The Art of Manliness - #304： The Lies of Manhood and How to Teach Young Men Its Truths

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:14.260 Well, football is often seen as an incubator of rough and wild masculinity, but one former

00:00:19.300 NFL lineman turned church minister turned high school football coach sees football as

00:00:24.080 a platform to teach young men how to be both tough and tender.

00:00:27.320 My guest today on the podcast has spent a season with this sage coach and walked away

00:00:30.960 having learned what it really means to be a man as well as built a stronger relationship

00:00:34.340 with his own father.

00:00:35.580 His name is Jeffrey Marks and his Pulitzer Prize winning book is Season of Life, A Football

00:00:39.360 Star, A Boy, A Journey to Manhood.

00:00:41.540 And today on the show, Jeffrey talks about his relationship with retired NFL athlete and

00:00:45.240 now minister and high school football coach named Joe Ehrman.

00:00:48.100 Jeff begins by sharing what he learned from Joe and other NFL players about what it means

00:00:51.500 to be a man during his stint as a ball boy for the Baltimore Colts in the 1970s.

00:00:55.660 He then shares how Joe went from being a party animal to an inner city minister who focused

00:00:59.460 on helping young men.

00:01:00.480 We then discuss what Joe sees as the lies of masculinity in the popular culture and how

00:01:04.960 they need to be replaced with what he calls strategic masculinity.

00:01:08.180 We end our conversation talking about how coaching high school football ties into Joe's

00:01:11.800 ministry to men, how Joe's philosophy on masculinity helped Jeffrey draw closer to his father.

00:01:16.140 Lots of great insights on this show, so be sure to take notes.

00:01:18.380 After the show is over, check out the show notes at aom.is slash season of life.

00:01:22.300 Jeffrey Marks, welcome to the show.

00:01:31.520 Well, thanks for having me.

00:01:32.720 So you wrote a book several years ago, back in 2007, that I just came across.

00:01:37.400 I don't know how I stumbled across it, but I'm glad I did.

00:01:39.940 It's called Season of Life, A Football Star, A Boy, A Journey to Manhood.

00:01:44.820 And this book is about a lot of different things that hit close to home for a lot of men, but

00:01:50.480 primarily follow a high school football coach named Joe Ehrman.

00:01:54.320 And he's had a fascinating career before he became a football coach.

00:01:57.040 So before we get to his career as a football coach, high school football coach, can you

00:02:01.000 tell us about his career with the Colts, the Baltimore Colts?

00:02:04.500 Sure.

00:02:04.820 Well, back in the 1970s, Joe Ehrman was a big time football star.

00:02:08.400 He was an all-American defensive lineman at Syracuse first, and then he was a first-round

00:02:13.240 draft pick of the Baltimore Colts long before they moved away to Indianapolis.

00:02:17.780 And he did really well with the Colts.

00:02:19.140 He ended up being the defensive captain of that team and one of the real leaders of the

00:02:23.380 team, both on and off the field.

00:02:25.480 Joe played eight years with the Colts from 1973 to 1980, and then he had two more years

00:02:30.420 in the NFL with the Detroit Lions, 81 and 82.

00:02:32.880 So he was a big time player who really did a lot of things on the field, but also touched

00:02:37.920 a lot of lives off the field.

00:02:39.740 And your relationship with him, it began when you were a kid yourself.

00:02:43.040 Can you tell us a little bit about that?

00:02:44.620 Right.

00:02:44.960 I had an incredible experience, unbelievably fortunate as a kid, starting at the age of

00:02:48.980 11.

00:02:50.040 I was a ball boy for the Baltimore Colts.

00:02:52.320 So during my summers, I lived with, worked with, and traveled with a professional football

00:02:57.060 team.

00:02:57.400 And that was an amazing experience as a young boy.

00:02:59.520 I did that all the way up through my high school years and a couple of years of college

00:03:03.100 during the summers as well.

00:03:04.500 So Joe Ehrman was one of many guys who really impacted my young life.

00:03:09.300 And to this day, there's really not a day goes by, even though I'm in my 50s now, where

00:03:14.560 there isn't something that happens that somehow draws me back to those childhood experiences.

