The Art of Manliness - #289： Revenge of Analog

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast software is eating

00:00:19.340 the world or so we're told products that once took up physical space can be contained in our

00:00:24.300 smartphones and held in the palms of our hands instead of having a record collection we can now

00:00:28.200 stream any music anywhere in any time we want instead of shelves and shelves of books we have

00:00:33.020 access to thousands of volumes in our kindle app instead of stacks of photo albums can store

00:00:37.360 virtually unlimited collection of pictures in the digital cloud but in the cultural background to

00:00:42.360 this digital shift there's been a silent rebellion brewing my guest tracks that rebellion in his book

00:00:46.980 the revenge of the analog today on the show author david sax and i talk about why we're seeing return

00:00:51.760 to analog products like vinyl records hard copy books and pen and paper and it's not just because

00:00:57.820 of nostalgia david goes into detail about the sudden revival of vinyl and turntables and why

00:01:02.420 it's more than just a hipster fad why hard copy book sales are going up while ebook sales are declining

00:01:07.480 and why writing with pen and paper unleashes creativity compared to typing or writing on a

00:01:12.320 screen he then gets into how the internet is counterintuitively driving this upsurge of

00:01:16.140 interest in tangible products and the benefits we get psychologically culturally and economically

00:01:20.340 by living in an analog world after the show's over check out the show notes at aom.is

00:01:25.660 slash analog david sax welcome to the show thanks for having me on brett so you got a new book out

00:01:45.220 uh when i saw the title of it i was really intrigued by the title it's the the revenge of the analog

00:01:50.960 and it's all about this trend you've been noticing where analog products things like vinyl records

00:01:59.740 paperback books stuff that we thought were going to be dead are all of a sudden having this weird

00:02:05.980 comeback i'm curious when did you when did you notice that this stuff was that we thought was dead

00:02:13.460 because of the internet because of digital technology when did you start noticing it when

00:02:17.180 did you start noticing this trend of the revenge of the analog uh i guess it first kind of um started

00:02:24.200 appearing to me a decade ago uh i was living in toronto and um you know had just actually uploaded my

00:02:32.340 entire cd collection to itunes and then you know my roommate and i had figured a way to stream it over

00:02:38.320 the uh wi-fi and it was like that was it we had reached peak digital music and uh it was almost like

00:02:45.520 that our consumption of music disappeared overnight once that happened and um and very shortly after

00:02:52.300 that ironically his parents gave us their old turntable and their old records and i started

00:02:57.080 listening to records again and really getting into it and i was noticing that you know a number of other

00:03:02.560 people i knew who were also really into music were kind of getting back into turntables and records as

00:03:07.260 well and there were you know the music stores were still kind of i guess contracting at that point um

00:03:14.100 in the imagination but the ones in our neighborhood were doing okay and there was even like one or two

00:03:18.740 new record stores that were opening up um there were new records newly pressed records that were

00:03:24.400 available and i started noticing in other ways you know that the moleskin notebook had kind of become

00:03:29.480 this ubiquitous thing by that point um where you know paperless technology i mean things like the palm

00:03:36.600 pilot and the blackberry were supposed to eradicated that and and it just kept getting sort of deep more

00:03:42.580 deeply ingrained into um into the world i knew and the lives of people i knew and so i i think what

00:03:49.340 interested me is like you know it was this it was this idea that you know you look around and you see

00:03:56.380 things that aren't supposed to be happening in in kind of the the popular imagination in the narrative that

00:04:03.040 we're told about technological progress which is you know the old thing renders is rendered obsolete by

00:04:09.240 the new thing and it disappears and goes away and everything moves forward and on and and it was almost

00:04:14.000 like this was happening in a parallel way right it was it was you know the the old thing had been

00:04:19.600 rendered obsolete and then it started growing again even as the digital grew ever more you know quickly

00:04:25.040 and more powerfully and it was it was the beginning of something that i kept watching over the next

00:04:30.180 couple years and it just kept getting bigger and having sort of more consequence to it and especially

00:04:37.580 it was almost as though you know the greater and more powerful and more central to our lives digital

00:04:43.580 technology became the more pervasive this revenge of analog as i later called it sort of grew into

00:04:52.000 and i mean so that brings my next question like why what do you think's driving this revenge of the

00:04:57.240 analog is it people are just tired of digital technology like they're tired of being able to

00:05:03.580 stream whatever song they want at any place they they are are they looking for is it nostalgia i mean

00:05:10.740 what what's going on here what why why are people returning back to final records and paper notebooks

00:05:16.620 i think there's a number of different factors it's not just one and and it certainly varies by

00:05:21.760 individual nostalgia is kind of cited as as the most common one and and i actually don't put a lot

00:05:26.940 of weight in that um you know most of this is being driven by people who are in their 30s or 20s or

00:05:33.400 even younger that never touched or knew this technology in the first place uh you know my

00:05:38.520 friend's daughter who's nine years old and asked for a fuji film instax you know instant film camera last

00:05:44.500 year for her birthday i mean this is a kid who's only known photography is something that happens on

