The Art of Manliness - #295： Kettlebells and the Psychology of Training

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast we're big fans

00:00:17.980 of the kettlebell here at the art of manliness it's a great piece of gym equipment that builds

00:00:21.080 both strength and cardiovascular conditioning today on the show i talked to strong first

00:00:25.080 kettlebell coach craig marker about the wonders of these little cannonballs with handles mark

00:00:28.980 digs deep into the research done by the soviets back in the 70s and 80s that show why kettlebells

00:00:33.260 are an effective tool for building explosive power and how kettlebell training can prove your deadlift

00:00:37.520 help you jump higher and even become a better ballerina that's your thing we then segue our

00:00:41.880 conversation to talking about training in general and the mistakes beginners make when starting with

00:00:45.260 a strength program be it using kettlebells or barbells or whatever mark then makes the case

00:00:49.960 that in addition to our regular workouts we should live our lives like in the 1940s if you want to see

00:00:54.620 improved health and happiness we end our conversation talking a bit about craig's day job as a

00:00:58.680 psychology professor at mercy university and how his training as a psychologist has helped him

00:01:02.900 improve his coaching and fitness training he even shares a little trick you can play on yourself

00:01:06.500 to lift more weight or run faster after the show is over check out our show notes at aom.is

00:01:11.520 slash marker craig marker welcome to the show thank you very much so you are a strong first coach but

00:01:30.100 besides that you also do something else on on the side i guess it's not your side job but your main gig

00:01:34.960 you got a really interesting background can you tell us a little about yourself sure sure trained as a

00:01:38.720 psychologist but i've always gone back and forth between statistics and psychology did my postdoc

00:01:43.920 respecialization and quantitative methods and you're probably going to hang up on me already but

00:01:48.520 what this actually means is that i basically study not only whether interventions work but for whom they

00:01:54.960 work do they work for so in general in research we're often looking at the average effectiveness so

00:02:00.880 does it work on average but my job is really to look at for whom it works and what are the factors that

00:02:06.540 might make it work better and what factors does it not work so effectively so you know what works for

00:02:13.540 different people may not work for me or may work for you so with that i've been able to do a lot of

00:02:19.540 interesting projects i teach at mercer university but i also get to work with paul satsulin

00:02:24.620 on his kettlebell protocols and strength and conditioning protocols as well and how long you've been doing

00:02:30.120 that at strong first i think let me think here about two years or so before you started working

00:02:35.420 strong first did you do any type of coaching or training oh most definitely and i've always done

00:02:39.920 training and and you know done a lot with uh research it's just working with paul for the past

00:02:44.460 two years you know did a lot of kettlebells and you know i read paul's work years ago so i've always

00:02:49.320 been interested in the research you know on strengthening conditioning and also nutrition has always been

00:02:54.900 something i've followed pretty closely so we've had the ceo of strong first eric frohart on the show

00:02:59.520 to talk about kettlebell training in general and something we've written about extensively on the

00:03:03.140 site before i know there's a lot of folks who you know strictly use kettlebells for the training

00:03:07.660 program for example you might be doing paul's simple but sinister program i've done that before

00:03:12.480 it's great besides kettlebell training in and of itself right for it's just as your your training

00:03:18.980 protocol how can kettlebells like supplementing with kettlebells benefit other fitness domains like for

00:03:24.140 example i mean how could kettlebell training translate over to you know improving your your

00:03:30.240 squat barbell squat or your barbell deadlift sure sure if it's okay i might just give a little

00:03:35.040 background of what i see happening in the swing because i think it seems like the kettlebell has this

00:03:39.260 magical property and i want to explain it as best as i see it so yuri virko ashansky was one of the

00:03:45.900 great soviet track and field coaches in the 1960s he later you know really wrote the the field of

00:03:53.420 strength and conditioning in the soviet union he developed what was called shock training at the

00:03:58.080 time or what he called it as shock training and his athletes would drop off of a box they'd hit the

00:04:03.820 ground and rebound and jump as high as they could as quickly as possible and his athletes just did

00:04:10.600 phenomenally he they were breaking many records and he became known as the father of plyometrics

00:04:16.940 his work is really great helps people really improve their sprinting one problem with this method

00:04:23.020 is he had athletes jumping off the box as high as 1.5 meters or 60 inches and it's tough to do that

00:04:32.240 movement properly so if you're if you don't land correctly or the ankle caves in a little bit or the

