#282： How a Man Develops His Sense of Style
Episode Stats
Summary
You ve probably encountered a man who has an impeccable sense of style. The way he presents himself down to the smallest details creates an impression that seems confident but not fastidious. How does a man develop this kind of style? Is it something innate or something acquired through lots of trial and error? My guest, David Coggins, explores those questions in his new book, Men in Style: Essays, Briefings, Interviews, and Considerations.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. You've probably
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encountered a man who has an impeccable sense of style. The way he presents himself down to
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the smallest details creates an impression that seems confident but not fastidious. How does a
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man develop this kind of style? Is it something innate or something acquired through lots of trial
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and error? My guest Dave explores those questions in his latest book, Men in Style, Essays, Interviews,
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and Considerations. His name is David Coggins. He's written for Esquire, The Financial Times,
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and Traveler Magazine, among many. And in Men in Style, he interviews some of the biggest
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tastemakers in menswear today to figure out the alchemy of the sartorial arts. Today on the show,
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Dave and I discuss how a man's father leaves a lasting impression on his taste in clothing,
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the style mistakes even the most dapper of grown men made as teenagers, and how the goal of style
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isn't to religiously follow rules, but rather to feel comfortable in your own skin. Even if you
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never thought much about how you dress, this is a fun podcast and it's your chance to hear about the
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goofy clothes that I wore in high school. After the show's over, check out the show notes at
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All right. So you got a great book out. It's called Men in Style, Essays, Interviews, and
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Considerations. We'll get more into the book in a little bit, but before we do, for those,
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our listeners who aren't familiar with your work, can you give us a little bit about your background?
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Yeah, that's of course. I grew up in Minneapolis. I'm a Midwesterner, but I've lived in New York for
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about 20 years now. And I've written about art and for many years, just about art for Art in
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America and other magazines. And then I started to kind of pulled back and wrote about things that
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interested me like fly fishing and design and tailoring and wine and travel. And that's mostly
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what I do now. I'm a contributing editor at Condé Nast Traveler. I write for Esquire and other places.
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And this is my first book. So it was an exciting project to do.
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Yeah. So what was the impetus behind the book? Why did you decide to write this book? Because
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it's an issue. It's a style book, but instead of the sort of how to on style, right? Like how a suit
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should fit, you know, how a cuff should break on your pant. It was just, you interviewed a bunch of
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tastemakers in the worlds of men's style. So what was the inspiration behind that?
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Well, that's a very good way to describe it. Well, for one thing, I was having not a crisis,
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but I was about to turn 40. And I thought, I'd like to have a book. And so I looked back at kind
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of the people I knew and cared about and things that had mattered to me. And I thought about
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dressing and lessons we know about style, not as, like you said, how to, you know, what to wear to a
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black tie event, but kind of how clothes express ourselves. And the men who I admire, who I think
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dress well, how they have kind of a sense of who they are and how they fit into the world.
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I think that happens as you get older. And you start to kind of look at your father and realize
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kind of the way he was as a man. And so I, just like you said, I started to talk to people who I
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felt were interesting. And a lot of them are friends of mine. And I said, you know, how did your
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father dress? How did you dress as a boy? How did you kind of arrive at where you are in the world?
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And it was really incredible to hear these stories from like really kind of hotshot guys talking about
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bad decisions they made, the same sort of bad decisions we all make or have made at, you know,
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what we wore to prom and other sort of disasters, bad tattoos and mustaches and things like that.
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And, uh, and kind of how we arrived at the worldview we have now and sort of clothes were just a way to
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express that, but a very powerful way. Yeah. So who were some of these tastemakers,
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these guys you interviewed? Um, well, I think people, you know, like, uh,
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Whit Stillman, the film director, uh, Sid Mashburn, who's got a great story, Gay Talese,
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Jay McInerney, the writer, you know, a lot of editors and writers in New York, like Nick Sullivan at
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Esquire, Michael Haney, um, uh, Jay Fieldon is who at the time was the editor at Town and Country.
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Now he's the editor at Esquire. Um, Aaron Levine, who works at Abercrombie & Fitch now,
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my friend, Michael Williams, you know, a lot, a lot of these people. And I think they were really,
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you know, of course they're friends, but they were, they were really honest, which I liked.
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And cause they didn't know what anyone else was going to say, you know, and sometimes when you
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talk to people, they want to just, Oh, I only buy a denim from this place in Japan. You got to know
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somebody, but it wasn't like that at all. They were, they were very frank and, and, um,
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and really honest and humane. And I think one of the things that I like about the books was that
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people really opened up and, uh, and, and you kind of felt closer to them because of it.
