The Art of Manliness - #303： The Philosphy of Frugality

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:18.720 When most people think of frugality, they think of it primarily as a way to reduce spending so

00:00:22.440 they can do things like pay off debt or save for a goal like retirement or a down payment on a home.

00:00:26.640 It's seen as a personal finance tactic with purely utilitarian ends.

00:00:30.000 But for philosophers and theologians going back all the way to ancient Greece,

00:00:33.700 frugality was seen as an essential virtue in order to develop wisdom and true happiness.

00:00:38.040 Today on the show, I talked to Emreys Westacott, the author of the book The Wisdom of Frugality,

00:00:42.360 about the philosophical history of penny-pinching.

00:00:44.520 We begin our conversation discussing what philosophers mean by frugality

00:00:47.320 and the various philosophical schools that it gave frugality premacy.

00:00:50.780 We then go to summarize the arguments as to why frugality makes people wiser and happier,

00:00:54.900 the counter-arguments to frugality as a virtue,

00:00:57.020 and why the ideal of frugality changes based on circumstances

00:01:00.220 and why living frugally is harder to do today than in times past.

00:01:04.060 This show provides a nuanced look at a much-praised virtue

00:01:06.580 and will leave you mulling over how, why, and to what extent to strive for it in your own life.

00:01:10.760 After the show's over, check out the show notes at aom.is slash frugal.

00:01:19.180 Emreys Westacott, welcome to the show.

00:01:21.640 I'm glad to be here.

00:01:22.300 So you are a professor of philosophy and you've written a book called The Wisdom of Frugality

00:01:27.200 and it's all about frugality.

00:01:29.780 This sort of penny-pitching or, you know, doing things to save money, being resourceful.

00:01:34.200 I'm curious, what's a philosophy professor doing writing a book about frugality?

00:01:39.340 Well, I could make jokes there about my salary, I guess, couldn't I?

00:01:41.900 But it's actually about more than frugality.

00:01:45.860 It's about frugality and simple living.

00:01:47.480 I started writing the book because I was intrigued by the question,

00:01:52.060 why do we consider frugality a virtue?

00:01:55.140 Because it has been considered a virtue from ancient times all the way through Ben Franklin to today.

00:02:00.600 And I actually got interested in the question because I was teaching an evening class

00:02:04.820 called Tight Watery or The Good Life on a Dollar a Day.

00:02:08.100 It was a kind of honors class at Alfred University where I work.

00:02:10.960 Although there were some sort of amusing parts to it,

00:02:14.040 like, you know, students learning how to cut each other's hair

00:02:16.720 and having a class banquet for $10 made entirely of Depression-era recipes,

00:02:22.040 there was actually quite a lot of philosophy in it.

00:02:24.020 We read Epicurus and we read Thoreau and we read the Stoics

00:02:27.600 and some contemporary critics of consumerism and this sort of thing.

00:02:32.440 And that got me really thinking on these questions.

00:02:34.440 But when I started writing about why we should consider frugality a virtue

00:02:39.160 or why philosophers have considered frugality a virtue,

00:02:41.900 I found it was very difficult to separate frugality from simple living in general.

00:02:46.840 And so the topic of the book became broader.

00:02:49.600 Okay. So, as you mentioned, philosophers have been thinking about this idea of frugality,

00:02:55.060 simple living, going all the way back to Plato and Socrates.

00:02:59.700 So, when they talked about it, frugality or simple living,

00:03:03.640 like, what exactly do they mean?

00:03:05.760 Because I think the way we describe it, in a lot of ways it's probably the same today,

00:03:09.720 but I'm sure they had some different implications for that word back then.

00:03:14.780 I think that there's one aspect of frugality that has remained constant for a long time

00:03:20.120 from Plato to Ben Franklin and today.

00:03:23.620 And that is the idea of living frugally, meaning being fiscally prudent,

00:03:28.180 living within your means, not getting into debt,

00:03:30.560 not indulging in gross extravagances, which are going to land you in trouble later on.

00:03:34.500 And, you know, most philosophers would advocate being fiscally prudent,

00:03:40.940 but then most financial advisors will too, most people with common sense would.

00:03:45.320 And in a way, although that's the first thing people think of,

00:03:47.920 perhaps, when they think about frugality, it may be the least interesting aspect.

00:03:53.320 What's more interesting is where you're talking about frugality and simple living

00:03:57.540 in answer to the question, what kind of life should I lead?

00:04:02.500 And, you know, for anyone who's read Plato's Republic,

00:04:05.240 you'd remember that he says there that we're talking here, he says,

00:04:08.400 about the most important question of all, which is how we ought to live.

00:04:12.060 And so really it's a question about lifestyle and the choices you make.

00:04:15.680 And one kind of lifestyle is to live simply in the sense of not just of staying with any means,

00:04:24.180 but living cheaply, enjoying simple pleasures, being self-sufficient,

00:04:28.940 perhaps practicing a certain amount of self-denial, perhaps staying close to nature.

00:04:34.580 And all those senses, in the first chapter of the book,

00:04:37.420 I look at many senses of the word, many senses of the concept of simple living.

00:04:42.900 And I think that they kind of form a family or a cluster

00:04:46.860 that tend to hang together in a lot of people's mind.

00:04:49.280 Yeah, what I thought was surprising as you went back through the history

00:04:52.460 of the philosophy of simple living and frugality,

00:04:55.000 is that everyone, even thousands of years ago,

00:04:58.000 were pining for this age when things were simpler, right?

00:05:02.600 We think that's sort of a new thing, but like, no,

00:05:04.760 even the ancient Greeks were looking for that idyllic age.

00:05:08.800 Yeah, as they say, nostalgia is not what it used to be, right?

00:05:11.520 Yeah, it's an interesting thing that back two and a half thousand years ago,

00:05:15.920 people were looking back to a time when people were more honest,

00:05:20.100 they lived more simply, closer to the earth,

00:05:22.480 they were less pretentious, less affected,

00:05:25.200 less bothered about material possessions, luxury and extravagance,

00:05:28.740 and that kind of thing.

00:05:29.820 So, as they say, you know, the more things change,

00:05:32.300 the more things remain the same.

00:05:33.820 So are there any schools of philosophy

00:05:35.560 that have particularly pushed frugality and simple living as a way of life?

00:05:40.160 Yes, and I think it's important to mention here that in ancient times,

00:05:44.740 particularly we're talking here largely about Western philosophy,

00:05:48.360 in Western philosophy you have the Greeks and the Romans,

00:05:51.480 and for them philosophy was very much a matter of philosophizing about life.

00:05:56.080 The central question was how should we live?

00:05:58.500 What are the best lifestyles?

00:05:59.900 And if you joined a philosophical school like the Stoics or the Cynics

00:06:04.680 or something like that,

00:06:05.960 then it wasn't just a matter of holding certain beliefs,

00:06:08.320 you would practice certain practices.

00:06:10.160 You'd talk the talk and walk the walk.

00:06:12.860 Probably the first school that really advocated frugality in a big way

00:06:16.380 was the Cynics, represented by people like Diogenes,

00:06:20.060 who famously lived in a barrel and with virtually no material possessions.

00:06:25.100 There were the Epicureans,

00:06:26.720 who they were more self-indulgent than the Cynics,

00:06:30.740 but still they lived simply.

00:06:32.220 They greatly valued living communally, friendship,

00:06:36.340 just having simple meals with good friends,

00:06:38.780 and staying out of business like politics, which just makes you depressed.

00:06:43.360 Then the Stoics later on, particularly the Roman Stoics, 0.98

00:06:46.480 also very much advocated simple living and frugality

00:06:51.020 as a way of toughening yourself to prepare for adversity,

00:06:54.640 as a way of avoiding disappointment and that sort of thing.

00:06:58.000 And then this continued on even throughout Western history,

00:07:01.260 like Rousseau at the Enlightenment era

00:07:03.200 really hit this simple living idea hard.

00:07:05.840 Right.

00:07:06.600 Now, Rousseau is not necessarily representative of the Enlightenment.

00:07:10.820 He's a little bit more representative of Romanticism

00:07:12.980 because he particularly opposes what is natural

00:07:16.580 with what is the result of civilization.