00:05:48.720 iphones and ipads the other notion that we're sort of tired of digital technology and rejecting it is is

00:05:54.780 also i think a false one you know most of us who are uh driving the return of analog things and ideas

00:06:03.320 are as digitally enmeshed in the world as everyone around them which is why when you go into a coffee

00:06:08.800 shop and you see someone writing on a moleskin notebook they have their laptop and their you know

00:06:14.320 phone next to them on the table i think what that shows and what the reality is is people are looking

00:06:20.560 for a balance in what works for them whether it's professionally and the way that they approach

00:06:26.940 their work or their creative tasks or whether it's personally how they access culture and entertainment

00:06:33.720 and leisure and um the things in the world that matter to them and the notion that we want you know we're we

00:06:42.380 will be content with the most efficient thing and one solution which is what you know the iphone i'm

00:06:49.500 holding in my hand now offers right you never need anything but this one thing is one that i think we

00:06:54.820 subscribe to and now having lived with that technology for 10 years i'm having seen something like you

00:07:01.400 know digital music streaming services be around for a decade we see that okay you can have that but you

00:07:09.440 also want more right it's almost the idea of you know once you've achieved all this all the wealth and

00:07:17.300 affluence or comfort in your life it's not like you stop there people are always saying oh when i make

00:07:21.660 a million bucks you know that i'm gonna be set and that'll be it you know you know dust my hands off and

00:07:26.100 bada bing bada boom but then you seek more you seek more as a consumer you seek more from a spiritual

00:07:33.340 perspective or you seek to find the things that work for you even counterintuitively right like the idea

00:07:40.520 that you know something which is going to be the fastest and the best and the most powerful is

00:07:47.260 always going to be access to your computer doesn't necessarily play out when you actually get down to

00:07:52.940 using it and so for many people you know digital has become almost an obstruction to the way they're

00:07:59.120 doing things and analog provides a bit of a counterweight to that and just a different process

00:08:04.300 to create things to enjoy things to sort of you know interact with the world and so i think it is

00:08:13.040 it is almost a technological maturity that we're reaching right where we're able to evaluate the

00:08:18.420 strengths of each and say well you know analog works for me here and digital works for me here and i

00:08:22.760 want you know i want both of them yeah and we'll talk about getting more specifics about how different

00:08:27.480 analog things like whether it's music or in books or whatever the benefits of that you can't go

00:08:33.840 digital but what i thought was an interesting argument you make throughout the book is that

00:08:38.080 this revenge of the analog in a lot of ways is being powered by the internet right this thing

00:08:43.640 that we thought was supposed to replace and sort of kill all this stuff like the reason why it's

00:08:47.800 making a comeback is because we have the internet and people are able to find like the moleskin i mean 0.87

00:08:52.000 the way i discovered the moleskin was on the internet you know about 10 years ago when people were

00:08:56.720 making moleskin pdas and showing how amazing moleskins were for keeping track of your to-do list and

00:09:02.480 whatever and it's not just that like other areas the internet has brought back these these old things

00:09:09.280 yeah and and i think that is you know that that's the interesting thing and and why it's not a

00:09:14.400 technological rejection or you know a purely nostalgia based thing right in many ways you know digital

00:09:20.840 technologies something like kickstarter for example right the crowdfunding website as well as you know

00:09:26.380 indiegogo and others have created you know tremendous opportunities for people to build analog products

00:09:33.680 and services things like you know board games and tabletop games which previously you know the barrier

00:09:40.100 to entry was fairly high you needed to have a publisher you need to sell the rights so on and so forth

00:09:44.180 now someone can you know come up with an idea and make a quick little video put it up there and if it

00:09:48.560 you know earns enough backing then you know they're off to the races in production

00:09:52.460 uh the internet has allowed sort of disparate communities of niche users of products like

00:09:58.120 you know rare types of film photography let's say you know expired polaroid film or expired large

00:10:04.320 format film to find themselves from around the world and get in touch share ideas share projects that

00:10:10.140 we're doing and again you know build these these markets which can then scale um at a pace when you know

00:10:18.000 the regular large industry has sort of abandoned that at an early point and then of course you even get

00:10:24.880 into the things like you know manufacturing technologies things like 3d printing or or the

00:10:30.100 ability to sort of source manufacturing around the world for for specific ideas and products again you

00:10:35.620 know all those who are driving this analog counter revolution if you want to call it that um are using

00:10:43.000 every tool at their disposal to make it happen they're not dogmatic about it you know sitting

00:10:47.980 in some basement somewhere you know printing out mimeographed paper leaflets that they're handing

00:10:53.360 out from soap boxes unless that's their that's their jam you know more power to them for that 0.97

00:10:58.240 all right so let's talk about this some of the specific um areas where you're seeing this revenge

00:11:02.560 of the analog come back let's talk about vinyl first vinyl i mean just a few years ago vinyl was pretty

00:11:08.220 much dead companies the press companies were shutting down the ones that were open were open

00:11:13.880 like two or three times a week that was it but like in the past i don't know five years it's made

00:11:19.860 this huge comeback there's these companies where you can subscribe to get you know new vinyl records

