The Art of Manliness - #288： Love is Overrated

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast do you find

00:00:19.300 yourself making the same mistakes in your relationships for example you have a tendency

00:00:23.180 to ignore red flags and constantly end up in relationships that aren't healthy for you

00:00:26.820 or maybe you end up in a relationship where the initial chemistry is good but a few months later

00:00:30.840 you're looking for any way out well if any of those descriptions describe you or a friend who

00:00:35.320 needs some advice then give this podcast a listen my guests today argue that your problem is that

00:00:39.880 you let yourself get suckered by love their names are michael and sarah bennett michael is a psychiatrist

00:00:45.080 sarah is michael's daughter and a comedy writer i had them on the show previously to talk about their

00:00:49.740 book f feelings in their latest book f love they focus on the most messed up feeling of all love

00:00:55.080 and despite the irreverent title of the book the bennett's provide surprisingly solid and

00:00:59.600 old-fashioned advice when it comes to establishing long-lasting and fulfilling relationships they

00:01:03.980 discuss why our emotions can lead us astray in relationships and why men are actually more prone

00:01:07.780 to being bamboozled by romantic feelings than women they then share both the red flags and the 0.99

00:01:12.640 positive qualities you should be on the lookout for in a partner if you want a happy relationship

00:01:16.100 they also discuss what you should do in a relationship in which you're not happy

00:01:20.020 and why couples therapy is often not very useful this podcast is full of laughs as well as some

00:01:25.400 seriously helpful insights on how to navigate relationships effectively don't worry despite

00:01:29.580 the title of the show the show is family friendly safe for work so you don't have to worry about

00:01:33.580 anything like that there's no bad salty language in it after the show's over check out the show notes

00:01:37.520 at aom.is slash f love all right dr michael bennett sarah bennett welcome back to the show we're glad

00:01:57.200 to be here yes hello thank you so last time we had you on we had you on a year ago to talk about your

00:02:02.360 book f feelings and we got a great response with it the whole idea of it you're you're a shrink

00:02:08.260 michael and the idea is based on your experience and your practice is just letting people know that

00:02:13.420 feelings are overrated and you you can't put too much credence into them and how to manage those

00:02:19.180 feelings we have but you got a new book out about one of the most troublesome feelings that has plagued

00:02:25.200 humanity since adam and eve basically f love and it's uh subtitles one shrink sensible advice for

00:02:32.200 finding a lasting relationship and the whole thrust of the book is basically love love is overrated

00:02:38.800 why why is that why is love overrated and how does it lead us astray in life um sweetie you want to

00:02:45.320 you want to take that one well sure also this is maybe a good time to mention since there's been

00:02:50.540 some confusion with people that don't know us we are not married he is my father he called you sweetie

00:02:57.180 i know but it's better than him calling me bunny or any number of names i've had since childhood so

00:03:02.760 i'll take it so why is love overrated well we're talking here this book is for people that are trying

00:03:08.640 to figure out how to have a long lasting relationship or whether they want one in the first place

00:03:14.300 um and when you're really looking for someone that you want to be with for the rest of your life

00:03:19.140 the romance element isn't really that important in the long run i mean i'm not a married person i'm sort of

00:03:25.960 a happily not married person but my parents have been married for 40 years my sister's been married

00:03:30.160 for i don't know 10 years with four kids um and what we always say is that the bulk of married life

00:03:36.840 isn't about flowers and chocolates it's about you know wiping children's butts or just paying bills or

00:03:43.820 doing stuff that isn't romantic at all uh so when you really follow your feelings and follow your heart

00:03:50.800 or your gut uh you know another thing we always say follow your brain not your gut your gut's 0.88

00:03:55.780 literally full of shit um so that's why it's important to not get tied up in romance and good 0.99

00:04:01.060 feeling when your goal is to be with someone through a lot of boring or bad feelings or a lot of conflict 0.99

00:04:08.120 because that's really what a lot of marriage is to know that you have a strong enough partnership

00:04:12.460 that you can get through that stuff and still like each other even if you're not still

00:04:17.620 totally hot for each other all the time and this isn't to say that romance you can't you shouldn't

00:04:23.300 discount romance completely it's a part but it's only a part of a relationship exactly you can't

00:04:28.760 force yourself to be with someone that you don't feel some spark with or have you know some romantic

00:04:33.280 attraction to but when you're looking for that partner you want to be with long term the romance

00:04:39.620 part isn't the most important there it has to be there to some degree or else you know you're going to

00:04:44.820 end up presenting the crap out of whoever you're with and being really annoyed with yourself you 0.72

00:04:49.140 sort of force yourself to be with someone but there's so much stuff that's more important than

00:04:53.780 romance in the long term and if you want to be with someone for the long term you can't let romance

00:04:59.000 blind you to uh those elements and whether they're there or not you see i i see a lot of people in my

00:05:05.940 practice who are um uh suffering because their relationships are falling apart they're on the edge of

00:05:13.560 divorce or uh and it's not that um the romance uh has dried up it has more to do with uh the pressures

00:05:23.300 that come from survival or raising kids or going through economic hard times if one of them it doesn't

00:05:30.820 work as hard as the other or isn't reliable or doesn't hang around um um isn't a steady kind of person

00:05:39.460 it creates uh so much pain and disappointment and there's nothing anybody can do about it once you

00:05:46.920 get to that point so this is a sort of a plea for people to be their own matchmaker even if they're

00:05:53.700 carried away by lots of love and attraction uh they have to have some to you know to make somebody eligible