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Right. So let's talk about some of these, these mistakes that these guys made along the way.
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Well, let's not, let's not talk about the mistakes first. Let's talk about dads. That's one of my
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favorite sections about, um, how these guys' dads influenced their style. Cause it's weird. You know,
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I'm, I'm, you know, 30, almost I'm 34. Um, and I find myself like I'm dressing like my dad,
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my dad, which is, which is weird, you know, because when you're a teenager, you think I'm
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never going to do that. But like, I'm like the little subtle things, like that's what my dad did.
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Um, so how did the fathers of the men you interviewed influence their style?
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Well, that's, that's a really good thing to bring up. I mean, one thing that was cool is that
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the men had, you know, all came from different backgrounds. So some of their fathers were really
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dapper somewhere, you know, working men. And, uh, I think there's a time that you, you listen to your
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dad when you're really young. Uh, he's a kind of, you know, the first man in your life. And then
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there's a time when you go against what he says, just because he's your dad and you're 13 and you
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can't tell what makes sense and what doesn't. And then I think the interesting part is sort of what
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you're describing is that you sort of bend back to what, to the kind of smart things he said as you
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get older and you can sort of see more clearly. And, uh, so I think the effects on people are
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very strong. Sometimes you don't see them until you're older. And one cool thing in the book is
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that I asked people for photos of their dads when their fathers were young, you know, when they were
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in their twenties and thirties. And that's really probably the best part of the book to see all these
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great guys from all over the world and kind of some of them dressed up and some of them dressed down
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and you really get a sense of who they are. And, uh, and that was nice. And I think, you know,
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when you see your dad, you're a kid, you just see him like as your dad. And as you get older,
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you see him sort of as a man and the kind of decisions he's made. And you see him in a broader
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view, you know, in a way that his life that didn't have something to do with you, you know,
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because before you see him through the filter of just his responsibilities towards you. And I think
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when you get older, you have a little bit better perspective on that.
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Yeah. And how did your dad influence your, influence your style?
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Well, my dad, I'm very close to him. I still am. I just, uh, traveled with him to Europe and he
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very strongly, he influenced it. Um, his name is David as well. Um, he's an artist and a set designer
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and a writer. Um, and he, he wanted me to dress, I guess you'd say appropriately, you know, I couldn't
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wear a t-shirt. I had to wear a collared shirt and, uh, you know, there were definitely rules and he
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was very important that I would know those rules before I broke them. I guess that people would
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probably say I dressed a little formally, more formally than other people. Now that I'm older,
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he thinks I'm too conservative that I'm always wearing a tie. He, he dresses sort of more casually
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than I do. And since he's a big guy, he wears sort of more bold colors and patterns that I don't
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quite do. Um, but it's, it's funny to, um, to see how that changes. And sometimes you, you learn
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something from your dad and you kind of, you take it too far maybe. And maybe I did take it
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a little too far cause I'm, uh, you know, I do like to wear a sport coat and a tie most days.
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Oh, thanks. Well, sometimes though you do it when you're, when you aren't made to do it
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either. You know, like I think some people, you asked what people learn from their dad.
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I think some people react against that. And some people, you know, it really depends on your
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relationship, but I'm always fascinated by people who clearly share a lot in common with their
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Yeah. And besides dads, uh, where did a lot of these men get their style influence when
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Well, that's really interesting too, because in some cases you have people who were from
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far away from big cities. So they really had to study hard, you know, and that's been true
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for 80 years. You know, if you're talking about Fred Astaire and Cole Porter, people who are
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from the Midwest who worked really hard and came to New York and kind of invented themselves
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as opposed to people from London and New York who grew up going to Paul Stewart's store
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and were very, um, kind of urbane from, from an early age. So one thing that's interesting
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to me is sort of how, how these men mostly who do live in, you know, New York and London
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and kind of bigger cities now, how they kind of arrived at that. And it's not just their
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fathers. At that time, many of them magazines were a big part in their lives in a way that's
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kind of hard to imagine now, uh, Esquire and GQ, and this is before the internet really.
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Um, and people reading those things and Playboy for that matter as well. Uh, and how they,
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the, a magazine had a lot more cultural impact, uh, than I think they do now for, you know,
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when you have Instagram and street style sites and a million other things. So you would, I also
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think that magazines took their, viewed their mission differently than they really thought
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that they were kind of an arbiter of taste and, and, and took that seriously. And, um,
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Yeah. I mean, when you were interviewing these guys, did any common style icons pop up over
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Well, the first thing I should say, it's something they had in common is that when they were boys,
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uh, everybody had very strong opinions. That was something that I learned, like when they were
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seven or that, you know, they liked to color a lot or they didn't like stripes or they would make
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their mom go back to buy a different shirt cause they didn't like the one she got, or then they
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would get, she got them a sweater that he begged, someone begged for, and then he refused to wear it.