00:04:38.740 knee caves the knee tends to follow if the ankle caves in a little bit structural damage can start to

00:04:44.080 occur so athletes really need to have good movement patterns to do these drills if we think about the

00:04:50.360 kettlebell swing it looks a lot like the jump our feet are in a position our butt goes back and we look

00:04:57.840 like we're going to jump and when we throw the kettlebell back between our legs we're reversing force

00:05:04.840 similar to how a shock jump would be so we're it's instead of having to land on the ground and then

00:05:11.000 reverse the force we're doing it with the kettlebell so our legs can be in a good position we don't have

00:05:16.560 to find the ground and to land properly so i think it's a lot safer movement and it does reverse a lot

00:05:23.160 of force so pavel was actually tested with brandon hetzler on a force plate he could generate about

00:05:29.000 400 pounds of force on the downswing of this kettlebell swing so reversing that much force i think is where

00:05:36.060 the magic happens neurologically for the kettlebell swing so we would prime our neurological systems to

00:05:43.420 react quickly and you know we're really it's the stretch reflex that's doing it but it's been shown

00:05:50.160 many times to increase vertical jump in athletes especially like volleyball players a study done by

00:05:55.880 fabio zonen he did it with ballerinas these were pretty good ballerinas these were almost elite

00:06:01.500 ballerinas and he had them do an eight-week course on using kettlebells so simple and sinister as you

00:06:06.600 mentioned and what they found was that they improved their ballet jumps which is fascinating to me because

00:06:13.060 a ballet jump looks nothing like a kettlebell swing thank goodness um and you know i think it's part of

00:06:20.160 that that it's that neurological connection like we're we're creating uh we're rebounding quicker

00:06:25.720 more powerfully when we do our kettlebell swings so i think it's a really good tool for building

00:06:31.000 explosive strength and then we also see it working really well for power lifting movements like the

00:06:35.020 deadlift like you mentioned there have been many times people train for a kettlebell event

00:06:39.520 and then they come back afterward and lift a lot more in their deadlift even though they haven't trained

00:06:44.500 their deadlift at all so it's you know and the pattern looks very similar in a deadlift

00:06:50.040 and the kettlebell swing so the top of the deadlift looks pretty much exactly like a kettlebell swing

00:06:55.580 so it's a really effective exercise it's simple i don't think the kettlebell itself has magical

00:07:01.500 properties it's just very simple and portable one thing i noticed too about what i what i liked about

00:07:05.640 the simple and sinister program it was hard but it didn't feel like it beat me up exactly and i think

00:07:10.080 that's one of you know the hallmarks of and one of the reasons i wanted to really work with pavel is

00:07:14.320 the programs keep me healthy and just always ready he works with a lot of special forces and

00:07:20.180 you know they can't say i can't i can't go today because my legs are sore from squats you know his

00:07:26.720 programs are always built where you have some left in the tank and you can train again the next day

00:07:31.080 be healthy so let me say someone wanted to get the this benefit you mentioned you know pavel was able

00:07:35.760 to generate 400 pounds of force on the backswing like how heavy of a kettlebell do you need to use

00:07:41.000 to get that or does it matter yeah excellent question so yeah there's a couple ways we can do this i mean

00:07:45.540 one if we think about setting a kettlebell on our foot we can handle that if we drop it on our foot

00:07:51.420 you know that's going to really do some damage but if we throw it on our foot it becomes even more

00:07:56.060 damaging so usually what we do with a kettlebell swing is we we pop the kettlebell up in the air

00:08:01.500 it floats and then it falls back down so with that we're probably not generating 400 pounds of force on

00:08:07.600 the backswing but if we actively throw it down which is called an over speed eccentric that's where we can

00:08:13.840 generate a lot more force so i think pavel did that with a 32 kilogram but you know for the most part

00:08:19.020 that's 70 pounds you know 24 kilogram 50 54 pounds works quite well you can generate a lot of force

00:08:26.280 you know with a kettlebell that doesn't seem that big so for someone who's just starting out with a

00:08:31.480 kettlebell what weight do you recommend they get yeah the old recommendations were sort of a 16 kilogram

00:08:36.920 for men and you know eventually working up to a 24 kilogram and maybe an 8 or 12 kilogram for for

00:08:43.240 women and then working up to a 12 or 16 let's talk about just training in general because you've

00:08:47.780 written a lot over at breaking muscle about not just kettlebell training but also just training in

00:08:53.260 general let's talk about beginning training whether you're doing kettlebell or barbell training or