00:06:00.280 but to go through a sort of logical sensible routine way of vetting and screaming people

00:06:08.280 so that they don't wind up with a heartbreak i see five or ten years later yeah we'll talk about how

00:06:14.640 you screen that but i think it's interesting about your approach it is in a lot of ways old-fashioned

00:06:19.940 because i think in the past few this particularly in the 20th century this idea that a relationship

00:06:25.360 should be all about love you know and you have to have that spark and you have that chemistry and if

00:06:30.240 you don't have that chemistry anymore then you just end the relationship and it seemed like before the

00:06:35.400 20th century love was relationships or marriage was more practical like you married someone because

00:06:40.940 they were going to help you further your goals you're going to help them further their goals

00:06:45.300 you could establish you know you created a family you could help each other economically and so it was

00:06:51.080 all it was it was very geared towards that and it seems like you're in a way reviving that

00:06:55.000 a little bit very much so um and in previous times uh families knew one another more there was less

00:07:04.480 mobility you have more and more single people in the city where there's nobody to do any screaming

00:07:10.960 for them where families don't know one another where you don't know uh if you see somebody on uh

00:07:18.320 tinder or match.com you don't know what their backgrounds are or whether they are who they say they are

00:07:23.880 so you have to do it all yourself all right so let's talk about uh this screening process so

00:07:29.260 instead of searching for a soulmate which a lot of people it's the goal for relationships someone

00:07:34.560 that fulfills them completes them as jerry mcguire said you suggest seeing yourself as a romance

00:07:40.840 recruiter so what what does this involve well the the major things i think you you look for i think

00:07:48.020 recruiter is a really good word to use because a lot of the common sense elements are the same

00:07:52.840 ones that people use when they're recruiting somebody for a job i think you begin by asking

00:07:59.360 yourself what you want the person for what they're supposed to do to make your life better

00:08:04.220 i say you know do you want them to start so you can start a family do you desperately need some more

00:08:10.820 financial resources in order to do what you want to do do you need somebody who's calm because you get very

00:08:17.200 very anxious um the things that you think you need um you want to list them it's a good way to begin

00:08:25.920 and put that into a job description and then you try to think of the aspects of of character and

00:08:33.600 accomplishment that need to be there which is exactly of course what you do when you recruit somebody for

00:08:39.040 any job the experience they have to have the the strength of character reliability honesty

00:08:46.780 their ability with money and once you get into that mindset i think you have a grounding that helps

00:08:54.960 you when you do fall in love and care a lot about somebody that you can keep on coming back to

00:09:01.460 so that you hold off a little bit on the intimacy and the trust until you're really sure they they check

00:09:11.140 out yeah because a lot of the patients my father sees that have romance or relationship related

00:09:17.080 issues i mean he said you know already said a huge segment of them are people getting divorced but

00:09:21.500 the other chunk of them are people usually women that are getting burned out on online dating um 1.00

00:09:28.100 and that's why having a sort of list for yourself whether it's you've literally written it down or you've

00:09:34.440 just given it good consideration i mentioned that because the idea of doing homework for me

00:09:40.020 personally seems entirely irritating and daunting and that's what writing a list seems like but really

00:09:46.200 thinking about it so that when you do look at profiles and subsequently decide on dating someone

00:09:52.720 you don't waste time uh trying to figure out you know well i know this guy seems like he might not be

00:10:00.780 right in these ways but he seems really nice maybe i should give him a chance no hold firm to your

00:10:06.260 standards so you don't end up spending a lot of time with a guy because you feel obliged to you don't

00:10:11.440 want to be mean you're not being mean uh to him and you're being mean to yourself because you're going to

00:10:16.400 end up burned out and going to see a shrink and you know an office building in middle of nowhere in

00:10:21.700 brookline massachusetts uh so keep that list in mind to keep yourself from not wanting to date period

00:10:29.060 it's what's going to keep you from really burning out entirely so i mean what are some of the the

00:10:35.060 things you should be looking it's like just like big picture things you should be looking for in a

00:10:38.820 person to figure out like this would be good this person would be good for a a long-term fulfilling

00:10:44.400 relationship well they'd be very very much if you were going into business partnership you'd look for

00:10:50.760 these these same things you'd look for reliability a good track record with relationships a good track

00:10:57.820 record of being honest and responsible if they aren't good at money that they let you manage

00:11:04.320 their money you look at what they've spent their money on as an expression of what their values are

00:11:10.020 what they care most about how hard working are they how decent are they those are the kind of

00:11:15.940 things that are really going to matter in the long run and as you you've said in the book i mean

00:11:19.640 these things are important because they're character attributes and character attributes typically

00:11:25.000 are static i mean the temperament we have now is probably the temperament we're going to have when

00:11:30.840 we're 40 or 50 i think there's a lot of idea that people think well if i just if i marry her like she'll 1.00

00:11:36.520 change i can help change her but that typically doesn't happen right you put your put your finger

00:11:41.740 on it most people come to shrink because they really want something to change and it's clear by that

00:11:49.720 time that what they're upset about was there at the beginning and it's not one of those things that's

00:11:54.920 going to change we also talk about how you can tell whether somebody's going to change i mean it's a

00:12:01.280 it's not a matter uh that shrinks have any great insight into it's common sense uh first of all does

00:12:09.380 does somebody really want to change not just to make you happy but because they don't like that quality

00:12:14.540 in themselves and then second of all when they really try do they get anywhere if they want to