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So I was, it was very interesting to see how these strong opinions, even sort of before,
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you know, you have opinions. Um, these, there were strong beliefs that these, uh, boys had,
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uh, which was very interesting to me. And then I think you've got this, I think that, you know,
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teenage life is so interesting. You know, in some cases you have uniforms at the school you go to,
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and there were British guys in the book and they, they very much had, it was interesting to hear
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just how intense and finely regulated those uniforms were. And I think some people that even,
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they said they didn't like it at the time, but they, in retrospect, it kind of meant they didn't
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have to make these intense decisions because they're, you know, clothing decisions when you're
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14 and 15 seem like such monumental things. I think at that time too, you're, you know,
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you're trying to express who you are and you don't quite have it down yet. And so you're,
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maybe you want something with a big logo or a sports jersey or something like that. And
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once you get out of the heat of the moment and the, uh, those don't always look so good
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in the aftermath. Yeah. No, yeah. Let's talk about that. Like we said, like, when did a lot of these
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guys get like, you know, establish their signature styles? You just said here that these kids, some
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of these guys, when they were seven, they were very opinionated by their clothes. I wasn't at all.
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Like if my mom bought me bugle boy from JCPenney, he's like, that's what I wore. I didn't care.
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Right. Right. You weren't so difficult to some of these guys.
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Right. So, but you know, a lot of these guys, um, they've got some unique, you know, you,
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you look at them, that's like, that's Nick Wooster. That's his style. You look at Michael
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Williams, like he's got his thing. When did a lot of guys, when did they establish that?
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Was it in high school? Was it in college? Was it later in adulthood?
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I think it's later. I mean, that's a really good question and it's a really basic thing.
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I mean, something that I, I think as you, one thing I like about the way men dress is
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a well-dressed man. He knows something about himself. You know, I think dressing well is about
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self-knowledge. And when you see that, that doesn't mean you have to wear an Italian suit.
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It can mean you wear the right jeans and t-shirt, but it looks like, you know, who you are and how
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you fit into the world. And I think that almost by definition has to happen as you get older,
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probably on the far side of 30, you know, it means you've had a few jobs and you, you know,
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you know where you live and it kind of the same way your apartment or your house starts to kind
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of come together at a certain point, you know, your wardrobe does too. And I think that, you know,
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just in general, probably right around where you are at 34 is a good time. You kind of,
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you're, you're a little more settled in what you want to do and you know what you need and how to
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communicate it. And to be honest, you have enough money maybe to get the things that you want
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and, and even to know what you don't need anymore. You've gone through some phases and you're like,
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okay, we can put to bed some of these experiments. And, you know, I think having those phases is
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natural though. I mean, you don't just come into the world perfectly formed. If you did, that would
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almost be unnatural. Yeah. So what were some of these phases that people went through?
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Well, I mean, it was funny to me to hear, to hear guys that they were particularly obsessed with,
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with more, not even street style, just like really garish Abercrombie and Fitch things or more hip hop
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clothes. And that sort of thing that people have in college that you don't really know that they
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have if you've met them much later. So, you know, Michael Williams was, was in a more hip hop,
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you know, zone when he went to college. And, you know, that's perfectly understandable,
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but I was totally shocking to me, even though he's a good friend of mine, you know, somebody like
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Jay McInerney, you know, who's a little bit older, he, he totally embraced the shoulder pads era in
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the eighties. And, and I don't think anybody looks back on that look fondly, least of all Jay.
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I mean, he was very kind to like, let us use what his author photo from that era where, you know,
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it's like a, probably a fancy Giorgio Armani double breasted suit that just like three people
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could fit into it. I mean, it's enormous. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. When I was in high
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school, I went through, I was like in like the punk ska, like surfer. I went through that phase.
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And then I went through like the, when like that, I was in high school and the whole like
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swing revival happened, like big voodoo daddy, like me and my best bud, like we'd wear like
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these dark denim jeans with like these silk bowling shirts. It was, I mean, as you look back,
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I'm like, we look back and it's like, boy, God, we look, we looked hideous. Like it was just
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absolutely understandable though. Like I love that. I mean, I think when you're younger too,
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you look for, you know, tribes or groups to be a part of, you know, whether it's a band that you
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really like or, or an era and, and that's totally natural to do. And you almost have to like live
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through it in the moment. If somebody told you, yeah, maybe that a silk shirt a little bit too
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blousey. You're like, no, it's perfect. I tracked it down. It took me two months to find it. I can't wait.