00:08:58.720 whatever else what do you see are the biggest mistakes beginners make when they're first starting

00:09:04.460 out with any sort of strength training program first of all i like that you use the word training i think

00:09:09.700 you know one mistake i see is people call it a workout and you know there's this idea that i need

00:09:15.180 to suffer i need to work out like somehow everything needs to be spent after training

00:09:20.320 and i think that idea that we need to suffer in the gym there's probably some usefulness to

00:09:26.160 suffering and you need to you know put some energy into it but that's not our end goal and i think

00:09:31.540 sometimes you know we almost become addicted to that suffering and you know i have to go to the gym and

00:09:36.740 get this spent feeling and i think sometimes you know it's kind of a harsh statement but feelings

00:09:43.700 don't matter your feelings don't matter in the gym you know following a good protocol is what matters

00:09:48.560 and like you said the simple and sinister there's many days it's like oh this is it and you know you're

00:09:55.380 done in 15 minutes and it's that's all you need to do today and you don't have to feel spent so i think

00:10:01.400 part of it is just following a good protocol you know doing a training session it's it's training

00:10:06.100 the skills in each session and then i think thinking of each rep as a an opportunity to find

00:10:12.760 perfection you're always searching for that perfect rep i think those are important things for beginners

00:10:17.700 to keep in mind well going back i'm going to kind of backtrack here because the question just came to

00:10:21.960 my mind let's say you are doing barbell training like that's what i do i do uh press squat deadlift

00:10:29.000 bench press could i include it like a simple and sinister routine like in all my off days or would

00:10:35.380 that be too much i think that you know the big thing is you know depending on how much volume you're

00:10:40.300 doing on the you know the other exercises i would definitely think you add it but if you're if you're

00:10:45.660 doing super high volume with those you're going to need the recovery for those exercises so we but we

00:10:50.620 do often build a simple and sinister type program for power lifters i think the turkish get up is one of

00:10:56.940 the best ways to protect your shoulder to sort of pre-habilitate your shoulder to keep it strong and

00:11:03.300 safe especially if you're doing a lot of bench press that that having a kettlebell overhead that's

00:11:09.000 moving all around is great for building those those extra muscles around there the swing is going to

00:11:14.820 really help your deadlift so i i think those it really fits well for a power lifting type of program

00:11:20.420 before we got on the show you know i was mentioning that i i just did my first weight lifting

00:11:24.540 competition as power lifting sort of my thing i really enjoy it i did starting strength uh the

00:11:29.620 three by five routine that i've advanced on to more intermediate and advanced programs because my

00:11:34.240 linear progression stopped so i had to adjust my training but you besides uh kettlebell stuff pavel

00:11:39.980 also does barbell programming can you talk a little bit about that because i don't think a lot of people

00:11:44.120 know that oh yeah yeah and actually a lot of his original work in the old muscle medias in the old

00:11:50.140 um iron mind you know were barbell type programs so he he really you know it the tool is not

00:11:56.620 important i mean he ended up popularizing kettlebells because you know that was unique to people and you

00:12:01.820 know everybody wanted to search him out for that but yeah his um barbell programs are excellent he's

00:12:07.280 worked on you know he's had these very simple principles over the years but he's looked at

00:12:13.380 the old soviet systems and put these principles into what they used to do and there's some you know

00:12:19.600 simple rules involved with that and you know one of them is basically waiving the volume and waiving

00:12:29.140 the intensity so every basically we can think of it as sort of a fractal pattern so every you know

00:12:37.020 month you're going one month a little more volume the next month a little less and the third month

00:12:43.260 sort of in between so you're always waiving how many uh reps you're doing basically for the month

00:12:49.120 uh within the month each week you waive the volume so some weeks you know it's it's high medium or low

00:12:55.720 and then within the week itself you're waiving the volume too you've got a heavy day medium day

00:13:00.680 light day and you know what he found that these old the soviet system was incredible in how much they

00:13:07.380 measured everything they measured every training sessions and medeva medev i sorry i can't pronounce

00:13:13.480 his name properly but he you know he wrote over 300 articles on the soviet type training program so

00:13:19.840 pavel went through these and came up with these uh basic ideas and one was that waiving the volume and

00:13:27.540 the intensity every week and and these things don't always go together so i think ripito's program is

00:13:34.460 really good but if you think about it's a very linear program that on week one you know you're

00:13:39.660 working with five reps of a lighter weight week two a little uh heavier weight but fewer reps and so

