question without
00:27:38.240
it sounding slightly judgmental. You know, because why, why are you doing this? So often
00:27:44.700
comes across as, why the hell are you doing this?
00:27:48.320
Yeah. I do that with my kids a lot. And when I do it, I kind of like, that was a dumb question
00:27:53.000
to ask. Right. Well, you see what, what they're often, what you're actually asking people to
00:27:58.540
do is often justify. And now they're defensive. And now they're actually in the kind of lizard
00:28:04.840
brain, amygdala, fight or flight thing. And you've kind of lost the good heart of the conversation.
00:28:11.780
So that's the first reason. The second reason is more subtle. And it's this, when you ask
00:28:18.880
why, too often you're asking that not for your, not for the other person's sake, but for your
00:28:27.420
sake. Because here's what's going on in your head, kind of consciously or not. If I just find
00:28:33.580
out more details about what's going on with this issue, I'll be able to tell them what to
00:28:39.540
do. So the why question is about you gathering data rather than actually helping the other person
00:28:48.100
explore what's really going on. And if you, if you agree with the principle of the book and part of
00:28:54.640
one of the principles of the book is become a lazy coach, you know, stop working so hard. So you can
00:29:00.560
let the other person find their own path. You realize that actually asking why it just makes you work
00:29:06.660
harder because you're trying to solve the problem for them. And actually you might want to shift out
00:29:11.940
of that to say, what if I help you solve your own problem?
00:29:14.640
So I mean, what kind of other, what questions could you ask to help that process along? So,
00:29:19.960
you know, we've asked what's on your mind? What's the real challenge for you? What else? I mean,
00:29:25.480
are there other, what questions that could be helpful along this process? Like questions,
00:29:30.180
like what questions you would ask instead of saying, asking why?
00:29:32.920
Yeah. So I would, I would ask questions like, um, so what's at the heart of that? Um,
00:29:41.000
what's your best guess at why you took that path? Um, what was your thinking that made you react like
00:29:52.280
that? Um, and you know, they're, they're just subtle variations on that, but I do think that the,
00:29:59.360
by asking them, what was your, what was your thinking in working through that path? It's
00:30:05.720
actually valuable for the other person to figure out their thinking. So that's actually in service
00:30:09.960
of the other person. Right. I think it's better than why, because why will kind of muddle things
00:30:14.560
up and what forces the person to get kind of analytical about their thinking process?
00:30:19.740
Right. Yeah. So, you know, with everything I say on this podcast and in the book,
00:30:26.100
none of it is a definitive hard and fast that thou shalt not, because you can always find a reason
00:30:32.540
when, you know, asking why, for instance, might be a really smart thing to do. But, um, as a
00:30:38.200
principle, I certainly have gone, look, the simpler I can make this whole idea of coaching,
00:30:44.440
the better, you know, that's the goal of the book. The book was to go, what's the shortest book I
00:30:48.200
could write that would still be useful? What's the simplest way I can frame coaching that would
00:30:52.760
be useful? You know, it boils down to here's a habit, here's an understanding of a habit and a
00:30:57.440
habit formula. Here's seven great questions that will take you solidly down the path nine times out
00:31:03.800
of 10. And in doing that, you know, there's a quote from Einstein. He's like, things should be as
00:31:09.740
simple as possible and no simpler. So what I'm trying to do is go, look, here's something else you
00:31:15.560
might be able to eliminate from your regular conversation that will make it more powerful
00:31:19.740
and less effortful. Um, so we've been trying to, we've been trying to stave off the, the advice
00:31:28.440
monster as much as we can by asking these questions, but is there any, is there ever a moment, uh, when
00:31:33.740
you should step in and be like, here's what you need to do? Here's some advice, straightforward advice.
00:31:38.020
Yeah. Lots of times. Um, you know, there's a, there's a, uh, a Harvard business review by a guy
00:31:46.440
called Daniel Goleman. And Daniel Goleman is the, one of the kind of the guy who popularized emotional
00:31:51.180
intelligence. And he wrote a book based on this article as well, which I can't quite remember the
00:31:56.340
name of, might be primitive leadership or something like that. Anyway, he says, look, there are six
00:32:01.380
different styles of leadership. Um, there's a kind of pace setting one. There's a democratic one.
