#304： The Lies of Manhood and How to Teach Young Men Its Truths
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Summary
Jeffrey Marks talks about his relationship with former NFL lineman and now minister and high school football coach Joe Ehrman, and how his experience as a ball boy for the Baltimore Colts in the 1970s shaped his views on masculinity.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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Well, football is often seen as an incubator of rough and wild masculinity, but one former
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NFL lineman turned church minister turned high school football coach sees football as
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a platform to teach young men how to be both tough and tender.
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My guest today on the podcast has spent a season with this sage coach and walked away
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having learned what it really means to be a man as well as built a stronger relationship
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His name is Jeffrey Marks and his Pulitzer Prize winning book is Season of Life, A Football
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And today on the show, Jeffrey talks about his relationship with retired NFL athlete and
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now minister and high school football coach named Joe Ehrman.
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Jeff begins by sharing what he learned from Joe and other NFL players about what it means
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to be a man during his stint as a ball boy for the Baltimore Colts in the 1970s.
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He then shares how Joe went from being a party animal to an inner city minister who focused
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We then discuss what Joe sees as the lies of masculinity in the popular culture and how
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they need to be replaced with what he calls strategic masculinity.
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We end our conversation talking about how coaching high school football ties into Joe's
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ministry to men, how Joe's philosophy on masculinity helped Jeffrey draw closer to his father.
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Lots of great insights on this show, so be sure to take notes.
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After the show is over, check out the show notes at aom.is slash season of life.
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So you wrote a book several years ago, back in 2007, that I just came across.
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I don't know how I stumbled across it, but I'm glad I did.
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It's called Season of Life, A Football Star, A Boy, A Journey to Manhood.
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And this book is about a lot of different things that hit close to home for a lot of men, but
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primarily follow a high school football coach named Joe Ehrman.
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And he's had a fascinating career before he became a football coach.
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So before we get to his career as a football coach, high school football coach, can you
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tell us about his career with the Colts, the Baltimore Colts?
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Well, back in the 1970s, Joe Ehrman was a big time football star.
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He was an all-American defensive lineman at Syracuse first, and then he was a first-round
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draft pick of the Baltimore Colts long before they moved away to Indianapolis.
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He ended up being the defensive captain of that team and one of the real leaders of the
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Joe played eight years with the Colts from 1973 to 1980, and then he had two more years
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So he was a big time player who really did a lot of things on the field, but also touched
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And your relationship with him, it began when you were a kid yourself.
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I had an incredible experience, unbelievably fortunate as a kid, starting at the age of
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So during my summers, I lived with, worked with, and traveled with a professional football
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And that was an amazing experience as a young boy.
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I did that all the way up through my high school years and a couple of years of college
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So Joe Ehrman was one of many guys who really impacted my young life.
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And to this day, there's really not a day goes by, even though I'm in my 50s now, where
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there isn't something that happens that somehow draws me back to those childhood experiences.
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I never could have guessed then the way it would impact my life.
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I mean, you talk about in the book, hanging around these professional football players, you
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learned things about being a man that you didn't learn from your dad, but you saw and
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What were some of those things you learned from these pro football players?
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My dad, an amazing man, a man who I always knew loved me, but I knew that through his
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He was a man whose emotions were kind of tucked away.
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I would say he kept his emotional thermometer stuck right in the middle, no highs, no lows.
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And so as a boy, I never really saw a lot of those pieces from my dad, things that I
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would later see from the Colts and experience and realize that it was okay for a man to express
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his emotions, both the excited highs and also the sad lows from time to time.
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I saw grown men cry in the Colts locker room and at different times with some of their experiences
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And, you know, as a boy, I never knew that that was okay.
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You know, you look up to those professional athletes so much.
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And so to see some of those things from them, I think really impacted me and my understanding
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You talk about Joe during his playing days and, you know, he wasn't too much of a party
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And he was kind of a huckster, a prankster on the team, but he had an event in his life.
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His brother died and it completely changed him.
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How did, how did that, the death of Joe's brother, when did that happen in his career
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and how did that affect his, his life going forward?
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Well, Billy Ehrman was Joe's younger brother and really best friend.