00:13:46.760 everything goes in a straight line pattern where this will wave and your volume and your intensity

00:13:53.500 aren't coupled together they're not correlated that some weeks you're doing high intensity uh heavier weight

00:14:00.240 but also higher volume and other weeks you might be doing low of both of those so

00:14:04.760 they're they're completely uncoupled from each other so that it's a really neat

00:14:08.580 system and he'll have a he has a seminar that he does called plan strong but uh he'll have a book

00:14:15.260 coming out soon on that system so i mean what's the benefit of having those sort of undulations

00:14:21.920 right in volume and intensity yeah i think one i mean for me and for the people i've trained it

00:14:30.460 really keeps people healthy that you know we're not the kind of the the old idea of you know just

00:14:37.860 keep uh go heavier go heavier heavier yet and then get injured there's a mentality of that this this is

00:14:44.600 ways to load so if you follow the program you're automatically going to get you know rest weeks and

00:14:49.760 you know easier weeks involved so i see athletes being healthier but i also see some pretty incredible

00:14:56.420 strength gains we had the kettlebell level two sort of certification the big strength exercise

00:15:02.360 is a press with a kettlebell that's half your body weight and um it's it's a pretty tough thing to do and

00:15:09.720 it's uh many people can't do it we put a bunch of people on this program and every one of them did it

00:15:16.540 and it's it's pretty amazing how strong people get and we've done it with some olympic lifters and

00:15:21.180 they've you know greatly improved their performance their strength performance in their olympic lifting

00:15:26.220 so i think you know it keeps people healthy and then it also works quite well to get them stronger

00:15:30.940 right and so is this a program this plan strong program is this something that is good for beginners

00:15:37.580 and intermediates like it's for any you know strength level yeah and i think you know in general

00:15:43.320 this sort of waving the load is kind of a useful idea that you you know have light medium heavy days

00:15:49.460 of course the volume will change so if you're you know a athlete that's new you might need not need

00:15:54.880 as much volume you know at the beginning than an elite athlete so you know i think that's probably

00:15:59.960 where the biggest difference is but yeah it could certainly be used for beginners as well okay we'll

00:16:04.600 we'll put some links on the site where people can find out more information about this when we publish

00:16:08.220 our show notes so you've written a lot for breaking muscle it's one of my go-to strength and conditioning

00:16:14.000 sites it's a lot of in-depth content over a variety of different topics one article that stuck out to me

00:16:19.440 is you talk about the importance of taking into consideration individual differences when deciding on a

00:16:25.420 training program or even just like the lifts you use what are some of those differences people need to

00:16:29.700 consider when they start a training program you know i think this part of this is just how to read

00:16:36.280 science i think you know there's an article that came out a few weeks ago about hit training that

00:16:41.880 you may have seen and basically talked about you know the headlines were about hit uh high intensity

00:16:46.920 interval training increasing longevity and i saw this headline over and over again so i went to the

00:16:53.320 research and they had 27 people and three different protocols so nine people were on the hit protocol

00:16:59.620 and what they found they these people increased their mitochondrial density and you know this is

00:17:06.060 associated with aging the more mitochondria we have the you know the better we age but you know they

00:17:11.200 didn't actually measure longevity in these people so sometimes we read these research articles and we

00:17:15.640 think oh i need to go do hit training and you know i i keep some certain questions in mind as i as i look at

00:17:23.200 research and i think everybody needs to do this is first of all look at the sample and ask you know how

00:17:29.640 similar is it to me if if you're looking to find something useful for you then make sure the sample

00:17:35.280 is the same so if if i'm looking at a nutrition study and you know they found this new substance

00:17:41.620 you know helps people lose weight are they looking at an obese sample and you know i'm not obese or you

00:17:47.700 know the other way around you know so try to make sure that the sample is similar to you

00:17:51.500 another thing i do when i look at you know science and research protocols are the cost involved

00:17:57.020 you know if i you know green tea and fish oil are you know constantly in the news as being good for

00:18:03.880 me i can pretty simply add that at a very little cost to me so it's not going to hurt me to add that to

00:18:09.840 my my plan but if i you know changing my whole training system you know that's going to be a little

00:18:15.440 bit more cost so i always think about the cost involved in testing things out and then i need to ask

00:18:20.300 the question how i know whether it works or not so i need to measure things individually we all have

00:18:25.680 to be our own scientists we have to be our own coach and you know so i need to figure out if it worked