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And you're probably, it's probably good that the internet didn't exist when I was,
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you know, 18 or 20 because some of those things are better left in the past.
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Yeah. I know. I feel bad for teenagers these days because like everything's documented. Like
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there's no room for experimentation because it'll haunt you the rest of your life.
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Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, did you go through any like weird phases growing up?
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You know, it's funny. I, I, I have to say I was, I didn't go through crazy phases. I mean,
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I once had like a goatee for a little while that is not doing anybody any favors. And, um,
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I had like long sideburns from an early age that I don't really mind that I did that, but I think I,
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I kind of just, I didn't even really know what I was doing. I just sort of had them all of a sudden.
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And, and, uh, and sometimes you look at, I think when you look back at something like that, it's,
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it's the earnestness that you, you have in your approach that is a little shocking. It's like you,
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you seem to take, well, at least when I look back at myself, I took those things so seriously,
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you know, and I believed in them so completely. I didn't, I had no, I don't think you have the
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kind of self-awareness that you have as you get older. I mean, you think whatever band you're into
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is the greatest band ever and whatever you're wearing is, you know, really important to you.
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And, and you even kind of believe in the ad campaign and all the things that go around it.
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And you don't have a, the kind of reflection you have when you're older and you can kind of pick
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and choose a little bit more deliberately. And so when I look at myself, then I, I see somebody who,
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who was, you know, I was very much into art and writing and literature, but really like,
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like the idea of being an art student, you know, and kind of, and, and my version of what that looked
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like was maybe influenced by the movie, some kind of wonderful, which was kind of a really good movie
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in the eighties with Eric Stoltz as an art student, not surprisingly. And, and now it didn't quite have
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the, I didn't, you're just not fully formed as yourself yet. And I think that's why it kind of
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looks like the clothes are wearing you. You're not wearing the clothes.
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Let's talk about style in general. So a common theme throughout the book was this idea of
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authenticity and authenticity is, you know, it seems like it's an existential goal for a modern,
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like everything has to be authentic, but you know, style is a lot about, you know, a performance
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or an, of an image you want to put out to the world. So, you know, it can not be authentic,
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right? Cause you're trying to convey something that maybe not, is not true to you, but you want
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others to think of you. So I mean, is it, is it possible to be both stylish and authentic? And if
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so, any notable stylish men who have combined the two? That's a great question. I think there's
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always going to be some friction because how you dress is definitely a presentation. Uh, I don't know
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if that makes it unnatural, but it's definitely, you're, you're presenting something to the world.
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And, and I like that. I, I, when I see somebody who's very well-dressed, I feel reassurance from
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him. I think he's doing something that he's, he's, he's showing the world that he kind of wants the
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world to be a little bit more formal or a little bit of a better place. And you know, you can get
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carried away with that, but I like to see a man who's dressed well on an airplane. I feel like he's
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trying to, to lighten the mood a little bit. And at the same time, I think a well-dressed man does it
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for himself as well. So you have this balance, something for the public and for the people you
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see and even respect and to formality and, and a certain amount of like good manners. And then
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also the pleasure someone gets out of clothing that they care about. And that involves a certain
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type of secret pleasure that I think most well-dressed men have. I mean, when I see somebody
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like Gay Talese, who's, you know, a legendary figure, doesn't need me to tell him he's well-dressed.
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I can see that he does it partly because of the way he views New York and social life here.
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And also legitimate pleasure he gets from tailored clothing and traditional clothes made well.
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Almost everything he has, there are details that nobody would know about beside him.
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And at the same time, when he walks into a room, he certainly recognize it. So
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that's a good example of somebody who, who has it both ways. And I think most people,
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when they look at him would say, he's got an authentic sense of who he is. And I, and I think
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that's a good thing. But of course, something like that, you can't just try to be authentic.
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I think in many cases, it's what you arrive at over time. And I think that is really what,
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one of the themes of the book and really one of the themes of the things that I care about is how
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you kind of, when you know what is enough, you know, and if you go, and if you think about any
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place you care about or any artwork you love, whoever's made it or whoever's behind it knows when
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enough is enough, whether, and when they want to do something more, and that's a little more
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flamboyant and it feels right, or when they know when to keep something simple and they know that
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that's right. And I think that that is really, um, a goal that we all should have, but of course
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you can't pursue it. It sort of has to come to you.
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We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.
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Yeah. Because once you do that hard pursuit, the clothes start wearing you instead of you
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Right. You can always tell the guys that's, you can tell he's uncomfortable.
