The Art of Manliness - #266： The Myths and Truths of Distance Running

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast

00:00:18.400 well there are some people who absolutely love running and there are others who flee screaming

00:00:22.620 from the sport they hate how it feels they think it's a poor form of exercise because it overly

00:00:26.840 stresses the body causes tons of injuries and doesn't even help you lose weight are these

00:00:30.900 objections to running true well today i talk with competitive runner jason fitzgerald to get his

00:00:35.040 answers jason is a usa track and field certified coach and has finished first in marathons and

00:00:39.540 obstacle course races across the country he's also the owner of strength running a website that

00:00:43.820 provides coaching and programming for long distance runners who want not only to get faster but become

00:00:48.360 stronger and more durable and today on the show jason and i discuss some of the myths about long

00:00:53.040 distance running that keep people away from the sport why runners often neglect strength training

00:00:57.280 like barbell exercises but they shouldn't and what programming should look like when first starting

00:01:01.180 out with running as well as when you want to get more competitive whether you're a veteran runner

00:01:04.660 someone who's made a new year's gold or trained for a 5k or a marathon or think you don't want

00:01:08.780 anything to do with the sport you'll find this an interesting show it's maybe convinced me to put

00:01:12.780 down my barbell now and again and go for a run maybe all right after the show's over check out the

00:01:17.360 show notes at aom.is strength running where you can find links to resources where you can delve deeper

00:01:22.240 into this topic jason fitzgerald welcome to the show thanks so much for having me so you are a

00:01:33.140 long distance runner um competitive yourself you also coach other long distance runners you have a

00:01:39.000 site called strength running and what i love about uh your approach to running you've written content for

00:01:44.580 our site about strength training running preventing injuries during running and obstacle training for

00:01:49.520 obstacle course racing but i love how you emphasize strength training uh in running unlike a lot of

00:01:55.000 other i mean sometimes i feel like runners just overlook the importance of strength and we'll get

00:01:58.100 into the details of uh strength training how you incorporate that into a running program but let's do

00:02:04.960 some defense here like i there's some people who just don't like running like long distance running

00:02:10.600 uh and i'll admit i'm one of those guys i like to sprint um i like doing obstacle course racing but the

00:02:16.300 idea of running you know a 10k a marathon just like ah i don't know if i want to do that uh what do you

00:02:24.140 think are some of the reasons that people hate running or think they hate running good question and uh you

00:02:32.000 know i'll be the first one to say that i didn't always like running either i was the kid in middle

00:02:36.640 school during track and field week that was throwing the shot put and trying to do you know the 100 meter

00:02:43.680 hurdles instead of doing the mile run i just tried to avoid it at you know at every opportunity um but

00:02:49.740 it definitely is a a learned passion and i think um you know a lot of people don't like running because

00:02:56.660 they don't really give it a chance you know just like any sport it takes a few months to acclimate

00:03:01.760 and get used to it and really become proficient enough at it where every single run is not a struggle

00:03:09.260 so imagine if you're a strength athlete brett if you go into the gym someone who's never lifted

00:03:14.940 before and you try to do a clean and jerk you probably aren't going to be very good at it you're

00:03:20.500 probably going to hurt yourself if you put too much weight on there and it's just really not going to

00:03:24.820 happen and i think a lot of people take that same principle and try to apply it to running they go

00:03:30.180 for a couple runs and then they try to run a 5k or a 10k and they realize wow this is a lot harder

00:03:35.720 than it seems and i don't know if i like it um the other thing that i see really i see it all the time

00:03:42.880 is that runners try to make running too hard um they don't have a purpose to their training they're

00:03:48.240 not very strategic and most of their runs kind of end up being either hard or this kind of moderate

00:03:54.980 effort where they don't have any easy runs they don't have any recovery runs and without that kind

00:04:01.200 of balanced approach they're destined to either get hurt or get overtrained uh there's a lot of

00:04:07.780 problems that come with making your running harder than it has to be um and with all that said i am

00:04:13.760 not in the business of getting people to like running um if you don't like running that's fine go find

00:04:19.180 something that you do enjoy that uh gets you motivated to get out and exercise and live a healthier

00:04:25.500 lifestyle but you know if you're not someone who enjoys running then you know first i'd say give

00:04:30.900 it a chance let's do it the right way let's do it with a proper structure to your training but you

00:04:36.380 know at the end of the day if it's not for you then that's totally fine yeah i can admit i'm one of those

00:04:40.620 people that not having a program when i've run in the past i'm just like okay i'm gonna go for a jog

00:04:46.340 today and i didn't know what i was supposed to be doing and i was like okay the next time okay i'll try

00:04:51.120 to do a little bit faster or do i should i go longer i have no clue and the lack of direction