00:11:25.340 once a month turntable sales are just going nuts like i my for my birthday this year my wife got me

00:11:32.060 a turntable and it's it's been fantastic i mean i think it's funny in the book you mentioned uh

00:11:37.000 like herp albert and the tijuana brass like i i i got my dad's old herp albert and the tijuana brass

00:11:43.080 album and it's fantastic can you give just give us an idea what were vinyl cells like say

00:11:48.680 10 years ago and what are they like now well the low point you know in was in 2006 that's kind of the

00:11:56.700 the bottoming of of sales and the sales had been declining really since you know the early 80s when

00:12:01.780 the compact disc came out um so you had sort of initial you know lowering when you know eight

00:12:07.700 tracks and tapes provided the the first competition for vinyl records and then you know i think 1986

00:12:13.380 or something is is is when cds hit the mass market you know it just sort of steadily declined to there

00:12:19.100 and then of course downloading and so forth so you know 2006 in the united states alone you had i think

00:12:25.620 900 and something thousand new records pressed right none of this deals with you know secondhand

00:12:31.340 vinyl um your your dad my dad's tijuana brass uh whipped cream and other dreams or whatever it's

00:12:37.980 called album right every every man of a certain generation has done that just as just an example

00:12:43.080 so so that's you know half you know less than a million records press last year according to nielsen

00:12:48.480 in 2016 i think it was as high in the u.s as as maybe 13 million records pressed new records um to

00:12:57.420 say nothing of the trade of sort of secondhand records and and other markets around the world like

00:13:01.840 the uk and europe and south america um everywhere where vinyl has continued to grow so you're talking

00:13:08.040 about you know a a 13 time or more growth in the span of a decade and and the growth has been fairly

00:13:15.500 consistent double digit growth every single year you know every year there are skeptics saying well

00:13:20.140 this is going to bottom out this is going to crater this isn't going to last and every year it keeps

00:13:23.740 growing and of course with that goes the sales of turntables new turntables coming on the market by

00:13:29.040 new companies or old companies reviving turntable designs in order to service that growing demand you

00:13:35.740 know because unlike digital music where you just copy and paste endlessly and it doesn't really matter

00:13:41.360 you know you're talking about the physical production of a product right melting pellets of

00:13:46.760 plastic and sandwiching them in these giant waffle presses which are you know record presses which they

00:13:52.080 don't make anymore so not only do you have new record pressing companies opening up all around the

00:13:57.860 united states and all around the world and in all these markets to serve them you have now have new

00:14:02.820 companies building the record presses to service those so not only are you talking about the growth of

00:14:09.000 people buying records the growth of people pressing records the growth of record stores of all sorts of

00:14:14.400 different niches in cities and towns all over the world to serve this growing market you're talking

00:14:20.020 about all the jobs and the money and the economic activity that's going into that and people now

00:14:25.080 estimate it's a billion dollar market right or more which is incredible because when i was interviewing

00:14:30.460 someone i think he was at either warner music or universal music you know three years ago when i was

00:14:36.500 working on the book he's like i doubt this will ever be a billion dollar market that was his exact quote and

00:14:41.160 now you know it's it's there so the growth has been pretty astounding and and i think if you live

00:14:47.100 in any sizable community anywhere town a city you can see it right you see people walking with record

00:14:54.860 sleeves on the street you see record stores opening up you see people in urban outfitters shopping for a

00:15:01.020 huge selection of records urban outfitters is now the biggest you know retailer of of records in the

00:15:07.920 brick and water world and and it's to many people it's it's this undeniable example of the sort of

00:15:14.800 larger phenomenon that are happening that's happening and to other people they just can't wrap their heads

00:15:19.320 around it it's just kind of you know this back to the future moment that that they can't square with

00:15:25.220 the logic that you know in your phone you can get all that music for free streamed to you wherever

00:15:30.700 you are without having to put it on a shelf or deal with it or pay money for it so i mean what do you

00:15:35.660 think's driving the comeback i mean like you said it is buying a record is inconvenient right you have to

00:15:40.760 go to the store if you want to play something you got to put it on the record player uh when one side's

00:15:45.640 over you got to go and flip it over uh so there is inconvenience so like why are people going back to it

00:15:51.320 if it is so inconvenient well let me ask you why did you want a turntable for your birthday uh i part

00:15:58.480 of the inconvenience was part of the the thing that was surprisingly was the thing that drew me to it

00:16:03.640 um i also just i got sick of like streaming music devalued music to me right because like it's all

00:16:12.400 became sort of everything became muzak right and i i remembered having albums like i had this thing i

00:16:20.920 could heft in my hand like this is i don't know i like that feeling and so that's why i got it well

00:16:27.540 that that is you know exactly the reason i think most people cite and um the key to it is that it is an

00:16:34.580 entirely in a rational emotional um pursuit right from all logical perspectives financial you know

00:16:46.180 space saving um uh you know time use it makes the most logical sense to only listen to streamed music

00:16:58.220 on you know some sort of apple device or or android device right and and that that still holds true