00:32:07.580
There's coaching. There's a few others as well. And great leaders actually know how to use all six
00:32:14.560
styles at the appropriate time in the appropriate way, because every style has its advantages and its
00:32:20.080
disadvantages. Coaching happens to be the least utilized of those leadership skills, even though it
00:32:27.060
has, you know, a range of great impacts, including on engagement and on the bottom line. But you know,
00:32:33.220
if the, if the building is burning down and Brett goes, Oh my God, Michael, the building's built,
00:32:39.520
burning down. It's not useful for me to go, Brett, how are you feeling about the building burning down?
00:32:46.320
And what else? Yeah. And what else is burning? Exactly. It's like, there's nothing useful about that at
00:32:51.580
all. It is. And part of your job, if you're in an organization is actually to bring your expertise
00:32:58.660
and experience to the forefront and use it in a wise way. And that's why we define coaching, not as
00:33:05.480
uh, never give anybody advice. It is simply, how do you stay curious just a little bit longer?
00:33:12.140
How do you rush to action and advice just a little bit slower? So it's a really specific
00:33:17.840
habit, you know, something that people can take away right away. You know, when somebody comes up
00:33:22.960
to you and goes, Hey, Michael, how do I, how do I do X? Here's my kind of habitual response. I'll go,
00:33:30.960
look, I've got some, I've got some thoughts on how to do that. And I'm going to share them with you for
00:33:35.740
sure. But before I tell you how I'd approach it, let me ask you, what, what are your first thoughts
00:33:40.680
on how to take that on? And whatever they say, I'm going to nod my head and probably agree with
00:33:46.040
them. And I'll go, I love it. What else could you do? And then what else could you do? And this is
00:33:51.560
great. Is there anything else you could do? Fantastic. I don't know. Is there, is there one
00:33:55.700
other thing you could do potentially to approach this? And so now they've actually gone through
00:33:59.880
the hard work of generating their own ideas and their own possibilities. But I may just go, so look,
00:34:05.600
I love all of those ideas. Let me give you one or two that occurred to me as you're saying this,
00:34:09.480
you could also do this and you could also do that. So there you go. You've got like five or six or
00:34:14.380
seven good ideas here. Um, which one do you like here? Which one, which one might you act on? You
00:34:19.060
know, which one do you want to put into play? So use advice, but use it a little slower than you
00:34:27.700
currently do because at the moment you over advise, you advise too quickly. And it means, as we said
00:34:34.140
before, you're, you're so often serving up not very good advice to solve what's probably not the real
00:34:39.840
problem. Right. And also think just giving the advice or making someone work to figure out the
00:34:45.260
problem themselves, they're more likely to act on it. Right. It's like whose advice, whose idea am I
00:34:50.900
likely to follow? The idea that my boss told me to do or the idea I came up for by myself? Well,
00:34:57.600
the actual answer is the idea you came up by yourself. Cause if I came up with it by myself,
00:35:00.940
I'm like, that's gotta be a pretty good idea. I thought of it. And if it was boss, you're like,
00:35:05.980
that's awesome. I don't need to tell him that idea. Cause they thought of it themselves. I get
00:35:09.860
to tell him a few other things and add value that way. Yeah. And cause I've noticed that in my own
00:35:14.560
life, you know, I've had experiences where people will come to me and ask like, Hey, can I have coffee
00:35:19.220
with you? Or I can ask you like how to start a blog. And I've done that in the past. And before I
00:35:23.880
would just kind of like do a dump, like, here's everything I did, yada, yada, yada. And then I would
00:35:28.520
follow up and be like, Hey, so what's going on with it? And they haven't done anything. And I think
00:35:32.700
there's two things going on there. Um, one is that they didn't have to work for it. Right. So
00:35:37.440
they didn't were able to internalize that. And also the advice I gave probably wasn't very useful
00:35:42.580
because when I started, my website was back in 2008 and the whole landscape is completely different
00:35:49.140
from what it is now. And so it's, I probably wasn't offering productive advice.