00:04:56.280 really threw me for a loop it sounds like me in the gym so i have this exact same problem when it

00:05:02.660 comes to strength training because you know i get in the gym and i don't really like to lift very much

00:05:08.400 i would so much rather run 10 miles than go in the gym and lift for 45 minutes so if i'm the same

00:05:15.060 way if i don't have a program if i don't really understand why i'm doing what i'm doing then i'm just

00:05:20.140 going to get in the gym and you know kind of randomly do some strength work but it's not in

00:05:25.060 a systematic way that's really going to help me develop the habit of lifting just like it's so

00:05:30.320 important to develop the habit of running over you know a long period of time uh and so i think no

00:05:35.940 matter if you're a runner or if you like to lift weights you have to have a program and it needs to

00:05:40.100 be a good program well let's talk about that uh sort of programming before we get into some of these

00:05:44.640 other questions to me what does running programming like what does programming for running look like

00:05:49.300 say if you're a beginner like someone's listening to this like yeah i want to run a 5k what would

00:05:54.480 programming look like for that now are we talking about just the running itself or the the strength

00:06:00.680 work in addition to that let's let's talk both i mean let's talk about running first and how you

00:06:04.680 would incorporate um the strength training into that sure well i think it all comes down to the level

00:06:11.520 of whatever runner we're talking to so if this runner is a total beginner uh they haven't really gone

00:06:18.280 for any kind of runs in let's say six months or a year or in other words a long time then you know

00:06:24.420 the first real principle of a good training plan is simply developing that consistent habit they really

00:06:31.180 just need to get into the good routine of going out let's say three times a week for uh you know i

00:06:37.160 would say 20 to 30 minutes and then after a couple weeks you know we can really start ramping that up

00:06:42.160 and they get to get into 45 minute runs and then maybe after two or three months they can start

00:06:47.080 getting into you know 60 to 90 minute runs but it has to be done in a progressive way you know we can't

00:06:54.180 increase mileage too quickly uh we can't introduce too much intensity too quickly um and intensity is

00:07:00.900 really the the speed of your runs um and i think a lot of runners try to just go out and i'm gonna run

00:07:07.720 three miles and i'm gonna try to do it a little bit faster than the run before it and this isn't

00:07:12.380 really a strategic approach to getting in better shape and improving and improving upon a race time

00:07:19.680 for example so the programming for a true beginner is really about consistency with running and that's it

00:07:28.060 and the more advanced you are the more advanced things you can then do you can get into more complex

00:07:33.120 workouts you can do long runs you can do race specific types of long runs where you know let's

00:07:39.180 say for the marathon you're including some goal marathon pace at the end of a 20 mile run now that's

00:07:45.000 admittedly very advanced that's a very advanced thing to do um you know a new 5k runner isn't going

00:07:50.900 to do something like that but in terms of general programming we really want to make sure the runner is

00:07:56.000 starting where they are right now not where they want to be or not where they used to be

00:08:01.700 say 10 years ago when they were a teenager or before they had kids and worked long hours

00:08:06.960 so knowing where you are now and having that level of self-awareness is really critical and then from

00:08:13.040 there you just take the next logical step you know maybe you increase your mileage by five or ten percent

00:08:18.600 every two or three weeks and you go from there you just very gradually increase the volume you

00:08:25.180 tentatively add intensity to the program so that you can um really work on uh not only speed but also

00:08:33.080 kind of the race specific endurance that you need to finish uh a good 5k or 10k so it sounds very similar

00:08:39.040 to weight training programming so you want to have you want to add that stress and there's different

00:08:43.680 types of stress you can add volume or intensity uh volume for weight lifting is is the repetitions

00:08:49.560 intensity is weight um so you have like a volume day where you maybe run long distance then you

00:08:54.620 might have an intensity day and then in weight training you have like a back off day where you

00:08:58.440 might allow yourself to recover same exact principles in running exactly it's funny um i think we have a

00:09:04.920 mutual friend in steve cam and he runs the site nerd fitness and last year i was a guest instructor at

00:09:10.780 his camp and it's funny we had a programming class where i was with um two strength athletes and coaches

00:09:17.820 who were talking about how to program for lifting so this was a power lifting focus you know how to

00:09:24.100 lift more than you know you can lift a month ago for example and it was almost exactly the same all the

00:09:31.240 same principles are at play with running that are at play with strength training you know it's the stress

00:09:37.560 adaptation cycle you want to introduce the stress to the body let the body recover and then in doing so

00:09:44.380 it super compensates and allows you to get stronger faster with more endurance okay well before we get

00:09:50.700 into the strength training part of um you know training for running let's talk some of the myths that

00:09:56.180 exist about distance running um one of those that is out there is that people say distance running