00:17:05.240 but i think what we have to realize is like we are not logical creatures right we are highly

00:17:12.640 ideological creatures that's what allows us to make things like music good music bad music

00:17:18.040 whatever you have it i mean that that is at the core of the human experience and music is not

00:17:24.140 something that um you know is a necessity is is so much as i mean it's a necessity in some way but

00:17:32.740 it's not like food or medicine right where we're you know seeking seeking you know sustenance or or

00:17:39.180 something at the absolute most logical way um it's it is culture and it is passion and it is an emotional

00:17:46.880 act and while digital music allows us to access that in all sorts of different ways it it does so at

00:17:55.320 the cost of many different points of engagement that uh we've realized or many of us have realized

00:18:02.960 yourself myself included are actually very pleasurable right so you know going to a

00:18:09.160 record store and flipping through bins for an hour to find one or two records you might like on a

00:18:14.960 saturday you know when you compare that with tapping on the search bar and spotify or or you know the

00:18:21.220 recommendation algorithm and pulling up something is a highly inefficient act it's you know a waste of

00:18:26.860 your time it requires you to go somewhere in your car on your foot it costs a lot more money

00:18:32.300 and yet it's so much fun right buying a record at the store is almost half the fun of buying a

00:18:39.140 record you talk to people you discover things you make friendships you are spending time doing

00:18:46.640 something that isn't just sitting at home looking at the same screen you look at all day

00:18:50.880 in the same way that having that collection displayed in your house even though it takes

00:18:56.020 up precious shelf space and it's heavy as hell and when you have to move good lord you know get a 0.53

00:19:01.160 chiropractor because those boxes of records are some of the heaviest damn things you'll ever have

00:19:05.260 to move there's a pleasure in that too you walk in and see the records on the shelf and it's like you

00:19:10.760 know that is the the lion head on your wall if you're a record collector it is your personal taste

00:19:15.900 there for everyone to see in a way that's very different and much more personal and much more

00:19:21.760 permanent than you know a curated split playlist that you might you know share socially on on a site

00:19:28.120 like spotify or apple music or whatever the you know whatever thing you subscribe to for you know

00:19:33.960 eight dollars a month and i think that's that you know shows the sort of deeper relationship we have

00:19:39.960 as humans have to the physical world and real things right they give us a way to interact with

00:19:48.040 the world with our five senses and most importantly with each other that the digital world simply doesn't

00:19:55.840 it renders those things obsolete because of the nature of the efficiency and the communication

00:20:01.380 yeah i mean i think that idea like the the tangible actually socializing more visceral as well right

00:20:08.500 because like yeah you can go over to someone's house you can flip through their albums or look

00:20:12.140 through their bookshelves and like you can take something out and you can you have this conversation

00:20:15.380 that's awesome then you just yeah you can share your whole book collection or your whole cd collect or

00:20:21.380 your music collection to your friend but it's not the same like you can't you won't have that

00:20:25.180 conversation that same sort of conversation as you would if you were in person holding this object

00:20:30.960 right could you i mean you wouldn't you know strike up you can very easily walk be walking down the

00:20:37.420 street or in a coffee shop around an airplane or somewhere and someone can have a book with them

00:20:42.120 right and you can immediately start a conversation based upon a shared interest in that book but the

00:20:49.080 nature of you know digital technology is that there is an element of privacy a sort of cocoon

00:20:55.040 around it you're never going to look on someone's screen and say oh you're reading that on your

00:20:58.620 kindle oh cool i read the revenge of analog it renders it kind of faceless and uh and so you know

00:21:05.720 in many ways i mean and there's sociologists that talk about this you know these devices that were sort

00:21:10.300 of there to create greater social interactions and experience have in many ways sort of created a

00:21:16.060 barrier to them um we can have these surface interactions and experiences on you know twitter and

00:21:21.520 facebook but you know the the deeper face-to-face interactions that which we need as human beings

00:21:27.600 in order to thrive and survive in the world uh you know analog still remains the best outlet for that

00:21:33.360 to happen i also like one of the other things i like about analog products is you can lend it out to

00:21:37.560 people right um i mean yeah you there's like things you can somehow share your but like i love being able

00:21:43.700 to borrow a book from somebody or borrow an album or if you're you know kid from the 80s like borrow

00:21:49.280 video games right i mean that was just it was fun i don't know what it was and whenever you see that

00:21:54.180 object in your house like not only do you think about the the content in the object but you also

00:21:58.340 think about the person who owns that object like oh yeah this was been like this like it this is like

00:22:03.840 a part of bin that i have in my house and then it makes you i should reach out to ben and talk about

00:22:08.100 what i read in his book yeah and and you know as you said your wife gave you the turntable for your

00:22:14.060 your birthday right i mean that is every time you look at that turntable you're going to think of her

00:22:18.100 my turntable was given to me my friend dave levy who's a musician and a dj um and you know works

00:22:24.180 works in human rights around the world and for my 30th birthday in new york he had an extra turntable

00:22:30.340 and he's like here you go man here you go and i you know every time i i put it on i think about him

