The Art of Manliness - #278： The Surprising Benefits of Marriage for Men

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. Now for many

00:00:18.660 men, marriage is seen as an institution that at best stifles them or at worst sets them

00:00:22.760 up for divorce and as a result financial and emotional ruin. But research is coming out

00:00:27.660 in recent years that suggests that marriage actually offers a lot of benefits to men from

00:00:31.380 making more money, having a better sex life and enjoying a healthier, longer life. Today

00:00:37.380 on the podcast, I talked to one of those researchers. His name is Brad Wilcox. He's a professor of

00:00:41.160 sociology at the University of Virginia, as well as the director of the National Marriage

00:00:44.900 Project. He spent his career researching the impact of marriage has on people's lives. And

00:00:49.060 today on the show, Brad and I discussed the effect marriage has on men and why officially

00:00:53.540 tying the knot actually makes a significant difference compared to being in a committed

00:00:57.460 non-married relationship. We also discussed what men can do to create a lasting marriage

00:01:01.860 and even the best age to get hitched. We then shift gears to talk about his research on fatherhood,

00:01:06.820 particularly the importance of dads in a child's life and the benefits men get themselves from

00:01:11.140 being a dad. Whether you're already married and a dad or thinking about popping the question,

00:01:15.340 you're going to find a lot of insights and surprising information in this podcast. After

00:01:18.560 the show is over, make sure to check out the show notes at aom.is slash menandmarriage.

00:01:27.460 Brad Wilcox, welcome to the show.

00:01:33.820 It's great to be here, Brad.

00:01:35.040 So you're a professor of sociology at the University of Virginia. You're also the director of the

00:01:39.340 National Marriage Project and a senior fellow at the Institute of Family Studies for Family

00:01:43.340 Studies. And you do a lot of research about marriage, fatherhood, and particularly marriage

00:01:48.780 in men and the benefits that men get from it, as well as the benefits children in the greater

00:01:53.920 society gets from men being married. So I'd love to dig into your research a bit.

00:02:00.200 So there's, I feel like for men in marriage today in America, it's either seen as something

00:02:05.840 at best, you know, will restrain you, hold you back, or at worst, you're just setting yourself

00:02:10.760 up for being fleeced in divorce courts. But you've done a lot of research showing these benefits

00:02:17.040 that come from marriage. What are some of those benefits that men get from being married?

00:02:21.980 So when it comes to the most kind of basic goods in life, what we find is that men who are 1.00

00:02:29.220 stably married earn more money, have more assets, they do better when it comes to their health, 0.94

00:02:37.180 and they even enjoy better quality sex lives. So kind of some basic goods that concern, you know,

00:02:43.540 many ordinary guys, money, health, and sex. We see that men who are stably married are much more

00:02:50.040 likely to be doing well on those outcomes, compared to their peers who are both single

00:02:55.900 and divorced.

00:02:57.720 So what's going on there? So for example, you know, why do men who are married make more money?

00:03:02.660 Because some would say there's a selection bias going on there. People, men who are able to

00:03:06.560 maintain a stable relationship probably have attributes that allow them to, you know, go up

00:03:10.920 the corporate ladder. I mean, is that what's going on? Or is there something else?

00:03:14.060 Well, certainly part of the story here is what we call selection, where the types of men who get and

00:03:18.860 stay married are more likely to have, say, good jobs, perhaps better social skills, and other,

00:03:26.100 you know, traits that make them more attractive as husbands. But it's also the case, too, that when we

00:03:32.040 kind of look at guys over the life course, what we see is that when men get married, they tend to work

00:03:37.500 harder, and they work more hours, and they make more money. Also, when men get divorced, they tend to often

00:03:42.980 cut back on hours and earn less money. So it's the state of marriage itself that looks like it's

00:03:47.220 having an impact on men. There's also been a twin study in Minnesota showing that married twins

00:03:56.900 were doing better financially than their unmarried twin brothers. So that's kind of a pretty compelling

00:04:03.920 evidence. There's something about marriage per se that helps men do better in today's workforce.

00:04:11.300 And, you know, with the set, you said that marriage can actually increase the quality of a man's sex 0.67

00:04:16.720 life. A lot of people, a lot of guys put off marriages like, oh, well, let's have this one

00:04:20.100 partner, it'll get boring. So don't want to do that. So why is it that marriage can improve a man's sex 0.98

00:04:26.340 life? Well, you know, one study found that 54% of men said that they were extremely satisfied with the

00:04:32.680 physical quality of their sex if they were married, compared to 44% of cohabiting guys,

00:04:38.180 and 43% of single guys. That same survey also found that men reported they were more satisfied

00:04:45.240 with the emotional quality of their sexual lives if they were married versus being cohabiting or

00:04:50.500 single. So, you know, I think this sort of runs, you know, counter to a lot of what you might see on

00:04:55.760 MTV or YouTube or movies or shows where kind of there's this image out there that the single guys

00:05:02.060 or the cohabiting guys get the best sex. In reality, guys who have a ring on their finger

00:05:07.380 tend to enjoy the highest quality sex. And I think that's for a couple of reasons. One is that,

00:05:14.160 you know, even for guys, a sense of commitment, a sense of trust and security matters in the average

00:05:20.880 sexual relationship. And marriage tends to deliver more security, more commitment, and more trust

00:05:26.800 than the alternatives for guys. And the second thing that's worth, I think, noting about sex is

00:05:33.800 it looks like, you know, couples who are married are more likely to kind of invest in one another

00:05:38.780 in a whole variety of ways, you know, financially, practically, but also sexually. And so if you're

00:05:43.940 stably married, there's kind of an incentive and an orientation to try to figure out what your, 0.98

00:05:49.780 you know, what your spouse, you know, likes and to do that. So kind of to be more sensitive to

00:05:56.560 to your partner in the bedroom is just one way of understanding this, this finding.

00:06:02.200 Right. I think the report that just came out about men in marriage, I mean, it did state that

00:06:06.560 married and cohabitating men have more sex than single men, which is makes sense if you're single,

00:06:12.020 like you don't have a sexual partner there. But cohabitating men typically have more sex than

00:06:18.480 married men, but they report the quality of sex not to be that great.