00:10:01.760 diminishes muscle mass and so like i'm not going to do that because i don't want to be skinny uh

00:10:07.660 sinewy little guy like i want to be strong want to be feet is that true does distance running

00:10:11.180 diminish muscle mass uh it certainly can i mean distance running is catabolic so in other words

00:10:16.660 it it breaks down muscle mass um but so does any endurance oriented form of exercise so you know if

00:10:24.120 you're walking the appalachian or hiking the appalachian trail uh that's a catabolic activity you're

00:10:29.820 probably going to lose muscle mass the same thing is true for uh the elliptical or swimming or cycling

00:10:35.000 um so you know any endurance sport is really working on the cardiovascular system as opposed to

00:10:41.640 you know the the muscular side of things and you know most runners really don't even have to worry

00:10:47.700 about this because um they're just not really going to lose any muscle mass if they start if they start

00:10:53.080 running now it is problematic for let's say runners who are over 40 uh or those running very high mileage

00:10:59.580 or high intensity running programs these runners must include strength training in their in their

00:11:05.400 programming if they want to maintain muscle mass um now of course with that said i think every runner

00:11:11.440 should include strength training in their running program because the benefits are undeniable um but

00:11:17.340 you know those two types of runners have to include some strength training if preserving muscle mass is one

00:11:23.340 of their goals um and more common it's really that running is going to prevent additional gains in

00:11:29.940 mass so for you know the average 30 40 year old guy you know you're not going to lose muscle mass if

00:11:37.420 you train for a 10k for example presumably this type of athlete is also going to continue lifting weights

00:11:44.380 at the gym in addition to any running training that they're doing they're not going to put on 20 pounds

00:11:48.940 of muscle during that you know say three month training period for example but you know they're

00:11:53.680 not going to lose muscle mass um and and i think for the runners who are trying to combine two opposing

00:12:00.920 goals like say gaining 10 pounds of muscle and training for a marathon then you know we're kind of in a

00:12:07.460 situation where um you know your goals are at odds with each other and you're probably going to fail at

00:12:13.200 both um so it's it's definitely something that i think should concern uh older runners

00:12:18.940 and it should concern uh particularly older runners who are more competitive because more competitive

00:12:23.920 athletes are going to tend to run higher mileage they're going to have more intensity in their

00:12:29.060 training program so these are the runners that are most at risk for actually losing muscle mass

00:12:34.920 and potentially getting injured because of that so for those groups it's definitely more important

00:12:39.740 to include more traditional strength training say lifting in the gym so you know again like this goes back

00:12:45.800 to your whole website strength running um your big proponent of runners incorporating strength

00:12:49.940 training into their running programming why do you think most runners shy away from weights though i mean

00:12:56.380 i i i know a lot of runners and a lot of them just they don't it doesn't interest them they're just

00:13:00.240 incorporating i'm putting the miles um but why do you think those runners shy away when they might

00:13:05.580 stand to benefit from strength training yeah uh well i think the the number one reason is that

00:13:12.340 runners like to run they don't like to lift and i'm such a great example of that even though my wife

00:13:17.360 jokes around and calls me a core whore because i'm always doing some strength you know body weight

00:13:22.000 strength work i don't really like to go to the gym um like i said i'd rather go run 20 miles than

00:13:28.360 spend an hour lifting weights in the gym um but you know i i think you know there's there's this

00:13:35.240 misconception that runners don't lift well runners who don't train properly don't lift and if if you're

00:13:42.800 programming smart training for runners you're definitely going to include some strength training

00:13:47.660 there um you know if you look at you know why more specifically runners don't lift i think it's just an

00:13:53.660 ignorance of of proper training uh and you know if if runners understood the the long list of benefits

00:14:00.160 from strength training then they're definitely going to include it in their program if they want

00:14:05.520 to become a better runner and what are the benefits of strength training for a runner oh there's so many

00:14:10.760 i mean the benefits of strength training for runners are are enormous and and if you're a runner and you

00:14:16.600 are getting in the gym say once or twice a week to do some weight lifting you're including also some

00:14:23.800 more runner specific body weight exercises you're going to have a faster finishing kick so this is how

00:14:29.740 fast you're able to actually finish a race uh your form is going to be more economical in other words

00:14:35.120 you're you're going to be more efficient uh and use less energy to maintain the same pace uh your

00:14:41.380 recovery from long runs and fast workouts is going to be faster you're going to have higher testosterone

00:14:46.780 and your risk of a repetitive stress injury uh is going to be dramatically lower so you know any

00:14:53.360 runner who listens to that and then says i'm not going to lift weights uh is doing themselves a

00:14:57.620 disservice so what does a strength training program look like for running what sorts of exercise

00:15:01.780 should a runner be doing great great question and and i think the basics work the best you know squats