00:12:20.600 try you know if if you want them to change but they don't see it they're not motivated other than

00:12:26.780 to make you happy you know what's not going to happen and that's you know that's when people come to

00:12:32.420 see a shrink and say you talk to him and you try to make him understand that he needs to change

00:12:38.200 except if they haven't been able to make somebody see i can't do it it's you know it's game over and

00:12:46.400 you just have to accept that they are who they are yeah it's not even a matter necessarily of change

00:12:51.740 as much as management you know if you know you have a terrible temper and you try and learn uh you know

00:13:00.640 exercises and anger management uh then at least you you recognize the issue and you you're doing all that

00:13:07.100 you can't about it but if you meet someone and figure out you they have a bad temper and they

00:13:13.100 don't even want to talk about it then that's not going anywhere that person doesn't even think they

00:13:17.940 have a problem that needs management in the first place and that should be a major sign that this is

00:13:23.760 probably not going to work out well this is some major signs like red flags right people always talk

00:13:29.000 about relationship red flags that you should be on the lookout for are there any red flags that people

00:13:34.320 should look out for that are in the words of liz lemon from 30 rock deal breakers well i always try

00:13:40.500 and point out what should be obvious ones uh but aren't because they are really attractive qualities

00:13:46.900 um you know in terms of people that uh you meet them and they they're very intense and they don't have a

00:13:54.160 lot of boundaries because that can be very exciting but that's usually the especially if it's women 1.00

00:14:00.240 those are the kind of women that guys later say you know all women are crazy and it's like no you you 1.00

00:14:05.200 just dated someone who was literally crazy someone's telling you uh their life story and how much they 0.83

00:14:10.860 want to make a baby with you within an hour of meeting you that should have been obvious that that's not a

00:14:15.840 stable human being but it's a very attractive thing or guys that are sort of you know uh the the sexiness

00:14:22.660 of not seeming to care about a lot or you know the all the cliches that go into the bad boy

00:14:28.920 um these are very clear signs as appealing as they might be that some guy doesn't you know

00:14:35.760 seems to live in a leather jacket or god forbid couch surf eternally or use a lot of drugs these are

00:14:42.780 all things that you think oh well that's obviously terrible but some part of our lizard brain is like

00:14:48.360 oh that guy seems nice no no not good not good red flag don't get suckered in and it's easier as you

00:14:55.200 get older certainly because you just sort of you've been there and you've done that or you know

00:14:59.540 you've seen it happen to your friends or you're just you know a jaded old fart but um it's certainly

00:15:04.940 important to to remind the youth or remind yourself that is and you know lots of women fall into the 1.00

00:15:11.500 trap of falling for the same kind of loser over and over again you know certainly like the guys i 0.74

00:15:15.860 mentioned that say all women are crazy at a certain point you need to recognize you have a weakness 1.00

00:15:20.100 for these really bad attributes that are really appealing unfortunately and that you cannot let

00:15:26.980 yourself fall into that trap again but the most obvious the things that you think would be the most

00:15:31.920 obvious red flags for you know just because they create that attraction all the time they they aren't

00:15:37.960 they end up being green or checkered flags and uh drawing people into these bad relationships they

00:15:44.880 should have known to avoid in the first place but it's hard though um they've done studies on this

00:15:48.880 and we've written about is that like love literally blinds us like we have all these chemicals when

00:15:54.080 we're in that romantic feel-good phase of a relationship at the beginning like it literally

00:15:59.220 like we just become dumb like we ignore these these things and what i think is interesting too is that

00:16:04.760 men have a tendency to fall in love faster than women like they they just they really hit it hard and so 0.99

00:16:10.660 you tend to overlook these things so how do you battle that how do you battle those

00:16:14.800 the the dopamine the oxytocin whatever that oxytocin stuff that floods your brain that makes you blind

00:16:21.940 to these red flags or these attributes how do you overcome that uh well our our advice was simply to

00:16:28.080 borrow um well-established techniques in business and say uh develop your techniques while while you're

00:16:36.380 feeling particularly sane and grounded drawing on your past experience before the endorphins hit you

00:16:43.060 before you go blind with sex or lust or love or neediness or whatever and and stick with it

00:16:52.120 and then use your experiences to where your weaknesses are sarah often talks about recruiting a friend

00:16:59.520 and asking your friend to hit you over the head if they think you're making the same mistake

00:17:05.860 so it's not personal you're not saying to your friend do you like him do you like the way we are

00:17:12.000 together do we look good together are we good for one another you're saying to your friend if if you

00:17:18.220 think i haven't done my due diligence and if you think uh this person is showing some bad signs don't

00:17:24.900 hesitate to speak up and and tell me to review the facts harder and look you know um improve my technique

00:17:32.960 yeah in terms of you know we say to make a list of qualities you want but if you have a habit of

00:17:38.820 dating losers over and over again um it's worth sitting down making a list of the qualities those

00:17:44.340 losers had in common you know they they didn't have a fixed address they had final notice bills uh 0.98

00:17:51.120 lying around whatever home they were crashing at uh they seem to be using a lot of drugs and not being

00:17:58.600 very open about it you know and then giving that list to your friends and saying if i bring a guy

00:18:04.300 around or meet if you're with me in a bar and a guy has any of these qualities feel free to tap me

00:18:10.920 on the shoulder uh and say hey this guy's got three five and just a heads up uh you wanted me to tell you

00:18:17.600 and i'm telling you so it's not uh it doesn't feel like a personal attack on the new love of your life