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Exactly. I mean, the sense of comfort is huge, you know, and I think that one, one thing that
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makes me a little bit sad is that for a variety of reasons, men in, in America have a kind of
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resistance toward suits and sport coats and formality, partly because they had a bad experiences
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when they were young. And, and then they all, they sort of associate it with conformity or
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businesses or, or wearing them against their will. And that's really too bad because suits can be very
00:21:24.740
comfortable and they can be very expressive and very personal. And most men look really good in
00:21:29.420
them if they're good. You know, if you go into get a bad one, of course, it's not going to be a nice
00:21:34.280
experience, but there's no reason that a man shouldn't have a good suit and look, look terrific
00:21:39.580
Yeah. And I love that point you made earlier about, uh, dressing up to sort of brings a little
00:21:44.380
bit of format, like dressing up for others because you want to make others feel good.
00:21:48.400
Cause I've noticed that too, like when people like dress for the occasion, like it makes the occasion
00:21:53.100
feel, I don't know, has more heft to it, I guess more.
00:21:57.920
And, uh, so I feel like something that's something we've lost with our very casual culture here in the
00:22:02.080
States. That's a really good point. And it's a funny thing because people respond when you dress
00:22:07.580
up. I mean, if you, if you show up and see your girlfriend and you're dressed well, she's, she's
00:22:12.800
going to like it. I mean, there's not very few men I know whose wives or girlfriends don't like it
00:22:17.220
when they dress up, but beside the people who are close to you in your life, I mean, just in general,
00:22:21.480
if you're, if you're in a restaurant and you see somebody who's ready to be there, it's really nice.
00:22:27.020
And I think, um, I always like to go to see what people are wearing at the opera in New
00:22:32.240
York. It's a very international crowd and to see what people's versions of the best thing
00:22:37.180
in their wardrobe is usually pretty funny, but it's also sweet and reassuring and nice
00:22:42.100
to see people like even men, there's a group of people who get together and they just all
00:22:45.760
wear tuxedos and it's like, it's fantastic. And, uh, and I think we, um, somehow we've gotten
00:22:53.080
to a place where we view, uh, dressing down as some sort of more to use. I mean, authentic
00:22:59.440
is a word to use before, but it's like, there's no artifice in it. And you know, that works
00:23:03.420
if you've, if you own Facebook dress, however you want, if you don't, you do not look good
00:23:08.740
in a hooded sweatshirt. And so don't wear one to a meeting or even out of the house.
00:23:18.680
I do. I mean, I have a dress up. I mean, I don't wear a sport coat in the house, but
00:23:23.960
I, I like to, I just feel more pulled together. If I have, you know, uh, I have a shirt, a
00:23:32.880
college shirt and a big sweater that I like to write in. And I mean, it's definitely what
00:23:36.940
I wear inside. I guess it would be kind of in the Mr. Rogers vibe, but, uh, I, I absolutely
00:23:42.660
like to feel, um, pulled together. I just feel more alert that way. Um, or even if
00:23:50.220
I, yeah, I think that's a good, good way to say it.
00:23:53.160
Yeah. Here's another thing I've, I've noticed too. Um, as we, since we've published, you
00:23:57.780
know, style content on our site and I find a lot of the style content that we put on
00:24:02.600
the site, it's geared more towards like 30 year old, 40 year old guys, but there's
00:24:08.100
like, there's like, I feel like there's this, but I always get pushback from even guys who
00:24:11.520
are in their late twenties, thirties, forties that we, the idea of style we're promoting
00:24:16.300
is too old. Like it makes, it makes everyone looks like dads. Um, like that's a bad, like
00:24:21.740
it's like, it's a bad thing, um, to look older and mature. Have you seen that as well?