00:15:08.340 deadlifts those are probably the two best exercises for runners and then of course there's

00:15:13.640 many different variations on those that you can do in in the weight room um i think you know when it

00:15:19.640 comes to programming strength training for runners you know i think you need to look at it in two

00:15:24.540 different ways there's there's number one more traditional strength training and that's i think

00:15:29.860 what people think of when they think of strength work this is lifting weights doing squats doing

00:15:35.680 deadlifts uh really racking up the weight and trying to lift heavy uh and for distance runners you know

00:15:41.840 there's also this weird misconception that i don't understand that runners are going to get in the gym

00:15:46.700 and they're going to lift for 15 or 20 repetitions because they're lifting for endurance they want

00:15:51.700 muscular endurance but the problem is we get enough muscular endurance from running you know we're

00:15:57.480 we're running all the time we don't need extra muscular endurance from lifting what we do need

00:16:03.380 is power what we do need is strength and we get that from lifting heavy weights so when you see runners

00:16:10.100 in the gym they should be doing squats and deadlifts and other strength exercises that are um you know the

00:16:17.840 they're they're basic fundamental multi-joint compound movements but they also should have

00:16:22.940 relatively heavy weight on there depending upon you know the athlete's weight and and ability and

00:16:28.220 kind of absolute strength but those are the kind of the best uh strength and power exercises for

00:16:34.760 runners now most runners if they're ready to jump into a program like that you know twice a week i think

00:16:40.980 is is a good baseline for how many times they should be lifting in the gym uh but then in addition to

00:16:46.760 that and this is the other side of things uh this is really the more injury prevention uh and uh more

00:16:53.960 postural stability side of things and that's where we get into runner specific strength exercises in

00:17:00.540 here there's a lot of core work uh and of course core does not mean just your abs it's you know i like

00:17:05.460 to say it's from your knees to your nipples it's everything from your hip flexors to your hips

00:17:09.760 your glutes your hamstrings your obliques your lower back so it really does encapsulate the entire

00:17:16.160 trunk of a runner and that postural stability is really important for injury prevention mainly

00:17:23.380 because you know most injuries happen because runners get tired and when they're tired their running

00:17:29.700 form falls apart and when your running form falls apart at the end of a race at the end of a long run

00:17:35.200 or fast workout that's when you develop all these abnormal movement patterns and you become a lot

00:17:40.920 less efficient and that's when you start running in a certain way that really predisposes you

00:17:47.220 to overuse injuries uh and so in addition to kind of avoiding what i would call the three twos which is

00:17:53.560 doing too much mileage at too fast a pace too soon before you're ready for it um you know trying to

00:18:00.080 develop more postural stability is going to really help with injury prevention um so going back to

00:18:05.300 frequency if you're lifting twice a week in the gym then you should also be following all of your

00:18:11.980 other uh running sessions with you know i would say about 15 minutes of more runner-specific body weight

00:18:18.620 strength exercises and i have you know an easy way for runners to remember to do this is to remember

00:18:23.780 that every run should be sandwiched between a dynamic warm-up and a runner-specific core or strength

00:18:31.780 routine and then in addition to that you would go to the gym twice a week uh and say you know lift

00:18:36.980 more traditional uh weights with more traditional exercises so it's kind of an idea is trying to lay

00:18:43.680 this out big picture so it'd be like you'd run monday wednesday friday then tuesday thursday you're in

00:18:48.940 the gym lifting sure that that schedule works okay i mean so is that enough it's like monday wednesday

00:18:55.440 friday enough for i know some people they do it every day well that's a good question and it really

00:19:00.920 depends on your definition of enough uh if you want to finish your local 5k in in a month then sure

00:19:07.460 that's enough but you know if you want to see what you're capable of if you want to see what your

00:19:12.620 potential might be as a runner then you know the general principle of run as much as you can holds

00:19:19.120 true in this situation so if you are trying to become a competitive runner if you want to run at the

00:19:25.360 college level and compete at university uh if you want to be an age grouper and win age group awards or

00:19:32.080 you know try to win some local races then you know the more you can run the better runner you're going

00:19:37.540 to be uh now with that said the more that you run the more important strength work becomes because it's

00:19:43.340 almost like it's balancing out the catabolic effects of high mileage so yes it can be very dangerous if

00:19:50.520 you're running 100 miles a week or something crazy like that and you're not doing any strength work

00:19:55.000 because you're way more predisposed to injuries uh but if you're running a lot then you have to be in

00:20:01.640 the gym you have to be doing some body weight work uh if for you to stay healthy it's absolutely

00:20:06.000 critical so let's talk about another criticism levied at uh in distance running is that it's you know it

00:20:12.100 causes you know the body an unhealthy amount of inflammation and stress i mean there's been these