00:07:19.920 And he tends to be very critical of the so-called fruits

00:07:23.960 and benefits of civilization and thinks that we need to

00:07:27.040 kind of get back to nature to some extent.

00:07:29.060 Of course, Thoreau is in that tradition too,

00:07:32.260 along with a lot of other Romantic writers.

00:07:34.780 So, yeah, right up to the present day,

00:07:37.080 and you've got Edward Abbey,

00:07:39.000 and you've got plenty of people today

00:07:41.420 who also advocate in one way or another

00:07:43.800 a more simple lifestyle,

00:07:45.900 a kind of movement back to nature.

00:07:48.100 And you see it in all aspects of life,

00:07:49.880 in the houses people live in,

00:07:51.500 in the kind of food they eat,

00:07:52.940 in the kind of work they do,

00:07:54.620 the clothes they wear.

00:07:56.060 So, throughout Western history,

00:07:57.720 frugality has been pushed.

00:07:59.020 And the reason why is because

00:08:00.100 a lot of philosophers viewed luxury

00:08:02.340 and extravagance as moral failings.

00:08:05.700 And it's something to avoid.

00:08:06.680 Why is extravagance and luxury

00:08:08.600 viewed as something that can hurt the soul?

00:08:11.140 Yeah, I think that it's a very interesting question, that.

00:08:14.200 And I think that one reason is that it's associated,

00:08:20.060 perhaps, with luxury is associated with softness.

00:08:22.720 In the book, I mentioned the Spartans,

00:08:25.200 who were famous for their austere lifestyle

00:08:28.140 and for their practice of really toughening people up

00:08:30.920 in a big way,

00:08:31.840 so that they would make great warriors.

00:08:33.940 For most of human history,

00:08:35.360 life has been pretty uncertain for many people.

00:08:37.800 They were subject to diseases,

00:08:39.700 subject to shortages, hardship, famine,

00:08:41.800 the oppression, war, this kind of thing.

00:08:45.000 And so, it was a pretty useful character trait

00:08:48.000 to be able to stand up to adversity

00:08:50.140 and not be crushed by it.

00:08:51.820 I mean, by comparison,

00:08:53.100 our lives are relatively comfortable

00:08:55.180 and relatively safe,

00:08:56.660 even though, of course, we still have poverty,

00:08:58.500 we still have deprivation and injustice in some...

00:09:02.760 But in a sense,

00:09:03.720 we don't have to be quite as tough

00:09:06.200 as people used to be, I don't think.

00:09:08.400 I mean, sometimes life will throw us a curveball

00:09:11.080 and we do need to be resilient.

00:09:13.520 But the curveballs we get today

00:09:15.860 are rather less than people used to get on the whole, I think.

00:09:19.360 And so, that's one reason,

00:09:20.680 the issue of toughness and softness.

00:09:23.460 I think another thing is simply,

00:09:25.800 a slightly deeper issue,

00:09:27.440 is having sound values.

00:09:28.700 The thing about luxury and extravagance

00:09:30.340 is that if you go in for those,

00:09:33.240 then you start to become obsessed

00:09:36.020 with material possessions,

00:09:37.360 with money, with wealth,

00:09:38.440 with competition,

00:09:40.280 with, you know,

00:09:40.880 being superior to neighbours

00:09:42.060 or to others.

00:09:43.920 And that can incite other traits

00:09:45.960 like envy or resentment

00:09:47.400 or bitterness or frustration,

00:09:49.540 unsatisfied desires.

00:09:50.900 And I think that there's...

00:09:52.540 Those are some of the main reasons.

00:09:54.600 In the book,

00:09:55.120 I mentioned that

00:09:55.940 a lot of the colleges

00:09:58.140 in the United States

00:09:59.140 were set up in rural locations

00:10:00.740 precisely because people thought

00:10:02.320 that these rural locations

00:10:03.760 would keep people away from temptation.

00:10:05.800 A bit like the location of monasteries.

00:10:08.560 Do you think there's a bit

00:10:09.440 of sour grapes going on there too?

00:10:11.100 Like sort of a Nietzschean inversion

00:10:12.560 of values where, you know,

00:10:15.560 that's extravagance.

00:10:16.600 All that great stuff is bad.

00:10:17.860 This plain living,

00:10:18.920 that's the good stuff.

00:10:20.860 Yeah.

00:10:21.360 Well, it could be.

00:10:22.360 Someone like Nietzsche

00:10:23.320 or someone else might say,

00:10:24.860 well, yeah,

00:10:25.260 these philosophers,

00:10:26.260 they basically,

00:10:27.440 because they're no good

00:10:28.640 at making money

00:10:29.660 or perhaps because they're no good

00:10:31.020 at really living

00:10:31.760 interesting, adventurous lifestyles,

00:10:33.440 you know,

00:10:33.740 that's not their sort of thing.

00:10:36.380 And so they praise to the hilt

00:10:38.380 the kind of life

00:10:39.460 that they're most comfortable living

00:10:40.660 or the kind of life

00:10:41.600 that they are capable of living.

00:10:43.160 That would be,

00:10:44.200 Nietzsche does make

00:10:44.920 that kind of accusation,

00:10:46.700 although he himself,

00:10:47.820 of course,

00:10:48.320 is a classic example

00:10:49.300 of a philosopher

00:10:49.860 living a very,

00:10:50.700 very frugal,

00:10:51.420 simple lifestyle.

00:10:53.000 I think that,

00:10:54.280 I don't know,

00:10:55.100 there's something to that.

00:10:56.400 There's also another aspect,

00:10:58.560 which is that simple living

00:11:00.800 is also associated

00:11:01.780 quite strongly

00:11:03.100 in many people's minds

00:11:04.000 with wisdom.

00:11:05.140 And this is a very interesting question

00:11:06.540 because if you ask

00:11:07.340 what is wisdom,

00:11:08.720 I would say that wisdom,

00:11:10.320 more than anything else,

00:11:11.340 is having sound values.

00:11:13.280 It's knowing what's important

00:11:14.880 and what's not.

00:11:16.540 And if you go back

00:11:17.480 to Plato and Socrates,

00:11:18.600 I mean,

00:11:18.960 and the Stoics and the rest,

00:11:20.340 their basic argument is

00:11:22.220 wisdom is all about

00:11:23.480 having sound values.

00:11:24.860 What matters to them,

00:11:26.320 Plato and Socrates,

00:11:27.080 is being moral,

00:11:28.680 being a virtuous person.

00:11:29.740 What matters to Jesus

00:11:31.700 is spirituality

00:11:33.640 and a relationship to God.

00:11:35.380 What matters to the Buddha

00:11:36.240 is enlightenment.

00:11:37.800 These are all kinds of wisdom,

00:11:39.300 forms of wisdom,

00:11:40.260 luxury and extravagant

00:11:41.140 tend to draw one away

00:11:42.600 from those things

00:11:43.760 towards false values,

00:11:45.680 you know,

00:11:45.900 the value of material possessions

00:11:47.160 of wealth and domination

00:11:49.260 and that kind of thing.

00:11:50.500 So frugality has been called

00:11:51.860 a virtue.

00:11:52.720 Ben Franklin listed it

00:11:53.860 as one of his 13 virtues

00:11:55.140 he followed as a young man.

00:11:57.520 But virtues,

00:11:58.480 as we remember

00:11:59.160 from Aristotle and Plato,

00:12:00.480 there are things

00:12:01.400 that are good

00:12:01.900 in and of themselves,

00:12:03.300 like things like justice,

00:12:04.880 beauty,

00:12:05.800 things like that.

00:12:06.920 But whenever I think

00:12:07.700 of frugality,

00:12:08.540 I always think of the benefits

00:12:10.080 that frugality provides me.

00:12:12.460 So these are like

00:12:12.940 prudential reasons, right?

00:12:14.280 Like I save more money,

00:12:15.460 I become more self-reliant,

00:12:16.480 et cetera.

00:12:17.120 So what's the case

00:12:18.180 that frugality

00:12:19.100 and simplicity

00:12:20.140 are inherently good?

00:12:21.720 Okay,

00:12:22.240 I'd have to say

00:12:22.940 you're asking the wrong person

00:12:24.540 that question

00:12:25.040 and I'll tell you why.