00:22:35.080 and and every year for his birthday when he comes back to toronto i buy him a record as a thank you i

00:22:40.060 mean that is that is the basis of a relationship right um you can't do that in the same way

00:22:46.840 with digital music you know someone bought me a subscription to a streaming service once yeah it

00:22:52.260 was cool you know and then the next year i had to pay for the subscription myself you know how many

00:22:56.140 times you've been emailed some sort of amazon gift card and you're like okay cool it doesn't again hold

00:23:01.000 that same meaning it doesn't hold that same uh value and and i think you know one of the interesting

00:23:06.780 things that i really that really struck me is you know the reasons that you talked about why you

00:23:12.640 wanted a turntable why you enjoy it and the reasons that are cited by many people especially

00:23:17.520 of you know a younger generation sound is like the bottom one right there's this assumption by you

00:23:24.680 know baby boomers and those older that oh this is a new generation of audio files and the sound

00:23:29.220 quality is better but sound quality is highly subjective i have a lot of sort of old scratchy

00:23:34.120 records that the sound quality isn't necessarily great and if i listen to that same

00:23:37.840 file on a on a streaming service it might actually sound better but the sound is just one element of

00:23:46.000 the experience um and music like so many other things in our life is actually more than just the

00:23:52.980 way the information is purely translated it is an experience that we we indulge in with all our five

00:24:00.020 senses and i think that's something that we took for granted for a number of years as we move to

00:24:06.040 digitize things you know as quickly as possible all right let's uh shift gears to books because i

00:24:11.080 remember a few years ago you there wouldn't like a week wouldn't go by when you didn't you know read

00:24:16.440 some article about the the death of publishing right that the e-reader was going to kill paperback

00:24:23.660 hardbound books um but that didn't happen in fact i think i read a recent um study that said that

00:24:30.260 e-readers like ebooks are going down while paperback books and hard copy books are going

00:24:35.980 up um so what's going on there why are people returning to dead tree books instead of using the

00:24:43.220 convenience of a kindle reader or something well i think it you know they never even went away um

00:24:48.960 that was the interesting thing that there were these predictions that when the kindle came out in

00:24:52.900 i think 2007 or so um uh this would be it right this would be you know the the mp3 moment for the

00:24:59.580 publishing industry and all the publishers were sort of quaking in their boots and it never really

00:25:04.100 happened ebooks have certainly grown they they own a percentage of the market you know kindles and

00:25:09.720 e-readers and kobos and so on you know have a percentage too though that percentage is declining

00:25:14.060 and their decline is a mix of people's kind of not using them as much like i haven't touched my

00:25:19.180 kindle in a year and a half or two years uh as well as you know competition from other devices where

00:25:24.620 you can just get the kindle app on your ipad and you don't even need to buy the dedicated device

00:25:29.560 but i think what you know the most important thing was is that people especially in the the

00:25:37.900 digital media industry as well as the publishing industry they really discounted the value that

00:25:45.280 people place on books as objects and um again it goes back to what i was saying about records right

00:25:52.840 it is an illogical thing even more so information if you buy you know a copy of the revenge

00:25:59.520 of analog on kindle or kobo or nook or whatever you're going to pay less money for it and the

00:26:05.640 information is the exact same you don't get any extra words right you don't get any fewer words either

00:26:10.840 when you go out and pay you know 26 dollars or whatever it is for the hardcover version of that book

00:26:18.040 you're getting a chunk of dead tree um with some some letters printed on it and it's the exact same

00:26:23.920 as the other one you know i i just got recently like some statistics from my publisher about how the

00:26:28.820 book's doing you know take a guess at what percentage of the revenge of analog was sold in digital um i'm

00:26:35.220 gonna say 25 i think it's like eight percent which is fairly standard for you know most you know mass

00:26:44.680 market um um books out there there's certain areas romance fantasy self-published where ebooks are

00:26:50.520 are certainly statistically much higher but you know your average sort of non-fiction book that might be on

00:26:57.460 the bestseller list or or fiction book is you know a relatively small percentage which represents the

00:27:02.740 percentage of sales you know for the publishing industry overall of of what those books represent

00:27:08.280 so why is it why is it that people will still go out and and pay for these you know stacks of dead

00:27:16.280 shredded trees with ink on them uh what is it about it it's again the relationship we have to books

00:27:24.340 right what they represent what they symbolize they are aspirational capitalism at its finest um we have

00:27:32.460 a very strong emotional attachment to them the idea of having a bookcase filled with books in your house

00:27:38.140 is you know that is that is it you are you you have arrived as a member of the you know educated middle

00:27:43.880 class and i think it goes back to childhood i have two very young kids um you know a three and a half

00:27:50.580 year old who's a voracious little reader um uh with me reading to her of course and and you know a

00:27:56.780 seven month old and uh you know books are their life books are everything uh especially to the older

00:28:03.880 one i mean you know a night without three stories or four stories with a whole lot of begging in it

00:28:09.500 it is there's no bedtime i mean it just it wouldn't happen so it's such an ingrained part of the way we live

00:28:16.560 and see the world but it's also something that again has those same tactile advantages you can loan