00:18:31.960 for me and i think that's the important part and how it works for you as an individual so measure and

00:18:38.820 check to see if it works i think is another important part yeah i think that you just touched on a thing

00:18:44.880 that i think a lot of beginners make particularly is um they'll start a program and then they'll

00:18:50.040 read some study or some article about here's this great program that has all these great results and

00:18:54.240 so they immediately jump ship to this new program they start doing that and they read another thing

00:18:59.020 and they do they jump ship and like they never allow themselves to see if the program they're doing

00:19:04.800 is actually working i know i did that a lot before i started you know getting really consistent with my

00:19:10.080 training and i the result was like i didn't have really good results yeah yeah well it's easy to do

00:19:16.680 that i do that too i love reading new programs it's but it's that it's being patient like i have

00:19:22.200 to finish this 12-week program out where i will never know if it worked or not so yeah it's it's

00:19:27.660 it's fun looking at all these different types of programs another article that you've written about

00:19:32.240 that really stuck out to me because it kind of syncs up with our spirit we have here the art of

00:19:36.380 manliness you had this article about live like it's 1940 or train like it's 1940 it was just all

00:19:41.680 about incorporating more movement throughout your day can you talk us a little bit through how you

00:19:46.580 know we should all be living like 1940s dads or men yeah yeah and i mean that's why i love love what

00:19:52.940 you guys do too and and you know the paleo idea sounds great to me but i don't hunt my food and

00:19:58.580 you know i don't have a way to do that so i thought 1940s might be a little simpler place to go but you

00:20:04.600 know i like in the airport or you know even at work i'm on the fourth floor i never try to take the

00:20:09.980 elevator i you know the stairs are there for me you know as a perfectly good opportunity so i try

00:20:15.540 to imagine those things don't exist i have a push mower a wheel you know is not motorized it's just

00:20:20.600 got the little thing that spins around i kind of like using that you know there's all of these

00:20:25.460 conveniences but you know if i try to avoid the conveniences i'll get a lot more exercise in my life

00:20:31.300 and you know i think that's you know where i can add those little benefits they'll add they'll pay off

00:20:36.120 a lot more in the end of the day you know and even even right now like i'm sure many of the your

00:20:41.740 guests have standing desk and you know it keeps me more mobile during the day or you know i think you

00:20:47.300 use a standing desk as well you know and so just those little things add up quite a bit i'm also

00:20:52.280 doing you know like calf stretching right now as i stand here i'm stretching my calves out you know kind

00:20:57.720 of uh doing different things you know working on my mobility every once in a while putting my foot up

00:21:02.600 on a stool you know the more we can do throughout the day it doesn't all have to be at the training

00:21:06.900 session i think those things are are quite important yeah the the real mower i have one of

00:21:11.880 those that thing is like a prowler sled it's an hour-long prowler sled session yeah yeah it's it's

00:21:18.260 you know and honestly like i love it because i can then just you know put my headphones in and listen

00:21:22.780 to a podcast if i had a motorized one i i couldn't do that so i get a lot more uh listening to

00:21:27.780 your podcast and by by playing with the wheel mower well i appreciate that and the other thing too

00:21:31.960 it cuts your grass better i feel like yeah because it it cuts it like scissors it doesn't just chop it

00:21:36.440 we've written an article about that so if any of you are interested in the push reel mower i think

00:21:39.700 the picture you had on breaking muscle is the one that i have yeah so fun stuff so just move more

00:21:44.040 throughout the day stand up take a walk inconvenience yourself a little bit to get a little bit more

00:21:48.880 movement because that little little things add up most definitely yeah park the car i mean these

00:21:53.520 are commonly known things and park the car far away as much as possible and you know that i love

00:21:59.220 airports i mean the stairs are i love your little challenges that you have you know you have

00:22:04.160 different you know articles about challenging yourself i feel if i can't carry my bags up

00:22:08.540 staircases at airports then you know i that's one of my you know markers i need to be able to do that so

00:22:15.720 my wife laughs at me but i always take the stairs and always carry the bags up the stairs so it's you

00:22:21.980 know you need to do those challenges we've had a guest on the show named walker lamond he wrote a book

00:22:25.700 called rules for my unborn son and one of his rules was no wheelie luggage and implying this

00:22:31.700 sort of you know live like it's 1940 i mean you can apply this to diet as well you know because back

00:22:35.920 then i know my grandfather grew up on a farm so it was a lot of bacon and eggs in the morning oatmeal