00:03:19.020 I never could have guessed then the way it would impact my life.

00:03:22.320 Yeah.

00:03:22.420 I mean, you talk about in the book, hanging around these professional football players, you

00:03:27.280 learned things about being a man that you didn't learn from your dad, but you saw and

00:03:31.760 experienced firsthand with these guys.

00:03:33.220 What were some of those things you learned from these pro football players?

00:03:36.920 Right.

00:03:37.120 Well, absolutely.

00:03:37.860 My dad, an amazing man, a man who I always knew loved me, but I knew that through his

00:03:42.900 actions, not through his words.

00:03:44.940 He wasn't very expressive.

00:03:46.200 He was a stoic.

00:03:47.120 He was a man whose emotions were kind of tucked away.

00:03:50.240 I would say he kept his emotional thermometer stuck right in the middle, no highs, no lows.

00:03:55.040 And so as a boy, I never really saw a lot of those pieces from my dad, things that I

00:04:01.040 would later see from the Colts and experience and realize that it was okay for a man to express

00:04:06.380 his emotions, both the excited highs and also the sad lows from time to time.

00:04:10.980 I saw grown men cry in the Colts locker room and at different times with some of their experiences

00:04:15.860 in the NFL.

00:04:16.720 And, you know, as a boy, I never knew that that was okay.

00:04:19.320 You know, you look up to those professional athletes so much.

00:04:21.860 And so to see some of those things from them, I think really impacted me and my understanding

00:04:26.840 what it meant to be a man.

00:04:28.160 You talk about Joe during his playing days and, you know, he wasn't too much of a party

00:04:33.580 animal, but he liked to have a good time.

00:04:35.180 And he was kind of a huckster, a prankster on the team, but he had an event in his life.

00:04:39.420 His brother died and it completely changed him.

00:04:42.320 How did, how did that, the death of Joe's brother, when did that happen in his career

00:04:46.100 and how did that affect his, his life going forward?

00:04:48.960 Right.

00:04:49.560 Well, Billy Ehrman was Joe's younger brother and really best friend.

00:04:53.520 And so that was a huge turning point in Joe's life.

00:04:56.800 I would say that he was a party animal prior to that.

00:04:59.500 Joe was a guy who, if you wanted to know where the team party was or where they were going

00:05:03.820 to play poker on Wednesday nights or where to get a cold beer after the game or any of

00:05:07.780 that stuff, Joe was really the go-to guy.

00:05:09.900 So he had a lot of fun during his early NFL days.

00:05:12.900 The big turning point for him was in 1978.

00:05:15.320 That's when his younger brother, Billy, died after a long battle with aplastic anemia.

00:05:21.180 It changed everything for Joe.

00:05:22.700 That's when Joe really started searching for meaning in his life, trying to understand what

00:05:27.140 he had been fed for so many years about what it supposedly means to be a man, a successful

00:05:31.260 man in this world.

00:05:32.380 And he did a lot of re-evaluation, ended up going into the ministry through his lessons

00:05:37.080 learned and also lessons taught.

00:05:39.500 It really changed everything for him.

00:05:41.720 Yeah.

00:05:41.820 He talked a little bit about his ministry because it was pretty unique.

00:05:44.280 Well, when Joe became a minister in Baltimore, he started in the inner city and he had a

00:05:49.640 program called The Door.

00:05:51.920 And that was in a pretty tough neighborhood in Baltimore where a lot of young people and

00:05:55.920 a lot of families needed all kinds of help.

00:05:58.060 So that was typical Joe.

00:06:00.220 I mean, Joe was one of these guys that was always reaching out to pull others in.

00:06:04.100 As I mentioned briefly ago, I happened to be very fortunate to be one of those starting

00:06:09.220 as an 11-year-old boy.

00:06:10.240 So I knew and saw and felt like and meant when Joe got involved in your life.

00:06:14.220 And later on, once he became a minister and was able to reach so many families in the inner

00:06:18.400 city, that really changed a lot of lives for a lot of people.

00:06:21.460 And then another unique thing about his ministry is that he's made a focus on reaching out to

00:06:24.880 young men.

00:06:25.700 Why have that focus?