00:28:22.480 a friend a book you can mark them up you never have to worry about the battery failing uh they can last

00:28:27.940 for hundreds and hundreds of years you can give them as gifts you can give them away you can do

00:28:33.740 whatever you want to them um and and they remain there it is very much the sort of perfect form for

00:28:40.960 how we love to absorb information and and so they prove resilient and i think you know very little

00:28:46.980 is going to come and change that simply because it's it's proven to be something that we actually

00:28:51.560 want and desire right i think i read also another study that um that came out not too long ago that

00:28:57.980 people actually retain information better when they read from a printed page compared to from when

00:29:04.000 they read on a screen um it's something about the tangibility of the thing that helps supposedly but

00:29:10.760 i've noticed that myself when i read on a screen i just tend to skim but when i read a book like a

00:29:15.760 physical book i uh i am more absorbed in the process yeah and and you know listen i i used my kindle almost

00:29:22.740 exclusively for a year or two and read some fantastic books on it and and it didn't diminish those books in

00:29:28.980 any way but you know what was interesting was when i began research on this book i got a library card

00:29:35.120 um you know toronto public library and i started out taking out books for research that i didn't

00:29:41.280 necessarily want to own um i just needed to read you know a little bit of take some notes and and and uh

00:29:47.540 and send them back and so i remember reading that the first book and paper that i read you know after

00:29:54.680 a year and a half of using the kindle and it was just instantly within two pages i was like

00:30:00.460 oh yeah i like reading this way so much more that was it there wasn't there was no overt reason why i

00:30:06.460 mean one of the things was knowing where a page is and knowing where you are just by sort of sense and

00:30:13.440 feel right instead of having the little numerical oh you're you know 10 done or you're you're on page

00:30:19.780 106 of you know 252 you could feel it you could flip you could skim back you didn't have to deal

00:30:25.800 with menus and options it's the simplicity of an act that we've known again since you know we're young

00:30:32.440 children i i watch my three you know my seven month old you know now he knows how to flip back and forth

00:30:39.340 in his little you know five page sandra boynton picture books um you know he'll grab the page and flip

00:30:44.800 it back and then put it in his mouth and vomit on it but you know that there is something again 0.51

00:30:49.940 inherently hardwired into our brains about that and that's because we are tactile creatures right we like

00:30:56.900 to touch we have our five senses and we like to use them and the more we use them the more we get out

00:31:03.880 of something which is why you know that the the digital world which limits us to sort of taps with a

00:31:11.420 fingertip on a flat textureless piece of glass doesn't give us that same sensory feedback yeah

00:31:17.700 you just brought up another reason i just remembered why i am sort of returning to paperback books and

00:31:23.660 music this is going to sound really tinfoil hattie like when you buy like a ebook or digital music like

00:31:30.360 you read the the terms of service like you really don't own it right like you're sort of renting it

00:31:35.420 from amazon or whatever and like they could take that back they could delete it right from your

00:31:41.460 device and you couldn't really do you don't have much recourse going on and so like but when you

00:31:46.780 have like an actual object like amazon can't come into your house and steal it because like there's

00:31:51.140 laws they can say no you can't do that so that's another reason like i just want i like knowing that

00:31:55.280 i own my culture like this is mine you can't take it back or delete it accidentally or whatever yeah

00:32:00.600 and i don't think you know it's it's it's it's too crazy what you're talking about i mean i had

00:32:05.500 before i had a subscription to spotify i had a subscription to rdio which was a competitor it

00:32:10.780 raised you know a couple hundred million dollars um and i had you know i liked it better than

00:32:15.560 spotify and i had all sorts of albums saved and playlists that i'd made because i listened to digital

00:32:20.360 music when i'm you know in the car or walking when i can't lug my turntable around with me and then it

00:32:25.960 went bankrupt and it was like they sent a little thing it's like hey you know we're really sorry we've

00:32:30.120 gone bankrupt or we've been bought by pandora and we're going to be absorbed into their company as

00:32:34.780 of monday your service will be done and that was it it was like everything was gone right all the

00:32:40.340 albums i'd saved all the things i'd done was gone but you know unless someone breaks into my house or

00:32:46.100 there's a fire or a flood my records will be there and they are to do with whatever i want to do with

00:32:54.420 them if i want to give them away if i want to sell them if i want to store them if i want to crack

00:32:59.020 them over my knee i can do whatever i want with them it's my property i think they're you know

00:33:04.560 this notion that we would move beyond an ownership society is one of these fantastical ideas that

00:33:11.060 gets ballied about in kind of you know silicon valley utopian circles um that goes against human

00:33:18.260 nature and and what we like about the world and how we want to interact with the world so let's move

00:33:24.180 back onto paper right so that's another thing like i remember my uncle said this a while back and this

00:33:28.920 was like two decades ago that uh it's like yeah you know they've been saying we're gonna have a

00:33:33.460 paperless office but like there's more paper than ever like i feel like i have more paper and that's

00:33:37.300 gotten true like even with these new devices that have made you know given the possibility of paper