00:20:16.120 studies you know people who just keel over who look you know completely healthy they look in shape

00:20:21.040 but after a marathon they just keel over from a heart attack um and then come to find out they

00:20:25.700 just had just had so much inflammation um what's the thing behind that idea and what's your response

00:20:30.580 to that claim yeah so i there's a lot of different ways that we can talk about this the thing with the

00:20:36.540 issue about runners you know dying at a marathon uh that is i think anytime you have 30 to 40

00:20:43.920 thousand people competing in a grueling event and the marathon is grueling you know there's no doubt

00:20:50.460 about it it's 26.2 miles you're running on concrete or asphalt and it's very jarring on the body uh you

00:20:58.140 know the studies have shown that the the depths from marathon running are really because not because of

00:21:05.040 the event itself but because of you know abnormal defects in that runner's particular heart so when they

00:21:11.280 when they get to a level where they're very stressed at mile 23 or 25 of marathon that's when issues

00:21:18.440 start to happen with their heart but when it comes to inflammation um that's it's true running running

00:21:24.540 does produce inflammation uh but i think it's it's helpful to know that any hard exercise is going to

00:21:29.860 produce inflammation um and and it's not necessarily bad uh inflammation is actually necessary for that

00:21:36.540 whole adaptation process if you want to become a stronger strength athlete you're you're you want

00:21:42.980 some add up you want some uh inflammation because if there was no inflammation your body would not get

00:21:48.280 as strong or as as fast now unhealthy amounts of inflammation uh usually occur much more often when

00:21:56.020 you're running either very high mileage or high intensity uh or both with insufficient recovery so you

00:22:03.100 know and this isn't necessarily specific to runners you know if you try to play five games of ultimate

00:22:08.900 frisbee every day for a week or you participate in the crossfit games you're going to experience an

00:22:14.760 unhealthy amount of inflammation uh that's just kind of the nature of hard exercise uh so but when it

00:22:21.240 comes to runners you know it kind of gets to the fact that most runners are not training appropriately

00:22:26.500 you know you look at you know i i think there's this straw man argument that you know is kind of

00:22:31.540 popular in the crossfit world that runners are weak they're all on the treadmill every day just

00:22:36.480 running for 45 minutes or an hour at this kind of medium moderate intensity well that's just not

00:22:42.340 how runners should be training and you're never going to find a high school or a college cross

00:22:47.480 country or track team training that way you're never going to find a professional runner training

00:22:51.860 that way uh and i think if we all trained more like college level athletes or professional

00:22:57.560 athletes scaled back of course then we'll all be healthier with normal levels of inflammation that

00:23:03.540 prompt that adaptation process and help us become better but at the same time you know we need to

00:23:08.940 make sure that we're recovering properly if we're training really hard uh and we're doing everything

00:23:14.320 we can to uh minimize unhealthy levels of inflammation while also recognizing that inflammation to a certain

00:23:21.420 degree is our friend it's what helps us get faster right so i mean we kind of touched on

00:23:27.180 injuries a little bit but another reason people shy away from running is that uh the injury like

00:23:31.820 they're afraid to get into the you know the bum knee the you know the hamstrings they pull a hammy

00:23:36.700 does is does running have a pretty high injury rate and if so what can what are the most common

00:23:42.860 injuries to running and i think you mentioned the exercise you can do to prevent that but anything

00:23:46.340 else that people can do to prevent those types of injuries right so unfortunately the injury rate

00:23:52.820 is pretty high among runners you know some some studies put it at roughly 70 of runners will get

00:23:59.200 hurt this year and every year uh and that's enormous i mean that's higher than professional football

00:24:04.100 and so i think there's a lot of reasons for that so number one is probably probably because

00:24:09.540 running is an impact sport and it does require some skill and most people think that it's easier than

00:24:16.320 that so you know people who are just getting into the sport of running kind of they just they train

00:24:22.140 in unsafe ways and it leads them to fall victim to those three twos that i mentioned before running

00:24:28.020 too much too soon too fast so i think training errors is the number one reason why runners get

00:24:34.420 get hurt because you know they think that running is much more simple and uh easier than it really is

00:24:41.720 uh the other reason is that runners you know we tend to be type a people you know we don't listen

00:24:46.780 to our body if we're sore or if something you know we have a little niggle or something's bothering us

00:24:52.300 uh we're very goal oriented and we look at you know that 10k that we're training for next month or

00:24:58.120 the fact that we're chasing a boston marathon qualifying time and we know that if we have if

00:25:03.320 we take three days off from training that's going to compromise our fitness and we might not reach our

00:25:08.880 goals so we try to push through things even when we shouldn't and and i think this is