00:06:26.920 Yeah, that became much later.

00:06:28.740 That came on much later.

00:06:30.860 Joe came to this conclusion.

00:06:32.100 Working in the inner city and seeing and experiencing all those ills that impact so many, whether

00:06:38.920 it's the issue of drugs, whether the issue of fatherlessness, so many other things going

00:06:43.740 on, problems in the city, socioeconomic issues.

00:06:47.600 Joe came to realize this, that all of those other problems were really just a subset of the

00:06:53.460 biggest problem of all.

00:06:54.660 And that is that we as a culture don't do a very good job of teaching boys and men what

00:06:59.980 it really means, what it really ought to mean to be a man in this culture, a man of substance

00:07:05.560 and impact.

00:07:06.160 And so he started a program called Building Men for Others, which is all about tearing

00:07:11.260 down what he calls the societal lies of false masculinity and then replacing those and teaching

00:07:17.360 them into young people's lives, replacing them with what he calls true masculinity or strategic

00:07:23.600 in the sense that strategic masculinity means that it's intentional.

00:07:27.220 You need to think it through.

00:07:28.540 You need to decide for yourself how you're going to define masculinity and then you need

00:07:33.480 to live into that definition.

00:07:35.640 Well, what are some of these false lies that Joe thinks are out there in our culture?

00:07:39.700 Joe has in his program, he came up with three lies that he calls false masculinity.

00:07:45.620 The first is athletic ability and that starts at a very young age.

00:07:49.740 We learned that if we can play a little better basketball or football or baseball on the

00:07:54.480 playgrounds and somehow we're a little better than or a little more than the other boys.

00:07:58.140 And, you know, that's fun and that's all good.

00:08:00.740 And, you know, we all want to be good athletes and enjoy those things.

00:08:03.800 But quite honestly, it has nothing to do with later being a man of substance and impact.

00:08:08.340 And then you get a little older and you reach that second lie in Joe's definition, sexual

00:08:13.800 conquest.

00:08:14.360 And I'm not talking about healthy relationships there.

00:08:17.320 There's nothing there in the world in a healthy relationship.

00:08:20.000 This is what I would call the notch in the belt mentality where you're really bringing

00:08:23.900 girls and later women around you, not for anything that serves them, but for your own

00:08:28.120 individual purposes and gratification.

00:08:30.300 And that too becomes an absolute lie.

00:08:32.820 If you're going to define yourself by sexual conquest, that doesn't make you a man.

00:08:36.880 If anything, that makes you a user of other people.

00:08:39.700 And then you get a little older and you reach that third piece, economic success.

00:08:44.520 That's what kind of car do you drive?

00:08:46.280 What house do you live in?

00:08:47.420 What's your zip code?

00:08:48.900 Issues revolving around power and privilege and prestige, your job title, and so many other

00:08:54.660 things that come into play the way we too often view this world as adults.

00:08:59.360 And, you know, again, I'm not suggesting that there's something wrong with wanting and having

00:09:03.360 good things in your life.

00:09:04.420 That's a beautiful thing, but there's something terribly wrong if that's how you're going to measure

00:09:08.320 yourself as a man.

00:09:09.320 So Joe takes those three pieces, the athletic ability, the sexual conquest, economic success.

00:09:15.540 He calls it from the ball field to the bedroom, to the billfold.

00:09:19.520 And he debunks all of those things.

00:09:21.220 And then he replaces those with his definition of strategic masculinity.

00:09:25.640 And what is that definition of strategic masculinity?

00:09:28.260 Well, in Joe's view, there are only two categories.

00:09:30.580 The first is relationships.

00:09:31.920 That's the ability to love and to be loved.

00:09:34.580 That's the ability to look another man or woman or child in the eye and express to them

00:09:38.860 your love and then hear and see and feel that coming back as well.

00:09:42.940 And, you know, you want to get to the point where if I were to walk out of here today and

00:09:47.120 get hit by a truck on the road and I was on my deathbed tonight, I was looking back over

00:09:52.060 my life.