00:22:41.600 just like whole foods and they didn't eat a lot like our portions just gotten out of control as a

00:22:46.460 consequence because he ate like that like he lived a relatively healthy life i mean he lived to be almost

00:22:51.120 101 i'm sure genetics had a lot to do with that but i'm sure lifestyle helped as well yeah yeah

00:22:56.520 yeah we can certainly i i agree with that too for eating i i try to eat as little processed food as

00:23:02.840 possible you know when i can have the simple ingredients the better it is fitness doesn't

00:23:07.000 have to be difficult i oftentimes feel like we complicate things because it makes us feel like

00:23:10.320 we're doing something but when you just just eat good foods not too much move regularly exercise

00:23:16.100 you're going to be good yep most definitely so let's shift over um to how you've incorporated

00:23:21.940 your academic career as a psychologist to your training i'm curious how has your work there with

00:23:27.580 psychology influenced the way you train or coach you know they're they're really similar you know i

00:23:33.640 don't really see it being very different you know what i do with my students you know i have to

00:23:37.700 challenge them through their work and you know the same thing with coaching like i you know i try to

00:23:43.160 develop everyone to be their own coach you know my my goal is to give you everything i've got all my

00:23:48.560 information and you become your own coach and you know you'll eventually like with my students the

00:23:53.860 same thing you'll have all my knowledge you need to to be able to teach people how to do this as well

00:23:58.240 so you know i think coaching you know pushing people to do things that are uncomfortable is is really

00:24:04.180 important you know and i try to to role model that if i'm telling you to go do something i better be

00:24:10.600 doing it myself so i really have to push myself in both areas how much do you think training is

00:24:17.420 psychological i've noticed in my i think we were talking about this before we got on the show like

00:24:20.780 on the line is that my experience there's been days where i've there's a weight i've lifted easily

00:24:25.920 before and then i come in and then it just i can't do it and like i know it's mental and i had it's

00:24:32.760 happened to me you know the other week had a 485 pound deadlift my training session and i've done

00:24:37.240 that before easy got there to the bar put my hands on it started pulling like it just wouldn't come

00:24:41.720 off the bar and i texted my coach i have an online coach and i said i can't get this he's like no

00:24:46.360 it's all mental get in there and do it and like i went in there and i did it and it was fine so i

00:24:51.460 mean how much do you think training or physical effort is a matter of psychology it's funny i don't

00:24:56.760 really think about it that way but you're exactly right i mean it is very mental you know i put in the

00:25:01.480 work like i like i said earlier feelings don't matter in your training you know that you like

00:25:06.420 you did you followed your coach's protocol and you didn't get it you know like what i would do in

00:25:12.080 that situation too is just you know come back in a few minutes you might have to you know especially

00:25:16.240 for deadlifting might have to amp yourself up a little bit you know move around a little bit more

00:25:20.880 and listen to music whatever it is but you know you just do your reps and you you go forward i do think

00:25:26.920 the psychology can be a real detriment like if you would have you know started having internal talk

00:25:31.700 of uh i'll never get to it i'm terrible i've i used to be able to do this i can't you know that

00:25:36.940 type of thing is is you know what gets people unmotivated and not in the gym anymore so i think

00:25:42.260 those things are really important we don't allow a lot of uh you know negative talk and i think just

00:25:47.840 you know it's not about being positive like oh i'm the greatest either it's it's sort of just being

00:25:52.120 realistic like okay that didn't go off the ground give me a few more minutes you know and not judging

00:25:56.040 it so much so you don't make it a catastrophe nor are you being pollyannish and saying you know

00:26:01.300 i'm the best and you know even though that and that's not true at the moment that's good advice

00:26:05.400 for overcoming setbacks whether it's a plateau or an injury like don't don't start wallowing in the

00:26:11.340 negative self-talk yeah yeah most definitely and it's a learning experience too like i mean it sounds

00:26:16.260 like you learned from that experience quite well that you know it's i contacted my coach and he's just

00:26:21.000 told me to do this and so you learned like hey if i give a few more minutes rest maybe i didn't have

00:26:25.760 enough rest between that set and the one before it or you know some days i'm not going to be

00:26:30.140 mentally there but physically i can still perform this you know so whatever it is you have to do

00:26:35.520 that after action review and you know figure out what can i learn from this and you know failure is

00:26:40.940 one of the best teachers so we really need to learn from when we don't do things right one article