00:06:22.760 Well, right. So it's important to know, actually, so cohabiting men have the most sex,

00:06:26.220 followed then by married men and followed finally by single guys. But again, when it comes to

00:06:32.020 reports of the quality, both the emotional quality of the sex and the physical quality of sex,

00:06:37.600 we see that married men tend to do better than both their cohabiting and single peers. So again,

00:06:43.460 I think we might think about sex as, you know, something that's more exotic, you know,

00:06:46.500 whatever else is going to be the most exciting or the best sex. But if you kind of look at,

00:06:52.660 you know, sort of sex in general, again, we're finding is the guys who are doing it in the married

00:06:57.940 context are more likely to report that they're happy with both the emotional and physical

00:07:02.700 quality of that sex.

00:07:04.760 And what about the physical and mental health benefits of marriage for men?

00:07:08.640 Well, we know that men who are married tend to be in better physical health and better emotional

00:07:15.100 health. So for instance, if you look at recent data among guys in their 20s and 30s, and ask them,

00:07:22.860 you know, if they're very happy with life, what we find is the guys who are younger men, again,

00:07:27.980 men between 20 and 38, are about twice as likely to say they're very happy with life if they're married

00:07:34.440 versus single or cohabiting. So it's a pretty strong association there in some recent data

00:07:40.840 from the general social survey. And then when it comes to physical health, we know that guys

00:07:47.160 tend to do better on a whole bunch of outcomes. They tend to be less stressed, their immune systems

00:07:54.320 tend to function better, and they tend to recover from things like cancer more quickly and more commonly

00:08:01.100 if they're married. And it looks like guys live about nine years longer if they're stably married

00:08:08.480 than their single or divorced peers. And so if you're the kind of guy, for instance, who likes to

00:08:14.860 smoke, it looks like sort of the positive health effects of stable marriage are comparable to the

00:08:20.900 negative health effects of smoking a pack a day. So if you are a smoker, it looks like stable marriage

00:08:26.740 can kind of offset the health effects of regularly smoking. But that's just sort of one example of

00:08:32.860 kind of the power of marriage. And, you know, we hear a lot obviously today about sort of smoking

00:08:37.000 and health. I think what's striking is how little we hear about sort of the power of marriage

00:08:42.140 to help men enjoy both psychologically and physically healthier lives.

00:08:49.580 There's a lot of statistics coming out showing that younger people, millennials, they're not

00:08:54.760 necessarily remaining single. They're dealing with a lot of cohabitating. They're not getting

00:08:59.420 married. So, I mean, what is it about marriage compared to cohabitation that gives you these

00:09:05.660 benefits? I mean, a lot of people would argue that, well, when you're married, like things don't

00:09:09.720 really change from just living with your partner. Like all you now have now is a piece of paper from

00:09:14.780 the state that says you're officially a couple. So, I mean, what is it about marriage that provides

00:09:20.200 these benefits that you probably can't get cohabitating?

00:09:22.640 Well, you know, marriage is really profoundly different than cohabitation. A lot of people

00:09:26.200 think about marriage as being just a piece of paper. But, you know, I think one way to think

00:09:31.740 about the difference between the two relationships is think about kind of the terms of entry.

00:09:37.920 And, you know, what's interesting when you ask people sort of when they begin to cohabit,

00:09:40.940 if you ask that question to both partners, oftentimes you'll get a different answer. Because

00:09:45.820 one partner might count sort of that moment when they started spending three nights a week together,

00:09:50.760 and the other partner might count that moment when, you know, one of the partners moved all of

00:09:58.060 their possessions, you know, into their apartment. But the point is there isn't kind of one particular

00:10:03.680 moment that marks that entry into cohabitation, you know, for many couples. By contrast, kind of

00:10:10.040 everyone knows their wedding date. And it's usually, you know, a situation where you are getting

00:10:15.940 married in front of friends and family members, you know, often in some kind of religious institution.

00:10:21.660 And, you know, you've got music, you have vows, you have people who are looking at you entering

00:10:27.360 into this new relationship. So it's just a very different way of sort of starting a relationship.

00:10:31.880 relationship. And one is much more sort of public and social than the other. And so that kind of

00:10:39.820 different entry is just one example of the way in which marriage, I think, conveys a lot more

00:10:45.900 seriousness, a lot more commitment. And those things then engender more trust, more emotional security,

00:10:54.600 and much more stability. We see today in America, and really, really around the world, that married

00:11:01.780 couples tend to enjoy much more stability than their cohabiting peers. So again, some people are

00:11:07.680 under this misimpression that the only difference between the two things is this piece of paper.

00:11:15.220 But because marriage is a much more committed institution, both individuals, couples, and their

00:11:22.980 larger community of friends and family tend to view a married relationship much differently than a

00:11:28.780 cohabiting one. And it affects how they view their own relationship, and how other people trust them.

00:11:34.040 So for instance, folks who are married are much more likely to get financial support and assistance

00:11:40.560 from their parents or their in-laws, so to speak, than couples who are cohabiting, because the parents

00:11:47.760 have more confidence that that support will be kind of going to the couple and nowadays any kids that

00:11:54.120 they might have on a kind of more permanent, you know, basis. Another example, a practical example,

00:12:00.420 is that guys who are married tend to save hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars on car insurance

00:12:07.900 compared to their peers who are cohabiting or single. And again, this is because, you know,

00:12:13.500 companies have done the numbers and find there's something about marriage that tends to make guys

00:12:18.920 drive more safely. And that's just one other indication of the way in which marriage is really

00:12:24.860 a distinctive institution, even today for today's men. Yeah, I thought that was interesting, your point

00:12:29.560 about how cohabitation, the date of entry into the relationship is different for everybody. It's fluid.

00:12:37.160 We had Dr. Meg Jay on the podcast several years ago. She wrote the book, The Defining Decade.