00:09:52.580 If I'd be able to ask myself certain questions that are all relationship based questions such

00:09:58.080 as what kind of husband was I, what kind of father, what kind of son, what kind of brother,

00:10:04.180 what kind of classmate, teammate, community member, all of these issues that revolve around

00:10:09.800 relationships.

00:10:10.420 And I want to know that I'm going to measure my life looking back on it based on those things,

00:10:15.580 not on things like how many home runs did I hit on a baseball team, how many hundred dollar

00:10:20.480 bills did I put in my bank account, how many cars did I put in my garage?

00:10:24.200 Those things really be meaningless at a time like that.

00:10:26.520 So that's all about relationships.

00:10:28.060 And then the second piece, it's having a cause beyond yourself.

00:10:31.900 Joe calls it a transcendent cause.

00:10:33.780 That means it's bigger than your own individual hopes, dreams, and desires.

00:10:37.880 It's all about serving other people.

00:10:40.240 Your cause can be large, it can be small, you can have a single cause or multiple causes.

00:10:45.200 But ultimately, if you're on that same deathbed tonight, you want to know that somehow you

00:10:50.360 lived, you learned, you loved, and you left this place a little better than it was before

00:10:55.480 you got here.

00:10:56.180 That's awesome.

00:10:56.780 So he has his ministry at the door.

00:10:58.860 He also has this men's ministry he's doing, reaching out to young men.

00:11:01.800 How does football connect with this?

00:11:04.360 How did he end up coaching high school football on top of being a minister?

00:11:08.540 Well, it's funny to think back on it now, but in 2001, when I reconnected with Joe after

00:11:14.120 18 years, 18 years had passed between the last time I had seen him as a professional football

00:11:19.340 player and then reconnecting with him in Baltimore.

00:11:21.980 And I didn't know that he was doing this either.

00:11:24.800 You know, I had seen and heard little things about what he was doing in the inner city.

00:11:28.520 I knew that he was responsible for building the first Ronald McDonald house in Baltimore,

00:11:33.380 serving sick children and their families, a tribute to his brother, Billy.

00:11:38.400 I knew a lot of those things, but I had no idea he was coaching high school football on

00:11:42.800 the side.

00:11:43.420 And Joe explained to me that the only reason he was doing that, it wasn't really that he

00:11:47.540 cared a whole lot about football anymore.

00:11:49.340 It was simply because he saw that as the perfect context in which to reach and teach teenage

00:11:56.000 boys about these concepts that he had developed related to masculinity.

00:11:59.640 So, you know, I would make the argument that sports in America today is the most powerful

00:12:04.740 platform we have.

00:12:06.060 So if you want to reach and teach teenage boys important concepts such as these, what better

00:12:12.380 way to do it than within the context of high school sports?

00:12:15.620 And so how does Joe go about doing that?

00:12:17.060 You know, what's his technique of imbuing these things to these young men where they

00:12:21.260 actually want to listen and apply these things that he's telling them?

00:12:25.400 Well, Joe was coaching along with his best friend, Biff Pogey, and Biff was the head coach

00:12:30.260 and Joe, the defensive coordinator of a team called the Gilman Greyhounds in Baltimore.

00:12:34.940 And one of the things that was so beautiful just to start with was that all the boys would

00:12:38.740 see and witness and understand and then ultimately want to emulate the type of relationship that

00:12:45.640 Joe and Biff had.

00:12:46.860 So they would see it right there before they even started learning about it from the lessons.

00:12:50.840 And Joe and Biff had a whole program where they had a playbook that was unlike any other

00:12:55.500 in high school football.

00:12:56.520 You know, think about high school football, the most violent sport in America, football.

00:13:00.840 Think about high school where all you want to do is a teenage boy is impress other boys

00:13:04.720 and the girls, of course.

00:13:06.380 But here were the main concepts in their playbook for that high school football team.

00:13:10.840 Kindness, empathy, inclusion, justice, living a life of service to others, integrity, bringing

00:13:19.340 all your talents both on and off the field.

00:13:22.600 Overall, what they were doing was trying to teach those boys that really what we want to

00:13:26.400 do as boys and men and ultimately as human beings, any human being, is keep the head and

00:13:31.860 the heart connected.

00:13:33.420 You know, physically in our body, the head and the heart on average are about 17 inches

00:13:37.460 of heart.