00:26:45.520 that you wrote for breaking muscle kind of combined psychology and training was his idea of the placebo

00:26:50.160 principle in performance can you talk a little bit about that because i thought that was

00:26:53.740 really interesting i've been fascinated about the about the placebo effect for years and you know

00:26:59.060 so with performance exactly like in 1972 they did one of the first studies on steroid placebo use

00:27:07.860 and they gave this group of power lifters you know i think it was they did like five or six weeks

00:27:13.600 of training and then you know after that they said you know we're going to give some of you

00:27:17.160 steroids and see how that improves your performance they didn't give anyone steroids but the group that

00:27:22.360 thought they did had a big improvement in performance and you know this placebo effect

00:27:28.080 you know with thinking about strength improvement has happened over and over again it's also happened

00:27:32.660 with endurance athletes so you give runners super oxygenated water or which is just plain water as a

00:27:38.920 placebo effect they run eight percent faster you give people amino acids telling them it's going to

00:27:44.980 improve their strength they get stroke 20 stronger it's the mind is very powerful in in how it improves

00:27:52.080 performance a lot of antidepressants the effect of antidepressants is often thought to be about 50 percent

00:27:58.620 placebo effect so people start taking a pill and they think it's making them better and we see many people

00:28:04.680 who are depressed like have this immediate gain like i feel less depressed but it takes about four weeks

00:28:09.980 for an antidepressant to kick in so there's no way that it you know it's working that fast it's all

00:28:14.720 it's all placebo effect yeah it made me think about when those the that ted talk about i think it was

00:28:20.400 some that her last name is cuddy she talks about like raising your hands in the air and increases

00:28:24.620 testosterone you should do that before a big and i've noticed a lot of people doing that like you

00:28:29.480 know when they like and like but there's research that's come out recently kind of objecting that

00:28:33.180 saying that maybe it's not acute like the effect isn't as cute as we think it is but i think it's still

00:28:37.440 like if you think like raising your hands in your air is going to give you a testosterone boost

00:28:41.440 so you can be you know stronger or more confident like it still works why not do it yeah i think that

00:28:47.340 one study you know there's been some you know they haven't been able to replicate the one about your

00:28:51.420 arms in the air but what you said is if you believe it then it will you know have that effect on

00:28:57.640 testosterone so it's it's part of that believing that you know sometimes purchase supplements and you know

00:29:01.940 i know i'm probably buying into the placebo effect like if that if that works then that's great like

00:29:07.360 i don't you know it's these super labels like you know all these things that the supplement

00:29:11.860 industry pushes it's like hey if it's helping me placebo effect or whatever it is i think that's

00:29:16.920 that's great yeah i think it's it's it's really fascinating to me let's talk about a little more

00:29:21.800 in depth about your your academic work i i saw in your cv that you you focus on anxiety disorders

00:29:28.060 it's kind of been one of your things i'm curious like what constitutes an anxiety disorder like i'm sure

00:29:32.180 some people have felt you know anxiety at some point in their lives but like what does it feel like for

00:29:35.960 someone who has an anxiety disorder i mean we have to have anxiety other it's a signal that something's

00:29:40.420 wrong so each of us has a certain amount of anxiety if we don't then we have a disorder on the other

00:29:46.200 side of things but you know for people with anxiety disorders it's really got to cause some functional

00:29:50.840 impairments in their lives so you know where many of us are afraid to present in public places or you

00:29:58.060 know things like that that's that's normal but if you can't go to work or you can't ask people out on

00:30:03.100 dates because you've got so much social anxiety then it becomes more of a disorder and a problem

00:30:08.780 so i think that's you know that's the big difference so it's it's we're on the spectrum

00:30:13.060 of anxiety but you know the people at the extreme end you know are the ones that just can't perform

00:30:17.960 in life anymore and missing out on on things that they would like to do so i'm sure you know people

00:30:23.080 who are listening who have an anxiety disorder probably need to see a professional but i mean i'm

00:30:26.900 curious in your within your research and your career are there proactive steps that you've

00:30:31.480 found that people can start taking that are small but actually have an immediate effect to mitigate

00:30:36.580 that anxiety disorder i have never felt so powerful in my life as when i treat people with anxiety

00:30:41.740 disorder because you see people just change their lives completely and you know it's really very

00:30:47.880 simple it's the idea of you have to face your fears and you know not all at once and not necessarily

00:30:54.140 have to you know do it once but you know you figure out the exact fear and expose yourself in