00:33:42.680 becoming obsolete we are still drawn to paper and in the book you talk about you know the moleskin

00:33:48.660 notebook but there's other things out there like field notes that are really popular with people

00:33:53.540 what's the obsession there why are we so drawn to tactile writing technology like just the old

00:34:01.640 fashioned pen notebook because it works right if you want to have an idea that pops into your head

00:34:11.140 and there's a pen and a paper sitting there on the desk next to you and there's you know a laptop

00:34:18.000 or a smartphone what is the quickest easiest way to get that idea down without any distractions

00:34:23.900 it's it's the pen and the paper right it it is it is instantaneous and you're not restrained by

00:34:30.780 what the software commands you to do if i wanted to take a note in the computer i have to go open up

00:34:35.340 a program figure out where to save that file save the file figure out the format that i want to

00:34:40.340 write it in and i can only write what it will allow me i can't doodle in some way i can't fold it over

00:34:45.400 i can't scribble things out uh which is why you know at the the biggest most successful tech companies

00:34:53.020 whether it's amazon or google or facebook you know on the desks of the brilliant engineers and creatives

00:34:59.180 that work there you have you know people using moleskin notebooks or field notebooks or just good old

00:35:05.020 pieces of scrap paper or whiteboards because uh again it is it is the the shortest way for an idea

00:35:13.280 to leave your brain and enter the physical world in some sense of permanence and i think it's it's

00:35:19.460 incredibly useful to have that balance right um so yeah there's the idea of you know having to format

00:35:24.980 it and and all that and all those simplistic things but again it's it gives you the opportunity to

00:35:30.300 do things in a way that's entirely unique to you whereas if i'm typing a note on my computer

00:35:36.260 you know it's formatted in the same way that you know microsoft word tells all documents to be

00:35:41.280 formatted or the amount of work that i have to go into to make it unique is is you know a step away

00:35:47.700 from just getting that idea out there it doesn't mean that everybody is going to move back to um you

00:35:54.080 know writing things on paper and then banging out ideas on typewriters there is a point where

00:35:58.960 moving back to the digital provides so many advantages and and it's just better i you know

00:36:04.880 i didn't write this book on a typewriter i wrote it on a computer um i'm a much faster typer than i am

00:36:10.680 with handwriting and my handwriting is atrocious and barely legible but it it allows me to think in a way

00:36:19.080 almost out loud that i can't do in the same way on a computer when i'm typing uh and so it it proves

00:36:27.260 very useful to people because it it is it's a siloed act when you're writing something in a notebook

00:36:33.940 or a piece of paper or on a whiteboard you're just writing something right you're not trying to do 10

00:36:39.660 other things at once you're not being distracted by multiple tasks coming in you're not trying to

00:36:43.380 merge it with images in video like a powerpoint presentation which are the worst things in the

00:36:48.220 world you are you are you know there with the simplicity of your idea and working through it

00:36:54.680 in a way that allows it to be seen but also very quickly changed and edited that doesn't feel precious

00:37:00.500 um that just works and and i think that's it i think at the end of the day you know beyond the

00:37:07.220 romantic notions of you know you know hemingway and picasso using the notebook of to create like

00:37:14.200 moleskin uses or you know the great american field notebook of of you know great american

00:37:19.320 workers like field notes uses or whatever it happens to be you know it just works for people

00:37:24.820 right it just works yeah i was i was actually talking to an architect friend of mine about this

00:37:29.080 topic he's been in the field for over 30 years so before cad really took on and he mentioned that

00:37:36.280 one of the saddest things that's happened in architecture in the past you know 20 or so years is

00:37:40.180 that this over reliance on computer programs to design architecture because before you an architect

00:37:46.280 would just take out some paper a blue and just like draw like freehand draw with the ruler and he

00:37:52.320 said you get these beautiful designs that would just look aesthetically pleasing but were also

00:37:56.340 architecturally sound because now people just go to the computer it's fast because there's these

00:38:01.440 pre-programmed things that you know they'll tell you you you draw a line it'll tell me how many studs

00:38:06.680 you need everything's done but like it limits what it limits creativity and he says like our

00:38:12.140 architecture has suffered as a result of that yeah there's interesting studies around that around

00:38:17.160 architecture and design um you know one of the reasons why i interviewed someone named john schedule

00:38:23.420 who works at google he's a one of their sort of chief designers of user experience and user interface so

00:38:29.240 how all google products websites gmail whatever how they look and how they work and he he created

00:38:36.260 this course for teaching other designers and employees at google how to draw things by hand

00:38:42.000 on paper and it since became mandatory pretty much for for everybody at google who works on these types

00:38:47.160 of products and he explained to me why he said because you know the software creates a bias right it it will

00:38:53.260 always steer you in the direction of what it wants you to do or what's going to be easiest or most

00:38:58.080 standardized that's because the nature of software is to standardize things you you create one set of

00:39:04.480 software and it has a set of rules and those rules go out to every edition of that software and you can

00:39:09.240 move but you have to move within the bounds of the rules right on paper you really only have to move

00:39:14.660 within the bounds the physical bounds of the page but you can do whatever the hell you want there