00:13:38.220 But as boys and young men, we're taught so early to separate those two, to keep them as

00:13:43.440 far apart as we possibly can and then separate that cord.

00:13:46.600 And we're taught that we're supposed to lead with the head and not with the heart.

00:13:50.740 In the biggest picture, the broadest context, what Joe and Biff are teaching those boys to

00:13:55.980 do is keep the head and the heart connected.

00:13:58.060 I'll give you an example.

00:14:00.160 The first day I showed up there, summer of 2001, for their first day of summer football

00:14:05.480 practice, here's the very first thing I saw on that football field.

00:14:09.140 It was the strangest thing I've ever seen.

00:14:11.300 And I've lived my whole life in one way or another around the world of sports.

00:14:15.740 I saw a high school football coach.

00:14:17.960 In this case, it was Biff, the head coach, standing at one end of the field and about 80

00:14:24.100 or 90 boys, junior varsity and varsity football players, sitting in the grass at that end zone

00:14:28.760 at the end of the field.

00:14:30.420 Biff was standing before them, about seven or eight assistant coaches standing behind

00:14:34.080 Biff.

00:14:34.780 And the first thing Biff does is yell out to those boys, what is our job?

00:14:39.340 And they yell back in unison to love us.

00:14:42.860 What is your job?

00:14:44.080 He yells to the boys and they yell back to love each other.

00:14:48.080 Now, I thought that was about the weirdest thing I'd ever seen.

00:14:50.700 I didn't really understand what that was all about.

00:14:52.620 But as I spent more time there, I came to realize that signature exchange really represented

00:14:58.360 everything Joe and Biff were doing to those boys because they weren't just building a

00:15:02.140 team.

00:15:02.780 They were building a community.

00:15:05.120 No, I love that.

00:15:05.700 It reminded me of my high school football days.

00:15:08.600 When I first started playing high school football, the coach I had, you could tell that his primary

00:15:13.500 focus was developing young men into men.

00:15:17.500 And he taught these life skills.

00:15:18.760 And then I remember we got another coach and you could tell his goal was, you know, win

00:15:22.840 football games.

00:15:23.820 I mean, you could tell the difference.

00:15:25.780 And I preferred the first one because I felt like I got a lot more out of it.

00:15:29.760 And that's what I remember the most is, I mean, I'm still like you, like I think back upon

00:15:34.700 those days with fondness.

00:15:36.720 And like, I still go back there to find, you know, lessons on how to be a man from what

00:15:42.220 that head coach was trying to teach me as a 15 year old kid.

00:15:45.120 Right.

00:15:45.860 And you touch on something so important there.

00:15:48.200 You talk about the different kinds of coaches and how all these years later that has stayed

00:15:52.520 with you.

00:15:53.020 But again, let's broaden this thing out and understand the kind of coaches that these

00:15:57.020 two men really want to be.

00:15:59.300 And now sharing this with people all over the country that hopefully they've impacted

00:16:03.080 and seen them impact so many other programs.

00:16:06.080 Let's take that word coach for just a minute.

00:16:08.240 And in our culture today, we have so many different types of coaches, not just athletics coaches.

00:16:13.180 We have business coaches, we have life coaches, all kinds of coaches, even the sports coaches.

00:16:17.660 We see all different types.

00:16:18.800 We see the, the screamers, we see the supportive type, those who affirm, but let's go back.

00:16:24.980 That word coach, the first use in the English language, a horse drawn carriage, but it wasn't

00:16:31.420 just any type of carriage.

00:16:32.760 It had a specific purpose.

00:16:34.020 And the purpose was to convey or transport a person of importance from where he or she

00:16:39.800 is to where he or she wants to be, needs to be, or ought to be going.

00:16:45.060 Now the 1500s, I would make the argument all these years later that what we ought to be

00:16:50.240 expecting of, and in fact, demanding of our youth sports coaches is that they take our

00:16:56.280 people of importance, our young people from where they are to where they want to be, need

00:17:01.620 to be, or ought to be going, keeping in mind that should have nothing to do with points

00:17:06.040 on the scoreboard, league titles, state championships, or any of that stuff.