00:12:25.840 Because that view,

00:12:27.880 the view that

00:12:28.460 something is inherently good,

00:12:30.720 a certain character trait

00:12:31.980 is inherently good.

00:12:33.560 That is a view

00:12:34.820 in philosophy

00:12:35.240 known as virtue ethics.

00:12:36.400 It's where you say,

00:12:37.220 you know,

00:12:37.420 what really matters

00:12:38.120 is having certain virtues,

00:12:40.160 certain character traits

00:12:40.960 that are inherently good.

00:12:42.340 And I'm not terribly

00:12:43.480 sympathetic to that view.

00:12:45.100 I'm more of what

00:12:46.380 philosophers call

00:12:47.140 a utilitarian.

00:12:48.040 I think what is really good

00:12:49.560 in the world

00:12:50.220 is happiness,

00:12:51.940 pleasure,

00:12:52.680 well-being,

00:12:53.160 self-fulfillment,

00:12:55.320 self-realization,

00:12:56.540 and that kind of thing.

00:12:57.240 These don't have to be

00:12:58.160 bland.

00:13:00.720 They don't have to be simple.

00:13:02.120 They can be complex.

00:13:03.420 There's plenty of place

00:13:04.780 in a good life,

00:13:05.680 in a happy life

00:13:06.860 for pain

00:13:08.480 and unhappiness,

00:13:09.700 actually.

00:13:10.340 And so I wouldn't want

00:13:11.680 to make it

00:13:13.140 uncomplicated.

00:13:14.860 I think a fulfilling life

00:13:16.760 can be a very complicated thing.

00:13:18.360 But I think that

00:13:20.840 all the traits

00:13:21.620 that we think of

00:13:22.120 as virtues,

00:13:22.840 whether it's wisdom

00:13:23.560 or frugality

00:13:24.300 or generosity

00:13:26.340 or courage

00:13:28.040 or anything else

00:13:29.220 you want,

00:13:29.600 kindness and compassion,

00:13:31.100 I think that we call

00:13:31.940 them all good

00:13:32.580 because we think

00:13:33.700 that they in some way

00:13:34.760 promote human well-being,

00:13:37.140 human satisfaction,

00:13:38.280 human happiness.

00:13:39.260 So what are some

00:13:39.740 of those ways

00:13:40.840 that make us happy?

00:13:41.920 You mentioned a few

00:13:42.700 that make us happier,

00:13:44.320 produce flourishing,

00:13:45.920 makes us more self-reliant,

00:13:47.260 allows us to enjoy

00:13:48.220 simple pleasures.

00:13:49.780 Are there any other ways

00:13:50.920 that frugality

00:13:51.680 and simple living

00:13:52.380 can bring out

00:13:53.800 human flourishing?

00:13:54.980 Sure.

00:13:55.540 I think, you know,

00:13:56.220 the third chapter

00:13:57.340 of the book

00:13:57.560 is all about

00:13:58.000 the association

00:13:59.260 between living frugal

00:14:00.860 and simply

00:14:01.300 and being happy.

00:14:02.780 I think that there's

00:14:03.620 a whole battery

00:14:04.520 of arguments,

00:14:05.680 but it might be good

00:14:06.920 to mention

00:14:07.820 just one or two.

00:14:09.020 I think one of the

00:14:09.700 most interesting ones

00:14:10.700 that's actually relevant

00:14:11.900 to today's political

00:14:13.400 and economic situation

00:14:14.240 is this,

00:14:15.240 that if you can make,

00:14:16.400 if you can get by

00:14:17.980 on a few things,

00:14:19.760 if you can reduce

00:14:20.600 your basic needs

00:14:21.640 and live simply,

00:14:23.200 then you actually

00:14:23.780 don't need to work

00:14:24.680 as much,

00:14:25.280 which means you can

00:14:25.860 enjoy more leisure.

00:14:27.040 This is very much

00:14:27.660 an Epicurean

00:14:28.440 kind of argument,

00:14:29.300 going back to

00:14:29.700 Epicurus' philosophy,

00:14:31.360 as he put it forward

00:14:32.700 with his friends

00:14:33.260 in the garden

00:14:33.860 that he grew.

00:14:35.460 And, you know,

00:14:36.220 you, at the moment

00:14:37.160 in our society,

00:14:38.320 we actually work,

00:14:39.140 many people work

00:14:39.820 quite hard.

00:14:40.420 Many people work

00:14:41.160 harder than they

00:14:42.100 actually want to work,

00:14:43.280 but we're actually

00:14:43.920 entering an interesting

00:14:45.080 and perhaps very difficult

00:14:46.480 time where machines

00:14:48.200 are taking over

00:14:49.520 from human labor

00:14:50.520 to quite an extent.

00:14:52.280 And in some ways,

00:14:53.360 you can imagine

00:14:54.020 a future not too distant

00:14:55.320 where there really

00:14:56.560 is a need for people

00:14:57.680 to work less

00:14:58.800 and therefore find a way,

00:15:01.540 I mean,

00:15:01.760 maybe they'll earn

00:15:02.440 less money,

00:15:03.200 and so they need to

00:15:04.020 find a way of living

00:15:05.020 on less,

00:15:05.800 yet enjoying life

00:15:06.820 on less.

00:15:07.580 And that might,

00:15:08.200 that's a matter of

00:15:09.460 learning to perhaps

00:15:11.260 cut back on the

00:15:12.220 extravagances

00:15:12.780 and on the luxuries,

00:15:13.920 but also a way

00:15:14.960 of making good use

00:15:16.160 of your leisure time.

00:15:18.080 So I think that's

00:15:18.720 one of the most

00:15:19.140 important arguments

00:15:19.860 for simple living,

00:15:20.560 which is it is a way

00:15:21.720 of actually increasing

00:15:22.500 your leisure.

00:15:23.220 Another argument,

00:15:24.200 it fosters a certain

00:15:25.200 independence

00:15:25.860 and self-sufficiency.

00:15:27.280 In ancient times,

00:15:28.480 when people thought

00:15:29.140 about self-sufficiency

00:15:30.560 and independence,

00:15:31.800 the philosophers,

00:15:32.740 what they really had

00:15:33.400 in mind was

00:15:33.960 not having to flatter

00:15:35.400 people,

00:15:35.880 not having to fawn

00:15:36.760 to your superiors,

00:15:37.660 not having to be

00:15:39.220 in someone else's

00:15:40.040 pay kind of thing

00:15:40.860 and always,

00:15:41.580 you know, 0.98

00:15:42.160 sort of sucking up 0.99

00:15:43.960 to them. 0.91

00:15:44.760 I think that nowadays,

00:15:46.100 though,

00:15:46.380 it's interesting

00:15:47.120 that as we,

00:15:48.980 as our lives

00:15:49.840 have become

00:15:50.380 in some ways

00:15:50.980 further removed

00:15:52.860 from the basic

00:15:54.640 means of producing

00:15:56.220 the means of life,

00:15:57.080 from growing food

00:15:57.960 and making clothes

00:15:58.820 and this kind of thing.

00:15:59.660 And so in that sense,

00:16:01.120 you could say

00:16:01.840 that we live

00:16:02.360 rather alienated lives

00:16:03.500 now,

00:16:03.900 rather distant

00:16:05.060 from the fundamental

00:16:06.320 means of production.

00:16:07.940 Yet there's a tremendous

00:16:09.160 interest in people

00:16:10.040 going back to doing

00:16:11.160 things like

00:16:11.720 growing their own

00:16:12.540 gardens

00:16:12.920 and knitting

00:16:13.840 their own sweaters

00:16:14.700 and just doing

00:16:16.340 things for themselves.

00:16:17.760 Doing things for yourself

00:16:18.880 is immensely satisfying

00:16:20.380 for many people.

00:16:21.500 You can probably tell

00:16:21.980 from my accent

00:16:22.500 I'm not originally

00:16:23.260 American,

00:16:23.900 I grew up in Britain

00:16:24.920 and one of the things

00:16:26.440 that has really

00:16:27.460 impressed me

00:16:28.180 in the United States

00:16:29.720 is how many

00:16:30.700 guys I know

00:16:31.980 who are

00:16:33.780 fantastically

00:16:34.580 self-sufficient.

00:16:36.120 If the,

00:16:36.360 you know,

00:16:36.540 the people who can

00:16:37.380 literally build houses,

00:16:39.300 including the plumbing

00:16:40.160 and the electricity

00:16:40.900 and the foundations

00:16:41.820 and the roof

00:16:42.560 and the walls

00:16:44.080 and everything,

00:16:44.960 most of my friends

00:16:46.300 and family in Britain

00:16:47.380 by comparison

00:16:48.140 are lamentably

00:16:49.700 unself-sufficient.

00:16:51.200 I think it's a,

00:16:51.720 I think it's a very

00:16:52.520 interesting feature

00:16:53.780 of American culture

00:16:54.780 is the,

00:16:55.720 the,

00:16:56.120 the,

00:16:56.640 the important,

00:16:58.120 the value that's placed

00:16:59.000 on people being capable

00:17:00.480 of that kind of thing.

00:17:01.480 Yeah,

00:17:01.740 and in that

00:17:02.320 self-sufficiency section

00:17:03.620 you talked about how,

00:17:05.460 you talked about Hegel's

00:17:06.420 like master-slave,

00:17:07.820 you know,

00:17:08.120 metaphor that

00:17:08.920 the master,

00:17:09.880 you know,

00:17:10.220 ends up kind of like

00:17:11.160 in charge at first,

00:17:12.060 but he begins,

00:17:13.440 you know,

00:17:13.780 delegating so many tasks

00:17:15.060 to the slave

00:17:15.580 that eventually the slave

00:17:16.780 is in charge.

00:17:17.580 And I've noticed that,

00:17:18.520 that kind of dichotomy

00:17:19.440 play out in my own life

00:17:20.260 where I,

00:17:20.600 I outsource so many things

00:17:22.300 to other people.

00:17:23.240 I'm not saying these people

00:17:23.900 are slaves,

00:17:24.280 but just outsourcing

00:17:24.920 to other people

00:17:25.380 who do this work.

00:17:26.080 And like,

00:17:26.840 I realized,

00:17:27.620 boy,

00:17:27.800 I'm not really in charge here.

00:17:29.040 Like,

00:17:29.200 I wouldn't be able

00:17:30.420 to do this for myself.

00:17:31.300 These people are,

00:17:32.100 are in charge,

00:17:32.820 you know,

00:17:33.000 in a way.

00:17:33.620 No,

00:17:33.820 and,

00:17:33.940 and of course,

00:17:34.440 one of the things

00:17:35.080 is that the,

00:17:36.640 the role of technology

00:17:37.580 in our lives

00:17:38.220 makes the whole business

00:17:39.580 of self-sufficiency

00:17:40.400 rather complicated.

00:17:42.260 For example,

00:17:43.160 I think,

00:17:43.580 I honestly,

00:17:44.120 I'm not a great,

00:17:45.160 I'm not great at car mechanics,

00:17:46.700 but I do a little bit.

00:17:48.040 But it might,

00:17:48.840 it seems to me

00:17:49.320 that it used to be

00:17:49.960 an awful lot easier

00:17:50.780 to fix your own car

00:17:51.880 than now

00:17:52.360 because so many things

00:17:53.220 on your car now

00:17:53.880 need a computerized,

00:17:55.940 computerized check

00:17:57.400 with fancy equipment

00:17:58.540 that you're just not

00:17:59.240 going to have at home.

00:18:00.540 And so,

00:18:01.500 it's almost like

00:18:02.220 the,

00:18:02.520 the technological trends

00:18:03.760 almost force us

00:18:05.220 in some ways

00:18:05.720 to become

00:18:06.240 less self-sufficient.

00:18:07.780 Yet,

00:18:07.960 on the other hand,

00:18:08.580 some technology

00:18:09.180 makes us more self-sufficient.

00:18:10.280 So,

00:18:10.460 for instance,

00:18:10.920 now when,

00:18:11.540 when we take photos

00:18:12.360 with a digital camera,

00:18:13.240 we don't send them away

00:18:14.000 to be processed,

00:18:14.700 we just process them ourselves.

00:18:16.180 But we process them

00:18:16.980 on our computer,

00:18:18.320 which of course

00:18:18.760 we haven't built ourselves

00:18:19.540 usually.

00:18:20.180 We've just,

00:18:21.040 you know,

00:18:21.540 so we're heavily dependent

00:18:23.340 on the technology,

00:18:24.880 but in some ways

00:18:25.820 the technology

00:18:27.040 allows us

00:18:28.140 to be more self-sufficient

00:18:29.080 just like a washing machine

00:18:30.280 allows you to wash

00:18:30.900 your own clothes

00:18:31.440 rather than send them out

00:18:32.280 to the washing woman. 1.00

00:18:33.960 Well,

00:18:34.020 one issue you bring up

00:18:34.760 about frugality,

00:18:35.680 sort of the problems

00:18:36.660 of frugality

00:18:37.300 in our modern world

00:18:38.500 is that,

00:18:39.080 you just mentioned one of it,

00:18:40.000 it's hard to be frugal

00:18:41.640 in some ways

00:18:42.580 in our sort of

00:18:43.320 dynamic,

00:18:44.560 interconnected,

00:18:45.300 specialized,

00:18:46.100 tech-infused

00:18:46.820 economy that we have.

00:18:48.100 And I've noticed

00:18:48.540 in my own life

00:18:49.040 when I try to,

00:18:50.160 you know,

00:18:50.380 follow the traditionally

00:18:51.200 frugal path,

00:18:52.000 I'm going to do it myself,

00:18:52.980 I end up actually

00:18:54.460 spending more money,

00:18:55.840 more time,

00:18:57.480 and you make the seven trips

00:18:58.580 to Home Depot

00:18:59.220 over and over again

00:19:00.260 because you got

00:19:01.220 the wrong part.

00:19:02.480 So,

00:19:02.760 I mean,

00:19:03.020 is it becoming harder

00:19:04.120 to live frugally

00:19:05.460 in our sort of

00:19:06.580 modern world?

00:19:07.140 I think

00:19:08.140 in some ways,

00:19:09.800 yes.

00:19:10.140 I think

00:19:10.840 on the one hand,

00:19:11.700 we do have

00:19:12.400 more options

00:19:13.960 in some ways,

00:19:15.160 but it's a matter of,

00:19:16.960 you know,

00:19:17.360 how much you want to be

00:19:18.300 on the grid

00:19:18.800 or off the grid.

00:19:19.960 A really good example

00:19:21.080 is,

00:19:21.800 let's say,

00:19:22.240 having a smartphone.

00:19:23.660 I mean,

00:19:23.920 having a smartphone,

00:19:25.200 obviously,

00:19:25.600 no one thought about that

00:19:26.500 30 years ago.

00:19:27.680 Now,

00:19:28.140 if you're

00:19:28.940 an ordinary person

00:19:30.520 with a,

00:19:31.020 you know,

00:19:31.520 a professional kind of job

00:19:32.880 living in a city,

00:19:34.020 it's pretty hard to manage

00:19:35.080 without a smartphone.

00:19:35.740 It's expected.

00:19:37.080 If you're applying

00:19:37.920 for a job

00:19:38.560 and,

00:19:39.180 you know,

00:19:39.480 to not have a smartphone

00:19:40.360 now when you're

00:19:40.940 in the business

00:19:41.720 of running around

00:19:42.280 applying for jobs

00:19:42.980 or something

00:19:43.400 would be like

00:19:46.120 not having an address.

00:19:47.460 You know,

00:19:47.720 if you go to college,

00:19:49.660 let's say,

00:19:50.760 you know,

00:19:51.180 I'm a college teacher

00:19:52.060 and all the students

00:19:52.920 have phones,

00:19:55.160 you know,

00:19:55.340 cell phones,

00:19:55.980 usually smartphones now,

00:19:57.360 and to not have one

00:19:58.340 would be to be

00:19:59.260 completely cut out of the loop.

00:20:01.100 You wouldn't know

00:20:01.600 what was going on.

00:20:02.320 You'd never get any

00:20:02.900 invitations to anything.