00:24:27.500
I mean, that's an interesting point. I think the problem, the issue is when you see these
00:24:32.900
clothes, first of all, I love the way old men dress. I have no problem with that. My, my
00:24:36.940
dream style is like an old Italian uncle. I, and I, when I go to Italy or when I look
00:24:42.980
at style sites, I like to see what older Italian men wear because they have this sense of formality
00:24:49.340
and a sense of self-expression and, you know, Italian tailors are fantastic. So they really
00:24:54.320
look terrific. I think the, when people, when you talk about complaints that people have
00:24:59.220
a pushback, they're, they're not seeing how it becomes, how the clothes change when they
00:25:06.000
wear them. I think that there's a real, um, issue with editorial and magazines and online
00:25:12.860
about, it's like dress like Don Draper. Now that's a terrible idea. Like Don Draper looks
00:25:18.640
great. The show is taking place in the sixties. Jon Hamm is, you know, superhuman and the clothes
00:25:24.900
are made to flatter him and the era that he's in. If you need to know what makes sense for
00:25:30.740
you, how are you built? What's your coloration? You know, how big is your head? What, what
00:25:35.540
color is your beard? And then you say, okay, well, having a narrow lapel, super small collar,
00:25:40.660
really tight tie makes your head look big. And, and it looks silly. Like you just wanted to
00:25:44.980
dress like someone you saw in Mad Men. And, and I think people have to start with who, who
00:25:51.300
they are and what they need and, and then work from there. And, and that's something that I think,
00:25:59.580
um, partly because of the way clothes are sold, we have brands that have very strong
00:26:05.660
sensibilities so they can kind of communicate to people what they believe in. And I'm not sure
00:26:11.120
that's a really good thing. If you went back 50 years or a little bit more, you know, Brooks
00:26:16.840
Brothers or, you know, even a proper tailor is really trying to find what makes sense for you.
00:26:22.500
And, uh, I think when people start with that, they're not going to look old in a suit. They're
00:26:27.160
not going to even look old in a cardigan. If they, if they bring some energy to it and everything and
00:26:31.520
things fit correctly and the colors, right, they'll look really alive and they'll be surprised at how
00:26:35.980
good they look. And they have to give themselves a chance too. I mean, I think when people wear
00:26:39.780
something the first time I have complete belief and totally that wear it around your house by
00:26:46.140
yourself. Like if you wear something, people shouldn't know it's new. It should look like
00:26:50.640
you've had it for a long time and you shouldn't look like you're trying to decide if you like it
00:26:54.120
or not. You know, if I get something crazy, I'll keep it in my closet for a year. And then when I'm
00:26:58.720
ready, I'll wear it out. Or I'll even just wear it around the house to kind of break it in.
00:27:02.760
Fred Astaire threw his suits against the wall to take the newness out of them. And I think
00:27:07.720
once something looks like it's yours, it'll be, it'll look good.
00:27:12.160
Okay. Um, you also interviewed, um, some women, uh, take on the way that what they like to see
00:27:18.620
on men, any insights there for guys or were the tastes so varied that there isn't really good
00:27:23.100
advice there? Well, the basic insight is one we all know, which is that women are smarter than men.
00:27:28.440
And that it was amazing to talk to the women I talked to were writers and, and kind of creative
00:27:34.800
types and incredibly smart. And I think what they, it was interesting to talk to them because
00:27:40.820
it was about their relationships with men and the clothes that men have. And so I think they,
00:27:47.920
they, they like people dressed up and they like men also to be masculine and manly. And, um, and I think
00:27:56.920
that at least the people I talked to, and I would say the women I know in general find it not a feminine,
00:28:04.560
in any way, but very masculine, if a man is comfortable dressing up or even comfortable
00:28:10.260
wearing pink or that, that there's, um, that, that that's something that they find attractive.
00:28:16.920
And, and I, and I think that's true. So that, that, I don't know if that was a surprise. It was
00:28:21.840
nice to kind of have it confirmed. And I think that men, men don't like it when they feel like
00:28:30.200
they're being dictated to. And I, that was a reminder there as well. You know, if, if someone,
00:28:35.180
they don't want something to be forced down them, whether it's by a store or their girlfriend or
00:28:39.160
whomever else. And so sometimes you kind of have to let the man feel like he made the discovery
00:28:44.240
himself, you know, that he came to it himself and then he'll think it's okay. But if, if somebody's
00:28:49.580
stressing on, Oh, you've got to wear more color. Oh, you should really wear this. He's, he's going to
00:28:54.180
resist because some things men just don't grow out of. And that, that type of resistance is one of
00:28:59.020
them, I think. Yeah. So like we said earlier, there isn't a lot of prescriptive advice on style
00:29:05.780
in the book, which is, which I, which one thing as I loved, it was refreshing to see that in a
00:29:09.560
style book, but I'm, I'm curious. Do you think there are items that every guy should have in his
00:29:14.380
wardrobe? Oh, absolutely. I mean, I've been asked this since the book came out, people kind of want
00:29:20.700
to know, well, what do I think? Where do you start? And my, and it's hard of course, but my basic rule is
00:29:25.520
if Fred Astaire wore it in a film, it's probably a good idea. And if you go back and look at Fred
00:29:31.060
Astaire's style, he wore classics, you know, gray flannel suit, blue blazer, you know, Oxford shirts,
00:29:38.820
white bucks. He looked terrific. I think, I, I think even if you don't wear a suit a lot, you should
00:29:45.380
have a good suit because when you wear it, it's almost always going to be an important situation
00:29:50.100
and you should be comfortable in it. Uh, and so, but people don't look at it that way. They say,
00:29:56.540
oh, I only wear this once a year. So I'm, it's not a priority for me, but I would look at it the
00:30:00.680
exact opposite way. And so I think a good gray suit or a good blue suit that you're comfortable in at a
00:30:07.200
place that seems to understand you is a good thing to have. And an unstructured sport coat, I think is a
00:30:13.800
really good thing to have too. A lot of companies are making them now and it, it's something you can wear
00:30:18.400
with jeans, you can wear it with trousers. And I think it, it looks really good. I mean, I would,
00:30:23.160
I think men should get kind of one of the classic things like a good English brogue. You know, you
00:30:28.640
don't, if you have the staples in your wardrobe, you'll, you'll wear them more than you think. I
00:30:33.620
don't think you need a lot of clothes. I would get usually the best version of something you can
00:30:38.340
afford and then try to, try to wear it a lot. And it will, I think you'll be happy you have it.