00:18:22.940 but it's also you know in terms of you have your wing woman or really your your bodyguard that could

00:18:29.660 help you to avoid those feelings but like you said one thing i i found interesting that my dad told me

00:18:35.000 years ago is that if he has patients that are bipolar especially women and they feel mania coming

00:18:41.600 on one of the signs is sometimes that men start finding them irresistible you know like they'll men

00:18:49.020 will stop them on the street and that that to them is aside from any of the other internal or you

00:18:54.300 know mental signs to them that maybe they're becoming a little unbalanced releasing this mystery

00:18:59.920 chemical of nuttiness that is a magnet for guys as always to them a reminder like oh i probably need

00:19:07.960 to check in with my shrink and maybe adjust my meds i think i'm going a little off so yeah there is a

00:19:12.260 very strong natural magnetism uh that even among sane people that can be very hard to ignore

00:19:19.500 but if you have fallen victim to being tricked over and over again into dating the same bad people

00:19:26.420 or are just you know get fall in love too fast like you said it's worth having someone spot you

00:19:35.320 but it's also you know in doing events for this how the audience breaks down to the majority of it being

00:19:41.100 women instead of men you know it's i don't know whether it's biological or whether it's conditioning

00:19:47.240 but certainly since the age of 11 or 12 i've been remember being in summer camp and issues of 17

00:19:55.120 and ym being passed around that had quizzes in them you know that's kind of why we put them in the book

00:19:59.880 that are i say well what kind of guy is right for you what what kind of guy is good meshes with your

00:20:06.240 horoscope you know that nonsense and i don't think guys are asked to think that way i again i don't know

00:20:12.680 if it's women naturally think that way or not but i know that that isn't what's in guy magazines it's 0.97

00:20:18.400 usually gay for boobies or whatever uh or as i keep joking around sometimes i think the checklist 0.77

00:20:25.020 that guys develop is based on country songs in terms of does she wear tight jeans will she ride the 0.98

00:20:30.720 back of my pickup party down by the creek you know guys need to think more about this stuff in general

00:20:36.560 i think so they don't fall in love so fast so they develop a better bs detector that women have 1.00

00:20:42.300 been developing since they were tweens you know i i think it will be more helpful to them it will

00:20:48.300 save their sanity more save them from heartbreak save their credit um because women like i said 1.00

00:20:55.040 we've been trained for years and we're doing the best we can but men need to get some of that training

00:21:00.140 themselves not just for our sake but for their own so let's so the rest of the book you delve into

00:21:04.820 different attributes that we think make for a good relationship or a great partner and we've

00:21:11.160 kind of talking about a little bit but individuals who seem magnetic you're just drawn to them you

00:21:15.740 said there's this personality that just just draws you to them it's this idea of charisma and you guys

00:21:21.020 say yeah charisma is overrated how is it that that charisma can get in the way of a good relationship

00:21:27.040 any examples from your experience michael with patients that where they fell for a charismatic

00:21:32.040 person or they themselves are very charismatic and it caused some heartache in the end well i i think

00:21:38.720 you're right i mean each of these qualities can be very attractive but they each carry their own

00:21:43.420 dangers if you're very charismatic and attract a lot of people you really have more trouble figuring out

00:21:50.800 who really likes you for yourself it's a kind of personality beauty so you have to be better at

00:21:55.960 and sifting through things to see what relationships really are right for you because you know when

00:22:03.380 you're really popular everybody wants to talk to you on the other hand if if you're attracted to

00:22:08.860 somebody charismatic you have to find out whether in spite of the charge and the pleasure you get from

00:22:15.180 talking to them whether they're caught up in it so much like the social world that after a while you get

00:22:22.260 you get lost in uh you know as soon as you stop being a novelty do they really really uh like you and

00:22:31.340 have a good reason to build a life with you or do they like socializing or or politicizing things so

00:22:39.700 much that after a while your your novelty wears off you have to be careful with that and reading a little

00:22:47.460 bit about charismatic people or reading a novel can kind of alert you to the dangers and help you

00:22:53.560 keep your eyes open until you're more confident that the relationship is bigger and deeper than

00:23:00.740 just a matter of mutual attraction when i was reading this i mean as i was reading your book the

00:23:06.600 thing that came to mind is like man you know who would like this book i think jane austen would really

00:23:10.960 dig this book because like i've read her novels and her novels seem to be like

00:23:15.120 yeah love with your heart but also love with your head like it's okay to have some passion but like

00:23:20.180 you also got to be careful for the mr darcy's out there and kind of not not be uh carried away by

00:23:26.400 their by your sort of that visceral reaction you have to people yeah she's my patron uh saint i say

00:23:33.680 you know her villains are guys who are very good at communicating and getting close quickly and

00:23:40.580 suddenly our heroine finds she's able to open up and be very sympathetic with somebody she's

00:23:46.940 she's never known before and only later does she find out that he's uh taken money that he didn't

00:23:55.020 have or that he betrayed somebody uh it happens again and again and especially for women in that age

00:24:02.080 when they didn't have any resources of their own they weren't allowed to inherit these are women 1.00

00:24:07.300 where it's a survival issue if they slip with a guy their their lives are over so in a certain way

00:24:15.720 it's a these are life and death dramas uh they aren't just you know drawing room chatting and then

00:24:22.320 the people that were solid would often be guys who were less communicative less easy to talk to

00:24:28.640 somewhat tongue-tied harder to get to know but then when you got to know them you got information

00:24:36.580 that they were always reliable that they would put themselves out for you that once they cared