00:39:18.280 and so with google you know that and and many ad firms and now you know some architecture firms

00:39:23.800 the idea is when you are working on an idea for something at the first stage let's say designing

00:39:30.980 a building right don't go to the computer first go to paper first get your idea out scribble it

00:39:37.040 squiggle it doesn't have to be perfect imperfection is actually the goal and then once you have it down

00:39:43.360 of what you want and what you're working then transfer it into the computer then scan it then you know

00:39:48.620 rework it and then work on the fine details and figure out how many studs you need and what type of steel

00:39:52.880 and what angle that has to be at um so the thing doesn't collapse on your head and and i think

00:39:57.400 it's it is you know fundamentally what we're talking about here is re-embracing a kind of imperfection

00:40:06.720 in the world right and saying look we we have built these wonderful one size all fits solutions for every

00:40:16.300 sort of aspect of our life but we don't live in a one size all fits world and um and it's actually

00:40:22.560 not advantageous to us all the time let's talk about you wrote an article for esquire

00:40:27.080 magazine not too long ago i remember this article it was near the front of the magazine that's why

00:40:31.640 i remembered it and that's i think that's where i found out about your book this book that we're

00:40:35.340 talking about right now about men and collecting stuff because we've written about collecting stuff

00:40:40.260 on the site before it's like this hobby and like stuff guys collect and people guys love to talk

00:40:44.600 about their collections but this digital world makes it harder and harder to collect stuff because you

00:40:50.240 have you don't have albums to collect you don't have books to collect so you're kind of left

00:40:53.180 collecting other stuff why do you think it's so important for guys to have a collection and

00:40:57.560 and why do you think men and i think women might have this drop i think men have this draw

00:41:02.320 i i know i like stuff more than my wife i like to collect weird knickknacks what is it about stuff

00:41:08.000 and collecting things in men i i think it really is you know very primal right we we we are you know the

00:41:15.760 hunters and um and we want our conquests there on the wall i'm sitting here in my home office you

00:41:23.000 know i have you know an award one of my books won and some article about another one of my books and

00:41:28.900 you know the the poster for the launch party of this book um they're they're up there i have you know

00:41:35.480 stacks of different books that i bought which i've probably read once and will never read again

00:41:40.700 and i resist every time my wife's like conmari we have to clean out the house we have to clean this 1.00

00:41:44.880 out of too much stuff i'm like no don't touch it don't touch that book i have an emotional attachment

00:41:50.180 to it i want to see that i just want to know it's there i it's it's again it's it's an inexplicable

00:41:56.700 thing but it it gives us i think it gives us a sense of grounding right you know we live in a

00:42:04.960 world where increasingly the pace of change is so fast and uncertainty is the norm whether we're

00:42:12.280 talking about economic uncertainty technological uncertainty or you know political uncertainty

00:42:17.220 and and we need things to sort of ground ourselves to and anchor ourselves to and so there's comfort in

00:42:25.860 that right there is comfort in in you know again when you're feeling anxious you know going to that

00:42:35.380 record collection on your shelf and just rubbing your fingers along the spine and picking out something

00:42:40.300 that resonates with you uh whether it's at a breakup or a time of you know economic or familial

00:42:46.520 uncertainty in your life these these items are you know more than just kind of the lion heads on our wall

00:42:53.400 they're they're security blankets in some ways they're they're what grounds us to the past right oh

00:43:00.340 this album is you know i remember getting this album on my first date or you know when i graduated

00:43:04.880 college or whatever and that i think makes us more human i i think the idea that you know we as men must

00:43:11.900 always be moving forward and moving on and you know you know smashing the past um and disrupting

00:43:17.080 disrupting disrupting it it doesn't leave us with much to hold on to um we need to be rooted in in in in

00:43:26.100 some sort of sense of a personal identity and and sometimes that rooting happens with physical

00:43:32.060 things um and so it's you know collecting it whether it's a like you know a collection of beer cans or 0.96

00:43:38.240 um you know of like stupid t-shirts my brother remember those big johnson t-shirts my brother had 0.91

00:43:43.800 like at one point he like had like 10 of them i don't know you know it's like every time we went on 0.99

00:43:47.760 vacation you know sports memorabilia like there was no reason to own you know michael jordan's shoe for

00:43:55.200 two thousand dollars but i know people who do because it gives them some sense of who they are

00:44:00.520 that they can look at be like this is my value right this is what i like david sachs thank you

00:44:04.840 so much your time it's been a pleasure my guest name is david sachs his book is revenge of the

00:44:08.920 analog it's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere try picking it up in a hard copy book

00:44:13.980 instead of a digital one go along with the theme of the podcast um make sure to check out our show

00:44:17.900 notes at aom.is slash analog where you find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic

00:44:22.980 well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice

00:44:32.980 make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com as always appreciate

00:44:37.540 your continued support if you can give us a review on itunes or stitcher that helps that a lot

00:44:40.700 until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay manly

00:44:44.060 you

00:44:58.200 you

The Art of Manliness - March 23, 2017

#289： Revenge of Analog

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