The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025


#303： The Philosphy of Frugality


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Summary

When most people think of Frugality, they think of it primarily as a way to reduce spending so they can do things like pay off debt or save for a goal like retirement or a down payment on a home, it s seen as a personal finance tactic with purely utilitarian ends. But for philosophers and theologians, going back all the way to ancient Greece, frugality was seen as an essential virtue in order to develop wisdom and true happiness.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:00:18.720 When most people think of frugality, they think of it primarily as a way to reduce spending so
00:00:22.440 they can do things like pay off debt or save for a goal like retirement or a down payment on a home.
00:00:26.640 It's seen as a personal finance tactic with purely utilitarian ends.
00:00:30.000 But for philosophers and theologians going back all the way to ancient Greece,
00:00:33.700 frugality was seen as an essential virtue in order to develop wisdom and true happiness.
00:00:38.040 Today on the show, I talked to Emreys Westacott, the author of the book The Wisdom of Frugality,
00:00:42.360 about the philosophical history of penny-pinching.
00:00:44.520 We begin our conversation discussing what philosophers mean by frugality
00:00:47.320 and the various philosophical schools that it gave frugality premacy.
00:00:50.780 We then go to summarize the arguments as to why frugality makes people wiser and happier,
00:00:54.900 the counter-arguments to frugality as a virtue,
00:00:57.020 and why the ideal of frugality changes based on circumstances
00:01:00.220 and why living frugally is harder to do today than in times past.
00:01:04.060 This show provides a nuanced look at a much-praised virtue
00:01:06.580 and will leave you mulling over how, why, and to what extent to strive for it in your own life.
00:01:10.760 After the show's over, check out the show notes at aom.is slash frugal.
00:01:19.180 Emreys Westacott, welcome to the show.
00:01:21.640 I'm glad to be here.
00:01:22.300 So you are a professor of philosophy and you've written a book called The Wisdom of Frugality
00:01:27.200 and it's all about frugality.
00:01:29.780 This sort of penny-pitching or, you know, doing things to save money, being resourceful.
00:01:34.200 I'm curious, what's a philosophy professor doing writing a book about frugality?
00:01:39.340 Well, I could make jokes there about my salary, I guess, couldn't I?
00:01:41.900 But it's actually about more than frugality.
00:01:45.860 It's about frugality and simple living.
00:01:47.480 I started writing the book because I was intrigued by the question,
00:01:52.060 why do we consider frugality a virtue?
00:01:55.140 Because it has been considered a virtue from ancient times all the way through Ben Franklin to today.
00:02:00.600 And I actually got interested in the question because I was teaching an evening class
00:02:04.820 called Tight Watery or The Good Life on a Dollar a Day.
00:02:08.100 It was a kind of honors class at Alfred University where I work.
00:02:10.960 Although there were some sort of amusing parts to it,
00:02:14.040 like, you know, students learning how to cut each other's hair
00:02:16.720 and having a class banquet for $10 made entirely of Depression-era recipes,
00:02:22.040 there was actually quite a lot of philosophy in it.
00:02:24.020 We read Epicurus and we read Thoreau and we read the Stoics
00:02:27.600 and some contemporary critics of consumerism and this sort of thing.
00:02:32.440 And that got me really thinking on these questions.
00:02:34.440 But when I started writing about why we should consider frugality a virtue
00:02:39.160 or why philosophers have considered frugality a virtue,
00:02:41.900 I found it was very difficult to separate frugality from simple living in general.
00:02:46.840 And so the topic of the book became broader.
00:02:49.600 Okay. So, as you mentioned, philosophers have been thinking about this idea of frugality,
00:02:55.060 simple living, going all the way back to Plato and Socrates.
00:02:59.700 So, when they talked about it, frugality or simple living,
00:03:03.640 like, what exactly do they mean?
00:03:05.760 Because I think the way we describe it, in a lot of ways it's probably the same today,
00:03:09.720 but I'm sure they had some different implications for that word back then.
00:03:14.780 I think that there's one aspect of frugality that has remained constant for a long time
00:03:20.120 from Plato to Ben Franklin and today.
00:03:23.620 And that is the idea of living frugally, meaning being fiscally prudent,
00:03:28.180 living within your means, not getting into debt,
00:03:30.560 not indulging in gross extravagances, which are going to land you in trouble later on.
00:03:34.500 And, you know, most philosophers would advocate being fiscally prudent,
00:03:40.940 but then most financial advisors will too, most people with common sense would.
00:03:45.320 And in a way, although that's the first thing people think of,
00:03:47.920 perhaps, when they think about frugality, it may be the least interesting aspect.
00:03:53.320 What's more interesting is where you're talking about frugality and simple living
00:03:57.540 in answer to the question, what kind of life should I lead?
00:04:02.500 And, you know, for anyone who's read Plato's Republic,
00:04:05.240 you'd remember that he says there that we're talking here, he says,
00:04:08.400 about the most important question of all, which is how we ought to live.
00:04:12.060 And so really it's a question about lifestyle and the choices you make.
00:04:15.680 And one kind of lifestyle is to live simply in the sense of not just of staying with any means,
00:04:24.180 but living cheaply, enjoying simple pleasures, being self-sufficient,
00:04:28.940 perhaps practicing a certain amount of self-denial, perhaps staying close to nature.
00:04:34.580 And all those senses, in the first chapter of the book,
00:04:37.420 I look at many senses of the word, many senses of the concept of simple living.
00:04:42.900 And I think that they kind of form a family or a cluster
00:04:46.860 that tend to hang together in a lot of people's mind.
00:04:49.280 Yeah, what I thought was surprising as you went back through the history
00:04:52.460 of the philosophy of simple living and frugality,
00:04:55.000 is that everyone, even thousands of years ago,
00:04:58.000 were pining for this age when things were simpler, right?
00:05:02.600 We think that's sort of a new thing, but like, no,
00:05:04.760 even the ancient Greeks were looking for that idyllic age.
00:05:08.800 Yeah, as they say, nostalgia is not what it used to be, right?
00:05:11.520 Yeah, it's an interesting thing that back two and a half thousand years ago,
00:05:15.920 people were looking back to a time when people were more honest,
00:05:20.100 they lived more simply, closer to the earth,
00:05:22.480 they were less pretentious, less affected,
00:05:25.200 less bothered about material possessions, luxury and extravagance,
00:05:28.740 and that kind of thing.
00:05:29.820 So, as they say, you know, the more things change,
00:05:32.300 the more things remain the same.
00:05:33.820 So are there any schools of philosophy
00:05:35.560 that have particularly pushed frugality and simple living as a way of life?
00:05:40.160 Yes, and I think it's important to mention here that in ancient times,
00:05:44.740 particularly we're talking here largely about Western philosophy,
00:05:48.360 in Western philosophy you have the Greeks and the Romans,
00:05:51.480 and for them philosophy was very much a matter of philosophizing about life.
00:05:56.080 The central question was how should we live?
00:05:58.500 What are the best lifestyles?
00:05:59.900 And if you joined a philosophical school like the Stoics or the Cynics
00:06:04.680 or something like that,
00:06:05.960 then it wasn't just a matter of holding certain beliefs,
00:06:08.320 you would practice certain practices.
00:06:10.160 You'd talk the talk and walk the walk.
00:06:12.860 Probably the first school that really advocated frugality in a big way
00:06:16.380 was the Cynics, represented by people like Diogenes,
00:06:20.060 who famously lived in a barrel and with virtually no material possessions.
00:06:25.100 There were the Epicureans,
00:06:26.720 who they were more self-indulgent than the Cynics,
00:06:30.740 but still they lived simply.
00:06:32.220 They greatly valued living communally, friendship,
00:06:36.340 just having simple meals with good friends,
00:06:38.780 and staying out of business like politics, which just makes you depressed.
00:06:43.360 Then the Stoics later on, particularly the Roman Stoics,
00:06:46.480 also very much advocated simple living and frugality
00:06:51.020 as a way of toughening yourself to prepare for adversity,
00:06:54.640 as a way of avoiding disappointment and that sort of thing.
00:06:58.000 And then this continued on even throughout Western history,
00:07:01.260 like Rousseau at the Enlightenment era
00:07:03.200 really hit this simple living idea hard.