00:30:59.720 incremental doses and this you know goes for people who are functionally impaired you know

00:31:04.140 versus you know if you're just afraid to present at work or ask somebody out on a date you know for

00:31:08.460 people with social anxiety we often you know start them with small tasks like giving a speech just to

00:31:14.380 me or somebody they trust and then we move them up to talking to random people at the grocery store

00:31:18.980 it depends what they fear like if they fear making a fool out of themselves that's what we have to do with

00:31:25.140 them we have to make a fool out of themselves so you know one of the things we do at the the store

00:31:28.880 is we have them go up to a random person and say don't i know you from someplace and they just have

00:31:33.520 to you know no i think i know you and they have to sit and have a conversation where the person's

00:31:37.960 looking at them strangely like no i don't know you please leave me alone and you know after a while

00:31:43.580 people doing this normal everyday things just don't seem so bad you know the more we put people

00:31:48.780 into extreme situations the everyday anxiety isn't so bad you know so for somebody with social

00:31:54.540 anxiety you know one of the big things we often do is we have them you know take a bunch of caffeine

00:31:59.280 and then go do karaoke and if you can do that you can handle doing a presentation at work you can

00:32:05.460 handle asking somebody on a date you can handle you know those types of things so you know we build

00:32:09.980 up to it it's like training we don't start you off at a power lifting competition you know we'll start

00:32:14.780 you off with you know some you know technique type things and you know then build you up from there

00:32:19.680 so it's it's it's fascinating and fun to me because people's lives change and it's just such a simple

00:32:26.100 thing for me to do it's a very simple technique and you know big changes come from it i mean it sounds

00:32:31.420 like these techniques can also work for people who are experiencing run-of-the-mill anxiety right to

00:32:35.700 stay cool calm and collected for example they have to give a presentation in front of a large audience

00:32:40.140 or even performing like in sports or something like that you can basically put yourself in

00:32:45.840 situations that are uncomfortable before you actually get to the events you're not as anxious

00:32:49.500 when you actually do the real thing most most definitely and and i think you know trying to do

00:32:54.680 the the events are great but then you know if you can amp it up you know like we've had people who are

00:33:00.220 functioning really well and you know just afraid to present you know io of a big company he was afraid

00:33:06.460 to present so we had him practicing by drinking caffeine uh sitting in a sauna presenting you know

00:33:11.880 so he had all the worst possible symptoms of anxiety and then when he's in the regular boardroom

00:33:17.240 it was it was nothing so you know i think pushing yourself in practice so that you perform really well

00:33:24.880 in in when you're actually trying to so doing a like it's it's like how the navy seals train i mean

00:33:30.160 they're they're the anxiety experts they push people really hard in training and then you know they

00:33:35.880 perform to their their level of training that they know they can handle things because they've done

00:33:40.520 these extreme type of training well hey craig this has been a great conversation we've covered a broad

00:33:44.720 range of topics here but where can people learn more about your work i'm not really good at this

00:33:48.860 this online presence type of thing but you know like you said people can find my articles at strong

00:33:53.320 first or breaking muscle.com if your people are ever in atlanta we've got a intentional

00:33:58.640 community we all train outside in in our courage corner uh gym with kettlebells and and barbells

00:34:05.840 so anybody can come that you can look at armorbuilding.com and if anybody wants to come do research with me

00:34:13.140 that our address there is markerlab.org but yeah i'd love to talk to anybody who wants to talk to me

00:34:21.200 fantastic well craig marker thank you so much for your time it's been a pleasure thank you so much

00:34:24.920 brett i love your show and i greatly appreciate being on it my guest it was craig marker he is a

00:34:29.740 strong first kettlebell coach you can find more information about his work at craigmarker.com you

00:34:35.300 see a lot of his content that he's written at breakingmuscle.com just search for craig marker

00:34:39.420 there and you can find more information about kettlebell training at strongfirst.com also check

00:34:44.240 out our show notes at aom.is slash marker where you find links to resources where you can delve deeper

00:34:48.940 into this topic well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips

00:34:57.160 and advice make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com if you

00:35:01.040 enjoy the show and i've gotten something out of it over the years i'd appreciate if you give us you

00:35:04.300 take two minutes give us review on itunes or stitcher really helps that a lot as always thank

00:35:08.460 you for your continued support until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay manly

00:35:18.940 forед mckay telling you to stay manly

The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

#295： Kettlebells and the Psychology of Training

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