00:12:42.140 She talks about cohabitation as you're sort of sliding into a relationship, right? Like you're

00:12:48.480 not really making a firm commitment. You're just kind of just going with the flow and it just sort

00:12:51.460 of happens. And something about that doesn't provide the stability of making a firm commitment.

00:12:56.260 Yeah. So cohabitation today gives young adults a lot of freedom and flexibility, and that's

00:13:00.100 obviously appealing and attractive in some ways. But the flip side to that is it doesn't have the same

00:13:05.100 degree of commitment and the same degree of security. And, you know, kind of at our deepest levels,

00:13:09.980 you know, and in our most vulnerable moments, we really want someone who is there for us,

00:13:14.360 you know, where there isn't kind of that freedom to leave if, you know, if you're not that happy in

00:13:19.800 the relationship, you know, at one moment in time. And then, of course, the other thing that's

00:13:24.460 important to put on the table here as well is that today a lot of younger adults are cohabiting and

00:13:29.160 having kids in those cohabiting relationships. And that is, I think, the most worrisome thing I would

00:13:34.660 say about cohabitation because those relationships are much less stable than our married relationships.

00:13:41.680 So people who are having their kids in a married relationship are much more likely to go the

00:13:49.560 distance with their kids compared to couples who are having a baby in a cohabiting relationship.

00:13:54.780 So again, marriage gives not just adults, but especially kids a stability premium that's

00:14:05.180 really valuable to the next generation. Well, yeah, you did a report a while back ago about

00:14:10.000 the rise of unmarried couples who are having children. I mean, besides the stability, what are

00:14:14.740 the other detriments or the lack of stability? What are some of the other detriments that cohabitation

00:14:19.180 possess or poses to children? Well, kids in cohabiting relationships are,

00:14:24.300 one, more likely to experience instability. Two, they're more likely to see their parents

00:14:30.160 be physically violent with one another. I think partly because their parents are less likely to

00:14:35.900 have that commitment and trust, you know, guiding their relationship. And kids in cohabiting households

00:14:43.020 are, you know, more likely to sort of sense that that, you know, that sort of that trust and commitment

00:14:49.280 isn't as strong or as publicly kind of noted for their parents, you know, as it might be for,

00:14:55.840 you know, say friends down, down the block, so to speak. So there are just a variety of ways in which

00:15:01.640 because it entails less commitment and less trust and also actually less sexual fidelity,

00:15:07.820 you know, it's not as ideal for child rearing as marriages. Now, it's also important in all of this

00:15:15.960 that it's not just sort of a marriage license that matters. It's also kind of a marriage mentality,

00:15:24.780 I think, that matters. And so what I would say is it's, you know, couples who really think of

00:15:29.140 themselves as married, who think of themselves in terms of we, not me, or of we, not I, who think

00:15:38.360 about their marriage in terms of this is a kind of permanent commitment, not a kind of, you know,

00:15:43.340 commitment that's for as long as I shall love. It's those couples who are more kind of committed

00:15:49.800 to marriage, um, and to a lifelong, um, love, um, also tend to not surprisingly enjoy more stable

00:15:58.260 relationships. Uh, they tend to be happier in their relationships and they tend to invest more

00:16:03.880 in one another, uh, practically, you know, financially, uh, emotionally in ways that, um,

00:16:10.480 redound to long-term typically to both their own benefit, to the benefit of their spouse and, um,

00:16:17.120 to the benefit of their kids as well. So again, when we're talking about marriage, it's not just

00:16:21.840 the law, it's not just the license. It's also kind of whether or not a couple kind of really embraces

00:16:27.980 what I would call a marriage mentality shapes, you know, their odds of enjoying the, uh, the highest

00:16:34.240 quality, um, relationship. So what's the state of marriage in America today? Is it still a goal

00:16:40.440 for a lot of people or they, is it sort of becoming, you know, push to the wayside? Well, I think marriage

00:16:46.400 is in a kind of a weird spot because on the one hand, I think that, uh, marriage remains the gold

00:16:52.560 standard. Um, it remains kind of the ideal. Um, but you know, in the pop culture with shows like

00:16:58.820 bachelor and bachelorette with, you know, music and movies, I think we often have an overly idealized

00:17:05.400 vision of marriage as kind of like the soulmate relationship or this romantic relationship where

00:17:11.360 you can signal to your partner and to your friends and to yourself that you've kind of made it,

00:17:16.880 you know, emotionally, relationship wise, even financially, oftentimes today. Um, the problem

00:17:23.300 with that view is it doesn't kind of appreciate, I think kind of the practical character of marriage

00:17:27.460 and, um, and the demands that marriage puts upon us. I mean, marriage, of course, is not, uh, for most

00:17:33.080 of us is not an easy relationship. It's really oftentimes a pretty hard one to be in a relationship

00:17:39.140 with someone, you know, day in and day out, um, with all of their faults and failings and with all

00:17:43.960 of your own faults and failings. Um, so I think what's missing oftentimes today is an appreciation

00:17:49.500 of the way in which, you know, marriage is a difficult undertaking, but nevertheless, one that's,

00:17:54.860 um, you know, really important and valuable, um, you know, both for us adults, uh, for our children,

00:18:00.320 um, and, uh, for our communities and even the country. Because, um, when marriage is strong,

00:18:07.620 we see that kids are more likely to flourish, uh, communities are more likely to, um, be healthy

00:18:14.280 and thriving. And even our own research suggests, you know, that, um, states with stronger marriage

00:18:19.520 cultures tend to do better, for instance, you know, economically, uh, than states that don't have that

00:18:24.240 strong marriage culture. So, uh, in terms of talking about kind of the character of marriage, I would

00:18:30.540 say on the plus side, marriage still is an important part of, um, American ideals. Um, and it's also

00:18:37.480 the case on the plus side that we've actually seen divorce come down since the height of the

00:18:42.460 Doris revolution in the 1970s, 1980s. Um, and particularly among college educated Americans, 0.61

00:18:49.160 um, stable marriage really is sort of the defining feature of family life. Um, the problem though,

00:18:55.380 when it comes to marriage is that we do see a growing marriage divide in the United States where