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And so that was a huge turning point in Joe's life.
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I would say that he was a party animal prior to that.
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Joe was a guy who, if you wanted to know where the team party was or where they were going
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to play poker on Wednesday nights or where to get a cold beer after the game or any of
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So he had a lot of fun during his early NFL days.
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That's when his younger brother, Billy, died after a long battle with aplastic anemia.
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That's when Joe really started searching for meaning in his life, trying to understand what
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he had been fed for so many years about what it supposedly means to be a man, a successful
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And he did a lot of re-evaluation, ended up going into the ministry through his lessons
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He talked a little bit about his ministry because it was pretty unique.
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Well, when Joe became a minister in Baltimore, he started in the inner city and he had a
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And that was in a pretty tough neighborhood in Baltimore where a lot of young people and
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I mean, Joe was one of these guys that was always reaching out to pull others in.
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As I mentioned briefly ago, I happened to be very fortunate to be one of those starting
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So I knew and saw and felt like and meant when Joe got involved in your life.
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And later on, once he became a minister and was able to reach so many families in the inner
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city, that really changed a lot of lives for a lot of people.
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And then another unique thing about his ministry is that he's made a focus on reaching out to
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Working in the inner city and seeing and experiencing all those ills that impact so many, whether
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it's the issue of drugs, whether the issue of fatherlessness, so many other things going
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on, problems in the city, socioeconomic issues.
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Joe came to realize this, that all of those other problems were really just a subset of the
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And that is that we as a culture don't do a very good job of teaching boys and men what
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it really means, what it really ought to mean to be a man in this culture, a man of substance
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And so he started a program called Building Men for Others, which is all about tearing
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down what he calls the societal lies of false masculinity and then replacing those and teaching
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them into young people's lives, replacing them with what he calls true masculinity or strategic
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in the sense that strategic masculinity means that it's intentional.
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You need to decide for yourself how you're going to define masculinity and then you need
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Well, what are some of these false lies that Joe thinks are out there in our culture?
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Joe has in his program, he came up with three lies that he calls false masculinity.
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The first is athletic ability and that starts at a very young age.
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We learned that if we can play a little better basketball or football or baseball on the
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playgrounds and somehow we're a little better than or a little more than the other boys.
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And, you know, we all want to be good athletes and enjoy those things.
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But quite honestly, it has nothing to do with later being a man of substance and impact.
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And then you get a little older and you reach that second lie in Joe's definition, sexual
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And I'm not talking about healthy relationships there.
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There's nothing there in the world in a healthy relationship.
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This is what I would call the notch in the belt mentality where you're really bringing
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girls and later women around you, not for anything that serves them, but for your own
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If you're going to define yourself by sexual conquest, that doesn't make you a man.
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If anything, that makes you a user of other people.
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And then you get a little older and you reach that third piece, economic success.
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Issues revolving around power and privilege and prestige, your job title, and so many other
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things that come into play the way we too often view this world as adults.
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And, you know, again, I'm not suggesting that there's something wrong with wanting and having
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That's a beautiful thing, but there's something terribly wrong if that's how you're going to measure
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So Joe takes those three pieces, the athletic ability, the sexual conquest, economic success.
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He calls it from the ball field to the bedroom, to the billfold.
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And then he replaces those with his definition of strategic masculinity.
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And what is that definition of strategic masculinity?
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Well, in Joe's view, there are only two categories.
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That's the ability to look another man or woman or child in the eye and express to them
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your love and then hear and see and feel that coming back as well.
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And, you know, you want to get to the point where if I were to walk out of here today and
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get hit by a truck on the road and I was on my deathbed tonight, I was looking back over
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If I'd be able to ask myself certain questions that are all relationship based questions such
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as what kind of husband was I, what kind of father, what kind of son, what kind of brother,
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what kind of classmate, teammate, community member, all of these issues that revolve around
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And I want to know that I'm going to measure my life looking back on it based on those things,
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not on things like how many home runs did I hit on a baseball team, how many hundred dollar
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bills did I put in my bank account, how many cars did I put in my garage?
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Those things really be meaningless at a time like that.