00:25:13.600 such a big mistake that i see all the time you know it's funny you know i'm a running coach and i

00:25:18.960 think a lot of people see my job as you know the you know the boot camp instructor i'm yelling at

00:25:24.780 everyone do another lap let's go faster where in fact a big part of my job is reining runners in

00:25:31.320 telling them that it's okay to take an extra day off it's okay to cut a workout short it's fine we must

00:25:38.080 listen to our body and really calm down a little bit and not push ourselves so hard um and then of

00:25:44.680 course the other part of it and uh you know this resonates with me is that runners tend to dislike

00:25:49.580 strength training and strength training is a perfect complement to running and it very much is included

00:25:56.480 in smart training for runners so you know i think if if you combine all these things together

00:26:02.820 runners who aren't strength training they're very goal oriented so they don't listen to their

00:26:07.120 bodies as much and you know they kind of think that running is easy so they just kind of run and

00:26:12.400 i'm going to run 30 minutes and then next week i'm going to run 60 minutes and next thing you know

00:26:16.220 they're running way too much before they're ready for it um you know that's why the injury rate is

00:26:20.740 really high uh so it's it's a big it's a big issue but i think if runners were to structure their

00:26:26.560 training a little bit more intelligently add in some strength work and listen to their body

00:26:31.000 the injury rate would be far lower than it currently is does uh running form have any

00:26:36.500 role in that as well the injury rate yeah it does uh running form is definitely important uh i think

00:26:42.740 what we've learned in the last you know maybe five or ten years of research is that it's not

00:26:47.060 as important as we thought you know i think you know born to run the you know kind of famous

00:26:53.020 running book that came out in about 2009 or 2010 it got everyone to think about running form

00:26:57.920 and it really pushed a lot of people to run in either very minimalist shoes or even try some

00:27:03.460 barefoot running um but you know i think what we learned from that is that you know the pendulum

00:27:08.260 swung way to the side of minimalist shoes and and really focusing on that element of of form uh which

00:27:16.640 demonized heel striking and now we're learning that well heel striking isn't necessarily bad the the

00:27:23.500 problem is if you're an aggressive heel striker who's also over striding and over striding is when

00:27:30.560 you land a lot further ahead of the rest of your body and ideally you would land directly underneath

00:27:37.160 your body so underneath your hips underneath your center of mass and if you do that it's really hard

00:27:43.120 to over stride and it's really hard to aggressively heel strike and so if runners um uh reduce their

00:27:52.160 over striding and in addition to that increase their cadence which is the number of steps that you take

00:27:57.300 per minute to you know i would say roughly 170 or more while they're running at an easy effort then

00:28:04.700 that's going to take care of almost every running form flaw that is common among runners it seems like

00:28:10.940 the cadence could be helped by strength training again i guess it's a power uh issue i mean i feel

00:28:15.960 like if you had more power you could increase that cadence a little bit faster am i wrong in thinking that

00:28:19.740 uh good question and and i'm not sure either way uh cadence is really um you know a lot of runners

00:28:27.060 struggle with increasing their cadence because you know they just end up running faster and one of the

00:28:33.180 best ways to kind of increase your cadence while at the same time running the same pace so let's say

00:28:38.580 you're running nine minutes per mile and you realize your cadence is 155 steps per minute well you can set

00:28:45.440 a treadmill for nine minute mile pace and then play with your cadence you're not going to be able to

00:28:50.480 run faster than that pace uh unless you kind of plow straight through the treadmill um and that's a

00:28:56.240 really good way to do it but brett i'm not actually sure if strength training has a direct effect on

00:29:02.120 your cadence okay well that's that's a great idea that was kind of a mind twerp to get the mind

00:29:06.500 get my mind around because like your cadence is different from your pace and that's it's kind of hard to

00:29:11.920 you think if you increase your cadence you actually increase your pace that's what most people want to

00:29:15.700 do when they increase their cadence right and you know it's interesting if you the opposite side of

00:29:21.200 taking uh more steps per minute is taking longer steps and so there's really only two ways to run

00:29:27.580 faster you take faster steps or you take longer steps now a lot of people try to take longer steps

00:29:33.300 by reaching out in front of them and then they're over striding their heel striking that's not how we want

00:29:37.980 to do it how we want to lengthen our stride is to impart more force into the ground and if you're

00:29:45.140 doing that then you're going to have a longer stride because your swing phase is going to be longer so

00:29:51.920 your trail leg is going to swing behind your body uh if you have good hip extension then you know that's

00:29:58.240 a really nice movement and uh you're going to cover a lot more ground with every single stride that you

00:30:04.120 take and strength training will help with that uh so if you're doing heavy squats in the gym then

00:30:09.840 you're you're much more likely to have a more powerful stride and that's one of the reasons why