00:35:54.700
That may be the case. I mean, there may be, um, you know, who knows? Cause I've had,
00:36:02.080
I've had a thousand of those conversations as well. And, you know, honestly, they probably had
00:36:05.960
a similar result. Um, sometime people just don't want to act on, on stuff. They're like talking to
00:36:12.740
people about starting a blog is almost the same as actually starting a blog. And actually now I've
00:36:17.300
spoken to Brett, I realized how hard he works to make that successful. Huh? Now I'm even less
00:36:23.120
interested, but it's interesting. If they're like, so, you know, if they come to you and go, how do you
00:36:27.400
start a blog? And rather than launching into advice, you go, well, let me ask you, uh,
00:36:33.880
what's your objectives for the blog and how committed are you to, to creating a blog and
00:36:40.800
what's the real challenge here for you? Do you think in, in, in creating this blog and what else
00:36:46.060
is a challenge for you and what else? And so what's the real challenge at the heart of,
00:36:50.540
of getting going on a blog for you? Okay. Now you see the real challenge. You know,
00:36:55.860
what are your own ideas about how to actually tackle that and take that on? Great. And so I
00:37:00.640
love what you're thinking. Let me give you one or two pieces of ideas that I've learned from
00:37:04.460
starting a blog that might help you with that particular challenge. And it's actually a faster
00:37:10.000
conversation and it might be more to the point. Yeah. And so, I mean, these conversations can
00:37:14.760
happen quickly. I mean, how long did the conversation that you had with the lady about
00:37:19.080
her book, how long, how long did that take? Yeah. I'm going to say that the, the heart of it
00:37:23.680
was a 10 minutes. I mean, it can't have been very long cause I was sitting in an airport waiting to
00:37:28.420
catch a plane. So I didn't have a whole lot of time for this, but you're able to get something
00:37:32.820
productive for it. She's able to hone in on something and yeah. So we got to what I would
00:37:39.160
say is the heart of her issue. And then I was able to say, you know what? Um, this isn't actually
00:37:47.620
something that I'm that good at working on. I don't have that much information about it,
00:37:52.080
but let me give you the name of one or two or two people. It'd be really great resources for you
00:37:56.480
here. So I got to offer advice, but if we'd started where she wanted to start, I'd have given her
00:38:04.140
advice on something completely different. As it was, the, the conversation deepened and shifted,
00:38:12.220
became a bit more personal. And we got to something that was really kind of the bigger block,
00:38:17.560
the bigger issues she wanted to take on. And, you know, let's go to ending. Like,
00:38:23.360
so we're not going to call these conversations, I'm going to call it conversations, coaching
00:38:26.620
sessions just for a verbal place. Yeah. Shorthand. Yeah. Shorthand. Um, but an important part of
00:38:32.040
coaching is the followup, right? To ensure that, you know, what you've talked about or discussed
00:38:37.180
with your person, it's actually done. So how should, is there something you should, like a question
00:38:42.140
you should ask or something you should say at the end of this to, to ensure there's some
00:38:45.780
followup on what was discussed? Well, again, I'm going to, I'm going to say often followup
00:38:52.020
is an important part of coaching, but not always. Um, so it depends a little on the relationship
00:38:57.320
and the person and the, and what the context and what's going on. So for the woman I spoke to that
00:39:04.380
I've been talking about as I kind of thread through the story, there's no followup. Um, I'm at the end
00:39:11.120
of that. I said, is there anything, any other thing else I can help you with? She's like, no,
00:39:15.520
I've got what I need. I'm like, fantastic. Good luck. Bon voyage. And you know, I sent her
00:39:21.580
introductions to two people who I mentioned on the phone and then my work here was done.