00:24:41.660 about you they didn't get distracted very easily so yes i think she really set the boundaries and the

00:24:48.260 themes that that we need to pay attention to today and she also i'm realizing uh is it bingley

00:24:55.880 in pride and prejudice the guy who runs off with her younger sister uh the red flag of guys that talk

00:25:03.240 about people who've wronged them uh people that are women too anyone who talks about ex-friends or you

00:25:11.200 know being betrayed that's usually a huge red flag that this person uh betrays other people a lot that

00:25:18.580 they are you know to use the clinical term and explanation from our first book uh well the censored version

00:25:25.780 an a-hole because a-holes tend to get into fights with people because they feel like that person has 0.98

00:25:32.960 done them wrong because they feel like they're incapable of doing wrong an a-hole is the world's 1.00

00:25:37.540 perfect victim they're the only righteous person on earth so if someone uh very quickly in a boundaryless

00:25:43.620 way starts talking about well this person uh wronged me and you know but really it turns out that you

00:25:50.640 tried to run off with their younger sister as well yeah it's probably prejudice they're all one swirl of

00:25:57.220 you know pbs miniseries in my head but that that is an austin era red flag that exists to this day

00:26:03.860 but she was teaching us all an important lesson there's a character in pride and prejudice elizabeth

00:26:10.600 bennett's uh best friend who is a little old and doesn't have any money and is you know fair you know

00:26:18.760 only fair looking and she really wants to have a family so she accepts a proposal from a rather

00:26:27.420 socially awkward and somewhat repulsive minister who's a reliable guy and you know he'll make a

00:26:36.560 living and uh he won't mess around and he'll be helpful around the house but he certainly isn't a

00:26:43.640 terribly attractive person and elizabeth says to her old friend she said how could you lower yourself

00:26:51.020 to to marry that creep and her friend um very correctly says to her look you've got better

00:26:59.840 prospects this is the best compromise i can make and i do it willingly and proudly she's a sort of

00:27:07.720 minor character but she's really at the moral center of jane austen's universe yeah that's i mean

00:27:14.100 that's some great stuff so yeah if you guys haven't read jane austen i even recommend guys read jane austen

00:27:18.600 because there's a lot you can learn from that 18th century female writer let's talk about some of the 0.85

00:27:23.060 other characteristics that often get overrated in relationships and one of them you talk about is

00:27:28.340 communication which is crazy because all like most of the the books about relationship out there about

00:27:34.120 how to communicate better you know the mars versus venus thing that's why marriage therapists exist so 1.00

00:27:40.420 people couples can learn how to communicate better but you all say that's it's all for not pretty much 0.97

00:27:46.900 why do you think communication is overrated in a relationship well certainly in a lot of cases

00:27:51.900 women are looking for verbal communication but there are you know there are a lot of guys out there 0.99

00:27:58.740 that don't necessarily communicate what they feel verbally but through their actions so you know

00:28:06.720 you might be dating a guy who is kind of silent at the dinner table at night but he does do all the

00:28:12.860 dishes and he then shovels the snow out of the driveway and later make sure that you know the kitchen is

00:28:20.080 cleaned up and the garbage is taken out and to me or what you know my father would recommend after

00:28:25.760 seeing couples or women that come in and complain about this it's what's really more important you

00:28:31.000 know and there it's not like you can't get chat elsewhere we always say you know get a cat or go get a

00:28:37.780 haircut hang out with your girlfriends there are lots of people that will want to talk about those

00:28:42.000 sorts of things but if you're dating someone who shows good character and caring through what they do

00:28:48.420 even and not through the conversation that they have that that's worthwhile that that's worth keeping an eye

00:28:54.980 out just being able to communicate um through conversation isn't really all that important

00:29:01.640 if the communication is coming through in other ways also you know one of my favorite jokes i wish i could

00:29:07.500 take credit for but that is my dad's and i'm i might have even said it before i will probably have it as

00:29:13.220 my epitaph because it's just it's so funny to me um because it's a fart joke which is sort of my

00:29:19.220 raison d'etre but that a lot of people when they go into um marriage counseling that they're going

00:29:25.860 with for a referee um not so much to resolve issues but to declare a winner but they also feel like they

00:29:33.040 need to communicate and vent and what my father said is that the venting of you know marital disputes

00:29:39.440 in therapy is often like the venting of intestinal gas it gives you a moment of catharsis but then poisons

00:29:46.180 the air for you and everyone around you for an indetermined period of time uh you know there

00:29:51.280 are some things that you should not communicate because they will only lead to more conflict or

00:29:56.040 they will create lingering resentment that does not go away so if somebody can communicate positive

00:30:02.640 feelings through positive actions or if you learn to withhold certain communication because you know

00:30:08.540 it's not going to have any positive result and will in fact have a lot of negative result

00:30:12.900 verbal communication or communicating feelings etc is not a good thing um it's important to know what

00:30:19.580 to communicate and when or how to communicate it best but not to just communicate period the sort of

00:30:25.500 value on communication uh in any form is not a positive in a marriage long term that that's why we

00:30:34.480 get into as much as it would be nice if you could solve all your problems by bedtime and feel better

00:30:41.340 when you go to sleep that there are a lot of problems you can't solve by bedtime um there are some

00:30:47.780 differences that are never going to get solved and so sometimes if you want um to do your best by your

00:30:55.160 marriage you have to uh take your anger or your hurt and just do your best and try to and try to get to

00:31:02.260 sleep and the next morning either you're going to decide it's just not something it's worth talking about