00:07:05.840 Right.
00:07:06.600 Now, Rousseau is not necessarily representative of the Enlightenment.
00:07:10.820 He's a little bit more representative of Romanticism
00:07:12.980 because he particularly opposes what is natural
00:07:16.580 with what is the result of civilization.
00:07:19.920 And he tends to be very critical of the so-called fruits
00:07:23.960 and benefits of civilization and thinks that we need to
00:07:27.040 kind of get back to nature to some extent.
00:07:29.060 Of course, Thoreau is in that tradition too,
00:07:32.260 along with a lot of other Romantic writers.
00:07:34.780 So, yeah, right up to the present day,
00:07:37.080 and you've got Edward Abbey,
00:07:39.000 and you've got plenty of people today
00:07:41.420 who also advocate in one way or another
00:07:43.800 a more simple lifestyle,
00:07:45.900 a kind of movement back to nature.
00:07:48.100 And you see it in all aspects of life,
00:07:49.880 in the houses people live in,
00:07:51.500 in the kind of food they eat,
00:07:52.940 in the kind of work they do,
00:07:54.620 the clothes they wear.
00:07:56.060 So, throughout Western history,
00:07:57.720 frugality has been pushed.
00:07:59.020 And the reason why is because
00:08:00.100 a lot of philosophers viewed luxury
00:08:02.340 and extravagance as moral failings.
00:08:05.700 And it's something to avoid.
00:08:06.680 Why is extravagance and luxury
00:08:08.600 viewed as something that can hurt the soul?
00:08:11.140 Yeah, I think that it's a very interesting question, that.
00:08:14.200 And I think that one reason is that it's associated,
00:08:20.060 perhaps, with luxury is associated with softness.
00:08:22.720 In the book, I mentioned the Spartans,
00:08:25.200 who were famous for their austere lifestyle
00:08:28.140 and for their practice of really toughening people up
00:08:30.920 in a big way,
00:08:31.840 so that they would make great warriors.
00:08:33.940 For most of human history,
00:08:35.360 life has been pretty uncertain for many people.
00:08:37.800 They were subject to diseases,
00:08:39.700 subject to shortages, hardship, famine,
00:08:41.800 the oppression, war, this kind of thing.
00:08:45.000 And so, it was a pretty useful character trait
00:08:48.000 to be able to stand up to adversity
00:08:50.140 and not be crushed by it.
00:08:51.820 I mean, by comparison,
00:08:53.100 our lives are relatively comfortable
00:08:55.180 and relatively safe,
00:08:56.660 even though, of course, we still have poverty,
00:08:58.500 we still have deprivation and injustice in some...
00:09:02.760 But in a sense,
00:09:03.720 we don't have to be quite as tough
00:09:06.200 as people used to be, I don't think.
00:09:08.400 I mean, sometimes life will throw us a curveball
00:09:11.080 and we do need to be resilient.
00:09:13.520 But the curveballs we get today
00:09:15.860 are rather less than people used to get on the whole, I think.
00:09:19.360 And so, that's one reason,
00:09:20.680 the issue of toughness and softness.
00:09:23.460 I think another thing is simply,
00:09:25.800 a slightly deeper issue,
00:09:27.440 is having sound values.
00:09:28.700 The thing about luxury and extravagance
00:09:30.340 is that if you go in for those,
00:09:33.240 then you start to become obsessed
00:09:36.020 with material possessions,
00:09:37.360 with money, with wealth,
00:09:38.440 with competition,
00:09:40.280 with, you know,
00:09:40.880 being superior to neighbours
00:09:42.060 or to others.
00:09:43.920 And that can incite other traits
00:09:45.960 like envy or resentment
00:09:47.400 or bitterness or frustration,
00:09:49.540 unsatisfied desires.
00:09:50.900 And I think that there's...
00:09:52.540 Those are some of the main reasons.
00:09:54.600 In the book,
00:09:55.120 I mentioned that
00:09:55.940 a lot of the colleges
00:09:58.140 in the United States
00:09:59.140 were set up in rural locations
00:10:00.740 precisely because people thought
00:10:02.320 that these rural locations
00:10:03.760 would keep people away from temptation.
00:10:05.800 A bit like the location of monasteries.
00:10:08.560 Do you think there's a bit
00:10:09.440 of sour grapes going on there too?
00:10:11.100 Like sort of a Nietzschean inversion
00:10:12.560 of values where, you know,
00:10:15.560 that's extravagance.
00:10:16.600 All that great stuff is bad.
00:10:17.860 This plain living,
00:10:18.920 that's the good stuff.
00:10:20.860 Yeah.
00:10:21.360 Well, it could be.
00:10:22.360 Someone like Nietzsche
00:10:23.320 or someone else might say,
00:10:24.860 well, yeah,
00:10:25.260 these philosophers,
00:10:26.260 they basically,
00:10:27.440 because they're no good
00:10:28.640 at making money
00:10:29.660 or perhaps because they're no good
00:10:31.020 at really living
00:10:31.760 interesting, adventurous lifestyles,
00:10:33.440 you know,
00:10:33.740 that's not their sort of thing.
00:10:36.380 And so they praise to the hilt
00:10:38.380 the kind of life
00:10:39.460 that they're most comfortable living
00:10:40.660 or the kind of life
00:10:41.600 that they are capable of living.
00:10:43.160 That would be,
00:10:44.200 Nietzsche does make
00:10:44.920 that kind of accusation,
00:10:46.700 although he himself,
00:10:47.820 of course,
00:10:48.320 is a classic example
00:10:49.300 of a philosopher
00:10:49.860 living a very,
00:10:50.700 very frugal,
00:10:51.420 simple lifestyle.
00:10:53.000 I think that,
00:10:54.280 I don't know,
00:10:55.100 there's something to that.
00:10:56.400 There's also another aspect,
00:10:58.560 which is that simple living
00:11:00.800 is also associated
00:11:01.780 quite strongly
00:11:03.100 in many people's minds
00:11:04.000 with wisdom.
00:11:05.140 And this is a very interesting question
00:11:06.540 because if you ask
00:11:07.340 what is wisdom,
00:11:08.720 I would say that wisdom,
00:11:10.320 more than anything else,
00:11:11.340 is having sound values.
00:11:13.280 It's knowing what's important
00:11:14.880 and what's not.
00:11:16.540 And if you go back
00:11:17.480 to Plato and Socrates,
00:11:18.600 I mean,
00:11:18.960 and the Stoics and the rest,
00:11:20.340 their basic argument is
00:11:22.220 wisdom is all about
00:11:23.480 having sound values.
00:11:24.860 What matters to them,
00:11:26.320 Plato and Socrates,
00:11:27.080 is being moral,
00:11:28.680 being a virtuous person.
00:11:29.740 What matters to Jesus
00:11:31.700 is spirituality
00:11:33.640 and a relationship to God.
00:11:35.380 What matters to the Buddha
00:11:36.240 is enlightenment.
00:11:37.800 These are all kinds of wisdom,
00:11:39.300 forms of wisdom,
00:11:40.260 luxury and extravagant
00:11:41.140 tend to draw one away
00:11:42.600 from those things
00:11:43.760 towards false values,
00:11:45.680 you know,
00:11:45.900 the value of material possessions
00:11:47.160 of wealth and domination
00:11:49.260 and that kind of thing.
00:11:50.500 So frugality has been called
00:11:51.860 a virtue.
00:11:52.720 Ben Franklin listed it
00:11:53.860 as one of his 13 virtues
00:11:55.140 he followed as a young man.
00:11:57.520 But virtues,
00:11:58.480 as we remember
00:11:59.160 from Aristotle and Plato,
00:12:00.480 there are things
00:12:01.400 that are good
00:12:01.900 in and of themselves,
00:12:03.300 like things like justice,
00:12:04.880 beauty,
00:12:05.800 things like that.
00:12:06.920 But whenever I think
00:12:07.700 of frugality,
00:12:08.540 I always think of the benefits
00:12:10.080 that frugality provides me.
00:12:12.460 So these are like
00:12:12.940 prudential reasons, right?
00:12:14.280 Like I save more money,
00:12:15.460 I become more self-reliant,
00:12:16.480 et cetera.