00:30:14.800 heavy weight lifting is able to give you a faster finishing kick you're able to recruit more muscle

00:30:20.320 fibers so that you know when it comes to to actually draw upon those muscle fibers you can use them to run

00:30:27.480 faster so a lot of people take up running to lose weight lose drops in fat but you see plenty of

00:30:34.100 runners out there who've been running for months uh who still got the gut right the little panza

00:30:40.000 that's how you say it in spanish what's going on there why is it that you can be just running just

00:30:44.760 every single day but you're not able to drop the the fat or drop the weight right i mean i i think

00:30:52.900 you can find out of shape looking people who are involved in in running and strength training

00:30:57.840 cycling whatever uh it's not i don't think specific to running itself uh and the reason is because

00:31:04.500 running is not a cure-all you know if you you can be a runner and also be overweight uh diet is a lot

00:31:11.200 more important within exercise when it comes to weight loss um and and there's also this there's this

00:31:17.200 weird trend in the running world where you know you have these recreational runners who you know they run a

00:31:22.820 local 5k so you know they're loading up on pasta the night before they're having uh you know an

00:31:30.780 energy bar and a bagel before their 5k and then afterwards they're going to have a gatorade treat

00:31:36.280 themselves to a cookie of course maybe the race is giving away even more bagel so they have another

00:31:41.620 bagel next thing you know in a 12-hour window this person has had 800 grams of carbohydrate and they've

00:31:46.600 only run 3.1 miles so there's definitely runners who treat themselves to way more processed carbohydrates

00:31:54.660 than they should um and that's that's a big contributor to the fact that running is not

00:32:00.700 necessarily going to slim you down uh because diet is a much more prominent um factor in weight loss

00:32:09.020 uh the the other issue i think is is just inactivity so you know you might run 40 miles a week say but

00:32:17.220 if you're spending the rest of your time sitting down then you might still be soft uh you also have

00:32:22.500 to live just an active lifestyle uh and not just be totally sedentary for the other 23 hours of a day

00:32:31.920 when you're not running so let's talk about diet a bit um because that's sort of there's been a lot of

00:32:36.940 discussion about that the best diet for uh distance runners you have mark sisson who's advocating you

00:32:42.680 know high fat diets like very little carbs then there's that idea that no you need to carbo load

00:32:47.360 like your body needs glycogen or glucose to like fuel these long distance runs so what's your approach to

00:32:52.920 dieting and and running training yeah so really i think it's not necessarily an either or discussion

00:33:02.040 you can do both you can uh of course eat a low carbohydrate diet if you're not running very much

00:33:09.760 but you know carbohydrate is fuel and it is the body's preferred fuel source uh you're not going

00:33:15.800 to find any world-class runners eating a paleo diet uh when you get to you know 100 mile ultra marathon

00:33:24.580 runners you might find some at the world-class level who are experimenting with a high fat low

00:33:31.900 carbohydrate diet uh but that's because the intensity level of an ultra marathon at that level

00:33:37.240 is so low and you don't use as much uh percentage of carbohydrate at that level so you know it lends

00:33:44.900 itself more to that kind of an approach but for the average person not only does it take you know at

00:33:51.460 least six months or so to adapt to the high fat low carbohydrate diet but you know it's kind of a

00:33:57.980 difficult transition you're going to be cranky it's like giving up coffee you know you know the human

00:34:03.080 body uh prefers carbohydrate it is you know the glucose is the preferred fuel source for the brain

00:34:09.120 it's the preferred preferred fuel source for any um high intensity exercise and i think it all comes down

00:34:16.920 to a runner's goals so if you're running very low mileage if you're running um not necessarily a very

00:34:23.800 high intensity program then high fat low carbohydrate diet might work really well for you

00:34:29.480 uh now if you're a marathoner if you're running relatively high mileage then carb loading is going

00:34:36.180 to be very beneficial uh particularly for the race itself uh carb loading has been shown to increase

00:34:41.980 performance uh there have been you know some researchers uh in britain followed several uh i think

00:34:49.060 it was 200 london marathoners from a few years ago and they found that the runners who carb loaded the

00:34:55.440 most ran the fastest and those that didn't carb load ran the slowest and so it was this very clear

00:35:01.440 trend with carbohydrate consumption and your overall finish time um and i think when it comes to you know

00:35:08.340 just you know overall diet for for distance runners you know it's it's about fundamentals it's about

00:35:14.340 um you know the basics whole foods less processed foods and you know try to avoid refined sugars as

00:35:20.940 much as you can and really about balance you know you don't want to have meals that are strictly

00:35:26.180 carbohydrate because then you're going to be hungry an hour later you want to um you know try to include

00:35:31.180 the major macronutrients in your program uh in your eating program because that's going to leave you