00:18:59.520 working class and poor Americans today are less likely to get and stay married. Um, I think partly 1.00

00:19:04.380 because they have kind of the soulmate view of marriage, like everything has to be kind of perfect

00:19:07.700 for them to either get married or stay married. Um, and probably because they have a few economic

00:19:11.660 resources to, uh, to navigate married life. And then we're also seeing too, that I think a lot of

00:19:17.160 younger adults are needlessly postponing marriage. Um, and because they have kind of this idealized,

00:19:24.280 you know, soulmate, uh, model of marriage, um, that makes them expect perhaps too much of both

00:19:30.600 themselves and potential partners, you know, before they go into marriage. So, you know, those are

00:19:35.880 some of the things that indicate kind of the way in which marriage is not as strong or as powerful as

00:19:41.000 it used to be. Um, and my biggest concern, I guess, in terms of looking at, you know, more negative

00:19:46.820 trends related to marriage family life is that, um, you know, a large share of younger folks

00:19:52.500 particularly are, are having kids outside of marriage. Um, and about 40% of babies now born

00:19:59.480 outside of marriage. And, you know, that's associated with a lot of instability for those kids and,

00:20:05.120 you know, a number of negative outcomes for those children. So there, there's a lot to unpack there.

00:20:09.720 Um, first, so this, the, the divorce rate being high amongst, um, just working class high school

00:20:16.640 educated Americans, I mean, is there anything that can be done? Are there any research backed,

00:20:21.460 uh, moves that can be done to help that improve that?

00:20:25.260 I think there are really, uh, two big things that could be done. Uh, one is on the economic front

00:20:32.440 to do more, both in, in the marketplace and in our, our public policies to strengthen

00:20:38.940 job opportunities for men who don't have college degrees. Uh, so for instance, we can do, I think, 0.99

00:20:44.600 a much better job in terms of vocational training and apprenticeships, um, on the public policy side

00:20:51.020 of the, of the ledger. Um, and that would help make working class men, less educated men, you know, 0.99

00:20:57.300 more economically attractive, I think, as husbands, both in, in their partner's eyes and also in their

00:21:02.900 own eyes, which is important. Um, on the cultural side of, of things, I think it's important

00:21:08.640 to stress that we need to do more in terms of public messaging like we have with, um, you know,

00:21:16.920 with smoking for instance, um, and in the popular culture, you know, in our, our movies, our TV shows,

00:21:22.700 our songs, now our vines to sort of basically show the power of marriage, uh, for younger adults,

00:21:31.120 you know, the way in which, you know, marriage, even though it's, you know, it's demanding and

00:21:34.820 difficult, um, does, you know, um, provide us with so many, um, important social goods and personal

00:21:43.660 goods. Um, and then also just to stress, luckily if you're, if you're expecting a child, if you're

00:21:48.560 looking to have a child, really the best thing you can do for that child is, is to, um, you know,

00:21:54.200 is to be married before your child comes, you know, comes along and then to do everything you can to,

00:21:59.060 to remain married, you know, once you have, you know, kids, um, to get those messages,

00:22:04.240 I think to the broader culture, um, and in ways that are sort of accessible and engaging

00:22:09.560 would be really helpful in strengthening, uh, marriage and the stability of family life and

00:22:14.560 working class and poor communities. Are there any, uh, pop culture examples where you feel like

00:22:18.740 they're doing a good job with that? Yeah, that's, that's a good question. I mean, I think,

00:22:22.200 uh, this is us is one example of a recent show that does a good job of that. And, um, I think

00:22:29.820 that there are others out there, but I just, um, you know, I don't have a bunch of those right at

00:22:37.320 the sort of tip of my fingers here. So you also mentioned that young people are putting off marriage

00:22:43.700 longer and longer. I think it's the highest since, you know, I think like the 1930s, right? The age of

00:22:49.420 marriage, um, it was really low in the post-war era. Kids, you know, people were getting married

00:22:54.980 in their early twenties. Um, and a lot of people feel like they need to put off marriage until they

00:22:59.300 have like a job, they finish college, et cetera. Is that necessarily the case? Do you have to be

00:23:04.420 financially stable in order to start a marriage or is it okay to start a marriage when you're

00:23:09.620 poor, broke college students? I think, um, certainly, I mean, I know plenty of folks who have

00:23:14.680 gotten married, um, in graduate school and they were relatively broke, um, and, you know,

00:23:20.880 have done, done well. Um, but I think, I guess what I would say is that generally speaking, um,

00:23:28.040 it's valuable to have, I think at least, um, you know, um, some experience in, in the,

00:23:35.060 in the workforce before getting married. So I would, I would definitely say having, you know,

00:23:39.600 had at least, you know, a year, um, of, of stable work is a good thing to have under your belt before

00:23:45.960 you go ahead and get married. Um, and we do know that from both the perspective of, you know,

00:23:50.760 of the man and of the woman that, you know, particularly his stable employment is a major

00:23:55.520 predictor of, um, her willingness to go ahead and get married. Um, and then also kind of the

00:24:01.720 stability of their marriage after that wedding day. So, um, I think it's important to do all you can

00:24:06.960 kind of find some kind of work, um, doesn't have to be, um, you know, a job that's bringing in,

00:24:13.040 you know, six figures. Um, but I think having had some experience in labor force, um, can be helpful

00:24:19.520 for kind of grounding people before they go ahead and get married. Is there an age where, you know,

00:24:23.780 where it's too late? Like, you know, when you, the longer you put off marriage, does it get harder

00:24:27.120 to actually settle down and find a partner? Well, I think it certainly is somewhat harder for folks

00:24:32.360 after they turn 30, you know, to get married and particularly as they approach their forties and beyond.