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And then the second piece, it's having a cause beyond yourself.
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That means it's bigger than your own individual hopes, dreams, and desires.
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Your cause can be large, it can be small, you can have a single cause or multiple causes.
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But ultimately, if you're on that same deathbed tonight, you want to know that somehow you
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lived, you learned, you loved, and you left this place a little better than it was before
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He also has this men's ministry he's doing, reaching out to young men.
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How did he end up coaching high school football on top of being a minister?
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Well, it's funny to think back on it now, but in 2001, when I reconnected with Joe after
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18 years, 18 years had passed between the last time I had seen him as a professional football
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player and then reconnecting with him in Baltimore.
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And I didn't know that he was doing this either.
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You know, I had seen and heard little things about what he was doing in the inner city.
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I knew that he was responsible for building the first Ronald McDonald house in Baltimore,
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serving sick children and their families, a tribute to his brother, Billy.
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I knew a lot of those things, but I had no idea he was coaching high school football on
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And Joe explained to me that the only reason he was doing that, it wasn't really that he
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It was simply because he saw that as the perfect context in which to reach and teach teenage
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boys about these concepts that he had developed related to masculinity.
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So, you know, I would make the argument that sports in America today is the most powerful
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So if you want to reach and teach teenage boys important concepts such as these, what better
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way to do it than within the context of high school sports?
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You know, what's his technique of imbuing these things to these young men where they
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actually want to listen and apply these things that he's telling them?
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Well, Joe was coaching along with his best friend, Biff Pogey, and Biff was the head coach
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and Joe, the defensive coordinator of a team called the Gilman Greyhounds in Baltimore.
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And one of the things that was so beautiful just to start with was that all the boys would
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see and witness and understand and then ultimately want to emulate the type of relationship that
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So they would see it right there before they even started learning about it from the lessons.
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And Joe and Biff had a whole program where they had a playbook that was unlike any other
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You know, think about high school football, the most violent sport in America, football.
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Think about high school where all you want to do is a teenage boy is impress other boys
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But here were the main concepts in their playbook for that high school football team.
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Kindness, empathy, inclusion, justice, living a life of service to others, integrity, bringing
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Overall, what they were doing was trying to teach those boys that really what we want to
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do as boys and men and ultimately as human beings, any human being, is keep the head and
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You know, physically in our body, the head and the heart on average are about 17 inches
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But as boys and young men, we're taught so early to separate those two, to keep them as
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far apart as we possibly can and then separate that cord.
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And we're taught that we're supposed to lead with the head and not with the heart.
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In the biggest picture, the broadest context, what Joe and Biff are teaching those boys to
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The first day I showed up there, summer of 2001, for their first day of summer football
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practice, here's the very first thing I saw on that football field.
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And I've lived my whole life in one way or another around the world of sports.
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In this case, it was Biff, the head coach, standing at one end of the field and about 80
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or 90 boys, junior varsity and varsity football players, sitting in the grass at that end zone
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Biff was standing before them, about seven or eight assistant coaches standing behind
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And the first thing Biff does is yell out to those boys, what is our job?
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He yells to the boys and they yell back to love each other.
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Now, I thought that was about the weirdest thing I'd ever seen.
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I didn't really understand what that was all about.
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But as I spent more time there, I came to realize that signature exchange really represented
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everything Joe and Biff were doing to those boys because they weren't just building a
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It reminded me of my high school football days.
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When I first started playing high school football, the coach I had, you could tell that his primary
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And then I remember we got another coach and you could tell his goal was, you know, win
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And I preferred the first one because I felt like I got a lot more out of it.
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And that's what I remember the most is, I mean, I'm still like you, like I think back upon
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And like, I still go back there to find, you know, lessons on how to be a man from what
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that head coach was trying to teach me as a 15 year old kid.
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You talk about the different kinds of coaches and how all these years later that has stayed
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But again, let's broaden this thing out and understand the kind of coaches that these
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And now sharing this with people all over the country that hopefully they've impacted
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And in our culture today, we have so many different types of coaches, not just athletics coaches.
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We have business coaches, we have life coaches, all kinds of coaches, even the sports coaches.