00:35:37.240 fuller for longer it's it's more healthy all around and i think it's going to be better for not only

00:35:43.240 your performance but also for your recovery too kind of piggybacking off this idea of you know

00:35:47.940 carbohydrates versus fat um you know there's a lot of advocates out there i think chris mcgoogle

00:35:52.840 mark sisson they say you know the high fat diet is great for aerobic because cardio or running is an

00:35:57.460 aerobic activity and so they promote this um we've had both on the show to talk about this they promote

00:36:03.240 the idea this is this heart rate running right where you you try to keep your heart rate beneath

00:36:08.120 180 minus your age i think is what it is um and when you do that it ends up like you end up running

00:36:14.900 really really slowly but the idea is that that's how you stay in aerobic phase where you're burning

00:36:20.080 fat and not carbohydrates what are what's your take on that approach to training that heart rate

00:36:24.920 monitoring monitor training yeah so this sounds very similar to the maffetone method which that's what

00:36:31.240 it is yeah so you you essentially put on a heart rate monitor and for you know extended period of time

00:36:36.980 maybe it's a month maybe it's three months you whenever you go running you don't exceed that

00:36:41.380 heart rate and i have a couple issues with this approach because uh no major coach advises

00:36:48.700 spending that much time only training the aerobic system there's a lot of other systems you know

00:36:55.060 there's the the anaerobic system there's the elactic system and to be a a good runner to be a

00:37:01.260 well-rounded runner you really need to make sure that you have every element in your training and of

00:37:06.460 course during the many phases of training whether you're in uh recovery mode or uh you're trying to

00:37:12.300 peak for a race you're in the middle of a competition phase of training or you're early in base training

00:37:17.120 you know the focus is on different things but that doesn't mean that you totally eliminate any of the

00:37:23.540 essential aspects of training so you're never going to not do easy runs but at the same time no distance

00:37:30.820 runner should ever get too far away from never running uh really fast so you know almost to at

00:37:37.260 the peak of their top speed now with that said it doesn't need to be a really hard workout you could

00:37:42.580 just do you know four strides after an easy run where you know you get up to 95 or 98 of your maximum

00:37:48.560 speed but you get a full recovery you know they're not even difficult they're just um you know a drill

00:37:55.200 almost and and how you uh practice turnover and and foot speed so you know i i think it's it's

00:38:03.260 interesting in theory but in practice you don't see any elite runners do it and i think that's the

00:38:08.940 ultimate litmus test if elite runners are not doing what these kind of more general theorists are

00:38:15.540 prescribing them to do then it means it doesn't work if it was working then you would have the best

00:38:20.340 runners in the world doing the most um you know forward thinking training that is that is being

00:38:26.660 uh proposed but you don't see that happen you know you see runners who are you know running 80 percent

00:38:32.000 of their mileage at that easy effort but then 20 percent of their mileage is fast it's hard and you

00:38:38.160 kind of need that that balance to uh reach your potential and if you don't then well you're really just

00:38:44.840 not gonna you're not gonna get as fast as you would if you followed a more intelligent training

00:38:49.320 approach all right well jason we covered a lot uh in this conversation um but there's a lot more

00:38:54.380 for people to learn uh where can people learn more about your work and what you do uh the best place

00:38:59.820 is uh strengthrunning.com this is where you know just like the art of manliness we have a blog we

00:39:04.960 have a podcast a lot of different resources for runners i try to really focus on helping runners

00:39:10.480 stay healthy long term because that injury rate like we discussed is just so astronomically high

00:39:16.160 and you know if we can you know get runners to stay healthy and and prevent those injuries then

00:39:22.920 they're going to be able to train like gangbusters and really become uh better runners than they ever

00:39:28.140 thought so strengthrunning.com is probably the best option but i'm on uh instagram and twitter for

00:39:33.860 for those social media folks uh what is my handle jason fits one unfortunately my name was taken so

00:39:40.220 there we go awesome well jason fitzgerald thank you so much for your time it's been a pleasure

00:39:44.540 well thank you so much for having me my guest today was jason fitzgerald he is a usa track and

00:39:49.880 certified coach and the owner of strength running you can find out more information about jason's work

00:39:54.520 at strengthrunning.com also check out the show notes at aom.is strengthrunning where you can find

00:40:00.720 links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic

00:40:02.800 well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice

00:40:18.740 make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com our show is edited

00:40:22.740 by creative audio lab here in tulsa oklahoma if you have any audio editing needs or audio production

00:40:26.600 needs check them out at creativeaudiolab.com as always we appreciate your continuing support

00:40:30.720 reviews on itunes and stitcher helps out a lot until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay

00:40:35.300 manly

The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

#266： The Myths and Truths of Distance Running

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