00:24:36.960 to, to marry. Um, and it's interesting when you look at sort of the link between agent marriage

00:24:44.760 and, um, divorce and the agent marriage and marital quality, you see somewhat different patterns in

00:24:52.680 terms of kind of what's the ideal age to get married. So when it comes to divorce, it looks

00:24:57.560 like kind of the ideal age to get married is in your late twenties or early thirties. Um, that's when

00:25:01.960 you see kind of the lowest divorce rates for the average American. When it comes to marital

00:25:06.480 quality, we've actually have a different story in there. It kind of looks like getting married

00:25:09.360 in your mid twenties is kind of ideal. Um, so couples who get married in their mid twenties

00:25:14.480 report the highest levels of marital quality. Um, and I think the, the, you know, the, the conclusion

00:25:22.340 that I would draw from that is that, you know, um, getting married a little bit older might

00:25:28.880 be associated with kind of a maturity orientation, um, that is itself, you know, linked to somewhat

00:25:35.760 lower divorce risk. Um, but getting married in your mid twenties sort of allows you as a couple

00:25:40.420 to establish a common life together. Um, and you know, sort of that tradition of, of vacations

00:25:47.720 or holidays or, um, you know, even kind of having kids and sort of establishing, um, you know,

00:25:55.940 kind of an agreed upon approach to, you know, to work in professional life can be, um, you

00:26:02.740 know, can be good. Right. I mean, in your research, have you come across anything about attributes

00:26:07.960 or qualities or, uh, that, you know, people should have before they go into a marriage? Cause I mean,

00:26:14.060 I get a lot of letters from guys asking me like, you know, I'm in my mid twenties. I'm thinking

00:26:17.520 about getting married, but like all my friends say I'm too young. How do I know if I'm ready

00:26:21.740 for marriage? So you mentioned, you know, have a little bit of working experience comes in handy,

00:26:25.380 but anything else that lets you know, yeah, you're, you might be ready for this commitment.

00:26:28.720 I think the guys who are, who really do feel, um, you know, uh, committed, deeply committed to,

00:26:36.020 to this person who are kind of, um, want to, you know, go all out for her is that's, you know,

00:26:43.540 pretty important as an ingredient to, uh, to marital success. Um, I think guys who are kind

00:26:50.060 of willing to cut back on other friendships to some extent, you know, and, and focus on,

00:26:54.560 um, this relationship in particular are also kind of signaling that they're ready for marriage.

00:27:00.260 Um, I think that, um, guys who have, you know, made an effort to, um, get to know, um, their future

00:27:09.820 spouse's, you know, parents and sort of signal their interest to them is also, that's a good

00:27:15.180 sign. Uh, we also see too, the couples who enjoy shared religious attendance are more likely to,

00:27:22.180 um, be doing well, both in terms of the quality of their marriages and in terms of the stability

00:27:27.540 of their marriages. So if you're, you know, if you're 22 or 23 and you're attending a church or a

00:27:33.340 synagogue or a mosque together, um, and you share that common religious orientation commitment,

00:27:39.800 um, that's going to tend to ground your marriage in ways that will, you know, put you in, um,

00:27:45.720 good shape for, uh, for a common future together.

00:27:49.480 So we've talked about like getting married, but like, what do you do once you're married?

00:27:52.820 Because like, you don't want to get divorced because I think there's statistics out there,

00:27:56.080 research is that divorce for men can just be devastating. I mean, it can devastate your finances,

00:28:00.000 obviously for obvious reasons, uh, but it can also devastate your mental and physical health

00:28:04.760 also. Um, so how do you avoid that? How can, what can men do to foster a happy marriage?

00:28:10.980 Well, you know, I think one thing of course, is when it comes to marriage that men need to be 1.00

00:28:15.320 sort of, you know, as, as do women need to be careful. You know, I think we often make marriage 1.00

00:28:20.160 decisions based upon how attractive someone is. And I'm not just saying physically, but you know,

00:28:24.960 that's what you part of, but sort of physical characteristics, you know, are they funny?

00:28:28.520 Are they engaging? You know, are they sort of good in a social setting? You know, so it's easy

00:28:35.400 to kind of put on a good, good front, you know, and, um, you know, in public and are out on dates

00:28:42.820 and things like that. But, you know, I think we have to be sort of discerning about whether or not

00:28:46.940 this person has the character. Um, do they have virtues like, you know, fidelity, their virtues like

00:28:52.420 charity, they have virtues like thrift, um, today, especially, um, because those virtues are going

00:28:59.000 to be much more predictive of a stable, happy marriage, um, than, um, looks or, you know, humor

00:29:07.220 or whatnot. So I think, you know, one needs to be thinking about, do we have the kind of, uh, virtues

00:29:13.740 and the kind of common interests, you know, um, whether it's sports or politics or hiking or,

00:29:20.880 you know, religion, whatever, that will help ground a marital friendship. And so couples that

00:29:26.460 have those virtues and that have those common interests who can see themselves as friends

00:29:31.040 when they're 75 old and ugly, um, will tend to do pretty well. Um, by contrast couples who I think 1.00

00:29:37.440 are just drawn together, um, by that sort of sexual romantic attraction, more like going to run into

00:29:45.240 trouble. Um, but then once you are married, I would say that generosity, um, is certainly an

00:29:53.300 important predictor of marital success. Um, shared faith can be an important predictor of marital

00:29:59.060 success. Um, also particularly the husband having a stable job, all these things tend to

00:30:07.120 reduce, uh, the risk of divorce, uh, for couples after the wedding day. All right. So love with

00:30:13.940 your heart and your head is what you're saying. Yeah. I would also actually, I would also add to

00:30:18.120 that your friends matter a great deal. Um, and I can remember reading that when Mark Sanford got

00:30:23.220 into marital trouble, um, down in South America, he was with a bunch of his male buddies and at this

00:30:29.040 ranch, um, in South America. And that's when he met, um, you know, the woman who helped break up his

00:30:36.320 marriage, um, with whom he, you know, um, had that affair. Um, but I was just thinking those guys

00:30:43.280 clearly were not invested, you know, in his marriage. Um, by contrast, you know, we all know,

00:30:49.100 uh, friends who, who take our marriage, who take our family life pretty seriously. And so, you know,

00:30:55.720 I think it's, it's also important to think about the kinds of people you're hanging out with. Are they

00:30:59.720 there for you and for your wife and your marriage, or are they likely to say things and do things that are

00:31:05.020 going to put your marriage, um, at risk? Um, and so again, we know that sort of your social networks,

00:31:09.580 um, they matter for a lot of things. One of the things that they matter for is your divorce risk.