00:30:43.140
I mean, I can, if you really want to get specific, I also think not knit ties look really good on men.
00:30:47.800
And you know, you can, you don't have to think about pattern, but the texture is really nice.
00:30:52.740
You've got some color in there. I don't think men take advantage enough of, of texture and color.
00:30:57.820
I think they get kind of overwhelmed with concerns of pattern. And I don't need, I think that can be
00:31:03.740
distracting. I mean, I wear a very simple pattern clothes myself for the most part, but I, I take a lot
00:31:10.680
of advantage of, of texture and color. So going back to Fred Astaire, that guy wore a cravat sometimes.
00:31:16.940
Okay. No, the cravat, cravat, cravat is not for, if you can dance like Fred Astaire, you can wear a
00:31:22.580
cravat. That is a little bit dandy-ish and people who are going to wear it probably even have one
00:31:28.720
and know they're going to wear it. So that you got to draw a line somewhere. I mean, I think
00:31:32.440
in general, sorry to cut you off, is that, is that people, um, you want to stay within a comfort
00:31:40.520
zone and, uh, and that, that you can push it slightly. You know, like I, you know, I have a
00:31:48.700
velvet coat. I never thought I would have one and now I'm used to it and I love it. But the cravat
00:31:53.540
is definitely, um, a step that most men are going to find uncomfortable.
00:31:57.420
Do you know any like modern guys who can pull off the cravat?
00:32:00.780
You know, I, I think I do, but they're, they're really in a, a rarefied group of people. And,
00:32:07.100
and that I think the thing that I like about really successful dandies is that they, they
00:32:15.240
make what they're doing seem natural, even when it's very rarefied. And I've, I know some
00:32:22.660
people who've worn some very, very extreme clothing and when they do it, it, it seems
00:32:29.960
completely natural. I mean, even, even Nick Wooster, one of the keys to his success and
00:32:36.380
something I really admire about him is he makes most of what he wears seem like completely
00:32:42.460
understandable and, and how you see the world the way he sees it. And, and when you have
00:32:49.280
that confidence, um, that's a really good thing. And I also think people will go a lot
00:32:54.420
further with you than you think. You know, if you, if you wear a hat, that's a little
00:32:59.460
daring. The first time your friends give you a hard time. The second time they're kind
00:33:03.560
of used to it. The third time they think it's your signature style and you're described as,
00:33:08.080
oh, you know, the guy with the cool hat, you know, and I think when you, you want to wear
00:33:11.540
something enough to make it yours and once it becomes yours, that's a very strong place
00:33:15.680
to be. So besides clothing, um, where else can men express their sense of style?
00:33:23.660
Oh, that's, that's a great question. I mean, it's funny though, if you, if you see a man
00:33:28.240
that you think is well-dressed, you kind of think he's going to be good at some other
00:33:32.100
things too. You know, I, I mean, the men I, a lot of men I like are, you know, they, they're
00:33:37.900
good cooks, not in a necessarily a flamboyant way, but they're capable in the kitchen. You
00:33:43.740
know, they're well-read. Uh, they like to travel and travel a certain way. You know,
00:33:48.260
you'd take their advice about places to visit. You know, I think these are the things that
00:33:52.120
just happen as you get older. And if you're curious or like to interact with the world
00:33:55.940
in a certain way, it's no surprise that you know about those things. I mean, I think something
00:34:00.620
about the book is the book is not trying to get men to dress like me. I don't want men to,
00:34:05.560
I'm happy to be look different than other people. I think it's meant to dress like who they
00:34:10.320
are and maybe a slightly better version of who they are. I think you want to ask a little bit
00:34:15.680
more of yourself and, and especially as you get older and hopefully have more success and are more
00:34:21.920
kind of secure in where you are in the world. And so I think once you have that, that then a certain
00:34:29.120
amount of, you know, sense of who you are, that, that will go into other, other places too,
00:34:35.320
how your home is decorated, how you, you know, the way you travel, who, how you entertain when
00:34:41.240
you have people over. I think all of those are an expression of who you are and the things you
00:34:45.640
care about. And I respond to all of those things when they're done well by other people.