00:31:09.420 or you're going to figure out a better way to talk about it than you would have when you were

00:31:13.400 feeling tired and hurt that marital communication is as much as nice as it is to be spontaneous

00:31:21.620 it's such an important partnership it really makes sense to be careful about what you say

00:31:28.080 yeah i mean we put it as the we always thought the expression was don't go to bed angry

00:31:32.820 one um interviewer we spoke to from texas said that there they say don't let the sun set on your

00:31:41.460 anger and we explained that maybe sometimes it's better to have that happen than let it rise on

00:31:47.660 your infinite regret so i want to write our song all right so another thing that people are often told

00:31:56.860 to look for when they're doing this relationship sleuthing to see if someone's right for them is to look at

00:32:02.620 their family life you know look if they have a good relationship with their family if their their

00:32:07.360 parents have a good strong relationship because the idea is well if they grew up in a positive family

00:32:13.360 life and they grew up with parents that put a good example of what a good marriage should look like

00:32:18.760 well then that's going to carry over to my relationship with that person but you guys argue that's not

00:32:24.400 necessarily the case why is that well we're always looking at the potential uh higher risk that goes with

00:32:30.480 that because they're with every benefit in medicine you know with every benefit of any treatment there's

00:32:36.240 also a risk and in this case it often has to do with boundaries that if you've got a really nice

00:32:42.620 family and you're very close to them are you good at um pushing away from them and creating your own

00:32:49.900 family with your own partner and uh knowing when not to get together with or not to listen to or

00:32:57.380 respond to your own family because you're starting your own and your partnership is is more important

00:33:04.500 so that uh sometimes people who are attracted by somebody who is very close to their family

00:33:10.280 find out later on he's too close to his family he can't say no to them he can't shut the door on them

00:33:16.940 he can't keep uh talking and telling them everything and sharing too much and uh creating that boundary is

00:33:24.480 very important so closeness is very attractive and warmth is very attractive but boundaries are

00:33:30.760 really essential when you're when you're starting up a relationship and they're also essential not just

00:33:37.360 if you have a very close family but if you have very crazy parents i just i talked to uh new york

00:33:45.780 magazine's blog about relationships where i mentioned that my my father's mother my grandma was and i said

00:33:53.660 the clinical term was insane now she's been dead for 20 years so her feelings would not be hurt by

00:33:58.680 that but my dad managed to keep her crazy uh from impacting our family negatively uh by creating those 0.61

00:34:07.380 boundaries by telling her when she would show up for a weekend visit uh with enough giant suitcases for 0.64

00:34:14.960 a two-week visit that it was not going to become a two-week visit that he was very happy that she was

00:34:21.120 coming to see us and uh really appreciated her company but you know because of our work in school

00:34:26.600 schedules it was a trip that was going to end on monday morning as discussed and that that is an easy

00:34:32.200 thing to do with your parents and it's generally not easy to have a crazy parent overall um as my father

00:34:38.480 has explained to me through stories of his childhood many times uh but your your spouse and your kids did not

00:34:44.740 sign up for that you know this you created this family and they they have to come first so it's it's

00:34:50.200 not an easy skill to acquire but it's a necessary one a not impossible one if you do come from a nutty 1.00

00:34:56.520 family and you are trying to create a not nutty family but it could go the other way too like the

00:35:02.300 your potential partner might have fantastic parents and you're like wow what a great family i want to be

00:35:09.100 part of this family but like the actual your partner like they're actually crazy like they like

00:35:13.840 the the fruit the apple fell far from the tree yes so that can that that actually can lead you astray

00:35:21.740 yeah it's you know there are plenty of examples of people who married someone because their parents

00:35:26.880 are so loving but they're not a great parent themselves you know uh and you could try and explain

00:35:32.640 that in a shrinky way in terms of the parenting had x and y effect um and i you know i write fart jokes

00:35:40.920 i won't even bother to try the important thing is to just not get blinded to actually look at your

00:35:46.320 your partner's track record not just at their parents track record um you know because that's

00:35:52.320 that's what every chapter is about it's looking at these traits beyond the superficial assumption that

00:35:57.760 they're all good traits that a good family is always good or sense of humor is always good

00:36:02.520 um because yes definitely someone who comes from an excellent family a sane family can be not so

00:36:09.460 excellent or sane themselves uh when therapy was sort of getting going therapists would put a great

00:36:16.340 deal of weight on how you could create trust confidence and reliability in your kids by being good parents

00:36:25.700 and the reverse was that if you saw good parents you'd assume that the kids would be pretty good

00:36:31.460 but i think what you see over time in your own life is that some really good parents sometimes have

00:36:38.240 some very very difficult kids and some very difficult parents have some really good kids and the only

00:36:45.160 explanation is the genetics is kind of a lottery so that you got to be very careful not to make

00:36:53.700 assumptions which is exactly what you're saying so another thing that leads people astray

00:36:58.280 are looks beauty handsomeness etc so i mean i think we all understand like what are the potential

00:37:05.580 downsides of being in a relationship based purely on physical attraction i mean that's like jane austen

00:37:09.980 stuff right there um you end up i think i forgot which book it was like the dot the dad of one of the

00:37:16.940 heroines like married his wife because she was beautiful and charismatic and then 30 years later he despises

00:37:24.840 her um but i mean what are the downsides of being attractive yourself um you know you for whatever

00:37:32.920 reason genetics has blessed you with physical attraction attractiveness what are the potential