00:31:14.480 And if you have a friendship network, that's, um, you know, it takes marriage seriously,

00:31:19.000 that's going to have a big impact on your own marriage. Great. So let's shift to fatherhood now.

00:31:22.740 Um, I think all of us have read or heard somewhere that, you know, fathers are important in a child's

00:31:28.040 development, but what, what specifically does a father bring to a child that a mother can't bring?

00:31:35.020 Well, you know, I was raised by a single mother and I think that, you know, moms can do many of the

00:31:40.160 things that dads can do, um, particularly in some kind of difficult situation as my mom was,

00:31:46.400 you know, was sort of put in when, um, my father died when I was three. Um, so, you know, moms can be

00:31:54.700 firm, they can be decent disciplinarians, um, they can certainly play with their kids and all those

00:31:59.660 things. But having said that, I think it's important for us to sort of understand that in the average

00:32:04.320 family, you know, with the average father and the average mother, dads tend to excel in at least four

00:32:09.920 different areas. Um, they tend to still today excel when it comes to breadwinning. And of course

00:32:14.320 that matters for, you know, educating your kids, you know, paying for kids extracurriculars and all

00:32:21.160 the kinds of financial things that go into raising children today. So, you know, the fact that he brings

00:32:25.900 typically more money to the table is still an important factor for the average American father.

00:32:30.680 Uh, secondly, though, dads, um, also tend to have kind of a leg up and just kind of, again,

00:32:35.460 more of an old school point, but tend to have a leg up when it comes to discipline. Um, the size,

00:32:41.720 physical size of men, the tone of their voice and other kinds of features of men make them more

00:32:48.040 likely to be the more authoritative disciplinarian in the average family. Um, they're also more likely

00:32:52.900 to be sort of sticklers for rules than, uh, than our moms. And my point is not to say that men are

00:32:58.040 better disciplinarians than women, but they just, they provide a different kind of discipline, um, 1.00

00:33:02.120 to their kids typically than do moms. And it's actually good for kids to experience kind of

00:33:06.840 maternal discipline, which is a little bit more flexible oftentimes, a little bit less attentive

00:33:10.460 to the rules, more attentive to the situation, but also to experience dad's discipline, which tends

00:33:15.940 to be a little bit less flexible and more rule-based, you know, um, and whatnot. So kids get,

00:33:21.660 you know, I think a valuable experience by having both those, uh, styles of discipline.

00:33:28.040 Um, but thirdly kind of moving beyond those sort of traditional points about men as breadwinners

00:33:31.400 and men as disciplinarians in the home. We also are seeing today that, um, when it comes to play,

00:33:38.120 um, the power of play in kids' lives, um, that dads tend to be more likely to challenge their kids

00:33:45.080 to, um, sort of rough and engaging physical play. You know, so if you go to a local playground,

00:33:50.520 for instance, a local park, you're more likely to see, you know, the data of that toddler taking that

00:33:55.720 toddler and throwing him up, you know, into the air, catching him to the toddler's squeals and

00:34:01.160 laughter. And then, you know, and then doing that over again, mom's much more likely to sort of 1.00

00:34:04.600 attain to the toddler's physical wellbeing and security. So that kind of approach to play,

00:34:10.040 you know, is, is, is great for kids. In fact, we, we know that kids who rough house with their dads,

00:34:16.280 um, tend to be, um, more socially popular in elementary school than kids who don't do a lot of

00:34:24.280 rough housing with their dads. So kind of learning how to handle their, their bodies, um, you know,

00:34:29.960 and not bite, kick, you know, punch, et cetera, in that rough housing context, I think seems to,

00:34:37.240 you know, have some impact on, on kids' interactions on the playground and other places.

00:34:42.280 Um, and then fourth, we know that, you know, the dads do tend to kind of push, uh, their sons and

00:34:49.720 their daughters to embrace, uh, life's challenges and life's opportunities to kind of push them out

00:34:55.640 of the nest, if you will. Um, and so both again, young men and young women who have come from, um,

00:35:03.480 well-fathered homes, um, are more likely to flourish in school and they're more likely to flourish in the

00:35:10.440 labor force. Um, so there's even, I think a kind of a, almost a feminist case to make for, uh, for 1.00

00:35:16.440 having, um, you know, a good dad in the picture because he tends to, you know, help his sons and

00:35:23.720 his daughters, uh, prepare for, um, the world outside the home. So yeah, dads can provide a lot

00:35:29.720 of benefits to children, but, uh, do men get any benefits, emotional, psychological, or otherwise from

00:35:35.160 being dads? Well, I think, you know, for many men, fatherhood is enormously, uh, enormously generative.

00:35:41.320 Um, and there's certainly ways in which I think when you are a father, um, you know, you can be

00:35:46.920 stressed out. Um, you can, you know, be, um, temporarily unhappy by, you know, whatever challenge

00:35:54.440 you're facing in terms of a child, you know, up at night or a teenage, um, you know, daughter or son

00:36:00.840 who's giving you a lot of difficulty at home. Um, but kind of from a longer term perspective,

00:36:06.600 uh, we see that, uh, dads more likely report that their lives are meaningful, um, compared to men who

00:36:12.600 don't have, um, who don't have kids. Um, and so I think that's that kind of, you know, that sense of

00:36:19.000 meaning and purpose that one derives from fatherhood that, you know, is enormously important to, uh, you

00:36:24.960 know, to many of us. Yeah. So you make a distinction between meaningfulness and happiness. Cause I've seen

00:36:29.680 that study that shows that, um, couples who have children, like their happiness level, like goes

00:36:35.760 through this trough when they have kids and when their kids leave their home, it goes back up. So

00:36:40.240 so you're, I guess that's tracking like emotional happiness, like how well you feel on a day-to-day