00:34:50.800
Yeah. One of my favorite sections in the book was talking about like things that guys collected
00:34:56.140
or they, what they collect. There was like this just really just, sometimes it was just really
00:35:01.560
weird. Some of the stuff they collect, but like, but it like, it made sense when, you know, cause
00:35:05.520
you, you read, you know, what their other insights were about style, but like that weird thing they
00:35:09.140
collected is like, Oh yeah, that makes sense that he would do that.
00:35:11.980
Well, that it's funny you say that. I mean, there's also a part in the book too, about what
00:35:15.780
are things you've inherited from your father and some, or grandfather. And in some cases,
00:35:20.680
it's quite obvious why something was passed down. It's a very nice watch or it was dog tags
00:35:25.840
from somebody who was in the war. And other times it, it isn't obvious why that thing was
00:35:32.260
passed down, but you could tell that it's important to the person because there's a history behind
00:35:37.120
it. Uh, whether it's just a Western shirt or a Stetson hat. And, and I like these things
00:35:43.480
that have meaning that people give to them over time and whether it's a collection or something
00:35:50.020
that's been inherited. And I think that's, that's appealing to me. I'm not as interested
00:35:56.060
in things that have, that someone, a marketer is trying to tell you they have meaning because
00:36:01.340
there's a logo on it or it's really expensive or a capsule collection or a collaboration or
00:36:06.200
hard to get, or there's a line out the store. I mean, those things will come and go, but the
00:36:11.500
things that your father gave you or that you've collected because you have an affinity towards
00:36:16.660
whatever the thing is, you know, that's, that's more meaningful. And I think we should look for
00:36:21.960
the meaning we give to things, not the meaning that magazines or, or marketers give things. And
00:36:28.400
so I, that's hopefully a lesson people will take from the book. Well, David, this has been a great
00:36:33.340
conversation. Um, where can people learn more about your work in the book? You know, I actually
00:36:37.360
got a website for this book. I, it was funny when, when you get to a point where you, it seems like
00:36:44.440
everything has come and gone and we learn in different ways. And at one point, everybody had
00:36:48.240
a website that nobody did. If you go to davidrcoggins.com, you can read part of the book.
00:36:54.840
Um, you know, I'm, I'm on Instagram. I love Instagram. Um, that's also David R. Coggins. And,
00:37:02.000
uh, and if you Google me, I don't know, I've got articles everywhere, probably too much
00:37:05.660
for people to read about. One thing though, that's coming out that people might be interested in is in the
00:37:10.080
March issue of Condé Nast Traveler. I went on a road trip in, through the Scottish Highlands,
00:37:15.820
uh, on our way with my friend, Matt and my friend, Jake to the, um, Harris where Harris Tweed is made.
00:37:23.000
And that was a really, really cool trip and a really fun thing to do. And talking about traditional
00:37:27.960
ways of doing things, Harris Tweed, which has been made in very specific ways for
00:37:34.220
hundreds of years, it was very cool to see the sheds where it's made, where the, where the
00:37:39.720
tweet is made. And so that was a fun, a fun trip and a, and a cool thing that I think
00:37:43.900
some of your listeners might be into. And that will be on newsstands in two weeks and online
00:37:51.220
around that time too. Cool. Well, David Coggins, thank you so much for your time. It's been a
00:37:55.380
pleasure. Thank you. My pleasure. My guest today was David Coggins. He's the author of the book
00:37:59.000
Men in Style, Essays, Interviews, and Considerations. It's available on amazon.com and bookstores
00:38:03.700
everywhere. You can find out more information about his work at davidrcoggins.com and make sure to check out
00:38:09.220
our show notes at aom.is slash men in style, where you can find links to resources where
00:38:13.740
you can delve deeper into this topic. Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of
00:38:22.660
Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website
00:38:26.720
at artofmanliness.com. And if you enjoy the show and have gotten something out of it, I'd appreciate
00:38:30.780
if you give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher. That helps that a lot. As always, thank you for your
00:38:35.320
community support. And until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.