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We see the, the screamers, we see the supportive type, those who affirm, but let's go back.
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That word coach, the first use in the English language, a horse drawn carriage, but it wasn't
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And the purpose was to convey or transport a person of importance from where he or she
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is to where he or she wants to be, needs to be, or ought to be going.
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Now the 1500s, I would make the argument all these years later that what we ought to be
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expecting of, and in fact, demanding of our youth sports coaches is that they take our
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people of importance, our young people from where they are to where they want to be, need
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to be, or ought to be going, keeping in mind that should have nothing to do with points
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on the scoreboard, league titles, state championships, or any of that stuff.
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That's all about creating lives of substance and impact.
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And that's exactly the way these coaches want to approach it.
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And this isn't to say, like, sure, he had this primary focus of, you know, developing
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character in these young men, but like, this was a good football team too.
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You know, Joe and I have spent years on the road since this book first came out in late
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2003 and 2004, when we started doing a lot of work all over the country.
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And one of the most amazing things was how certain questions were immediately asked.
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And one of the first was, this all sounds great, but can you still win?
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A lot of people couldn't see how you could possibly do all this touchy feely life stuff
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within the context of high school football and still win games.
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Well, they kind of start paying more attention when they realize that eight of nine years,
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Joe and this team was the champion in the toughest conference in the city of Baltimore.
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And four of those years, four of those nine, the Gilman Greyhounds were undefeated and ranked
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Those Gilman Greyhounds, they're going to light you up.
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Trust me, that whistle blows, they'll light you up.
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But when it blows again, because the play is over, they'll also reach out a hand and
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So that's what they're instilling in those boys.
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And let me tell you, those boys come together in ways I have learned and had some of the
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And I had a coach who was an affirmer, two different coaches.
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And I can assure you that all these years later, the affirmer has had a lot bigger impact.
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And he brought us together in ways that the screamer never could have.
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In fact, to this day, as a 54-year-old man, one of my dear friends in this world is my
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And so it's all about relationships in the program that they're teaching.
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And those relationships don't only bring a team together where that team becomes a true
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community and that community becomes true champions.
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Yeah, I love there's this moment in the book you describe where a parent is asking Biff
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at a scrimmage, like, how's the team going to do this year, coach?
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And that's because he wants to wait and see what type of dads are going to be, what kind
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But he told those boys one day, I expect greatness out of you.
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And the way we measure greatness, the only way we measure greatness is the impact you
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So you take those concepts and you put that over the span of 10, 15, 20 years.
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And it's my belief that these boys, now men, will be impacting that community in ways that
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no one on the outside looking in ever could have imagined, but in ways that Joe and Biff
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Well, have you done any follow-up to some of the players at Gilman and how they're doing
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They're probably about five or six of those boys, and I still call them boys because when
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I did my research and my writing of this book, of course, they were high school boys.
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But that was 2001, and now we're looking at them 16 years later.
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So, you know, they're in their mid-30s, a good number of them.
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It's really remarkable to see what some of them have done with their lives.
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And that's been a lot of fun for me, not only as a writer of that book, but as someone
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who became friends with them and their families.
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And to see some of them now coaching on their own, one of them is an assistant coach at the
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There are several others who have gone on to coaching, not necessarily at big-name schools,
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And just seeing the way generationally they will now touch other lives was really pretty
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And at the end, you talk about how this season with the Gilman High School football team
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Well, it happened in a way that was certainly not anticipated.
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At first, I thought I was just going to see Joe for a day and see what he was doing up
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there in Baltimore, because I was kind of interested after all those years.
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And because of our connection so much earlier, I wanted to see what he was doing.
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The first trick, I guess, was that I kept going back for more once I realized what was
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And I ended up spending a full season with them.
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The other trick, I would say, was that I thought even once I was spending time there, I was just
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But I actually became unknowingly a participant, because I think it would be impossible to
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go through a whole season with a group like that, both the boys playing and the men coaching,
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without going through some self-evaluation of your own.
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I kept coming back to my relationship with my dad.