00:39:27.680
Part of the nuance here is, is this. So one of the core principles and in the book and in the
00:39:36.900
programs we have is, you know, we'd say be lazy, which is really meant to be provocative because
00:39:42.780
lots of people aren't lazy. The people who listen to podcasts like yours, Brett, aren't lazy people
00:39:47.120
because they're keen, they're enthusiastic. They're trying to live better lives, but we often overwork
00:39:52.760
that to the detriment of our own lives and to the detriment of those that we run, we lead and we
00:39:57.080
influence. And one of the challenges with saying my job is to hold you accountable is that I've now made
00:40:04.380
it my job to check up on you. And sometimes that's great. Sometimes it turns into this weird policing
00:40:14.140
parental surveillance thing, which doesn't help anybody makes it kind of a burden to me and it
00:40:21.200
makes it a burden to you as well. So one of the things that I'll often ask at the end of a conversation,
00:40:28.800
I'll ask a couple of things. One is I'll often ask what we call in the book, the learning question,
00:40:33.900
where I get to go, hey, what was most useful and most valuable for you from this conversation?
00:40:39.740
So what that does is it forces somebody to kind of extract the value, get the aha moment that they
00:40:44.760
might otherwise miss. But the other thing I'll do is I'll go, so what else do you want from me,
00:40:50.580
if anything? How else can I help, if at all? And sometimes I'll make a request and sometimes I'll say,
00:40:56.840
you know, I've got what I need. And I'm like, that's fantastic. If it's somebody with a more specific
00:41:03.040
kind of relationship with me, like somebody on my team, for instance, I'll still ask them,
00:41:08.620
so what else do you want from me, if anything? And after they've told me, I'll go, okay, great.
00:41:15.060
So here's what I want from you. I'd like to see your first thoughts on this plan by Wednesday next
00:41:21.060
week. So I'll set a kind of objective that I'm looking for. Don't take on the burden of I need to
00:41:27.260
hold everybody else accountable because that can become a very heavy burden very quickly.
00:41:31.940
Definitely. My next question is related to that. You know, the sort of the system you've set up,
00:41:38.440
again, it's not sort of ironclad, but it's a great working system to use and fall back on.
00:41:43.260
It's easy and it can make coaching very easy. And it's so easy that I can see like you wanting to do
00:41:49.340
it all the time, right? And help as many people as you can. But again, that can be a burden. Like
00:41:55.340
you can overextend yourself. So how do you manage wanting to coach, wanting to help without
00:42:01.640
overextending yourself where it's bad for you and bad for the people you're trying to coach?
00:42:07.080
Yeah, it's another great, great question. The first thing to say is often a coach-like approach
00:42:13.620
can actually mean that you can manage more because you're not taking on everybody else's work for them.
00:42:19.340
And one of the burdens lots of people have is I feel like I'm responsible for my work and other
00:42:23.400
people's work as well. And that can be kind of quite crushing. And this frees you from that.
00:42:29.640
So that's the first thing to say, which is sometimes you actually, you can work with a lighter touch,
00:42:34.600
but with greater clarity and greater kind of structure and systems in place.
00:42:40.480
And then the other piece is going, you know, you get a yet another email going,
00:42:46.320
Brett, you're awesome. I love your podcast. Can you tell me how to set up a podcast, please?
00:42:52.280
And you're torn because you're a nice guy. You want to serve the world. Part of you goes,
00:42:58.140
yeah, I'll grab another coffee with you. Part of you goes, man, this is my ninth cup of coffee
00:43:03.220
in the last three days. A, I'm over-caffeinated. B, I seem to be giving a lot. And other people seem
00:43:11.200
to be taking a lot and it doesn't seem to be nourishing me. I'm making that up about you,
00:43:16.280
Brett, but you know, I've just put that out there. Sure. I've been there. Yeah.
00:43:20.140
Yeah. So I am really influenced by a writer called Adam Grant. He wrote a book called Give and Take.
00:43:29.440
He's got a new book out called The Originals, which is good without quite having the same impact on me
00:43:35.680
as that book Give and Take. And he says, look, there are actually three different ways you can
00:43:41.160
show up in the world. You know, it's a model. All models are wrong. Some are useful. He says,
00:43:46.680
look, you can be a giver. You can be a taker. Or you can be a, gosh, I've forgotten the label.
00:43:53.320
Basically, a reciprocity. You scratch my back, I'll scratch your back. And here's what he found.