00:37:37.660 downsides of that a lot of it is you have to be really tough about sizing people up because so many

00:37:46.960 people want to be with you and uh want to be nice to you you have to know what you want in life so you can

00:37:56.920 pursue it if you're a nice person and you're sensitive you may have trouble being tough enough you may

00:38:05.740 think so much about their feelings and not wanting to cause them pain that you wind up spending too much

00:38:13.680 time and mental effort reacting to all these people who really uh are not going to turn out to be your

00:38:20.800 friends or significant relations and in the meantime you're not making any progress in finding a person

00:38:29.060 who really would be good for you or just going on with your other pursuit so i think the gift of beauty

00:38:35.640 is a curse unless you also have develop a certain technique of your own for centering yourself

00:38:42.600 and and being tough about rejecting relationships that you just don't want yeah and also for

00:38:50.220 certainly for women um if you are you know beautiful or you just have certain physical attributes you know

00:38:59.480 you have the legs or the butt or the boobs that men are attracted to uh you'll get attention but a lot of it 1.00

00:39:06.960 is really creepy it's not the kind of attention that you want you know or you're attracting the 0.97

00:39:12.640 kind of guys that are kind of yucky or you know just seem only interested in you because of and that

00:39:18.540 can also be really frustrating and really burn you out because you know my dad telling me once about a

00:39:24.020 patient who i think did something their job was somehow appearance-based and they were complaining

00:39:30.460 about relationships and of course my reaction was oh boohoo oh too pretty when but no it was this

00:39:36.460 constant barrage of attention from creeps and then dating guys and figuring out pretty quickly oh i'm

00:39:43.020 just an accessory to him you know he doesn't really care about knowing me he's i'm just here to impress

00:39:47.620 his friends like he i've been i was manipulated i mean i can understand now yes that that is legitimate i'm

00:39:54.460 and pretty people have hard lives too it's enough that they saw a tree i mean what do you do if you

00:40:02.080 like you you know you think okay i didn't i got the i didn't i didn't win the genetic lottery

00:40:07.500 not that attractive um and a lot of people they get they lose hope about that like i'm never going

00:40:13.460 to be able to find a relationship because i'm not handsome not good looking uh what do you say to

00:40:19.400 those folks first of all you really try to become as independent as you can i mean whether you're

00:40:25.660 good looking or not there's no guarantee you're going to find somebody particularly if you're a

00:40:29.780 woman there are always seem to be more women who are interested in and capable of close relationships 1.00

00:40:35.780 than there are men so i think women are always caught a little bit in a musical chairs game and if

00:40:41.640 they focus too much on whether they can find somebody or not they're making a big deal out of

00:40:47.820 something they fundamentally don't control you try to build up your own life and become as aware as

00:40:53.520 you can of the kind of person you need and then it comes down once your self-esteem doesn't entirely

00:41:01.240 depend on it on uh what you were saying earlier on being a very good headhunter not wasting your time

00:41:09.840 not making the kind of compromise that would tie you up with somebody so that you're not free

00:41:14.800 if somebody really good comes along being really selective and then whether you find somebody or not

00:41:21.780 appreciating what a good job you're doing when you're independent and you're selective and you're

00:41:27.500 protecting yourself from those compromises that would be a disaster you're doing a very very good job

00:41:34.360 and that's all you can do in life the rest is not up to you well we also have this thing in the book

00:41:39.300 where we talk about the falsity of the phrase there's someone for everyone and and part of it

00:41:45.800 is based on the fact that when my parents both worked in the public mental hospital uh there's

00:41:51.080 someone for everyone was a joking catchphrase which they would use when a patient came in who was

00:41:56.740 extra crazy or usually extra physically gross in terms of they hadn't showered or their crazy was

00:42:03.460 manifest in their uh love of eating whatever was in public toilets i mean really yucky stuff and

00:42:09.340 those people were always married always whereupon everyone on the floor would go there's someone for

00:42:15.480 everyone uh so usually when you really start thinking you know oh i'm too unattractive like i'm so

00:42:21.180 unattractive i'm not gonna find anyone that's that's just negative thinking period i mean you might

00:42:25.960 have done a sort of realistic assessment and said yeah i i way more than average or i don't have

00:42:33.020 the nose of my dreams but if you're really thinking you know oh well i'm too not good looking enough to 0.97

00:42:39.640 find anyone trust me if you were really yucky if you were really crazy you would have no trouble 0.96

00:42:45.700 finding someone it's it has nothing to do with your looks 99 of the time or your or your breath or any of 0.90

00:42:52.720 that stuff it's really not within your control uh and it's it it's not that simple so don't beat

00:42:59.780 yourself up for appearance or even you know any number of factors in terms of why you're going to 0.96

00:43:05.920 be alone because if you really don't want to be alone just start acting like a lunatic um go to 0.55

00:43:11.420 the public mental hospital i promise you you will find someone within 24 hours but it's a pretty high 0.93

00:43:16.380 price to pay your sanity better to hold on to that and also i mean it seems just to focus on

00:43:22.360 finding someone who displays these characteristics that you talk about in the book you'll eventually find

00:43:28.620 they might take a while but you you'll you might you you may find them so so far we've been talking

00:43:32.460 about uh potential long-term relationships what about people who are already in a relationship

00:43:37.140 who are already in a marriage any advice for them where you know they they're married five years later

00:43:43.140 they realize that their spouse uh displays some of these the downsides of these things we've been

00:43:49.680 talking about like they realize okay i was attracted to this person's charisma and now i find it