00:36:46.760 basis, not meaningfulness. Yeah. I mean, I think it also, it's important to note, you know, that there

00:36:50.820 is a lot of what we call kind of heterogeneity or a lot of variation and sort of the impact that kids

00:36:56.180 have on couples, um, and on individual, uh, mothers and fathers. But, you know, you have for many

00:37:01.620 people, you know, having a kid can be obviously stressful and difficult. Um, and it's particularly

00:37:08.060 that first child that seems to be, um, you know, something that kind of reorients your whole life,

00:37:13.740 um, and makes you kind of, um, transition, um, into a new mode. What's interesting, I think,

00:37:21.280 and surprising though, is that, um, work that I've done with some colleagues suggests that

00:37:25.520 fathers of married fathers of, of larger families, four or more kids, um, seem to be more happily

00:37:30.980 married than married dads with fewer kids. And I, and frankly, this, that could be entirely

00:37:36.180 a selection effect by which I mean, the kinds of men who are, you know, stably married and

00:37:42.260 have lots of kids may just be, you know, more likely to enjoy a family life, you know, more likely

00:37:48.940 to, um, you know, um, to be intentional about, um, investing on the home front. Um, but it does

00:37:58.660 suggest to us that, you know, it's not necessarily sort of, um, the number of kids always, but maybe

00:38:06.700 the approach one takes to family life that can be important here. Are women with large families 0.75

00:38:12.540 just as happy as men? Cause I mean, I imagine they're, they're the ones at home with watching

00:38:16.600 the kids probably. So in a report that the national marriage project did called when baby makes three,

00:38:21.800 uh, we found that when it came to, um, sort of happiness, um, in marriage that married couples

00:38:30.160 with, uh, with no kids and with four or more kids were happier. And this is true for both husbands and

00:38:37.040 wives. So again, you know, it's not clear here if having a large family makes you happier, um, or I think

00:38:45.020 it's actually probably more likely if the kinds of couples who remain stably married and have lots

00:38:51.020 of kids, um, they're probably just more intentional about, you know, family vacations, family traditions,

00:38:59.280 you know, um, really investing in their, you know, in their common life together as a family doing,

00:39:05.820 you know, fun things, crazy things, et cetera, are probably the kinds of people who just are,

00:39:09.540 you know, end up having, um, more children and reporting happier marriages, um, as a consequence.

00:39:15.840 Is there any research out there about, you know, when a couple knows when they're ready to have

00:39:21.240 children, like are there attributes that a couple should have before they're like, okay, we're going

00:39:25.760 to bring a kid into this relationship? You know, I haven't seen anything really good on that score.

00:39:29.180 I mean, I think that, um, you know, from probably from my perspective, you know, once you've

00:39:35.400 made that commitment to, uh, to marry, um, and gotten married, you know, and you have,

00:39:41.560 you know, both sets of in-laws in a sense in your corner, um, you know, you're ready to go ahead and

00:39:46.760 have that child. Um, but I honestly haven't seen anything that kind of really looks carefully at

00:39:52.140 the timing of childbirth and it's, you know, impact on the quality or stability of, uh, married life

00:40:00.240 for, you know, for couples.

00:40:01.340 I'm just curious, is there any piece of research that you came across or have, you know, done that

00:40:07.660 the results surprised you in terms of men in marriage and men in fatherhood where you weren't

00:40:13.420 expecting this result, but like you got it and you're like, wow, this is, this is crazy.

00:40:17.440 The thing that's kind of most surprised me is that we haven't, this is, we've done some work

00:40:22.500 internationally, um, a number of colleagues and I have, and I kind of assumed that across the world,

00:40:29.620 um, kids would be more likely to be flourishing in school if they were part of a stably married 0.99

00:40:35.020 family. And, uh, what we found is in parts of, uh, the developing world in parts of Latin America

00:40:41.180 and Southern Africa and in Southern Asia, uh, that wasn't always the case. Um, sometimes kids would do

00:40:49.680 as well or better if they were being raised by, you know, a single, a single mother.

00:40:54.100 And as I explored that issue, uh, with some colleagues, what it looks like it might be

00:40:59.820 is that, you know, in some places there's not a great expectation for the father to be really

00:41:04.920 involved with his kids, um, education or to devote his, um, you know, his money to, um, you know,

00:41:15.040 to the kids, uh, education. So in those contexts, perhaps, you know, having a father in the household

00:41:20.980 isn't always going to be helpful on the educational front. So that was kind of, was eye-opening for me

00:41:25.740 just basically signaled that when we're thinking about something like marriage and family structure,

00:41:30.600 we also have to attend to the culture, you know, and to the family process. Um, and so a culture

00:41:37.740 that basically encourages men to be, um, considerate, responsible, self-sacrificing husbands and fathers,

00:41:46.540 um, is going to be one where I think generally speaking, you know, women and children are more 0.98

00:41:52.920 likely to flourish. Um, but if a culture encourages men to be more macho or, you know, um, you know,

00:42:02.420 not to really attend, you know, in, in deep ways to, um, you know, to their wife or to their children,

00:42:10.620 you know, we can't expect that the presence of a father will always, you know, or will typically

00:42:15.780 always be linked to better outcomes for, for, you know, for women or children.

00:42:20.960 So what's the state of American fatherhood today? I mean, has it, has it changed like what,

00:42:25.500 what we expect from dads? Has it changed from say 1950s? Like what's the cultural expectation,

00:42:31.060 I guess, of dads?