00:43:59.660
He found that, after doing a ton of research, because his stuff is all research-based,
00:44:05.480
he found that in all sorts of different sectors and different roles and different jobs,
00:44:10.640
the people who failed most spectacularly at those jobs are in the bottom 10, 20 percent,
00:44:16.720
tended to be the givers. Because they tend to be the givers who had poor boundaries. So they would
00:44:23.220
deplete themselves. They'd become overwhelmed. They would give without realizing the price that they
00:44:29.380
were paying. And they wouldn't be able to do their own work or get what they wanted.
00:44:34.080
So actually, it's like, you know, you kind of, you suffer as a giver. But then here's the twist.
00:44:39.120
He also found that the people at the very top performers in those roles and in the sectors or
00:44:43.960
wherever, they too were the givers. But it was a different type of giving. It's a giving that went,
00:44:49.580
look, I will give as much as I can, but not in a way that will deplete me, overwhelm me,
00:44:56.000
ruin me. I'll give in a way that, or I'm not necessarily giving away that goes, I'm only
00:45:02.300
giving this because I'm pretty sure that you're going to give me something back in the next day
00:45:05.720
or week or whatever. It's giving kind of in that I'm putting out good stuff out to the universe.
00:45:12.280
I'm looking after myself and I'm making sure that I take what I need and I look after myself as well.
00:45:19.280
And all of this is a long, long answer to your question about how do you not become overwhelmed
00:45:24.200
if you're wanting to coach and support people? And the answer is you've got to figure out
00:45:27.880
what you want and what that means in terms of what your boundaries are, what you can and can't do.
00:45:34.780
And it comes down to actually, again, one of the questions we mentioned in the book,
00:45:38.040
we call it the strategic question, which is, what are you going to say no to?
00:45:42.500
So you can truly say yes to the stuff that you care most about.
00:45:45.600
Because as an example, again, made up example, but we're just kind of combining fiction with fact.
00:45:53.940
Every time you go out and have a coffee with somebody and spend an hour talking to them about
00:45:58.580
a blog or a podcast is an hour you don't get to do your great work in this world.
00:46:05.440
And sure, you serve somebody and you help somebody out in that coffee.
00:46:09.720
But is that the best way for you to have the impact you want to have in the world?
00:46:19.040
And the answer may be, yeah, it may be, yes, that is.
00:46:22.940
But for me anyway, what I discovered is at a certain point, I was feeling that wasn't.
00:46:28.760
And actually, the price I was paying for having coffee with somebody
00:46:31.860
was that I wasn't getting to write my book or whatever it might be.
00:46:36.340
Right. And that's a tough question to figure to answer.
00:46:41.640
Well, Michael, this has been a great conversation.
00:46:43.760
Where can people find out more about the book and the rest of your work?
00:46:50.320
So look, if you're interested in the book, obviously, it's available on Amazon and all
00:47:00.940
It has information about the book and there's a ton of free resources, videos and downloads
00:47:08.220
So regardless of whether you want to get the book or not, please do go to the website and
00:47:14.480
If you're kind enough to pick up a copy of the book and good enough to even read it, then
00:47:18.960
my request, if I may be bold, is to say a review on Amazon is always really appreciated.
00:47:25.540
I've got an audacious goal to get to a thousand reviews on Amazon.com.
00:47:29.860
And so if you had a chance to read it and are so inclined, a review there would be really
00:47:36.440
And if you're interested in the box of crayons kind of training programs, which we bring into
00:47:40.980
large organizations typically, then boxofcrayons, all one word, .biz, B-I-Z or B-I-Z, depending
00:47:55.700
My guest today was Michael Bungai-Stenger and his book is The Coaching Habits, available
00:48:01.020
You can also find more information about Michael's work at boxofcrayons.biz.
00:48:05.080
Also check out the show notes at aom.is slash coaching habit, where you can find links to
00:48:08.900
resources where you can delve deeper into this topic.
00:48:21.820
Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:48:25.100
For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at
00:48:29.120
Our show is edited by Creative Audio Lab here in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
00:48:32.080
If you have any audio editing needs or audio production needs, check them out at creativeaudiolab.com.
00:48:36.900
As always, we appreciate your continued support.
00:48:38.620
Reviews on iTunes or Stitcher really helps us out.
00:48:42.140
And until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.