00:43:55.100 kind of grading any advice for them like do they just keep plugging along and just focus on the

00:44:00.640 positive and uh downplay the the negative aspects well one thing we always talk about whether it's

00:44:06.780 you know confronting your own shortcomings or the shortcomings of a relationship or in a job or

00:44:11.640 anything is doing a sort of honest assessment you know someone might have a really annoying habit

00:44:17.860 but uh look at their qualities overall are there positive contributions uh do they outnumber the

00:44:25.400 negative uh aspects of their personality or even what they bring to a marriage if they are always

00:44:33.380 charming people but you don't have reason to believe that they are you know unfaithful and that

00:44:42.000 they're not driven to please other people to the point where they aren't fulfilling their duties as

00:44:47.040 a husband or a father that they're still spending time with the kids that they're still keeping on

00:44:51.880 top of their family obligations then yeah it is worth sort of just plugging along and finding ways to

00:44:58.060 focus less on it and other things that you can do so you aren't so uh so that you're more distracted

00:45:04.480 if somebody if you know you find that the opposite is true then that's not a quality you can put up with

00:45:10.620 if someone is so charming that they are always fooling around and they are never home and they're

00:45:16.700 you know possibly putting you at risk of any number of venereal diseases yeah that's a deal breaker um

00:45:22.980 but sometimes those qualities are outweighed by positive contributions and positive qualities and

00:45:28.380 it's it's worth thinking very seriously about that and not just letting your annoyed feelings and your

00:45:34.460 you know your general disappointment get in the way of or you know draw you away from a relationship

00:45:41.380 that is more positive than negative sort of after five or ten years you've got a lot of

00:45:46.180 money tied up in things you own together maybe you've got kids there's so many reasons to to assess

00:45:53.180 rather than to get into the negative feelings you have when they really irritate you or hurt your

00:45:59.160 feelings so that doing a kind of independent assessment where you're looking at it in terms of your values

00:46:04.720 and how your partnership advances those values trying to think about it from your own point of

00:46:10.400 view is just very important a way of fighting that tendency of getting into the negative feelings that

00:46:17.000 you get when you're hurt or angry and then if you think the relationship is worthwhile anyway

00:46:22.240 there are positive ways to discuss differences to see whether you can reduce them or negotiate them

00:46:30.600 and again they're very business-like methods they rely on talking calmly and positively rather than

00:46:37.600 saying frankly i hate this and i you know i wonder what you mean by it uh where you're trying to say

00:46:43.580 more things like look i i like this about our relationship you do this well you do that well

00:46:49.480 but this one area really makes you less effective and hurts both of us and i wonder if you could get

00:46:56.880 more of a handle on it that when you get yourself in that frame of mind you you still can't change

00:47:01.900 people but you've got a better crack at knowing what you value about the relationship and being

00:47:08.880 somewhat more persuasive i mean one in talking about how marriage used to be or pairing off it used to be

00:47:16.120 seen in a more practical and pragmatic way it wasn't just a matter of survival but it's also that if you

00:47:22.320 were from the same small town or you have the same religious background that there's a good chance

00:47:26.280 you share the sort of the same values and outlook on life and if the reason we put that emphasis

00:47:31.540 on looking at someone's values is because if you run into conflicts like this or in other areas

00:47:37.940 then usually you'll have the same goals you know if someone values family and they're

00:47:44.520 distracted from their uh their family duties then if you point that out to them in a business-like way

00:47:52.320 then they will want to get back on track because they care about that as much as you do even if

00:47:57.500 they're screwing up so that's what like it's it keeps these arguments from being impersonal or keeps

00:48:03.580 them from being muddled because you don't share those goals or you don't see things the same way

00:48:08.500 if you fundamentally share a goal as in terms of the family that you want based on the kind of people

00:48:15.800 you want to be having these discussions is a lot less fraught and they're you know it's not it doesn't

00:48:22.600 have to be as personal and angry right you need to remind them about the uh the corporate mission

00:48:26.640 statement exactly exactly susan let's read our mission statement again um have some flow charts

00:48:35.580 yeah there's flow charts and everything a logo well michael sir this has been a great conversation

00:48:42.820 where can people learn more about the book uh well we have our website which we we usually we do

00:48:48.960 answer uh when people write in with cases but because we've been so busy promoting and writing books

00:48:53.460 we've been a little slack but we hire a millennial who knows how to do social media too so our website

00:48:59.740 is um fxckfeelings.com um but we're on facebook i think instagram and tumblr under some

00:49:07.340 and many iterations of that it's all connected through the website though so we're all over the

00:49:13.100 the interwebs fantastic well sarah and michael bennett thank you so much for your time it's been

00:49:17.460 a pleasure my guests today were michael and sarah bennett they're the author of the book f love

00:49:21.980 it's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere you can find more information about

00:49:25.920 their work at fxckfeelings.com fxckfeelings.com you also find our show notes at aom.is

00:49:34.540 slash f love where you can find the links to resources where you can delve deeper into this

00:49:37.900 topic well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips and

00:49:48.220 advice make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com if you enjoy this

00:49:52.620 show and have gotten something out of it i'd appreciate it if you give us a review on itunes

00:49:56.180 or stitcher that helps us out a lot you need the word out about the show so thank you for your

00:49:59.340 reviews as always thank you for your continued support and until next time this is brett mckay

00:50:03.100 telling you to stay manly

00:50:04.760 you

00:50:33.100 you

The Art of Manliness - March 21, 2017

#288： Love is Overrated

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