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The more I thought about Joe and Biff, the way they were teaching strategic masculinity,
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of course, that led to me thinking a lot about all of my relationships, about my cause in
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We talked about him a few minutes ago and how I always knew my dad loved me, but he wasn't
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the kind of guy who would express that when I was a boy, that's for sure.
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The first time he told me he loved me, I was 24 years old.
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I always knew through his actions, but there were certain things that my dad could never
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say to me, being the stoic, being the guy who didn't show his emotions.
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So there were all kinds of things we could talk about as a father and a son, but there
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were also all kinds of things that were beyond the realm of all possibility to talk about.
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So, you know, at that time, my early forties, I wanted and needed more.
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I didn't want my dad to leave this world, whenever that might be, and me look back and
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wonder what could have been in our relationship.
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So at the end of that season, 2001 season, I'll never forget it.
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I lived in DC at that point, although I was spending so much time in Baltimore.
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My dad was still living in New York where we grew up and he knew I was coming up for Thanksgiving
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weekend, but he didn't know what was coming with me.
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And what was coming with me was a great desire to have some real intense conversation with
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So we spent hours and hours that weekend, just the two of us sitting on the couch in
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It was absolutely amazing to see the way he responded.
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My dad's 83 years old now, and I'm so fortunate to still have him.
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He's incredibly healthy and enjoys his life so much, but I just can't even imagine what these
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years would have been like if we had never started that conversation in 2001.
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So that's a conversation that has been going and growing ever since.
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And it's been incredibly rich and meaningful to have that as a part of our lives and our
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I loved how you referenced this book, the questions to ask your father.
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Because I think a lot of men, they don't really know their dads.
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They don't really know anything about what they were like when they were kids.
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And it'd be nice to know that stuff because you're going through that stuff yourself.
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Back then, he was a pastor of a large church, about 4,000 members in Baltimore.
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We were sitting in his office one day having one of these conversations related to his
00:24:19.920
program as I was learning more for the writing of this book.
00:24:22.500
And he took a phone call, and I started looking at the books on his bookshelf this day.
00:24:28.280
And I was so fortunate just to stumble across his book.
00:24:31.060
And when he was done on the phone, I asked him about it.
00:24:32.880
He told me about it and how he had used it with his boys.
00:24:40.280
And I ended up using that as a blueprint for my own conversations with my dad.
00:24:44.140
And it was really incredible to see not only the way that helped us along, but once
00:24:49.400
I wrote about that in the book, Season of Life, there were so many other families around
00:24:55.700
And when I would go out for speaking engagements, one of the first things I would hear from people
00:24:59.280
would be how they, too, ended up using those questions and having similar conversations
00:25:04.340
as a father and son that took people in so many wonderful directions.
00:25:08.120
So it was an incredible gift that Joe gave to me.
00:25:11.460
And then I was able to share that with other people.
00:25:13.640
So that's been a pretty special part of this as well.
00:25:16.020
Well, Jeffy, there's been a great conversation.
00:25:17.480
Where can people learn more about your work and your book?
00:25:20.660
Well, both the book, Season of Life, and then I do a lot of work still with speaking engagements
00:25:25.820
And all of that information can be found at a website, jeffreymarks.org.
00:25:29.440
That's just one solid word, jeffreymarks, M-A-R-X, like x-ray.org.
00:25:35.180
And then to follow the journey, and I really came to see this as a journey, not only as a
00:25:39.600
book anymore, but all these years and all these experiences.
00:25:42.060
I try to share that with folks through the Twitter account, which is at jeffreymarks25,
00:25:50.100
Well, Jeffrey Marks, thank you so much for your time.
00:25:55.840
He's the author of the Pulitzer Prize-winning book, Season of Life.
00:25:58.740
It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.
00:26:01.380
You can find out more information about Jeffrey's work at jeffreymarks.org.
00:26:05.480
Also, check out our show notes at aom.is slash seasonoflife, where you can find links to
00:26:10.260
resources where you can delve deeper into this topic.
00:26:19.260
Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:26:22.420
For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at
00:26:26.520
If you enjoy this show, have gotten something out of it, I'd appreciate it if you take one
00:26:29.520
minute to give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher.
00:26:34.040
Until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.