00:20:04.220 And so,

00:20:04.840 you're virtually

00:20:05.440 virtually forced.

00:20:06.480 There's a wonderful phrase

00:20:07.560 by Juliette Shaw,

00:20:08.740 a social critic

00:20:10.280 that I like,

00:20:11.700 and she said,

00:20:12.660 you know,

00:20:12.900 the old phrase is

00:20:13.980 necessity is the mother 0.96

00:20:15.060 of invention.

00:20:16.060 She said invention

00:20:16.780 is the mother of necessity

00:20:17.920 in the modern world

00:20:18.960 because,

00:20:20.220 you know,

00:20:20.440 people invent things

00:20:21.340 and at first

00:20:22.720 they're luxuries,

00:20:23.720 like remote controls

00:20:24.940 on TVs used to be luxuries,

00:20:26.460 but who'd buy a TV

00:20:27.140 without a remote control now

00:20:28.420 or an answering machine

00:20:29.860 or,

00:20:30.480 except the answering machines

00:20:31.460 are on the way out

00:20:31.940 because now people

00:20:33.040 are getting rid of the landlines.

00:20:34.020 You really have a hard time

00:20:38.140 if you don't keep up

00:20:39.720 with the technology.

00:20:40.840 But the technology

00:20:41.440 costs money

00:20:42.080 and it's expensive

00:20:42.880 and it's complicated

00:20:43.820 and it breaks down

00:20:45.000 on you sometimes.

00:20:46.060 One argument you made

00:20:46.880 in the book

00:20:47.380 was that,

00:20:48.060 you know,

00:20:48.540 we praise frugality

00:20:49.640 and we publicly

00:20:50.680 exue extravagance,

00:20:52.340 right?

00:20:52.440 We look down upon it.

00:20:53.440 But you point out

00:20:53.940 there's actually

00:20:54.500 some great benefits

00:20:55.660 to extravagant living

00:20:57.140 that we all benefit from

00:20:58.500 as a culture.

00:21:00.120 What are some

00:21:00.560 of those benefits?

00:21:01.040 Well,

00:21:01.880 the most obvious thing

00:21:03.280 when you think about it

00:21:04.180 is just think about

00:21:05.980 where you go

00:21:06.560 if you're on holiday,

00:21:07.440 where you go as a tourist.

00:21:09.060 You know,

00:21:09.260 if you go to Europe,

00:21:10.240 let's say,

00:21:10.760 you'd go to see

00:21:11.920 the Renaissance art

00:21:13.280 of Florence.

00:21:15.180 You'd go to see

00:21:16.320 perhaps the Sistine Chapel

00:21:17.520 in the Vatican.

00:21:18.420 You might go to see

00:21:19.140 the Palace at Versailles.

00:21:20.940 Further afield,

00:21:21.620 you might go to

00:21:21.960 the Taj Mahal

00:21:23.040 or something.

00:21:23.580 What are these?

00:21:24.320 These are all

00:21:24.920 basically monuments

00:21:25.780 to the extravagance

00:21:26.980 of long dead fat cats.

00:21:28.160 I mean,

00:21:28.540 that's what they are.

00:21:29.280 They're fantastic works

00:21:31.340 of art and architecture

00:21:32.580 that were very expensive

00:21:34.040 to produce.

00:21:35.080 But we don't now wish

00:21:36.120 that those people

00:21:36.760 had lived frugally.

00:21:37.940 You know,

00:21:38.080 the people who hired

00:21:39.260 Haydn and Mozart

00:21:41.600 and people like that

00:21:42.720 as court musicians

00:21:43.680 or as commissioned

00:21:44.500 their musical works,

00:21:45.820 we don't wish

00:21:46.320 they'd lived more frugally.

00:21:47.400 We're glad that they

00:21:48.200 hired these musicians.

00:21:49.560 We're glad that they

00:21:50.160 commissioned the works.

00:21:52.100 And so,

00:21:53.300 you know,

00:21:53.780 one way of putting it

00:21:54.440 is, you know,

00:21:55.040 extravagance produces

00:21:56.000 the stuff of culture,

00:21:56.900 which we're all grateful for.

00:21:58.320 We don't really,

00:21:59.300 I mean,

00:21:59.620 Socrates in the Republic

00:22:00.640 fantasizes about

00:22:01.740 everyone sitting around

00:22:02.620 on logs just,

00:22:03.640 you know,

00:22:03.940 drinking water

00:22:04.620 and having philosophical

00:22:05.820 conversations.

00:22:06.940 But most of us,

00:22:08.320 you know,

00:22:08.560 as his interlocutors

00:22:09.420 say in the Republic,

00:22:10.420 that sounds a bit

00:22:10.980 boring, Socrates.

00:22:12.000 I mean,

00:22:12.180 could we have a bit more?

00:22:13.380 And most of us

00:22:14.140 actually do rather relish

00:22:15.920 the fruits of civilization,

00:22:18.080 which are also

00:22:18.780 the fruits of extravagance.

00:22:20.440 On a more personal level,

00:22:22.320 if I say,

00:22:23.840 stand up in front

00:22:24.460 of my class of students

00:22:25.560 and I describe,

00:22:27.880 let's say,

00:22:28.560 the ideal life

00:22:29.340 according to Epicurus,

00:22:30.800 where you basically

00:22:32.180 live in a house

00:22:33.260 with a nice garden,

00:22:34.340 growing some vegetables

00:22:35.120 and you live there

00:22:35.840 with friends

00:22:36.400 and every evening

00:22:37.460 you have a meal together

00:22:38.420 and you do a bit

00:22:39.880 of writing

00:22:40.360 and you do a bit

00:22:41.340 of weeding

00:22:41.840 and you do a bit

00:22:42.420 of conversing

00:22:43.480 and you lounge around

00:22:44.240 in a hammock

00:22:44.680 and that's your life.

00:22:46.260 A lot of them would say

00:22:46.940 that's not what I want,

00:22:47.700 that's boring.

00:22:48.560 I want to travel,

00:22:49.980 I want to see things,

00:22:50.800 I want to do things,

00:22:51.700 I want to make things,

00:22:52.860 I want to get somewhere

00:22:54.760 and, you know,

00:22:55.640 in other words,

00:22:56.240 they've got a different vision,

00:22:58.000 a much more sort of active,

00:22:59.840 adventurous,

00:23:00.520 dynamic vision

00:23:01.260 of what the good life is

00:23:02.700 and that's because

00:23:04.120 we, in a way,

00:23:06.360 we live in modern times

00:23:07.700 where a lot of the basics

00:23:09.580 are taken care of.

00:23:11.160 For most people

00:23:11.940 throughout human history,

00:23:13.140 I think actually

00:23:13.880 a life where you avoided

00:23:15.400 famine, pestilence,

00:23:17.120 disease, plague,

00:23:18.440 war and depression

00:23:19.600 was a, you know,

00:23:20.840 and tragedy

00:23:21.320 was a pretty good life

00:23:22.400 but for most of us now,

00:23:23.760 it's not enough.

00:23:24.500 Most of us want,

00:23:25.240 we take all that for granted

00:23:26.460 that we're not going to die

00:23:27.380 in a famine or a plague

00:23:28.320 and we now want to do

00:23:30.280 more with our lives.

00:23:31.160 We want adventure

00:23:31.760 and excitement.

00:23:32.720 Yeah, I mean,

00:23:33.020 as I read your book,

00:23:34.180 I found myself thinking,

00:23:36.120 finding that frugality,

00:23:37.400 the concept of frugality

00:23:38.380 or simple living

00:23:38.920 was a lot more slippery

00:23:40.400 than we often think it is.

00:23:41.940 We often think it

00:23:42.400 very cut black and white

00:23:43.900 but it changes.

00:23:45.180 Like the concept

00:23:45.720 of frugality changes

00:23:46.700 based on our standard

00:23:47.440 of livings.

00:23:48.520 What's frugal,

00:23:49.660 you know,

00:23:49.900 a hundred years ago

00:23:50.600 is, you know,

00:23:51.620 just being a tightwad, 1.00

00:23:53.580 right, today.

00:23:55.200 But, and so,

00:23:55.860 there's a relevant,

00:23:56.940 there's, it is sort of relative.

00:23:58.380 I mean, for example,

00:23:59.580 sort of this,

00:24:00.680 the relativity of frugality

00:24:02.620 and extravagance,

00:24:03.560 you know,

00:24:03.740 like, say a person

00:24:05.340 who's making $50,000 a year

00:24:07.140 buys a $5,000 watch.

00:24:09.280 Well, we would say

00:24:09.840 that's not being frugal

00:24:10.880 but like if you make

00:24:11.700 $10 million a year,

00:24:13.420 you know,

00:24:13.660 a $5,000 watch

00:24:14.720 is a drop in the bucket.

00:24:16.200 It's like,

00:24:16.400 I think it'd be 0.05%

00:24:17.700 of income maybe.

00:24:18.800 But we still,

00:24:19.620 we would still think,

00:24:20.840 like I think on a gut level,

00:24:22.180 like that guy

00:24:23.480 with $10 million

00:24:24.200 buying the $5,000 watch,

00:24:25.980 well,

00:24:26.080 that's being extravagant.

00:24:27.460 What's going on there,

00:24:28.220 do you think?

00:24:29.100 I think what's going on

00:24:30.180 is there's two notions

00:24:31.600 of extravagance.

00:24:32.820 The millionaire

00:24:33.460 who buys the,

00:24:34.400 you know,

00:24:35.200 the expensive watch,

00:24:36.620 the $20,000 Rolex

00:24:37.840 or something,

00:24:38.420 they're not being extravagant

00:24:39.560 in the sense that

00:24:40.360 they are landing themselves

00:24:41.900 in debt

00:24:42.280 and it's all going to end

00:24:43.080 in tears.

00:24:44.360 No,

00:24:44.680 I mean,

00:24:45.060 they're filthy rich

00:24:46.000 and they can do,

00:24:46.860 you know,

00:24:47.080 they can buy

00:24:47.740 several Rolexes,

00:24:49.200 right?

00:24:49.740 But they're being extravagant

00:24:51.160 in another sense,

00:24:52.300 in the sense that

00:24:53.000 they're just throwing

00:24:54.860 the money around.

00:24:56.680 And there are two points,

00:24:58.500 two critical points

00:24:59.280 a lot of moral philosophers

00:25:00.220 would make,

00:25:00.920 and I'd make them too.

00:25:02.120 One is that

00:25:03.280 you could say

00:25:03.880 that money could be

00:25:04.780 much better spent

00:25:05.720 on,

00:25:06.140 you know,

00:25:06.420 more worthwhile things.

00:25:08.540 The other,

00:25:08.900 and that point is

00:25:09.580 made very often.

00:25:10.940 The other point though

00:25:11.580 is that

00:25:12.320 what does it say

00:25:13.100 about the person?

00:25:14.160 What does it say

00:25:14.780 about a person

00:25:15.500 that they,

00:25:16.340 they want to buy

00:25:18.200 a $20,000 watch?

00:25:19.740 I mean,

00:25:19.980 why do they want it? 0.81

00:25:21.460 What's the point?

00:25:22.740 Surely,

00:25:23.320 the point is,

00:25:24.420 there can only be

00:25:25.260 one point,

00:25:25.920 really,

00:25:26.480 and that is

00:25:27.040 to show off

00:25:28.160 to other people

00:25:28.580 how much money

00:25:29.020 they've got.

00:25:29.700 Because,

00:25:30.140 I mean,

00:25:30.400 they might make

00:25:31.040 other arguments.

00:25:31.740 They might say,

00:25:32.200 oh no,

00:25:32.520 it's just a beautiful

00:25:33.440 artifact and I enjoy

00:25:34.400 looking at it.

00:25:35.260 I'm inclined to say, 1.00

00:25:36.140 that's rubbish. 0.99

00:25:36.800 You basically, 1.00

00:25:37.640 you want to show off

00:25:38.260 how much money

00:25:38.680 you've got.

00:25:39.520 And,

00:25:39.780 and I think that

00:25:41.200 people are justifiably

00:25:42.880 reasonably suspicious

00:25:44.440 of that sort of motive.

00:25:45.720 So,

00:25:45.900 what kind of person

00:25:47.180 is it

00:25:47.640 who is so concerned

00:25:49.480 to display their wealth?

00:25:52.120 So,

00:25:52.320 we've talked about

00:25:52.800 some of,

00:25:53.120 a lot of the benefits

00:25:53.880 of frugality,

00:25:54.820 self-sufficiency,

00:25:56.220 just enjoying

00:25:56.820 simple pleasures,

00:25:58.380 things like that.

00:25:59.020 So,

00:25:59.260 I think people

00:25:59.880 intuitively understand

00:26:01.460 the benefits

00:26:02.340 of living

00:26:02.980 a simple lifestyle

00:26:03.880 and I think we all

00:26:04.680 yearn for it,

00:26:05.740 right?

00:26:05.860 I mean,

00:26:06.560 there's tons of books,

00:26:07.840 blogs,

00:26:08.820 magazines,

00:26:09.500 all about this topic

00:26:10.680 and how to live

00:26:11.420 this simple lifestyle,

00:26:13.160 which I think is

00:26:13.680 kind of ironic,

00:26:15.320 right?

00:26:15.600 There's like a whole,

00:26:16.380 there's a whole industry

00:26:17.260 dedicated to simple living.

00:26:18.700 Why is it like,

00:26:19.420 we know the benefits,

00:26:20.300 but we don't

00:26:21.380 live frugally.

00:26:22.340 So,

00:26:22.520 what's going on?

00:26:23.180 Why is there the disconnect

00:26:24.320 between desire

00:26:25.300 and behavior?

00:26:27.200 Yeah,

00:26:27.760 that is,

00:26:28.460 that's a bit of a million dollar

00:26:29.380 question.

00:26:30.500 I'll be quite honest,

00:26:31.520 in the book,

00:26:32.220 I mean,

00:26:32.500 that is one of the guiding

00:26:33.540 questions of the book.

00:26:34.420 The philosophers for two

00:26:35.480 and a half thousand years

00:26:36.220 have been telling us

00:26:36.960 to live frugally and simply.

00:26:38.700 Why have they had such a

00:26:40.020 hard time persuading

00:26:41.020 the majority of people?

00:26:43.060 And,

00:26:43.080 and to be quite honest,

00:26:44.880 I don't think that I come up

00:26:46.660 with a,

00:26:47.180 a single or simple answer

00:26:49.520 or complete answer

00:26:50.620 to that question.

00:26:51.740 I think that one reason

00:26:53.020 is that human beings

00:26:54.140 do have a tendency,

00:26:55.420 many of us,

00:26:56.280 all of us perhaps

00:26:56.960 sometimes,

00:26:57.780 to favor short-term goals

00:26:59.360 over long-term goals.

00:27:00.360 And so,

00:27:01.280 we see something we want,

00:27:03.340 whatever it is,

00:27:04.420 and we perhaps

00:27:05.740 can't really afford it,

00:27:07.420 but we'll do it anyway.

00:27:08.700 We'll get it anyway,

00:27:09.640 whether it's a house

00:27:10.520 or a holiday

00:27:11.060 or,

00:27:11.520 or a watch

00:27:12.460 or whatever.

00:27:13.480 In a sense,

00:27:14.280 and we,

00:27:14.780 we put our,

00:27:15.540 you know,

00:27:16.760 short-term goals

00:27:18.060 before our long-term goals

00:27:19.100 and,

00:27:19.900 you know,

00:27:20.160 and we just,

00:27:21.180 we just,

00:27:21.820 the short-term pleasures

00:27:23.740 have a tremendous

00:27:25.060 sort of magnetic

00:27:25.920 attraction to us.

00:27:27.020 That's one reason.

00:27:27.880 But the,

00:27:28.880 I think the deeper reason

00:27:29.800 is that we are

00:27:31.080 also products

00:27:32.340 of our culture.

00:27:33.220 We're shaped by our culture

00:27:34.520 to a very great extent

00:27:35.360 and it's very difficult

00:27:36.260 not to take on

00:27:37.420 the values of the culture.

00:27:39.240 People wear Rolex watches,

00:27:40.540 people buy houses

00:27:41.260 they can't afford

00:27:42.020 and we all do

00:27:43.020 these kind of things

00:27:43.660 to some extent

00:27:44.460 because we live

00:27:45.600 in a culture

00:27:46.080 where money really does

00:27:47.420 talk,

00:27:48.160 it really matters,

00:27:49.160 it's a fundamental value

00:27:50.380 and people who are rich

00:27:52.320 do,

00:27:53.140 they are looked up to,

00:27:54.080 they do enjoy

00:27:54.860 a kind of greater level

00:27:56.240 of respect and esteem,

00:27:57.740 they do have more power

00:27:59.260 and influence

00:27:59.940 on the whole

00:28:00.480 and,

00:28:00.800 you know,

00:28:02.180 it's one of the primary markers

00:28:03.640 of one's place

00:28:05.320 on the totem pole

00:28:06.160 just how much money you got

00:28:07.700 and if you want

00:28:09.480 other people to know

00:28:10.240 where you stand

00:28:10.580 on the totem pole,

00:28:11.440 you've got to spend the money.

00:28:12.860 So,

00:28:13.220 I think we,

00:28:14.160 you know,

00:28:14.320 it's very,

00:28:14.760 very difficult

00:28:15.140 to be immune

00:28:16.000 from the cultural pressures

00:28:17.340 of the society around us.

00:28:19.220 We talked about philosophers

00:28:20.280 who have praised,

00:28:22.120 you know,

00:28:22.500 simplicity

00:28:23.020 and frugal living

00:28:23.800 and extravagance

00:28:25.420 and luxury

00:28:26.200 are there any philosophers,

00:28:27.240 did these same philosophers

00:28:28.060 who praised frugality,

00:28:29.580 did they condemn

00:28:30.400 like miserliness as well

00:28:32.060 or were they like,

00:28:33.040 yeah,

00:28:33.180 let's go all in,

00:28:34.020 just like be super penny pincher,

00:28:36.480 Scrooge McDuck.

00:28:37.300 As usual,

00:28:38.340 Aristotle is the one

00:28:39.840 who goes for balance.

00:28:42.600 Someone once said,

00:28:43.880 you know,

00:28:44.080 as I get older,

00:28:44.920 I find Aristotle gets smarter

00:28:46.300 and it's really true,

00:28:48.180 you know,

00:28:48.760 Aristotle has a moral philosophy

00:28:50.980 where he often says

00:28:51.980 that the most desirable

00:28:53.440 character trait

00:28:54.260 is a sort of mean

00:28:56.100 between two extremes.

00:28:57.500 So,

00:28:58.080 you know,

00:28:58.600 courage lies between

00:29:00.460 recklessness,

00:29:01.500 which is kind of

00:29:02.140 too much courage,

00:29:02.820 courage without wisdom

00:29:03.720 and cowardice,

00:29:04.720 which is a vice.

00:29:05.620 He goes through a lot

00:29:06.240 of virtues like that.

00:29:07.180 Now,

00:29:07.340 he actually does praise

00:29:09.380 in a way extravagance.

00:29:10.600 That is,

00:29:11.240 he condemns miserliness.

00:29:12.760 Miserliness is a failing.

00:29:14.660 It's a moral failing.

00:29:15.840 But the extreme of extravagance

00:29:17.880 is profligacy.

00:29:19.500 It's where you're just

00:29:20.000 throwing money around

00:29:20.960 right at the center 0.99

00:29:21.860 and that's foolish. 0.99

00:29:24.080 And so, 0.98

00:29:24.800 between those

00:29:25.960 would be a proper,

00:29:28.100 not extravagance,

00:29:29.020 but a proper generosity,

00:29:30.640 right?

00:29:30.820 A liberality,

00:29:31.860 a sort of,

00:29:32.320 you don't put so much value

00:29:33.520 on money

00:29:33.900 that you're tight-fisted

00:29:35.660 with it.

00:29:36.320 You show a proper generosity

00:29:37.500 at the same time.

00:29:38.300 You're not stupid about it.

00:29:40.020 When it comes to 0.83

00:29:40.980 what you might call extravagance,

00:29:43.200 Aristotle does praise

00:29:44.760 what he calls magnificence.

00:29:46.480 And this is a very

00:29:47.220 interesting concept.

00:29:47.960 he says most people

00:29:50.640 can't practice magnificence.

00:29:52.160 Magnificence requires you

00:29:53.180 to be one of the

00:29:53.980 very wealthy.

00:29:55.020 You've got to be in the 1%.

00:29:56.360 The parsimoniousness

00:30:00.180 would be where

00:30:01.140 you've got tons of money

00:30:02.120 but you're really cheap about it.

00:30:03.720 You really still

00:30:04.660 don't do anything with it.

00:30:06.200 You just hoard it.

00:30:07.380 But on the other hand,

00:30:08.760 the bad extreme

00:30:10.620 at the other end

00:30:11.240 would be a kind of

00:30:12.260 vulgar extravagance

00:30:13.820 where you just sort of

00:30:15.680 make vulgar displays

00:30:17.460 of how wealthy you are.

00:30:19.040 What's in the middle

00:30:19.800 is something like

00:30:21.020 in Aristotle's days

00:30:22.440 someone, for instance,

00:30:23.860 providing funds

00:30:24.980 for the building

00:30:25.720 of a public temple

00:30:26.740 or providing funds

00:30:28.240 to help pay

00:30:29.580 for a sports event

00:30:31.200 or something like that.

00:30:32.240 And today,

00:30:32.740 you might think

00:30:33.260 of philanthropists

00:30:34.240 who give a lot of money

00:30:36.460 to worthy causes

00:30:37.560 like attacking,

00:30:39.420 you know,

00:30:39.620 fighting diseases

00:30:40.320 or for that matter

00:30:41.300 sponsoring museums,

00:30:43.260 endowing universities

00:30:44.140 and that kind of thing.

00:30:45.200 Aristotle is one

00:30:46.720 of the people

00:30:47.240 who says,

00:30:47.860 yeah,

00:30:48.180 that's a virtue

00:30:49.260 although most people

00:30:50.120 can't practice it.

00:30:51.100 As you've been thinking about

00:30:52.380 and you've written this book,

00:30:54.340 how do you find

00:30:54.900 your approach

00:30:55.320 to frugality

00:30:55.940 and simple living?

00:30:56.760 Has it changed any at all

00:30:58.080 since you began this project?

00:30:59.600 That's a difficult question.

00:31:00.600 First of all,

00:31:01.140 I want to make it clear

00:31:02.500 that I would never

00:31:04.120 hold myself up

00:31:05.060 as a paragon

00:31:06.300 of frugality

00:31:07.800 and simple living.

00:31:09.000 It's true that

00:31:09.640 living in a rural community

00:31:11.320 in a small college town

00:31:12.560 in western New York,

00:31:13.940 it is actually quite easy

00:31:15.200 to live somewhat simply,

00:31:17.100 you know,

00:31:17.280 walk to work,

00:31:18.360 come home,

00:31:19.320 you know,

00:31:19.660 probably the most common

00:31:21.920 kind of social entertainment

00:31:23.180 that I go in for

00:31:24.080 is just having potluck dinners

00:31:25.800 at people's houses,

00:31:26.760 you know,

00:31:27.020 and hosting them too.

00:31:28.520 So just the where I live

00:31:30.980 and the community

00:31:31.800 I belong to

00:31:32.560 enables me to live simply

00:31:34.720 in some ways

00:31:35.300 but I wouldn't say

00:31:37.160 that I'm especially frugal.

00:31:39.720 For instance,

00:31:40.740 you know,

00:31:40.980 I like to travel.

00:31:42.080 This summer we'll be going to,

00:31:43.700 you know,

00:31:43.940 back to visit friends

00:31:44.940 and family in Britain

00:31:45.680 and that all costs money.

00:31:47.740 I think it's made me

00:31:49.100 more self-aware,

00:31:50.540 I think,

00:31:50.860 writing the book

00:31:51.440 and thinking long and hard

00:31:52.760 about all these things.

00:31:54.140 I'm a very enthusiastic

00:31:55.260 grow-my-own-vegetables gardener.

00:31:57.100 I have lots of raised beds

00:31:58.460 with vegetables in them.

00:32:00.140 I'm looking out of the window now

00:32:01.280 and everything's covered in snow.

00:32:02.580 So, you know,

00:32:05.360 I think it's made me

00:32:06.820 more self-aware

00:32:07.440 and particularly

00:32:08.020 more self-aware

00:32:09.280 of the value

00:32:10.100 of the simple pleasures,

00:32:13.140 the pleasures of friendship,

00:32:14.860 communal eating,

00:32:15.860 growing your own vegetables,

00:32:17.460 you know,

00:32:17.940 that kind of thing.

00:32:19.280 But I'm inclined to think

00:32:20.960 I was already

00:32:21.540 that way disposed anyway.

00:32:24.220 So it seems like

00:32:24.940 you're taking

00:32:25.540 sort of an Aristotelian approach,

00:32:27.480 right?

00:32:28.920 Sort of.

00:32:29.640 Tell you one thing

00:32:30.960 where it's actually

00:32:31.560 may have had

00:32:32.040 an opposite effect

00:32:33.080 because it also,

00:32:34.700 you mentioned earlier

00:32:35.740 miserliness.

00:32:37.280 One of the things

00:32:37.920 is that if you go in

00:32:39.420 for frugality,

00:32:40.820 there is a danger

00:32:41.860 that you'll start

00:32:43.380 to develop,

00:32:44.460 for instance,

00:32:44.960 un-generosity,

00:32:45.760 a lack of generosity

00:32:46.460 or miserliness

00:32:47.260 or something like that.

00:32:48.500 This was, you know,

00:32:49.360 something that people

00:32:51.280 back in ancient times

00:32:52.000 also warned against.

00:32:53.520 And one sort of

00:32:55.040 slightly subtle way

00:32:57.140 in which this can manifest itself

00:32:58.460 is you can sometimes,

00:33:00.340 let's suppose

00:33:00.900 you can afford something

00:33:02.980 and it is something

00:33:04.180 that would be

00:33:05.400 a good thing to get

00:33:06.900 but it would save you

00:33:08.320 a lot of trouble

00:33:08.760 and yet you don't do it

00:33:10.200 just because you've

00:33:11.160 bought into the idea

00:33:12.080 of frugality.

00:33:13.740 Let's say there's a meal

00:33:14.600 on a restaurant

00:33:15.100 you really want.

00:33:16.160 You can afford it.

00:33:17.100 Let's say it's $20

00:33:17.900 or something

00:33:18.580 but you say,

00:33:19.060 I'm not going to pay

00:33:19.920 $20 for that.

00:33:21.220 So you don't do it

00:33:22.780 and so you deprive yourself

00:33:24.520 of a perfectly

00:33:25.160 enjoyable experience

00:33:26.500 or, you know,

00:33:27.940 you don't take a taxi

00:33:29.260 and said he walked

00:33:30.260 for an hour in the rain

00:33:31.160 or something

00:33:31.540 and it's totally miserable

00:33:32.400 and the truth is

00:33:33.240 it would have been worth

00:33:34.100 $20 or whatever.

00:33:35.480 You know,

00:33:35.680 so I actually think

00:33:36.820 in my life

00:33:37.720 I think I've done that

00:33:38.620 quite a few times

00:33:40.040 and maybe,

00:33:41.680 just maybe,

00:33:42.780 let's ask my spouse

00:33:44.800 about whether this is true

00:33:46.360 but maybe I'm improving.

00:33:48.700 So in that sense

00:33:49.700 it's made me

00:33:50.360 perhaps a little less frugal.

00:33:52.260 I don't know

00:33:52.540 if you've ever done

00:33:54.000 anything like that.

00:33:55.320 No, yeah.

00:33:55.820 I mean, yeah.

00:33:56.200 I've, as I've,

00:33:57.340 it's just all about wisdom.

00:33:58.360 You're trying to be

00:33:58.960 making better choices

00:34:00.120 and yeah,

00:34:00.940 I've indulged myself

00:34:01.900 a little bit more

00:34:02.480 where I can afford it

00:34:03.340 and like it actually

00:34:03.880 made my life better.

00:34:05.240 Yeah, but I've,

00:34:05.920 I'm definitely in that mode

00:34:06.740 where like,

00:34:07.180 no, we're not going

00:34:07.880 to spend money on that

00:34:08.680 because that's just

00:34:09.360 a waste of money

00:34:09.940 but it would be better

00:34:10.860 if I'd.

00:34:11.380 But then sometimes,

00:34:12.800 don't you find

00:34:13.160 sometimes afterwards

00:34:14.060 you think,

00:34:14.700 you know what? 1.00

00:34:15.580 That was stupid. 1.00

00:34:16.480 I was in that place 1.00

00:34:17.220 once in my life

00:34:18.220 and for $15

00:34:19.860 I could have done that thing,

00:34:21.920 seen that site,

00:34:23.220 whatever,

00:34:23.420 and I didn't

00:34:24.940 and I wouldn't miss

00:34:26.460 that $15 now

00:34:27.480 but I'll never have

00:34:28.740 that experience.

00:34:29.320 You can't take the money

00:34:29.960 with you to the grave.

00:34:30.940 Well, Imris,

00:34:31.340 this has been

00:34:31.720 a great conversation.

00:34:32.720 Is there someplace

00:34:33.160 people can go

00:34:33.940 to learn more

00:34:34.460 about your book

00:34:35.100 and your work?

00:34:35.760 Sure,

00:34:36.140 you could just go

00:34:36.800 to my website

00:34:37.560 to learn more

00:34:38.420 about my work

00:34:39.020 because I probably

00:34:39.760 write other things

00:34:40.880 as well

00:34:41.240 and if you just

00:34:42.400 Google my name,

00:34:43.380 Imris Westacott,

00:34:44.400 the first site

00:34:44.940 you'll come to

00:34:45.380 will be my homepage

00:34:46.620 which has got

00:34:47.160 stuff about

00:34:47.940 the classes I teach

00:34:48.900 and the articles

00:34:50.200 I've written

00:34:50.680 and things like that.

00:34:51.480 For the book,

00:34:52.580 you can go straight

00:34:53.840 to Princeton University Press

00:34:55.060 or Amazon

00:34:57.220 or whatever.

00:34:58.160 Well, Imris Westacott,

00:34:58.760 thank you so much

00:34:59.220 for your time.

00:34:59.600 It's been a pleasure.

00:35:00.160 It's been a pleasure.

00:35:00.720 Thank you.

00:35:01.140 My guest today

00:35:01.500 was Imris Westacott.

00:35:02.400 He's the author

00:35:02.860 of the book

00:35:03.400 The Wisdom of Frugality.

00:35:04.780 It's available

00:35:05.120 on Amazon.com

00:35:06.120 and bookstores everywhere.

00:35:07.120 Go pick it up.

00:35:07.600 It's a great book.

00:35:08.340 Also, make sure

00:35:08.840 to check out

00:35:09.120 our show notes

00:35:09.580 at aom.is

00:35:10.680 slash frugal

00:35:11.360 where you can find

00:35:11.900 links to resources

00:35:12.680 where you can delve

00:35:13.160 deeper into this topic.

00:35:14.080 Well, that wraps up

00:35:21.320 another edition

00:35:21.940 of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:35:23.540 For more manly tips

00:35:24.180 and advice,

00:35:24.600 make sure to check out

00:35:25.260 the Art of Manliness website

00:35:26.280 at artofmanliness.com.

00:35:27.520 If you enjoyed this podcast

00:35:28.980 and have gotten

00:35:29.540 something out of it,

00:35:30.200 I'd really appreciate

00:35:30.800 if you take one minute

00:35:31.660 to give us a review

00:35:32.680 on iTunes or Stitcher.

00:35:33.800 Helps us out a lot

00:35:34.380 in spreading the word

00:35:34.980 about the show.

00:35:35.680 As always,

00:35:36.300 thank you for your

00:35:36.900 continued support

00:35:37.360 and until next time,

00:35:38.220 this is Brett McKay

00:35:38.940 telling you to stay manly.

00:35:40.680 I'll see you next time.

The Art of Manliness - May 11, 2017

#303： The Philosphy of Frugality

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