00:12:17.120 So what's the case
00:12:18.180 that frugality
00:12:19.100 and simplicity
00:12:20.140 are inherently good?
00:12:21.720 Okay,
00:12:22.240 I'd have to say
00:12:22.940 you're asking the wrong person
00:12:24.540 that question
00:12:25.040 and I'll tell you why.
00:12:25.840 Because that view,
00:12:27.880 the view that
00:12:28.460 something is inherently good,
00:12:30.720 a certain character trait
00:12:31.980 is inherently good.
00:12:33.560 That is a view
00:12:34.820 in philosophy
00:12:35.240 known as virtue ethics.
00:12:36.400 It's where you say,
00:12:37.220 you know,
00:12:37.420 what really matters
00:12:38.120 is having certain virtues,
00:12:40.160 certain character traits
00:12:40.960 that are inherently good.
00:12:42.340 And I'm not terribly
00:12:43.480 sympathetic to that view.
00:12:45.100 I'm more of what
00:12:46.380 philosophers call
00:12:47.140 a utilitarian.
00:12:48.040 I think what is really good
00:12:49.560 in the world
00:12:50.220 is happiness,
00:12:51.940 pleasure,
00:12:52.680 well-being,
00:12:53.160 self-fulfillment,
00:12:55.320 self-realization,
00:12:56.540 and that kind of thing.
00:12:57.240 These don't have to be
00:12:58.160 bland.
00:13:00.720 They don't have to be simple.
00:13:02.120 They can be complex.
00:13:03.420 There's plenty of place
00:13:04.780 in a good life,
00:13:05.680 in a happy life
00:13:06.860 for pain
00:13:08.480 and unhappiness,
00:13:09.700 actually.
00:13:10.340 And so I wouldn't want
00:13:11.680 to make it
00:13:13.140 uncomplicated.
00:13:14.860 I think a fulfilling life
00:13:16.760 can be a very complicated thing.
00:13:18.360 But I think that
00:13:20.840 all the traits
00:13:21.620 that we think of
00:13:22.120 as virtues,
00:13:22.840 whether it's wisdom
00:13:23.560 or frugality
00:13:24.300 or generosity
00:13:26.340 or courage
00:13:28.040 or anything else
00:13:29.220 you want,
00:13:29.600 kindness and compassion,
00:13:31.100 I think that we call
00:13:31.940 them all good
00:13:32.580 because we think
00:13:33.700 that they in some way
00:13:34.760 promote human well-being,
00:13:37.140 human satisfaction,
00:13:38.280 human happiness.
00:13:39.260 So what are some
00:13:39.740 of those ways
00:13:40.840 that make us happy?
00:13:41.920 You mentioned a few
00:13:42.700 that make us happier,
00:13:44.320 produce flourishing,
00:13:45.920 makes us more self-reliant,
00:13:47.260 allows us to enjoy
00:13:48.220 simple pleasures.
00:13:49.780 Are there any other ways
00:13:50.920 that frugality
00:13:51.680 and simple living
00:13:52.380 can bring out
00:13:53.800 human flourishing?
00:13:54.980 Sure.
00:13:55.540 I think, you know,
00:13:56.220 the third chapter
00:13:57.340 of the book
00:13:57.560 is all about
00:13:58.000 the association
00:13:59.260 between living frugal
00:14:00.860 and simply
00:14:01.300 and being happy.
00:14:02.780 I think that there's
00:14:03.620 a whole battery
00:14:04.520 of arguments,
00:14:05.680 but it might be good
00:14:06.920 to mention
00:14:07.820 just one or two.
00:14:09.020 I think one of the
00:14:09.700 most interesting ones
00:14:10.700 that's actually relevant
00:14:11.900 to today's political
00:14:13.400 and economic situation
00:14:14.240 is this,
00:14:15.240 that if you can make,
00:14:16.400 if you can get by
00:14:17.980 on a few things,
00:14:19.760 if you can reduce
00:14:20.600 your basic needs
00:14:21.640 and live simply,
00:14:23.200 then you actually
00:14:23.780 don't need to work
00:14:24.680 as much,
00:14:25.280 which means you can
00:14:25.860 enjoy more leisure.
00:14:27.040 This is very much
00:14:27.660 an Epicurean
00:14:28.440 kind of argument,
00:14:29.300 going back to
00:14:29.700 Epicurus' philosophy,
00:14:31.360 as he put it forward
00:14:32.700 with his friends
00:14:33.260 in the garden
00:14:33.860 that he grew.
00:14:35.460 And, you know,
00:14:36.220 you, at the moment
00:14:37.160 in our society,
00:14:38.320 we actually work,
00:14:39.140 many people work
00:14:39.820 quite hard.
00:14:40.420 Many people work
00:14:41.160 harder than they
00:14:42.100 actually want to work,
00:14:43.280 but we're actually
00:14:43.920 entering an interesting
00:14:45.080 and perhaps very difficult
00:14:46.480 time where machines
00:14:48.200 are taking over
00:14:49.520 from human labor
00:14:50.520 to quite an extent.
00:14:52.280 And in some ways,
00:14:53.360 you can imagine
00:14:54.020 a future not too distant
00:14:55.320 where there really
00:14:56.560 is a need for people
00:14:57.680 to work less
00:14:58.800 and therefore find a way,
00:15:01.540 I mean,
00:15:01.760 maybe they'll earn
00:15:02.440 less money,
00:15:03.200 and so they need to
00:15:04.020 find a way of living
00:15:05.020 on less,
00:15:05.800 yet enjoying life
00:15:06.820 on less.
00:15:07.580 And that might,
00:15:08.200 that's a matter of
00:15:09.460 learning to perhaps
00:15:11.260 cut back on the
00:15:12.220 extravagances
00:15:12.780 and on the luxuries,
00:15:13.920 but also a way
00:15:14.960 of making good use
00:15:16.160 of your leisure time.
00:15:18.080 So I think that's
00:15:18.720 one of the most
00:15:19.140 important arguments
00:15:19.860 for simple living,
00:15:20.560 which is it is a way
00:15:21.720 of actually increasing
00:15:22.500 your leisure.
00:15:23.220 Another argument,
00:15:24.200 it fosters a certain
00:15:25.200 independence
00:15:25.860 and self-sufficiency.
00:15:27.280 In ancient times,
00:15:28.480 when people thought
00:15:29.140 about self-sufficiency
00:15:30.560 and independence,
00:15:31.800 the philosophers,
00:15:32.740 what they really had
00:15:33.400 in mind was
00:15:33.960 not having to flatter
00:15:35.400 people,
00:15:35.880 not having to fawn
00:15:36.760 to your superiors,
00:15:37.660 not having to be
00:15:39.220 in someone else's
00:15:40.040 pay kind of thing
00:15:40.860 and always,
00:15:41.580 you know,
00:15:42.160 sort of sucking up
00:15:43.960 to them.
00:15:44.760 I think that nowadays,
00:15:46.100 though,
00:15:46.380 it's interesting
00:15:47.120 that as we,
00:15:48.980 as our lives
00:15:49.840 have become
00:15:50.380 in some ways
00:15:50.980 further removed
00:15:52.860 from the basic
00:15:54.640 means of producing
00:15:56.220 the means of life,
00:15:57.080 from growing food
00:15:57.960 and making clothes
00:15:58.820 and this kind of thing.
00:15:59.660 And so in that sense,
00:16:01.120 you could say
00:16:01.840 that we live
00:16:02.360 rather alienated lives
00:16:03.500 now,
00:16:03.900 rather distant
00:16:05.060 from the fundamental
00:16:06.320 means of production.
00:16:07.940 Yet there's a tremendous
00:16:09.160 interest in people
00:16:10.040 going back to doing
00:16:11.160 things like
00:16:11.720 growing their own
00:16:12.540 gardens
00:16:12.920 and knitting
00:16:13.840 their own sweaters
00:16:14.700 and just doing
00:16:16.340 things for themselves.
00:16:17.760 Doing things for yourself
00:16:18.880 is immensely satisfying
00:16:20.380 for many people.
00:16:21.500 You can probably tell
00:16:21.980 from my accent
00:16:22.500 I'm not originally
00:16:23.260 American,
00:16:23.900 I grew up in Britain
00:16:24.920 and one of the things
00:16:26.440 that has really
00:16:27.460 impressed me
00:16:28.180 in the United States
00:16:29.720 is how many
00:16:30.700 guys I know
00:16:31.980 who are
00:16:33.780 fantastically
00:16:34.580 self-sufficient.
00:16:36.120 If the,
00:16:36.360 you know,
00:16:36.540 the people who can
00:16:37.380 literally build houses,
00:16:39.300 including the plumbing
00:16:40.160 and the electricity
00:16:40.900 and the foundations
00:16:41.820 and the roof
00:16:42.560 and the walls
00:16:44.080 and everything,
00:16:44.960 most of my friends
00:16:46.300 and family in Britain
00:16:47.380 by comparison
00:16:48.140 are lamentably
00:16:49.700 unself-sufficient.
00:16:51.200 I think it's a,
00:16:51.720 I think it's a very
00:16:52.520 interesting feature
00:16:53.780 of American culture
00:16:54.780 is the,
00:16:55.720 the,
00:16:56.120 the,
00:16:56.640 the important,
00:16:58.120 the value that's placed
00:16:59.000 on people being capable
00:17:00.480 of that kind of thing.
00:17:01.480 Yeah,
00:17:01.740 and in that
00:17:02.320 self-sufficiency section
00:17:03.620 you talked about how,
00:17:05.460 you talked about Hegel's
00:17:06.420 like master-slave,
00:17:07.820 you know,
00:17:08.120 metaphor that
00:17:08.920 the master,
00:17:09.880 you know,
00:17:10.220 ends up kind of like
00:17:11.160 in charge at first,
00:17:12.060 but he begins,
00:17:13.440 you know,
00:17:13.780 delegating so many tasks
00:17:15.060 to the slave
00:17:15.580 that eventually the slave
00:17:16.780 is in charge.
00:17:17.580 And I've noticed that,
00:17:18.520 that kind of dichotomy
00:17:19.440 play out in my own life
00:17:20.260 where I,
00:17:20.600 I outsource so many things
00:17:22.300 to other people.
00:17:23.240 I'm not saying these people
00:17:23.900 are slaves,
00:17:24.280 but just outsourcing
00:17:24.920 to other people
00:17:25.380 who do this work.
00:17:26.080 And like,
00:17:26.840 I realized,
00:17:27.620 boy,
00:17:27.800 I'm not really in charge here.
00:17:29.040 Like,
00:17:29.200 I wouldn't be able
00:17:30.420 to do this for myself.
00:17:31.300 These people are,
00:17:32.100 are in charge,
00:17:32.820 you know,
00:17:33.000 in a way.
00:17:33.620 No,
00:17:33.820 and,
00:17:33.940 and of course,
00:17:34.440 one of the things
00:17:35.080 is that the,
00:17:36.640 the role of technology
00:17:37.580 in our lives
00:17:38.220 makes the whole business
00:17:39.580 of self-sufficiency
00:17:40.400 rather complicated.
00:17:42.260 For example,
00:17:43.160 I think,
00:17:43.580 I honestly,
00:17:44.120 I'm not a great,
00:17:45.160 I'm not great at car mechanics,
00:17:46.700 but I do a little bit.
00:17:48.040 But it might,
00:17:48.840 it seems to me
00:17:49.320 that it used to be
00:17:49.960 an awful lot easier
00:17:50.780 to fix your own car
00:17:51.880 than now
00:17:52.360 because so many things
00:17:53.220 on your car now
00:17:53.880 need a computerized,
00:17:55.940 computerized check
00:17:57.400 with fancy equipment
00:17:58.540 that you're just not
00:17:59.240 going to have at home.
00:18:00.540 And so,
00:18:01.500 it's almost like
00:18:02.220 the,
00:18:02.520 the technological trends
00:18:03.760 almost force us
00:18:05.220 in some ways
00:18:05.720 to become
00:18:06.240 less self-sufficient.
00:18:07.780 Yet,
00:18:07.960 on the other hand,
00:18:08.580 some technology
00:18:09.180 makes us more self-sufficient.
00:18:10.280 So,
00:18:10.460 for instance,
00:18:10.920 now when,
00:18:11.540 when we take photos
00:18:12.360 with a digital camera,
00:18:13.240 we don't send them away
00:18:14.000 to be processed,
00:18:14.700 we just process them ourselves.
00:18:16.180 But we process them
00:18:16.980 on our computer,
00:18:18.320 which of course
00:18:18.760 we haven't built ourselves
00:18:19.540 usually.
00:18:20.180 We've just,
00:18:21.040 you know,
00:18:21.540 so we're heavily dependent
00:18:23.340 on the technology,
00:18:24.880 but in some ways
00:18:25.820 the technology
00:18:27.040 allows us
00:18:28.140 to be more self-sufficient
00:18:29.080 just like a washing machine
00:18:30.280 allows you to wash
00:18:30.900 your own clothes
00:18:31.440 rather than send them out
00:18:32.280 to the washing woman.
00:18:33.960 Well,
00:18:34.020 one issue you bring up
00:18:34.760 about frugality,
00:18:35.680 sort of the problems
00:18:36.660 of frugality
00:18:37.300 in our modern world
00:18:38.500 is that,
00:18:39.080 you just mentioned one of it,
00:18:40.000 it's hard to be frugal
00:18:41.640 in some ways
00:18:42.580 in our sort of
00:18:43.320 dynamic,
00:18:44.560 interconnected,
00:18:45.300 specialized,
00:18:46.100 tech-infused
00:18:46.820 economy that we have.
00:18:48.100 And I've noticed
00:18:48.540 in my own life
00:18:49.040 when I try to,
00:18:50.160 you know,
00:18:50.380 follow the traditionally
00:18:51.200 frugal path,
00:18:52.000 I'm going to do it myself,
00:18:52.980 I end up actually
00:18:54.460 spending more money,
00:18:55.840 more time,
00:18:57.480 and you make the seven trips
00:18:58.580 to Home Depot
00:18:59.220 over and over again
00:19:00.260 because you got
00:19:01.220 the wrong part.
00:19:02.480 So,
00:19:02.760 I mean,
00:19:03.020 is it becoming harder
00:19:04.120 to live frugally
00:19:05.460 in our sort of
00:19:06.580 modern world?
00:19:07.140 I think
00:19:08.140 in some ways,
00:19:09.800 yes.
00:19:10.140 I think
00:19:10.840 on the one hand,
00:19:11.700 we do have
00:19:12.400 more options
00:19:13.960 in some ways,
00:19:15.160 but it's a matter of,
00:19:16.960 you know,
00:19:17.360 how much you want to be
00:19:18.300 on the grid
00:19:18.800 or off the grid.
00:19:19.960 A really good example
00:19:21.080 is,
00:19:21.800 let's say,
00:19:22.240 having a smartphone.
00:19:23.660 I mean,
00:19:23.920 having a smartphone,
00:19:25.200 obviously,
00:19:25.600 no one thought about that
00:19:26.500 30 years ago.
00:19:27.680 Now,
00:19:28.140 if you're
00:19:28.940 an ordinary person
00:19:30.520 with a,
00:19:31.020 you know,
00:19:31.520 a professional kind of job
00:19:32.880 living in a city,
00:19:34.020 it's pretty hard to manage
00:19:35.080 without a smartphone.
00:19:35.740 It's expected.
00:19:37.080 If you're applying
00:19:37.920 for a job
00:19:38.560 and,
00:19:39.180 you know,
00:19:39.480 to not have a smartphone
00:19:40.360 now when you're
00:19:40.940 in the business
00:19:41.720 of running around
00:19:42.280 applying for jobs
00:19:42.980 or something
00:19:43.400 would be like
00:19:46.120 not having an address.
00:19:47.460 You know,
00:19:47.720 if you go to college,
00:19:49.660 let's say,
00:19:50.760 you know,
00:19:51.180 I'm a college teacher
00:19:52.060 and all the students
00:19:52.920 have phones,
00:19:55.160 you know,
00:19:55.340 cell phones,
00:19:55.980 usually smartphones now,
00:19:57.360 and to not have one
00:19:58.340 would be to be
00:19:59.260 completely cut out of the loop.
00:20:01.100 You wouldn't know
00:20:01.600 what was going on.
00:20:02.320 You'd never get any
00:20:02.900 invitations to anything.
00:20:04.220 And so,
00:20:04.840 you're virtually
00:20:05.440 virtually forced.
00:20:06.480 There's a wonderful phrase
00:20:07.560 by Juliette Shaw,
00:20:08.740 a social critic
00:20:10.280 that I like,
00:20:11.700 and she said,
00:20:12.660 you know,
00:20:12.900 the old phrase is
00:20:13.980 necessity is the mother
00:20:15.060 of invention.
00:20:16.060 She said invention
00:20:16.780 is the mother of necessity
00:20:17.920 in the modern world
00:20:18.960 because,
00:20:20.220 you know,
00:20:20.440 people invent things
00:20:21.340 and at first
00:20:22.720 they're luxuries,
00:20:23.720 like remote controls
00:20:24.940 on TVs used to be luxuries,
00:20:26.460 but who'd buy a TV
00:20:27.140 without a remote control now
00:20:28.420 or an answering machine
00:20:29.860 or,
00:20:30.480 except the answering machines
00:20:31.460 are on the way out
00:20:31.940 because now people
00:20:33.040 are getting rid of the landlines.
00:20:34.020 You really have a hard time
00:20:38.140 if you don't keep up
00:20:39.720 with the technology.
00:20:40.840 But the technology
00:20:41.440 costs money
00:20:42.080 and it's expensive
00:20:42.880 and it's complicated
00:20:43.820 and it breaks down
00:20:45.000 on you sometimes.
00:20:46.060 One argument you made
00:20:46.880 in the book
00:20:47.380 was that,
00:20:48.060 you know,
00:20:48.540 we praise frugality
00:20:49.640 and we publicly
00:20:50.680 exue extravagance,
00:20:52.340 right?
00:20:52.440 We look down upon it.
00:20:53.440 But you point out
00:20:53.940 there's actually
00:20:54.500 some great benefits
00:20:55.660 to extravagant living
00:20:57.140 that we all benefit from
00:20:58.500 as a culture.
00:21:00.120 What are some
00:21:00.560 of those benefits?
00:21:01.040 Well,
00:21:01.880 the most obvious thing
00:21:03.280 when you think about it
00:21:04.180 is just think about
00:21:05.980 where you go
00:21:06.560 if you're on holiday,
00:21:07.440 where you go as a tourist.
00:21:09.060 You know,
00:21:09.260 if you go to Europe,
00:21:10.240 let's say,
00:21:10.760 you'd go to see
00:21:11.920 the Renaissance art
00:21:13.280 of Florence.
00:21:15.180 You'd go to see
00:21:16.320 perhaps the Sistine Chapel
00:21:17.520 in the Vatican.
00:21:18.420 You might go to see
00:21:19.140 the Palace at Versailles.
00:21:20.940 Further afield,
00:21:21.620 you might go to
00:21:21.960 the Taj Mahal
00:21:23.040 or something.
00:21:23.580 What are these?
00:21:24.320 These are all
00:21:24.920 basically monuments
00:21:25.780 to the extravagance
00:21:26.980 of long dead fat cats.
00:21:28.160 I mean,
00:21:28.540 that's what they are.
00:21:29.280 They're fantastic works
00:21:31.340 of art and architecture
00:21:32.580 that were very expensive
00:21:34.040 to produce.
00:21:35.080 But we don't now wish
00:21:36.120 that those people
00:21:36.760 had lived frugally.
00:21:37.940 You know,
00:21:38.080 the people who hired
00:21:39.260 Haydn and Mozart
00:21:41.600 and people like that
00:21:42.720 as court musicians
00:21:43.680 or as commissioned
00:21:44.500 their musical works,
00:21:45.820 we don't wish
00:21:46.320 they'd lived more frugally.
00:21:47.400 We're glad that they
00:21:48.200 hired these musicians.
00:21:49.560 We're glad that they
00:21:50.160 commissioned the works.
00:21:52.100 And so,
00:21:53.300 you know,
00:21:53.780 one way of putting it
00:21:54.440 is, you know,
00:21:55.040 extravagance produces
00:21:56.000 the stuff of culture,
00:21:56.900 which we're all grateful for.
00:21:58.320 We don't really,
00:21:59.300 I mean,
00:21:59.620 Socrates in the Republic
00:22:00.640 fantasizes about
00:22:01.740 everyone sitting around
00:22:02.620 on logs just,
00:22:03.640 you know,
00:22:03.940 drinking water
00:22:04.620 and having philosophical
00:22:05.820 conversations.
00:22:06.940 But most of us,
00:22:08.320 you know,
00:22:08.560 as his interlocutors
00:22:09.420 say in the Republic,
00:22:10.420 that sounds a bit
00:22:10.980 boring, Socrates.
00:22:12.000 I mean,
00:22:12.180 could we have a bit more?
00:22:13.380 And most of us
00:22:14.140 actually do rather relish
00:22:15.920 the fruits of civilization,
00:22:18.080 which are also
00:22:18.780 the fruits of extravagance.
00:22:20.440 On a more personal level,
00:22:22.320 if I say,
00:22:23.840 stand up in front
00:22:24.460 of my class of students
00:22:25.560 and I describe,
00:22:27.880 let's say,
00:22:28.560 the ideal life
00:22:29.340 according to Epicurus,
00:22:30.800 where you basically
00:22:32.180 live in a house
00:22:33.260 with a nice garden,
00:22:34.340 growing some vegetables
00:22:35.120 and you live there
00:22:35.840 with friends
00:22:36.400 and every evening
00:22:37.460 you have a meal together
00:22:38.420 and you do a bit
00:22:39.880 of writing
00:22:40.360 and you do a bit
00:22:41.340 of weeding
00:22:41.840 and you do a bit
00:22:42.420 of conversing
00:22:43.480 and you lounge around
00:22:44.240 in a hammock
00:22:44.680 and that's your life.
00:22:46.260 A lot of them would say
00:22:46.940 that's not what I want,
00:22:47.700 that's boring.
00:22:48.560 I want to travel,
00:22:49.980 I want to see things,
00:22:50.800 I want to do things,
00:22:51.700 I want to make things,
00:22:52.860 I want to get somewhere
00:22:54.760 and, you know,
00:22:55.640 in other words,
00:22:56.240 they've got a different vision,
00:22:58.000 a much more sort of active,
00:22:59.840 adventurous,
00:23:00.520 dynamic vision
00:23:01.260 of what the good life is
00:23:02.700 and that's because
00:23:04.120 we, in a way,
00:23:06.360 we live in modern times
00:23:07.700 where a lot of the basics
00:23:09.580 are taken care of.
00:23:11.160 For most people
00:23:11.940 throughout human history,
00:23:13.140 I think actually
00:23:13.880 a life where you avoided
00:23:15.400 famine, pestilence,
00:23:17.120 disease, plague,
00:23:18.440 war and depression
00:23:19.600 was a, you know,
00:23:20.840 and tragedy
00:23:21.320 was a pretty good life
00:23:22.400 but for most of us now,
00:23:23.760 it's not enough.
00:23:24.500 Most of us want,
00:23:25.240 we take all that for granted
00:23:26.460 that we're not going to die
00:23:27.380 in a famine or a plague
00:23:28.320 and we now want to do
00:23:30.280 more with our lives.
00:23:31.160 We want adventure
00:23:31.760 and excitement.
00:23:32.720 Yeah, I mean,
00:23:33.020 as I read your book,
00:23:34.180 I found myself thinking,
00:23:36.120 finding that frugality,
00:23:37.400 the concept of frugality
00:23:38.380 or simple living
00:23:38.920 was a lot more slippery
00:23:40.400 than we often think it is.
00:23:41.940 We often think it
00:23:42.400 very cut black and white
00:23:43.900 but it changes.
00:23:45.180 Like the concept
00:23:45.720 of frugality changes
00:23:46.700 based on our standard
00:23:47.440 of livings.
00:23:48.520 What's frugal,
00:23:49.660 you know,
00:23:49.900 a hundred years ago
00:23:50.600 is, you know,
00:23:51.620 just being a tightwad,
00:23:53.580 right, today.
00:23:55.200 But, and so,
00:23:55.860 there's a relevant,
00:23:56.940 there's, it is sort of relative.
00:23:58.380 I mean, for example,
00:23:59.580 sort of this,
00:24:00.680 the relativity of frugality
00:24:02.620 and extravagance,
00:24:03.560 you know,
00:24:03.740 like, say a person
00:24:05.340 who's making $50,000 a year
00:24:07.140 buys a $5,000 watch.
00:24:09.280 Well, we would say
00:24:09.840 that's not being frugal
00:24:10.880 but like if you make
00:24:11.700 $10 million a year,
00:24:13.420 you know,
00:24:13.660 a $5,000 watch
00:24:14.720 is a drop in the bucket.
00:24:16.200 It's like,
00:24:16.400 I think it'd be 0.05%
00:24:17.700 of income maybe.
00:24:18.800 But we still,
00:24:19.620 we would still think,
00:24:20.840 like I think on a gut level,
00:24:22.180 like that guy
00:24:23.480 with $10 million
00:24:24.200 buying the $5,000 watch,
00:24:25.980 well,
00:24:26.080 that's being extravagant.
00:24:27.460 What's going on there,
00:24:28.220 do you think?
00:24:29.100 I think what's going on
00:24:30.180 is there's two notions
00:24:31.600 of extravagance.
00:24:32.820 The millionaire
00:24:33.460 who buys the,
00:24:34.400 you know,
00:24:35.200 the expensive watch,
00:24:36.620 the $20,000 Rolex
00:24:37.840 or something,
00:24:38.420 they're not being extravagant
00:24:39.560 in the sense that
00:24:40.360 they are landing themselves
00:24:41.900 in debt
00:24:42.280 and it's all going to end
00:24:43.080 in tears.
00:24:44.360 No,
00:24:44.680 I mean,
00:24:45.060 they're filthy rich
00:24:46.000 and they can do,
00:24:46.860 you know,
00:24:47.080 they can buy
00:24:47.740 several Rolexes,
00:24:49.200 right?
00:24:49.740 But they're being extravagant
00:24:51.160 in another sense,
00:24:52.300 in the sense that
00:24:53.000 they're just throwing
00:24:54.860 the money around.
00:24:56.680 And there are two points,
00:24:58.500 two critical points
00:24:59.280 a lot of moral philosophers
00:25:00.220 would make,
00:25:00.920 and I'd make them too.
00:25:02.120 One is that
00:25:03.280 you could say
00:25:03.880 that money could be
00:25:04.780 much better spent
00:25:05.720 on,
00:25:06.140 you know,
00:25:06.420 more worthwhile things.
00:25:08.540 The other,
00:25:08.900 and that point is
00:25:09.580 made very often.
00:25:10.940 The other point though
00:25:11.580 is that
00:25:12.320 what does it say
00:25:13.100 about the person?
00:25:14.160 What does it say
00:25:14.780 about a person
00:25:15.500 that they,
00:25:16.340 they want to buy
00:25:18.200 a $20,000 watch?
00:25:19.740 I mean,
00:25:19.980 why do they want it?
00:25:21.460 What's the point?
00:25:22.740 Surely,
00:25:23.320 the point is,
00:25:24.420 there can only be
00:25:25.260 one point,
00:25:25.920 really,
00:25:26.480 and that is
00:25:27.040 to show off
00:25:28.160 to other people
00:25:28.580 how much money
00:25:29.020 they've got.
00:25:29.700 Because,
00:25:30.140 I mean,
00:25:30.400 they might make
00:25:31.040 other arguments.
00:25:31.740 They might say,
00:25:32.200 oh no,
00:25:32.520 it's just a beautiful
00:25:33.440 artifact and I enjoy
00:25:34.400 looking at it.
00:25:35.260 I'm inclined to say,
00:25:36.140 that's rubbish.
00:25:36.800 You basically,
00:25:37.640 you want to show off
00:25:38.260 how much money
00:25:38.680 you've got.
00:25:39.520 And,
00:25:39.780 and I think that
00:25:41.200 people are justifiably
00:25:42.880 reasonably suspicious
00:25:44.440 of that sort of motive.
00:25:45.720 So,
00:25:45.900 what kind of person
00:25:47.180 is it
00:25:47.640 who is so concerned
00:25:49.480 to display their wealth?
00:25:52.120 So,
00:25:52.320 we've talked about
00:25:52.800 some of,
00:25:53.120 a lot of the benefits
00:25:53.880 of frugality,
00:25:54.820 self-sufficiency,
00:25:56.220 just enjoying
00:25:56.820 simple pleasures,
00:25:58.380 things like that.
00:25:59.020 So,
00:25:59.260 I think people
00:25:59.880 intuitively understand
00:26:01.460 the benefits
00:26:02.340 of living
00:26:02.980 a simple lifestyle
00:26:03.880 and I think we all
00:26:04.680 yearn for it,
00:26:05.740 right?
00:26:05.860 I mean,
00:26:06.560 there's tons of books,
00:26:07.840 blogs,
00:26:08.820 magazines,
00:26:09.500 all about this topic
00:26:10.680 and how to live
00:26:11.420 this simple lifestyle,
00:26:13.160 which I think is
00:26:13.680 kind of ironic,
00:26:15.320 right?
00:26:15.600 There's like a whole,
00:26:16.380 there's a whole industry
00:26:17.260 dedicated to simple living.
00:26:18.700 Why is it like,
00:26:19.420 we know the benefits,
00:26:20.300 but we don't
00:26:21.380 live frugally.
00:26:22.340 So,
00:26:22.520 what's going on?
00:26:23.180 Why is there the disconnect
00:26:24.320 between desire
00:26:25.300 and behavior?
00:26:27.200 Yeah,
00:26:27.760 that is,
00:26:28.460 that's a bit of a million dollar
00:26:29.380 question.
00:26:30.500 I'll be quite honest,
00:26:31.520 in the book,
00:26:32.220 I mean,
00:26:32.500 that is one of the guiding
00:26:33.540 questions of the book.
00:26:34.420 The philosophers for two
00:26:35.480 and a half thousand years
00:26:36.220 have been telling us
00:26:36.960 to live frugally and simply.
00:26:38.700 Why have they had such a
00:26:40.020 hard time persuading
00:26:41.020 the majority of people?
00:26:43.060 And,
00:26:43.080 and to be quite honest,
00:26:44.880 I don't think that I come up
00:26:46.660 with a,
00:26:47.180 a single or simple answer
00:26:49.520 or complete answer
00:26:50.620 to that question.
00:26:51.740 I think that one reason
00:26:53.020 is that human beings
00:26:54.140 do have a tendency,
00:26:55.420 many of us,
00:26:56.280 all of us perhaps
00:26:56.960 sometimes,
00:26:57.780 to favor short-term goals
00:26:59.360 over long-term goals.
00:27:00.360 And so,
00:27:01.280 we see something we want,
00:27:03.340 whatever it is,
00:27:04.420 and we perhaps
00:27:05.740 can't really afford it,
00:27:07.420 but we'll do it anyway.
00:27:08.700 We'll get it anyway,
00:27:09.640 whether it's a house
00:27:10.520 or a holiday
00:27:11.060 or,
00:27:11.520 or a watch
00:27:12.460 or whatever.
00:27:13.480 In a sense,
00:27:14.280 and we,
00:27:14.780 we put our,
00:27:15.540 you know,
00:27:16.760 short-term goals
00:27:18.060 before our long-term goals
00:27:19.100 and,
00:27:19.900 you know,
00:27:20.160 and we just,
00:27:21.180 we just,
00:27:21.820 the short-term pleasures
00:27:23.740 have a tremendous
00:27:25.060 sort of magnetic
00:27:25.920 attraction to us.
00:27:27.020 That's one reason.
00:27:27.880 But the,
00:27:28.880 I think the deeper reason
00:27:29.800 is that we are
00:27:31.080 also products
00:27:32.340 of our culture.
00:27:33.220 We're shaped by our culture
00:27:34.520 to a very great extent
00:27:35.360 and it's very difficult
00:27:36.260 not to take on
00:27:37.420 the values of the culture.
00:27:39.240 People wear Rolex watches,
00:27:40.540 people buy houses
00:27:41.260 they can't afford
00:27:42.020 and we all do
00:27:43.020 these kind of things
00:27:43.660 to some extent
00:27:44.460 because we live
00:27:45.600 in a culture
00:27:46.080 where money really does
00:27:47.420 talk,
00:27:48.160 it really matters,
00:27:49.160 it's a fundamental value
00:27:50.380 and people who are rich
00:27:52.320 do,
00:27:53.140 they are looked up to,
00:27:54.080 they do enjoy
00:27:54.860 a kind of greater level
00:27:56.240 of respect and esteem,
00:27:57.740 they do have more power
00:27:59.260 and influence
00:27:59.940 on the whole
00:28:00.480 and,
00:28:00.800 you know,
00:28:02.180 it's one of the primary markers
00:28:03.640 of one's place
00:28:05.320 on the totem pole
00:28:06.160 just how much money you got
00:28:07.700 and if you want
00:28:09.480 other people to know
00:28:10.240 where you stand
00:28:10.580 on the totem pole,
00:28:11.440 you've got to spend the money.
00:28:12.860 So,
00:28:13.220 I think we,
00:28:14.160 you know,
00:28:14.320 it's very,
00:28:14.760 very difficult
00:28:15.140 to be immune
00:28:16.000 from the cultural pressures
00:28:17.340 of the society around us.
00:28:19.220 We talked about philosophers
00:28:20.280 who have praised,
00:28:22.120 you know,
00:28:22.500 simplicity
00:28:23.020 and frugal living
00:28:23.800 and extravagance
00:28:25.420 and luxury
00:28:26.200 are there any philosophers,
00:28:27.240 did these same philosophers
00:28:28.060 who praised frugality,
00:28:29.580 did they condemn
00:28:30.400 like miserliness as well
00:28:32.060 or were they like,
00:28:33.040 yeah,
00:28:33.180 let's go all in,
00:28:34.020 just like be super penny pincher,
00:28:36.480 Scrooge McDuck.
00:28:37.300 As usual,
00:28:38.340 Aristotle is the one
00:28:39.840 who goes for balance.
00:28:42.600 Someone once said,
00:28:43.880 you know,
00:28:44.080 as I get older,
00:28:44.920 I find Aristotle gets smarter
00:28:46.300 and it's really true,
00:28:48.180 you know,
00:28:48.760 Aristotle has a moral philosophy
00:28:50.980 where he often says
00:28:51.980 that the most desirable
00:28:53.440 character trait
00:28:54.260 is a sort of mean
00:28:56.100 between two extremes.
00:28:57.500 So,
00:28:58.080 you know,
00:28:58.600 courage lies between
00:29:00.460 recklessness,
00:29:01.500 which is kind of
00:29:02.140 too much courage,
00:29:02.820 courage without wisdom
00:29:03.720 and cowardice,
00:29:04.720 which is a vice.
00:29:05.620 He goes through a lot
00:29:06.240 of virtues like that.
00:29:07.180 Now,
00:29:07.340 he actually does praise
00:29:09.380 in a way extravagance.
00:29:10.600 That is,
00:29:11.240 he condemns miserliness.
00:29:12.760 Miserliness is a failing.
00:29:14.660 It's a moral failing.
00:29:15.840 But the extreme of extravagance
00:29:17.880 is profligacy.
00:29:19.500 It's where you're just
00:29:20.000 throwing money around
00:29:20.960 right at the center
00:29:21.860 and that's foolish.
00:29:24.080 And so,
00:29:24.800 between those
00:29:25.960 would be a proper,
00:29:28.100 not extravagance,
00:29:29.020 but a proper generosity,
00:29:30.640 right?
00:29:30.820 A liberality,
00:29:31.860 a sort of,
00:29:32.320 you don't put so much value
00:29:33.520 on money
00:29:33.900 that you're tight-fisted
00:29:35.660 with it.
00:29:36.320 You show a proper generosity
00:29:37.500 at the same time.
00:29:38.300 You're not stupid about it.
00:29:40.020 When it comes to
00:29:40.980 what you might call extravagance,
00:29:43.200 Aristotle does praise
00:29:44.760 what he calls magnificence.
00:29:46.480 And this is a very
00:29:47.220 interesting concept.
00:29:47.960 he says most people
00:29:50.640 can't practice magnificence.
00:29:52.160 Magnificence requires you
00:29:53.180 to be one of the
00:29:53.980 very wealthy.
00:29:55.020 You've got to be in the 1%.
00:29:56.360 The parsimoniousness
00:30:00.180 would be where
00:30:01.140 you've got tons of money
00:30:02.120 but you're really cheap about it.
00:30:03.720 You really still
00:30:04.660 don't do anything with it.
00:30:06.200 You just hoard it.
00:30:07.380 But on the other hand,
00:30:08.760 the bad extreme
00:30:10.620 at the other end
00:30:11.240 would be a kind of
00:30:12.260 vulgar extravagance
00:30:13.820 where you just sort of
00:30:15.680 make vulgar displays
00:30:17.460 of how wealthy you are.
00:30:19.040 What's in the middle
00:30:19.800 is something like
00:30:21.020 in Aristotle's days
00:30:22.440 someone, for instance,
00:30:23.860 providing funds
00:30:24.980 for the building
00:30:25.720 of a public temple
00:30:26.740 or providing funds
00:30:28.240 to help pay
00:30:29.580 for a sports event
00:30:31.200 or something like that.
00:30:32.240 And today,
00:30:32.740 you might think
00:30:33.260 of philanthropists
00:30:34.240 who give a lot of money
00:30:36.460 to worthy causes
00:30:37.560 like attacking,
00:30:39.420 you know,
00:30:39.620 fighting diseases
00:30:40.320 or for that matter
00:30:41.300 sponsoring museums,
00:30:43.260 endowing universities
00:30:44.140 and that kind of thing.
00:30:45.200 Aristotle is one
00:30:46.720 of the people
00:30:47.240 who says,
00:30:47.860 yeah,
00:30:48.180 that's a virtue
00:30:49.260 although most people
00:30:50.120 can't practice it.
00:30:51.100 As you've been thinking about
00:30:52.380 and you've written this book,
00:30:54.340 how do you find
00:30:54.900 your approach
00:30:55.320 to frugality
00:30:55.940 and simple living?
00:30:56.760 Has it changed any at all
00:30:58.080 since you began this project?
00:30:59.600 That's a difficult question.
00:31:00.600 First of all,
00:31:01.140 I want to make it clear
00:31:02.500 that I would never
00:31:04.120 hold myself up
00:31:05.060 as a paragon
00:31:06.300 of frugality
00:31:07.800 and simple living.
00:31:09.000 It's true that
00:31:09.640 living in a rural community
00:31:11.320 in a small college town
00:31:12.560 in western New York,
00:31:13.940 it is actually quite easy
00:31:15.200 to live somewhat simply,
00:31:17.100 you know,
00:31:17.280 walk to work,
00:31:18.360 come home,
00:31:19.320 you know,
00:31:19.660 probably the most common
00:31:21.920 kind of social entertainment
00:31:23.180 that I go in for
00:31:24.080 is just having potluck dinners
00:31:25.800 at people's houses,
00:31:26.760 you know,
00:31:27.020 and hosting them too.
00:31:28.520 So just the where I live
00:31:30.980 and the community
00:31:31.800 I belong to
00:31:32.560 enables me to live simply
00:31:34.720 in some ways
00:31:35.300 but I wouldn't say
00:31:37.160 that I'm especially frugal.
00:31:39.720 For instance,
00:31:40.740 you know,
00:31:40.980 I like to travel.
00:31:42.080 This summer we'll be going to,
00:31:43.700 you know,
00:31:43.940 back to visit friends
00:31:44.940 and family in Britain
00:31:45.680 and that all costs money.
00:31:47.740 I think it's made me
00:31:49.100 more self-aware,
00:31:50.540 I think,
00:31:50.860 writing the book
00:31:51.440 and thinking long and hard
00:31:52.760 about all these things.