00:42:32.100 Yeah. So in terms of American fatherhood today, I would say it's the best of times and it's the

00:42:35.360 worst of times. And a lot of, you know, whether it's the best of times, you know, for, for kids,

00:42:39.680 it's the worst of times for kids depends upon your zip code. Um, and so if you're in a zip code,

00:42:45.120 that's more affluent and more educated or more religious, you know, you're, you're in a place

00:42:50.540 where typically fathers are, um, you know, spending more time with their kids than ever. Um, and,

00:42:57.860 you know, in some ways are more, you know, more affectionate and more attentive to their children

00:43:03.580 than ever. And in many respects, that's a, that's obviously a good thing. Um, but if you're in other

00:43:08.220 zip codes, um, it's true for, you know, African-American kids, white kids, Hispanic kids,

00:43:14.080 um, you know, you're going to find a world where, um, you know, dads are not stably connected to

00:43:20.500 their children. They don't necessarily live with their kids. Um, they often might not see their

00:43:25.500 kids on a weekly basis. And, you know, in those working class and poor zip codes, um, in some ways,

00:43:31.980 it's the worst of times, you know, for American fatherhood, because kids are not able to have

00:43:36.260 strong and stable and abiding connections to their fathers. They don't wake up in the morning with dad,

00:43:42.580 you know, um, next to them or dad in the next room. And, um, and those kids, you know, um, are more

00:43:49.940 likely to flounder in school and more likely to end up, you know, incarcerated, more likely to have

00:43:54.860 difficulty in the labor force, um, because they, you know, they didn't have the opportunity or the

00:44:00.320 privilege of having a, um, you know, a good relationship, a stable relationship with, uh,

00:44:05.540 with their dad. So, um, you know, it really is a kind of, uh, um, the picture for American

00:44:11.920 fatherhood really is, um, pretty, uh, schizophrenic, if you will. And, you know, part of what you're

00:44:17.920 doing with your work with the Institute of Family Studies and the Marriage Project is to help,

00:44:21.840 you know, provide policy suggestions to promote marriage. Um, we talked about that, but like anything

00:44:27.880 that you, your all's Institute has, um, suggested is for policy changes to encourage fatherhood or

00:44:35.220 that sort of, uh, ideal of father that we're, that you're striving for? Well, I think in terms of

00:44:39.680 public policy, um, you know, measures, it's important to note that at the end of the day,

00:44:44.620 what happens probably in Los Angeles is more important than what happens in Washington, D.C.,

00:44:50.180 you know, to recognize that the culture, pop culture has a bigger role in affecting, you know,

00:44:56.440 how, um, Americans sort of approach family life than does what happens, you know, um, up on Capitol

00:45:03.620 Hill in Washington, D.C. or in the White House. Um, but having said that, it's important to recognize

00:45:08.200 that we could do, I think, a better job on the policy front. And, um, I think in particular,

00:45:14.340 um, you know, there are two things that we could do, um, better. One is, I think, as I mentioned

00:45:19.260 before, just to do a better job of, of educating, um, young women and young men who are not in that

00:45:24.700 college track, um, in terms of better vocational education, better apprenticeship training, um,

00:45:30.820 you know, better efforts to connect them to, um, jobs out there that pay a decent wage, whether it's,

00:45:36.340 you know, being a plumber, being an electrician, um, doing advanced IT work or advanced manufacturing,

00:45:42.020 or some other kind of job that, that pays a decent, you know, a good wage, um, and makes,

00:45:49.000 you know, our young adults more likely to, um, to be, uh, good prospects for marriage.

00:45:57.240 Uh, a second point, though, I think is to sort of think very seriously and deeply about the way in

00:46:01.860 which, um, our welfare system, and using welfare in the, in the broadest possible, um, sense of that

00:46:08.280 word, you know, may unintentionally, um, discourage or penalize marriage. Um, and so, because we do have,

00:46:15.000 um, income, you know, thresholds, if you will, um, where if your income goes above a certain

00:46:23.000 threshold, you tend to lose access to a, um, you know, to some kinds of assistance, or it tends to

00:46:29.840 taper. Um, what that means is that in practice, policies like, uh, Medicaid or, uh, food stamps,

00:46:38.400 um, or in fewer cases, cash welfare can end up, um, you know, subtly, I think, um, discouraging or

00:46:46.440 not so subtly discouraging marriage, you know, talking to people who working class couples who,

00:46:52.120 who say, you know, we were sort of thinking about marriage, but we, you know, we're sort of concerned

00:46:56.980 too, that we're going to lose access to Medicaid, you know, if, um, if we go and get married and,

00:47:03.400 you know, that can be a big, obviously concern when you're having a child, um, or when you already have,

00:47:08.160 um, one or two kids. So from a public policy vantage point, I think we should do more to try

00:47:13.740 to minimize or eliminate the marriage penalty facing, um, working class and poor families,

00:47:19.700 you know, as one way to make, um, our public policies more marriage friendly.

00:47:24.740 Well, Brad, this has been a great conversation. We scratched the surface. Where can people learn

00:47:28.660 more about your work?

00:47:29.720 I think the best place to go to really understand the work of Institute for Family Studies

00:47:33.680 is, uh, family-studies.org, um, on, um, you know, on the internet. I'm also on Twitter at

00:47:41.080 WilcoxNMP. Um, and those are two good places to sort of learn more about the research, um, that

00:47:46.940 we're doing on marriage, uh, cohabitation and fatherhood, both in America and around the globe.

00:47:52.260 Fantastic. Brad Wilcox. Thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:47:55.240 It's great to be on with you today, Brad.

00:47:56.980 My guest today was Brad Wilcox. He's the director of the National Marriage Project. You can find more

00:48:00.740 information about that at nationalmarriageproject.org. He also works with the Institute of

00:48:04.540 Family Studies and you find more information about them at family-studies.org. And you can

00:48:09.180 download that study about men in marriage there, um, that we referenced. So go check that out.

00:48:13.980 And also make sure to check out the show notes at aom.is slash men and marriage,

00:48:18.700 where you can find links to resources, um, that we discuss in this topic. So you can delve deeper

00:48:22.760 into this topic. Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For

00:48:35.540 more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com.

00:48:39.760 This show is recorded on clearcast.io. If you're a podcaster, go check it out. Something I developed

00:48:44.020 to make recording remote podcasts a lot easier and sound better for your listeners.

00:48:48.940 As always, appreciate your team support. And one of the ways you can do that is give us a review on

00:48:52.000 iTunes or Stitcher. It helps that a lot. Until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.

The Art of Manliness - February 14, 2017

#278： The Surprising Benefits of Marriage for Men

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript