The Art of Manliness - #282： How a Man Develops His Sense of Style

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. You've probably

00:00:18.500 encountered a man who has an impeccable sense of style. The way he presents himself down to

00:00:22.600 the smallest details creates an impression that seems confident but not fastidious. How does a

00:00:28.300 man develop this kind of style? Is it something innate or something acquired through lots of trial

00:00:32.660 and error? My guest Dave explores those questions in his latest book, Men in Style, Essays, Interviews,

00:00:38.120 and Considerations. His name is David Coggins. He's written for Esquire, The Financial Times,

00:00:42.620 and Traveler Magazine, among many. And in Men in Style, he interviews some of the biggest

00:00:47.600 tastemakers in menswear today to figure out the alchemy of the sartorial arts. Today on the show,

00:00:53.200 Dave and I discuss how a man's father leaves a lasting impression on his taste in clothing,

00:00:58.300 the style mistakes even the most dapper of grown men made as teenagers, and how the goal of style

00:01:03.180 isn't to religiously follow rules, but rather to feel comfortable in your own skin. Even if you

00:01:08.360 never thought much about how you dress, this is a fun podcast and it's your chance to hear about the

00:01:12.160 goofy clothes that I wore in high school. After the show's over, check out the show notes at

00:01:16.460 aom.is slash men in style.

00:01:27.280 David Coggins, welcome to the show.

00:01:30.180 Thanks. Good to be here, Brent.

00:01:31.780 All right. So you got a great book out. It's called Men in Style, Essays, Interviews, and

00:01:36.100 Considerations. We'll get more into the book in a little bit, but before we do, for those,

00:01:40.520 our listeners who aren't familiar with your work, can you give us a little bit about your background?

00:01:44.080 Yeah, that's of course. I grew up in Minneapolis. I'm a Midwesterner, but I've lived in New York for

00:01:50.480 about 20 years now. And I've written about art and for many years, just about art for Art in

00:01:57.480 America and other magazines. And then I started to kind of pulled back and wrote about things that

00:02:03.020 interested me like fly fishing and design and tailoring and wine and travel. And that's mostly

00:02:08.020 what I do now. I'm a contributing editor at Condé Nast Traveler. I write for Esquire and other places.

00:02:14.180 And this is my first book. So it was an exciting project to do.

00:02:17.660 Yeah. So what was the impetus behind the book? Why did you decide to write this book? Because

00:02:21.280 it's an issue. It's a style book, but instead of the sort of how to on style, right? Like how a suit

00:02:27.860 should fit, you know, how a cuff should break on your pant. It was just, you interviewed a bunch of

00:02:33.540 tastemakers in the worlds of men's style. So what was the inspiration behind that?

00:02:37.200 Well, that's a very good way to describe it. Well, for one thing, I was having not a crisis,

00:02:42.140 but I was about to turn 40. And I thought, I'd like to have a book. And so I looked back at kind

00:02:48.980 of the people I knew and cared about and things that had mattered to me. And I thought about

00:02:53.660 dressing and lessons we know about style, not as, like you said, how to, you know, what to wear to a

00:03:00.600 black tie event, but kind of how clothes express ourselves. And the men who I admire, who I think

00:03:06.780 dress well, how they have kind of a sense of who they are and how they fit into the world.

00:03:11.500 I think that happens as you get older. And you start to kind of look at your father and realize

00:03:16.480 kind of the way he was as a man. And so I, just like you said, I started to talk to people who I

00:03:22.740 felt were interesting. And a lot of them are friends of mine. And I said, you know, how did your

00:03:27.180 father dress? How did you dress as a boy? How did you kind of arrive at where you are in the world?

00:03:32.660 And it was really incredible to hear these stories from like really kind of hotshot guys talking about

00:03:37.960 bad decisions they made, the same sort of bad decisions we all make or have made at, you know,

00:03:42.340 what we wore to prom and other sort of disasters, bad tattoos and mustaches and things like that.

00:03:48.320 And, uh, and kind of how we arrived at the worldview we have now and sort of clothes were just a way to

00:03:54.420 express that, but a very powerful way. Yeah. So who were some of these tastemakers,

00:03:58.960 these guys you interviewed? Um, well, I think people, you know, like, uh,

00:04:02.800 Whit Stillman, the film director, uh, Sid Mashburn, who's got a great story, Gay Talese,

00:04:08.400 Jay McInerney, the writer, you know, a lot of editors and writers in New York, like Nick Sullivan at

00:04:13.520 Esquire, Michael Haney, um, uh, Jay Fieldon is who at the time was the editor at Town and Country.

00:04:19.800 Now he's the editor at Esquire. Um, Aaron Levine, who works at Abercrombie & Fitch now,

00:04:24.480 my friend, Michael Williams, you know, a lot, a lot of these people. And I think they were really,

00:04:28.880 you know, of course they're friends, but they were, they were really honest, which I liked.

00:04:33.380 And cause they didn't know what anyone else was going to say, you know, and sometimes when you

00:04:36.520 talk to people, they want to just, Oh, I only buy a denim from this place in Japan. You got to know

00:04:42.120 somebody, but it wasn't like that at all. They were, they were very frank and, and, um,

00:04:46.540 and really honest and humane. And I think one of the things that I like about the books was that

00:04:52.180 people really opened up and, uh, and, and you kind of felt closer to them because of it.

00:04:57.880 Right. So let's talk about some of these, these mistakes that these guys made along the way.

00:05:02.700 Well, let's not, let's not talk about the mistakes first. Let's talk about dads. That's one of my

00:05:06.040 favorite sections about, um, how these guys' dads influenced their style. Cause it's weird. You know,

00:05:12.880 I'm, I'm, you know, 30, almost I'm 34. Um, and I find myself like I'm dressing like my dad,

00:05:19.140 my dad, which is, which is weird, you know, because when you're a teenager, you think I'm

00:05:23.180 never going to do that. But like, I'm like the little subtle things, like that's what my dad did.

00:05:28.180 Um, so how did the fathers of the men you interviewed influence their style?

00:05:32.800 Well, that's, that's a really good thing to bring up. I mean, one thing that was cool is that

00:05:36.780 the men had, you know, all came from different backgrounds. So some of their fathers were really

00:05:41.600 dapper somewhere, you know, working men. And, uh, I think there's a time that you, you listen to your

00:05:47.320 dad when you're really young. Uh, he's a kind of, you know, the first man in your life. And then

00:05:51.800 there's a time when you go against what he says, just because he's your dad and you're 13 and you

00:05:56.220 can't tell what makes sense and what doesn't. And then I think the interesting part is sort of what

00:06:01.340 you're describing is that you sort of bend back to what, to the kind of smart things he said as you

00:06:06.680 get older and you can sort of see more clearly. And, uh, so I think the effects on people are

00:06:13.000 very strong. Sometimes you don't see them until you're older. And one cool thing in the book is

00:06:17.620 that I asked people for photos of their dads when their fathers were young, you know, when they were

00:06:22.280 in their twenties and thirties. And that's really probably the best part of the book to see all these

00:06:26.660 great guys from all over the world and kind of some of them dressed up and some of them dressed down

00:06:31.880 and you really get a sense of who they are. And, uh, and that was nice. And I think, you know,

00:06:36.700 when you see your dad, you're a kid, you just see him like as your dad. And as you get older,

00:06:41.120 you see him sort of as a man and the kind of decisions he's made. And you see him in a broader

00:06:45.620 view, you know, in a way that his life that didn't have something to do with you, you know,

00:06:51.040 because before you see him through the filter of just his responsibilities towards you. And I think

00:06:55.600 when you get older, you have a little bit better perspective on that.

00:06:58.320 Yeah. And how did your dad influence your, influence your style?

00:07:02.780 Well, my dad, I'm very close to him. I still am. I just, uh, traveled with him to Europe and he

00:07:08.140 very strongly, he influenced it. Um, his name is David as well. Um, he's an artist and a set designer

00:07:15.280 and a writer. Um, and he, he wanted me to dress, I guess you'd say appropriately, you know, I couldn't

00:07:22.520 wear a t-shirt. I had to wear a collared shirt and, uh, you know, there were definitely rules and he

00:07:27.420 was very important that I would know those rules before I broke them. I guess that people would

00:07:32.980 probably say I dressed a little formally, more formally than other people. Now that I'm older,

00:07:37.400 he thinks I'm too conservative that I'm always wearing a tie. He, he dresses sort of more casually

00:07:43.420 than I do. And since he's a big guy, he wears sort of more bold colors and patterns that I don't

00:07:48.540 quite do. Um, but it's, it's funny to, um, to see how that changes. And sometimes you, you learn

00:07:54.860 something from your dad and you kind of, you take it too far maybe. And maybe I did take it

00:07:59.240 a little too far cause I'm, uh, you know, I do like to wear a sport coat and a tie most days.

00:08:04.260 What's a good look.

00:08:05.900 Oh, thanks. Well, sometimes though you do it when you're, when you aren't made to do it

00:08:09.880 either. You know, like I think some people, you asked what people learn from their dad.

00:08:13.600 I think some people react against that. And some people, you know, it really depends on your

00:08:18.720 relationship, but I'm always fascinated by people who clearly share a lot in common with their

00:08:23.720 parents and those who, those who don't.

00:08:26.140 Yeah. And besides dads, uh, where did a lot of these men get their style influence when

00:08:31.060 they're trying to figure it out?

00:08:32.800 Well, that's really interesting too, because in some cases you have people who were from

00:08:36.780 far away from big cities. So they really had to study hard, you know, and that's been true

00:08:41.560 for 80 years. You know, if you're talking about Fred Astaire and Cole Porter, people who are

00:08:46.340 from the Midwest who worked really hard and came to New York and kind of invented themselves

00:08:51.580 as opposed to people from London and New York who grew up going to Paul Stewart's store

00:08:55.980 and were very, um, kind of urbane from, from an early age. So one thing that's interesting

00:09:01.400 to me is sort of how, how these men mostly who do live in, you know, New York and London

00:09:07.680 and kind of bigger cities now, how they kind of arrived at that. And it's not just their

00:09:13.320 fathers. At that time, many of them magazines were a big part in their lives in a way that's

00:09:19.560 kind of hard to imagine now, uh, Esquire and GQ, and this is before the internet really.

00:09:25.860 Um, and people reading those things and Playboy for that matter as well. Uh, and how they,

00:09:32.300 the, a magazine had a lot more cultural impact, uh, than I think they do now for, you know,

00:09:38.840 when you have Instagram and street style sites and a million other things. So you would, I also

00:09:44.380 think that magazines took their, viewed their mission differently than they really thought

00:09:49.740 that they were kind of an arbiter of taste and, and, and took that seriously. And, um,

00:09:55.060 I, I miss those days personally.

00:09:57.400 Yeah. I mean, when you were interviewing these guys, did any common style icons pop up over

00:10:03.240 and over again?

00:10:04.580 Well, the first thing I should say, it's something they had in common is that when they were boys,

00:10:08.260 uh, everybody had very strong opinions. That was something that I learned, like when they were

00:10:13.180 seven or that, you know, they liked to color a lot or they didn't like stripes or they would make

00:10:18.860 their mom go back to buy a different shirt cause they didn't like the one she got, or then they

00:10:23.200 would get, she got them a sweater that he begged, someone begged for, and then he refused to wear it.

00:10:27.500 So I was, it was very interesting to see how these strong opinions, even sort of before,

00:10:33.060 you know, you have opinions. Um, these, there were strong beliefs that these, uh, boys had,

00:10:39.900 uh, which was very interesting to me. And then I think you've got this, I think that, you know,

00:10:45.200 teenage life is so interesting. You know, in some cases you have uniforms at the school you go to,

00:10:51.240 and there were British guys in the book and they, they very much had, it was interesting to hear

00:10:56.280 just how intense and finely regulated those uniforms were. And I think some people that even,

00:11:01.980 they said they didn't like it at the time, but they, in retrospect, it kind of meant they didn't

00:11:05.720 have to make these intense decisions because they're, you know, clothing decisions when you're

00:11:10.020 14 and 15 seem like such monumental things. I think at that time too, you're, you know,

00:11:15.780 you're trying to express who you are and you don't quite have it down yet. And so you're,

00:11:20.380 maybe you want something with a big logo or a sports jersey or something like that. And

00:11:25.160 once you get out of the heat of the moment and the, uh, those don't always look so good

00:11:31.120 in the aftermath. Yeah. No, yeah. Let's talk about that. Like we said, like, when did a lot of these

00:11:36.080 guys get like, you know, establish their signature styles? You just said here that these kids, some

00:11:41.640 of these guys, when they were seven, they were very opinionated by their clothes. I wasn't at all.

00:11:45.060 Like if my mom bought me bugle boy from JCPenney, he's like, that's what I wore. I didn't care.

00:11:49.120 Right. Right. You weren't so difficult to some of these guys.

00:11:54.020 Right. So, but you know, a lot of these guys, um, they've got some unique, you know, you,

00:11:57.620 you look at them, that's like, that's Nick Wooster. That's his style. You look at Michael

00:12:01.380 Williams, like he's got his thing. When did a lot of guys, when did they establish that?

00:12:05.400 Was it in high school? Was it in college? Was it later in adulthood?

00:12:09.000 I think it's later. I mean, that's a really good question and it's a really basic thing.

00:12:12.600 I mean, something that I, I think as you, one thing I like about the way men dress is

00:12:18.140 a well-dressed man. He knows something about himself. You know, I think dressing well is about

00:12:23.560 self-knowledge. And when you see that, that doesn't mean you have to wear an Italian suit.

00:12:28.660 It can mean you wear the right jeans and t-shirt, but it looks like, you know, who you are and how

00:12:33.840 you fit into the world. And I think that almost by definition has to happen as you get older,

00:12:39.420 probably on the far side of 30, you know, it means you've had a few jobs and you, you know,

00:12:45.560 you know where you live and it kind of the same way your apartment or your house starts to kind

00:12:49.560 of come together at a certain point, you know, your wardrobe does too. And I think that, you know,

00:12:55.780 just in general, probably right around where you are at 34 is a good time. You kind of,

00:13:01.760 you're, you're a little more settled in what you want to do and you know what you need and how to

00:13:05.640 communicate it. And to be honest, you have enough money maybe to get the things that you want

00:13:09.440 and, and even to know what you don't need anymore. You've gone through some phases and you're like,

00:13:13.860 okay, we can put to bed some of these experiments. And, you know, I think having those phases is

00:13:19.980 natural though. I mean, you don't just come into the world perfectly formed. If you did, that would

00:13:24.200 almost be unnatural. Yeah. So what were some of these phases that people went through?

00:13:29.640 Well, I mean, it was funny to me to hear, to hear guys that they were particularly obsessed with,

00:13:36.900 with more, not even street style, just like really garish Abercrombie and Fitch things or more hip hop

00:13:42.940 clothes. And that sort of thing that people have in college that you don't really know that they

00:13:48.300 have if you've met them much later. So, you know, Michael Williams was, was in a more hip hop,

00:13:54.160 you know, zone when he went to college. And, you know, that's perfectly understandable,

00:13:58.040 but I was totally shocking to me, even though he's a good friend of mine, you know, somebody like

00:14:02.920 Jay McInerney, you know, who's a little bit older, he, he totally embraced the shoulder pads era in

00:14:10.360 the eighties. And, and I don't think anybody looks back on that look fondly, least of all Jay.

00:14:17.820 I mean, he was very kind to like, let us use what his author photo from that era where, you know,

00:14:24.060 it's like a, probably a fancy Giorgio Armani double breasted suit that just like three people

00:14:29.080 could fit into it. I mean, it's enormous. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. When I was in high

00:14:33.140 school, I went through, I was like in like the punk ska, like surfer. I went through that phase.

00:14:39.100 And then I went through like the, when like that, I was in high school and the whole like

00:14:41.860 swing revival happened, like big voodoo daddy, like me and my best bud, like we'd wear like

00:14:46.720 these dark denim jeans with like these silk bowling shirts. It was, I mean, as you look back,

00:14:51.520 I'm like, we look back and it's like, boy, God, we look, we looked hideous. Like it was just

00:14:55.520 absolutely understandable though. Like I love that. I mean, I think when you're younger too,

00:15:00.380 you look for, you know, tribes or groups to be a part of, you know, whether it's a band that you

00:15:05.960 really like or, or an era and, and that's totally natural to do. And you almost have to like live

00:15:13.380 through it in the moment. If somebody told you, yeah, maybe that a silk shirt a little bit too

00:15:18.520 blousey. You're like, no, it's perfect. I tracked it down. It took me two months to find it. I can't wait.

00:15:25.520 And you're probably, it's probably good that the internet didn't exist when I was,

00:15:30.620 you know, 18 or 20 because some of those things are better left in the past.

00:15:35.400 Yeah. I know. I feel bad for teenagers these days because like everything's documented. Like

00:15:40.140 there's no room for experimentation because it'll haunt you the rest of your life.

00:15:46.100 Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, did you go through any like weird phases growing up?

00:15:50.660 You know, it's funny. I, I, I have to say I was, I didn't go through crazy phases. I mean,

00:15:56.240 I once had like a goatee for a little while that is not doing anybody any favors. And, um,

00:16:02.460 I had like long sideburns from an early age that I don't really mind that I did that, but I think I,

00:16:08.180 I kind of just, I didn't even really know what I was doing. I just sort of had them all of a sudden.

00:16:12.480 And, and, uh, and sometimes you look at, I think when you look back at something like that, it's,

00:16:18.120 it's the earnestness that you, you have in your approach that is a little shocking. It's like you,

00:16:25.720 you seem to take, well, at least when I look back at myself, I took those things so seriously,

00:16:29.920 you know, and I believed in them so completely. I didn't, I had no, I don't think you have the

00:16:36.400 kind of self-awareness that you have as you get older. I mean, you think whatever band you're into

00:16:40.860 is the greatest band ever and whatever you're wearing is, you know, really important to you.

00:16:46.960 And, and you even kind of believe in the ad campaign and all the things that go around it.

00:16:51.480 And you don't have a, the kind of reflection you have when you're older and you can kind of pick

00:16:56.080 and choose a little bit more deliberately. And so when I look at myself, then I, I see somebody who,

00:17:04.120 who was, you know, I was very much into art and writing and literature, but really like,

00:17:09.460 like the idea of being an art student, you know, and kind of, and, and my version of what that looked

00:17:15.040 like was maybe influenced by the movie, some kind of wonderful, which was kind of a really good movie

00:17:21.640 in the eighties with Eric Stoltz as an art student, not surprisingly. And, and now it didn't quite have

00:17:28.360 the, I didn't, you're just not fully formed as yourself yet. And I think that's why it kind of

00:17:34.200 looks like the clothes are wearing you. You're not wearing the clothes.

00:17:37.220 Let's talk about style in general. So a common theme throughout the book was this idea of

00:17:45.060 authenticity and authenticity is, you know, it seems like it's an existential goal for a modern,

00:17:51.640 like everything has to be authentic, but you know, style is a lot about, you know, a performance

00:17:57.320 or an, of an image you want to put out to the world. So, you know, it can not be authentic,

00:18:02.900 right? Cause you're trying to convey something that maybe not, is not true to you, but you want

00:18:06.980 others to think of you. So I mean, is it, is it possible to be both stylish and authentic? And if

00:18:12.420 so, any notable stylish men who have combined the two? That's a great question. I think there's

00:18:17.700 always going to be some friction because how you dress is definitely a presentation. Uh, I don't know

00:18:24.520 if that makes it unnatural, but it's definitely, you're, you're presenting something to the world.

00:18:28.620 And, and I like that. I, I, when I see somebody who's very well-dressed, I feel reassurance from

00:18:34.840 him. I think he's doing something that he's, he's, he's showing the world that he kind of wants the

00:18:40.220 world to be a little bit more formal or a little bit of a better place. And you know, you can get

00:18:44.920 carried away with that, but I like to see a man who's dressed well on an airplane. I feel like he's

00:18:48.960 trying to, to lighten the mood a little bit. And at the same time, I think a well-dressed man does it

00:18:53.880 for himself as well. So you have this balance, something for the public and for the people you

00:18:58.420 see and even respect and to formality and, and a certain amount of like good manners. And then

00:19:04.200 also the pleasure someone gets out of clothing that they care about. And that involves a certain

00:19:11.040 type of secret pleasure that I think most well-dressed men have. I mean, when I see somebody

00:19:16.040 like Gay Talese, who's, you know, a legendary figure, doesn't need me to tell him he's well-dressed.

00:19:21.300 I can see that he does it partly because of the way he views New York and social life here.

00:19:26.300 And also legitimate pleasure he gets from tailored clothing and traditional clothes made well.

00:19:31.880 Almost everything he has, there are details that nobody would know about beside him.

00:19:36.420 And at the same time, when he walks into a room, he certainly recognize it. So

00:19:40.020 that's a good example of somebody who, who has it both ways. And I think most people,

00:19:45.180 when they look at him would say, he's got an authentic sense of who he is. And I, and I think

00:19:50.180 that's a good thing. But of course, something like that, you can't just try to be authentic.

00:19:55.520 I think in many cases, it's what you arrive at over time. And I think that is really what,

00:20:01.400 one of the themes of the book and really one of the themes of the things that I care about is how

00:20:06.120 you kind of, when you know what is enough, you know, and if you go, and if you think about any

00:20:11.400 place you care about or any artwork you love, whoever's made it or whoever's behind it knows when

00:20:17.240 enough is enough, whether, and when they want to do something more, and that's a little more

00:20:22.700 flamboyant and it feels right, or when they know when to keep something simple and they know that

00:20:26.720 that's right. And I think that that is really, um, a goal that we all should have, but of course

00:20:32.620 you can't pursue it. It sort of has to come to you.

00:20:36.460 We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:20:38.460 And now back to the show.

00:20:41.740 Yeah. Because once you do that hard pursuit, the clothes start wearing you instead of you

00:20:48.140 wearing the clothes.

00:20:49.700 Exactly.

00:20:50.460 Right. You can always tell the guys that's, you can tell he's uncomfortable.

00:20:54.540 Exactly. I mean, the sense of comfort is huge, you know, and I think that one, one thing that

00:20:58.820 makes me a little bit sad is that for a variety of reasons, men in, in America have a kind of

00:21:05.020 resistance toward suits and sport coats and formality, partly because they had a bad experiences

00:21:11.500 when they were young. And, and then they all, they sort of associate it with conformity or

00:21:17.540 businesses or, or wearing them against their will. And that's really too bad because suits can be very

00:21:24.740 comfortable and they can be very expressive and very personal. And most men look really good in

00:21:29.420 them if they're good. You know, if you go into get a bad one, of course, it's not going to be a nice

00:21:34.280 experience, but there's no reason that a man shouldn't have a good suit and look, look terrific

00:21:38.580 in it.

00:21:39.580 Yeah. And I love that point you made earlier about, uh, dressing up to sort of brings a little

00:21:44.380 bit of format, like dressing up for others because you want to make others feel good.

00:21:48.400 Cause I've noticed that too, like when people like dress for the occasion, like it makes the occasion

00:21:53.100 feel, I don't know, has more heft to it, I guess more.

00:21:57.260 Absolutely.

00:21:57.920 And, uh, so I feel like something that's something we've lost with our very casual culture here in the

00:22:02.080 States. That's a really good point. And it's a funny thing because people respond when you dress

00:22:07.580 up. I mean, if you, if you show up and see your girlfriend and you're dressed well, she's, she's

00:22:12.800 going to like it. I mean, there's not very few men I know whose wives or girlfriends don't like it

00:22:17.220 when they dress up, but beside the people who are close to you in your life, I mean, just in general,

00:22:21.480 if you're, if you're in a restaurant and you see somebody who's ready to be there, it's really nice.

00:22:27.020 And I think, um, I always like to go to see what people are wearing at the opera in New

00:22:32.240 York. It's a very international crowd and to see what people's versions of the best thing

00:22:37.180 in their wardrobe is usually pretty funny, but it's also sweet and reassuring and nice

00:22:42.100 to see people like even men, there's a group of people who get together and they just all

00:22:45.760 wear tuxedos and it's like, it's fantastic. And, uh, and I think we, um, somehow we've gotten

00:22:53.080 to a place where we view, uh, dressing down as some sort of more to use. I mean, authentic

00:22:59.440 is a word to use before, but it's like, there's no artifice in it. And you know, that works

00:23:03.420 if you've, if you own Facebook dress, however you want, if you don't, you do not look good

00:23:08.740 in a hooded sweatshirt. And so don't wear one to a meeting or even out of the house.

00:23:13.400 Do you, uh, do you work from home?

00:23:15.240 I do.

00:23:16.140 So do you dress up like at home?

00:23:18.680 I do. I mean, I have a dress up. I mean, I don't wear a sport coat in the house, but

00:23:23.960 I, I like to, I just feel more pulled together. If I have, you know, uh, I have a shirt, a

00:23:32.880 college shirt and a big sweater that I like to write in. And I mean, it's definitely what

00:23:36.940 I wear inside. I guess it would be kind of in the Mr. Rogers vibe, but, uh, I, I absolutely

00:23:42.660 like to feel, um, pulled together. I just feel more alert that way. Um, or even if

00:23:50.220 I, yeah, I think that's a good, good way to say it.

00:23:53.160 Yeah. Here's another thing I've, I've noticed too. Um, as we, since we've published, you

00:23:57.780 know, style content on our site and I find a lot of the style content that we put on

00:24:02.600 the site, it's geared more towards like 30 year old, 40 year old guys, but there's

00:24:08.100 like, there's like, I feel like there's this, but I always get pushback from even guys who

00:24:11.520 are in their late twenties, thirties, forties that we, the idea of style we're promoting

00:24:16.300 is too old. Like it makes, it makes everyone looks like dads. Um, like that's a bad, like

00:24:21.740 it's like, it's a bad thing, um, to look older and mature. Have you seen that as well?

00:24:27.500 I mean, that's an interesting point. I think the problem, the issue is when you see these

00:24:32.900 clothes, first of all, I love the way old men dress. I have no problem with that. My, my 1.00

00:24:36.940 dream style is like an old Italian uncle. I, and I, when I go to Italy or when I look

00:24:42.980 at style sites, I like to see what older Italian men wear because they have this sense of formality 1.00

00:24:49.340 and a sense of self-expression and, you know, Italian tailors are fantastic. So they really

00:24:54.320 look terrific. I think the, when people, when you talk about complaints that people have

00:24:59.220 a pushback, they're, they're not seeing how it becomes, how the clothes change when they

00:25:06.000 wear them. I think that there's a real, um, issue with editorial and magazines and online

00:25:12.860 about, it's like dress like Don Draper. Now that's a terrible idea. Like Don Draper looks

00:25:18.640 great. The show is taking place in the sixties. Jon Hamm is, you know, superhuman and the clothes

00:25:24.900 are made to flatter him and the era that he's in. If you need to know what makes sense for

00:25:30.740 you, how are you built? What's your coloration? You know, how big is your head? What, what

00:25:35.540 color is your beard? And then you say, okay, well, having a narrow lapel, super small collar,

00:25:40.660 really tight tie makes your head look big. And, and it looks silly. Like you just wanted to 0.99

00:25:44.980 dress like someone you saw in Mad Men. And, and I think people have to start with who, who

00:25:51.300 they are and what they need and, and then work from there. And, and that's something that I think,

00:25:59.580 um, partly because of the way clothes are sold, we have brands that have very strong

00:26:05.660 sensibilities so they can kind of communicate to people what they believe in. And I'm not sure

00:26:11.120 that's a really good thing. If you went back 50 years or a little bit more, you know, Brooks

00:26:16.840 Brothers or, you know, even a proper tailor is really trying to find what makes sense for you.

00:26:22.500 And, uh, I think when people start with that, they're not going to look old in a suit. They're

00:26:27.160 not going to even look old in a cardigan. If they, if they bring some energy to it and everything and

00:26:31.520 things fit correctly and the colors, right, they'll look really alive and they'll be surprised at how

00:26:35.980 good they look. And they have to give themselves a chance too. I mean, I think when people wear

00:26:39.780 something the first time I have complete belief and totally that wear it around your house by

00:26:46.140 yourself. Like if you wear something, people shouldn't know it's new. It should look like

00:26:50.640 you've had it for a long time and you shouldn't look like you're trying to decide if you like it

00:26:54.120 or not. You know, if I get something crazy, I'll keep it in my closet for a year. And then when I'm

00:26:58.720 ready, I'll wear it out. Or I'll even just wear it around the house to kind of break it in.

00:27:02.760 Fred Astaire threw his suits against the wall to take the newness out of them. And I think

00:27:07.720 once something looks like it's yours, it'll be, it'll look good.

00:27:12.160 Okay. Um, you also interviewed, um, some women, uh, take on the way that what they like to see 1.00

00:27:18.620 on men, any insights there for guys or were the tastes so varied that there isn't really good

00:27:23.100 advice there? Well, the basic insight is one we all know, which is that women are smarter than men. 0.99

00:27:28.440 And that it was amazing to talk to the women I talked to were writers and, and kind of creative

00:27:34.800 types and incredibly smart. And I think what they, it was interesting to talk to them because

00:27:40.820 it was about their relationships with men and the clothes that men have. And so I think they,

00:27:47.920 they, they like people dressed up and they like men also to be masculine and manly. And, um, and I think

00:27:56.920 that at least the people I talked to, and I would say the women I know in general find it not a feminine,

00:28:04.560 in any way, but very masculine, if a man is comfortable dressing up or even comfortable

00:28:10.260 wearing pink or that, that there's, um, that, that that's something that they find attractive.

00:28:16.920 And, and I, and I think that's true. So that, that, I don't know if that was a surprise. It was

00:28:21.840 nice to kind of have it confirmed. And I think that men, men don't like it when they feel like

00:28:30.200 they're being dictated to. And I, that was a reminder there as well. You know, if, if someone,

00:28:35.180 they don't want something to be forced down them, whether it's by a store or their girlfriend or

00:28:39.160 whomever else. And so sometimes you kind of have to let the man feel like he made the discovery

00:28:44.240 himself, you know, that he came to it himself and then he'll think it's okay. But if, if somebody's

00:28:49.580 stressing on, Oh, you've got to wear more color. Oh, you should really wear this. He's, he's going to

00:28:54.180 resist because some things men just don't grow out of. And that, that type of resistance is one of

00:28:59.020 them, I think. Yeah. So like we said earlier, there isn't a lot of prescriptive advice on style

00:29:05.780 in the book, which is, which I, which one thing as I loved, it was refreshing to see that in a

00:29:09.560 style book, but I'm, I'm curious. Do you think there are items that every guy should have in his

00:29:14.380 wardrobe? Oh, absolutely. I mean, I've been asked this since the book came out, people kind of want

00:29:20.700 to know, well, what do I think? Where do you start? And my, and it's hard of course, but my basic rule is

00:29:25.520 if Fred Astaire wore it in a film, it's probably a good idea. And if you go back and look at Fred

00:29:31.060 Astaire's style, he wore classics, you know, gray flannel suit, blue blazer, you know, Oxford shirts,

00:29:38.820 white bucks. He looked terrific. I think, I, I think even if you don't wear a suit a lot, you should

00:29:45.380 have a good suit because when you wear it, it's almost always going to be an important situation

00:29:50.100 and you should be comfortable in it. Uh, and so, but people don't look at it that way. They say,

00:29:56.540 oh, I only wear this once a year. So I'm, it's not a priority for me, but I would look at it the

00:30:00.680 exact opposite way. And so I think a good gray suit or a good blue suit that you're comfortable in at a

00:30:07.200 place that seems to understand you is a good thing to have. And an unstructured sport coat, I think is a

00:30:13.800 really good thing to have too. A lot of companies are making them now and it, it's something you can wear

00:30:18.400 with jeans, you can wear it with trousers. And I think it, it looks really good. I mean, I would,

00:30:23.160 I think men should get kind of one of the classic things like a good English brogue. You know, you

00:30:28.640 don't, if you have the staples in your wardrobe, you'll, you'll wear them more than you think. I

00:30:33.620 don't think you need a lot of clothes. I would get usually the best version of something you can

00:30:38.340 afford and then try to, try to wear it a lot. And it will, I think you'll be happy you have it.

00:30:43.140 I mean, I can, if you really want to get specific, I also think not knit ties look really good on men.

00:30:47.800 And you know, you can, you don't have to think about pattern, but the texture is really nice.

00:30:52.740 You've got some color in there. I don't think men take advantage enough of, of texture and color. 0.72

00:30:57.820 I think they get kind of overwhelmed with concerns of pattern. And I don't need, I think that can be

00:31:03.740 distracting. I mean, I wear a very simple pattern clothes myself for the most part, but I, I take a lot

00:31:10.680 of advantage of, of texture and color. So going back to Fred Astaire, that guy wore a cravat sometimes.

00:31:16.940 Okay. No, the cravat, cravat, cravat is not for, if you can dance like Fred Astaire, you can wear a

00:31:22.580 cravat. That is a little bit dandy-ish and people who are going to wear it probably even have one

00:31:28.720 and know they're going to wear it. So that you got to draw a line somewhere. I mean, I think

00:31:32.440 in general, sorry to cut you off, is that, is that people, um, you want to stay within a comfort

00:31:40.520 zone and, uh, and that, that you can push it slightly. You know, like I, you know, I have a

00:31:48.700 velvet coat. I never thought I would have one and now I'm used to it and I love it. But the cravat

00:31:53.540 is definitely, um, a step that most men are going to find uncomfortable.

00:31:57.420 Do you know any like modern guys who can pull off the cravat?

00:32:00.780 You know, I, I think I do, but they're, they're really in a, a rarefied group of people. And,

00:32:07.100 and that I think the thing that I like about really successful dandies is that they, they

00:32:15.240 make what they're doing seem natural, even when it's very rarefied. And I've, I know some

00:32:22.660 people who've worn some very, very extreme clothing and when they do it, it, it seems

00:32:29.960 completely natural. I mean, even, even Nick Wooster, one of the keys to his success and

00:32:36.380 something I really admire about him is he makes most of what he wears seem like completely

00:32:42.460 understandable and, and how you see the world the way he sees it. And, and when you have

00:32:49.280 that confidence, um, that's a really good thing. And I also think people will go a lot

00:32:54.420 further with you than you think. You know, if you, if you wear a hat, that's a little

00:32:59.460 daring. The first time your friends give you a hard time. The second time they're kind

00:33:03.560 of used to it. The third time they think it's your signature style and you're described as,

00:33:08.080 oh, you know, the guy with the cool hat, you know, and I think when you, you want to wear

00:33:11.540 something enough to make it yours and once it becomes yours, that's a very strong place

00:33:15.680 to be. So besides clothing, um, where else can men express their sense of style?

00:33:23.660 Oh, that's, that's a great question. I mean, it's funny though, if you, if you see a man

00:33:28.240 that you think is well-dressed, you kind of think he's going to be good at some other

00:33:32.100 things too. You know, I, I mean, the men I, a lot of men I like are, you know, they, they're

00:33:37.900 good cooks, not in a necessarily a flamboyant way, but they're capable in the kitchen. You

00:33:43.740 know, they're well-read. Uh, they like to travel and travel a certain way. You know,

00:33:48.260 you'd take their advice about places to visit. You know, I think these are the things that

00:33:52.120 just happen as you get older. And if you're curious or like to interact with the world

00:33:55.940 in a certain way, it's no surprise that you know about those things. I mean, I think something

00:34:00.620 about the book is the book is not trying to get men to dress like me. I don't want men to, 0.96

00:34:05.560 I'm happy to be look different than other people. I think it's meant to dress like who they

00:34:10.320 are and maybe a slightly better version of who they are. I think you want to ask a little bit

00:34:15.680 more of yourself and, and especially as you get older and hopefully have more success and are more

00:34:21.920 kind of secure in where you are in the world. And so I think once you have that, that then a certain

00:34:29.120 amount of, you know, sense of who you are, that, that will go into other, other places too,

00:34:35.320 how your home is decorated, how you, you know, the way you travel, who, how you entertain when

00:34:41.240 you have people over. I think all of those are an expression of who you are and the things you

00:34:45.640 care about. And I respond to all of those things when they're done well by other people.

00:34:50.800 Yeah. One of my favorite sections in the book was talking about like things that guys collected

00:34:56.140 or they, what they collect. There was like this just really just, sometimes it was just really

00:35:01.560 weird. Some of the stuff they collect, but like, but it like, it made sense when, you know, cause

00:35:05.520 you, you read, you know, what their other insights were about style, but like that weird thing they

00:35:09.140 collected is like, Oh yeah, that makes sense that he would do that.

00:35:11.980 Well, that it's funny you say that. I mean, there's also a part in the book too, about what

00:35:15.780 are things you've inherited from your father and some, or grandfather. And in some cases,

00:35:20.680 it's quite obvious why something was passed down. It's a very nice watch or it was dog tags

00:35:25.840 from somebody who was in the war. And other times it, it isn't obvious why that thing was

00:35:32.260 passed down, but you could tell that it's important to the person because there's a history behind

00:35:37.120 it. Uh, whether it's just a Western shirt or a Stetson hat. And, and I like these things

00:35:43.480 that have meaning that people give to them over time and whether it's a collection or something

00:35:50.020 that's been inherited. And I think that's, that's appealing to me. I'm not as interested

00:35:56.060 in things that have, that someone, a marketer is trying to tell you they have meaning because

00:36:01.340 there's a logo on it or it's really expensive or a capsule collection or a collaboration or

00:36:06.200 hard to get, or there's a line out the store. I mean, those things will come and go, but the

00:36:11.500 things that your father gave you or that you've collected because you have an affinity towards

00:36:16.660 whatever the thing is, you know, that's, that's more meaningful. And I think we should look for

00:36:21.960 the meaning we give to things, not the meaning that magazines or, or marketers give things. And

00:36:28.400 so I, that's hopefully a lesson people will take from the book. Well, David, this has been a great

00:36:33.340 conversation. Um, where can people learn more about your work in the book? You know, I actually

00:36:37.360 got a website for this book. I, it was funny when, when you get to a point where you, it seems like

00:36:44.440 everything has come and gone and we learn in different ways. And at one point, everybody had

00:36:48.240 a website that nobody did. If you go to davidrcoggins.com, you can read part of the book.

00:36:54.840 Um, you know, I'm, I'm on Instagram. I love Instagram. Um, that's also David R. Coggins. And,

00:37:02.000 uh, and if you Google me, I don't know, I've got articles everywhere, probably too much

00:37:05.660 for people to read about. One thing though, that's coming out that people might be interested in is in the

00:37:10.080 March issue of Condé Nast Traveler. I went on a road trip in, through the Scottish Highlands,

00:37:15.820 uh, on our way with my friend, Matt and my friend, Jake to the, um, Harris where Harris Tweed is made.

00:37:23.000 And that was a really, really cool trip and a really fun thing to do. And talking about traditional

00:37:27.960 ways of doing things, Harris Tweed, which has been made in very specific ways for

00:37:34.220 hundreds of years, it was very cool to see the sheds where it's made, where the, where the

00:37:39.720 tweet is made. And so that was a fun, a fun trip and a, and a cool thing that I think

00:37:43.900 some of your listeners might be into. And that will be on newsstands in two weeks and online

00:37:51.220 around that time too. Cool. Well, David Coggins, thank you so much for your time. It's been a

00:37:55.380 pleasure. Thank you. My pleasure. My guest today was David Coggins. He's the author of the book

00:37:59.000 Men in Style, Essays, Interviews, and Considerations. It's available on amazon.com and bookstores

00:38:03.700 everywhere. You can find out more information about his work at davidrcoggins.com and make sure to check out

00:38:09.220 our show notes at aom.is slash men in style, where you can find links to resources where

00:38:13.740 you can delve deeper into this topic. Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of

00:38:22.660 Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website

00:38:26.720 at artofmanliness.com. And if you enjoy the show and have gotten something out of it, I'd appreciate

00:38:30.780 if you give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher. That helps that a lot. As always, thank you for your

00:38:35.320 community support. And until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.

00:38:39.220 I'll see you next time.

The Art of Manliness - February 28, 2017

#282： How a Man Develops His Sense of Style

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