00:31:54.140 I'm a very enthusiastic
00:31:55.260 grow-my-own-vegetables gardener.
00:31:57.100 I have lots of raised beds
00:31:58.460 with vegetables in them.
00:32:00.140 I'm looking out of the window now
00:32:01.280 and everything's covered in snow.
00:32:02.580 So, you know,
00:32:05.360 I think it's made me
00:32:06.820 more self-aware
00:32:07.440 and particularly
00:32:08.020 more self-aware
00:32:09.280 of the value
00:32:10.100 of the simple pleasures,
00:32:13.140 the pleasures of friendship,
00:32:14.860 communal eating,
00:32:15.860 growing your own vegetables,
00:32:17.460 you know,
00:32:17.940 that kind of thing.
00:32:19.280 But I'm inclined to think
00:32:20.960 I was already
00:32:21.540 that way disposed anyway.
00:32:24.220 So it seems like
00:32:24.940 you're taking
00:32:25.540 sort of an Aristotelian approach,
00:32:27.480 right?
00:32:28.920 Sort of.
00:32:29.640 Tell you one thing
00:32:30.960 where it's actually
00:32:31.560 may have had
00:32:32.040 an opposite effect
00:32:33.080 because it also,
00:32:34.700 you mentioned earlier
00:32:35.740 miserliness.
00:32:37.280 One of the things
00:32:37.920 is that if you go in
00:32:39.420 for frugality,
00:32:40.820 there is a danger
00:32:41.860 that you'll start
00:32:43.380 to develop,
00:32:44.460 for instance,
00:32:44.960 un-generosity,
00:32:45.760 a lack of generosity
00:32:46.460 or miserliness
00:32:47.260 or something like that.
00:32:48.500 This was, you know,
00:32:49.360 something that people
00:32:51.280 back in ancient times
00:32:52.000 also warned against.
00:32:53.520 And one sort of
00:32:55.040 slightly subtle way
00:32:57.140 in which this can manifest itself
00:32:58.460 is you can sometimes,
00:33:00.340 let's suppose
00:33:00.900 you can afford something
00:33:02.980 and it is something
00:33:04.180 that would be
00:33:05.400 a good thing to get
00:33:06.900 but it would save you
00:33:08.320 a lot of trouble
00:33:08.760 and yet you don't do it
00:33:10.200 just because you've
00:33:11.160 bought into the idea
00:33:12.080 of frugality.
00:33:13.740 Let's say there's a meal
00:33:14.600 on a restaurant
00:33:15.100 you really want.
00:33:16.160 You can afford it.
00:33:17.100 Let's say it's $20
00:33:17.900 or something
00:33:18.580 but you say,
00:33:19.060 I'm not going to pay
00:33:19.920 $20 for that.
00:33:21.220 So you don't do it
00:33:22.780 and so you deprive yourself
00:33:24.520 of a perfectly
00:33:25.160 enjoyable experience
00:33:26.500 or, you know,
00:33:27.940 you don't take a taxi
00:33:29.260 and said he walked
00:33:30.260 for an hour in the rain
00:33:31.160 or something
00:33:31.540 and it's totally miserable
00:33:32.400 and the truth is
00:33:33.240 it would have been worth
00:33:34.100 $20 or whatever.
00:33:35.480 You know,
00:33:35.680 so I actually think
00:33:36.820 in my life
00:33:37.720 I think I've done that
00:33:38.620 quite a few times
00:33:40.040 and maybe,
00:33:41.680 just maybe,
00:33:42.780 let's ask my spouse
00:33:44.800 about whether this is true
00:33:46.360 but maybe I'm improving.
00:33:48.700 So in that sense
00:33:49.700 it's made me
00:33:50.360 perhaps a little less frugal.
00:33:52.260 I don't know
00:33:52.540 if you've ever done
00:33:54.000 anything like that.
00:33:55.320 No, yeah.
00:33:55.820 I mean, yeah.
00:33:56.200 I've, as I've,
00:33:57.340 it's just all about wisdom.
00:33:58.360 You're trying to be
00:33:58.960 making better choices
00:34:00.120 and yeah,
00:34:00.940 I've indulged myself
00:34:01.900 a little bit more
00:34:02.480 where I can afford it
00:34:03.340 and like it actually
00:34:03.880 made my life better.
00:34:05.240 Yeah, but I've,
00:34:05.920 I'm definitely in that mode
00:34:06.740 where like,
00:34:07.180 no, we're not going
00:34:07.880 to spend money on that
00:34:08.680 because that's just
00:34:09.360 a waste of money
00:34:09.940 but it would be better
00:34:10.860 if I'd.
00:34:11.380 But then sometimes,
00:34:12.800 don't you find
00:34:13.160 sometimes afterwards
00:34:14.060 you think,
00:34:14.700 you know what?
00:34:15.580 That was stupid.
00:34:16.480 I was in that place
00:34:17.220 once in my life
00:34:18.220 and for $15
00:34:19.860 I could have done that thing,
00:34:21.920 seen that site,
00:34:23.220 whatever,
00:34:23.420 and I didn't
00:34:24.940 and I wouldn't miss
00:34:26.460 that $15 now
00:34:27.480 but I'll never have
00:34:28.740 that experience.
00:34:29.320 You can't take the money
00:34:29.960 with you to the grave.
00:34:30.940 Well, Imris,
00:34:31.340 this has been
00:34:31.720 a great conversation.
00:34:32.720 Is there someplace
00:34:33.160 people can go
00:34:33.940 to learn more
00:34:34.460 about your book
00:34:35.100 and your work?
00:34:35.760 Sure,
00:34:36.140 you could just go
00:34:36.800 to my website
00:34:37.560 to learn more
00:34:38.420 about my work
00:34:39.020 because I probably
00:34:39.760 write other things
00:34:40.880 as well
00:34:41.240 and if you just
00:34:42.400 Google my name,
00:34:43.380 Imris Westacott,
00:34:44.400 the first site
00:34:44.940 you'll come to
00:34:45.380 will be my homepage
00:34:46.620 which has got
00:34:47.160 stuff about
00:34:47.940 the classes I teach
00:34:48.900 and the articles
00:34:50.200 I've written
00:34:50.680 and things like that.
00:34:51.480 For the book,
00:34:52.580 you can go straight
00:34:53.840 to Princeton University Press
00:34:55.060 or Amazon
00:34:57.220 or whatever.
00:34:58.160 Well, Imris Westacott,
00:34:58.760 thank you so much
00:34:59.220 for your time.
00:34:59.600 It's been a pleasure.
00:35:00.160 It's been a pleasure.
00:35:00.720 Thank you.
00:35:01.140 My guest today
00:35:01.500 was Imris Westacott.
00:35:02.400 He's the author
00:35:02.860 of the book
00:35:03.400 The Wisdom of Frugality.
00:35:04.780 It's available
00:35:05.120 on Amazon.com
00:35:06.120 and bookstores everywhere.
00:35:07.120 Go pick it up.
00:35:07.600 It's a great book.
00:35:08.340 Also, make sure
00:35:08.840 to check out
00:35:09.120 our show notes
00:35:09.580 at aom.is
00:35:10.680 slash frugal
00:35:11.360 where you can find
00:35:11.900 links to resources
00:35:12.680 where you can delve
00:35:13.160 deeper into this topic.
00:35:14.080 Well, that wraps up
00:35:21.320 another edition
00:35:21.940 of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:35:23.540 For more manly tips
00:35:24.180 and advice,
00:35:24.600 make sure to check out
00:35:25.260 the Art of Manliness website
00:35:26.280 at artofmanliness.com.
00:35:27.520 If you enjoyed this podcast
00:35:28.980 and have gotten
00:35:29.540 something out of it,
00:35:30.200 I'd really appreciate
00:35:30.800 if you take one minute
00:35:31.660 to give us a review
00:35:32.680 on iTunes or Stitcher.
00:35:33.800 Helps us out a lot
00:35:34.380 in spreading the word
00:35:34.980 about the show.
00:35:35.680 As always,
00:35:36.300 thank you for your
00:35:36.900 continued support
00:35:37.360 and until next time,
00:35:38.220 this is Brett McKay
00:35:38.940 telling you to stay manly.
00:35:40.680 I'll see you next time.