00:17:10.980 That's all about creating lives of substance and impact.

00:17:13.900 And that's exactly the way these coaches want to approach it.

00:17:16.760 And this isn't to say, like, sure, he had this primary focus of, you know, developing

00:17:20.700 character in these young men, but like, this was a good football team too.

00:17:24.260 They did well.

00:17:25.300 Oh, they did really well.

00:17:26.480 And that's what's so interesting.

00:17:27.500 You know, Joe and I have spent years on the road since this book first came out in late

00:17:31.380 2003 and 2004, when we started doing a lot of work all over the country.

00:17:36.060 And one of the most amazing things was how certain questions were immediately asked.

00:17:41.900 And one of the first was, this all sounds great, but can you still win?

00:17:46.740 A lot of people couldn't see how you could possibly do all this touchy feely life stuff

00:17:51.780 within the context of high school football and still win games.

00:17:55.700 Well, they kind of start paying more attention when they realize that eight of nine years,

00:18:00.740 Joe and this team was the champion in the toughest conference in the city of Baltimore.

00:18:05.700 And four of those years, four of those nine, the Gilman Greyhounds were undefeated and ranked

00:18:12.220 number one in the entire state of Maryland.

00:18:14.500 So here's the deal.

00:18:15.780 Those Gilman Greyhounds, they're going to light you up.

00:18:19.340 Trust me, that whistle blows, they'll light you up.

00:18:21.740 But when it blows again, because the play is over, they'll also reach out a hand and

00:18:25.760 help pick you up.

00:18:26.960 So that's what they're instilling in those boys.

00:18:28.820 And let me tell you, those boys come together in ways I have learned and had some of the

00:18:33.320 same experiences you mentioned.

00:18:34.620 I didn't play high school football.

00:18:35.840 I played high school basketball.

00:18:37.500 And I had a coach who was a screamer. 0.99

00:18:39.500 And I had a coach who was an affirmer, two different coaches.

00:18:42.060 And I can assure you that all these years later, the affirmer has had a lot bigger impact.

00:18:48.360 And he brought us together in ways that the screamer never could have.

00:18:52.340 In fact, to this day, as a 54-year-old man, one of my dear friends in this world is my

00:18:57.360 high school coach who was the affirmer.

00:18:59.520 And so it's all about relationships in the program that they're teaching.

00:19:03.500 And those relationships don't only bring a team together where that team becomes a true

00:19:08.700 community and that community becomes true champions.

00:19:11.260 It also impacts lives for many years to come.

00:19:14.540 Yeah, I love there's this moment in the book you describe where a parent is asking Biff

00:19:18.980 at a scrimmage, like, how's the team going to do this year, coach?

00:19:22.160 And Biff says, oh, I won't know for 20 years.

00:19:24.840 Right.

00:19:25.080 And that's because he wants to wait and see what type of dads are going to be, what kind

00:19:28.860 of citizens in their community.

00:19:30.620 That's how he's going to measure it.

00:19:32.020 You know, he had a great line another day.

00:19:34.580 Same type of idea.

00:19:35.660 But he told those boys one day, I expect greatness out of you.

00:19:40.000 And the way we measure greatness, the only way we measure greatness is the impact you

00:19:45.640 make on the lives of others.

00:19:47.060 So you take those concepts and you put that over the span of 10, 15, 20 years.

00:19:52.780 And it's my belief that these boys, now men, will be impacting that community in ways that

00:19:59.420 no one on the outside looking in ever could have imagined, but in ways that Joe and Biff

00:20:04.300 totally expect out of that.

00:20:05.820 Well, have you done any follow-up to some of the players at Gilman and how they're doing

00:20:09.040 now?

00:20:09.540 I have.

00:20:10.140 You know, it's really been fun for me.

00:20:11.640 They're probably about five or six of those boys, and I still call them boys because when

00:20:15.740 I did my research and my writing of this book, of course, they were high school boys.

00:20:19.200 But that was 2001, and now we're looking at them 16 years later.

00:20:23.280 So, you know, they're in their mid-30s, a good number of them.

00:20:26.040 It's really remarkable to see what some of them have done with their lives.

00:20:29.580 And that's been a lot of fun for me, not only as a writer of that book, but as someone

00:20:33.920 who became friends with them and their families.

00:20:35.800 And to see some of them now coaching on their own, one of them is an assistant coach at the

00:20:41.280 Naval Academy.

00:20:42.220 There are several others who have gone on to coaching, not necessarily at big-name schools,

00:20:45.840 but in smaller communities.

00:20:47.060 And just seeing the way generationally they will now touch other lives was really pretty

00:20:51.660 neat to see.

00:20:52.520 It's fantastic.

00:20:53.080 Throughout the book, you talk about your dad.

00:20:54.880 And at the end, you talk about how this season with the Gilman High School football team

00:20:59.080 helped reconnect you with your father.

00:21:01.340 How did that happen?

00:21:02.440 Well, it happened in a way that was certainly not anticipated.

00:21:06.320 By me.

00:21:07.120 In a way, I was kind of tricked.

00:21:09.200 At first, I thought I was just going to see Joe for a day and see what he was doing up

00:21:13.180 there in Baltimore, because I was kind of interested after all those years.

00:21:16.160 And because of our connection so much earlier, I wanted to see what he was doing.

00:21:19.620 The first trick, I guess, was that I kept going back for more once I realized what was

00:21:23.020 going on and how meaningful it was.

00:21:24.900 And I ended up spending a full season with them.

00:21:27.280 The other trick, I would say, was that I thought even once I was spending time there, I was just

00:21:32.380 going to be an observer.

00:21:33.220 But I actually became unknowingly a participant, because I think it would be impossible to

00:21:38.580 go through a whole season with a group like that, both the boys playing and the men coaching,

00:21:43.740 without going through some self-evaluation of your own.

00:21:46.380 And I did that.

00:21:47.500 I kept coming back to my relationship with my dad.

00:21:49.900 The more I thought about Joe and Biff, the way they were teaching strategic masculinity,

00:21:54.320 of course, that led to me thinking a lot about all of my relationships, about my cause in

00:21:59.180 this world.

00:21:59.860 And as I said, I kept coming back to my dad.

00:22:02.040 We talked about him a few minutes ago and how I always knew my dad loved me, but he wasn't

00:22:06.720 the kind of guy who would express that when I was a boy, that's for sure.

00:22:10.020 The first time he told me he loved me, I was 24 years old.

00:22:12.440 And I remember it vividly to this day.

00:22:15.060 I always knew through his actions, but there were certain things that my dad could never

00:22:18.740 say to me, being the stoic, being the guy who didn't show his emotions.

00:22:22.480 So there were all kinds of things we could talk about as a father and a son, but there

00:22:27.500 were also all kinds of things that were beyond the realm of all possibility to talk about.

00:22:32.660 So, you know, at that time, my early forties, I wanted and needed more.

00:22:36.440 I didn't want my dad to leave this world, whenever that might be, and me look back and

00:22:41.480 wonder what could have been in our relationship.

00:22:43.920 So at the end of that season, 2001 season, I'll never forget it.

00:22:48.200 It was Thanksgiving weekend.

00:22:49.700 I lived in DC at that point, although I was spending so much time in Baltimore.

00:22:53.300 I lived on Capitol Hill in Washington, DC.

00:22:55.640 My dad was still living in New York where we grew up and he knew I was coming up for Thanksgiving

00:23:00.120 weekend, but he didn't know what was coming with me.

00:23:02.620 And what was coming with me was a great desire to have some real intense conversation with

00:23:07.600 him, unlike we had ever had before.

00:23:09.520 So we spent hours and hours that weekend, just the two of us sitting on the couch in

00:23:13.940 his living room talking about all this stuff.

00:23:16.440 It was absolutely amazing to see the way he responded.

00:23:20.040 My dad's 83 years old now, and I'm so fortunate to still have him.

00:23:24.600 He's incredibly healthy and enjoys his life so much, but I just can't even imagine what these

00:23:29.920 years would have been like if we had never started that conversation in 2001.

00:23:34.940 So that's a conversation that has been going and growing ever since.

00:23:38.540 And it's been incredibly rich and meaningful to have that as a part of our lives and our

00:23:43.500 relationship.

00:23:44.620 Yeah.

00:23:44.780 I loved how you referenced this book, the questions to ask your father.

00:23:48.060 Because I think a lot of men, they don't really know their dads.

00:23:52.320 They don't really know anything about what they were like when they were kids.

00:23:54.960 What were their dreams?

00:23:55.860 What were their goals as young men?

00:23:58.460 What do they think about becoming a dad?

00:24:00.260 Like, you don't know that stuff.

00:24:01.580 And it'd be nice to know that stuff because you're going through that stuff yourself.

00:24:04.780 Totally agree.

00:24:05.460 And I was so fortunate.

00:24:06.700 Again, it was one of these unexpected gifts.

00:24:08.980 We were sitting in Joe's office at his church.

00:24:11.640 Back then, he was a pastor of a large church, about 4,000 members in Baltimore.

00:24:16.200 We were sitting in his office one day having one of these conversations related to his

00:24:19.920 program as I was learning more for the writing of this book.

00:24:22.500 And he took a phone call, and I started looking at the books on his bookshelf this day.

00:24:28.280 And I was so fortunate just to stumble across his book.

00:24:31.060 And when he was done on the phone, I asked him about it.

00:24:32.880 He told me about it and how he had used it with his boys.

00:24:35.380 And he said, go ahead, take it.

00:24:36.700 You know, you might enjoy it.

00:24:37.620 Check it out.

00:24:38.640 Well, I did.

00:24:39.280 I enjoyed it quite a bit.

00:24:40.280 And I ended up using that as a blueprint for my own conversations with my dad.

00:24:44.140 And it was really incredible to see not only the way that helped us along, but once

00:24:49.400 I wrote about that in the book, Season of Life, there were so many other families around

00:24:53.640 America who I would get emails and calls.

00:24:55.700 And when I would go out for speaking engagements, one of the first things I would hear from people

00:24:59.280 would be how they, too, ended up using those questions and having similar conversations

00:25:04.340 as a father and son that took people in so many wonderful directions.

00:25:08.120 So it was an incredible gift that Joe gave to me.

00:25:11.460 And then I was able to share that with other people.

00:25:13.640 So that's been a pretty special part of this as well.

00:25:16.020 Well, Jeffy, there's been a great conversation.

00:25:17.480 Where can people learn more about your work and your book?

00:25:20.660 Well, both the book, Season of Life, and then I do a lot of work still with speaking engagements

00:25:24.520 related to these topics.

00:25:25.820 And all of that information can be found at a website, jeffreymarks.org.

00:25:29.440 That's just one solid word, jeffreymarks, M-A-R-X, like x-ray.org.

00:25:35.180 And then to follow the journey, and I really came to see this as a journey, not only as a

00:25:39.600 book anymore, but all these years and all these experiences.

00:25:42.060 I try to share that with folks through the Twitter account, which is at jeffreymarks25,

00:25:47.740 jeffreymarks25.

00:25:49.660 Fantastic.

00:25:50.100 Well, Jeffrey Marks, thank you so much for your time.

00:25:51.920 It's been a pleasure.

00:25:52.860 Tremendous.

00:25:53.280 Thank you, Brett.

00:25:53.980 Enjoyed it.

00:25:54.620 My guest today was Jeffrey Marks.

00:25:55.840 He's the author of the Pulitzer Prize-winning book, Season of Life.

00:25:58.740 It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.

00:26:01.380 You can find out more information about Jeffrey's work at jeffreymarks.org.

00:26:05.480 Also, check out our show notes at aom.is slash seasonoflife, where you can find links to

00:26:10.260 resources where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:26:19.260 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:26:22.420 For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at

00:26:25.420 artofmanliness.com.

00:26:26.520 If you enjoy this show, have gotten something out of it, I'd appreciate it if you take one

00:26:29.520 minute to give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher.

00:26:31.380 That helps us out a lot.

00:26:32.360 As always, thank you for your keen support.

00:26:34.040 Until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.

The Art of Manliness - May 16, 2017

#304： The Lies of Manhood and How to Teach Young Men Its Truths

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